Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: re:Land fund
From:	auluscassiusagricola@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:12:17 -0000

Salve,

I have been reading with keen interest the messages on purchasing a
piece of land to call Nova Roma, so I thought I would put my tuppence
worth in. I know that the majority of the people involved with NR
are from america but where I live in Scotland we are surrounded by
small isles that would be perfect for the purposes we reqiure. I
found one at http://www.vladi-private-
islands.de/sales_islands/sites/02_holmhuip.html

It looks perfect, it's just a pity its on the wrong side of the
pond. I also think that some sort of commitee should be formed to
make sure that all the good ideas being discussed are not lost, and
to put together some sort of plan regarding funding, legal issues,
and all the other little details that go into purchasing an island or
a large plot of land, (something that you don't do very often :-), I
would gladly be involved in something like that.

Yours- Aulus Cassius Agricola

--- In novaroma@--------, gkbagne@h... wrote:
> from Lepella, to all Salvete!
>
> A friend of mine is on the board of directors for the land fund
for
> the SCA kingdom of the West and perhaps some of their experiences
> could help guide us. They have set up their land fund as a
separtate
> non-profit organization from any SCA connections to limit any loss
> from legal liability. If someone gets a judgement against the SCA
> they can't put a lien on the property, nor can the SCA funds be
> attached if someone gets hurt on the land.
> Not that they have land yet. They have been searching for a good
> property for about 5 years. The properties they have seen has been
> too hilly for camping and parking or too dry (irrigation runs
$20,000
> an acre in CA)or too inaccesable for anything without 4-wheel drive
> or not zoned recreational or the neighbors have objected to a zone
> change or the fire marshal has objected to a zone change because
the
> rural road couldn't handle several hundred people fleeing a brush
> fire or the grass was lush because it flooded every spring. In
other
> words, there was a good reason this land was unused and inexpensive.
> Might I suggest that perhaps we start small with land(s)of an
acre
> or less for temples and meetings close to where there's a largish
> population of Nova Romans.
> Be Well! (imperative)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AD was: (Re: On Villius's Totalitarism)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 21:05:56 -0500

Salvete

> AD stands for Amici Dignitas.

Close. It's actually Amici Dignitatis. Sulla's version is the 'dignity
of a friend', whereas the correct version is the 'friends of dignity'.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious."
-Chateaubriand

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: re:Land fund
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:00:39 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, auluscassiusagricola@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> I have been reading with keen interest the messages on purchasing a
> piece of land to call Nova Roma, so I thought I would put my
tuppence
> worth in. I know that the majority of the people involved with NR
> are from america but where I live in Scotland we are surrounded by
> small isles that would be perfect for the purposes we reqiure. I
> found one at http://www.vladi-private-
> islands.de/sales_islands/sites/02_holmhuip.html
>
> It looks perfect, it's just a pity its on the wrong side of the
> pond.
>
> (snip)

Salve Aulus Cassius:

Thank you for the link. Scotland is indeed beautiful. And please do
not feel you are on the *wrong* side of the pond :) You are just on
the *other* side of the pond. There are many citizens from Europe,
and a few from the British Isles, Scandinavia...we are all over!

Check out the Album Civica at www.novaroma.org for names of citizens
and their provincia, just to familiarize yourself with info on our
citizens.

Thank you for the link, Amulus

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
>
> --- (snip)
> > Be Well! (imperative)


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: re:Land fund
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:03:41 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, auluscassiusagricola@-------- wrote:

Salve Aulus: Just to note, this link is not working.

Vale,
Pompeia
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > I have been reading with keen interest the messages on purchasing
a
> > piece of land to call Nova Roma, so I thought I would put my
> tuppence
> > worth in. I know that the majority of the people involved with NR
> > are from america but where I live in Scotland we are surrounded by
> > small isles that would be perfect for the purposes we reqiure. I
> > found one at http://www.vladi-private-
> > islands.de/sales_islands/sites/02_holmhuip.html
> >
> > It looks perfect, it's just a pity its on the wrong side of the
> > pond.
> >
> > (snip)
>
> Salve Aulus Cassius:
>
> Thank you for the link. Scotland is indeed beautiful. And please
do
> not feel you are on the *wrong* side of the pond :) You are just on
> the *other* side of the pond. There are many citizens from Europe,
> and a few from the British Isles, Scandinavia...we are all over!
>
> Check out the Album Civica at www.novaroma.org for names of citizens
> and their provincia, just to familiarize yourself with info on our
> citizens.
>
> Thank you for the link, Amulus
>
> Bene vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia
> >
> > --- (snip)
> > > Be Well! (imperative)

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Subject:	[novaroma] AD was: (Re: On Villius's Totalitarism)
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:15:10 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Fortunatus <labienus@t...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > AD stands for Amici Dignitas.
>
> Close. It's actually Amici Dignitatis. Sulla's version is
the 'dignity
> of a friend', whereas the correct version is the 'friends of
dignity'.

