Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:08:45 -0700 (PDT)

--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote:
> Salve Pompeia Antonia Caesar,
>
> It is hardly voluntarily! This would be under the
> Lex Vedia de Assidui et
> Capiti Censi. Therefore by law any citizen that does
> not pay there personal
> amount will not be able to run for office and will
> have very little say in
> public affairs.

Pompeia: This is assuming that every citizen is
interested in running for office and wants active say
in public affairs. Will non tax-paying citizens be
allowed to vote?

We can always encourage higher "tax
> donations" by offering
> benefits to those who take part in them. This could
> be in the form of
> citizens who donate over $25.00 will receive a free
> citizenship certificate,
> or more century points, and so on.

Pompeia: I agree with this wholeheartedly. There
should be some benefits to joining NR and incentives
as well. Evey successful organization offers this.
Personally I would be happy to have a certificate for
my $25.00. Paid Memberships could offer discounts on
NR merchandise, free newsletter, etc. depending on the
amount donated.

Hope you have a
> better understanding now
> of my proposal.

Pompeia: Yes, I do. Thank you.

Vale,
Pompeia Antonia Caesar

>
> Donec infra,
>
>
> "Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum
> mater ab vitualis"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is
> often the mother of virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
> Canada Orientalis Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
>
> Gens Claudia Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
> --
>
>
> on 7/13/01 12:27 PM, PompeiaAntoniaCaesar at
> europamoon7@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I really have to laugh at this one. No disrespect
> > intended, but how many would pay voluntarily? How
> > many are paying voluntarily now? Unfortunately
> when
> > it comes to parting with the contents of one's
> pocket
> > book, we need more than an honor system.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Toga Help
From:	"Julie & Lawrence Brooks" <anubis@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:16:28 -0400

Ave
Try this site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORV/files/
it has instructions on Togas

Laurencius Casius
La Wrens Nest

----- Original Message -----
From: b1abkj64
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:04 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Toga Help

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

I can see from my previous post that I should type slower, and check my spelling and grammer.:-)
During our trip north, I picked up almost a whole bolt of wool cloth, and would like to get a toga made. Since the toga changed in size and style and shape over the many centuries it was worn, I was wondering if anyone would have any idea on the size and shape of a toga for the late Republican period about 80 - 25 B.C.E.?
Also if sections must be sewn together, what direction should the seam run, and what type would the seam be? Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Multas gratias tibi ago. ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogatore
Procurator, Provincia Canada
Orientalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	demipagan@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:51:34 -0000

Yes, Lucius, I am sure that there are historians who will look for
a "magic bullet" that killed the Romans, but I am not a historian.
I am an engineer, and have spend more than a little time studying
Chemistry and Materials Science. So, when I speak to you about this
subject, I do know whereof I speak. I may even know a little more
than somebody who grabbed a government pamphlet in a library, and
glanced through it. You never know.

Yes, increasing the speed that the water passes by the lead will
decrease the interaction time available per molecule, but it also
increases the number of molecules passing per unit time. As a very
good rule of thumb, the latter will matter far more than the former,
at the relatively low speeds that we're talking about. As one
increases the speed of the incoming molecules, eventually the kinetic
energy of the mater molecule relative to the lead would be enough to
snap molcular bonds; however, it is rather doubtful that even modern
piping would survive fluid flow at those speeds, much less ancient,
even had the Romans been able to produce a fluid flow that fast.
Which, of course, they couldn't, having only gravity to work with.

Now, before we continue with the Physical Chemistry lesson, Lucius,
what is your technical background ? I need to know how to pitch this
explanation, when I get back from Dad's birthday party.

Antistoicus

PS. Contrary to your statements on the matter, the effect of a
reduction of channel cross-sectional area would be a reduction
in speed, not an increase. Drag increases, but since this is
a gravity driven system, pressure is relatively unchanged. There
is no pump, shoving the water column forward from behind. All
there is, in the case of a home water supply, is a really big
sluice leading up to the piping. Were one to drop a side sluice
to the house, there would be a small increase in the pressure driving
the fluid flow, as water at the entrance deepened, but not enough
to overcome the drag. Again, going down the same gradient, which
do you see moving more quickly, a river or a brook ?

In the case of deposition formation, let us remember that the calcium
supply in an unit volume of water is very small. Measurable deposits
are the product of the passage of a great deal of water passing
through. Indefinitely standing water won't do it, no matter how long
you wait. The relevant consideration here, is not what the transient
behavior is, but what the relative rates of reaction are, during
the intervals when activity picks up.

