Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:00:15 +1200

Salve L. Sicinio Druse.

While I believe the tax lex in itself to be a large leap forward towards the propserity of Nova Roma, setting an uninformed tax rate would not be. Amulius Claudius Petrus has mentioned including such a survey in a census, this is of course the ideal situation but until a census, if any, gets up and running I believe a short email/web page survey would take no longer than a month, not 3-4 years, after which the Senate could convene with a researched picture of what they can expect citizens to pay, NR to receive, etc.

There has been mention of possible localised financial difficulty. The extent of this can more fully be realised. You have mentioned the proposed US$12 tax rate to be too low, a survey may indeed find that a majority of citizens are willing to pay even more. Throughout the last election opinions for financial priorities were offered, now is the chance to actually find out the reality. For my own situation I believe I can afford it but I can make no general judgement on whether US$12 is too high or too low for citizens to contribute or for Nova Roma to recieve the best return. Can anyone at this point?

Vale bene
Domna Claudia Auspicata
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 12:33 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Taxes


Salve Quirites,

I've seen several recent posts calling the up comming
Senate vote on Taxes "hasty". I disagree. During the
recent debate on the Capti Censi lex several members
of the Senate mentioned that they have been discussing
this idea for YEARS. So are we going to talk about it
for another 3 or 4 years before we do anything?

We have had recent threads talking about acquiring
Islands, about having more events like Roman Days, and
other plans. These things will not only cost money,
but will require a steady source of income for Nova
Roma. Donations are good, but you can't make plans for
the future and hope that there will be enough
donations to cover the costs.

Many plans were suggested during the debates over the
lex earlier this year. The Senate has selected a very
simple plan. A Uniform tax, set at a very low rate,
and is going to vote on this plan.

US $12.00 a year. A dollar a month. A few cents a day.
That's very cheap, and if anything the rate may be too
low. Yet I hear that some may not be able to afford a
little over 3 cents a day. I would suggest that if you
can't afford this modest amount, then you need to
rethink your priorities. You need to be thinking about
an additional source of income instead of reading the
posts on this list.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:49:49 -0400

L. Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:

> I've seen several recent posts calling the up comming
> Senate vote on Taxes "hasty". I disagree. During the
> recent debate on the Capti Censi lex several members
> of the Senate mentioned that they have been discussing
> this idea for YEARS. So are we going to talk about it
> for another 3 or 4 years before we do anything?

Am. Claudius: It is wonderful that we are finely about to implement taxes it
is a great step forward in my opinion. But it is one that must be made
carefully, if not it will inflict more harm then good.

>
> US $12.00 a year. A dollar a month. A few cents a day.
> That's very cheap, and if anything the rate may be too
> low. Yet I hear that some may not be able to afford a
> little over 3 cents a day. I would suggest that if you
> can't afford this modest amount, then you need to
> rethink your priorities. You need to be thinking about
> an additional source of income instead of reading the
> posts on this list.

Am. Claudius: Yes $12.00 a year is very low for cives living in fortunate
places in the world. Although you must realise that you will be closing
doors for cives that do not live in North America, and other countries that
are well off. I feel uneasy about this fact and do not see it being fair
from there point of view. I think taxes at this time in our development
should take the form of a donation. Every citizen that wants full
citizenship privileges must make a donation that is there choice in amount.
This will eliminate many problems and would be fair for all citizens of the
world.

Now I know you may say. "What would a person that can't afford $12 yearly be
doing on the internet?" I agree, it would not take place. But keep in mind
the future. Do we really want to set a trend of closing out groups of people
that live in unfortunate places? I hope a fair solution can be found that
will keep all privileges open to all people. We are building a nation our
actions in the coming years will be reflected forever within the nation we
build. Keep this in mind...





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New Zealand
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:39:32 -0400

Salvete,

I found this snippet from the application of the to be just too cool. Anybody else convulsed with envy?
<<<esp. as it is next to impossible to get new stuff made
since every experienced blacksmith in the N.Z. re-enactment community is
working on the Lord of the Rings!)>>>

Valete,
Helena Galeria
Telerien



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:31:35 -0000

>
> Some intresting ideas regarding lead and Ergot, However I recently
saw
> a PBS program that discussed the Aquaducts (Sorry I can't recall the
> name) and it mentioned that the Romans had problems with mineral
> deposits in the Aquaducts, and had to clear them out to restore the
> full flow. This means that the lead pipes would have quickly gotten
> an internal coat of calcium deposits, which would have provided
> protection from the water comming in direct contact with the lead.

Is it possible that there was something in that chemical mixture that
could also cause some of these symptoms? If Lithium, which is now
used for Manic/Depression, naturally occuring Lead in the ground,
silver or mercury were present, and were mixed in the ground water
which flowed through the aquaduct, it could possibly have caused some
of the symptoms that we are discussing.

Also, each time the pipes were cleared, would there not have been new
Lead introduced into the water supply?
>
> It is also possible that the Romans were fully aware of the effects
> of Ergot, and there is some speculation that a psychedelic Ergot
> mixture may have been the kykeon used in the Eleusinian Mysteries.
> Among those who developed this theory was Dr Albert Hoffman, who
> was the leading expert on Ergot Alkaloids, and the inventer of LSD.
>
> See
> http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/valencic.htm

I can believe that the effects of Ergot were known, as it has been
used for centuries as a medicine, specifically an abortificant as
well as a hallucenigenic (sp?). However, there are other types of
naturally occuring fungi and herbs that have also been used for
centuries that have are now used as recreational drugs (see peyote,
marijuana). These drugs, if available in that era (and I believe
marijuana was, but peyote is, I think, limited to certain areas)could
also have induced psychosis.

Another thought . .

What was wine stored in? Since wine was the normal drink of Rome and
Romans, is it possible that the vats were lined with something akin
to Lead? How would one find out information like this?

Bene Vale (please excuse my Latin, as I am still learning)

Gaia Flacca Severa




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Subject:	[novaroma] LOTR Movie, was Re: New Zealand
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:37:48 -0500

Avete!

Teleri ferch Nyfain wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I found this snippet from the application of the to be just too cool. Anybody else convulsed with envy?
> <<<esp. as it is next to impossible to get new stuff made
> since every experienced blacksmith in the N.Z. re-enactment community is
> working on the Lord of the Rings!)>>>
>
> Valete,
> Helena Galeria
> Telerien
>

An Heathen friend has a part as a featured extra in the fild: King
Theoden's bodyguard before the Gates of Moria.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias, Quæstor et Legate
My homestead
http://www.river-wood-samfelag.org
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re:Roman Psychos
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:41:12 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,

In other words, power magnifies the best and the worst
characteristics of an individual.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar



--- labienus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > I don't know what the historians are saying
> on this subject but my
> > opinion is..excessive power has strange effects on
> weak personalities...
>
> Despite their obvious flaws, I wouldn't classify
> either Marius or Sulla as
> having had a weak personality. One of the points
> Adolph Berle makes in his
> excellent book "Power" is that being in power
> inevitably leads to insanity
> unless one has a very strong ethical and moral
> foundation to stand upon. In
> other words, power has predictable effects on *all*
> personalities, and it takes
> a strongly ethical person (i.e. someone who uses an
> external standard to judge
> his or her actions by) to resist those effects in
> the long term.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
>
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Setting Taxes
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:45:46 EDT

In a message dated 7/12/2001 4:30:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
from@-------- writes:


> Setting a base taxrate, which is then discussed with each propraetor,
> and adjusted for his/her province, wouldn't be a bad idea, in my
> opinion. Some provinces might be exempt from taxes altogether, others
> would pay twice the base rate, and some might even land solidly on the
> base tax.
>

Salvete!
A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
But, I wanted to do this last year. My Quaestor sent a questionnaire to all
the Provincial Praetors asking how much each felt their province could pay.
Why am I laughing? Only two replied and one said nobody in his province
wanted to pay.

So where does this leave us, citizens? Some sort of revenue stream is needed,
and you all are acting like this is first you have heard of it. We have been
discussing this for three years. I spent six months trying to come up with a
figure that was usable for both NR and cheap enough to pay for most citizens.
Twenty dollars is what I found. Consider I belong to 6 historical research
organization and the average annual dues are $60.00. The Company of Military
Historians is 110.

Twelve dollars is too low IMO but when you look at what benefits you get
here, (besides a constant Latin translation and historical resource) that may
be a bargain.

Dues or whatever you want to call them are coming. If we wish to carry out
what we have spoke about on this and other lists we are going to need money,
plain and simple. Donations have fallen quite short.

Next accountability. I find this baffling. You might join a club for 50.00
a year, or one of these adult sites at 29.99 per month. Do you ask these
people for a printout of where your money goes? I doubt it. Do you really
think Senators will steal your money? That villa improvements and swimming
pools are really our long range goals? Wake up citizens. Our goals remain
the same, to build a real Nova Roma, gain respectability among other nations,
and continue research into our spiritual and physical history. For that we
need money, and all will have to pitch in to accomplish that goal.

Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus
Proconsul
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:01:54 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,

I believe that the entire public bath aspect of the
Roman lifestyle must have led to a whole multitude of
health problems. For instance, when the oil was
scraped off of the bodies and deposited onto the floor
it was then scooped up and used to make ointments.
The bath was a hotbead for bacteria especially since
neither soap nor disinfectants were used. I once
became ill after swimming in a very crowded pool one
time that had been treated with a large amount of
cholorine. The deposits of urine (minute or
intentional), residual feces, blood, pus, the water
being exposed to open wounds and infectious diseases
including sexually tranmitted diseases, etc., must
have contributed in some way to the periodic plagues
as well.

