Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request from Scriba Curatrix Sermonen
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:18:13 -0700 (PDT)

Salve honored Propraetrix et Scriba Curatrix Sermonen,

I have read your post, and have some questions
regarding the contents and intentions therein
contained. Because our public sentiments are
sometimes misunderstood, and also due to the recent
resurrection of party factionalism, please allow me to
state that I ask you these questions as a singular and
private citizen. It would also be nice if other
citizens could provide their insight and responses as
well. A balanced and engaged exchange might help to
clarify my concerns and provide perspective as of yet
unavailable to me.

Pompeia: Since Priscilla's time is limited I shall
take the liberty of making the following "request",
pending her final judgement.

ISCP: Before I proceed any further, would it be
possible, honored Propraetrix, for you to clarify
whether this is an official opinion or "request?" The
header on your original post states that the following
is a "request from the Scriba Curatrix Sermonen." I
am assuming that since you entitled it such, you were
speaking from the authority of that position. If you
are speaking from that authority, is your missive
(pending Mistress Vedia's "final judgement") a presage
of officical policy? I understand that you probably
chose your words carefully, and your previous posts
have always been well stated and well considered
contributions to the forum. Even in your defense of
your actions vis-a-vis Limitanus you were
extraordinarily civilized. This said, I understand
that you called your missive a request, thereby
allowing for voluntary compliance, pending the
Curatrix's disposition.

Pompeia: Could we please take all theoretical
discussion of politics, ie totalitarianism, Nazis etc.
off list?

ISCP: I must ask, honored Propraetrix, why you would
ask we Novaromani to take all theoretical discussion
of politics off-list? Like our spiritual forebears,
we Novaromani are, as I know you are well aware, a
patently political bunch. Beyond that, regardless of
the topics discussed, I must ask you, as well as any
interested citizen, if this particular yahoo account
serves as our official public forum, an informal
meeting place, or some other semi-official function?
If this is the official forum of the nation of Nova
Roma, is it a forum run by the Senate, the people, or
the Curatrix exclusively? I believe it matters quite
a bit how, and the manner in which, we define the use
of this list. If this list is to be used for only
items directly pertaining to Nova Roma, what creative
function can it possibly serve? Imagine, honored
Propraetor, if the Romans of antiquity only discussed
the goings on of the City of Rome, never deviating
from that most august topic? Would Mithraism ever
have become a force in the Roman society? Would the
wonders of the Nile been an acceptable subject for
conversation? Would Caesar ever heard of Gallia
Comita? Would Cato have been able to pursue his
proto-stoicism, or Pliny been allowed to inquire into
the phenomena of volcanoes? Would the boni and the
popular party been allowed to argue their case before
the people of the Eternal City? I believe old Sulla
had many a nasty things to say about Marius, and the
Gracchi weren't always evenhanded opponents. Honored
Propraetor, I ask that you consider the ramifications
of your request. If we are to remain, in each others
electronic presence, exclusively and only Nova Romans,
we run the very real risk of discouraging all critical
thinking, innovation and healthy, necessary and wholly
human competition and comparison of ideas. I for one
am willing to be labeled a National Socialist or a
Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist nomenklatura running
dog lackey recidivist irredentist liberal fascist
capitalist lackey in exchange for genuine liberty of
speech.

Pompeia: As one list contributer put it, this is
veering off topic; unless what we are discussing is
directly related to Roman Culture and Politics and
Nova Roma dynamics herself, it is realy not relevant,
right?

ISCP: This is a seemingly common sense approach, and
I appreciate the motives that inform this tack, but I
ask, honored Propraetrix, if you have given any
consideration to the implications of such a narrow
definition of relevancy? I, and this is a personal
statement of opinion, have never, not once, in all my
life, ever found anything to be irrelevant in and of
itself. I understand that I have just drawn a very
broad net around the idea of relevancy, so please
allow me to clarify. Roman Culture, as practiced by
the ancients, only seems Roman in toto because we view
it from the vantage of centuries. To the same
practioners thereof, it was just plain life and love
and war and everything they had to deal with to get on
with the great challenge of living. There was not, at
the very Height of Roman dominion, an exclusive Roman
culture. A slave in the galleys does not have same
perspective as the Senator on the deck. I wonder,
honored Propraetrix, if the ancient Romans understood
the awesome relevancy of a baby hidden away from the
authorities?

Pompeia: Now, if it were something like gardens, this
might be different. Gardens, like politics, were part
of Rome, but flowers don't hurt anyone. But when we
start splitting hairs about the details of Nazism, and
the characteristics of same, and where,
macronationally, totalitarianisms are employed, we run
the risk of hurting people from various countries who
may feel your perceptions are not correct about
their homeland, and you may upset people by reminding
them of the terrors of Nazi rule.

ISCP: Honored Propraetrix, does a people have a right
-or the capability if no such right is recognized - to
discuss the minutuae and split ends of whatever comes
to mind? Furthermore, our Roman forebears were
remarkably adept at hurting people, and relatively
disinclined to give a titch's wit about who was
offened or not. Indeed, hasn't that been the argument
of the magistrates and hierarchy all along, that we
need thicker skin? As for perceptions, honored
Propraetrix, these cannot be the foundation of human
society. Perceptions are by the very nature of human
sensory organs and brain chemistry, subject to
interpretation. My eye is not shaped as is your eye.
My experience does not equal yours. Therefore,
humanity has learned, in the collective, to deal not
in percepts, but as Ayn Rand once wrote, in concepts.
Concepts are communicable symbologisms, i.e. they
depend upon common cause. If we begin to deal in
perceptions, especially as the basis for our
judgements of what can and cannot be said, concepts
and ideas will atrophy.

Pompeia: Just a request......if no words pertaining to
Rome or Nova Roma are present in your posts, step
back, reread your notes and ask yourself if they are
really pertinent to the dialogue of this list...a list

people join to "do the Roman thing" :)

ISCP: I wonder, honored Propraetrix, how the ancients
felt about the "Roman thing?" At the time of his
prominece, I believe when he was Pontifex Maximus,
Cicero had absolutely no clue what it was to be Roman.
To paraphrase, he wondered, in print and for all
posterity no less, about whether or not the Gods were
real, how it was for Romans to know them. He
questioned the very institutions at whose heights he
sat. And he has come to us as one of the greats of
Roman history, and indeed of all Antiquity.

Please, honored Propraetrix, allow me to again
re-iterate that I proffer my queries only as a
citizen, and with no intention of personally
attacking, embarassing or belittling you. Though it
may be apparent that I have difficulties with your
request, I hope that you will find the manner of my
presentation satisfactory at the very minimum. I have
endeavored to remain in the realm of ideas, and hope
you will recognize this for what it is worth...

Sincerely, and in gratitude,

Iasonvs Serenvs


=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

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Subject:	[novaroma] An Open Invitation
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:11:11 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

>From the Questions in the current Poll, I take it that some of you are
tired of the ammount of Politics on this list.

Well I Invite you to began threads discussing other subjects. There is
a catch to this invitation however, YOU have to start the threads.
Just setting back staring at your computer screen and wishing for a
non policitical discussion, is NOT going to make one magicaly appear.

You have to find a topic, one that some other Nova Romans find
intresting enough to talk about. It's something that you have been
free to do all along, so let's hear it.

Start a thread on some event in the history of Roma. Bring up some
questions about the Religio here instead of posting to The Religio
Romana list. Instead of just complaining about the topics that others
freely choose to discuss, bring up the topics that YOU want to discuss.

If You are NOT willing to start threads on Topics that intrest you,
then the only effect banning politics from this forum will be creating
a list that has about 20 or 30 posts a month.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Sharing the Light!
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:21:38 -0400

Salve,

<<Sorry,this post contains no politics so,reading this must have been a real
bore :)>>

LOL On the contrary, it is quite refreshing! :) My best suggestion for you
is to go right ahead and please post on Roman history right here. I am
certain you will find people interested and more than willing to discuss
things here. In fact, I would encourage *everyone* to start new topics, ask
questions, begin new threads on topics that appeal to you. Politics has
it's place, but his is a Forum for *all* of Nova Roma.

Don't be shy! Jump right in and post away!

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hi to both of you!
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:41:14 -0700 (PDT)

bsmith3121@--------

Salve,
Welcome to Nova Roma.

Caius Titinius Varus

Titus Martius Laetius

I too am very new and would like to personally welcome you. As you can see by the Main List, everyone has an opinion. Please feel free to share yours.

I was very timid about doing so at first, but as is bound to happen, buttons were pushed and passionate replies proliferated. I must say, we Nova Romans are a most passionate bunch and this is why I continue to partake of the Main List.

I breath in its bouquet, swish it around in my mouth, gargle a little, spit it out and when I find the vintage I like, I sit down and enjoy its body and multitude of notes and drink copious quantities.

Again, Welcome, and I hope that you come to love Nova Roma and its diversity as much as I have !

Vale Bene!

Maximina Octavia






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request from Scriba Curatrix Sermonen
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:28:28 -0700 (PDT)

trog99@-------- wrote:
Salvete Omnes:

Since Priscilla's time is limited I shall take the liberty of making
the following "request", pending her final judgement.

Could we please take all theoretical discussion of politics, ie
totalitarianism, Nazis etc. off list?

*Maximina: If this were Ancient Rome, would we not be discussing politics and battles of other nations in order to understand ours better?

As one list contributer put it, this is veering off topic; unless what
we are discussing is directly related to Roman Culture and Politics
and Nova Roma dynamics herself, it is realy not relevant, right?

*Maximina: Seeing that it is *Nova* Roma, are world politics not relevant? Can we obliterate the memory and historical facts of hundreds of years and pretend these things did not happen?

Now, if it were something like gardens, this might be different.
Gardens, like politics, were part of Rome, but flowers don't hurt
anyone. But when we start splitting hairs about the details of
Nazism, and the characteristics of same, and where, macronationally
,totalitarianisms are employed, we run the risk of hurting people from
various countries who may feel your perceptions are not correct about
their homeland, and you may upset people by reminding them of the
terrors of Nazi rule.

*Maximina: Is it not presumptuous to say that we might hurt someone's feelings because miscreants and evil dictators are part of the history of certain countries? Can we change the history of many countries who had this type of ruler? Nearly every country has had its share.


Just a request......if no words pertaining to Rome or Nova Roma are
present in your posts, step back, reread your notes and ask yourself
if they are really pertinent to the dialogue of this list...a list
people join to "do the Roman thing" :)

*Maximina: Is the "Roman Thing" to exclude dialogue that would act to enlighten us? If you ask a citizen what the "Roman Thing" is, wouldn't there be a multitude of answers?

Valete Optime
Pompeia Cornelia

Maximina: As I am new, would someone publish a list of what the "Roman Thing" is? ;) This would help me learn to have those guidelines.:)

I have read the Roman Virtues and The Constitution. To me these documents are the "Roman Thing", especially the following:

"Pietas 'Dutifulness', More than just religious piety; a respect for the natural order socially, politically, and religiously. Includes the ideas of patriotism and devotion to others".

"Firmitas,'Tenacity', Strength of mind. The ability to stick to one's purpose."

"Prudentia, 'Prudence', Foresight, wisdom and personal discretion."

"Vertias, 'Truthfulness', Honesty in dealing with others."

All the rest of the virtues I include even though they are not specifically stated here. Is it not the citizens of Nova Roma who decide what is Roman based on The Constitution and The Virtues?

Valete, Maximina









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Subject:	[novaroma] By Jupiter, Let Politics Live!
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:47:49 -0700 (PDT)

radams36@-------- wrote:

>
<snip>
I heartily concur - in fact, I expected a lot more of this type of
thing when I applied for citizenship. The political discussions have
their place, and I've followed them with some interest, but they
really seem to take the list over far too much for my taste
(additionally, if the 'On Valius's Totalarism' thread continues, will
someone please indulge my pedantic side and correct the heading to
'Totalitarianism'. I'd feel so much better).

> 'everybody' citizen or non-citizen alike in all its areas...
> Sorry,this post contains no politics so,reading this
must have
> been a real bore :)

Not at all! Well spoken, citizen!

Regimus Palaeologus


Salve,

Again, there are Yahoo clubs for specific interests. Seeing that Politics determined the Rise and Fall of Rome, I see them as extremely important here. Perhaps you can find a list that discusses only what *you* want to discuss.

This is a public forum and all aspects of Roman interest should be allowed here.

Politics is in every aspect of life and I pray to Jupiter that they will forever be on the Main List so that the common and not so common citizens can be a part of the political process instead of ignoring it and allowing it to run itself.

A more enlightened citizen than I, whose name I do not recall at the moment said (paraphrasing), "Do you not have a delete key on your keyboard?"

Can you not skip or delete what does not interest you? If you want to talk about something else, start a new thread you think is relevant, ask a question, do you have nothing to contribute?

Personally, I am a Religio person and I find that this list, The Main List, has it all!

Valete, Maximina


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Subject:	[novaroma] Unavailable.
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:35:32 -0700

Yesterday I made a post that I was going to be gone for an employee
appreciation trip to Magic Mountain. That has totally changed. Today
at work I was notified that my brother in law passed away in a car
accident. He was not only my brother in law, he was a very good friend
and a co-worker at Earthlink. What makes it more of a shame is that he
was younger than I am, and I will miss him a very great deal.

I will be out of town for a number of days, while I help my family and
David's family through this time.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sharing the Light!
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:51:18 EDT

In a message dated 7/11/2001 2:26:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
radams36@-------- writes:


> Avete Omnes....
> I want to thank for the newly opened polls...it is a good
> and easy say for learning the opinions of the common people who seem to
> care less for the politics but still insisting,like me, (why one wonders
> sometimes!) to follow the debates.
>
>
Salvete!
I will say this again. The reason so much politics are discussed on this
list, is because so many citizens are subscribed to it. The magistrates wish
to reach everyone to get their feedback. And citizens you do return it. The
best thing to do
would that the citizens be silent about politics, and ignore us. But that
wouldn't be
Roman now would it?

> I've been wondering recently...why don't we have a new
> list for the sole purpose of discussing our history..in all its areas..the
> current lists
> we have designed only for a single subject...and one wonders where to go
> when there is something to ask or to discuss which having no connection
> with those lists. I'm a member of some lists about the ancient Egypt and
> you can't believe the historical subjects and the areas which the people
> are discussing...Now,we have one of the most glorious histories of the
> world...and it seems like we talk about it rarely..
>
Actually when NR started out we talked about it a lot more. A lot of the old
timers
know a lot of Roman history. If you have a question, all you have to do is
ask.

And I found it not boring at all.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus



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Subject:	[novaroma] is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:33:07 EDT

If You are NOT willing to start threads on Topics that intrest you,
then the only effect banning politics from this forum will be creating
a list that has about 20 or 30 posts a month.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Salvete,
I shall take up Thread (and Needle). Is anyone working an any
projects? I mean such as clothing and dare I say domestic arts. I do also
mean all aspects of it such as research, drafting, sewing.

I just finished a hand sown project and that I was quite amazed by. It
was a pleasant challenge and very relaxing once the fabric was cut. I made a
sleeved tunica for a man and a more traditional Tunica. I unraveled strips of
fabric for the thread. that is what would have been done then. It also makes
for a perfect match. Given the fiber I had to wax the thread with bees wax to
strengthen it. For the seams i used a middle eastern seam treatment that is
like a flat felled seam. its a documented seam style from at least the
pharaohs.

Fabric was challenge I had not anticipated. I knew wool would not
generally be available this time of year. But I did expect to find linen. I
was so shocked by the lack of it at my local sources. I do have some
knowledge about fabric curtesy from the SCA so I made an educated guess on a
second fiber. I explored the muslin and really like the Osenburg cotton. It
is a course weave not unlike the spinning I have done with raw cotton. The
natural cotton color and weight is quite pleasant against the skin. So
pleasant that I had to hide it from my cats and a girl friends miniature
pincher. They all wanted to lay on it!

What did I learn? I could if need be make one of the tunicas very two
days if I did nothing else to do. That bees wax is a great to have on hand. I
think there would be more seams in Roman clothing. Artists tend to not have
wrinkles and seams in medieval art so would a stone carver in Ancient times
be any different?

I am curious about the on line sources for the various legios. it all seems
to be the same. I guess I have my next challenge.

In service

Prima Ancinna Drusila






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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Government vs People? (far too long)
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 02:22:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:

> Consul Cassius scripsit:
> I am afraid I must disagree with the statement above. I had almost
>*nothing* but problems with the content of the Statement of the
>Amici Dignitatis. I spent a good deal of time on their list
>debating their issues because of those problems. >>

Draco:
> Just a question for clarification: aren't you talking about the
first draft of our statement, which was presented to you? Due to your
suggestions and criticism, we altered that version into something
different and more presentable for the public.

Cassius respondit:
I did not agree with *either* draft of the Statement. The second
draft was indeed better worded than the first, but that does not mean
that I agreed with the overall ideas, or the method in which they
were being carried out. My being polite and trying to work with you
folks was not a sign of agreement and support... it was simply an
attempt to help solve the situation in a reasonable manner.

Draco:
> That's not what I've been talking about. Some issues here, past and
present, were far from Roman, yet showed signs of an overconservative
regime that is highly determined by personal agendas. A few quick
examples:
>
> ° The Reprimand to Marius for impersonating Cincinnatus. No,
impersonating someone is not nice, and should not be rewarded. But it
was done on April's Fools day, and not with the intent to actually
make people believe Marius was the then Consul. Yet, he got a
Senatorial Reprimand. That was probably one of the most pompous
actions the Senate ever pulled. I think it was Diocletianus who then
expressed it as "to shoot at sparrows with cannonballs". A stuntman
similar to Marius, namely Nerva, who has also made use of other
identities frequently, has been justly reprimanded for it by
> the Curatrix Sermonis, but never got an official Reprimand.

Cassius respondit:
Marius' impersonation of Cincinnatus was a situation of one Citizen
acting against another under the "guise" of humor. The situation was
NOT a simple lighthearted episode - Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was
offended for some months without recourse to deal with the situation.