Ave,

Thank you for the correction, Senator. At least I was close! <g>

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Sextus Apollonius reply
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:50:33 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/2001 5:18:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

Sextus Apollonius Salve

>> "Neutralize" is the kind of word homeland reporters use when our soldiers
> kill other soldiers, whereas, if they kill our troops, it's called
> "destruction." So don't delve into euphemisms please. <<
>

Sorry Apollonius. Neutralize in English means "make harmless."

>>> <<

But of course. History and interpretation is done by the victors. Since you
were
on the other side, we all would be interested in how you perceived things.

>>The AD you are talking about, namely Vado, Piscinus, Livia
> and Rex, left not only out of protest against Livia's failure to be
> prorogued on basis of rumors, but also because they were fed up with what
> Formosanus describes as "the oligarchy" which they were part of themselves.
> <<

Point of order
Propraetor Livia Marcia Cornelia was not prorogued because your faction did
not vote for it.

Senator Moravius Vado was 12 hours late with his vote, and Senator Marcius
Rex never voted. Had either vote been counted she would still have her
magistracy, we all would be one happy family, except for Moravius Piscinus.

> >>The AD were no failure during the elections. They only failed in the two
> subsequent resignation waves, and lost terrain during the vote on some
> controversial laws. During my short-lived resignation I terminated the
> Dignitas Forum, effectively ending the AD. While the vote for the laws was
> indeed the people's choice, the Exodus of March and the Exodus of May was
> not a real consequence of the people's actions.
> <<
> >
I wondered about that. It appeared that Marcius' failure was the straw that
broke the
camel's back. But I really believe and it appears when looks with hind
sight, that the people's failure to elect Moravius Consul, and only your
moderate gained the Praetorship, that people did not accept the AD message.
Yes, you carried the both Tribunal offices but one victor was more rational
and honorable then the other. And the other candidate missed a tie by a
single vote.

>>Well, no, we have the choice. But we fell subject to irrational mass
hysteria
> more than once. Some of the criticism we got was deserved, but most of it
> was highly emotional rhetoric with as much content as a soap bubble. And it
> is
> usually not "the people" that reacts hysterically, it's usually some
> elements among the powers that be.
> <<

You are right I did take it personally. But you made it personal with your
faction's rhetoric. And your manifesto left us all very little wiggle room.
You told the people
"us or them." Of course we felt threatened. Who wouldn't?

> >>What programs are you talking about? I returned because I realized that
> there are a lot of decent people in NR that deserve my energy and time.
> <<

Again Sextus, forgive me, in English a "program" means a political design, or
a political adjustment. And you are right. They are some very good people
here in Nova Roma that do indeed deserve your energy and time.
>
> The one may wonder why we have only begun reconstructing a more historically
> accurate tribunate, or why patrician reforms are being met with so much
> opposition, while their result would also be more historical. Saying "it
> isn't Roman" is the easy way out.
>

The senior Tribune and I discussed reforming the Tribunate at the start of
the year. My opinion is it will take time but reforms will occur.

What Patrician reforms? The first 30 families are Patricians, how is that
going to be changed?

>>> But when Limitanus called for secession he was moderated? And when Iasonus
> Serenus posted his criticism on the Nova Roman government some time ago, he
> was moderated, too. I live in a country where our former prime minister's
> text lines were ones dubbed as the sound of a pig rolling in the mud on tv.
> If I would send a picture on the main list of the Consular pair portrayed as
> skunks, I'd get a moderation stamp on my forehead. Because it would be
> classified as a personal attack.
> <<
I have no idea why Iasonus Serenus was moderated. I do know why Villius was
after he posted a succession suggestion.
Imagine if you will a nation where a person advocates bloody revolution.
What is to be done with such a person? Deport him? Remember everyone is
here voluntarily.
Sedition is usually considered the most terrible thing in most macro national
laws.
Why should we be any different?