Salve,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar
--- radams36@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
> > OOOH!! Good topic.
> >
> > I think that some of the madness that you are
> referencing could be
> > from the lead, but also from a variety of other
> reasons.
> >
> > The grain that was given to the city was, on
> different occasions,
> > tainted, I believe, with ergot. This fungus, from
> which LSD was
> > first synthesized, could cause some of the brain
> damage or madness
> > that you are referencing.
> > I've heard that it had to do with lead being
> > in their
> > > water, but I don't know if it's true. Also, I
> think that some
> > persons have
> > > been villified by sensational "historians"
> (Suetonius), or
> > presented as
> > > literary interesting persons rather than actual
> persons
> (Tacitus).
>
>
> Quite right, citizens, this IS a good topic. The
> ergot poisoning was
> mentioned on a recent 'Secrets of the Dead' (highly
> recommended
> viewing on PBS) in connection with witchcraft
> scares, Salem, Mass. in
> particular. That would be quite plausible.
> In the recent Nova special on recreating a Roman
> bath (which I hope
> everyone got to see - great special), they mentioned
> the lead pipes.
> Both factors could explain a lot about guys like
> Nero and Caligula
> (although subjective history writing is undoubtedly
> common enough,
> too).
>
> Interesting speculations, all.
>
> Regimus Palaeologus
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] mailing list and back ally
From:	Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:44:08 -0700 (PDT)

Salve

I could just be dafted, but I cannot seem to locate
the NovaRomaWebsites mailing list. Also, what is this
back ally site that comes up every-so-often? Where can
these be found.

Thanks

Marcus Bianchius Antonius


snip

> Anyone wishing to discuss changes to the website is
> invited to join the
> mailing list NovaRomaWebSites@-------- The
> Curator and all
> scribes subscribe to that list, and that is where
> any plans will be
> made for enhancing or redesigning the site.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From:	Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:59:00 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

I have just read the tax lex and was also wondering
about the amount. I was wondering how we arrived at
$12 (US). Not that I am unwilling to pay that amount,
but I was wondering where it can from. Is it a debate
starting point or was there a poll I missed?

Thanks

Marcus Bianchius Antonius


--- Domna Claudia Auspicata <comptess@-------->
wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Domna Claudia Auspicata Senatui et Quiritibus SPD
>
> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a
> formal amount of tax
> will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia
> de Assidui et
> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of
> has gone into the
> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me
> the cleverest,
> professional way of setting a tax that will directly
> affect citizens
> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both
> Consuls
> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the
> Senate to be
> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With
> good use of this
> information a reasonable tax amount could be set and
> an accurate
> forecast of income could be made among other things.
> I have not had
> a reply to this email.
>
> I have since constructed some questions which I feel
> would be
> appropriate. My initial idea was that these
> questions would be brief
> and not leading. I also feel that this survey would
> be best
> conducted with anonaminity (eek! sp?) in order that
> response be as
> honest as possible. Further in order that as many
> citizens be
> reached and understood as possible the survey would
> be available in
> other languages. I humbly ask the entire Senate to
> consider this
> idea before considering an amount. I am most
> willing to help in
> compiling results from this. Proposed survey
> questions below, all
> citizens feel free to comment about them.
>
> 1. How much are you likely to pay to NR in
> taxes/membership per
> annum?
> US$5
> US$8
> US$12
> US$20
> US$30
> other
>
> (My comment): The results of this give important
> information for
> setting a tax amount, if say 2/3 of citizens
> responding select
> amounts on the lower side then if would be
> advantageous to set an
> amount that allowed more citizens to participate in
> paying tax. More
> people paying less is better than fewer paying more.
>
> 1a. Why this amount?
>
> 2. Would you be willing to pay taxes/membership
> dues?
> yes
> no
> why/not
>
> 3. Would you be able to pay taxes/membership dues?
> yes
> no
>
> 4. How would you like to see tax/membership income
> best spent?
>
>
>
> Thank you for your time.
> Valete
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
> Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: mailing list and back ally
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 04:46:54 -0000

Ave,

If you go to www.yahoogroups.com and do a search for Nova Roma, you
will have about 50 results for about 50 different email lists. They
are all varied in topic from Provinca lists, Sodalitas lists, Gens
lists, etc.

For the back alley, if you go to www.topica.com/lists/backalley you
will be able to subscribe up to that list.

Hope this helps!

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
wrote:
> Salve
>
> I could just be dafted, but I cannot seem to locate
> the NovaRomaWebsites mailing list. Also, what is this
> back ally site that comes up every-so-often? Where can
> these be found.
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
>
>
> snip
>
> > Anyone wishing to discuss changes to the website is
> > invited to join the
> > mailing list NovaRomaWebSites@-------- The
> > Curator and all
> > scribes subscribe to that list, and that is where
> > any plans will be
> > made for enhancing or redesigning the site.
> >
> > Vale, Octavius.
> >
> > --
> > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> > Curator Araneum et Senator
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Announcement of Senate Agenda
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 04:56:24 -0000

Ave,

This issue has been debated a long time...and the previous amount
that was being discussed was 20.00 American. Our Consuls felt that
was too high so lowered it to 12.00 or 1.00 per month.

The first tax plan that was proposed by Q.Fabius, M. Municius Audens,
and myself had 20.00 and this was way back in 1999. When Consul
Fabius and Audens tried to implement taxes last year the amount was
still 20.00 American (if I recall my facts correctly.) Even 3-4
months ago....20.00 American was still being discussed as the amount
that might be implemented. Though, I do recall Consul Germanicus
repeatedly mentioning 12.00. If one goes back to the archieves one
will see that most of the feedback at the time was overall very
positive.

I personally like 20.00 because its a nice round number. Its easier
to remember and easier to withdraw funds from banks, atms or other
financial institutions. But that is just my personal opinion.

I think we should remember all this talk of buying islands is just a
joke unless we are willing to put our money where our mouths are.
Any other organization of this type requires its members to pay some
fee. This has been pointed out repeatedly by other individuals.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I have just read the tax lex and was also wondering
> about the amount. I was wondering how we arrived at
> $12 (US). Not that I am unwilling to pay that amount,
> but I was wondering where it can from. Is it a debate
> starting point or was there a poll I missed?
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
>
>
> --- Domna Claud--------usp--------a <comptess@-------->
> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Domna Claudia Auspicata Senatui et Quiritibus SPD
> >
> > I am concerned with the hastiness with which a
> > formal amount of tax
> > will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia
> > de Assidui et
> > Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of
> > has gone into the
> > arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me
> > the cleverest,
> > professional way of setting a tax that will directly
> > affect citizens
> > and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both
> > Consuls
> > regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the
> > Senate to be
> > well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With
> > good use of this
> > information a reasonable tax amount could be set and
> > an accurate
> > forecast of income could be made among other things.
> > I have not had
> > a reply to this email.
> >
> > I have since constructed some questions which I feel
> > would be
> > appropriate. My initial idea was that these
> > questions would be brief
> > and not leading. I also feel that this survey would
> > be best
> > conducted with anonaminity (eek! sp?) in order that
> > response be as
> > honest as possible. Further in order that as many
> > citizens be
> > reached and understood as possible the survey would
> > be available in
> > other languages. I humbly ask the entire Senate to
> > consider this
> > idea before considering an amount. I am most
> > willing to help in
> > compiling results from this. Proposed survey
> > questions below, all
> > citizens feel free to comment about them.
> >
> > 1. How much are you likely to pay to NR in
> > taxes/membership per
> > annum?
> > US$5
> > US$8
> > US$12
> > US$20
> > US$30
> > other
> >
> > (My comment): The results of this give important
> > information for
> > setting a tax amount, if say 2/3 of citizens
> > responding select
> > amounts on the lower side then if would be
> > advantageous to set an
> > amount that allowed more citizens to participate in
> > paying tax. More
> > people paying less is better than fewer paying more.
> >
> > 1a. Why this amount?
> >
> > 2. Would you be willing to pay taxes/membership
> > dues?
> > yes
> > no
> > why/not
> >
> > 3. Would you be able to pay taxes/membership dues?
> > yes
> > no
> >
> > 4. How would you like to see tax/membership income
> > best spent?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your time.
> > Valete
> > Domna Claudia Auspicata
> > Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] mailing list and back ally
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:04:01 -0400

Salve Marcus Bianchius,

You can find the website list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaWebSites

This is easier then searching.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Marcus Bianchius Antonius at imperialreign@-------- wrote:

> Salve
>
> I could just be dafted, but I cannot seem to locate
> the NovaRomaWebsites mailing list. Also, what is this
> back ally site that comes up every-so-often? Where can
> these be found.
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius




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Subject:	[novaroma] Government vs. people
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:10:34 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,

I have just been reading the posts pertaining to
certain dignitas and their actions preceeding the
exodus. IMHO the seriousness of a crime should be
based upon the negative impact it has on it's intended
victim or victims. I am frankly very surprised that a
crime as serious as illegally conficating the state
treasure would be looked upon as a misdemeanor. To me
it is an unforgiveable action that should call for
immediate banishment. Can such an individual be
trusted again. One burned, shame on you, twice
burned, shame on me. I personally would not like to
see someone who had violated such a trust handle any
other affairs of state. The ramifications of this
crime are multi-layered. It robs NR of not only it's
revenue but of dreams of what could have been done
with this revenue, it destroys trust of the public in
NR's ability to designate the proper civis to such an
important position, it curtails future monetary gains,
it destroys trust in NR"s ability to effectively
operate, not to mention the anger it creates toward
the parties responsible and in this case civis'
fingers would point straight to NR. I could go on and
on. The seriousness of this crime cannot be
understated. I was not a civi at the time this
happened and I don't know how much money was involved
but that's beside the point. Whether it's $10.00 or
$20.000, it's sacred monies entrusted to NR and given
with the expectations that it will be safe-guarded.
And if an individual cannot be trusted with $10.00 can
he be trusted with $20,000. As our nation grows, so
will the funds and steps should be taken to ensure
that this does not happen again.

Vale,

Pmpeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 01:29:05 -0400

Salvete cives et amici,

More I read the posts concerning the amount of the proposed tax the more I
think there is a simpler and better solution. Why have a fixed tax when you
can let citizens pay an amount that is suitable for them? Why not let them
judge how much they think Nova Roma is worth in there lives? This would be
unlike the donations because it will be under the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
Capiti Censi.

Now I personally have no problem with $12.00 US I would probably even pay
more. But we must not disregard citizens that may have financial difficulty
because of the area they live in. Another great benefit to this is that it
will stop the never ending squabbling over a set tax rate.

We could always encourage citizens to pay larger amounts by offering rewards
like coins and so on. Because we are an, "international organisation" we
must take into consideration citizens from all walks of life.

I hope some may at least consider this proposal before dismissing it.
(grins)

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--







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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Digest Number 1524
From:	sstorm1@--------
Date:	12 Jul 2001 23:49:07 -0600

he wants his name
> changed according to his spiritual gender? Why an
> edict in the first place,
> instead of dealing with the request privately. One
> citizen requesting a
> somewhat special name change,


not necessarily unique, either....