You say that such actions "should not be rewarded", but in such cases
no action usually equals tacit acceptance of behavior. The reprimand,
while an official condemnation of the incident, was not the worst
thing that could have happened. I've seen Marius herself mete out
worse punishment to people - first as an official list moderator for
Nova Roma, and again while moderating her private list. Her idea
of "not rewarding" behavior was nasty personal threats and instant
banishment without recourse. Would that have been less "pompous?"


> Draco:
> ° The Name Change Edict / Law. Yes, it was voted in by the people.
But does it mean that if 60% thinks A, that B is incorrect?

Cassius respondit:
And THIS sort of thing was the "fatal flaw" in the Amici Dignitatis
platform. They tried to claim that they represented "The Sovereign
People" in opposition to the magistrates of NR. (Who, oddly enough,
are elected by the Citizens...) Yet, whenever the People disagreed
with the Amici, they instantly refused to accept the judgement of the
People as Sovereign.

As far as I can tell, this meant that they felt the People should be
Sovereign ONLY if they agreed with the ideals of the Amici. If they
did not agree, then the ideals of the Amici Digitatis should prevail
over the will of the Citizens... because it was "right". You can't
have it both ways.

> Draco:
> ° The Resignation Edict / Law: Yes, it was voted in by the people,
too.

Cassius:
See above. The Will of the People is Sovereign... unless they
disagree with you.

If you (and the Amici) were so opposed to this lex, why did none of
you ever come up with any viable alternatives? An amazing amount of
effort has been spent vocally opposing this lex... but not one of you
ever tried to work out a better solution. (Other than an open door
policy that would allow people to obtain and drop Citizenship at
will, ten times a year if they wished!)

If *I* had been that empassioned about returning Citizens, I'd have
set up a Sodalitas to welcome returning Citizens to Nova Roma, assist
them in working out any past problems, and provide ongoing support to
make sure that no new pressures/problems build up. If you really care
about such citizens, there is no reason not to reach out to them, no
matter what official lex is in place. If you create the facilities to
help, that might be just what's needed to change the lex...

> Draco:
> ° The Language Policy: This measure is presented as a form of
courtesy towards the large majority of anglophonic people on this
list.

Cassius respondit:
This is another issue that has been "opposed" to the point of
absurdity. The "Language Policy" will be OVER in a few months. The
next Curator Sermonem will put their own policies in place.
Personally, I would be *thrilled* if you or Michael Loos would
volunteer for the job. I'd vote for either or both of you in a
heartbeat. I truly believe that you deserve the honor and
responsibility.


> Draco:
> ° The Assidui and Capiti Censi: Despite the opposition from many
South Americans, and a considerable number of Europeans, this system
was also pushed through, while it has no provisions for people who
cannot pay (as opposed to will not pay). Magistrates with the heart
on the right spot, such as Octavius, have offered to pay for poorer
citizens, but these individual solutions won't work in the long run.
While it is ok for an organization to limit the possibilities of
people who won't pay, this is an organization that claims to be the
heir to a multicultural empire, and it doesn't really show in this
law.

Cassius respondit:
The issue of taxation has been discussed exhaustively for over three
years. To say it has been "pushed through" is simply absurd. Nothing
in Nova Roma has proceedeed slower, or with more agonized debate. All
arguments have been gone over in public time and time again. Though
you may disagree, it is not "wrong" for Nova Roma to charge for the
most active level of Citizenship. Membership fees are an
international standard for nonprofit organizations. I can't think of
a single organization, from the Boy Scouts to the Audubon Society,
that doesn't ask a yearly fee. The ancient Romans had several forms
of taxes - and it is perfectly historical for us to have one small
taxation fee.


> >Cassius:
> > My basic feeling was, and is, that there is no particular barrier
> > between the government of Nova Roma and the Citizens.
>

Draco:
> Is that so? While there is a significant congruence beteween the
Senate and the People qua opinion most of the time, sometimes it is
really a matter of ignoring the people's will. Livia Marcia was, as
far as I can tell, popular in her own province, and a role model as a
governor. Due to an entirely different matter she was not prorogued.
Oh, yes, her friends failed to vote in her favour. Sorry, that's a
poor excuse for the people who voted against her, and were co-
responsible for this wave of resignations that followed thereafter.

Cassius:
There's that fatal "Amici Flaw" again, Draco. It is poor logic to
accuse anyone else of "Ignoring the People's Will" when you do it
knowingly every time the people don't agree with you.

As far as Livia Marcia, yes, she was popular in her own province. She
could be likable as an individual, even though she didn't get along
with many Citizens, and had already left three Sodalitas groups in
anger over disagreements when she became Praetor.

I did not dislike Livia, but cannot consider her a "role model"
anything. As Praetor, she said she was having difficulties with Nova
Roma, and that she could not in good concience recommend Nova Roma to
others. Hardly someone to act as a "contact person" on the local
level! As Praetor, Livia also went so far as to encourage people in
her Provincia to *leave* Nova Roma. The Senate did question such
actions - but she was not interested in discussing them, nor working
to solve whatever issues she had. Even so she would have been
prorogued... but she had already decided to leave her position. She
deliberately asked her friends not to vote for her so that the Senate
would look like the "bad guys".


Draco:
Another case; everyone will remember December last year. The
> public knew I was an underage candidate, and yet 22 tribes voted in
my favour (which was quite unexp ected for me, mind you!). The
majority of the Senate however bypassed the will of the people, and I
was sent flying. More on such things in my closing note.

Cassius:
I happened to have voted *for* you, as you know. And, I can well
understand your still being angry over the situation. I think I would
be too in your shoes. Yet, was it really a surprise? When you stood
as a candidate you knew well the Senate had a Constitutional right to
not approve you. I guess you just believed it couldn't possibly
happen.


Draco:
> That's correct, but they become suspicious if they continue to be a
part of the yearly elected magistracy for four consecutive elections,
while also holding various other positions. Granted that NR lacks
volunteers when it comes down to the actual work, and this is very
frustrating. But this lack of voluntarily help may also stem from the
fact that it's always the same persons organizing everything. This is
a system that carries the seeds of oligarchy, as I have said before.
>

Cassius:
Gods below. So the people who do work to keep Nova Roma going are
responsible for others not being willing to do such work?

I have news for you, my friend. As one of the "Evil Oligarchs" I will
continue to be publically active in Nova Roma for as long as I'm a
Citizen. I couldn't care less if it's through "elected" position or
simply being an active Citizen... I simply refuse to sit on my ass
and do nothing to satisfy you or anyone else. I feel I can
contribute, so I will. That's just my nature.

If my being Consul this year is dissuading anyone else from applying
to be a Quaestor, or being active in their provincia, then it is my
opinion that person is being an idiot. If next year I go for a minor
Quaestorship because work needs to be done, and that dissuades
someone else from running for Consul - they are again being a fool.

But the idea is absurd. ALL volunteer organizations have problems
getting enough people to do productive work. The problem you lay on
the doorsteps of long-time Citizens is simply what happens everywhere
when people aren't getting paid to put in their time and effort. Most
folks prefer to take the course of least resistance and sit back and
watch.


Draco:
> Come now, there is a certain glory to being Consul, and that's not
something to be ashamed of anyway. But no benefit? How about
smacking in some extra century points? Or a Senate seat? I would say
those are quite some benefits!

Cassius:
ROFL!!! Do you really think that anyone would take on a year of work
and abuse just for a few century points? Or a chance to participate
in that forum for endless bickering that is the Senate?

> Cassius:
> > ANY of the Citizens
> > of Nova Roma can be Consul (or any other stripe of magistrate) -
so long as they stay involved over a long period of time, don't piss
off their f ellow Citizens too badly, and are willing to do the work.
>

Draco:
> And if they meet the requirements set by the leges regarding
minimum age and the establishment of the cursus honorum.

Cassius:
You may not believe this, Draco, but someday, a long, long, long time
from now... you'll be old enough to meet the minimum age
requirement. And, once you're there, you'll be able to hold
magistracies for the next sixy years if you want to keep running for
them!

>> Cassius:
> > Because of this I felt it unnecessary for a dissenting group to
form and band together around a Statement. There were other more
congenial and effective methods open as a part of the Roman system.


Draco:
> Granted that our methods were rather ineffective, to put it
euphimistically.
> But what other suggestion do you have?

Cassius:
I find this an interesting question, since at least half my posts
made to the Amici Dignitatis list were suggestions of other ways to
solve the problems you felt you had, and other ways to go about doing
what you wanted to do. Did you perhaps not read them?

In a nutshell, I felt that it was a bad thing for the Amici to have a
bunch of problems and let them fester rather than trying to solve
them in a reasonable manner. I also believed that your "Statements"
were basically a declaration that everybody else in Nova Roma sucked,
and a demand for everyone else in Nova Roma change to suit you folks.

My suggestion was that you folks try to lead by good example, and not
to declare others in Nova Roma as enemies. This can STILL be done.

>
> Draco:
> I remember that, during the Exodus of May, when people started
asking questions, the Senior Censor said "there is nothing wrong with
our Res Publica" (I don't remember the exact words, so don't
decapitate me just yet, mi Sulla). This describes the attitude of
many Senatores and Magistrates. During the Exodus of March, a large
group of competent people left Nova Roma. There was Vado, with his
knowledge of the Religio, and Greek and Latin. Or Ericius and
Piscinus, equally Religio experts. And Livia, the hard-working
governor who organized symposia and local gatherings. Or even a
> moderate like Scaevola, who had an extensive knowledge of Roman
law. Or Marcus Marcius, who had international legal experience. All
these intelligent people felt ridiculed, burned and disgusted by Nova
Roma. And they mentioned names, too. And one of those people
mentioned says: "there is nothing wrong with our Res Publica"? I'm
sorry, but that's a confirmation of what the leavers have said.
> And most of these people who left were generally liked and
appreciated, with the exception of the controversial Piscinus.

Cassius:
Let me paraphrase Sulla then: "Nova Roma is not as wrong as you seem
to think it is." Nova Roma is not perfect, but then no organization,
group or nation is. ALL organizations have people who leave... and
even if the people are much loved it is sometimes unavoidable.

Also, to be honest, it "takes two to tango". To believe that the
folks who left did not do their share of "burning and disgusting"
others is revisionist history. Anyone care to look back at
Vado's "What I learned today from Nova Roma" rant from last
December?? Much as I liked Vado and some of the others, I find that
Nova Roma has been going, and growing, quite well in spite of their
absence.


Draco:
> And now the hypocrisy will start again: the Brittanici were
embezzlers!

Cassius:
Er, they DID kind of deliberately keep money that Citizens in the UK
had intended be sent to Nova Roma. If embezzlement isn't the right
word, what is? And why would mentioning this situation be hypocracy?

Draco:
> Piscinus was an enemy of the state!

Cassius:
Was he? I hadn't heard...

Draco"
That same, narrow-minded argument to
> only see the bad things and enlarge them, was also the basic tactic
of Stalin when he exiled Trotski. For a simplified version of that I
recommend everyone to read George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Cassius:
Oddly enough, I personally felt that the Amici Dignitatis were using
such tactics. Villify the "government", and pretend you speak "for
the people". But that doesn't mean I considered you guys the same as
Stalin, or the beasties in George Orwell's "Animal Farm".

Accentuating bad things for political reasons is something done
universally, by ALL sides of ALL communites. It happened in Ancient
Rome, it happens in all the major world nations, be they democratic,
socialist, etc. I'm afraid such things are a part of human nature and
won't be leaving us soon. The best any of us can do is to try and
keep a middle course.

> Draco:
> In a closing note, let me say that I am not so simple minded not to
see the good things, and the good people, too.

Cassius:
And THIS, Draco, is one of your many good points. You're able to
disgree with folks AND still see a bigger picture. A month ago, when
Formosanus decided not to leave, I challenged him to say five good
things about Nova Roma. He didn't, because he couldn't. As long as we
can all admit that we're all just people, with bad AND good points,
we have a chance of success.


Draco:
> To the reader: thank you for sticking with me so long!

Cassius:
Yes indeed. Sorry to subject everyone to such a long discussion! :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Government vs People? (not so long)
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:54:54 EDT

In a message dated 7/11/2001 6:51:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

Draco subscript
>
> This is similar to the things Cassius expressed. But it seems that as soon
> as people try to change NR through a serious effort (read AD), the
> opposition from the majority of the powers that be is overwhelming. From the
> start, it seemed like there was no compromise possible due to the hysterical
> reactions. We have not been flawless, but it would be nice if some of our
> opponents would admit they've been wrong as well.

Salvete!
Wrong? Us? Nonsense! LOL!
You are right Apollonius, you are far from flawless. But so are we. We are
all human for the gods' sakes.
The Marian affair was unfortunate from all sides. The Senate should not
have gotten involved, however since we had no law courts someone had to pass
judgment. I thought and the majority of the Senate agreed that Marius had
gone too far in the hate campaign
against Equitius. Because that was what it was. As for the "April Fools"
joke, had it been
Saturnalia I might have understood, but "Aprils Fool Day" is not a Roman
holiday. And Marius who knew all things Roman had to know this. Also this
wasn't the first time this had happened. Nor was it the last. As for the
Senate passing judgment, we had a precedent, with Marconai, (sic) so we went
ahead and did it. However like in Judge Scallia (sic) opinion when the US
Supreme Court gave the election to the Republicans, that this would be not
used as a precedent, I feel the same way, about the Marian decision. It was
done, but it doesn't establish a precedent.
(How is that for history)

About Livia Marcia Cornelia.
As a Propraetor she took a oath. When information was leaked to her about
discussions in the Senate, instead of responding to the Senate, as she
should, she attacked the magistrates publically. That showed poor
judgement, but was not breaking her oath.
When the Praetors requested the name of the person who broke the Senate seal,
she refused claiming privilege. While that was admirable as a person, she
was not living up to her oath as a magistrate to uphold NR laws, so many
Senators refused to allow her to continue in her office. Had she received
one more vote however she would have been prorogued.
The public record will show I was one of those who voted against. My
reasons are listed in
that record.

I hope this clears up some misconceptions.
(History again.)

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Regalia
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 02:57:10 -0000

Salvete,

After Odoacer sent "momylus" to the north. Then sending
the Roman regalia to Zeno (in the East). Where did these artifacts wind
up? Did the Holy Roman Empire (Vatican) manage to get it back? Or did
the Ottomans scuttle off with them?

Semper Fidelis, A. Corvus Septimius









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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Government vs People? (not so long)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:17:29 -0500

Salvete

> About Livia Marcia Cornelia.
> Had she received one more vote however she would have been prorogued.
> The public record will show I was one of those who voted against.
> My reasons are listed in that record.

Actually, Quinte Fabi, you seem to have misremembered. You abstained,
and gave the following reasons.

"I realize this is going to upset a lot of people. However I feel that
Marcia has not gone around trying to destroy Nova Roma. She took office
at the end of my consulship, and I believe she deserves more of a
chance to show exactly what she can do in Austroccidentalis. I was
upset when she put her friends' well being above the law, but again we
do not know the complete story. And it is true that the Senate seal has
always been a tradition rather then written law. That will be rectified
shortly.

"I cannot deny her, but I don't 100% believe in her, yet. Therefore, my
vote as above."

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious."
-Chateaubriand



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Subject:	[novaroma] A discussion . .
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 03:26:13 -0000

Lucius Sicinius Drusus:

I will take up your challenge.

I have always been interested in the period encompassing the
consulships of Gaius Marius and the dictatorship of Sulla.

Although I have read many books, I would be interested in hearing
what other people think of these turbulant times in Roman history.

Was Marius really as bad as he has been painted as being? Do you
think that he was trying to take over Rome, as has been said, or was
he doing his best for Romans as he knew it?

How about Sulla?

I would be interested in hearing any thoughts by others of you out
there.

Gaia Flacca Severa




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:34:15 -0400

Salve Drusila,

Wow! I am in awe on your temerity in taking on such a task. Of course, *I*
have only ever attempted the creation of one ritual robe, and that was with
every modern convenience one could hope for. Even so, I found it quite a
challenge.

Sewing and the creation of garb is a skill I soooooooo admire and yet, try
as I might, I find I have no talent for. May I ask......did your choice of
project grow out of a more general love of sewing or did you have to school
yourself in the art?

Always impressed by the work of others in this field! I'd love to see some
pics of your work, if you wouldn't mind. In fact, if you'd like, I can have
the images uploaded into the files section of our website and you could
share them with other cives.

:) Priscilla Vedia

-----Original Message-----
From: asseri@-------- [mailto:asseri@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:33 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread


If You are NOT willing to start threads on Topics that intrest you,
then the only effect banning politics from this forum will be creating
a list that has about 20 or 30 posts a month.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Salvete,
I shall take up Thread (and Needle). Is anyone working an any
projects? I mean such as clothing and dare I say domestic arts. I do also
mean all aspects of it such as research, drafting, sewing.

I just finished a hand sown project and that I was quite amazed by.
It
was a pleasant challenge and very relaxing once the fabric was cut. I made a
sleeved tunica for a man and a more traditional Tunica. I unraveled strips
of
fabric for the thread. that is what would have been done then. It also makes
for a perfect match. Given the fiber I had to wax the thread with bees wax
to
strengthen it. For the seams i used a middle eastern seam treatment that is
like a flat felled seam. its a documented seam style from at least the
pharaohs.

Fabric was challenge I had not anticipated. I knew wool would not
generally be available this time of year. But I did expect to find linen. I
was so shocked by the lack of it at my local sources. I do have some
knowledge about fabric curtesy from the SCA so I made an educated guess on a
second fiber. I explored the muslin and really like the Osenburg cotton. It
is a course weave not unlike the spinning I have done with raw cotton. The
natural cotton color and weight is quite pleasant against the skin. So
pleasant that I had to hide it from my cats and a girl friends miniature
pincher. They all wanted to lay on it!