>>I would rather see this list disconnected from the state, actually.<<

I say again, then don't talk politics, began another thread. Your novel is a
fine start.
But politics will always be on this list. Just like it was in the real
Forums.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] The AD
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:36:58 +0200

Salve,

> Excuse me for my ignorance but can someone tell me
> what AD stands for?
>

As has been said, the Amici Dignitatis, the Friends of Dignity. Last year,
in the beginning of December I think, we (I'm talking personally since I was
a part of them) released a semi-political statement and a connected
newsgroup. I'm not going to repost the statement, but it said that the
undersigned of it believed in the liberalisation of NR, respect for human
rights and would work towards a more democratic system that would guarantee
individual rights and freedom further than stipulated in the constitution.

While the relatively moderate statement itself, at its apex undersigned or
supported by a large dozen, passed on by without much uproar, it were the
individual statements of the undersigned afterwards that generated a lot of
debate and heat. A second time that the AD were the centre of conflict was
the attempt of the Tribunal pair to legislate through the Comitia Plebis,
that proved unworkable due some constitutional and tribunicial errors. From
that point on it went downhill, and during the Exodus of May the AD were
formally terminated.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:23:08 +0200

Salve Luci Corneli,

> Ave,
>
> I disagree, you should go back to the archieves and see just how much
> discussion was going on about those candidates being affiliated with the
> AD. Please lets not try to revise history, please.
>

I was referring to the other candidates for Consul and Censor, id est our
current Consular pair, Cassius and Vedius, and Censor Cincinnatus. Neither
of them were truly opposed to the content of our statement, but rather to
some of our personalities. And even so, our most vehement critics were not
them.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Sextus Apollonius reply
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:48:58 +0200

Salve Quinte Fabi,

> >> "Neutralize" is the kind of word homeland reporters use when our
soldiers
> > kill other soldiers, whereas, if they kill our troops, it's called
> > "destruction." So don't delve into euphemisms please. <<
> >
>
> Sorry Apollonius. Neutralize in English means "make harmless."
>

I know. "Neutraliseren" means the same in Dutch.

> >>> <<
>
> But of course. History and interpretation is done by the victors. Since
you
> were
> on the other side, we all would be interested in how you perceived things.
>

My interpretation is not so different from yours, only do you portray
yourself as a victor and me as a loser, while I prefer using less black &
white terms.

> Point of order
> Propraetor Livia Marcia Cornelia was not prorogued because your faction
did
> not vote for it.
>
> Senator Moravius Vado was 12 hours late with his vote, and Senator Marcius
> Rex never voted. Had either vote been counted she would still have her
> magistracy, we all would be one happy family, except for Moravius
Piscinus.
>

That doesn't justify the "no"-votes from the rest.

> > >>The AD were no failure during the elections. They only failed in the
two
> > subsequent resignation waves, and lost terrain during the vote on some
> > controversial laws. During my short-lived resignation I terminated the
> > Dignitas Forum, effectively ending the AD. While the vote for the laws
was
> > indeed the people's choice, the Exodus of March and the Exodus of May
was
> > not a real consequence of the people's actions.
> > <<
> > >
> I wondered about that. It appeared that Marcius' failure was the straw
that
> broke the
> camel's back. But I really believe and it appears when looks with hind
> sight, that the people's failure to elect Moravius Consul, and only your
> moderate gained the Praetorship, that people did not accept the AD
message.
> Yes, you carried the both Tribunal offices but one victor was more
rational
> and honorable then the other. And the other candidate missed a tie by a
> single vote.
>

But look at the opposition we had. Cassius and Vedius, founders of NR! And
Cincinnatus, frequently referred to as "the third founder". This has
something to do with popularity through respect rather than to accept or not
to accept a message. A homo novus similar to you would also have lost from
these three men.

(snipped)

> > The one may wonder why we have only begun reconstructing a more
historically
> > accurate tribunate, or why patrician reforms are being met with so much
> > opposition, while their result would also be more historical. Saying "it
> > isn't Roman" is the easy way out.
> >
>
> The senior Tribune and I discussed reforming the Tribunate at the start of
> the year. My opinion is it will take time but reforms will occur.
>
> What Patrician reforms? The first 30 families are Patricians, how is that
> going to be changed?
>

I thought there was talk of a patrician reform on the Vedian Baths list.