=^.^=

Uriel

[insert disclaimer]
These writings are copyright by the owner.
This isn't entertainment, it's therapy.
No specific interpretation applies, nor
should be inferred.
[/disclaimer]




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Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Roman Psychos
From:	sstorm1@--------
Date:	12 Jul 2001 23:54:05 -0600

S. Appolonius Draco wrote:

>Upon reading about the efficient ruthlessness of Sulla, and Marius' madness,
>I was reminded of many other allegedly mentally ill Romans who were rather
>infamous, such as Nero and Caligula.

I find this statement contemptuous, insensitive, and completely unfounded,
I also take personal offense that Civis Marius is psychotic.

I is thinking along these lines that hurts everybody!
Remember, The Inquisition was started by a bunch of people who thought in similar patterns.
Of this, I'll refrain from saying more.

Decius Cornelius Sepulchatius

=^.^=

Uriel

[insert disclaimer]
These writings are copyright by the owner.
This isn't entertainment, it's therapy.
No specific interpretation applies, nor
should be inferred.
[/disclaimer]




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Subject:	[novaroma] AN admission of apology
From:	sstorm1@--------
Date:	12 Jul 2001 23:56:28 -0600

I wrote DRaco over the main list in anger, and I apologize, I did not realize at the time that he was referrencing historical Romani.
I regret this, please forgive me.

decius cornelius sepulchatius

=^.^=

Uriel

[insert disclaimer]
These writings are copyright by the owner.
This isn't entertainment, it's therapy.
No specific interpretation applies, nor
should be inferred.
[/disclaimer]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re:Roman Psychos
From:	"Kanat Elibol" <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:10:51 -0000

Avete...
By no means I count Marius and Sulla among the insane rulers of
Rome...How could I?One was a great general and the other in my
opinion was a great mind!And sometimes when you remove the flaws
of one's character you can not find the same man...
Valete...
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
--------------------------------------------------------------
> Salvete
>
> > I don't know what the historians are saying on this subject
but my
> > opinion is..excessive power has strange effects on weak
personalities...
>
> Despite their obvious flaws, I wouldn't classify either Marius or
Sulla as
> having had a weak personality. One of the points Adolph Berle
makes in his
> excellent book "Power" is that being in power inevitably leads to
insanity
> unless one has a very strong ethical and moral foundation to stand
upon. In
> other words, power has predictable effects on *all* personalities,
and it takes
> a strongly ethical person (i.e. someone who uses an external
standard to judge
> his or her actions by) to resist those effects in the long term.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AN admission of apology
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 02:02:17 -0700 (PDT)

--- sstorm1@-------- wrote:
> I wrote DRaco over the main list in anger, and I
> apologize, I did not realize at the time that he was
> referrencing historical Romani.
> I regret this, please forgive me.
>
> decius cornelius sepulchatius
>
> =^.^=
>
> Uriel
>
Salve,
Passion adds flavor to the mundane.. Please,
do not feel like you should hold back. WRITE WHAT YOU
FEEL! I'm sure Draco would agree... Eh, Drac?

SEMPER FIDELIS, Sept.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Setting Taxes
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 02:15:01 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,
20. U.S. dollars for this cause is a more
than reasonable tax. Not only will it legitimize us
even more so.. It will go to our future as a nation.
Although we cannot hand out "bread to the
people" as was done in this beautiful culture's
history.
Those of us who are very generous, may even help those
who cannot afford this tax. We should put our money
were our mouth is and REALLY support the future of
Nova Roma.
Not with simple words. But by ACTION!

Semper Fidelis, A. Corvus Septimius


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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 02:19:30 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Omnes,

Some of may have noticed that in addition to the item
about taxes, that I have applied to the Senate to be
the Propraetor of America Austrorientalis. Shortly
after I made my application one of the Senators
contacted me because he wanted to make sure that I
knew that this job would entail some expenses on my
part, and that I would be able to afford to hold
office.

Citizens, I can easily afford to pay the costs, and
will consider it a donation. However there may be some
other citizens who would make good magistrates, but
can't afford the costs of holding office. As long as
we don't have taxes we have an unwritten lex that sets
minium incomes to hold offices in our republic.

I intend to be active. This means I will be making
long distance phone calls, and sending out mailings.
This will cost money, and I am budgeting $ 50.00 a
month to cover this. Think about that. If the Senate
anoints me, then I will be taxing myself at $ 600.00 a
year.

Now I hear that some citizens will not be able to
afford $ 12.00. Then in effect these citizens, and a
great many more are barred from holding office by that
unwritten lex that requires a certain income.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying to
recover the costs that I will be incurring. I will NOT
apply for reimbursement, and consider it a donation to
Nova Roma.

As long as we don't have taxes, we will have limits on
who can hold office, and what they will be able to do
once they get in office.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Psychos
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 06:00:58 -0400

Salvete,

Roman and Psycho in the same sentence? I have my own little theory on this
I'll share with you all. Personally, I don't think they were psycho,more or
less ego maniacs that let paranoia climax and get the best of them. Now with
being "psycho" it would have a level of perversion involved, and from
everything that I have read most of the 'fruitcakes' didn't have that. So
who really knows, and watch this is now a "closed" topics I didn't get to
chime in on fast enough.

Valete,
Aeternia


>From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Roman Psychos
>Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:04:09 +0200
>
>Salvete,
>
>Upon reading about the efficient ruthlessness of Sulla, and Marius'
>madness,
>I was reminded of many other allegedly mentally ill Romans who were rather
>infamous, such as Nero and Caligula. Or the paranoid Domitianus. And
>possibly countless others. The question is, why where they so? Other
>histories have had their proper fruitcakes as well, but why were so many
>Romani so psychpathic. I've heard that it had to do with lead being in
>their
>water, but I don't know if it's true. Also, I think that some persons have
>been villified by sensational "historians" (Suetonius), or presented as
>literary interesting persons rather than actual persons (Tacitus). And
>let's
>not forget the later christian interpretations; some christians saw the
>Roman Empire as the Evil Empire (and Nero as the antichrist). But even so,
>if it's an exaggeration, why were they so insane?
>
>Valete bene,
>Draco
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem III Idus Quinctilias (July 13th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:40:36 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can vote
on political or criminal matters.

Today the Ludi Apollinares end with the aniversary of the temple of Apollo
Medicus. This is the oldest temple of Apollo in Rome, dedicated in 431 BCE
on account of the consultation of the Sibylline Books during a plague. This
temple lays in the Campus Martius between the Circus Flaminius and the Forum
Holitorium. It is thus outside the 'pomerium' since it is a foreign (in this
case Greek) cult. If this is the same temple restored by Sosius in September
23, 32 BCE, it became known as the temple of Apollo Sosianus. It also
received a porticus in 179 AD. The temple contained several famous works of
art and was used by the Senate for meetings outside the 'pomerium'. It may
have been the only temple of Apollo in Rome before Augustus built another
one on the Palatine Hill.

The month of Quinctilis is sacred to Iuppiter. It was renamed Iulius in 44
BCE in honour of the
deified C. Iulius Caesar.


Di vos bene ament

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:50:31 +0200

"L. Sicinius Drusus" wrote:
> Now I hear that some citizens will not be able to
> afford $ 12.00. Then in effect these citizens, and a
> great many more are barred from holding office by that
> unwritten lex that requires a certain income.
>
> Do not make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying to
> recover the costs that I will be incurring. I will NOT
> apply for reimbursement, and consider it a donation to
> Nova Roma.
>
> As long as we don't have taxes, we will have limits on
> who can hold office, and what they will be able to do
> once they get in office.

Salvete, L. Sicini Druse et omnes.

If we get taxes, that lex will not be unwritten any longer. The recent
lex on the consequences of failure to pay ones' taxes, lex Vedia de
assidui et capiti censi, will then prevent anyone with insufficient
means to pay tax from holding office. I've said it before, and I say it
again, I don't approve of part 3C of that lex, for this reason. I don't
want to keep hard-working citizens away from offices, simply because
they haven't paid their taxes.

As consul Marcus Cassius Julianus said, serving in public office isn't
all glamour, it's an honor and a duty, and a lot of effort is involved.
If someone is willing to dedicate a year of his/her life to serving Nova
Roma, and the people supports him/her in this, shouldn't that person be
allowed to do so, with or without having paid his taxes?

But since that lex isn't up for debate at the moment, I'll stop
discussing it, and just remind you of it's existence. With this taxation
method, poor people will be kept even more surely from positions of
power than they already are, and this will be supported by an existant
lex.

Therefore, all who read this, please consider the possibility of a more
individual taxation. Not all citizens have equal opportunities to pay
taxes, and in my opinion, any legislation on taxation should reflect
this, just as it does in macronations.

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	[novaroma] ITEM IX. DISPOSITION OF TAXES TO PROVINCIA
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:18:24 +0200

>Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD
>
>Consul Vedius has convened the Senate. The debate shall last from 6 PM pr.
>Idus Quinctilis (12 July) to 6 PM a.d. XV Kal. Sextilis (16 July), and voting
>shall end at 6 PM a.d. XIII Kal. Sextilis (18 July). All times are given in
>official Nova Roma time (GMT+1). The agenda follows.
>______________________
>
>ITEM IX. DISPOSITION OF TAXES TO PROVINCIA
>
>I. Those individuals charged with the collection of taxes shall maintain a
>record of what amounts were raised in each provincia, and such records will be
>provided to the Senate no later than the Idus of April.
>
>II. One half of all taxes raised within a particular provincia shall be
>designated to be spent within the boundaries of that provincia.
> A. Such funds shall be kept in the central treasury, as managed by the
>Consular Quaestors, and shall be disbursed by the Quaestors to local
>authorities as authorized in the annual budget.
> B. The annual budget, as prepared, shall reflect such designated funds,
>whether or not they are actually budgeted to be spent within the year.
> C. Funds designated to be spent within a provincia which are not spent
>within the fiscal year, shall roll over to the next year, and such information
>shall be reflected in the annual budget.
> D. The Senate may, in times of emergency, use funds designated for use
>within a given provincia. Such funds shall be replaced within three calendar
>years by funds from the central treasury.
>
>III. This Senatus Consultum shall apply only to annual taxes, and shall not be
>deemed to apply to other funds which may be collected during the course of a
>year, including but not limited to voluntary donations and other fees
>which may
>be imposed.
>

Salvete Omnes!

