Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:06:12 EDT

In a message dated 7/8/2001 8:46:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
loos@-------- writes:

> QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 7/3/2001 8:57:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > loos@-------- writes:
> >
> > Salvete Citizens of Rome.
> >
The Debate continues:

Salvete,

>
> I was effectively referring to the AD and the following destruction of
> the effort to transform NR in a multiparty democracy.
>

The destruction? How pray tell did we destroy them? We neutralized them by
using their own rhetoric against them. The people were ultimately
responsible for their defeat at the polls. The people listened and made
their choices.

> Cf below on Africa.
> Those argument were advanced exactly by the
> African leaders at the moment of independence : "We want all the same
> thing (independence) and don t need multipartism" People who said that
> include Leopold Senghor which was not a bloody dictator, unfortunately
> the state of things that were established in the 50's allowed the raise
> of some monsters like Idi Amine Dada, Bokassa or the current monsters in
> Sierra Leone. I don t think you are among the monsters, much nearer to
> L. Senghor but he committed a mistake back then and to days children's of
> Africa pay the price. Why should we commit the same mistake when we have
> a historical example?
>
Well, fine, the Senate and the Consules never said we can't have
multi-factions here in Rome. Where does it says we cannot? Our constitution
makes no mention against, and the people are free to chose who they want from
whatever faction.

> > Six months ago, the new list censor edicted a rule by which citizen
> > > could no more express themselves in the language of their choice in this
> > > public place. Effectively excluding a large number of citizens from this
> > > forum, mostly the non-US citizens which were monist opposed to her views
> > > of politics. Another widely used method of silencing opposition in
> > > multilingual countries. Do you have the courtesy in also writing in the
> various other NR languages?
>
>

We would if we had people who do not understand English. However it seems
that most people seem to understand it quite well. >
>

No, I would not, I am used, in my job, to leave in a multilingual
>

Interesting. This explains a lot.

We are able to hold multilingual congresses (ex. The Latin
> expression Chemical Theorist congress is hold in numerous languages,
> each speaker speaking its own language (with no translation), all
> questions being asked in the questioners language, sometimes with an
> English explanation if there is some understanding pb.). The current
> list policy is absolutely useless in order to voluntarily share our
> opinions.
>
Well, that is not true, if you speak English. If you do not speak English,
our curator will have things translated for you. That is the theory

>
> By censoring posts she acts like a censor.
>
Being moderated is not the same as being censored. If you were censored we
would not be having this debate right now.

> They did not leave as a result of the election and you perfectly know it.
>

They left, only after they saw the majority of the populace would not support
their programs, the election being one such indicator. Besides three have
since returned.
So they did not despair the Republic after all.

> I will therefore include you in my list of necessarily privates. In fact
> Vedius used your expressions against Formosanus in at least one post.
> "Love it or leave it" is definitively an antidemocratic attitude used
> in most right-wing dictators (as opposed to "You are mad if you don t
> love it" applied in the left-wing dictators).
>

Apollonius, had some interesting policies he wanted to put in effect, that
had nothing to do with the Roman Republic, something we are all committed to
rebuilding.
My "love it or leave it" rhetoric was just that, rhetoric. Since that time
Apollonius had
modified his stance, as I modified mine.

Several posts of mine have been censored, censorship has stopped when I
> started crossposting on the NRVizantia list. Strange isn't

More strange is the fact I'm not allowed on the Vizantia list. I wonder why?
You were not censored. Your message got bounced which is your equipment's
fault not the Curator's.

>
> Agreed, read freedom of speech not power.
>

Most dictators do not allow freedom of speech, since it allows the people to
discuss
rebellion. We have modified freedom of speech as in the topic has to do with
Rome.
After all is not that what we are about?
Old Rome never had true freedom of speech, by the way. There were certain
subjects, things and words that were taboo. So we are not too far off the
mark here.

> I hope it will always continue this way. Nevertheless the proposition
> was made.
>

And there is freedom of speech in action. She proposed, you disagreed and
talked about it.

> For all this I think the Vedii should be democratically removed from
> charge, and that Fabius Maximus should never get another magistrature.
>

Ahhh, what did I do to you? Villius, all I can say, if you understand how a
true representative democracy really works, then you'll see we are a
representative democracy. Just because we do not see the same way about the
level of the involvement, does not mean we are representative.

To sum up your complaints:
You don't like having English as a main language on the Forum list.
Sorry, I do not see that changing in the near future.

You don't like having a Curator telling posters what they are allowed to do.
We need a Curator. Past experience proves that to be correct.

You don't like the Vedii personally. I have a newsflash. They probably
don't like you
either.

Guess you are just going have to live with it and us.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Absentia
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Jul 2001 23:24:20 -0400

Salve,

Forgive the cross-postings. I shall be absent for a few days, due to not
feeling very peachy. If anyone needs to contact me, please get in touch with
my Mater, Secunda Cornelia Valeria. Thank you very much.