> >>> But when Limitanus called for secession he was moderated? And when
Iasonus
> > Serenus posted his criticism on the Nova Roman government some time ago,
he
> > was moderated, too. I live in a country where our former prime
minister's
> > text lines were ones dubbed as the sound of a pig rolling in the mud on
tv.
> > If I would send a picture on the main list of the Consular pair
portrayed as
> > skunks, I'd get a moderation stamp on my forehead. Because it would be
> > classified as a personal attack.
> > <<
>
> I have no idea why Iasonus Serenus was moderated. I do know why Villius
was
> after he posted a succession suggestion.
> Imagine if you will a nation where a person advocates bloody revolution.
> What is to be done with such a person? Deport him? Remember everyone is
> here voluntarily.
> Sedition is usually considered the most terrible thing in most macro
national
> laws.
> Why should we be any different?
>

I think Limitanus was not talking about a "bloody" secession. In my country,
there is a separatist party. Other politicians far from like it, but they
are not barred from speaking to the audience about their separatistic
ideals.

>
> >>I would rather see this list disconnected from the state, actually.<<
>
> I say again, then don't talk politics, began another thread. Your novel
is a
> fine start.
> But politics will always be on this list. Just like it was in the real
> Forums.
>

I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant that this forum should not be in
the state's hands. I see the various fora as tv channels. NR Announce is an
official channel, while, for example, the Sodalitas Musarum is the artistic
channel, NR Vizantia could be a provincial channel, and the Back Alley could
be the Jerry Springer show. However, since this venue, which is usually
considered to be the virtual replacement for the Forum, is the channel that
attracts most viewers, why not make it independent from the state? Id est,
the listmembers elect their own Curator or Curatrix, and do away with the
state's control over this list. It would prevent quite some conflicts.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] On Villius's Totalitarism
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:14:55 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 2:23 AM
>
> I was referring to the other candidates for Consul and Censor, id est our
> current Consular pair, Cassius and Vedius, and Censor Cincinnatus. Neither
> of them were truly opposed to the content of our statement, but rather to
> some of our personalities. And even so, our most vehement critics were not
> them.

I must suppose that my statements at the time did not accurately reflect my
feelings concerning the platform of the Amici Dignitatis, because I was (and
remain) absolutely opposed to its intention and details. Its effect would
have been to create a "shadow government", and to move us ever farther from
the model of Roma Antiqua towards some liberal-socialist ideal of what a
modern state should be (I am quite aware that the former AD signatores who
remain with us might disagree with that assessment).

I have no intention nor desire to revisit this (thankfully dead) issue, but
my opposition to the AD was based on its content, not the personalities of
its proponents (although the fact that some of them were personally noxious
certainly helped speed its demise).

If I had the time, it might be quite amusing to go back into the archives
and compare some of Draco's statements of eight to four months ago with his
above statement that I was not a "vehement critic" of the AD. If I wasn't,
it wasn't for lack of trying. :-)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: re:Land fund
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:17:13 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: auluscassiusagricola@--------
[mailto:auluscassiusagricola@--------]
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 8:12 PM
>
> It looks perfect, it's just a pity its on the wrong side of the
> pond.

Personally, I have no particular need to see our real-world Forum
established in North America (although I would of course not mind at all if
it could be done in New Jersey!). Our attitude should be (and is, I believe)
that no locale should be ruled out at this oh-so-early stage of the game.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] On Sextus Apollonius reply
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:27:08 -0400

Salve Draco,

<<Id est, the listmembers elect their own Curator or Curatrix, and do away
with the state's control over this list. It would prevent quite some
conflicts.>>

Not to nitpick, but the Curator *is* elected by list members. The vast
majority of list members are citizens, and therefore the ones who vote
him/her into office. The members of this List who are not citizens can
certainly join Nova Roma, become citizens, and thereby also vote for the
Curator of their choice.

As this is an official list, it only follows logically that a magistrate
would be elected to oversee its operation. We have tried unmoderated Main
List before and it was an unmitigated disaster. You *did* reference the
Jerry Springer show so I assume you know the kind of chaos I refer to when I
mention how this List was without a moderator. ;)

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	[novaroma] Broken Link For Scottish Island
From:	auluscassiusagricola@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:41:43 -0000