I have questions about this proposed Senatus Consultum. Sadly enough there
is little or no time to discuss this issue before the Senate shall make
their decision. It may be that I haven't read it thoroughly enough or...

Does the proposal mean that we shall collect the taxes in, for example,
Europe and then send them to the central treasury in, for example, USA
deducting the costs and then later if the European provincia ask for these
money have them sent back to Europe while deducting the costs?

Could it be this way? The sums are just invented they could be lower or higher.

Collection of Taxes in Italia = $12 => USA (if the central treasury is
there) - costs = $3. A half year later => Italia - costs = $3, Sum that is
left $6. Isn't this a unneccessary waste? Or have I missed something?


Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:20:52 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> "L. Sicinius Drusus" wrote:
> > Now I hear that some citizens will not be able to
> > afford $ 12.00. Then in effect these citizens, and a
> > great many more are barred from holding office by that
> > unwritten lex that requires a certain income.
> >
> > Do not make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying to
> > recover the costs that I will be incurring. I will NOT
> > apply for reimbursement, and consider it a donation to
> > Nova Roma.
> >
> > As long as we don't have taxes, we will have limits on
> > who can hold office, and what they will be able to do
> > once they get in office.
>
> Salvete, L. Sicini Druse et omnes.
>
> If we get taxes, that lex will not be unwritten any longer. The
recent
> lex on the consequences of failure to pay ones' taxes, lex Vedia de
> assidui et capiti censi, will then prevent anyone with insufficient
> means to pay tax from holding office. I've said it before, and I
say it
> again, I don't approve of part 3C of that lex, for this reason. I
don't
> want to keep hard-working citizens away from offices, simply because
> they haven't paid their taxes.

Salvete Tite Octavi et Omnes

Yes it is true that citizens who can't afford US $12.00 will be
barred from office, but they are allready barred from any office that
has costs as low as US $ 1.00 a month. In addition to these very poor
citizens we are now barring people people from offices who can afford
the US $12.00, but can't afford to spend US $25.00 a month to cover
the costs of holding that office.

As Nova Roma continues to grow, the costs of holding offices will
continue to grow, and we will see a smaller and smaller percentage of
our citizens who will be able to afford to hold offices.

Once we have taxes in place, it will become possible, at some future
date, for Nova Roma to start paying some of these costs. The result
will be More citizens who will be able to run for office, not fewer
citizens.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Setting Taxes
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:51:14 -0500

Avete,

For the past three years of my association with Nova Roma, I have paid a
self-imposed tax upon the Kalends of Quintilis.

I put aside US$1.00 per week. So under a US$12.00 rate, with paying for
my Gens members, I'll still be ahead a few dollars a year.

I support the measure.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives et Paterfamilias
My homestead
http://www.river-wood-samfelag.org
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Subject:	[novaroma] Caesar
From:	mp987654@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:45:39 -0000

Please note that today is the birthday of Gaius Julius Caesar, the
Dictator.

Gaius Julius Caesar





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Subject:	[novaroma] INTHE NAME OF VENUS BACCHUS AND ZEUS UNSUBSCRIBE ME!
From:	marie-therese le roux <kuberkat@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:48:03 -0700 (PDT)

--- novaroma@-------- wrote:
> There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Re: Government vs People? (far too
> long)
> From: Antonius Corvus Septimius
> <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
> 2. Re: Website problems/coolness
> From: Amulius Claudius Petrus
> <pkkt@-------->
> 3. Roman Psychos
> From: "S. Apollonius Draco"
> <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
> 4. Re: Re: is anyone working on a
> project?-taking up a thread(2)
> From: margali <margali@-------->
> 5. Re: Re: Government vs People? (far too
> long)
> From: "S. Apollonius Draco"
> <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
> 6. Tribuni et Edicta?
> From: labienus@--------
> 7. Re: Roman Psychos
> From: mansker@--------
> 8. Meeting on July 20
> From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> <alexious@-------->
> 9. Re:Roman Psychos
> From: Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
> <kelibol@-------->
> 10. Re: Announcement of Senate Agenda
> From: "Domna Claudia Auspicata"
> <comptess@-------->
> 11. Discussion on Marius and Sulla
> From: mp987654@--------
> 12. RE: Tribuni et Edicta?
> From: "Carlos Gonzalez" <karl@-------->
> 13. Re: Re:Roman Psychos
> From: labienus@--------
> 14. thanks (was Res: Hi)
> From: "Titus Martius Laetius"
> <leonardo@-------->
> 15. (General) Re: By Jupiter, Let Politics
> Live!
> From: Caius Licinius Macer Gallia
> <john@-------->
> 16. RE: Re: Roman Psychos
> From: "Carlos Gonzalez" <karl@-------->
> 17. Re: Announcement of Senate Agenda
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> <salixastur@-------->
> 18. RE: Re: Roman Psychos
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> <salixastur@-------->
> 19. Re: Roman Psychos
> From: radams36@--------
> 20. Announcement of Senate Agenda
> From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
> 21. Re: Announcement of Senate Agenda
> From: Amulius Claudius Petrus
> <pkkt@-------->
> 22. Re: Roman Psychos
> From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@-------->
> 23. Taxes
> From: "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@-------->
> 24. Re: Roman Psychos
> From: mansker@--------
> 25. Re: New Zealand
> From: "Teleri ferch Nyfain"
> <rckovak@-------->
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:56:31 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Antonius Corvus Septimius
> <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
> Subject: Re: Re: Government vs People? (far too
> long)
>
>
> > DRACO: To officialize something is often a
> > rationalization in itself. I
> > think this thread has been thoroughly addressed by
> > Fortunatus.
>
> Septimius: the same may be said of embellishment.
> Good point Draco, why continue this thread?
> Unless speculations of one's intentions are being
>
> tread upon.
>
>
> >
> > DRACO: What did he lie about? I'm not certain what
> > you're talking about
> > here? I'm not going backwards. If you want to
> stick
> > the term impersonation
> > (which is usually used in espionage affairs or
> other
> > political conflicts),
>
> Septimius:
> Impersonation is also used in plays & satyr.Shall we
> pick which definition is best suited for this
> thread?
> As long as it serves your needs.. correct?
>
> > then I could say Nerva impersonated Apollo! Is
> that
> > not blasphemy?
>
> Septimius:
> Blasphamy is for another topic. Stay whithin the
> lanes
> in which you care to drive in.
>
>
>
>
>
> > DRACO: Ah, and I suppose it's Marius' fault too
> that
> > he wants his name
> > changed according to his spiritual gender? Why an
> > edict in the first place,
> > instead of dealing with the request privately. One
> > citizen requesting a
> > somewhat special name change,
>
> Septimius: No, its not Marius' fault. But something
> that should have been thought of in the first
> place..
> If it was that important.And why should it be kept
> private? Do you have something against other's
> sexual
> preferenses?
> I dont believe that it was somehting that should've
> been kept in the dark.For the simple fact that there
> is nothing to be ashamed of.But it seems that you
> are
> implying this.
>
> and all this fuss
> > about it. I could and can
> > hardly believe it.
>
> Septimius:
> All this fuss? You are refering to the one in which
> you are contributing to, correct?
>
>
> > > Sulla: It should have never BEEN an issue in
> the
> > first place which is
> > > my point. One should have a loyalty to the
> State,
> > espeically when one
> > > has been given responsiblity by the state.
>
>
> > DRACO: Reading the above, I am not surprised that
> > some people think of you
> > as a totalitarian. I think loyalty to your
> personal
> > principles are more
>
> Septimius: From what I have just read in the above
> statements. Censor Sulla, would be held in high
> regard
>
> in the Roman Senate. After all, it is S.P.Q.R.
> correct? One in the same.. And as I read your
> previous
> posts (Draco) on this subject. Your loyalty to your
> personal principlesseem to be in the
> forefront.Censor
> Sulla at least mentions the respect he has for his
> position as a representative of the laws & people of
> Nova Roma.
>
>
> Semper Fidelis, A. Corvus
> Septimius
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
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>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:07:20 +0200

Salvete Quirites (or should I say Quirite$),

First off, I will agree that 12$ is a very low amount, and within the reach
of most members, save for the poor members (fourth world). But as I said, I
would first like to see procedures set in place for those who are in the
inability to pay, be it as an amendment to the Lex Vedia de A et CC, or be
it as an edictum or senatusconsultum. And another nicety might be to not
require Rogatores and Quaestores to pay, as they are doing jobs that are
generally unpopular.

Secondly, I think the main problem in countries like, for example, Russia or
Chili, will be the transportation of the money. Most western and northern
Europeans (and an increasing number of southern and eastern Europeans) has a
credit or debit card, but not everyone will have one. In those
aforementioned countries, it's not a common matter to possess one, so the
money would have to be sent in some way. The costs of sending it would
actually be higher than the actual amount, or in any way would increase the
total sum of money spent on it. Not to mention the dangers of loss of money
underway.

Valete bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:36:56 US/Central

Salvete

> I believe that the entire public bath aspect of the
> Roman lifestyle must have led to a whole multitude of
> health problems.

This is an interesting point. I've heard it said that the most important
medical advance in history was the adoption of regular bathing. I wonder if
the public baths cured more problems than they caused, or vice versa. Perhaps
they were just "a wash".

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus





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Subject:	Nitpicking (was Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:21:58 +0200

Salvete Senatores,

Excuse me my nitpicking, but I wanted to correct a small mistake that has
been commonly made in NR.

> II. Each cive eighteen years of age or older is hereby assessed an annual
tax
> of US$12.
>

The singular of the word "cives" (citizens) is "civis".

Valete bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AN admission of apology
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:26:26 +0200

Salve Deci Corneli,

> I wrote DRaco over the main list in anger, and I apologize, I did not
realize at the time that he was referrencing historical Romani.
> I regret this, please forgive me.
>
> decius cornelius sepulchatius

Oh, no problem :).