What did I learn? I could if need be make one of the tunicas very two
days if I did nothing else to do. That bees wax is a great to have on hand.
I
think there would be more seams in Roman clothing. Artists tend to not have
wrinkles and seams in medieval art so would a stone carver in Ancient times
be any different?

I am curious about the on line sources for the various legios. it all seems
to be the same. I guess I have my next challenge.

In service

Prima Ancinna Drusila






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Subject:	[novaroma] politics
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:14:58 -0700 (PDT)

Avete Onmes!

I have to honestly say that I disagree that politics
should be taken off of this list. One reason is that
when I joined Nova Roma I was primarily interested in
history, culture, food, non-political threads.
Because this list includes politics I have been
"forced" to read these boring political posts and have
learned much from them. If given the choice I would
have gone off-list to avoid political discussions and
missed out on my political education. Anyone can
delete what he or she doesn't want to read and all are
encouraged to discuss other issues so why eliminate
politics? It is our right and our duty as civis to
understand the government and it's inner workings.
When the Republic evolved into an Imperial government
the average citizen lost his right to any active
political involvement. We have regained that right
and should relish it and consider it our
responsibility as civis to absorb all we can so that
we can better serve Roma. I applaud the great minds
that frequent this list with boring political jargon.
They are the foundation upon which Nova Roma lays and
without them we would not be a living working nation.


Valete,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] There should be no change of the status of the Main list!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:17:59 +0200

>Salvete!
>I will say this again. The reason so much politics are discussed on this
>list, is because so many citizens are subscribed to it. The magistrates wish
>to reach everyone to get their feedback. And citizens you do return it. The
>best thing to do
>would that the citizens be silent about politics, and ignore us. But that
>wouldn't be
>Roman now would it?
>

....................................................................
........................................................

>Valete
>Q. Fabius Maximus


Salvete Omnes!

I just continue the thoughts of my Pater, as _I_ see it!

I'll make this short. ;-) The poll "instrument" is a good instrument. But
it isn't the voice of the People. The Comitia is! I worry a bit what will
happen if the latest poll will say that the political issues shall be
"exiled" to a separate list.

I is my stand-point that ALL (not yelling) issues should be discussed on
the "Main list", including politics. This list is the Forum and there all
issues are to be discussed. Before when the polls have said yes, the
Curatrix Sermo have said yes and when the polls have said no, the Curatrix
Sermo have said yes. This poll is, as I see it, of a different magnitude.

I hope that You, my fellow citizens, can see why I worry. If You are more
interested of other issues than politics we in Nova Roma have a huge amount
of lists/"Sodalitates"(?), join one of those or create a new one! But don't
destroy this Forum. If the People are lead away from this main list I fear
that all decisions of Nova Roma will be made by a elitistic few, with no
insight from the "masses".

Of course some of the discussions "veer" away a bit and sometimes they
don't seem to be about Rome at all. But as have been better said by others,
our forefathers (and -mothers) did discuss just about anything that came up
during their life-time. As we do!

Concerning this issue I state my opinion that this issue can't just be
decided by a simple poll. If the praxis of this list shall be altered it is
my (personal) opinion and _interpretation_ that it must be decided by a
comitia decision. As I see it, it is within the "the spirit" if not "the
letter of" the "Constitution" to have a list, the main list, where ALL (not
yelling) issues can be discussed. I hereby ask the Tribunes (even if I am a
patrician) to stop any changes of the status of this list by their
intercessio, if need be!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unavailable.
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:22:21 +0200

>Yesterday I made a post that I was going to be gone for an employee
>appreciation trip to Magic Mountain. That has totally changed. Today
>at work I was notified that my brother in law passed away in a car
>accident. He was not only my brother in law, he was a very good friend
>and a co-worker at Earthlink. What makes it more of a shame is that he
>was younger than I am, and I will miss him a very great deal.
>
>I will be out of town for a number of days, while I help my family and
>David's family through this time.
>
>Vale,
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Salve Illustrus Senator, Censor and Fellowcitizen!

We do not always agree, but in times like these, I will stand by You in
sympathy and friendship! You and yours will be in my thoughts!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Regalia
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:15:30 EDT

In a message dated 7/11/2001 11:12:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- writes:

> Then sending
> the Roman regalia to Zeno (in the East). Where did these artifacts wind
> up?
Salvete!
They ended up in Constantinople where they disappeared in the sack, that
followed the fourth crusade.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:19:35 EDT

In a message dated 7/11/2001 11:16:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
justicecmo@-------- writes:

> I am curious about the on line sources for the various legios. it all seems
> to be the same. I guess I have my next challenge.
>
Salvete
On line sources for dress? Or history? And it is legiones. I have several
sources for Roman style stitching, I'll dig them up.
Valete.
Q. Fabius Maximus



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Subject:	[novaroma] Website problems/coolness
From:	Ryan <c_pontius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:41:09 -0700

Hello there.. I have not written to the mailing list for quite some time
and I hope you are all doing well.

Every time i visit the web site, I find that I have trouble finding what
i want to know. This is a problem... and so I would like to offer a
solution. I am willing to work with anyone who does the web site so
that we can increase it's efficiency. When i first joined Nova Roman i
made a new design for the site. New colors and new layout. That design
has now been lost, but I have the basic idea still in my brain.

I hope that all citizens of Nova Roman will let me know your feelings
regarding the web site.. any troubles you have or anything you really
like about the site. At this time **I do not have any say regarding
what goes on the site**, but I am willing to compile this information
for the decision makers to take the strain off them :)

by the way, who does the web site?? I couldn't find any links to send
email... let me know!

-Gaius




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A discussion . .
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:25:25 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus:
>
> I will take up your challenge.
>
> I have always been interested in the period encompassing the
> consulships of Gaius Marius and the dictatorship of Sulla.
>
> Although I have read many books, I would be interested in hearing
> what other people think of these turbulant times in Roman history.
>
> Was Marius really as bad as he has been painted as being? Do you
> think that he was trying to take over Rome, as has been said, or was
> he doing his best for Romans as he knew it?
>
> How about Sulla?
>
> I would be interested in hearing any thoughts by others of you out
> there.
>
> Gaia Flacca Severa

The Important thing to remember about Gaius Marius is he died before
he wrote his memoirs (as far as we know) and most of his suporters
died in the Sullan purges, while Sulla set his story down on paper for
the direction (or misdirection) of future historians. Then as now the
winning side got to write the history books.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that any Roman politican was "doing
his best for Romans as he knew it" The politicans of Roma Antiquita
were intrested in thier own gain, and didn't play lip service to
serving the people. A Roman might reply that he was running for Consul
because it was his duty to his family to ennoble them by becoming a
novus homo Consul, and that was enough reason to run.

Marius was intrested in doing what was best for Marius. He was one of
Roma's great Generals, and as long as he remained away at the head of
an Army, the Centuries kept the very popular General in office. This
alone is enough to show that he wasn't the monster he was portrayed
as. However like many Generals since he proved to lack the skills to
lead a civilan government, and the last Consulship in the string of
five was a disaster.

When Marius made his grab for power by stripping Sulla of his command,
I suspect that he no longer had the mental ability that he had shown
as the great General. Sulla had served under him, and there was no
excuse for him underestimating Sulla so badly.

IMHO it was Marius's attempts to use the Plebian assembly to strip the
Senate of it's powers that led to the destruction of the Republic.
Once he forced the Consul to bring the Army to the defense of the
powers of the Senate, the Republic was doomed. Sulla's march on Roma
open the way for later instances of Generals dominating Roma with
thier Army.

Had Sulla failed to take the drastic action of marching on Roma, The
Comitia would have no longer been restrained by the Senate, so it just
would have been a matter of time until a Tribune used continual
election to assume the powers that the Princeps later had. (The
pattern of the tyrants in Athens)

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] About Lists and a bit history!
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:19:41 +0300

Avete....
I say let the Main List remain as the Main List...after all we need a
place to discuss
our political affairs...and I support these discussions as long as they
fit to the frame
of civility.
But again,I say,a seperate list created for every matter outside of
the politics would
have been better.So that there would be a clear distinction for the
citizens who are
and who are not interested with the political side of Nova Roma!The
current lists we
have are dealing with only a single aspect of Rome..So,where should a
cive can go who
lets say has something to talk about the daily life...or about the
customs we have.The
MainList can be too busy sometimes and the voices of the new cives or
the non-citizens
can get lost among the tumulut of the fiery political debates.And since
we have some
really well informed people about our history (I'm sorry ,I'm not one
of them)..why
don't they take the lead and talk?It would be great to learn a thing or
two from the
wise people maybe sitting among us quietly all the time...I'm sure that
this kind of
debates would increase the participation and answer to a need felt by
the cives
who don't want to be a part of the politics but who joined us because of
the
wish of learning and talking about Roman history!
Another non-political post but I'm glad to learn there are
some people who want
to share the Light as much as I do!
Hmmmm....Marius...Sulla...I should re-read some of my books!
Was Sulla a vain and ambitious man who painted the streets
and the Senate of
Rome with
blood?Or was he -as I believe- a man who was needed desperately?Hard
times breed
hard men...to accomplish hard tasks!

Valete....






Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
Civis Novae Romae

* Sapiens dominabitur astris ! *




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Subject:	[novaroma] Welcome Honorable Quintus Minicius Ferveo!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:17:25 +0200

Salve Honorable Quintus Minicius Ferveo!

I just want to welcome You to Nova Roma and to the Provincia of Thule. As
the Governor of tHule (the Nordic countries) I wish welcome to our beautifu
province and hope that You will be active among us. To find your way in the
province, please feel free to contact me on the above adress and to join
the Thule provincial list at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join

I also recommend that You visit the homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia
Thule at:
http://thule.novaroma.org/

hoping to hear from You!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80



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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest N0 1521 Attention all New Zealand Citizens
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:33:54 -0400

Salvete,

I enthusiastically support our Kiwi Cives :-) in their efforts. I have
come to expect nothing but the best from our friends 'down under'!

Bonam Fortunam!

Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus


Message: 21
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:37:37 +1200
From: "Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)"
<mark.devry@-------->
Subject: Attention all New Zealand Citizens

Salvete citizens,

As the Rogator, Domna Claudia Auspicata, so kindly pointed out to
me, New Zealand now has 5 citizens listed in the Nova Roma citizen album.
We would like to get in contact with these citizens to (a) try to
get to know each other, (b) try to arrange meeting each other and (c)
discuss the possibility of a seperate New Zealand province.
If you are interested, could you please email me to either this
address, or to thefool@--------

I look forward to hearing from you.

Vale,
Marcus Sentius Accipiter
Centurian, Leg II Aug (NZ)
Citizen, Nova Roma







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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs People? (far too long)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:12:16 +0200

Salvete Censor Sulla Consul Cassique,

As usual, I will address replies in a larger reply.


Sulla dixit:

(first off, my condolences -- I may not be your best friend, but I wish you
strength)

> > Come now, don't be so Official. Truth does matter, but it's like
> > talking
> > about how much water fits in a bottle while the other person keeps
> > saying
> > that the glass is transparent. It's got nothing to do with the issue
> > at
> > hand.
>
> Sulla: Why not be so official. The truth is the truth. Lets not
> cloud
> the facts to what is accurate. You trying to rationalize it does not
> make it less truthful does it?
>

DRACO: To officialize something is often a rationalization in itself. I
think this thread has been thoroughly addressed by Fortunatus.

(snipped)

> > > Sulla: There is quite a difference between satire and
> impersonation
> > > with the motive to ridicule and defame. It seems unfortunate to
> me
> > that
> > > you just still do not see the difference. I don't know if you
> are a
> > > white knight crusading for PC.....it seems at times you are.
> > >
> >
> > Marius' intention was exactly the same: to ridicule and defame.
>
> Sulla: Marius took Cincinnatus's handle and used it to impersonate
> him. In my honest opinion that goes beyond the realm of satire. She
> did it more than once as well. The potential repercussions for such
> action had to be dealt with in an official capacity. Again, lets not
> rationalize it but look at the facts. She lied, she said originally
> that she did it on April Fools. Even you stated in your first email
> that she did it once...I corrected you, and you accepted the
> correction. Now lets not go backwards please.
>

DRACO: What did he lie about? I'm not certain what you're talking about
here? I'm not going backwards. If you want to stick the term impersonation
(which is usually used in espionage affairs or other political conflicts),
then I could say Nerva impersonated Apollo! Is that not blasphemy? It could
be interpreted as a double offence (impersonation and blasphemy), but after
the initial angry reflex, we went on with usual business. Being a
semi-official representant of Apollo as the head of the Sodalitas Musarum,
and being a member of the gens Apollonia, that was ridiculed earlier by
"Deformosanus" I took nowhere near as much offence as some people took for
Marius' impersonation. You are using terms to make things seem heavier and
more official than they are. That's rationalizing.

(snipped)

> > Percentages have a tendency to seem impressive, but we are talking
> > about
> > __three__ people here, mi Sulla. Besides, you seem to be admitting
> > here that
> > the Edict was promulgated for Marius, which confirms my former
> point.
>
> I stand by the previous paragraph. The need for the edict was
> prompted
> by the contiunal effort of Maria to achieve her goal. If she accepted
> the decision by the Censors Flavius Vedius and Decius Iunius this
> edict
> would not have needed to be created in the first place. The
> arguements
> last year would never have occurred. Your pater and other members of
> the AD calling me a Nazi and Tyrant would not have occurred. The
> compromise edict by Censor C. Marius Merullus and myself would not
> have
> been created. The eventual lex being promulgated by the People would
> not have been needed. All of this happened because Maria decided to
> press the issue. So if that is what you mean. Then yes I agree.
>

DRACO: Ah, and I suppose it's Marius' fault too that he wants his name
changed according to his spiritual gender? Why an edict in the first place,
instead of dealing with the request privately. One citizen requesting a
somewhat special name change, and all this fuss about it. I could and can
hardly believe it.

(snipped)

> Sulla: If I was mugged in the back alley, I would appeal to both the
> Roman Praetors and if the crime ocurred in the United States as well,
> I
> would appeal to the proper authorities.

The name back alley was meant as a pun, but I did mean an actual back alley.

> The issue is not just about
> benefit, Sextus Apollonius. Its about civic virtue and civic pride.
> One does not serve in the military for benefit. One does it for civic
> and community reasons. And, as for choosing one citizenship over the
> other than isnt the point, nor is it a factor. One can be a citizen
> of
> mulitple countries.
>

DRACO: It is a factor. You're saying that I value my Belgian citizenship
more than my Roman, and I'm trying to explain that this is due to the
undeniable advantages and history connected to the former, and you would
make the same choice, if you were forced to choose. Therefore, saying that I
don't think very highly of my Roman citizenship based on my arguments is a
false accusation, as the same line of reasoning appearently applies to you.

(snipped)

> > That seems like emotional blackmail to me. "I will do A if you will
> do
> > B".
> > Whether she gave up the "traitor" or not had nothing to do with
> > provincial
> > tasks.
>
> Sulla: It should have never BEEN an issue in the first place which is
> my point. One should have a loyalty to the State, espeically when one
> has been given responsiblity by the state.
>

DRACO: Reading the above, I am not surprised that some people think of you
as a totalitarian. I think loyalty to your personal principles are more
important than loyalty to an abstract moloch like "the state".

> > Then I'm waiting for our first compromise! <g>
>
> Sulla: Check the archieves, you will see just how flexible I have
> been. Again, I think that was a factor the People saw when they voted
> on the Lex I have written.
>

DRACO: It's fairly easy to portray yourself as benevolent when you are in a
power position. Plus, most presented legislation is voted in anyway, whether
it'd be about topic X or Y.. I think most people think "will it affect me in
a bad way?" and then vote. The majority of active citizens will never deal
with a name change, a resignation or tax problems. That's why they vote for
it, I think. A considerable minority, who is either affected in a bad way,
thought a little longer about the downside of the legislation, or is simply
a compassionate human being, will vote against.

(snipped)

> Sulla: The inability to compromise was specifically due to the
> rhetoric
> that M. Apollonius. If you are going to start proclaiming blame for
> emotional response go back to the root of the cause please. Once
> again, I cannot stress the importance of reading the archieves.
>

DRACO: Especially when processing applications of returning citizens, I
might add on a sarcastic note.

(snipped)

> > How much was "stolen"?
>
> Sulla: I believe it was near about $500.00 US or about 35% of the
> Treasury, but that is only approximate.
>

DRACO: 500$. That's something.

> Was a communication line ever opened with Vado
> > or
> > Bicurratus?
>
> Sulla: Yes, but I cannot comment on that.
>

DRACO: Why not?

> What did really happen with the money after its
> > disappearance?
>
> Sulla: You are friends with Vado, why dont you contact him?
>

DRACO: It's been a long time since I talked to him. And if you don't know
what happened with the money, yet claim to have a communication with Vado
and/or Bicurratus, I wonder what you have been talking about!

(snipped)

> Sulla: It matters not to me if people judge me by when I lurked on
> the Senate message board. People should judge me by my actions. I
> have no problem with that at all. Actions speak louder than words
> anyway, IMHO.
>

DRACO: Agreed. But then you shouldn't be so upset with Formosanus'
rhetoric -- they are only words, nonne?

(snipped)

> > The Religio Romana is not a very moralizing religion. The Romans
> used
> > philosophy for their ethical systems, usually.
>
> Sulla: How convinent to rationalize the Religio. This is going to
> obviously be a problem that maybe our religio officers must deal
> with. Ethical systems are something vital in, I believe every
> faith. If that is not the case with the Religio, then we will have
> some serious problems. Ethics is and should be very important. For
> what does it mean when a magistrate takes an Oath to the Gods he/she
> beleives in...and then violates that with with no concern?
>

DRACO: Romans had no problem with rationalizing. In fact, among
intellectuals stoicism, with a central keyword like Ratio, was very popular.
Their relationship with the gods was often more of a rational order than a
mystical one. Most mystery cults came from the east anyway. Many times, the
Romans did things accordig the "do ut des" (I give so you would give). In
return for an offering, or the erection of an altar, they requested a
special favour from the gods. Advantage, or in the mystery cults, a deeper
understanding of life, was more important than the ethos, and even that one
was mainly based on a strong sense for Ratio.