Let us understand something before we go on, sir. This is not a
debate. Physics and Chemistry are hard sciences. Unlike the case with Philosophy, Art or Politics, the only two sides here are the right side, and the wrong side, and we're traveling well-tested ground here. There is absolutely nothing under discussion at this point, that wouldn't be simple to handle with a numerical simulation. (Did I mention that one of my degrees is in Mathematics ? :) Another is in Physics. Give me a little while, on one of my current research projects, and I'll be able to eliminate the little o's in the convergence arguments, and give you hard bounds on the approximation errors with one run of the simulation, without need for repetition). As my all-too-tight schedule allows, I'll be happy to explain this to you. But, let's not go into this thinking that there is a real controversy, because there isn't.

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Subject:	[novaroma] VIRUS APOLOGIES
From:	Prometheus <fresco@-------->
Date:	Mon, 09 Jul 2001 14:46:08 +0200

I'm sorry, but in the last messages sent by my computer there was a
virus.
Neither messages or viruses were sent intentionally by me, but instead
automatically.
I was infected by e-mail, by a very malicious virus, I-WORM BADTRANS.
I could not believe it because I never open unsolicited attachments!
SORRY, really sorry.
Now the problem has been solved The Outlook software for internet
discarded (and substituted by Netscape) and the computer de-virused.
My sinceres apologies.
Marcus Prometheus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest 1524
From:	"william wheeler" <holyconelia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:25:25 -0000

Message: 23
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:33:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Subject: Taxes

Salve Quirites,

I've seen several recent posts calling the up comming
Senate vote on Taxes "hasty". I disagree. During the
recent debate on the Capti Censi lex several members
of the Senate mentioned that they have been discussing
this idea for YEARS. So are we going to talk about it
for another 3 or 4 years before we do anything?

We have had recent threads talking about acquiring
Islands, about having more events like Roman Days, and
other plans. These things will not only cost money,
but will require a steady source of income for Nova
Roma. Donations are good, but you can't make plans for
the future and hope that there will be enough
donations to cover the costs.

Many plans were suggested during the debates over the
lex earlier this year. The Senate has selected a very
simple plan. A Uniform tax, set at a very low rate,
and is going to vote on this plan.

US $12.00 a year. A dollar a month. A few cents a day.
That's very cheap, and if anything the rate may be too
low. Yet I hear that some may not be able to afford a
little over 3 cents a day. I would suggest that if you
can't afford this modest amount, then you need to
rethink your priorities. You need to be thinking about
an additional source of income instead of reading the
posts on this list.

MCF: i would check out the pay rates in Russa and others
you like like $12 a month!( yes there are people who work all day and get
only $12 a month.)

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

Marcus Cornelius Felix
Pontitff
Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
Gens Sacerdos Cornelia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] In touch with the People
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 19:00:04 -0700 (PDT)

Avete,

If I look at the tax situation more as a donation to a
non-profit organization, that somehow changes the
picture for me. I really don't even like the word
'tax'. Every organization asks for donations from it's
members. Why should we and why would we be any
different? We need money just as badly as any other
organization. How will we ever grow without it? Let's
please ask ourselves this question. It is necessary
for us. But I would like to see an outline as to what,
specifically the taxes would go for and I would like
to see laid out plans even if just for the coming
year. It would be very exciting to see this and
rewarding.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

--- Domna Claudia Auspicata <comptess@-------->
wrote:
> Domna Claudia Auspicata Quiritibus SPD
>
> It appears another debate on the various issues
> surrounding taxation has begun. Of course, I'm sure
> I had nothing...er...to do with that ;-) Anyhow a
> can of worms, or perhaps denarii has been opened and
> will continue to be reopened as long as a few people
> try to make uninformed decisions affecting a
> swelling population. Do not misunderstand me, I
> have faith in our Senate to do the best they can for
> Nova Roma, but I ask do they know what Nova Roma
> wants? It has been mentioned a few times now that a
> tax lex has been discussed for 3 or so years. The
> idea has finally come to fruition with the last
> election by the people. Wonderful! Various tax
> amounts, US$20, US$12 have been also debated over
> the last couple of years. Now to me this is the
> most vital part of the process: the amount citizens
> will pay and therefore the amount NR will recieve.
> Nova Roma has grown immensely since a few years ago.
> My concern is that the Senate risk losing touch
> with a great portion of NR (and possibilites for its
> future direction) if methods are not in place to
> gauge real general citizen opinion. The proposed
> amount for a tax is the first serious case where
> public research would have been of great benefit.
> There has mention that we all have the same goals,
> US$** is a reasonable amount for the majority to
> pay, etc. I find it impossible to believe that a
> few people can know how the almost 1000 People want
> to pursue these goals, how much they can pay when
> little has been done to get the real facts. In this
> case it is probably too late to hold a poll/survey
> that would have taken no more than a month to wrap
> up. The tax set now will be needlessly entirely
> experimental. I can only hope that in the future
> there is a system set in place that will allow the
> Senate even greater insight to aid in their
> decisions.
>
> Valete
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Toga Help
From:	"b1abkj64" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:05:34 -0400