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Government vs. people
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:28:51 +0200

Salve Pompeia Antonia,

> I have just been reading the posts pertaining to
> certain dignitas and their actions preceeding the
> exodus. IMHO the seriousness of a crime should be
> based upon the negative impact it has on it's intended
> victim or victims. I am frankly very surprised that a
> crime as serious as illegally conficating the state
> treasure would be looked upon as a misdemeanor. To me
> it is an unforgiveable action that should call for
> immediate banishment.

They did it after they left. So what do you propose? Damnatio Memoriae?

> Can such an individual be
> trusted again. One burned, shame on you, twice
> burned, shame on me. I personally would not like to
> see someone who had violated such a trust handle any
> other affairs of state. The ramifications of this
> crime are multi-layered. It robs NR of not only it's
> revenue but of dreams of what could have been done
> with this revenue, it destroys trust of the public in
> NR's ability to designate the proper civis to such an
> important position, it curtails future monetary gains,
> it destroys trust in NR"s ability to effectively
> operate, not to mention the anger it creates toward
> the parties responsible and in this case civis'
> fingers would point straight to NR. I could go on and
> on.

Legally, money was embezzled from Nova Roma's treasury, namely donations
from British citizens (most likely those who left). They probably saw it as
taking back what was theirs. While I don't agree with this viewpoint, we
shouldn't act as if they stole money that had never been theirs in the first
place.

> The seriousness of this crime cannot be
> understated. I was not a civi at the time this
> happened and I don't know how much money was involved
> but that's beside the point. Whether it's $10.00 or
> $20.000, it's sacred monies entrusted to NR and given
> with the expectations that it will be safe-guarded.

Since when is money sacred? Nothing could be less sacred than money. There
was, according to Censor Sulla, 500$ involved. I agree that money should be
safeguarded. I really wonder, by the way, how it was embezzled. It must have
been fairly easy to do so, which makes me suspicious about the protection of
tax money.

> And if an individual cannot be trusted with $10.00 can
> he be trusted with $20,000. As our nation grows, so
> will the funds and steps should be taken to ensure
> that this does not happen again.
>

I agree.

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	[novaroma] Considering closing my Gens
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:42:55 EDT

Salvete,
I have a dilemma that I really would appreciate some feed back. I
have been a member of NR for along time. I joined when you mailed in the
requests for membership. After several futile attempt to find a Gene willing
to return e-mails let alone consider admitting me. I gave up and founded my
own.

I support many of the changes that are coming to NR such as taxation
and better monitoring of the gens. We need income, and we have to start
someplace. So $12 is as good as any to start with. but I know that the other
two friends/members of my gens are not that interested at this time. One
lives far away and one did it think she would like it but doesn't have the
time right now. Neither one has contributed as far as I know so I don't think
other than body count we are losing anything. I have never had anyone
approach me to join so again no loss there either.

If I close my gens I will need a new home and I would prefer one that
would expects something of me. I have an inclination to domestic arts and
practices but as any good Roman I am versed in many things. If you are a
Mater or Pater of an active Gens how do I find you? How would you prefer I
approach you?

I haven't any qualms about closing my gens if it in the long run
improves my NR experience. So any thoughts would be greatly appreciated
either on the list or privately off line.

Prima Anncina Drusila



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AN admission of apology
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:46:06 +0200

Salve Antoni Corve,

> Salve,
> Passion adds flavor to the mundane.. Please,
> do not feel like you should hold back. WRITE WHAT YOU
> FEEL! I'm sure Draco would agree... Eh, Drac?
>

We all make mistakes sometimes, don't we; even you, my friend ;-). Errare
humanum est.

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:18:43 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Omnes,

I have been fundraising for two organizations for
several years and because of the time and effort I had
given and out of pocket expenses I incurred which I
never asked any reimbursement for, I was never asked
to donate the mandatory yearly subscription dues. I
really appreciated this since my own voluntary
donations and expenses far exceeded the annual dues.
Such things should be taken into consideration. There
will be many volunteers who can donate time but not
funds. Is their time and effort worth more than
$12.00? Whenever I have done a public event I have
always comped those that have given me much help. I
felt their efforts were worth more than the price of a
ticket since without their help I probably wouldn't
have had as successful of an event and as lucrative.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar



--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Some of may have noticed that in addition to the
> item
> about taxes, that I have applied to the Senate to be
> the Propraetor of America Austrorientalis. Shortly
> after I made my application one of the Senators
> contacted me because he wanted to make sure that I
> knew that this job would entail some expenses on my
> part, and that I would be able to afford to hold
> office.
>
> Citizens, I can easily afford to pay the costs, and
> will consider it a donation. However there may be
> some
> other citizens who would make good magistrates, but
> can't afford the costs of holding office. As long as
> we don't have taxes we have an unwritten lex that
> sets
> minium incomes to hold offices in our republic.
>
> I intend to be active. This means I will be making
> long distance phone calls, and sending out mailings.
> This will cost money, and I am budgeting $ 50.00 a
> month to cover this. Think about that. If the Senate
> anoints me, then I will be taxing myself at $ 600.00
> a
> year.
>
> Now I hear that some citizens will not be able to
> afford $ 12.00. Then in effect these citizens, and a
> great many more are barred from holding office by
> that
> unwritten lex that requires a certain income.
>
> Do not make the mistake of thinking that I'm trying
> to
> recover the costs that I will be incurring. I will
> NOT
> apply for reimbursement, and consider it a donation
> to
> Nova Roma.
>
> As long as we don't have taxes, we will have limits
> on
> who can hold office, and what they will be able to
> do
> once they get in office.
>
> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> __________________________________________________
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>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

I really have to laugh at this one. No disrespect
intended, but how many would pay voluntarily? How
many are paying voluntarily now? Unfortunately when
it comes to parting with the contents of one's pocket
book, we need more than an honor system.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar



--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
wrote:
>
> Salvete cives et amici,
>
> More I read the posts concerning the amount of the
> proposed tax the more I
> think there is a simpler and better solution. Why
> have a fixed tax when you
> can let citizens pay an amount that is suitable for
> them? Why not let them
> judge how much they think Nova Roma is worth in
> there lives? This would be
> unlike the donations because it will be under the
> Lex Vedia de Assidui et
> Capiti Censi.
>
> Now I personally have no problem with $12.00 US I
> would probably even pay
> more. But we must not disregard citizens that may
> have financial difficulty
> because of the area they live in. Another great
> benefit to this is that it
> will stop the never ending squabbling over a set tax
> rate.
>
> We could always encourage citizens to pay larger
> amounts by offering rewards
> like coins and so on. Because we are an,
> "international organisation" we
> must take into consideration citizens from all walks
> of life.
>
> I hope some may at least consider this proposal
> before dismissing it.
> (grins)
>
> "Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum
> mater ab vitualis"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is
> often the mother of virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
> Canada Orientalis Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
>
> Gens Claudia Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
> --
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Government vs. people
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:46:12 -0700 (PDT)

Vale Draco,

Excuse my ignorance of the details. I was not a civi
as the time and I was going only go by the information
I read on the posts. It seemed as thought a certain
individual treated this matter lightly and I was
acting out of my emotions. Perhaps I used a poor
choice of a word to describe money as sacred but to
many what comes out of their pocket book is has great
value not in itsef but for what it represents. I
consider a donation as a trust in that organization
and a confidence that it will be spent wisely. I have
been fundraising for several years and have seen what
bad financial management can do to an organization
when it's members start questioning what is being done
with the funds. Such supsicions are probably always
going to be possessed by some individuals but in a
good organization not the majority of members. I am
in no way comparing my experience with this other
organization to NR which has been very positive so
far. My long point is that scandal of this sort
really does much more damage than you can imagine.
Call me a worrier but I prefer to address problems
while they are still small. What will prevent this
from happening when annual taxes will be entrusted to
individuals? Will they be bonded?

Respectfully,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar


--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> Salve Pompeia Antonia,
>
> > I have just been reading the posts pertaining to
> > certain dignitas and their actions preceeding the
> > exodus. IMHO the seriousness of a crime should be
> > based upon the negative impact it has on it's
> intended
> > victim or victims. I am frankly very surprised
> that a
> > crime as serious as illegally conficating the
> state
> > treasure would be looked upon as a misdemeanor.
> To me
> > it is an unforgiveable action that should call for
> > immediate banishment.
>
> They did it after they left. So what do you propose?
> Damnatio Memoriae?
>
> > Can such an individual be
> > trusted again. One burned, shame on you, twice
> > burned, shame on me. I personally would not like
> to
> > see someone who had violated such a trust handle
> any
> > other affairs of state. The ramifications of this
> > crime are multi-layered. It robs NR of not only
> it's
> > revenue but of dreams of what could have been done
> > with this revenue, it destroys trust of the public
> in
> > NR's ability to designate the proper civis to such
> an
> > important position, it curtails future monetary
> gains,
> > it destroys trust in NR"s ability to effectively
> > operate, not to mention the anger it creates
> toward
> > the parties responsible and in this case civis'
> > fingers would point straight to NR. I could go on
> and
> > on.
>
> Legally, money was embezzled from Nova Roma's
> treasury, namely donations
> from British citizens (most likely those who left).
> They probably saw it as
> taking back what was theirs. While I don't agree
> with this viewpoint, we
> shouldn't act as if they stole money that had never
> been theirs in the first
> place.
>
> > The seriousness of this crime cannot be
> > understated. I was not a civi at the time this
> > happened and I don't know how much money was
> involved
> > but that's beside the point. Whether it's $10.00
> or
> > $20.000, it's sacred monies entrusted to NR and
> given
> > with the expectations that it will be
> safe-guarded.
>
> Since when is money sacred? Nothing could be less
> sacred than money. There
> was, according to Censor Sulla, 500$ involved. I
> agree that money should be
> safeguarded. I really wonder, by the way, how it was
> embezzled. It must have
> been fairly easy to do so, which makes me suspicious
> about the protection of
> tax money.
>
> > And if an individual cannot be trusted with $10.00
> can
> > he be trusted with $20,000. As our nation grows,
> so
> > will the funds and steps should be taken to ensure
> > that this does not happen again.
> >
>
> I agree.
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] About the "embezzlement" issue
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:03:30 EDT

In a message dated 7/13/2001 9:10:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

Salvete
About the "embezzlement" issue:

Draco: They did it after they left. So what do you propose? Damnatio Memoriae?

QFM: Well there's a thought. .