Consul Cassius dixit:

(snipped)

> Draco:
> > That's not what I've been talking about. Some issues here, past and
> present, were far from Roman, yet showed signs of an overconservative
> regime that is highly determined by personal agendas. A few quick
> examples:
> >
> > ° The Reprimand to Marius for impersonating Cincinnatus. No,
> impersonating someone is not nice, and should not be rewarded. But it
> was done on April's Fools day, and not with the intent to actually
> make people believe Marius was the then Consul. Yet, he got a
> Senatorial Reprimand. That was probably one of the most pompous
> actions the Senate ever pulled. I think it was Diocletianus who then
> expressed it as "to shoot at sparrows with cannonballs". A stuntman
> similar to Marius, namely Nerva, who has also made use of other
> identities frequently, has been justly reprimanded for it by
> > the Curatrix Sermonis, but never got an official Reprimand.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> Marius' impersonation of Cincinnatus was a situation of one Citizen
> acting against another under the "guise" of humor. The situation was
> NOT a simple lighthearted episode - Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was
> offended for some months without recourse to deal with the situation.
>

DRACO: I could say the same about Deformosanus, or Apollo & Co, or being
portrayed as a crossdresser. Nerva could equally say the same for my
portayal of him as a nazi or a cold-blooded killer in my sf story, or my
much regretted brawl in the Back Alley. Yet, Nerva and I were able to make
peace afterwards. Marius is not the perfect human being, but neither is
Cincinnatus. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in pure innocence.

> You say that such actions "should not be rewarded", but in such cases
> no action usually equals tacit acceptance of behavior. The reprimand,
> while an official condemnation of the incident, was not the worst
> thing that could have happened. I've seen Marius herself mete out
> worse punishment to people - first as an official list moderator for
> Nova Roma, and again while moderating her private list. Her idea
> of "not rewarding" behavior was nasty personal threats and instant
> banishment without recourse. Would that have been less "pompous?"
>

DRACO: Since I'm no member of his private lists, I have no experience in
that field. Again, Marius is not perfect. But does that justify such a
pompous action in return? Was a dialogue ever attempted between Cincinnatus
and Marius?

> > Draco:
> > ° The Name Change Edict / Law. Yes, it was voted in by the people.
> But does it mean that if 60% thinks A, that B is incorrect?
>
> Cassius respondit:
> And THIS sort of thing was the "fatal flaw" in the Amici Dignitatis
> platform. They tried to claim that they represented "The Sovereign
> People" in opposition to the magistrates of NR. (Who, oddly enough,
> are elected by the Citizens...) Yet, whenever the People disagreed
> with the Amici, they instantly refused to accept the judgement of the
> People as Sovereign.
>
> As far as I can tell, this meant that they felt the People should be
> Sovereign ONLY if they agreed with the ideals of the Amici. If they
> did not agree, then the ideals of the Amici Digitatis should prevail
> over the will of the Citizens... because it was "right". You can't
> have it both ways.
>

DRACO: The people are sovereign. But does that mean I have to agree with
them? I didn't think so.

> > Draco:
> > ° The Resignation Edict / Law: Yes, it was voted in by the people,
> too.
>
> Cassius:
> See above. The Will of the People is Sovereign... unless they
> disagree with you.
>
> If you (and the Amici) were so opposed to this lex, why did none of
> you ever come up with any viable alternatives? An amazing amount of
> effort has been spent vocally opposing this lex... but not one of you
> ever tried to work out a better solution. (Other than an open door
> policy that would allow people to obtain and drop Citizenship at
> will, ten times a year if they wished!)
>

DRACO: Well, I disagree. Some Amici worked out a different version of the
name change law, and I made an alternative to the lex regarding assidui and
capiti censi. It got some comment, but the discussion trailed off. If you
were really interested in hearing alternatives, you would have replied back
then.

> If *I* had been that empassioned about returning Citizens, I'd have
> set up a Sodalitas to welcome returning Citizens to Nova Roma, assist
> them in working out any past problems, and provide ongoing support to
> make sure that no new pressures/problems build up. If you really care
> about such citizens, there is no reason not to reach out to them, no
> matter what official lex is in place. If you create the facilities to
> help, that might be just what's needed to change the lex...
>

DRACO: Are you suggesting some sort of "helpdesk for returnees" here? Not a
bad suggestion. But how many citizens resign (ànd return) a year? About 10
to 15, perhaps. That wouldn't justify the creation of another Sodalitas,
imho. And be honest, mi Cassi, who would ever resign ten times a year?
People would see this too, you know, and grow very tired of this person. It
would only hurt his or her own reputation.

> > Draco:
> > ° The Language Policy: This measure is presented as a form of
> courtesy towards the large majority of anglophonic people on this
> list.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> This is another issue that has been "opposed" to the point of
> absurdity. The "Language Policy" will be OVER in a few months. The
> next Curator Sermonem will put their own policies in place.
> Personally, I would be *thrilled* if you or Michael Loos would
> volunteer for the job. I'd vote for either or both of you in a
> heartbeat. I truly believe that you deserve the honor and
> responsibility.
>

DRACO: I will think about it.

>
> > Draco:
> > ° The Assidui and Capiti Censi: Despite the opposition from many
> South Americans, and a considerable number of Europeans, this system
> was also pushed through, while it has no provisions for people who
> cannot pay (as opposed to will not pay). Magistrates with the heart
> on the right spot, such as Octavius, have offered to pay for poorer
> citizens, but these individual solutions won't work in the long run.
> While it is ok for an organization to limit the possibilities of
> people who won't pay, this is an organization that claims to be the
> heir to a multicultural empire, and it doesn't really show in this
> law.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> The issue of taxation has been discussed exhaustively for over three
> years. To say it has been "pushed through" is simply absurd. Nothing
> in Nova Roma has proceedeed slower, or with more agonized debate. All
> arguments have been gone over in public time and time again. Though
> you may disagree, it is not "wrong" for Nova Roma to charge for the
> most active level of Citizenship. Membership fees are an
> international standard for nonprofit organizations. I can't think of
> a single organization, from the Boy Scouts to the Audubon Society,
> that doesn't ask a yearly fee. The ancient Romans had several forms
> of taxes - and it is perfectly historical for us to have one small
> taxation fee.
>

DRACO: I agree. But my concerns about the poorer segments of the population
remain unadressed.

>
> > >Cassius:
> > > My basic feeling was, and is, that there is no particular barrier
> > > between the government of Nova Roma and the Citizens.
> >
>
> Draco:
> > Is that so? While there is a significant congruence beteween the
> Senate and the People qua opinion most of the time, sometimes it is
> really a matter of ignoring the people's will. Livia Marcia was, as
> far as I can tell, popular in her own province, and a role model as a
> governor. Due to an entirely different matter she was not prorogued.
> Oh, yes, her friends failed to vote in her favour. Sorry, that's a
> poor excuse for the people who voted against her, and were co-
> responsible for this wave of resignations that followed thereafter.
>
> Cassius:
> There's that fatal "Amici Flaw" again, Draco. It is poor logic to
> accuse anyone else of "Ignoring the People's Will" when you do it
> knowingly every time the people don't agree with you.
>

DRACO: I don't expect "the people" to agree with me every time. It would be
nice, but that's not the point here. I was saying that Livia was popular in
her province, and I daresay in NR, too, while the opposite was true in the
Senate.

> As far as Livia Marcia, yes, she was popular in her own province. She
> could be likable as an individual, even though she didn't get along
> with many Citizens, and had already left three Sodalitas groups in
> anger over disagreements when she became Praetor.
>

DRACO: I will agree that she had a short fuse, and divided opinions more
than once. Undeniably, you cannot turn your personal feelings off when
rating someone's performance, but this went a little too far imho.

> I did not dislike Livia, but cannot consider her a "role model"
> anything. As Praetor, she said she was having difficulties with Nova
> Roma, and that she could not in good concience recommend Nova Roma to
> others. Hardly someone to act as a "contact person" on the local
> level! As Praetor, Livia also went so far as to encourage people in
> her Provincia to *leave* Nova Roma. The Senate did question such
> actions - but she was not interested in discussing them, nor working
> to solve whatever issues she had. Even so she would have been
> prorogued... but she had already decided to leave her position. She
> deliberately asked her friends not to vote for her so that the Senate
> would look like the "bad guys".
>

DRACO: I heard the same, but I also heard that she had actually convinced
new citizens to join. And if the latter is true, I would be shocked.

>
> Draco:
> Another case; everyone will remember December last year. The
> > public knew I was an underage candidate, and yet 22 tribes voted in
> my favour (which was quite unexp ected for me, mind you!). The
> majority of the Senate however bypassed the will of the people, and I
> was sent flying. More on such things in my closing note.
>
> Cassius:
> I happened to have voted *for* you, as you know. And, I can well
> understand your still being angry over the situation. I think I would
> be too in your shoes. Yet, was it really a surprise? When you stood
> as a candidate you knew well the Senate had a Constitutional right to
> not approve you. I guess you just believed it couldn't possibly
> happen.
>

DRACO: I remember you voted for me, and I was very grateful for it (and I
still am). I don't feel anger anymore about the decision, and I knew it had
a chance of happening, but the motives of some nay-voters were in some cases
pretexts to get back at me. Those who voted against on basis of the laws,
fine, but those who did so out of a personal vendetta, I think it's sad.

>
> Draco:
> > That's correct, but they become suspicious if they continue to be a
> part of the yearly elected magistracy for four consecutive elections,
> while also holding various other positions. Granted that NR lacks
> volunteers when it comes down to the actual work, and this is very
> frustrating. But this lack of voluntarily help may also stem from the
> fact that it's always the same persons organizing everything. This is
> a system that carries the seeds of oligarchy, as I have said before.
> >
>
> Cassius:
> Gods below. So the people who do work to keep Nova Roma going are
> responsible for others not being willing to do such work?
>

DRACO. No. Partially, perhaps, but not fully. I didn't say this.

> I have news for you, my friend. As one of the "Evil Oligarchs" I will
> continue to be publically active in Nova Roma for as long as I'm a
> Citizen. I couldn't care less if it's through "elected" position or
> simply being an active Citizen... I simply refuse to sit on my ass
> and do nothing to satisfy you or anyone else. I feel I can
> contribute, so I will. That's just my nature.
>
> If my being Consul this year is dissuading anyone else from applying
> to be a Quaestor, or being active in their provincia, then it is my
> opinion that person is being an idiot. If next year I go for a minor
> Quaestorship because work needs to be done, and that dissuades
> someone else from running for Consul - they are again being a fool.
>
> But the idea is absurd. ALL volunteer organizations have problems
> getting enough people to do productive work. The problem you lay on
> the doorsteps of long-time Citizens is simply what happens everywhere
> when people aren't getting paid to put in their time and effort. Most
> folks prefer to take the course of least resistance and sit back and
> watch.
>

DRACO: I agree. But in time, the people doing all the work will inevitably
develop a special relationship, and a knee-jerk reflex to (relative)
newcomers who want to do things differently. This is a normal reaction, but
the AD adventure learnt me that it is also an unhealthy one. Some welcome
change, others don't like it.

>
> Draco:
> > Come now, there is a certain glory to being Consul, and that's not
> something to be ashamed of anyway. But no benefit? How about
> smacking in some extra century points? Or a Senate seat? I would say
> those are quite some benefits!
>
> Cassius:
> ROFL!!! Do you really think that anyone would take on a year of work
> and abuse just for a few century points? Or a chance to participate
> in that forum for endless bickering that is the Senate?
>

DRACO: What abuse? Does your wife beat you for being Consul? Do people send
you mailbombs? And if you had the choice, would you rather not be a Senator
and Consul?

(snipped)

> Draco:
> > And if they meet the requirements set by the leges regarding
> minimum age and the establishment of the cursus honorum.
>
> Cassius:
> You may not believe this, Draco, but someday, a long, long, long time
> from now... you'll be old enough to meet the minimum age
> requirement. And, once you're there, you'll be able to hold
> magistracies for the next sixy years if you want to keep running for
> them!
>

DRACO: Oh, I was not making a frustration statement. I was merely saying
that not just "any citizen" can become Consul by merely being a candidate.

> Draco:
> > Granted that our methods were rather ineffective, to put it
> euphimistically.
> > But what other suggestion do you have?
>
> Cassius:
> I find this an interesting question, since at least half my posts
> made to the Amici Dignitatis list were suggestions of other ways to
> solve the problems you felt you had, and other ways to go about doing
> what you wanted to do. Did you perhaps not read them?
>

DRACO: I did. I even followed some of the suggestions, and I won't forget
that you even brought the "Zombie Senator" in contact with us. An
unforgettable encounter ;->.

> In a nutshell, I felt that it was a bad thing for the Amici to have a
> bunch of problems and let them fester rather than trying to solve
> them in a reasonable manner. I also believed that your "Statements"
> were basically a declaration that everybody else in Nova Roma sucked,
> and a demand for everyone else in Nova Roma change to suit you folks.
>
> My suggestion was that you folks try to lead by good example, and not
> to declare others in Nova Roma as enemies. This can STILL be done.
>

DRACO: Don't I lead by good example then ;-)? All jokery aside, the AD °did°
try to solve the situations we saw, but mostly we couldn't, and why? We were
no dominant power in the Senate, nor did we have enough magistrates to
change it. All we had were words. Also, I contributed my fair share to
attempts to render the population more active, but it was really saddening
to see that even a really Roman topic such as philosophy got so little
attention. And I won't lightly forget my failed attempt at a youths list.
Those were honest attempts to "lead by good example", but all I was left
with was an empty bubble.

Our Statement was not to say: "you suck, guys", but "some of you suck,
guys". That's a subtle difference, but nevertheless a very important one
:-).

(snipped)

> > Draco:
> > And now the hypocrisy will start again: the Brittanici were
> embezzlers!
>
> Cassius:
> Er, they DID kind of deliberately keep money that Citizens in the UK
> had intended be sent to Nova Roma. If embezzlement isn't the right
> word, what is? And why would mentioning this situation be hypocracy?
>

DRACO: Because it's also wilfully omitting their good points.

> Draco:
> > Piscinus was an enemy of the state!
>
> Cassius:
> Was he? I hadn't heard...
>

DRACO: Sulla seems to declare him so post dato.

> Draco"
> That same, narrow-minded argument to
> > only see the bad things and enlarge them, was also the basic tactic
> of Stalin when he exiled Trotski. For a simplified version of that I
> recommend everyone to read George Orwell's Animal Farm.
>
> Cassius:
> Oddly enough, I personally felt that the Amici Dignitatis were using
> such tactics. Villify the "government", and pretend you speak "for
> the people". But that doesn't mean I considered you guys the same as
> Stalin, or the beasties in George Orwell's "Animal Farm".
>

DRACO: Well that's a good thing. I don't show any signs of becoming a pig
anytime soon.

> Accentuating bad things for political reasons is something done
> universally, by ALL sides of ALL communites. It happened in Ancient
> Rome, it happens in all the major world nations, be they democratic,
> socialist, etc. I'm afraid such things are a part of human nature and
> won't be leaving us soon. The best any of us can do is to try and
> keep a middle course.
>

DRACO: I agree.

> > Draco:
> > In a closing note, let me say that I am not so simple minded not to
> see the good things, and the good people, too.
>
> Cassius:
> And THIS, Draco, is one of your many good points. You're able to
> disgree with folks AND still see a bigger picture. A month ago, when
> Formosanus decided not to leave, I challenged him to say five good
> things about Nova Roma. He didn't, because he couldn't. As long as we
> can all admit that we're all just people, with bad AND good points,
> we have a chance of success.
>

DRACO: Thank you very much.

(snipped)



Valete bene,
S. Apollonius Draco




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Website problems/coolness
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:43:29 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan [mailto:c_pontius@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 4:41 AM
>
> by the way, who does the web site?? I couldn't find any links to send
> email... let me know!

That would be our Curator Araneum, Marcus Octavius Germanicus. He can be
reached at webmaster@-------- (if you look about 3/4 down the main page,
you'll see where it says "Questions and comments about this Web site should
go to the Curator Araneum", with a link to that address).

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Government vs People? (long)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:00:58 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 4:49 PM
>
> It was my understanding that she was accused of providing evidence for a
> secret investigation against Censor Sulla. This can hardly be called an
> action against the Senate or against the State. Even if it was not nice,
> it's no reason for not proroguing her.

Your understanding is incorrect. As I recall, nothing concerning her
involvement with any investigation of Sulla was mentioned at all. The
Senate's decision was based on her performance as governor and her behavior
as an officer of the State. Of course, not being privy to the discussions of
the Senate, you wouldn't know this; why then would you make such a wild leap
and guess at our motives? Always willing to believe the worst...

> I really don't understand your reasoning. If I should rate your
performance
> as a Consul, should I also rate your performance as a private individual?
Or
> as a husband? I don't think you would like that.

As I indicated above, the Senate's decision regarding her had nothing to do
with her personal interactions with Sulla or anyone else, your mistaken
impression to the contrary notwithstanding.

> Whether Livia did or did
> not do some shadowy things that were against the Senate still has nothing
to
> do with the tasks set in the Constitution for a governor. And did, by the
> way, something really unconstitutional happen? I wonder.

The Constitution states "it remains in the discretion of the Senate whether
or not to prorogue such governors." (paragraph V.C.). The Senate exercised
its discretion, and decided not to prorogue her. What is unconstitutional
about that?

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] is anyone working on a project?-taking up a threadand needle (3)
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:26:00 EDT

In a message dated 7/12/01 3:20:40 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- writes:


> Salvete
> On line sources for dress? Or history? And it is legiones. I have
> several
> sources for Roman style stitching, I'll dig them up.
> Valete.
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Salve,
> Yes, in general to all of your questions. Most of the sites I have book
> marked are copies of each other verbatim. I hate that as I am person who
> likes to figure out how and why something was done.