Salve Laurenci Casi: Thankyou for the hyper-link, but when I click on it Yahoo gives me the message "Oops... There is no group called ROMANISROMANORV"
Vale, ... A. Cato

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Toga Help
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:12:48 -0500

Salve Cato

> Salve Laurenci Casi: Thankyou for the hyper-link, but when I click on it Yahoo gives me the message "Oops... There is no group called ROMANISROMANORV"

It should probably be ROMANISROMANORVM.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious."
-Chateaubriand

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits (was: Roman Psychos)
From:	"b1abkj64" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:20:47 -0400

Salvete: The subject of lead piping in Ancient Rome is interesting from another perspective, because it appears that some, if not most Romans, were aware of the dangers to health of lead. Ceramic piping was recommended over lead by certain Romans because of the problem.
As pointed out in another post, where the water was running continuously, the water would not be in contact with the piping long enough to make a significant difference. But where the water was sitting in the piping and then used for drinking there would almost certainly be a long term exposure problem, but it appears that the Romans were aware of the problem with lead.
Valete, ... A. Cato

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: VIRUS APOLOGIES
From:	manius_constantinus_serapio@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:51:59 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Prometheus <fresco@f...> wrote:
> I'm sorry, but in the last messages sent by my computer there was a
> virus.
> Neither messages or viruses were sent intentionally by me, but
instead
> automatically.
> I was infected by e-mail, by a very malicious virus, I-WORM
BADTRANS.
> I could not believe it because I never open unsolicited attachments!
> SORRY, really sorry.
> Now the problem has been solved The Outlook software for internet
> discarded (and substituted by Netscape) and the computer de-
virused.
> My sinceres apologies.
> Marcus Prometheus

AVE

I didn't received any answer from you after those two messages-
virus. That's because I had those reaction. My computer is ok: I
found them.
You see, excuse-me for my words.

VALE MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO

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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 20:00:37 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

I want to share with you some ideas that have come to my mind regarding
taxation. Please, bear in mind that I am not against taxation itself,
nor talking about the amount it should be. Before replying to this
post, please take the time to read it thoroughly. Thank you.

My first thought is that actually a rather small percentage (probably
not over 25%) of the population of Nova Roma is probably willing to pay
taxes. I might be wrong, but this is the impression I have collected
through time. This will have two extremely negative effects:

1.- It will greatly reduce the amount collected by the treasury.

2.- It will greatly reduce the number of the assidui, partly
invalidating the Comitial process.

Now, why do I think this will happen? There are several reasons. First,
let's think about what our average citizen gets from Nova Roma.

The average citizen gets the possibility of joining a wide variety of
mailing lists, rainging from this very same list to the various
sodalitates, the religio list, etcetera (hosted by Yahoogroups -> cost
to the Res Publica=0$; degree of satisfaction=varies). He also gets the
benefits of a central government, who he mainly sees through several
calls to the Comitia he doesn't even bother to vote in (degree of
satisfaction=0). He also gets the benefits of the initial stages of
provincial government, which is actually in its infancy and will
certainly provide many features in the future, but which currently
amount almost to nothing (degree of satisfaction=very low).

So our average citizen does not see the necessity to pay taxes, given
that those taxes are not providing clear benefits to him.

If we want to increase the number of assidui, we must "sell" the
benefits of paying taxes. Let's not talk about civic duty or projects
in the far future (although those two are also completely vald
arguments). Let's talk about benefits here and now. Otherwise, the
response of prospective taxpayers will be to become less and less
involved in the activities of Nova Roma.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits (was: Roman Psychos)
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:11:52 EDT

In a message dated 7/13/01 9:39:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
a.cato@-------- writes:

> but it appears that the Romans were aware of the problem with lead.
> Valete, ... A. Cato
>
>
Salvete,
it would pay to remember that there was a very common and well like
wine that was matured in lead vessels. Gee, what a way to die! lead poisoning
also affects the ability to taste salt. One reason why ancient recipes may
have large amounts of salt.

drusila

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Subject:	[novaroma] passing of a sister-in -law
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:19:10 EDT

Greetings,
� I wanted to share with you a notice of passing for my sister-in -law Pamela
King. I figured many of you would see it in the saturday and sunday papers
and
wonder.(if your local that is.)

� Pam had been suffering� with End stage liver disease and give it a damn
good fight! She was greatly loved and honored by my eldest brother Robert.

Thanks for the band width

janet King
Aminah
P.A. Drusila the wandering

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:42:27 -0400

Salve Pompeia Antonia Caesar,

This is no different then the ways a set tax would be operated. I recommend
you look at this page concerning Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi.