> Antonia: Can such an individual be
> > trusted again. One burned, shame on you, twice
> > burned, shame on me. I personally would not like to
> > see someone who had violated such a trust handle any
> > other affairs of state. The ramifications of this
> > crime are multi-layered. It robs NR of not only it's
> > revenue but of dreams of what could have been done
> > with this revenue, it destroys trust of the public in
> > NR's ability to designate the proper civis to such an
> > important position, it curtails future monetary gains,
> > it destroys trust in NR"s ability to effectively
> > operate, not to mention the anger it creates toward
> > the parties responsible and in this case civis'
> > fingers would point straight to NR. I could go on and
> > on.
>
> Draco: Legally, money was embezzled from Nova Roma's treasury, namely
> donations from British citizens (most likely those who left). They probably
> saw it as
> taking back what was theirs. While I don't agree with this viewpoint, we
> shouldn't act as if they stole money that had never been theirs in the first
> place.

QFM: If I may, we are dealing with speculation now, and we should tread
carefully.
Fact: When Moravius resigned his office of Propraetor of Britannia, he had
been collecting taxes for my pilot program. How much of actually was his,
and how much was from the citizens of Britannia is part of the speculation.
I never received an accounting. The sum of $500 was bandied around by
several people. Now I assume that is in US funds, pounds were never
mentioned.

>
> Antonia: The seriousness of this crime cannot be
> understated. I was not a civi at the time this
> happened and I don't know how much money was involved
> but that's beside the point. Whether it's $10.00 or
> $20.000, it's sacred monies entrusted to NR and given
> with the expectations that it will be safeguarded.
>
> Draco: Since when is money sacred? Nothing could be less sacred than money.
> There was, according to Censor Sulla, 500$ involved. I agree that money
> should be
> safeguarded. I really wonder, by the way, how it was embezzled. It must have
> been fairly easy to do so, which makes me suspicious about the protection of
> tax money.
>

QFM: If I may, the bank account was Moravius' own, so naturally it was easy
to get the money


> Antonia: As our nation grows, so
> > will the funds and steps should be taken to ensure
> > that this does not happen again.
>

We are setting up the CAL Province bank account, independent of the Proconsul.
Therefore if the current Proconsul goes insane, (looking at a popular thread
this AM about Roman magistrates and insanity) he will not be able to touch
the money.
I think all Provinces should use this safeguard. The financial Quaestor
believes bonding will help as well.

So did Moravius leave with NR monies? It appears so, however the bulk might
have been his, and it was his bank account. How should he have handled it?
I would have taken my money back, and given the rest to the central treasury.
However I caution you all that we do not know how easy that would have been
in Britannia, so the opportunity may never have been there.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Government vs. people
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:24:11 -0000

Salve,

Draco -

I would like to point out that the following statement, to me, at
least, does not give a person a reason to steal.


> Legally, money was embezzled from Nova Roma's treasury, namely
> donations from British citizens (most likely those who left). They
> probably saw it as taking back what was theirs. While I don't agree
> with this viewpoint, we shouldn't act as if they stole money that
> had never been theirs in the first place.
>

By this statement, if I went into a restaurant and stole back the
money that I used to pay for my meal, it would be perfectly justified.

Just a thought.

Bene Vale,

Gaia Flacca Severa




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Subject:	[novaroma] Tax Concerns
From:	"Navarra Reid" <optabilis@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:20:52 -0600

Salve Omnes:

I would like to say that I support both of my gens members, Domna Claudia
Auspicata and Amulius Claudius Petrus.

I am also concerned that Domna's e-mail were ignored. Some kind of response
would have been appropriate even if it were not a positive one.

Appia Claudia Indagatrix
Materfamilias Gens Claudia
Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis)


Salvete cives et amici,

I am also concerned with the hastiness of this proposed tax. Earlier there
was talk of a national census. It only seems natural that this should come
before a tax is organised. Within this census you could ask questions
related to the proposed tax, much like the ones written up by fellow claudii
Domna. It would also be good practice for organising an efficient tax
system. You could learn much by seeing how the information is to be gathered
and processed. In many ways it could help perfect the system that is
proposed without doing much harm. Another benefit of a census is that we
could finally get a feeling of how many cives "still" support the national
mission (still active). Other cives could probably come up with many more
benefits but I am just trying to get the general idea out.

I agree this nation needs to have a tax, although you really should look at
the general feeling of Nova Roma's populace before implementing it. I hope
you will see the sense behind this proposal and take advantage of all the
positives a census could offer to the proposed tax.


Domna Claudia Auspicata <comptess@--------> wrote:
>>
>> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a formal amount of tax
>> will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
>> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of has gone into the
>> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me the cleverest,
>> professional way of setting a tax that will directly affect citizens
>> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both Consuls
>> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the Senate to be
>> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With good use of this
>> information a reasonable tax amount could be set and an accurate
>> forecast of income could be made among other things. I have not had
>> a reply to this email.







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Subject:	At the restaurant (was Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs. people)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 20:33:07 +0200

Salve Gaia Flacca,

(Quirites, excuse me for my overabundancy of postings today -- next week you
won't hear from me, I promise ;-))

>
> I would like to point out that the following statement, to me, at
> least, does not give a person a reason to steal.
>
>
> > Legally, money was embezzled from Nova Roma's treasury, namely
> > donations from British citizens (most likely those who left). They
> > probably saw it as taking back what was theirs. While I don't agree
> > with this viewpoint, we shouldn't act as if they stole money that
> > had never been theirs in the first place.
> >
>
> By this statement, if I went into a restaurant and stole back the
> money that I used to pay for my meal, it would be perfectly justified.
>
> Just a thought.
>

An interesting thought. But I think there's a difference. In a restaurant,
you get food in return for your money. NR is, quite literally, a non profit
organization. Therefore, you get nothing in return for a donation to NR for
yourself -- it goes to the common good. Besides, if you look into the
original posting, I said that I wouldn't agree with this viewpoint anyway.

Vale bene!
Draco




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:25:55 -0000

> > Quite right, citizens, this IS a good topic. The ergot poisoning
was
> > mentioned on a recent 'Secrets of the Dead' (highly recommended
> > viewing on PBS) in connection with witchcraft scares, Salem,
Mass. in
> > particular. That would be quite plausible.
> > In the recent Nova special on recreating a Roman bath (which I
hope
> > everyone got to see - great special), they mentioned the lead
pipes.
> > Both factors could explain a lot about guys like Nero and
Caligula
> > (although subjective history writing is undoubtedly common
enough,
> > too).
> >
> > Interesting speculations, all.
> >
> > Regimus Palaeologus
>
> Salve,
>
> Some intresting ideas regarding lead and Ergot, However I recently
saw
> a PBS program that discussed the Aquaducts (Sorry I can't recall the
> name) and it mentioned that the Romans had problems with mineral
> deposits in the Aquaducts, and had to clear them out to restore the
> full flow. This means that the lead pipes would have quickly gotten
an
> internal coat of calcium deposits, which would have provided
> protection from the water comming in direct contact with the lead.
>
> It is also possible that the Romans were fully aware of the effects
of
> Ergot, and there is some speculation that a psychedelic Ergot
mixture
> may have been the kykeon used in the Eleusinian Mysteries. Among
those
> who developed this theory was Dr Albert Hoffman, who was the leading
> expert on Ergot Alkaloids, and the inventer of LSD.
>
> See
> http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/valencic.htm
>
> Also think of this. If Suetonius and Tacitus had written a history
of
> the 20th Century for ancient Romans, they would have wondered what
was
> in our water and food to cause so many insane rulers!
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

Salvete!

You're dead-on target, in fact, the Roman Bath special also mentioned
the calcification of the pipes: a beneficial thing, although the
early Romans did not know it. The periodic cleaning and the natural
flaws in the calcification would no doubt have made this an imperfect
situation, but it could have been a LOT worse than it was.

Vale,

Regimus Palaeologus





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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Digest Number 1525
From:	"Navarra Reid" <optabilis@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:40:57 -0600

Salvete Lucius Cornelius Sulla et alii:

I'm glad that you send this historical background message on the topic of
taxes. I also would be willing to pay 12$ US (18$ CND). I think what
worries me most is finding out a year from now that if 12$ US is good, then
20$ US is better and the next year that 40$ US is even better and so on
(without regard to inflation). It somewhat relieving to hear that the
opposite has indeed happened!

You have to remember also that the Canadian dollar rarely gets stronger.
What is 18$ today could be 24$ tomorrow (well, okay, maybe not THAT fast).

Appia Claudia Indagatrix
Materfamilias Gens Claudia
Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis)


Message: 10
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 04:56:24 -0000
From: "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Subject: Re: Announcement of Senate Agenda

Ave,

This issue has been debated a long time...and the previous amount
that was being discussed was 20.00 American. Our Consuls felt that
was too high so lowered it to 12.00 or 1.00 per month.

The first tax plan that was proposed by Q.Fabius, M. Municius Audens,
and myself had 20.00 and this was way back in 1999. When Consul
Fabius and Audens tried to implement taxes last year the amount was
still 20.00 American (if I recall my facts correctly.) Even 3-4
months ago....20.00 American was still being discussed as the amount
that might be implemented. Though, I do recall Consul Germanicus
repeatedly mentioning 12.00. If one goes back to the archieves one
will see that most of the feedback at the time was overall very
positive.

I personally like 20.00 because its a nice round number. Its easier
to remember and easier to withdraw funds from banks, atms or other
financial institutions. But that is just my personal opinion.

I think we should remember all this talk of buying islands is just a
joke unless we are willing to put our money where our mouths are.
Any other organization of this type requires its members to pay some
fee. This has been pointed out repeatedly by other individuals.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix






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Subject:	[novaroma] Expansion and Taxes
From:	Caius Licinius Macer Gallia <john@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:06:07 -0500

I realize that Nova Roma is founded, and primarily attainable, in the
meta-world of the Internet. Rather than focusing on that, though, we
should be looking to the outlying communities for expansion membership.
I am a member of the SCA as well, and we actively search out new
members. This is done through public performances, oration, education
programs, and varying outreach. One of the requirements of our priests
(in NR) is that they perform and establish local ritual and
temple/altars. Let's use this to extend our presence. We do *not* need

to be only WWW, we can be local. If only one person in the immediate
area has access to the 'net, then so be it. That person may become the
regional governor and liason.