Vale Bene,
Aeternia
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 05:53:10 -0000

Quirites,

It doesn't matter now if curatrix censored Villius's post or if she
had never recieved it. The danger I see in this issue is that any
list curator/rix is very powerfull person and he/she could be much
more effective that our honored censors are. The posibility or even
the power to control content of mails could be easily abused. And
(I'm not trying to say that was really happend now) there is pretty
good excuse : We had never recieved it.

I agree that it is not necessary to translate everything. And I'm
sure that whoever will make a gathering in Poland will anounce it in
english.

There was some effort to establish latin as an official language in
main list and now when some citizens use it, it is unacceptable.
There are strange things between sky and ground.

Ave et Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
Paterfamilas Gens Marcia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 02:12:11 EDT

In a message dated 7/8/01 8:42:46 AM, loos@-------- writes:

>And of course this totally unrelated to NRs politics sentence is not a
>personnale attack, it comes from the curatrix.
>When I attack the curatrix for her harmfull politics here it is
>considered a personnal attack, when she makes statements about the
>private life of a citizen there is no problem.

Whoa! "You're a nazi" is a WHOLE lot different than "So-and-so doesn't speak
Polish." The first is a personal attack because she is not a nazi; she is
doing her job. The second is merely a statement of fact. Apparently,
Formosanus lives in Poland and doesn't speak Polish. That's no worse than
saying I live in California and I don't speak Spanish. (I wish I did though,
there's a really nice guy in the place where I work that doesn't speak
English and I want to talk to him.) If you can't seperate those two concepts
in your mind, you need to visit some WW2 museums, a concentration camp, an
internment camp, Hiroshima, and some other places in the world to understand
the atrocities that went on in all parts of the world then.

"nazi" is a very strong word. It's right up there with "hate" and
"genocide," not that they haven't lost a good deal of their original meanings
as well.

Tarquinia Euphemia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	martin p987654 <mp987654@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:26:11 -0700 (PDT)

Why did I receive this?

--- CmndrZil@-------- wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/8/01 8:42:46 AM,
> loos@-------- writes:
>
> >And of course this totally unrelated to NRs
> politics sentence is not a
> >personnale attack, it comes from the curatrix.
> >When I attack the curatrix for her harmfull
> politics here it is
> >considered a personnal attack, when she makes
> statements about the
> >private life of a citizen there is no problem.
>
> Whoa! "You're a nazi" is a WHOLE lot different than
> "So-and-so doesn't speak
> Polish." The first is a personal attack because she
> is not a nazi; she is
> doing her job. The second is merely a statement of
> fact. Apparently,
> Formosanus lives in Poland and doesn't speak Polish.
> That's no worse than
> saying I live in California and I don't speak
> Spanish. (I wish I did though,
> there's a really nice guy in the place where I work
> that doesn't speak
> English and I want to talk to him.) If you can't
> seperate those two concepts
> in your mind, you need to visit some WW2 museums, a
> concentration camp, an
> internment camp, Hiroshima, and some other places
> in the world to understand
> the atrocities that went on in all parts of the
> world then.
>
> "nazi" is a very strong word. It's right up there
> with "hate" and
> "genocide," not that they haven't lost a good deal
> of their original meanings
> as well.
>
> Tarquinia Euphemia
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 06:48:06 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@c...>
wrote:
> Quirites,
>
> It doesn't matter now if curatrix censored Villius's post or if she
> had never recieved it. The danger I see in this issue is that any
> list curator/rix is very powerfull person and he/she could be much
> more effective that our honored censors are. The posibility or even
> the power to control content of mails could be easily abused. And
> (I'm not trying to say that was really happend now) there is pretty
> good excuse : We had never recieved it.

Salve Gai Marci:

Yes, theoretically, any magistrate could misuse his power, if she or
she were so inclined. If *I* wanted *real power*, I would not be
sitting for too long on the internet, just my notion......not my idea
of having real power.

You are speaking generally, and I appreciate your thoughts. But when
you are accused of doing things you did not do, it is inappropriate,
because it is either lies or loose speculation.

For what it's worth, Gai, I check for pending posts daily.......even
when I am working.........I am sure I would have seen a post from
Limitanus on the day he is stating we ignored/censored his pending
post? Why am I so certain that my eyes didn't betray me? Well a) he
hadn't posted in a while, and frankly I didn't know if he was still a
citizen AND b) Priscilla was dealing with him. And for continuity in
such a sensitive situation (ie his past posts on the language issue,
and other problems), she was the only one dealing with him and
approving his posts........so when I see his name, I think "hey, leave
this matter to Priscilla as per her instructions."

I can see one of us making an error of omission, but not two of us.
We work closely, and we coordinate our efforts. she knows when I am
offline and I know when she is unavailable, for example.

Believe me, I am not a liar, and I have nothing against Limitanus per
se, but one can be accused of being a liar, a perpetrator of
totalitarian conspiracies, and powertripping for only so long, when
they finally speak out in rather crusty terms, like I did today.