> I have a copy of the World of Roman costume edited by Judith Lynn
> Sebesta and Larissa Bonfante. I do not agree with some of their thoughts on
> the seams even by observation of statuary. An example that they use they
> feel points to a "faggoting" stitch. this type of stitch is bring the
> selvage together but not over lapping the edges. But when I look at it I
> see an image that looks like the stitch that I used. The stature they use
> is the Arringatore- an Etruscan municipal magistrate named Aule Meteli.
> Since the statue is in Rome I hope to see someday. But for now I must use a
> poor photograph. Again I don't think statuary is a very good source as the
> person who made it may not have cared to represent it accurtley

> are not any more sturdy that the rest of the fabric and thus
> can be damaged just as easily. Since clothing must last a long time I also
> use this to point to more than a simple straight stitch even if it is 12
> stitches to an inch theory. Buy rolling the edge and hemstitching it down
> you double the durability of the seam. In the middle east the side that
> seam side shows would then be covered/decorated with a chain stitch. It is
> possible for a Roman garment to be decorated that way as well.
>
Ancient fabrics were varied in quality and fiber just like today.
Wool's could be spun and woven as sheer as modern thin cottons. Are we going
to find that today not likely? Also Wool is a hair and many people cannot
bear to have it against the skin. fresh woven linen is incredibly scratchy.
In colonial time Slaves were forced to wear garment to break down the fibers
more. I suspect that would have been done in Roman times as well. The sheer
silks that came later would need a sealed seam to prevent raveling again an
argument for the seam I prefer to use.

I used thick needles ones have rounded points. I found it easy to sew
with them than the sharps as it made a better "hole" for the waxed thread to
pass through. I would suspect that a bone needle may have provided a good
"sharp" for embroidery work but those would be a rare find today.

There are so many ideas percolating.

Well, those are my thoughts anyway.

P. A Drusila
Lacus Magni


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread(2)
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:51:57 EDT

In a message dated 7/12/01 1:15:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
justicecmo@-------- writes:


> Always impressed by the work of others in this field! I'd love to see some
> pics of your work, if you wouldn't mind. In fact, if you'd like, I can have
> the images uploaded into the files section of our website and you could
> share them with other cives.
>
> :) Priscilla Vedia

Salve,
I must admit that I have no images. And as I write it is on the
garments are way their way to a new owner. Part of what made it such a
challenge is that we have never met. I used simple questions such as height
T-shirt and other garment sizes.
I prayed to Mars (as this is for a man of rank and works hard for
Nova Roma) when I started this project even before I cut the fabric. I hope I
was granted divine guidance in this endeavor.
I will have to wait to see if it fits and if he finds it agreeable to
his person. As I packed it for shipping I recalled the letters from miles on
the far flung fronts to their family and friends back home. it was worth a
moments pause.

Really this type of thing is very easy and quick. I found I like not
have to use a cumbersome sewing machine and find space large enough to sew on
a great change.
If anyone wants to give this a try I am available to help ,coach and in
general be supportive!

P.A. Drusila
Lacus Magni



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Website problems/coolness
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:05:11 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Gai,
>
> Every time i visit the web site, I find that I have trouble finding what
> i want to know. This is a problem... and so I would like to offer a
> solution. I am willing to work with anyone who does the web site so
> that we can increase it's efficiency.

Anyone wishing to discuss changes to the website is invited to join the
mailing list NovaRomaWebSites@-------- The Curator and all
scribes subscribe to that list, and that is where any plans will be
made for enhancing or redesigning the site.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: is anyone working on a project?-taking up a threadand needle (3)
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:26:35 -0000

> Ancient fabrics were varied in quality and fiber just like
today.
> Wool's could be spun and woven as sheer as modern thin cottons. Are
we going
> to find that today not likely? Also Wool is a hair and many people
cannot
> bear to have it against the skin. fresh woven linen is incredibly
scratchy.
> In colonial time Slaves were forced to wear garment to break down
the fibers
> more. I suspect that would have been done in Roman times as well.
The sheer
> silks that came later would need a sealed seam to prevent raveling
again an
> argument for the seam I prefer to use.

Salve Drusila!

A comment on this above, since I am also involved in reenactment and
wearing period garb for days at at time -
Wool, unless it is very badly milled, will tend to be softer and
easier to wear than most fabrics. The scratchiness and discomfort most
people get from wool fabrics is due to broken fibers (caused be bad
milling) or synthetic fiber blends (which tend to be very coarse) Same
case for linen - properly woven linen can be very smooth and quite
comfortable to wear. Heck, I've got a pair of bracae made out of
tea-dyed muslin (and muslin is usually reputed to be worse than linen)
that I wore over a two-day period and they were a lot more comfortable
than my 21st century denim shorts.

I've seen quite a few reenactors used a sealed seam - the website you
quoted is but one in a sea of opinions. The Legio I'm in has the
advantage that our Centurio is married to someone that is an expert on
textiles, weaving, and manufacturing garb. She is also very much into
reenacting, and has researched various items from the Vindolanda site
(best source of perfectly preserved Romano-Briton textile items -
PLEASE SUPPORT THEM VIA OUR RELIEF FUND {end shameless plug}). It's
amazing how much variety you can find in materials, milling
techniques, cut and preparation, etc.

BTW, cloth was extremely expensive back then. Leather was much
cheaper (military tents were made of leather, although canvas was
known, because leather was much cheaper). I would not bet that slaves
were used as part of the clothes softening process - fullers could do
that much easier. Besides, some of their processes for cloth
preparation (such as bleaching) would make the cloth a lot more
pliable and softer.

Optime Vale,
Marius Cornelius Scipio





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A discussion . .
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:50:06 -0000

> The Important thing to remember about Gaius Marius is he died before
> he wrote his memoirs (as far as we know) and most of his suporters
> died in the Sullan purges, while Sulla set his story down on paper
for > the direction (or misdirection) of future historians. Then as
now the > winning side got to write the history books.

Understood - as this is how the Princes in the Tower story of Tudor
England got misdirected (not to be off topic, but it's an interesting
story)

>
> Don't make the mistake of thinking that any Roman politican
was "doing
> his best for Romans as he knew it" The politicans of Roma Antiquita
> were intrested in thier own gain, and didn't play lip service to
> serving the people. A Roman might reply that he was running for
Consul
> because it was his duty to his family to ennoble them by becoming a
> novus homo Consul, and that was enough reason to run.
>

I guess I didn't mean exactly "doing his best for Romans as he knew
it" in the political sense, as I realize that the politicians in Rome
were just like our politicians now, but he did do a lot for the
Romans and saw ways that Rome needed to change if it was to stay
vibrant. The Head Count armys, etc. helped to change the way Rome
did almost everything . . made war, politics, etc.

Do you think it changed it for the better, or do you think that
Marius' many consulships just led the way (or was the start of)the
downfall of Rome? Did the fact that he was a novus homo make any
difference? If an established Roman, from a Roman family, done the
same things that Marius did, would they have recieved the opposition
that plagued Marius during his life?


> IMHO it was Marius's attempts to use the Plebian assembly to strip
the
> Senate of it's powers that led to the destruction of the Republic.

See my point above . . was Rome on it's way to the destruction of the
Republic by this point (and remember, there were many, many things
that led to that destruction), or was Marius's consulship the
beginning? Do you see anything before Marius's consulship that we
could now consider a sign or hint of a pattern that, in hindsight,
would show us that the Republic was on it's way out?

Vale,

Gaia Flacca




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Subject:	[novaroma] A discussion on Marius and Sulla
From:	martin p987654 <mp987654@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:21:46 -0700 (PDT)

I agree with Lucius Sicinius Drusus' remarks on Sulla
nd Marius. I just wanted to add couple points.

I think that it is a well established fact that Marius
became partly insane shortly before he and Cinna
closed on Rome in 85 BC. Plutarch and Caesar both
mention that Marius was "not at his senses" during his
terror he caused in Rome in 85 BC.

Marius also could have had an "extraordinary desire"
to become a consul for the seventh time and thus
fulfill the prophecy of Martha. Maybe it was his
desire that caused him to rape Rome in a gruesome
siege and a five day massacre.

Sulla was a great military leader and yes he was
underestimated by Marius. But on his way trying to
surpass Marius he resembled all features of Hitler or
Stalin. Remember his march on Rome and his plundering
of the cities. He ordered his men to rape women
before killing them! This order had lacked common
sense and purpose.

Sulla is correctly credited for his reformation of the
constitution, establishing permanent criminal courts
and increasing the number of prateors and senators.
But what Sulla cared about the most was his dignitas,
keeping his word and surpassing Marius. However,
while doing so, he butchered almost anyone who opposed
him. Marius was simple minded but until his severe
strokes (those he suffered during the civil war), he
never resembled the ruthless features of Sulla.

Marius lived to fulfill Martha's prophecy in which he
believed so much. Sulla lived to show the greatness
of his dignitas. But what matters the most, I think,
is "how" they lived to achieve this.

Gaius Julius Caesar

> > Gaia Flacca Severa
>
> The Important thing to remember about Gaius Marius
> is he died before
> he wrote his memoirs (as far as we know) and most of
> his suporters
> died in the Sullan purges, while Sulla set his story
> down on paper for
> the direction (or misdirection) of future
> historians. Then as now the
> winning side got to write the history books.
>
> Don't make the mistake of thinking that any Roman
> politican was "doing
> his best for Romans as he knew it" The politicans of
> Roma Antiquita
> were intrested in thier own gain, and didn't play
> lip service to
> serving the people. A Roman might reply that he was
> running for Consul
> because it was his duty to his family to ennoble
> them by becoming a
> novus homo Consul, and that was enough reason to
> run.
>
> Marius was intrested in doing what was best for
> Marius. He was one of
> Roma's great Generals, and as long as he remained
> away at the head of
> an Army, the Centuries kept the very popular General
> in office. This
> alone is enough to show that he wasn't the monster
> he was portrayed
> as. However like many Generals since he proved to
> lack the skills to
> lead a civilan government, and the last Consulship
> in the string of
> five was a disaster.
>
> When Marius made his grab for power by stripping
> Sulla of his command,
> I suspect that he no longer had the mental ability
> that he had shown
> as the great General. Sulla had served under him,
> and there was no
> excuse for him underestimating Sulla so badly.
>
> IMHO it was Marius's attempts to use the Plebian
> assembly to strip the
> Senate of it's powers that led to the destruction of
> the Republic.
> Once he forced the Consul to bring the Army to the
> defense of the
> powers of the Senate, the Republic was doomed.
> Sulla's march on Roma
> open the way for later instances of Generals
> dominating Roma with
> thier Army.
>
> Had Sulla failed to take the drastic action of
> marching on Roma, The
> Comitia would have no longer been restrained by the
> Senate, so it just
> would have been a matter of time until a Tribune
> used continual
> election to assume the powers that the Princeps
> later had. (The
> pattern of the tyrants in Athens)
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] working on a project?-taking up a threadand need...fiber talk
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:45:20 EDT

savle !!

wow I love fiber talk. thanks for indulging me so much.

What about the type of breed being used would also determine hair
length. The scale structure for hair is what I thought made it itch. But I
can see your point also. I have had a pleasure of spinning from the ground up
from cleaning very smelling fresh cut wool, carding dyeing in the wool and
spinning. I like to spin with a drop spindle. The abilities of wool to "wick"
body moisture is a great reason to use it. I haven't done the volume to weave
but I do love to embroider with it.

Linen: having spun with flax and find it to be very coarse in texture,
it has to do with the fiber and how they interlock. The beating plant fiber
will continues soften as wearing and washing will continue to break it down.
I was thinking natural rather than bleached which I bet really softens-breaks
down the fibers a lot. What I meant by the make a slave break it in. example:
I My child has a new linen tunica and he will not wear it cause it scratches.
I would make a house slave wear it to break it in. waste not want not.

Muslin- I have picked cotton while I was visiting in the South. It is very
soft from the beginning, Getting those darn seeds out would have made it so
labor intensive I can't imagine the average well to do Roman affording it
very often. Cotton can be carded like wool and is very soft during all its
stages. I can't see why it would have been scratcher than linen. It has a fur
like quality.

Leather is a lot more practical for tents. It holds the heat in and is much
easy to waterproof with oils. A lot of people do not know that the sail in
the caravels of Columbus were made with linen spun with drop spindles. That
wasn't very long ago.

And your very right (I hope you don't mind the cut and paste of the plug!)

<<She is also very much into reenacting, and has researched various items
from the Vindolanda site (best source of perfectly preserved Romano-Briton
textile items -
PLEASE SUPPORT THEM VIA OUR RELIEF FUND {end shameless plug}>>

again thank you
P. A. Drusila



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Subject:	[novaroma] (General)Re: By Jupiter, Let Politics Live!
From:	Caius Licinius Macer Gallia <john@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:04:04 -0500

My apologies for the first post going out with simply the replied-to message. Here is the actual message:

I agree with you on the aspect of keeping this forum open to all forms of discussion. But I also see a problem with people not following the guidelines set forth of restricting individual "agree" "disagree" responses. If people wish to
acknowledge a good idea, but don't necessarily have anything more pertinent to add, then reply privately.

Also, in response to those that would like to follow just one thread of discussion, perhaps we can accomodate this by putting something in the subject of its purpose, other than "totalitarism" or "threads". Totalitarism can refer to the
constructs of economics and society, not simply the governmental stylings. Perhaps we could use categorical headings such as (General), (Religio), (Capitolinus), etc.

These are just some ideas.
C. Licinius Macer Gallia

Maximina Octavia wrote:

> Again, there are Yahoo clubs for specific interests. Seeing that Politics determined the Rise and Fall of Rome, I see them as extremely important here. Perhaps you can find a list that discusses only what *you* want to discuss.
> This is a public forum and all aspects of Roman interest should be allowed here.
> Politics is in every aspect of life and I pray to Jupiter that they will forever be on the Main List so that the common and not so common citizens can be a part of the political process instead of ignoring it and allowing it to run
> itself.
> A more enlightened citizen than I, whose name I do not recall at the moment said (paraphrasing), "Do you not have a delete key on your keyboard?"
> Can you not skip or delete what does not interest you? If you want to talk about something else, start a new thread you think is relevant, ask a question, do you have nothing to contribute?
> Personally, I am a Religio person and I find that this list, The Main List, has it all!


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread(2)
From:	gkbagne@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:40:13 -0000

>From Lepella, To All Salvete!
If your intrested at looking at garmet construction of the time,
look up Coptic textiles, that is pre-islamic Egypt. The dry climate
has preserved fabric there in a way not possible in Europe, and Egypt
was a textile center producing fabric for comerce in all parts of the
Roman Empire. When I cut a tunic, I try to keep in mind that it
would take a housewife all year to comb, spin, weave and sew the
material for one large garmet. You'd realy want that garmet to last
and seams are going to be where it would fray. Garmets were woven to
shape and the edges (selvedge) were tightly card woven.
I've never woven my own tunic but I always keep cutting to a
minimum. I make my sleeveless undertunics with just one 10 inch
cut. I wrap it as a tube with the seam at one side but only sewn up
to the last 10 inches for an arm hole. The cut is at the opposite
side for the other arm hole, which I finish with a rolled hem. Then
its just sewing up the shoulders. since the top and bottom are the
selvedge of the fabric, I don't have to do any further finishing.
I find the challenge of being a Roman matron not sewing the
clothes, but wearing them. My stole is either dragging one end in
the dirt or slipping off my hair every time I'm carrying something or
hurrying along. It takes about 4 pins to keep things in place. I'm
paranoid about loosing my bronze pins so I made some bone pins that
don't work quite as well. I haven't tried wearing the stole rucked up
into a bustle, my derriere needs no special emphasis. I've looked
over Roman erotic art to figure out how clothes were worn and how
undergarmets were wrapped and have come to the conclusion that a lot
of the Roman men must have been derrier fanciers. The coutesans are
most frequently shown with full hips displayed, looking back over
their shoulders- or in their more active moments, with bottoms up.
The Greeks seem to picture bare breasted figures more frequently.
I think its important to look at contemporary pictures to figure
out the right "look" so you don't end up looking Hollywood, which
seems to have gotten stuck on the Isadora Duncan-Art Nuveau image of
the 1920's (as in Gladiator's sari princess). I think the costuming
in "I, Claudius" was a fairly good representaion, but still a little
on the "diaphonous" side.
Be Well! (imperative case)




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Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:24:31 US/Central

Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD

Consul Vedius has convened the Senate. The debate shall last from 6 PM pr.
Idus Quinctilis (12 July) to 6 PM a.d. XV Kal. Sextilis (16 July), and voting
shall end at 6 PM a.d. XIII Kal. Sextilis (18 July). All times are given in
official Nova Roma time (GMT+1). The agenda follows.
______________________

ITEM I. INCLUSION OF ICELAND IN THULE PROVINCIA

The boundaries of the province of Thule are hereby extended to include the
modern nation of Iceland.

-----

ITEM II. DIPLOMATIC RECOGNITION OF THE KINGDOM OF NUMIDIA

I. The Kingdom of Numidia is hereby recognized as a sovereign state and equal
in legal foundation and status to Nova Roma.

II. This recognition does not, in and of itself, confer any special diplomatic
favor on Numidia, other than recognizing its existence as a political entity.

-----

ITEM III. OFFICIAL CHARTERING OF THE SODALITAS MUNERUM

I. The Sodalitas Munerum is hereby chartered and granted the status of an
official Sodalitas of Nova Roma, with all the rights, priveleges, and
responsibilities attendent thereto.