I feel the issue of taxation is a good one. We need to begin procuring
monies for activities and various expenditures. It was asked, "Where
would the treasury be?" What would people think of using the Forum for
collecting taxes. Rather than sending those regional forum taxes in
immediately, maintain a local vault of funds for the use of the Region.
Then, when a call for taxes (at the end of February) occurs, the
requisite amount can be sent in to the Imperial Treasury. This might go

a long ways to smoothing over animosity that might be created by
immediately sending taxes to Nova Roma superior. It would show that we
are interested in developing and supporting our local citizens.

This is an idea not simply formed by me, but by others in this area
interested in Nova Roma. Two persons have expressed their interest in
joining, but only if they now that there will be a local interest from
the Senate, rather than the entire empire first. Remember we are here
to rebuild. This requires appeasing new citizens, and creating a bright

star for future citizens.

C. Licinius Macer Gallia





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Subject:	[novaroma] Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	demipagan@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 16:24:17 -0000

Somebody pointed out the problem of calcium deposits building up in
the aqueducts, and argued that this meant that lead entering the
drinking water wouldn't be a problem. Don't be so sure of that.

Calcium deposition (at a point on the surface of the pipe) will be
favored by a slowing in the flow of water past that point. The entry
of lead in the water, however, will be due to the erosion of the
slowly corroding surface. That process will be favored by an increase
in the speed of the water.

Conclusion : deposition will occur, but in all the wrong places. The
more useful a deposit would be at a given point, for protecting the
water from lead contamination, the more slowly it would form.





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:39:28 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I believe that the entire public bath aspect of the
> Roman lifestyle must have led to a whole multitude of
> health problems. For instance, when the oil was
> scraped off of the bodies and deposited onto the floor
> it was then scooped up and used to make ointments.
> The bath was a hotbead for bacteria especially since
> neither soap nor disinfectants were used. I once
> became ill after swimming in a very crowded pool one
> time that had been treated with a large amount of
> cholorine. The deposits of urine (minute or
> intentional), residual feces, blood, pus, the water
> being exposed to open wounds and infectious diseases
> including sexually tranmitted diseases, etc., must
> have contributed in some way to the periodic plagues
> as well.
>
> Salve,
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesar

Salvete!

Points well taken - they had also mentioned most of these factors on
the Nova special. Pretty nasty and septic, as we now know.

For a worse example, try a description of how President Garfield's
doctors and medical advisors almost certainly killed him, as
Guiteau's shot was a far from mortal one. Considering how
incompetently they handled Garfield, even given their more limited
knowledge, it's a wonder he survived as long as he did!

Vale,

Regimus Palaeologus





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Subject:	[novaroma] Questions
From:	"Titus Martius Laetius" <leonardo@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:09:38 -0300

Salve!

Should English be the only language at this list?
Is there some other list for portuguese/brazilian citizens?
Is there a problem with being novaroma citizen and another micronation at
the same time?

Laetius





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tax Concerns
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT)

Avete,

I, too have to agree on this. I believe the tax issue
and amount proposed needs to be presented to the
populace for their feedback. Let us not be accused of
being hasty in any of our legal actions, espcially one
that has generated so much debate. However there
should be a deadline given to encourage civis to
decide one way or the other.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

--- Navarra Reid <optabilis@--------> wrote:
> Salve Omnes:
>
> I would like to say that I support both of my gens
> members, Domna Claudia
> Auspicata and Amulius Claudius Petrus.
>
> I am also concerned that Domna's e-mail were
> ignored. Some kind of response
> would have been appropriate even if it were not a
> positive one.
>
> Appia Claudia Indagatrix
> Materfamilias Gens Claudia
> Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae
> Occidentalis)
>
>
> Salvete cives et amici,
>
> I am also concerned with the hastiness of this
> proposed tax. Earlier there
> was talk of a national census. It only seems natural
> that this should come
> before a tax is organised. Within this census you
> could ask questions
> related to the proposed tax, much like the ones
> written up by fellow claudii
> Domna. It would also be good practice for organising
> an efficient tax
> system. You could learn much by seeing how the
> information is to be gathered
> and processed. In many ways it could help perfect
> the system that is
> proposed without doing much harm. Another benefit of
> a census is that we
> could finally get a feeling of how many cives
> "still" support the national
> mission (still active). Other cives could probably
> come up with many more
> benefits but I am just trying to get the general
> idea out.
>
> I agree this nation needs to have a tax, although
> you really should look at
> the general feeling of Nova Roma's populace before
> implementing it. I hope
> you will see the sense behind this proposal and take
> advantage of all the
> positives a census could offer to the proposed tax.
>
>
> Domna Claudia Auspicata <comptess@--------> wrote:
> >>
> >> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a
> formal amount of tax
> >> will be set following the passing of the Lex
> Vedia de Assidui et
> >> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know
> of has gone into the
> >> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to
> me the cleverest,
> >> professional way of setting a tax that will
> directly affect citizens
> >> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed
> both Consuls
> >> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow
> the Senate to be
> >> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay.
> With good use of this
> >> information a reasonable tax amount could be set
> and an accurate
> >> forecast of income could be made among other
> things. I have not had
> >> a reply to this email.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 19:18:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, demipagan@m... wrote:
> Somebody pointed out the problem of calcium deposits building up in
> the aqueducts, and argued that this meant that lead entering the
> drinking water wouldn't be a problem. Don't be so sure of that.
>
> Calcium deposition (at a point on the surface of the pipe) will be
> favored by a slowing in the flow of water past that point. The entry
> of lead in the water, however, will be due to the erosion of the
> slowly corroding surface. That process will be favored by an
increase
> in the speed of the water.
>
> Conclusion : deposition will occur, but in all the wrong places. The
> more useful a deposit would be at a given point, for protecting the
> water from lead contamination, the more slowly it would form.

The US EPA released a study in the late 1980's regarding Lead in
drinking water. The cause in this case was the lead based solder used
to connect copper pipes. Lead does not readly disolve in water. The
EPS recomendation was to let the water run for a minute, to clear the
laed out, because it was prolonged contact that caused the lead salts
to leach out. A higher rate of flow in fact reduces the contact time
resulting in a lower chance of lead in the water.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:36:12 -0400

Salve Pompeia Antonia Caesar,

It is hardly voluntarily! This would be under the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
Capiti Censi. Therefore by law any citizen that does not pay there personal
amount will not be able to run for office and will have very little say in
public affairs. We can always encourage higher "tax donations" by offering
benefits to those who take part in them. This could be in the form of
citizens who donate over $25.00 will receive a free citizenship certificate,
or more century points, and so on. Hope you have a better understanding now
of my proposal.

Donec infra,


"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


on 7/13/01 12:27 PM, PompeiaAntoniaCaesar at europamoon7@-------- wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I really have to laugh at this one. No disrespect
> intended, but how many would pay voluntarily? How
> many are paying voluntarily now? Unfortunately when
> it comes to parting with the contents of one's pocket
> book, we need more than an honor system.
>









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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	demipagan@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 19:53:34 -0000

Sigh. Lucius, you need to think about what you are saying, more
carefully. Note that I said "erosion", not dissolution. On a
microscopic level, in response to corrosion, the interior surface
of the lead pipe is becoming friable. One might say, it is taking
on a fractal form. Small flakes will break off, and remain in
suspension, conveniently available for your consumption and
subsequent poisoning. You do know the difference between a suspension
and a solution, I assume ?

Increasing the speed of the water has not reduced the lead
concentration in the water. On the contrary, for the first few
moments, it will greatly INCREASE the concentration of lead in the
water, as those delicate little projections of lead into the fluid
are broken off by the turbulent current. It will be these that you
consume, if you take your drinking water from the tap immediately
after turning the faucet, and initiating fluid flow.

Think of it this way. Go to a bookshelf that hasn't been visited for
a while. There's a nice, thick layer of dust over everything. Now,
direct a fan at the shelf. Does the concentration of dust in the air
go up, or down in response to the breeze from the fan ? Now, let's
say that you have a friend who has a bad dust allergy. Do you tell
him to come right away, or do you ask him to wait for a bit ?

The question answers itself, doesn't it ? You tell him to wait for a bit, until the dust blows away. In the short term, the supply of dust is limited, and the cloud of dust will dissipate. It doesn't follow, on the other hand, that using a stronger fan, would have resulted in a thinner cloud of dust, initially. Quite the contrary, it would have been thicker. This much is everyday experience, and so I refer you to it. Your mistake, here, is to confuse a transient effect, with a long term one.

Antistoicus





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Subject:	At the restaurant (was Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs. people)
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 20:49:37 -0000

Salve Draco . .

That's fair, and I understand your not buying into this idea anyway.

However, I feel that I get a lot from NovaRoma, and I would say that
anything that I donated or gave was giving me something for my money,
but that's just my thoughts.

Nice to hear from you, anyway. How's Belgium?

Bene!

Gaia

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Salve Gaia Flacca,
>
> (Quirites, excuse me for my overabundancy of postings today -- next
week you
> won't hear from me, I promise ;-))
>
> >
> > I would like to point out that the following statement, to me, at
> > least, does not give a person a reason to steal.
> >
> >
> > > Legally, money was embezzled from Nova Roma's treasury, namely
> > > donations from British citizens (most likely those who left).
They
> > > probably saw it as taking back what was theirs. While I don't
agree
> > > with this viewpoint, we shouldn't act as if they stole money
that
> > > had never been theirs in the first place.
> > >
> >
> > By this statement, if I went into a restaurant and stole back the
> > money that I used to pay for my meal, it would be perfectly
justified.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
>
> An interesting thought. But I think there's a difference. In a
restaurant,
> you get food in return for your money. NR is, quite literally, a
non profit
> organization. Therefore, you get nothing in return for a donation
to NR for
> yourself -- it goes to the common good. Besides, if you look into
the
> original posting, I said that I wouldn't agree with this viewpoint
anyway.
>
> Vale bene!
> Draco




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 20:54:33 -0000

>
> Salvete!
>
> Points well taken - they had also mentioned most of these factors
on
> the Nova special. Pretty nasty and septic, as we now know.
>
> For a worse example, try a description of how President Garfield's
> doctors and medical advisors almost certainly killed him, as
> Guiteau's shot was a far from mortal one. Considering how
> incompetently they handled Garfield, even given their more limited
> knowledge, it's a wonder he survived as long as he did!