Salve,
Sorry the link did not work, try this one,

www.vladi-private-islands.de/sales_islands/sites/02_holmhuip.html

Vale
Aulus Cassius Agricola

- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> > --- In novaroma@--------, auluscassiusagricola@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve Aulus: Just to note, this link is not working.
>
> Vale,
> Pompeia
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > I have been reading with keen interest the messages on
purchasing
> a
> > > piece of land to call Nova Roma, so I thought I would put my
> > tuppence
> > > worth in. I know that the majority of the people involved with
NR
> > > are from america but where I live in Scotland we are surrounded
by
> > > small isles that would be perfect for the purposes we reqiure.
I
> > > found one at http://www.vladi-private-
> > > islands.de/sales_islands/sites/02_holmhuip.html
> > >
> > > It looks perfect, it's just a pity its on the wrong side of the
> > > pond.
> > >
> > > (snip)
> >
> > Salve Aulus Cassius:
> >
> > Thank you for the link. Scotland is indeed beautiful. And
please
> do
> > not feel you are on the *wrong* side of the pond :) You are just
on
> > the *other* side of the pond. There are many citizens from
Europe,
> > and a few from the British Isles, Scandinavia...we are all over!
> >
> > Check out the Album Civica at www.novaroma.org for names of
citizens
> > and their provincia, just to familiarize yourself with info on
our
> > citizens.
> >
> > Thank you for the link, Amulus
> >
> > Bene vale,
> > Pompeia Cornelia
> > >
> > > --- (snip)
> > > > Be Well! (imperative)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:46:50 -0000

Salve curatrix sermonis Priscilla Vedia Serena

>
. *Part* of the
> reason the Language Policy exists is due to the need of the
moderators to be
> able to read and understand the message.

1) I understand perfectly your job. However that doesn�t means that
a translation be compulsory (I insist that I am against that). In
most common cases by writing the subject of the message in both
languages is just enough. Translation should be made when
circumstances require it. I kindly request flexibility on this issue.

>Doing my job and making sure this
> List is running smoothly is *never* useless in my eyes.

2) Here you are misunderstanding my words. I still reaffirm my
previous post

>
> Interestingly enough, if a gathering or meeting were planned in
Poland, and
> the message was *only* posted in Polish so that the poster did
not "waste"
> his time, Formosanus himself would be unable to read it. He has
stated
> that, despite living there, he does not speak Polish.
>
> So, while I appreciate the point you were trying to make, I hope
you can see
> the other side of the point as well. You cannot assume that all
people
> living in Poland speak Polish, nor can you assume that every person
living
> in Spain speaks Spanish. The only reasonable thing we *can* do is
use the
> most common language available to us and offer assistance to those
who need
> it.
>

3) That DOESN�T MEAN that translation should be done ALWAYS.

Vale bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis Argentina

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] List Policy
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:00:38 -0700 (PDT)

--- JusticeCMO <justicecmo@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I refuse to be drawn into yet another course of
> debate on whether I am
> actually a Nazi or simply act like one. ;)

What ACTUALLY is a Nazi supposed to be? Other than a
group of people that overimposed their views on
others.
And subsiquently had innocent people put to death?
I think that we need a broader term.. Seeing as though
there were plenty of other's with those same
intentions that did not consider themselves nazi's.
Until one has lived through such a nightmare, I dont
beleive one can call another something of this
sort.Without speaking out of ignorrance.

Semper Fidelis, A. Corvus Septimius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: List Policy
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:36:58 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Antonius Corvus Septimius
<antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------> wrote:
>
&----------- JusticeCMO <justicecmo@--------&--------wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > I refuse to be drawn into yet another course of
> > debate on whether I am
> > actually a Nazi or simply act like one. ;)
>
> What ACTUALLY is a Nazi supposed to be? Other than a
> group of people that overimposed their views on
> others.
> And subsiquently had innocent people put to death?
> I think that we need a broader term.. Seeing as though
> there were plenty of other's with those same
> intentions that did not consider themselves nazi's.
> Until one has lived through such a nightmare, I dont
> beleive one can call another something of this
> sort.Without speaking out of ignorrance.
>
> Semper Fidelis, A. Corvus Septimius
>
Salvete,

A Nazi is a member of the National Socalist German Workers Party,
(Currently outlawed) or a member of Neo-Nazi organization that shares
the policital views of the original National Socalist Party.

A Nazi could also be considered someone who shares the policital
views of the Nazi parties, without formal membership.

These views are extreme statism, holding that indiviuals have no
rights, only duties to the state. Nazism also includes extreme
racism, that the "Aryan" race or people of northern European decent
are superior to all other peoples. Persons of the Jewish faith are
hated above all other groups. Murder is considered a viable option to
insure that the "Aryan" race remains pure.