We are not getting $$$ for this, and please believe me, we are trying
to do the best we can. Not for *power*, but out of service to the res
publica.

Vale
Pompeia Cornelia
Scriba Curatrix Sermonen

>
>
> I agree that it is not necessary to translate everything. And I'm
> sure that whoever will make a gathering in Poland will anounce it in
> english.
>
> There was some effort to establish latin as an official language in
> main list and now when some citizens use it, it is unacceptable.
> There are strange things between sky and ground.
>
> Ave et Vale
> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
> Paterfamilas Gens Marcia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Consular Edictum: Quaestor Reassignments
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 03:05:23 EDT

Salvete Omnes:

I respond to the Edictum by the Honored Senior Consul Flavius Vedius
Germanicus in which I was reassigned as his Quaestor and assigned to the
Curule Aedile Marius Cornelius Scipio:

I speak only for myself and would like to publicly tell my
Paterfamilias, the Illustrious Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix (with his
knowledge) "Please Pater!! I can speak for myself!!!"

I believe in the Gods and goddesses of Roma. I believe in the virtues;
both public and private. I believe in the goodness, and the devotion of our
Senate. I also believe in the goodness of the efforts and intentions of our
magistrates. Our Consuls, Censors, Curators of the Araneum and Sermonem, and
their scribes spend countless hours of their free time ensuring that our
cives have the means to participate in and foster Rominatas. I thank them,
and all the Assensi to the Provinces, and my fellow Quaestors for their
willingness to serve the Res Publica.

And, I believe that we all must work for Nova Roma to PROTECT and
NURTURE her. In effect our body politic is like a collective Luperca nursing
a swadling clothed Nova Roma.

My reassignment as Quaestor to the Senior Consul came as no surprise
to me. In offline communications with the Senior Consul I said that I would
honor his decision and I have.

And I am concerned that some in Nova Roma may be questioning my
competence as a magistrate. The communication from the Senior Consul extended
no reason for the reassignment. The reason is because I sent a document that
I worked on for the Consul to the Senate.

The Senate, who are in effect, the Board of Directors of the
Non-Profit Agency called Nova Roma are entitled to view all the records of
the staff of the Agency. Indeed they must. They must because they are among
the LEGALLY accountable agents for Nova Roma. I have served in far too many
501 (c) (3) organizations to know that ignorance of a procedure is no defense
for a non Profit Board Member.

The document itself examines ways that Nova Roma may be able to
establish a revenue stream. It is a document that I believed would PROTECT &
NURTURE Nova Roma. It was - for honorable intentions - submitted to the
Senate by me. I do not consider that an act of incompetence.

I will close now. And I thank you for your indulgence quirites. Nova
Roma Aeterna!

Respectfully,

---Secunda Cornelia Valeria, Quaestrix of Nova Roma. Propraetrix Provincia
America Medioccidentalis Superior

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Jul 2001 23:18:16 -0700

martin p987654 wrote:
>
> Why did I receive this?

Ave,

Simple, you are on the Nova Roma main list, just as you responded on the
Nova Roma main list, too. I hope that answers your question.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> --- CmndrZil@-------- wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 7/8/01 8:42:46 AM,
> > loos@-------- writes:
> >
> > >And of course this totally unrelated to NRs
> > politics sentence is not a
> > >personnale attack, it comes from the curatrix.
> > >When I attack the curatrix for her harmfull
> > politics here it is
> > >considered a personnal attack, when she makes
> > statements about the
> > >private life of a citizen there is no problem.
> >
> > Whoa! "You're a nazi" is a WHOLE lot different than
> > "So-and-so doesn't speak
> > Polish." The first is a personal attack because she
> > is not a nazi; she is
> > doing her job. The second is merely a statement of
> > fact. Apparently,
> > Formosanus lives in Poland and doesn't speak Polish.
> > That's no worse than
> > saying I live in California and I don't speak
> > Spanish. (I wish I did though,
> > there's a really nice guy in the place where I work
> > that doesn't speak
> > English and I want to talk to him.) If you can't
> > seperate those two concepts
> > in your mind, you need to visit some WW2 museums, a
> > concentration camp, an
> > internment camp, Hiroshima, and some other places
> > in the world to understand
> > the atrocities that went on in all parts of the
> > world then.
> >
> > "nazi" is a very strong word. It's right up there
> > with "hate" and
> > "genocide," not that they haven't lost a good deal
> > of their original meanings
> > as well.
> >
> > Tarquinia Euphemia
> >
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 08:20:17 -0000

Salve Pompeia Cornelia

I was spoken generaly and I was not made any accusation that you or
Limitanus or anyone else is liar. I've just make some points I felt
that had to be made.

Ave et Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 09:55:48 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, CmndrZil@a... wrote:
>
SNIP
> If you can't seperate those two concepts
> in your mind, you need to visit some WW2 museums, a concentration
camp, an
> internment camp, Hiroshima, and some other places in the world to
understand
> the atrocities that went on in all parts of the world then.
>
Salve,

Do NOT attempt to equate Hiroshima with the concetration camps!

The Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had a legitimate military
purpose, ending the war, while the concetration camps purpose was
murder of millions with NO legitimate military purpose.

The War was being fought against a Racist Expansionist Imperial
government that had commited actual atrocities like the Batan Death
March, The Rape of Nanking, and use of Humans as test subjects for
biological weapons. The Japanese government refused to surrender
despite the fact that the loss of the merchant fleet had bought the
posibility of starvation of it's citizens, and was prepared to force
an invasion that would have resulted in the loss of far more lives of
Japanese civilans than died in the Atomic Bombings.

President Truman's duty as Commander in Chief of the US military was
to end the war with as little loss of American lives as possible. Had
he failed to use the Atomic Bombs he would have been derelict in his
duty as Commander in Chief. When the exsistance of a weapon that could
have ended the war WITHOUT a 100,000 US casulities (War Department
estimate of the cost of Invading one of the four main Japanese
Islands) leaked out, Truman would have faced Impeachment for
dereliction of duty, assuming that he wasn't assassinated before he
could be placed on trail.

Those who make the mistake of trying to fight a war "humanily" often
see see the inhumane result of a prolonged war with far more deaths
and suffering on both sides. Once war has been unleashed the only
humane thing to do is end it as quickly as possible, and this often
means a brutal but decisive action.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: List Policy
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:10:12 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
SNIP
> Now, sometimes we liberals might compare some actions of some of our
> local oligarchy to Nazis, Communists, dictatorships (sensu moderno)
> or various kinds of totalitariansm. If these would be interpreted
> with *common sense* and *honesty*, everyone would admit that all
> forms of political suppression and denial of human rights (like
> freedom of speech) are *similar to* one another. Therefore, if
> Limitanus says that the actions of the curatrix are "Nazi-like", that
> would be in a sense litterally true, *assuming* that any kind of
> censorship is going on. It does NOT mean that Limitanus is saying
> that the curatrix is 100% as evil as Hitler or has had the power (or
> even the inclination) to commit real atrocities. That is very
> obviously a simply silly interpretation, and it very obviously is not
> what he meant.
>

Salve Marce Apolloni,

Comparisons are a two way street. Allthough you may not intend it,
when you try to show someone in a negative light by comparing them to
Nazis, you are at the same time showing the Nazis in a favorable light
by comparing them to mere conservative politicans. The same holds for
the Conservatives who compare liberals to Communists. Overusing these
terms for short term gain is helping to whitewash the reputations of
the two most evil policital movements of the 20th Century.

Do you want people to look on Nazis as conservatives that went a
little too far? To consider Communists as just ultra liberals? That is
in fact what you are doing, causing confusion in people's minds by mis
applying these terms.

I would suggest alternative (and more accurate) terms like
Totalitarian or Caesarism rather than Nazi and Communist (Which many
rightfuly consider a personal insult)

Lets save the vile terms "Nazi" and "Communist" for the slime that
deserve them, rather than watering them down by mis applying them.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Provincial Edicta - Patron Deities of the Australia Province and appointment of Scribe
From:	"Daniel Place" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:17:38 +0930

Salvete,

I Marcus Arcadius Pius, Propraetor of Australia hereby announce the following edicts concerning the recently discussed issue of Australia's patron deities and the appointment of a scribe;

1) The patron deities of the Australia Provincia shall henceforth be Sol Indiges and Ceres.

i) Sol Indiges is the native Roman god of the sun (as opposed to the sun deity Sol Invictus who is more eastern in origin.) Australia is famously referred to as a 'sunburnt country', and the choice of Sol Indiges as patron deity of the province is a natural one.

ii) Ceres is the goddess of agriculture, and again this choice is a natural one. Australia was dependent upon the agricultural industries established during the formation of this nation, and agriculture stills plays an important role in Australia in contemporary times.

I would like to thank all the citizens on the Australian Provincial list who contributed to the discussion on this issue.

2) Appointment of Scribe

I hereby appoint Julia Arcadia as my scribe in regard to my position as the Propraetor of Australia. I have every confidence in her and trust she will be a great help in the day to day running of the province.

valete

Marcus Arcadius Pius
Propraetor Australia

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Subject:	[novaroma] What I found this week end!
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:42:36 EDT

Salvete,

While I attened Origins Gaming Convention I ran across a vendor that
sells all sort of videos and DVDs of a historical nature. He has nine pages
of what he calls "sword,sandle and Turban" movies. its not only "talkies"
there are silents movies too! They has a nice selection of many other
types/periods of movies as well. They also handle the Ospry books and
marching / military music .
The company does appear to have a web site so here is both addresses.

www.belleandblade.com

Belle & Blade
124 Penn Avenue
Dover, New Jersey 07801
tel 973 -328-8488
fax 973 -442-0669