Salvete!

Good point, since Garfield died of infection and septicemia, rather
than the gun shot.

Gaia Flacca Severa




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AN admission of apology
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:16:09 -0700 (PDT)

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> Salve Antoni Corve,
>
> > Salve,
> > Passion adds flavor to the mundane..
> Please,
> > do not feel like you should hold back. WRITE WHAT
> YOU
> > FEEL! I'm sure Draco would agree... Eh, Drac?
> >
>
> We all make mistakes sometimes, don't we; even you,
> my friend ;-). Errare
> humanum est.
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco
>
Draco,
yes, I make mistakesss. And I will continue
to do so! Even ones I have no idea in having been
made.And dont call me your friend, unless you have the
honor
(j/k) of buying me a drink! Or introducing me to some
very lovely ladies.
;-)
Semper Fidelis, Sept.



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes (and Special Thanks)
From:	"b1abkj64" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 05:32:38 -0400

Salvete Omnes: Well, I am back from vacation, and hopefully will have no major computer problems as well for a while. (I still have some minor ones, annoying!!)
I would like to sincerely thank Propraetrix Pompeia Cornelia Strabo for her and her family's great hospitality towards my sons and I during a visit to their home while we travelled up to northern Ontario, Canada. A Roman style feast with homemade wine and a toast to Ceres, Bacchus, and Vulcanus, who are closely connected with our Provincia was proceeded and followed by talk of all things Roman and discussion of the Fort Malden event coming up the weekend of Aug. 4 on the Canadian side of the border on the Detroit river. (Hope to see many Nova Romans from the U.S.) :-)
As far as taxes go, I appreciate Draco's suggestion that Rogatores and Quaestores and others who dedicate their time and expense to work for Nova Roma be exempt from taxes. Thankyou Draco for your suggestion.
However, speaking for my self, I realized when I ran for Rogatore that their would be costs and work involved in the position, and willingly accepted that fact. I do not ask nor expect compensation from the treasury for what I see as simply doing my part to contibute to my adopted nation of Nova Roma. Nova Roma gave me citizenship, and the people elected me to my position. I feel it an honour to be able to serve her and the people, in site of the Gods and Goddesses. I have already sent money in.
Of course there will be some who would find magisterial positions financially difficult to hold, and for these, there could perhaps be compensation for expenses, if so decided. I believe there should be for those who a truly dedicated. And also some sort of tax scale, for those who are poorer. How we will decide who the truly poor citizens are will have to be determined.
Valete: Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogatore, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canada Orientalis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:43:47 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, demipagan@m... wrote:
> Sigh. Lucius, you need to think about what you are saying, more
> carefully. Note that I said "erosion", not dissolution. On a
> microscopic level, in response to corrosion, the interior surface
> of the lead pipe is becoming friable. One might say, it is taking
> on a fractal form. Small flakes will break off, and remain in
> suspension, conveniently available for your consumption and
> subsequent poisoning. You do know the difference between a
suspension
> and a solution, I assume ?
>
> Increasing the speed of the water has not reduced the lead
> concentration in the water. On the contrary, for the first few
> moments, it will greatly INCREASE the concentration of lead in the
> water, as those delicate little projections of lead into the fluid
> are broken off by the turbulent current. It will be these that you
> consume, if you take your drinking water from the tap immediately
> after turning the faucet, and initiating fluid flow.
>
> Think of it this way. Go to a bookshelf that hasn't been visited for
> a while. There's a nice, thick layer of dust over everything. Now,
> direct a fan at the shelf. Does the concentration of dust in the air
> go up, or down in response to the breeze from the fan ? Now, let's
> say that you have a friend who has a bad dust allergy. Do you tell
> him to come right away, or do you ask him to wait for a bit ?
>
> The question answers itself, doesn't it ? You tell him to wait for
a bit, until the dust blows away. In the short term, the supply of
dust is limited, and the cloud of dust will dissipate. It doesn't
follow, on the other hand, that using a stronger fan, would have
resulted in a thinner cloud of dust, initially. Quite the contrary,
it would have been thicker. This much is everyday experience, and so
I refer you to it. Your mistake, here, is to confuse a transient
effect, with a long term one.
>
> Antistoicus

And if the fan were constantly blowing across the books, there would
be very little dust on them.

If the water is constantly flowing, as in the case of the fountains
that Romans got water from the only change in water speed is a very
slow increase as the pipe calcifies.

The lead pipe story is just another example of historians looking for
the magic bullet that killed Roma, and like a lead pipe with a hole
in it, it dosen't hold water.

Drusus





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Latin Language
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:32:48 -0700 (PDT)

"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> wrote:
Salvete Senatores,

Excuse me my nitpicking, but I wanted to correct a small mistake that has
been commonly made in NR.

> II. Each cive eighteen years of age or older is hereby assessed an annual
tax
> of US$12.
>

The singular of the word "cives" (citizens) is "civis".

Valete bene,
Draco


Salve Draco,

By any chance do you or could you teach Latin at Nova Roma?

This would be a good way for you to pay your taxes if Nova Roma were willing to see it as such.

BTW, it appears as though you have the intelligence, time and energy.

Personally, I could sure use the help.

Vale, Maximina



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Subject:	[novaroma] vox populi, vox dei
From:	"Drusus Claudius" <edgar@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:11:11 -0000

Salve Omni:

A while ago, me and Galia Claudia were discussing some topics
regarding the 'Plebeyan' and 'Patrician' issues...and we came up with
some ideas about it.

The basic modern concept of 'Democracy' means 'an equal participation
of every member of a social structure', among other things.

now, NovaRoma is (quote from the NR site)
'..Dedicated to the restoration of Classical Roman religion, culture,
and virtues..'

So, if we are to restore the classical Roman principles, we would
have to start by obeying the original roman rules.

The word 'Patrician' comes from 'Pater', Father, Founder.

The word 'Plebeyan' applies to people with little or no education..
to the 'common' people. (Vulgo)

So, we can say that Patricians were the oldest families of Rome, the
founders, those who saw it grow, and helped it grow as well. This is
not all: a Patrician *had* to be a model; those who were educated in
the Arts of War, Body, Mind, Foreign Languages, etc, were obligated
to be an example to the society. Patricians had privileges, but they
also had more obligations to accomplish. You couldnt demand a
Plebeyan the same responsability like to a Patrician.
Patrician could 'critizise' because they had the 'knowledge'.

A grosso modo:

We would have to find among the ppl of NR the ideal 'criteria'
and 'knowledge'; from there, we could choose our 'Patricians'.

Now, if we want NR to behave as a modern 'democracy', then we would
have to use the 'patrician' and 'plebeyan' distinctions in a symbolic
way, and let anyone be part of the system.

Or, we could even assing specific duties to each gens: some gens to
the political issues, others to the family issues, war, commercial
affairs, religion, etc.

I hope I didn't hurt anyone with my comments.

Please forgive my bad english.

Vale,

Drusus Claudius & Galia Claudia







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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tax Concerns
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:54:30 -0700 (PDT)

Navarra Reid <optabilis@--------> wrote:
Salve Omnes:

I would like to say that I support both of my gens members, Domna Claudia
Auspicata and Amulius Claudius Petrus.

I am also concerned that Domna's e-mail were ignored. Some kind of response
would have been appropriate even if it were not a positive one.

Appia Claudia Indagatrix
Materfamilias Gens Claudia
Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis)


Domna Claudia Auspicata wrote:
>>
>> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a formal amount of tax
>> will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
>> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of has gone into the
>> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me the cleverest,
>> professional way of setting a tax that will directly affect citizens
>> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both Consuls
>> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the Senate to be
>> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With good use of this
>> information a reasonable tax amount could be set and an accurate
>> forecast of income could be made among other things. I have not had
>> a reply to this email

Salvete,

I, for one, will answer your e-mail. I have no power or position to help however.

I agree. Do a poll. I have a wager on the amount that will win. Also, remember this, if you start the taxes as low as possible, it is a lot easier to raise them later without a lot of serious public outcry. Perhaps a Roman riot could be avoided by the $12 tax which I believe the majority of Nova Romans can afford.

Valete, Maximina








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Subject:	[novaroma] Toga Help
From:	"b1abkj64" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:04:14 -0400

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

I can see from my previous post that I should type slower, and check my spelling and grammer.:-)
During our trip north, I picked up almost a whole bolt of wool cloth, and would like to get a toga made. Since the toga changed in size and style and shape over the many centuries it was worn, I was wondering if anyone would have any idea on the size and shape of a toga for the late Republican period about 80 - 25 B.C.E.?
Also if sections must be sewn together, what direction should the seam run, and what type would the seam be? Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Multas gratias tibi ago. ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogatore
Procurator, Provincia Canada
Orientalis


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Subject:	[novaroma] In touch with the People
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:08:45 +1200

Domna Claudia Auspicata Quiritibus SPD

It appears another debate on the various issues surrounding taxation has begun. Of course, I'm sure I had nothing...er...to do with that ;-) Anyhow a can of worms, or perhaps denarii has been opened and will continue to be reopened as long as a few people try to make uninformed decisions affecting a swelling population. Do not misunderstand me, I have faith in our Senate to do the best they can for Nova Roma, but I ask do they know what Nova Roma wants? It has been mentioned a few times now that a tax lex has been discussed for 3 or so years. The idea has finally come to fruition with the last election by the people. Wonderful! Various tax amounts, US$20, US$12 have been also debated over the last couple of years. Now to me this is the most vital part of the process: the amount citizens will pay and therefore the amount NR will recieve. Nova Roma has grown immensely since a few years ago. My concern is that the Senate risk losing touch with a great portion of NR (and possibilites for its future direction) if methods are not in place to gauge real general citizen opinion. The proposed amount for a tax is the first serious case where public research would have been of great benefit. There has mention that we all have the same goals, US$** is a reasonable amount for the majority to pay, etc. I find it impossible to believe that a few people can know how the almost 1000 People want to pursue these goals, how much they can pay when little has been done to get the real facts. In this case it is probably too late to hold a poll/survey that would have taken no more than a month to wrap up. The tax set now will be needlessly entirely experimental. I can only hope that in the future there is a system set in place that will allow the Senate even greater insight to aid in their decisions.

Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata


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