A Nazi most certainly is NOT simply "a group of people that
overimposed their views on others". There are a great many groups
that fall into that catagory without aproaching the leval of evil
that Nazism represents.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Points of Correction (was On Sextus Apollonius reply)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

I beg your pardon for this intrusion into your conversation, but I feel
there is some need to state a few remarks:

--- QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> What Patrician reforms? The first 30 families are Patricians, how is
> that
> going to be changed?

Our actual system does not take familiae into account. It takes gentes
(or an unhistorical version of them) as the basic cell of our society.
I think the reforms are trying to solve some of the troubles caused by
this misconception, and with some luck, to bring us closer to the
historical familiar system.

<<snipped>>

> I have no idea why Iasonus Serenus was moderated. I do know why
> Villius was
> after he posted a succession suggestion.
> Imagine if you will a nation where a person advocates bloody
> revolution.
> What is to be done with such a person? Deport him? Remember
> everyone is
> here voluntarily.
> Sedition is usually considered the most terrible thing in most macro
> national
> laws.
> Why should we be any different?

It isn't in some macronations. In some parts of Europe, some political
parties openly advocate for the secession of a part of a macronation to
form a new macronation (think about the Sinn Feinn, the National
Scottish Party and the Plaid Cymru in Great Britain; Euskal Herritarrok
in Spain; several Breton and Corse nationalistic parties in France; and
so on).

In these macronations, calls for secession are not considered "the most
terrible thing"; they are considered democratically valid arguments,
even when some of these parties openly support terrorist actions.

If you are not speaking about secessionism (Limitanus' "sin") but
rather about "bloody revolution", then no Western European nation is
free from parties advocating for it, in both extremes of the political
spectrum.

>>I would rather see this list disconnected from the state, actually.<<

> I say again, then don't talk politics, began another thread. Your
> novel is a
> fine start.
> But politics will always be on this list. Just like it was in the
> real
> Forums.

The way I understand Draco's sentence, he is not advocating for a
limitation of political issues on the main list. He is calling for an
independent (from the State) control on the main list.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] State support of this list (was RE: Points of Correction (was On Sextus Apollonius reply))
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:14:15 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:46 PM
>
> The way I understand Draco's sentence, he is not advocating for a
> limitation of political issues on the main list. He is calling for an
> independent (from the State) control on the main list.

Then I suggest he start himself a new email list and encourage people to
join it. Such activities are encouraged; the wide variety of email lists
available to Nova Romans, on a wide variety of subjects or even no
particular subject, is a great blessing (just go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=nova+roma to get a listing of over
fifty such lists hosted on yahoogroups.com alone!).

However, the State is obligated, by virtue of paragraph II.B.4. of the
Constitution, to provide and support fora such as this email list and the
message board. Indeed, it is the right of the Citizens to expect such
support! To advocate that it be removed is in fact to advocate that one of
the rights of Citizens guaranteed in our Constitution be stripped away. I am
sure neither you nor Draco would support such a thing.

Perhaps, with dilligence, a new unmoderated list might indeed have more
subscribers than this one; more power to it if it does! However, this list,
maintained by the State and moderated "to maintain order and civility", will
perforce have to remain along side it, as required by our laws.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State support of this list (was RE: Points of Correction (was On Sextus Apollonius reply))
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:54:52 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve consul Germanice.

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:46 PM
> >
> > The way I understand Draco's sentence, he is not advocating for a
> > limitation of political issues on the main list. He is calling for
> an
> > independent (from the State) control on the main list.
>
> Then I suggest he start himself a new email list and encourage people
> to
> join it. Such activities are encouraged; the wide variety of email
> lists
> available to Nova Romans, on a wide variety of subjects or even no
> particular subject, is a great blessing (just go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=nova+roma to get a listing of
> over
> fifty such lists hosted on yahoogroups.com alone!).
>
> However, the State is obligated, by virtue of paragraph II.B.4. of
> the
> Constitution, to provide and support fora such as this email list and
> the
> message board. Indeed, it is the right of the Citizens to expect such
> support! To advocate that it be removed is in fact to advocate that
> one of
> the rights of Citizens guaranteed in our Constitution be stripped
> away. I am
> sure neither you nor Draco would support such a thing.