In service

P.A. Drusila

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 10:09:59 -0300

trog99@-------- wrote:
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> > QF--------sM--------@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > In a message dated 7/3/2001 8:57:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > loos@-------- writes:
> > >
> > > > > (snip)
> >
> > Several posts of mine have been censored, censorship has stopped
> when I
> > started crossposting on the NRVizantia list. Strange isn t it ?
>
> Pompeia Respondeo: Yes, indeed, several of your posts have been
> moderated (if you chose to exchange for use of Censor, go
> ahead).....but they not any more moderated or censored than anyone
> else's: You infarcted established list guidelines.....you were
> warned..and you chose to remain on moderated/censored status because
> you refused to compromise with what you feel are hypertotalitarianisms
> on the part of the Curatrix.
Salve,

rephrasing since you seem to want to confuse our fellow citizens:
several of my posts were not published on this list by the curatrix. I
received an official answer from the curatrix for those posts. All my
posts are "moderated".

Compromising with totalitarism is supporting it.

> Tell people ALL of the truth please and not just want you want them to
> hear. Also refrain from lies.
>
> On June 24 you posted to Vizantia complaining of Censorship. First
> this was in reference to a post which did not appear on the mainlist.
>
> Let me say this veeeeerrrrrry sloooooowly:
> WEEEE DIIIID NOOOOT RECEIIIIVE IIIIT!!! So we could not pass it on to
> the main list. We didn't secretly hide it like a couple of school
> girls.
>
> Limitane, You even implied in a subsequent email that you just might
> possibly be in error re the above, but that you were still not willing
> to give the Curatrix or myself the benefit of the doubt as to our
> willingness to take seriously our respective oaths of office in doing
> our job fairly and virtuously.........alas.........
>
> So when this was no longer an issue, you attacked Priscilla regarding
> a judgement she made regarding what she interpreted as an offensive
> sig line, after receiving counsel from other magistrates. Her
> yardstick for this was "would I expect other magistrates to put up
> with this?". To this she answered "no", and decided that your Latin
> sig line calling for the abrupt removal from office of the Vedia (both
> of them!) was totally inappropriate.
>

The vanished post contained that same line. I repeated it several times
after beginning to cross-post on NR Vizantia and now it is allowed.

Here is the latin line and translation:

Vediorum Amandandorum est.
The Vedii should be removed from charge.

The first censorship went with the commentary: This line is offensive,
all latin text should be translated and I will check the translation
before publishing it. (No english translation was provided by me at that
time).

The second time the line read as here, and the message from the curatrix
disallowing the publication referred to the first message.
Clearly the curatrix (and her scribe) was unable to read latin and didn
t trust the translation, which can be verified with any basic
dictionnary: amando means "send away, dismiss, remove", no way to put
anything "abrupt" in this word.

So I sended other posts with only the english version: they too were
censored (with an official answer of the curatrix stating that the line
must be removed not translated).
When a state decides that you can not speak for the removal/dismiss of
elected magistrates, this state is no more free and the person which
makes that decision is a censor (modern meaning).

> And, alas......you attempted to post using this sig line a few more
> times, without success and with due explanation as to why your posts
> were not being allowed. I received cc's of these warnings from
> Priscilla.
>

Exactly: those are the "several censored posts" I spoke of.

> But you are Still moderated. You didn't *stop* being moderated once
> you started posting to the Vizantia list. And you are moderated by
> choice. this isnt true.
>

I know that, all my posts are "moderated". I am not moderated by choice
I am moderated because the curatrix feels that speaking of secession is
"an immediate danger to the state" and because I refused to auto-censor
myself on this subject.

> Be sure and tell the populace that Priscilla has sent you several
> private emails in an attempt to straighten out this situation, and you
> have ignored her, unless you have written her very very recently.
>

I answered all private e-mails of her. I didn t answer the official
e-mails about the censorship of my posts. Official matter I answer
publicly either on this list or on the NRVizantia list when my posts
here are censored.

> Ahh, but why should she or I take these public attacks personally?
> After all, we are public servants, and you are entitled to abuse us,
> right? WRONG!!!
> I don't care what we are discussing, when you publicly tell lies and
> incomplete truths about myself and Priscilla, you are *SLANDERING* and
> it is ill appreciated.
>

Proof that I told a lie. I admit the possibility that one of the posts
that did not appear just vanished, she still censored several others.