II. The initial members of its Consilium ad Normas et Incolumitatis shall
consist of:
A. Quintus Fabius Maximus
B. Lucius Mauricius Procopious
C. Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus
D. Flavius Vedius Germanicus
E. Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator

III. The charter of the Sodalitas Munerum shall read as follows, and shall not
be altered without the permission of the Senate:

] Charter of the Sodalitas Munera
]
] I. Mission Statement.
]
] The Sodalitas Munera is formed as an association of Nova Roman citizens
] interested in the art of gladiatorial combat and related entertainments
] as practiced in ancient Rome. The Sodalitas is formed for the purpose of
] staging such games in as safe a manner as possible while still remaining
] authentic and entertaining. To further that end, the Sodalitas shall
] facilitate research, the production of armor and weapons, training,
] staging games, and those other activities which are deemed to support
] that mission.
]
] II. Membership.
]
] Membership in the Sodalitas shall be open to any citizen of Nova Roma.
] Members who wish to become lanistae and start their own ludus may do so
] according to the processes set up by the Consilium ad Normas et
] Incolumitatis. No member may hold a rank title (and thus participate in
] munera) unless he or she is a member of a familia gladiatoria. Members
] may leave the Sodalitas at any time, but those having done so may not
] rejoin it for a period of one year. Members may go on a leave of
] absence at any time, subject to the rules of his or her particular
] ludus.
]
] III. Organization.
]
] A. Familiae gladiatoria. Each lanista (trainer/manager) shall operate a
] ludus (school) for the training of gladiators and the performance of
] munera (gladiatorial games). All of the members of that ludus shall
] collectively be referred to as the "familia gladiatoria <name of
] lanista>". The ludus shall bear the name of the lanista who founded or
] currently manages it. The lanista shall have authority to determine
] training methods and standards, schedule and stage munera, and manage all
] other aspects of operation of the ludus, subject to those standards,
] rules, and guidelines the Consilium ad Normas et Incolumitatis shall
] enact.
]
] B. Gladiators. Anyone who participates in a munera under the auspices
] of the Sodalitas must hold a rank classification, and be subject to the
] rules and guidelines set forth by the Consilium ad Normas et
] Incolumitatis. Gladiators shall be ranked according to the following
] system of titles. The Consilium ad Normas et Incolumitatis shall
] determine the requirements for recognition of each rank.
] 1. Auctorati (entry-level volunteers)
] 2. Magistri (masters)
] 3. Doctores (teachers)
]
] C. Consilium ad Normas et Incolumitatis (Committee for Standards and
] Safety). Collectively, all lanistae and doctores shall form the Consilium
] ad Normas et Incolumitatis. The Consilium shall enact rules and
] guidelines to ensure that training and munera are done in a safe manner
] first and foremost, yet also authentic and entertaining, and shall act as
] a rules committee with the authority to establish rules by which actual
] munera shall be conducted. It shall also set standards for the ranking of
] gladiators and the operation of ludii and familiae gladiatoria, and shall
] also act as a court of arbitration for any disputes between members of
] the Sodalitas relating to its function. The Consilium shall set the rules
] by which it functions. The decisions, rules, and guidelines enacted by
] the Consilium shall be known as dictae (sing. dicta) and shall be
] published in a timely manner in such a way so as to be made available to
] the members of the Sodalitas.

-----

ITEM IV. APPOINTMENT OF GOVERNOR FOR PROVINCIA HISPANIA

M. Salix Vigilius is hereby appointed as propraetor of provincia Hispania.

-----

ITEM V. APPOINTMENT OF GOVERNOR FOR AMERICA AUSTRORIENTALIS

L. Sicinius Drusus is hereby appointed as propraetor of provincia America
Austrorientalis.

-----

ITEM VI. ALLOCATION OF DISCRETIONARY FUNDS

I. Whereas the Vindolanda Trust is a worthwhile endeavor consistent with the
stated aims and goals of Nova Roma, the Senate finds that it is well within the
boundaries of propriety that Nova Roma's resources be expended in its support.

II. The Consular Quaestores are hereby authorized and instructed to allocate
$200 from the central treasury and disburse the funds to the Vindolanda Trust.

-----

ITEM VII. SENATUS CONSULTUM ON DEFINING A QUORUM

I. This Senatus Consultum on Defining a Quorum is hereby enacted to define what
constitutes a quorum of the Senate, to ensure that participation in Senatorial
decisions is open to its members in a reasonable manner and fashion. In the
absense of such a quorum, no official Senate business may take place.

II. When official Senate business is being conducted via electronic mail (as
outlined in paragraph IV.A. of the Senatus Consultum De Ratione Senatus), at
least two-thirds of the members of the Senate must have access to the email
list in question in order to constitute a quorum.
A. The two-thirds requirement shall be calculated so as to retain
fractions; i.e., if 13.33 Senators are required to establish a forum, 13
Senators shall not be adequate to do so, but 14 shall be.
B. No call for debate or vote may be issued which deliberately excludes
some members of the Senate and not others in order to obscure Senate business
being conducted. Any magistrate so doing shall be subject to penalties that
shall be deemed appropriate by the Senate.
C. Any Senator subscribed to the officially-designated Senate email list is
assumed to have access to said email unless he specifically informs the Senate
as a body or the presiding magistrate that such is not the case.
1. Should a Senator declare himself incommunicado via email, that
Senator shall not be counted towards the constitution of a quorum.
2. Such a declaration may be made directly or through an intermediary.
3. Should a Senator declare himself incommunicado during an official
debate, and issue a proxy for his vote at that time, he shall still be counted
towards the constitution of a quorum.
D. The Consuls shall have the authority to designate the official Senate
email list, and must make any changes to such designation known to all members
of the Senate in a timely fashion.

III. When official Senate business is being conducted via means that allow real-
time communication (such as Internet chat, teleconferencing, or live meeting
(as outlined in paragraph IV.B. of the Senatus Consultum De Ratione Senatus),
two-thirds of the members of the Senate must be present at the same time in
said venue in order to constitute a quorum.

IV. The Senate may, ahead of time, vote to allow proxies when official Senate
business is being conducted via means that allow real-time communication (such
as Internet chat, teleconferencing, or live meeting (as outlined in paragraph
IV.B. of the Senatus Consultum De Ratione Senatus).
A. During the course of such a vote, Senators who will not be able to
participate may issue their proxies to Senators who will be.
B. Two-thirds of the Senate must still be represented (by either real
presence or proxy) in order for a quorum to be constituted.
C. Votes to allow proxies for real-time meetings must be done on a one-time
basis, and for specifically-scheduled real-time meetings. Proxies assigned
during such votes are valid only for the real-time meeting in question, and are
not automatically held over for future meetings.

-----

ITEM VIII. TAXATION

I. Whereas the collection of an annual fee from members is an activity which is
commonplace in membership organizations such as Nova Roma, which is currently
legally constituted as such within the United States; and whereas the
collection of annual taxes for the maintenance of the State is commonplace in
sovereign nations such as Nova Roma aspires and claims to be; and whereas the
setting of annual fees and taxes is a power granted to the Senate by the
Constitution of Nova Roma; this Senatus Consultum setting the amount of taxes
and the means by which they are collected is hereby enacted.

II. Each cive eighteen years of age or older is hereby assessed an annual tax
of US$12.

III. Taxes are due, paid in full, no later than the last day of February of the
year.
A. Cives who pay their taxes by this date shall be considered assidui
according to the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi.
B. Cives who fail to pay their taxes by this date shall be considered
capiti censi according to the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi.
C. Cives whose applications for Citizenship were approved between the
first day of December of the previous year and the last day of February of the
current year shall have their tax burden waived for the current year, and shall
automatically be considered assidui.
D. The Senate may, at its discretion, issue a Senatus Consultum extending
the deadline for paying taxes on a provincia-by-provincia basis, in case of
natural disaster, military conflict, or other extraordinary mitigating
circumstance. Such deadlines may not be extended past the last day of August.

IV. The Senate shall, with the aid and assistance of the local governors,
assign Publicani (sing. Publican) to assist with the efficient and cost-
effective collection of taxes, where it deems appropriate.
A. Appointments of Publicani may be made at any time, and shall last for
one calendar year, unless otherwise stipulated in the Senatus Consultum
appointing the individual to the post. Appointments may be renewed by a new
Senatus Consultum, and may be revoked at the discretion of the Senate at any
time.
B. All Publicani are required to be legally bonded to handle funds, with
proof of their bonded status provided to the Senate prior to their appointment
as Publicani.
C. Publicani are instructed to collect the annual tax payments from the
cives who choose to pay taxes within their provincia by whatever means they
deem necessary and efficient within the bounds of macronational and Nova Roman
law and convention, and then hold such funds until they can be transferred to
the central treasury in a single payment. They shall issue receipts to
individual cives as taxes are collected, as an instrument of proof thereof.
D. Publicani shall transfer their collected funds to the Consular
Quaestors for deposit in the central treasury no later than the last day of
March. They shall deduct any required fees and costs of tranferring their
collected funds from the funds themselves. At the time they do so, they shall
also transmit a report to the Consular Quaestores denoting which cives have
paid their taxes and thus should be listed as assidui.
E. Citizens shall in no way be required to pay their taxes through the
Publicani. If they wish to do so, Citizens can and shall pay their taxes
directly to the Consular Quaestors through those means they shall provide.
1. The Consular Quaestors shall issue receipts to individual cives as
taxes are collected, as an instrument of proof thereof.
2. The Consular Quaestors shall provide a report to the Censors
detailing which cives have paid their taxes and thus should be listed as
assidui.

-----

ITEM IX. DISPOSITION OF TAXES TO PROVINCIA

I. Those individuals charged with the collection of taxes shall maintain a
record of what amounts were raised in each provincia, and such records will be
provided to the Senate no later than the Idus of April.

II. One half of all taxes raised within a particular provincia shall be
designated to be spent within the boundaries of that provincia.
A. Such funds shall be kept in the central treasury, as managed by the
Consular Quaestors, and shall be disbursed by the Quaestors to local
authorities as authorized in the annual budget.
B. The annual budget, as prepared, shall reflect such designated funds,
whether or not they are actually budgeted to be spent within the year.
C. Funds designated to be spent within a provincia which are not spent
within the fiscal year, shall roll over to the next year, and such information
shall be reflected in the annual budget.
D. The Senate may, in times of emergency, use funds designated for use
within a given provincia. Such funds shall be replaced within three calendar
years by funds from the central treasury.

III. This Senatus Consultum shall apply only to annual taxes, and shall not be
deemed to apply to other funds which may be collected during the course of a
year, including but not limited to voluntary donations and other fees which may
be imposed.

-----

ITEM X. CREATION OF PROVINCIA MOESIA-DACIA

The province of Moesia-Dacia is hereby created, consisting of the modern
nations of Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, and Macedonia.

-----

ITEM XI. CREATION OF PROVINCIA VENEDIA

The Senate is given a pair of choices for the creation of Provincia Venedia:

I. The province of Venedia is hereby created, consisting of the modern nation
of Poland.

II. The province of Venedia is hereby created, consisting of the modern nations
of Poland and the Czech Republic.

-----

ITEM XII. OFFICIAL SPONSORSHIP OF LEGIO SECUNDA AUGUSTA

Based on the following application as received by the Senate, Legio Secunda
Augusta is hereby recognized as a Sponsored Legion of Nova Roma, with all the
rights, duties, and responsibilities attendent thereto.

> LEGIO PARTICULARS
>
> Full name of Commander of Legio: Consul Rob.
>
> Number of Legionaries in your Legio: 25
>
> Has the Commander attained the age of 18 years? Yes
>
> Are there legionaries younger than 18 years in the Legio? No - although
the minimum age is 16 and so there may be in the future.
>
> What Month/Year was your Legio formed? Formed April 1995
>
> Time period of Reenactment of Legio:(Please check where appropriate) We
are based on the time that the Leg. II Augusta were based in Britain, from
about 70AD to the time the legion left for Germania.
>
> What made you choose this time period?
The period / legion we chose was based on the fact that most members are of
British descent (given NZ is a British colony) and so we felt it would be of
more personal interest to people, so once we chose the Leg. II Aug, we had
to choose the time period they were in Britain. We have deliberately not
been too specific about the time to encourage a bit of variety (to help in
displays were we can show the evolution over time of Roman military
equipment) and to make it easier for new people to cobble kit together from
what is available (esp. as it is next to impossible to get new stuff made
since every experienced blacksmith in the N.Z. re-enactment community is
working on the Lord of the Rings!)
>
> Please give us a brief history of your main activities as a Legio since
> formation.
We are a combat legion. We use metal (but blunt) weapons and drill in
traditional Roman fighting techniques and formations. We are building
towards drilling in Latin, but we have a large number of new people this
year (including me) so we are starting in English. We fight against (and
with) other re-enactment groups in NZ. Often we are supported by (or
support) an affiliated Batavian auxiliary group based in West Auckland. We
have also made some effort to help set up a Praetorian Guard unit, which if
of fluctuating activeness. We fight at three main camps that occur during
the year in NZ and occasionally some members attempt to make it to the
Australian Conference or Armadale camps held at Easter of alternate years.
We also do several public educational displays at schools, fairs, parades
and anywhere we can get into the public eye to promote history, Rome, the
Legion or just to have a good time.
>
> What Events/Projects does your Legio plan to undertake within the next 12
> months?
We have several events planned. We will be undertaking a couple of
educational displays, one through the Auckland University Classical
Association at a Latin contest and the Kowhai festival in the town of
Warkworth. There are also the three major events on the re-enactment
calendar in N.Z. - NAAMA (National Association of Ancient and Medieval
Arts), Ham Steak War (A traditional "silly") and the Easter re-enactment
camp in Palmerston North were we will be engaged in actual combat.
>
> What do you see as your long term plans/goals within 5 years?
We wish to continue with attracting new members and building our
relationship with the Auckland Classics society to expand on the
educational/ display side of the clubs activities. We will also be building
the fighting level of the club up and having all drills in Latin.
>
> How did you hear about Nova Roma Sponsorship of Legios?
Via the Website.
>
> What other Reenactment Legios have you had association with?
We have had activities with the legion VIIII HSPA in Australia and owe
nominal allegiance to Emperor Snorrie (or perhaps a small dog?)
>
> Are you associated with SCA or other Period Reenactment Societies?
We work with the SCA in New Zealand and co-operate with other "metal weapon"
re-enactment clubs within New Zealand to host events and participate in
events others are hosting.

-----

ITEM XIII: EXPANSION OF SCOPE OF SODALITAS MILITARIUM

The charter of the Sodalitas Militarium is hereby expanded to include the
functions, roles, and procedures described in the following petition received
from the representatives Sodalitas Militarium.

] We, the Praefectus Castorum, Staff and Sodales of the Sodalitas
] Militarium hereby most humbly propose to expand the scope of functions
] within the Sodalitus Militarium to include:
]
] --Establishing The Militarium Review Board; a voluntary sanctioning body
] for military reenactment and living history organizations;
]
] --Establishing a new Praefectus Fabrum Doctum to oversee this function;
]
] --Establishing a Militarium Review Staff consisting of the necessary
] positions to assist the new Praefect in this function;
]
] --Establishing a Militarium Review Liaison Service charged with
] Recruitment, Review and Retention of sponsored Legios and related
] organizations and personnel.
]
] I. The Current State of the Sodalitas Militarium
]
] The Miitarium currently consists of the following organization:
]
] A Praefectus Castorum who heads the Miltarium;
]
] The Praefectus Castorum Staff consisting of:
]
] --Cornicularius Major (Adjutant);
]
] --Cornicularius Minor (Adjutant Asst.)
]
] --Scriba / Beneficarius; (Admin.Asst.)
]
] --Assensai Major (Senior Advisor)
]
] Four Legates and a Tribune, who head the five major parts of the
] Miltarium:
]
] --Legate Legionus (The Roman Legions);
]
] --Legate Auxila (The Roman Military Auxiliary Forces);
]
] --Legata Navales (The Roman Naval Forces);
]
] --Legate Architecturas / Geographica (Engineering and Cartography);
]
] --Tribune "Pilum" (The Militarum Quarterly Newsletter) and "Special
] Studies" Staff.
]
] II. Establish the position of the Praefectus Fabrum Doctum to
] head the Militarium Review Board (MRB) within the Sodalitas Militarium.
] The Praefectus Fabrum Doctum (PFD) will be bound by the following
] requirements:
]
] 1. The PFD will report to the Militarium Praefectus Castorum;
]
] 2. The PFD will be chosen by the Senate from a list of
] Candidates approved by the Militarium Praefectus Castorum;
]
] 3. The PFD shall rank below the Militarium Legates, and
] equally with appointed Militarium Tribunes;
]
] 4. The PFD shall serve at the pleasure of the Militarium
] Praefectus Castorum and the Nova Roma Senate;
]
] 5. The PFD's authority will have and maintain extensive oversight and
] review processes within the MRB Organization guidelines bearing on
] military and para-military reenactment / living history organizations
] under the sponsorship of Nova Roma. The PFD will also be
] responsible, under the direct guidance of the Militarium Praefectus
] Castorum, for contacting such military and para-military reenactment /
] living history associations not under the sponsorship of Nova Roma for
] information and to provide them with an opportunity to consider
] sponsorship in Nova Roma.
]
] III. The Staff of the PFD will consist of the following
] positions:
]
] 1. A Scriba -- who will assist the PFD in all administrative
] documentation and detail. If other Scibae are assigned the senior
] Scriba will then become a Scriba Major with the concurrence of the
] Miitarium Praefectus Castorum and the PFD;
]
] 2. A Beneficarius -- who will assist the PFD as an Advisor and Asst.
] Cornicularius in all endeavors. The Beneficarius should be the core
] of this officer's Staff, The Beneficarius shall rank over all Scriba
] and Libraii. Libraii as required will be appointed and ranked as
] Scriba, with specific research and document development duties;
]
] 3. Additional Staff may be assigned, with the concurrence of the
] Militarium Praefectus Castorum, at a later date as the need shall arise,
] and at the request of the PFD based on reported workload / data receipt
] accelerations.
]
] IV. Establish the Militarium Review Board which shall function as a
] liaison service, and a review organization under the authority of the
] Praefectus Fabrum Doctum which will:
]
] 1. Develop and Maintain required documentation for identification, unit
] contact and unit data accumulation regarding any Legios,
] Military/Para-military Reenactment / Living History units (hereafter
] known as "Legions") with the potential for Nova Roma sponsorship, as
] indicated below:
]
] A. Contact / Outreach documentation for Roman Legions;
]
] B. Updated Contact / Information Records on Legions as indicated in
] (A.) above;
]
] C. Data-Gathering Documentation for Legions requesting sponsorship
] consideration from Nova Roma;
]
] D. Recommendation Forms to the Nova Roma Senate for Legions
] requesting sponsorship consideration from Nova Roma.
]
] 2. Completed Recommendations for Legions requesting sponsorship
] considerations will be sent to the Nova Roma Senate by the Militarium
] Praefectus Castorum;
]
] 3. Provide the Biennial Reviews to the Nova Roma Senate and to each of
] the Legion's specific leadership of the reviewed organizations
] (Legion's review to the same Legion's leadership only);
]
] 4. Maintain contact and updated contact information with Legions
] while emphasizing the following elements:
]
] A. Nova Roma can and will assist in coordination with other Roman Era
] Reenactors;
]
] B. Nova Roma can and will assist in the maximizing of required
] authenticity and accuracy in the reenactment community with regard to
] materials, accoutrements, weapons, uniforms, clothing, food and
] procedures in the reenactment community,in accordance with the Nova Roma
] published standards;
]
] C. Freedom of religion is respected within Nova Roma and the Sodalitas
] Militarium. Nova Roma sponsorship of Legions therefore is completely
] independent of religious affiliation for any Legions or thier members;
]
] D. Promote and encourage all contacted Legions and individuals to
] participate and seek citizenship in Nova Roma.