In fact, I was just trying to help Q. Fabius Maximus to avoid creating
a misunderstanding. I was not showing my support (or lack of) to
Draco's suggestion. Probably, I should have left Draco explain it
himself, but I have seen so many misunderstandings here that I wanted
to avoid this one from the very beginning.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: list policy on languages
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:03:23 -0400

Salve,

<<1) I understand perfectly your job. However that doesn�t means that a
translation be compulsory (I insist that I am against that). In most common
cases by writing the subject of the message in both languages is just
enough. Translation should be made when circumstances require it. I kindly
request flexibility on this issue.>>

With respect, Octavianus, I would like your opinion here. If posts are made
in languages that the moderator and/or scribes cannot understand, how do you
expect them to be able to do their jobs and make certain the message<s> is
neither a clear and present danger nor creating disorder and incivility?
Subject lines may <but often do not> indicate topic but not content.

I will admit that I do not follow your logic here, but I do look forward
further explanation.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	[novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	10 Jul 2001 20:50:31 -0000

The following novaroma poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:

POLL QUESTION: How would you prefer to see List
disciplinary actions handled?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Keep it as is: all actions by moderators kept confidential, 24 votes, 54.55%
- Moderators should keep warnings private but announce moderation, 8 votes, 18.18%
- All disciplinary actions should be made public, 12 votes, 27.27%

For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma

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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	10 Jul 2001 20:56:05 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

Should posts to the Main List be
required to be signed?

o Yes, posts should be signed.
o No, signatures should not matter.

To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	10 Jul 2001 20:58:26 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

Should citizens be required to use
their official Nova Roma e-mail address
for the Main List?

o Yes, official e-mail addresses should be used
o No, any e-mail can be used

To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	10 Jul 2001 21:01:06 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

Should the List Policies document be
posted on a regular basis to the Main
List?

o Yes, posted weekly
o Yes, posted monthly
o No, not posted at all

To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	10 Jul 2001 21:03:54 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

Should the number of posts an
individual may make to the Main List on
a daily basis be limited?

o Yes, no more than 4 per day
o Yes, no more than 7 per day
o No, no limits should be placed on the number of posts

To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	10 Jul 2001 21:08:16 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

Should political posts be diverted to a
list other than the Main List?

o Yes, all political posts should be diverted to another list
o Yes, with the exception of election periods
o No, no diversion of political posts should take place

To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:11:17 -0400

Salve,

As per the results of the poll regarding disciplinary measures taken
regarding this List, all disciplinary actions *will* remain private. I
sincerely thank all those who took the time to make their choices known.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1467
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:58:29 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 24 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Re: National Census - revised II
- From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
- 2. Re: Questores and Censores
- From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
- 3. Re: (unknown)
- From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
- 4. Re: Re: Our Crippled Gens System
- From: Gna ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1468
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:58:45 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 25 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Just an observation
- From: "Nick Puglia" <nickpuglia@-------->
- 2. Roman Days?
- From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
- 3. Roman Days
- From: jmath669642reng@--------
- 4. Roman Days (Continued)
- From: jmath669642reng@--------
- 5. Re: Re: Our Crippled Gens System
- From: Amulius ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1469
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:59:11 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 22 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Re: On a national census
- From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
- 2. Pre- Roman Days West
- From: "Sean Sheridan Richards" <legioix@-------->
- 3. Re: On a national census
- From: TSardonicus@--------
- 4. Re: On a national census
- From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
- 5. M/P ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1485
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 01:00:57 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 25 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Summer Solstice
- From: "Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
- 2. RE: Pleb Trib
- From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
- 3. RE: Pleb Trib
- From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
- 4. Re: Question on the Trib Plebs and recommendation
- From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
- 5 ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On Sextus Apollonius reply
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:58:38 -0300

> >>> But when Limitanus called for secession he was moderated? And when Iasonus
> > Serenus posted his criticism on the Nova Roman government some time ago, he
> > was moderated, too. I live in a country where our former prime minister's
> > text lines were ones dubbed as the sound of a pig rolling in the mud on tv.
> > If I would send a picture on the main list of the Consular pair portrayed as
> > skunks, I'd get a moderation stamp on my forehead. Because it would be
> > classified as a personal attack.
> > <<
> I have no idea why Iasonus Serenus was moderated. I do know why Villius was
> after he posted a succession suggestion.
> Imagine if you will a nation where a person advocates bloody revolution.
> What is to be done with such a person? Deport him? Remember everyone is
> here voluntarily.
> Sedition is usually considered the most terrible thing in most macro national
> laws.
alve,

this is only the case in totalitarian regimes (and it seems the USA).
Take a look north: the parti quebequois exists, and was several times in
charge of Quebec, it even proposed a plebiscite on independance.
Take a look to Europe: the Sinn Fein exists and is the second political
force in Northern Ireland, the indepmndendists won the las election in
Scotland.
The basque and catalan indenpendentist parties are extremely strong in
Spain,
well of course they were prohibited under Franco, but with
democratisation they were legalized. Draco already spoke of the flemish
independentist party. The northern ligue is in the governing coalition
in Italy. Corses and bretons have influent independentist movements in
France.