> You will not hear from me again. If I were moderator, I would
> immediate remove you from this list for slander. Free speech is
> wonderful, as long as it is true. Lies are unacceptable. Slander in
> my view is flaming.
>
> Manli, have you ever considered that traffic lights are a form of
> totalitarianism?? Yes, they are........stop!........go!.....caution!!
> but alas, they are necessary.
>
> So is list moderation in Nova Roma. Our history shows that.
>
> Pompeia
>

Manlius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: List Policy
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 10:36:20 -0300

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
> SNIP
> > Now, sometimes we liberals might compare some actions of some of our
> > local oligarchy to Nazis, Communists, dictatorships (sensu moderno)
> > or various kinds of totalitariansm. If these would be interpreted
> > with *common sense* and *honesty*, everyone would admit that all
> > forms of political suppression and denial of human rights (like
> > freedom of speech) are *similar to* one another. Therefore, if
> > Limitanus says that the actions of the curatrix are "Nazi-like", that
> > would be in a sense litterally true, *assuming* that any kind of
> > censorship is going on. It does NOT mean that Limitanus is saying
> > that the curatrix is 100% as evil as Hitler or has had the power (or
> > even the inclination) to commit real atrocities. That is very
> > obviously a simply silly interpretation, and it very obviously is not
> > what he meant.
> >
>
> Salve Marce Apolloni,
>
> Comparisons are a two way street. Allthough you may not intend it,
> when you try to show someone in a negative light by comparing them to
> Nazis, you are at the same time showing the Nazis in a favorable light
> by comparing them to mere conservative politicans. The same holds for
> the Conservatives who compare liberals to Communists. Overusing these
> terms for short term gain is helping to whitewash the reputations of
> the two most evil policital movements of the 20th Century.
>
> Do you want people to look on Nazis as conservatives that went a
> little too far? To consider Communists as just ultra liberals? That is
> in fact what you are doing, causing confusion in people's minds by mis
> applying these terms.
>
> I would suggest alternative (and more accurate) terms like
> Totalitarian or Caesarism rather than Nazi and Communist (Which many
> rightfuly consider a personal insult)
>
> Lets save the vile terms "Nazi" and "Communist" for the slime that
> deserve them, rather than watering them down by mis applying them.
>

Salve,

I can only totally agree with (at least on the nazi :)).
Nobody ever called anybody of nazi.

The nazi movement was the major tragedy of last century. The atrocity
commited didn t come from nowhere, they were build step by step, it is
the duty of all persons to look at the actions of magistrates, in all
their countries in order to detect if their state is laying down the
initial foudations on which the nazis stand in order to commit their
atrocities. Same thing for stalinism etc.
In great part the people who laid those fondations did not participate
in the ultimate atrocities because they were among the first ones
eliminated/banished.
(the SAs, Trotsky, Zinoniev etc.)

What was said is the the action taken, the ideas defended by some
magistrates are similar to the ones those "evil" regimes _initially_
took/defended.

It has been asked to discuss ideas/actions not persons. It is the
actions/ideas that are totalitarian in essence because they are very
similar to the action taken by the nazis/stalinists.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:59:09 +0200

Ave Quinte Fabi et alii,

Just wanted to make a few remarks.

> > I was effectively referring to the AD and the following destruction of
> > the effort to transform NR in a multiparty democracy.
> >
>
> The destruction? How pray tell did we destroy them? We neutralized them
by
> using their own rhetoric against them. The people were ultimately
> responsible for their defeat at the polls. The people listened and made
> their choices.
>

"Neutralize" is the kind of word homeland reporters use when our soldiers
kill other soldiers, whereas, if they kill our troops, it's called
"destructions". So don't delve into euphemisms please. I disagree with what
you say, however. The AD you are talking about, namely Vado, Piscinus, Livia
and Rex, left not only out of protest against Livia's failure to be
prorogued on basis of rumours, but also because they were fed up with what
Formosanus describes as "the oligarchy" which they were part of themselves.

The AD were no failure during the elections. They only failed in the two
subsequent resignation waves, and lost terrain during the vote on some
controversial laws. During my short-lived resignation I terminated the
Dignitas Forum, effectively ending the AD. While the vote for the laws was
indeed the people's choice, the Exodus of March and the Exodus of May was
not a real consequence of the people's actions.

> > Cf below on Africa.
> > Those argument were advanced exactly by the
> > African leaders at the moment of independence : "We want all the same
> > thing (independence) and don t need multipartism" People who said that
> > include Leopold Senghor which was not a bloody dictator, unfortunately
> > the state of things that were established in the 50's allowed the raise
> > of some monsters like Idi Amine Dada, Bokassa or the current monsters in
> > Sierra Leone. I don t think you are among the monsters, much nearer to
> > L. Senghor but he committed a mistake back then and to days children's
of
> > Africa pay the price. Why should we commit the same mistake when we have
> > a historical example?
> >
> Well, fine, the Senate and the Consules never said we can't have
> multi-factions here in Rome. Where does it says we cannot? Our
constitution
> makes no mention against, and the people are free to chose who they want
from
> whatever faction.
>

Well no, we have the choice. But we fell subject to irrational mass hysteria
more than once. Some of the criticism we got was deserved, but most of it
was highly emotional rhetoric with as much content as a soapbell. And it is
usually not "the people" that reacts hysterically, it's usually some
elements among the powers that be.

(snipped)

> > They did not leave as a result of the election and you perfectly know
it.
> >
>
> They left, only after they saw the majority of the populace would not
support
> their programs, the election being one such indicator. Besides three have
> since returned.
> So they did not despair the Republic after all.
>

What programs are you talking about? I returned because I realized that
there are a lot of decent people in NR that deserve my energy and time.