-----

ITEM XIV: OFFICIAL CHARTERING OF THE SODALITAS IUDEICA

I. The Sodalitas Iudeica is hereby chartered and granted the status of an
official Sodalitas of Nova Roma, with all the rights, priveleges, and
responsibilities attendent thereto.

II. Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix is hereby appointed as acting Praefectis
Iudeaica.

II. The charter of the Sodalitas Munerum shall read as follows, and shall not
be altered without the permission of the Senate:

] CHARTER FOR THE SODALITAS IUDEAICA
]
] This is the working charter for the Sodalitas Iudeaica. This Sodalitas
] was created because many of us, citizens of Nova Roma feel that this
] aspect of Roman life needs to be further explored
] and developed. Many citizens, approximately 20-30% are not Pagan, most
] of them are either Jewish or Christian. This sodalitas will function as
] a gathering place where we can have a
] reasoned discourse on the development of these societies. The focal areas
] run concurrent to Nova Roma's timeframe
] because many of the issues that affected the Jews
] were beginning to occur after the Divided Kingdom and during the Exile
] period (the development of Synogagues, the distruction of the 1st
] Temple, etc). The cultural transition that occurred
] resonated throughout the remainder of this timeline, the effects are
] still felt even today.
]
] Focal areas:
] 1. Study of the Hebrew Religion as it was practiced during the
] period 500bce-300ce.
] 2. Study of the Jewish Culture as it was lived during the period
] 500bce-300ce.
] 3. Study of Politics in the Lands of the Israelites during the
] period 500bce-300ce.
]
] Officers:
] 1. Praefectis Iudeaica (head of the Sodalitas)
] 2. Elder, Tribe of Judah (responsible for secular areas)
] 3. Elder of the Levites (responsible for areas of religion and
] health)
] 4. Two Rogatores (responsible for counting ballots)
] 5. Webmaster (responsible for setting up and running a website)
] (Retarius/Retaria)
] 6. Scribae, as required (assistants to the officers) - Scribes are
] appointed by the elected officers of the Sodalitas. (Libraria/Librarius)
]
] Objectives:
] 1. Purpose is to report on and discuss the focal areas, with the
] goal of improving knowledge.
] 2. Discussions of other faiths are allowed to a point where there
] is a relation or tangent with ancient Judaism.
] 3. Establishing and documenting religious observances and a
] calendar.
] 4. Compiling a reading list.
] 5. Study of temple worship and architecture.
] 6. The developement and codification of various ietary
] requirements, health beliefs and practices.
] 7. Lineages of the major branches of Israelites.
] 8. Delineation of the major sects.
] 9. Build a timeline of major historical events.
]
] Administrative Aspects of Sodalitas:
]
] 1. Terms of office for all Sodalitas officers are for 1 year.
] Elections will take place by March 1st.
] 2. In ever election, each member of the Sodalitas gets only one
] vote.
] 3. Rogatores are not able to run for office.
] 4. This Sodalitas is open to anyone, regardless of citizenship to
] Nova Roma or not. (Just as a note, ever Sodalitas is open to
] non-citizens.)
] 5. Elected officers of the Sodalitas must be citizens of Nova
] Roma. And, at least be 18 years of age. Members of elected officers
] need not be Jewish to hold the position.
] 6. Elected offices are: Praefectis Iudeaica; Elder, Tribe of
] Judah; Elder of the Levites; Two Rogatores; Webmaster.
] 7. Elections are based on Plurality. In other
] words, whoever gets the most votes wins.
] 8. Modification of Charter can be done with a simple majority vote.
] However, the Praefectis Iudeaica, must summon the Sodalitas for a vote
] and must give 10 days notice that an election/vote is going to happen. In
] addition to this the proposed changes must be posted at least 10 days
] before the election begins. Notification means that there must be a
] post on the officially sanctioned list of this Sodalitas.
] 9. The Official email list of the Jewish Sodalitas is currently,
] NR_Jewish_Sod@-------- The official list can be changed b--------> ] popular vote as illustrated by items 11 and 12.
] 10. Consecutive terms are allowed for all positions execpt Rogator.
] (Note: This is because Rogatores cannot be Rogatores and run for
] elected office.)
] 11. Only members of the Sodalitas may vote. Those members of the
] Sodalitas will get a voter code. When the vote, a copy of the voter
] code must be accompanied with the vote so the
] Rogatores can verify the vote is valid. The voting will be done via a
] secret ballot, and it will be organized by the Praefectis Iudeaica to
] organize. Rogatores will count the votes and check the
] voter codes to make sure the vote is authentic.
] 12. Votes will be announced by the Praefectis Iudeaica. The
] Praefectis Iudeaica will announce all votes on the Official Sodalitas
] list. However, the Praefectis Iudeaica, must summon
] the Sodalitas for a vote
] and must give 10 days notice that an election is going to happen. In
] addition to this the proposed changes must be posted at least 10 days
] before the election begins. Once an announcement is given 10 days will
] pass and then the voting will be open. All voting will last 48 hours
] (This is the same time frame the Senate of
] Nova Roma has). Rogatores will have 48 hours to count the votes. The
] Results will be given to the Prafectis Iudeaica. The Prafectis Iudeaica
] will have 24 hours to submit the results to
] the Official list of the Sodalitas.
] 12. The above voting procedures as illustrated in item 11&12 also
] comply for the election of officials in the Sodalitas.
] 13. New members of the Sodalitas must send in their Roman name and
] their intent to be apart of the Sodalitas on the officially sanctioned
] list. However, members do not have to be
] subscribed to the list to remain a member of the Sodalitas.
]
] Job Descriptions of Sodalitas Officers:
]
] All three senior officials shall work together for the good of the
] Sodalitas. Consider the three officials as an informal board of
] directors guiding the sodalitas. When issues are presented, the
] officials will have the discretion to either place items for a vote by
] the Sodalitas or not. However, beyond working together each official
] will have various responsibilities.
]
] Praefectis Iudeaica - the Head of the Sodalitas.
] 1. To act as Liason to the Senate of Nova Roma and College of Pontiffs
] and other magistrates of Nova Roma.
] 2. To summon the Sodalitas for voting (for officials or changes in the
] Charter).
] 3. To answer various questions regarding Sodalitas administration and
] membership.
] 4. To maintain the roll of members of the Sodalitas.
] 5. To help the other two heads of the Sodalitas to accomplish their
] tasks and projects.
] 6. Other duties and responsbilities not listed in this charter.
]
] Elder, Tribe of Judah
] 1. This official's main responsibility is to develop the Sodalitas in
] all aspects that are Secular in nature.
] 2. To assist the Prafectis Iudeaica in official matters of the
] Sodalitas.
] 3. To help accomplish the objectives of the Sodalitas.
] 4. Can establish edicts (guidelines) to help accomplish the objectives
] of the Sodalitas. An, example would be appointing a scribe.
]
] Elder of the Levites
] 1. This official's main responsibility is to develop the Sodalitas in
] all aspects that are religious related. This also includes the dietary
] requirements.
] 2. To assist the Prafectis Iudeaica in official matters of the
] Sodalitas.
] 3. To help accomplish the objectives of the Sodalitas.
] 4. Can establish edicts (guidelines) to help accomplish the objectives
] of the Sodalitas. An, example would be appointing a scribe.
]
] * - Edicts can be overturned by the Prefectis and by a vote of the
] members of the Sodalitas.
______________________

Valete





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread(2)
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:35:24 EDT

Salvete,
Funny you should mentions Coptic pieces. My persona is the SCA is 9th
century single wealthy woman from what is now Medina. You are so right about
the surviving material and garments.
I have one book that I recommend all the time. It is: Women's Costume
of the Near and Middle east by Jennifer Scarce. It is out of print but a very
useful book for reenactment knowledge. worth a read!

Wearing the garment can be a challenge. It might help to try to get
"under the skin" of your Roman femininity. I have a friend that weaves on a
semi professional basis.
she has made garments from her own spinning and weaving. A wool thobe (a long
shirt) for her husband. it took her three months from raw wool to finished
garment. I don't know if garments would truly take a year. But they would be
just as precious.

I 'm short 60 inches to be exact - 5 foot tall. I have no problem with
most fabrics being just fine. I am remind that looms can be quite narrow as
little as 25 inches (or less) wide. So again I think I need to reeducate my
self on wither or not they used tubular looms.
As to your stola, if you either put hairspray on or don't wash your
hair it will stay better. I use hair spry or mousse to add texture. what type
of bronze pins are you using? what weight of fabric are you using?

Later Roman woman went for a light as possible in their fabrics. I have a
later reference to a woman's shirt (middle eastern) being as sheer as dust.
Now that is thin!
I don't see too much wrong with the "I Cladius" garments but it has been
years since I have seen them. I might think differently.

having fun is the best part.


P.A. Drusila the driven


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hi
From:	"M Arminius Maior" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:47:45 -0300

Salve, Laetius

Is a pleasure to say welcome to a new brazilian citizen of Nova Roma.


Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior
Propraetor Brasiliae

--

On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:26:27
Titus Martius Laetius wrote:
>Hi
>Im a new citizen, from Brasilia. Hope you all can help me here. :)
>
>ex corde,
>
>Titus Martius Laetius
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs People? (far too long)
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:56:31 -0700 (PDT)

> DRACO: To officialize something is often a
> rationalization in itself. I
> think this thread has been thoroughly addressed by
> Fortunatus.

Septimius: the same may be said of embellishment.
Good point Draco, why continue this thread?
Unless speculations of one's intentions are being
tread upon.


>
> DRACO: What did he lie about? I'm not certain what
> you're talking about
> here? I'm not going backwards. If you want to stick
> the term impersonation
> (which is usually used in espionage affairs or other
> political conflicts),

Septimius:
Impersonation is also used in plays & satyr.Shall we
pick which definition is best suited for this thread?
As long as it serves your needs.. correct?

> then I could say Nerva impersonated Apollo! Is that
> not blasphemy?

Septimius:
Blasphamy is for another topic. Stay whithin the lanes
in which you care to drive in.





> DRACO: Ah, and I suppose it's Marius' fault too that
> he wants his name
> changed according to his spiritual gender? Why an
> edict in the first place,
> instead of dealing with the request privately. One
> citizen requesting a
> somewhat special name change,

Septimius: No, its not Marius' fault. But something
that should have been thought of in the first place..
If it was that important.And why should it be kept
private? Do you have something against other's sexual
preferenses?
I dont believe that it was somehting that should've
been kept in the dark.For the simple fact that there
is nothing to be ashamed of.But it seems that you are
implying this.

and all this fuss
> about it. I could and can
> hardly believe it.

Septimius:
All this fuss? You are refering to the one in which
you are contributing to, correct?


> > Sulla: It should have never BEEN an issue in the
> first place which is
> > my point. One should have a loyalty to the State,
> espeically when one
> > has been given responsiblity by the state.


> DRACO: Reading the above, I am not surprised that
> some people think of you
> as a totalitarian. I think loyalty to your personal
> principles are more

Septimius: From what I have just read in the above
statements. Censor Sulla, would be held in high regard

in the Roman Senate. After all, it is S.P.Q.R.
correct? One in the same.. And as I read your previous
posts (Draco) on this subject. Your loyalty to your
personal principlesseem to be in the forefront.Censor
Sulla at least mentions the respect he has for his
position as a representative of the laws & people of
Nova Roma.


Semper Fidelis, A. Corvus
Septimius




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Website problems/coolness
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:32:24 -0400

Ryan at c_pontius@-------- wrote:

>
> Every time i visit the web site, I find that I have trouble finding what
> i want to know. This is a problem... and so I would like to offer a
> solution. I am willing to work with anyone who does the web site so
> that we can increase it's efficiency. When i first joined Nova Roman i
> made a new design for the site. New colors and new layout. That design
> has now been lost, but I have the basic idea still in my brain.

Salve Gaius,

I fully support this idea of renovating novaroma.org. I as a provincial and
family retarius, like to think of our websites as the closest thing we have
to physical buildings. Because of this fact, having efficient websites using
new internet technologies should be a issue that is addressed. It is a
matter of how we as a nation present ourselves to visitors that may be
interested in taking up citizenship. Great to see a citizen offering up
there skills. I wish you the best of luck on this project.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--






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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Psychos
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:04:09 +0200

Salvete,

Upon reading about the efficient ruthlessness of Sulla, and Marius' madness,
I was reminded of many other allegedly mentally ill Romans who were rather
infamous, such as Nero and Caligula. Or the paranoid Domitianus. And
possibly countless others. The question is, why where they so? Other
histories have had their proper fruitcakes as well, but why were so many
Romani so psychpathic. I've heard that it had to do with lead being in their
water, but I don't know if it's true. Also, I think that some persons have
been villified by sensational "historians" (Suetonius), or presented as
literary interesting persons rather than actual persons (Tacitus). And let's
not forget the later christian interpretations; some christians saw the
Roman Empire as the Evil Empire (and Nero as the antichrist). But even so,
if it's an exaggeration, why were they so insane?

Valete bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: is anyone working on a project?-taking up a thread(2)
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:42:58 -0400

I have been able to go from sheep to tunica with 2 other
spinsters helping out in the course of 3 week ends. The first
weekend, saturday morning we sheared, scoured and spread the wool
to dry in the sun. It took about 2 hours of going out and
flipping the scoured fleece til it was dry enough to start
spinning. We had one spinster that was incredible - the smoothest
thread I have ever seen come from a drop spindle! I can do it
that finely if I bowl-spin, but not unsupported ;-) We spun the
rest of saturday, and sunday. The second weekend and the final
saturday were all spinning, and I broke off long enough to warp
the loom, and I started weaving while the other 2 spun out the
rest of the fleece. We got it finished by about 8 pm on the final
sunday.

I would hazard to guess that the actual spinning and weaving only
took up a part of the day, there was a lot of other stuff to do
to maintain a home besdes clothing. Besides, most people only had
3 or 4 garments not these whonking big wardrobes that we have
today ;-)

Try making the palla about a fingerwidth above the ankle, and put
a dark colored trim strip along the bottom of the tunica, and
wrap your stolla like a toga [up from the left knee, over the
shoulder, under teh right arm and over the top of the left
shoulder with a sort of downward loop of enouh fabric to weight
the stola so that the tail end can go over the head. My stollas
tend to be about 12 feet/4 yards/4 meters long by what ever the
width of the fabric is. The just above the ankle length on the
palla keeps it from dragging too much, and the dark trim on the
bottom keeps the dirt from being too obvious, and the long stolla
makes it easier to stay in place. If I have a real short [2
yards/6 feet] stolla, I do a more middle eastern style wrap of
drape down the left sida, over the head and around to the front
and swoop the right side up and over the left side. I don't
remember seeing a lot of tablet woven trims on the top hems of
tunicas [mens or womens] in art, you see a lot of clavii [the
stripes running from top to bottom on either side.] I have seen
more forms of fibular pin than straight or annular pin, and one I
have seen online is more like a modern safety pin than not.