In the totalitarian regimes: the USA support the Kurdes in Irak, the
tibetans in China, kosovars in Yougoslavia. They are ready to defend
with force the secessionists of Taiwan. Seems they are two politics on
this subject in the USA: one for external use and another for internal
use.
I can t see why NR should follow the totalitarian/US internal policy.

Caveat: I am not saying the US are totalitarian I am just citing the 2
uses I know of that policy.

> Why should we be any different?
>

In order to be a free/democratic state.

Salve,

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:29:53 -0300

JusticeCMO wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> As per the results of the poll regarding disciplinary measures taken
> regarding this List, all disciplinary actions *will* remain private. I
> sincerely thank all those who took the time to make their choices known.
>
Salve,

In order to respect transparence , we must then appeal to civism of all
citizen censored by the curatrix to make her decisions public on this
list
since she won t do it herself.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1516
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:24:51 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 13 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Re: Consular Edictum: Quaestor Reassignments
- From: "Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
- 2. Re: list policy on languages
- From: loos@--------
- 3. Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
- From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
- 4. Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
- From: trog99@--------
- 5. Re: On Villius's ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1517
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:30:13 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 25 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Re: Consular Edictum: Quaestor Reassignments
- From: VMoeller@--------
- 2. Re: Re: list policy on languages
- From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
- 3. Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
- From: "Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
- 4. Re: list policy on languages
- From: "Lucius Sicin ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1518
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:30:44 +0300 (EET DST)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 4 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. AD was: (Re: On Villius's Totalitarism)
- From: "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
- 2. Re: On Sextus Apollonius reply
- From: QFabiusMaxmi@--------
- 3. Re: On Villius's Totalitarism
- From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
- 4. The AD
- From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
-
- ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Digest Number 1467
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:33:57 -0000

Ave,

I do not see any attachments here. The list does not allow for
attachments...and it hasnt had that capability in over two years.

Please repost all your posts as text so we can read them.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In novaroma@--------, "Prometheus" <fresco@f...> wrote:
> 'novaroma@--------' wrote:
> ====
> - There are 24 messages in this issue.
> -
> - Topics in this digest:
> -
> - 1. Re: National Census - revised II
> - From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@-------->
> - 2. Re: Questores and Censores
> - From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@-------->
> - 3. Re: (unknown)
> - From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@-------->
> - 4. Re: Re: Our Crippled Gens System
> - From: Gna ...'
>
>
> > Take a look to the attachment.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: On Sextus Apollonius reply
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:33:26 -0000

Salve, mi Limitane!

> alve,
>
> this is only the case in totalitarian regimes (and it seems the
USA).

>
> Caveat: I am not saying the US are totalitarian I am just citing the
2
> uses I know of that policy.

Just a minor nit here: in the U.S., there are secessionist groups
alive and well. Heck, given the grief they get from the Partido
Independentista Puertorriqueno alone, I think that the claim that the
U.S. doesn't tolerate separatist groups is a bit far-fetched. BTW,
this is really getting off-topic now...

As for moderate regimes and secessionist groups - they may tolerate
'em, but in many cases they do not like them at all. In our case, I
believe you have the sacred right to express your opinion on a given
subject - I have the equally sacred right to disagree with you. As
with many other controversies here, you will have those who hold
moderate views, those to either extreme, and perhaps one or two that
might have the correct take on things. How much do you care to bet
that those who have the correct take are those who are NOT heard?

One thing I do have to say - it's real hard to reason with people when
you let your assumptions about them drown out anything they have to
say. Calling for someone's removal while trying to talk to them makes
for a very heated and oftentimes not rational conversation. Also,
please remember (and this goes for all involved) that the written word
often fails to convey the true meaning of your words, because it lacks
tone and inflection to add the shades of meaning we are so used to in
our daily conversations. We can, and should, discuss subjects on this
list without the ad hominem attacks oftentimes applied. Hades, you
want to fight - take it to the Back Alley where it belongs (and where
you will amuse it's denizens wonderfully, I might add!).

Muito Obrigado, mi Limitane!
(Thank you very much, mi Limitane)

Optime Vale, et Iuppiter nos protegas!

Marius Cornelius Scipio

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