> > I will therefore include you in my list of necessarily privates. In fact
> > Vedius used your expressions against Formosanus in at least one post.
> > "Love it or leave it" is definitively an antidemocratic attitude used
> > in most right-wing dictators (as opposed to "You are mad if you don t
> > love it" applied in the left-wing dictators).
> >
>
> Apollonius, had some interesting policies he wanted to put in effect, that
> had nothing to do with the Roman Republic, something we are all committed
to
> rebuilding.

The one may wonder why we have only begun reconstructing a more historically
accurate tribunate, or why patrician reforms are being met with so much
opposition, while their result would also be more historical. Saying "it
isn't Roman" is the easy way out.

(snipped)

> > Agreed, read freedom of speech not power.
> >
>
> Most dictators do not allow freedom of speech, since it allows the people
to
> discuss
> rebellion.

But when Limitanus called for secession he was moderated? And when Iasonus
Serenus posted his criticism on the Nova Roman government some time ago, he
was moderated, too. I live in a country where our former prime minister's
text lines were ones dubbed as the sound of a pig rolling in the mud on tv.
If I would send a picture on the main list of the Consular pair portrayed as
skunks, I'd get a moderation stamp on my forehead. Because it would be
classified as a personal attack.

I would rather see this list disconnected from the state, actually.

(snipped)

Valete bene,
Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:41:54 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

> The AD were no failure during the elections.

You've said this before, and I must refute it again. The AD candidates
for Censor and Consul failed. Of the two AD candidates for Praetor, only
the less radical was successful. You did manage to take both Tribuneships,
and a handful of lesser magistracies.

But the highest posts went to those candidates who were most strongly
against the AD.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:58:43 +0200

Ave Marce Octavi,

>
> > The AD were no failure during the elections.
>
> You've said this before, and I must refute it again. The AD candidates
> for Censor and Consul failed. Of the two AD candidates for Praetor, only
> the less radical was successful. You did manage to take both
Tribuneships,
> and a handful of lesser magistracies.
>
> But the highest posts went to those candidates who were most strongly
> against the AD.

While you are correct in saying that we only occupied the lesser
magistracies, and that the race for Consul and Censor failed. To say that
the other candidates were so radically opposed to us, however, would be
somewhat of an exaggeration.

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] What I found this week end!
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:33:05 -0700

Ave,

Thanks for the information, I will definaately check out the website!

I love silent movies.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

asseri@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> While I attened Origins Gaming Convention I ran across a vendor
> that
> sells all sort of videos and DVDs of a historical nature. He has nine
> pages
> of what he calls "sword,sandle and Turban" movies. its not only
> "talkies"
> there are silents movies too! They has a nice selection of many other
> types/periods of movies as well. They also handle the Ospry books and
>
> marching / military music .
> The company does appear to have a web site so here is both
> addresses.
>
> www.belleandblade.com
>
> Belle & Blade
> 124 Penn Avenue
> Dover, New Jersey 07801
> tel 973 -328-8488
> fax 973 -442-0669
>
> In service
>
> P.A. Drusila
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roma RPG Campaign...
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 20:29:33 -0000

Salvete,

I've been kicking around the idea of working on a "semi-historical"
campaign for D&D 3rd Edition set in ancient Rome (probably around
A.D. 100) and was wondering if anyone might be interested in
collaborating with me on this? If anyone is interested, please
contact me off-list at shinjikun@-------- - Gratias!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:40:39 +1200

Salve L. Sicinio Druse.

I saw no problem with Hiroshima being included in the post you answered. War is ugly, noone is totally innocent of atrocities. Civilian targets, esp. on such a huge and experimental scale can never be justified with full conscience in my opinion. I am sad that you felt the need to justify what would be considered a war crime if the 'winners' hadn't written the history. In short Hiroshima was indeed another 'brutal' deed in a brutal war, the memory of which can only serve now to remind us not to repeat it.

Pax
Domna Claudia Auspicata

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 9:55 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: list policy on languages

--- In novaroma@--------, CmndrZil@a... wrote:
>
SNIP
> If you can't seperate those two concepts
> in your mind, you need to visit some WW2 museums, a concentration
camp, an
> internment camp, Hiroshima, and some other places in the world to
understand
> the atrocities that went on in all parts of the world then.
>
Salve,

Do NOT attempt to equate Hiroshima with the concetration camps!

The Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had a legitimate military
purpose, ending the war, while the concetration camps purpose was
murder of millions with NO legitimate military purpose.

The War was being fought against a Racist Expansionist Imperial
government that had commited actual atrocities like the Batan Death
March, The Rape of Nanking, and use of Humans as test subjects for
biological weapons. The Japanese government refused to surrender
despite the fact that the loss of the merchant fleet had bought the
posibility of starvation of it's citizens, and was prepared to force
an invasion that would have resulted in the loss of far more lives of
Japanese civilans than died in the Atomic Bombings.