The way I look at it, most of the representations we have of
roman women's clothing seems to be of the middle and upper
classes, and a lot of the work we do around a campsite tends to
be that which would have been done by one of the ubiquitous
slaves. IIRC there was an intimnation that all but the absolutely
poorest families had at least one slave. This year at Pennsic, I
'bought' myself a scullery servant so I wouldn't have to wash
dishes and cooking stuff ;-)

One of these years, if I get the money together I would love to
set up a wood and canvas 'villa rustica' and populate it with my
core family and a selection of 'freedmen' and 'slaves' and try
for a realistic representation of how it might have been. I do
know that when we move to Arizona, Rob has promised to build me a
home to suit and I am sort of working on a villa patterned after
one of the smaller homes from Pompeii - it will suit the weather
nicely!
margali
~~~~~
the quote starts here:
When I cut a tunic, I try to keep in mind that it
would take a housewife all year to comb, spin, weave and sew the
material for one large garmet. You'd realy want that garmet to
last
and seams are going to be where it would fray. Garmets were
woven to
shape and the edges (selvedge) were tightly card woven.

I find the challenge of being a Roman matron not sewing the
clothes, but wearing them. My stole is either dragging one end
in
the dirt or slipping off my hair every time I'm carrying
something or
hurrying along. It takes about 4 pins to keep things in place.
I'm
paranoid about loosing my bronze pins so I made some bone pins
that
don't work quite as well. I haven't tried wearing the stole
rucked up
into a bustle, my derriere needs no special emphasis.



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs People? (far too long)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:53:05 +0200

Salve Antoni Corve,

> > DRACO: To officialize something is often a
> > rationalization in itself. I
> > think this thread has been thoroughly addressed by
> > Fortunatus.
>
> Septimius: the same may be said of embellishment.
> Good point Draco, why continue this thread?
> Unless speculations of one's intentions are being
> tread upon.
>

RESPONDEO:

I didn't start this sidethread, my friend.

> > DRACO: What did he lie about? I'm not certain what
> > you're talking about
> > here? I'm not going backwards. If you want to stick
> > the term impersonation
> > (which is usually used in espionage affairs or other
> > political conflicts),
>
> Septimius:
> Impersonation is also used in plays & satyr.Shall we
> pick which definition is best suited for this thread?
> As long as it serves your needs.. correct?
>

RESPONDEO:

No, this has nothing to do with my needs, but with correct definitions.
Problem is that impersonation is a correct definition, but one with many
different interpretations.

> > then I could say Nerva impersonated Apollo! Is that
> > not blasphemy?
>
> Septimius:
> Blasphamy is for another topic. Stay whithin the lanes
> in which you care to drive in.
>

RESPONDEO:

I am. It was an impersonation that could be interpreted as blasphemy.

> > DRACO: Ah, and I suppose it's Marius' fault too that
> > he wants his name
> > changed according to his spiritual gender? Why an
> > edict in the first place,
> > instead of dealing with the request privately. One
> > citizen requesting a
> > somewhat special name change,
>
> Septimius: No, its not Marius' fault. But something
> that should have been thought of in the first place..
> If it was that important.And why should it be kept
> private? Do you have something against other's sexual
> preferenses?

RESPONDEO:

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this insinuation. I having something
against other sexual preferences? Where does that stand?

> I dont believe that it was somehting that should've
> been kept in the dark.For the simple fact that there
> is nothing to be ashamed of.But it seems that you are
> implying this.
>
> and all this fuss
> > about it. I could and can
> > hardly believe it.
>
> Septimius:
> All this fuss? You are refering to the one in which
> you are contributing to, correct?
>

RESPONDEO:

Hm, yes. In trying to solve the fuss, I inevitably add to it. Such is life.

>
> > > Sulla: It should have never BEEN an issue in the
> > first place which is
> > > my point. One should have a loyalty to the State,
> > espeically when one
> > > has been given responsiblity by the state.
>
>
> > DRACO: Reading the above, I am not surprised that
> > some people think of you
> > as a totalitarian. I think loyalty to your personal
> > principles are more
>
> Septimius: From what I have just read in the above
> statements. Censor Sulla, would be held in high regard
>
> in the Roman Senate. After all, it is S.P.Q.R.
> correct? One in the same.. And as I read your previous
> posts (Draco) on this subject. Your loyalty to your
> personal principlesseem to be in the forefront.Censor
> Sulla at least mentions the respect he has for his
> position as a representative of the laws & people of
> Nova Roma.
>

RESPONDEO:

Has it never occurred to you that one of my principles is a basic respect
for all people, drunken slum and high magisrate alike.



Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	[novaroma] Tribuni et Edicta?
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:55:09 US/Central

Salvete omnes

In order to bring up a new, non-political, thread of my own, I thought I’d
share a recent discovery. I was doing some light surfing the other day, and
started rooting through Smith’s "A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities"
on Bill Thayer’s Lacus Curtius site
http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/S
MIGRA*/home*.html (long URL, watch for wrap), and I ran across the following
very interesting statement in the definition of tribuni plebis.

"The college of tribunes had also the power of making edicts, as that mentioned
by Cicero (in Verr. ii.41; cf. Gell. iv.14; Liv. xxxviii.52). In cases in which
one member of the college opposed a resolution of his colleagues nothing could
be done, and the measure was dropped..."

Now, the cited section from Livius says:
***
L. Scipio appealed to the tribunes of the plebs as a body, and they passed the
following resolution: "If illness be pleaded as an excuse, it is our pleasure
that this excuse be accepted, and our colleagues must again adjourn the day of
trial." Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus was one of the tribunes. He was a
political opponent of Scipio, and had forbidden his colleagues to add his name
to their resolution. It was generally expected that he would give a more severe
sentence, but he drew up a resolution in the following terms: "Since L. Scipio
has pleaded illness as the reason for his brother's absence, I hold that to be
sufficient excuse, and will not allow P. Scipio to be put on his trial before
his return to Rome; even then, if he appeals to me, I will support him in any
effort to avoid a trial. Scipio has by the common consent of gods and men
attained such a lofty position through his own acts and the honours which the
Roman people have conferred upon him, that for him to stand beneath the Rostra
as a defendant, and have to listen to the insults of young men, would be a
greater ignominy for the people of Rome than for him."
***

This passage does imply that the tribuni could draw up official resolutions,
but it doesn’t convince me that the ancient tribuni could use these resolutions
to establish law in the same way that a magistratus maior could through the
exercise of ius edicendi. It also seems to contradict the assertion that one
dissenting tribunus could interfere with the college’s ability to issue a
resolution. Rather, it seems that any or all of them were at liberty to issue
whatever opinion they might choose, whether individually or as a whole.

Unless I’m misinterpreting the citation, the quote from Cicero reads:
***
But, I was going to say, when these five judges had been appointed, by no law,
according to no use, with none of the proper ceremonies, with no drawing of
lots, according to his mere will, not to examine into the cause, but to give
whatever decision they were commanded, on that day nothing more was done; the
parties are ordered to appear on the day following.
***

I fail to see how this touches on the issue of tribuni issuing edicta, as it
refers to illegal activities undertaken by C Verres when he was in charge of
Sicily, and not to any action by a tribunus plebis.

Unfortunately, I don’t have access to a translation of Aulus Gellius’ Noctes
Atticae, and I’m not nearly proficient enough in Latin to be able to read it
untranslated. I’d appreciate it if someone could quote the cited section for
me.

In any case, I wonder if "A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities", which
was published in 1875, isn’t entirely off base when it asserts that tribuni
issued edicta. Isn’t it more likely that the ius edicendi wasn’t extended to
tribuni, and that they simply issued opinions on matters in the form of
proclamations that did not have the force of edicta? Or, did tribuni actually
issue edicta that were compiled, as were the edicta of praetors, to be used as
a corpus of law and tradition that was referred to when the tribuni tried cases?

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:01:39 -0000

OOOH!! Good topic.

I think that some of the madness that you are referencing could be
from the lead, but also from a variety of other reasons.

The grain that was given to the city was, on different occasions,
tainted, I believe, with ergot. This fungus, from which LSD was
first synthesized, could cause some of the brain damage or madness
that you are referencing.

I also believe, however, that some of what we are told is "mad" is
caused by historians for the conquering, or next dynasty, trying to
splash mud on the past. As with Richard III, which I referenced in
an earlier message, dirty and dangerous deeds are attributed to a
previous reign in order to make the current reign/dynasty/whatever
look better.

But there is also some merit in thinking that some of these people
were simply so paranoid because of the political climate, and their
fear that they would be replaced/discharged/killed by political or
other enemies would probably drive any of us mad.

We know that behind the scenes politicking was done all the time, and
that changing sides was common. If you were the
consul/emperor/dictator, would you not be paranoid under these
circumnstances?

Gaia Flacca Severa

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Upon reading about the efficient ruthlessness of Sulla, and Marius'
madness,
> I was reminded of many other allegedly mentally ill Romans who were
rather
> infamous, such as Nero and Caligula. Or the paranoid Domitianus. And
> possibly countless others. The question is, why where they so? Other
> histories have had their proper fruitcakes as well, but why were so
many
> Romani so psychpathic. I've heard that it had to do with lead being
in their
> water, but I don't know if it's true. Also, I think that some
persons have
> been villified by sensational "historians" (Suetonius), or
presented as
> literary interesting persons rather than actual persons (Tacitus).
And let's
> not forget the later christian interpretations; some christians saw
the
> Roman Empire as the Evil Empire (and Nero as the antichrist). But
even so,
> if it's an exaggeration, why were they so insane?
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco




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Subject:	[novaroma] Meeting on July 20
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:06:31 -0700

Ave,

There will be a meeting on July 20. It will take place at Tulipano's
Restaurant in Covina, CA.

Tulipano Italian Restaurant
530 S Citrus Ave # 15
Azusa, CA
(626) 967-6670

The reservation is schedulted for 1 pm.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re:Roman Psychos
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:50:36 +0300

Avete....
I don't know what the historians are saying on this subject but my
opinion is..
excessive power has strange effects on weak personalities...and
unfortunately every
nation had their share of the crazy rulers from time to time throughout
the course
of the history...we,too,had some in the Ottoman Empire!I think they
wouldn't have
been that crazy had they been born as ordinary people...but too much
power and
responsibility turned them into sick persons.They were just the wrong
people for the
job!
There is a fine site dealing with the subject:
www.xs4all.nl/~kvenjb/madmonarchs/madmon.htm
Valete bene..





Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
Civis Novae Romae

* Sapiens dominabitur astris ! *




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:45:14 +1200

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Domna Claudia Auspicata Senatui et Quiritibus SPD

I am concerned with the hastiness with which a formal amount of tax
will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of has gone into the
arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me the cleverest,
professional way of setting a tax that will directly affect citizens
and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both Consuls
regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the Senate to be
well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With good use of this
information a reasonable tax amount could be set and an accurate
forecast of income could be made among other things. I have not had
a reply to this email.

I have since constructed some questions which I feel would be
appropriate. My initial idea was that these questions would be brief
and not leading. I also feel that this survey would be best
conducted with anonaminity (eek! sp?) in order that response be as
honest as possible. Further in order that as many citizens be
reached and understood as possible the survey would be available in
other languages. I humbly ask the entire Senate to consider this
idea before considering an amount. I am most willing to help in
compiling results from this. Proposed survey questions below, all
citizens feel free to comment about them.

1. How much are you likely to pay to NR in taxes/membership per
annum?
US$5
US$8
US$12
US$20
US$30
other

(My comment): The results of this give important information for
setting a tax amount, if say 2/3 of citizens responding select
amounts on the lower side then if would be advantageous to set an
amount that allowed more citizens to participate in paying tax. More
people paying less is better than fewer paying more.

1a. Why this amount?

2. Would you be willing to pay taxes/membership dues?
yes
no
why/not

3. Would you be able to pay taxes/membership dues?
yes
no

4. How would you like to see tax/membership income best spent?



Thank you for your time.
Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD

Consul Vedius has convened the Senate. The debate shall last from 6
PM pr.
Idus Quinctilis (12 July) to 6 PM a.d. XV Kal. Sextilis (16 July),
and voting
shall end at 6 PM a.d. XIII Kal. Sextilis (18 July). All times are
given in
official Nova Roma time (GMT+1). The agenda follows.
______________________

ITEM VIII. TAXATION

I. Whereas the collection of an annual fee from members is an
activity which is
commonplace in membership organizations such as Nova Roma, which is
currently
legally constituted as such within the United States; and whereas the
collection of annual taxes for the maintenance of the State is
commonplace in
sovereign nations such as Nova Roma aspires and claims to be; and
whereas the
setting of annual fees and taxes is a power granted to the Senate by
the
Constitution of Nova Roma; this Senatus Consultum setting the amount
of taxes
and the means by which they are collected is hereby enacted.

II. Each cive eighteen years of age or older is hereby assessed an
annual tax
of US$12.

III. Taxes are due, paid in full, no later than the last day of
February of the
year.
A. Cives who pay their taxes by this date shall be considered
assidui
according to the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi.
B. Cives who fail to pay their taxes by this date shall be
considered
capiti censi according to the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi.
C. Cives whose applications for Citizenship were approved
between the
first day of December of the previous year and the last day of
February of the
current year shall have their tax burden waived for the current year,
and shall
automatically be considered assidui.
D. The Senate may, at its discretion, issue a Senatus Consultum
extending
the deadline for paying taxes on a provincia-by-provincia basis, in
case of
natural disaster, military conflict, or other extraordinary
mitigating
circumstance. Such deadlines may not be extended past the last day of
August.



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Subject:	[novaroma] Discussion on Marius and Sulla
From:	mp987654@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:42:21 -0000

I agree with Lucius Sicinius Drusus' remarks on Sulla and Marius. I
just wanted to add couple points. I think that it is a well
established fact that Marius became partly insane shortly before he
and Cinna closed on Rome in 85 BC. Plutarch and Caesar both
mention that Marius was "not at his senses" during his terror he
caused in Rome in 85 BC.

Marius also could have had an "extraordinary desire" to become a
consul for the seventh time and thus fulfill the prophecy of
Martha. Maybe it was his desire that caused him to rape Rome in a
gruesomesiege and a five day massacre. Sulla was a great military
leader and yes he was underestimated by Marius. But on his way
trying to surpass Marius he resembled all features of Hitler or
Stalin. Remember his march on Rome and his plundering of the
cities. He ordered his men to rape women before killing them! This
order just had lacked commonsense and purpose.

Sulla is correctly credited for his reformation of the constitution,
establishing permanent criminal courts and increasing the number of
prateors and senators. But what Sulla cared about the most was his
dignitas, keeping his word and surpassing Marius. However, while
doing so, he butchered almost anyone who opposed him. Marius was
simple minded but until his severe strokes (those he suffered during
the civil war), he never resembled the ruthless features of Sulla.

Marius lived to fulfill Martha's prophecy in which he believed so
much. Sulla lived to show the greatness of his dignitas. But what
matters the most, I think, is "how" they lived to achieve this.

Gaius Julius Caesar





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Subject:	[novaroma] (General) Re: By Jupiter, Let Politics Live!
From:	Caius Licinius Macer Gallia <john@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:48:43 -0500

Maximina Octavia wrote:

> Again, there are Yahoo clubs for specific interests. Seeing that Politics determined the Rise and Fall of Rome, I see them as extremely important here. Perhaps you can find a list that discusses only what *you* want to discuss.
> This is a public forum and all aspects of Roman interest should be allowed here.
> Politics is in every aspect of life and I pray to Jupiter that they will forever be on the Main List so that the common and not so common citizens can be a part of the political process instead of ignoring it and allowing it to run itself.
> A more enlightened citizen than I, whose name I do not recall at the moment said (paraphrasing), "Do you not have a delete key on your keyboard?" Can you not skip or delete what does not interest you? If you want to talk about something
> else, start a new thread you think is relevant, ask a question, do you have nothing to contribute?
> Personally, I am a Religio person and I find that this list, The Main List, has it all!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Subject:	[novaroma] thanks (was Res: Hi)
From:	"Titus Martius Laetius" <leonardo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:01:33 -0300

Salve All
Ave Propraetor Marcus Arminius Maior

Im very pleasured to be here, thanks.
If there is anything I can do, as a new citizen, please let me know.

Laetius
ICQ #62885823

>-----Mensagem original-----
>De: M Arminius Maior [mailto:m_arminius@--------]
>Enviada em: quinta-feira, 12 de julho de 2001 14:48
>Para: novaroma@--------
>Assunto: Re: [novaroma] Hi
>
>
>Salve, Laetius
>
>Is a pleasure to say welcome to a new brazilian citizen of Nova Roma.
>
>
>Vale
>Marcus Arminius Maior
>Propraetor Brasiliae





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

I write these lines to show my support for Domna Claudia Auspicata's
proposals. Besides, I would like to point out that it is very important
to provide complete information about what is really going to be done
with the money. Certainly, according to the Constitutio, the Senate has
the right to set taxation. However, if we expect our cives to pay, it
needs to "publicize" the taxation, or else very few people will pay.

--- Domna Claudia Auspicata <comptess@--------> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Domna Claudia Auspicata Senatui et Quiritibus SPD
>
> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a formal amount of tax
> will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of has gone into the
> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me the cleverest,
> professional way of setting a tax that will directly affect citizens
> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both Consuls
> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the Senate to be
> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With good use of this
> information a reasonable tax amount could be set and an accurate
> forecast of income could be made among other things. I have not had
> a reply to this email.
>
> I have since constructed some questions which I feel would be
> appropriate. My initial idea was that these questions would be brief
> and not leading. I also feel that this survey would be best
> conducted with anonaminity (eek! sp?) in order that response be as
> honest as possible. Further in order that as many citizens be
> reached and understood as possible the survey would be available in
> other languages. I humbly ask the entire Senate to consider this
> idea before considering an amount. I am most willing to help in
> compiling results from this. Proposed survey questions below, all
> citizens feel free to comment about them.
>
> 1. How much are you likely to pay to NR in taxes/membership per
> annum?
> US$5
> US$8
> US$12
> US$20
> US$30
> other
>
> (My comment): The results of this give important information for
> setting a tax amount, if say 2/3 of citizens responding select
> amounts on the lower side then if would be advantageous to set an
> amount that allowed more citizens to participate in paying tax. More
> people paying less is better than fewer paying more.
>
> 1a. Why this amount?
>
> 2. Would you be willing to pay taxes/membership dues?
> yes
> no
> why/not
>
> 3. Would you be able to pay taxes/membership dues?
> yes
> no
>
> 4. How would you like to see tax/membership income best spent?
>
>
>
> Thank you for your time.
> Valete
> Domna Claudia Auspicata



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:28:44 +0200

Salvete, senat...(us? ori? I find my latin lacking.)

Please, consider some way of basing taxation on where a given citizen
lives. It's not reasonable to expect a citizen of a third-world nation
to be able to pay as much as one from Sweden, or maybe even to pay at
all.

I'll not go into details, unless you actually want a direct
proposal...ok, I will.

Setting a base taxrate, which is then discussed with each propraetor,
and adjusted for his/her province, wouldn't be a bad idea, in my
opinion. Some provinces might be exempt from taxes altogether, others
would pay twice the base rate, and some might even land solidly on the
base tax.

The best would, of course, be individual taxation, as in all
macronations I'm aware of, but since that would be exceedingly
burdensome, at least provincial tax rates should be set.

Just my opinion, hope you understand the reason for it.

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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