President Truman's duty as Commander in Chief of the US military was
to end the war with as little loss of American lives as possible. Had
he failed to use the Atomic Bombs he would have been derelict in his
duty as Commander in Chief. When the exsistance of a weapon that could
have ended the war WITHOUT a 100,000 US casulities (War Department
estimate of the cost of Invading one of the four main Japanese
Islands) leaked out, Truman would have faced Impeachment for
dereliction of duty, assuming that he wasn't assassinated before he
could be placed on trail.

Those who make the mistake of trying to fight a war "humanily" often
see see the inhumane result of a prolonged war with far more deaths
and suffering on both sides. Once war has been unleashed the only
humane thing to do is end it as quickly as possible, and this often
means a brutal but decisive action.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 13:59:26 -0700

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
>
> Ave Marce Octavi,
>
> >
> > > The AD were no failure during the elections.
> >
> > You've said this before, and I must refute it again. The AD
> candidates
> > for Censor and Consul failed. Of the two AD candidates for Praetor,
> only
> > the less radical was successful. You did manage to take both
> Tribuneships,
> > and a handful of lesser magistracies.
> >
> > But the highest posts went to those candidates who were most
> strongly
> > against the AD.
>
> While you are correct in saying that we only occupied the lesser
> magistracies, and that the race for Consul and Censor failed. To say
> that
> the other candidates were so radically opposed to us, however, would
> be
> somewhat of an exaggeration.

Ave,

I disagree, you should go back to the archieves and see just how much
discussion was going on about those candidates being affiliated with the
AD. Please lets not try to revise history, please.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 21:22:12 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@i...> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicinio Druse.
>
> I saw no problem with Hiroshima being included in the post you
answered. War is ugly, noone is totally innocent of atrocities.
Civilian targets, esp. on such a huge and experimental scale can never
be justified with full conscience in my opinion. I am sad that you
felt the need to justify what would be considered a war crime if the
'winners' hadn't written the history. In short Hiroshima was indeed
another 'brutal' deed in a brutal war, the memory of which can only
serve now to remind us not to repeat it.
>
> Pax
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
>

Salve,
Despite the fact that I have very strong personal reasons to hate the
bomb, I can not turn a blind eye to the fact that the bomb ended the
war and saved far more lives on BOTH sides than were lost in the raids.

My personal reasons are
1.) I watched my Grandfather die of radiation induced cancer after
working on the damn bomb.
2.) I HAVE been to Nagasaki, and seen the relics of the bombing first
hand.

However we are getting far offtopic now. The Bomb has little to do
with Roma. I will debate the subject on another site of your choice if
you so desire.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] In Caesar's free time
From:	"Juan Carlos" <juancarloscruz@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 19:04:44 -0000

Hello i just wanna say something about Caesar's will:

In the free time of his leisure while captured in jail Caesar
devoted himself to write poems and practice the sport. Symptoms of a strong
will and character that makes the best of every second and that never
forgets the body the receptacle of intelligence ;-)

Juan Carlos
_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:51:38 -0700 (PDT)

--- Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
<alexious@--------> wrote:
>
>
> "S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> >
> > Ave Marce Octavi,
> >
> > >
> > > > The AD were no failure during the elections.
> > >
> > > You've said this before, and I must refute it
> again. The AD
> > candidates
> > > for Censor and Consul failed. Of the two AD
> candidates for Praetor,
> > only
> > > the less radical was successful. You did manage
> to take both
> > Tribuneships,
> > > and a handful of lesser magistracies.
> > >
> > > But the highest posts went to those candidates
> who were most
> > strongly
> > > against the AD.
> >
> > While you are correct in saying that we only
> occupied the lesser
> > magistracies, and that the race for Consul and
> Censor failed. To say
> > that
> > the other candidates were so radically opposed to
> us, however, would
> > be
> > somewhat of an exaggeration.
>
> Ave,
>
> I disagree, you should go back to the archieves and
> see just how much
> discussion was going on about those candidates being
> affiliated with the
> AD. Please lets not try to revise history, please.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Ave,

Excuse me for my ignorance but can someone tell me
what AD stands for?

Vale
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] AD was: (Re: On Villius's Totalitarism)
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 22:59:26 -0000

<Snip>

> > >
> > > While you are correct in saying that we only
> > occupied the lesser
> > > magistracies, and that the race for Consul and
> > Censor failed. To say
> > > that
> > > the other candidates were so radically opposed to
> > us, however, would
> > > be
> > > somewhat of an exaggeration.
> >
> > Ave,
> >
> > I disagree, you should go back to the archieves and
> > see just how much
> > discussion was going on about those candidates being
> > affiliated with the
> > AD. Please lets not try to revise history, please.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Ave,
>
> Excuse me for my ignorance but can someone tell me
> what AD stands for?

Ave,

AD stands for Amici Dignitas. I do not think I should comment on the
specifics of the Amici Dignitas as I was a stauch opponent of them.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: List Policy
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 20:31:21 -0300