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex-2001-05-20-i.html

I hope after viewing this you can see the full benefits of a unset tax
system.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

PompeiaAntoniaCaesar at europamoon7@-------- wrote:

> Pompeia: This is assuming that every citizen is
> interested in running for office and wants active say
> in public affairs. Will non tax-paying citizens be
> allowed to vote?

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes (and Special Thanks)
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 02:02:03 -0400

Salve Appius Tullius,

Welcome back Cato, sounds like you had an great vacation. I may be out of
province in August because of work. Thus, it maybe very hard for me to
attend the Fort Malden event. (frowns) I still have no dates set in stone,
so if I am lucky there is a chance I could work something out... It sounds
quite impressive and would be a terrible experience to overlook.

Donec Infra,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato a.cato@-------- wrote:

> Salvete Omnes: Well, I am back from vacation, and hopefully will have no
> major computer problems as well for a while. (I still have some minor ones,
> annoying!!)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:09:58 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

Thank you for the information. I question how many
cives will pay taxes and will the burden fall to the
patricians to support the state? Excuse me for being
so ignorant of the laws but I am a fairly new civis
and don't quite understand how the tax law would work.

Vale,

Pompeia

--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote:
>
> Salve Pompeia Antonia Caesar,
>
> This is no different then the ways a set tax would
> be operated. I recommend
> you look at this page concerning Lex Vedia de
> Assidui et Capiti Censi.
>
>
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex-2001-05-20-i.html
>
> I hope after viewing this you can see the full
> benefits of a unset tax
> system.
>
> Vale,
>
> "Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum
> mater ab vitualis"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is
> often the mother of virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
> Canada Orientalis Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
>
> Gens Claudia Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
> --
>
>
> PompeiaAntoniaCaesar at europamoon7@-------- wrote:
>
> > Pompeia: This is assuming that every citizen is
> > interested in running for office and wants active
> say
> > in public affairs. Will non tax-paying citizens
> be
> > allowed to vote?
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 04:07:13 EDT

Salvete.
All aqueducts I saw while in Latinum and in Spain were not lined in lead.
They were masonry and concrete. The valves were bronze. At Pompeii and
Herculaneum, we have found pipes made of clay, ceramic and lead. I remember
the argument in school about the richer Romans having lead, since they would
not break. I think it was what ever was handy at the time was used. Usually
these lead pipes were used to channel rain water. Most of the water pipes
running to the fountains were fired clay.

Valete,
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:23:23 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, demipagan@m... wrote:
> Yes, Lucius, I am sure that there are historians who will look for
> a "magic bullet" that killed the Romans, but I am not a historian.
> I am an engineer, and have spend more than a little time studying
> Chemistry and Materials Science. So, when I speak to you about this
> subject, I do know whereof I speak. I may even know a little more
> than somebody who grabbed a government pamphlet in a library, and
> glanced through it. You never know.
>
> Yes, increasing the speed that the water passes by the lead will
> decrease the interaction time available per molecule, but it also
> increases the number of molecules passing per unit time. As a very
> good rule of thumb, the latter will matter far more than the former,
> at the relatively low speeds that we're talking about. As one
> increases the speed of the incoming molecules, eventually the kinetic
> energy of the mater molecule relative to the lead would be enough to
> snap molcular bonds; however, it is rather doubtful that even modern
> piping would survive fluid flow at those speeds, much less ancient,
> even had the Romans been able to produce a fluid flow that fast.
> Which, of course, they couldn't, having only gravity to work with.
>
> Now, before we continue with the Physical Chemistry lesson, Lucius,
> what is your technical background ? I need to know how to pitch this
> explanation, when I get back from Dad's birthday party.
>
>
> Antistoicus
>

Salve,

My technical background is being assigned to actually deal with a real
world problem at a Naval Air Station by it's Commanding Officer. This
involved reading detailed reports, not glancing at a "government
pamphlet in a library".

The lead pipe theory was originally purposed by historians looking for
a reason for the Roman ruling class dying out, and concerned lead's
effects on the human reproductive system, and was NOT purposed as a
cause of insanity among the princeps. Those who purposed the original
theory ignored the fact that the Romans made regular use of adoptions,
so even if lead caused some romans of the upper class to become
sterile, the family would have continued due to adoption.

Now that this theory has been revived here to explain the madness of a
few Princeps, let's look at the other effects of lead poisoning.
According to the CDC
"Lead poisoning affects virtually every system in the body, and often
occurs with no distinctive symptoms.
Lead can damage a child's central nervous system, kidneys, and
reproductive system and, at higher levels, can cause coma,
convulsions, and death.
Even low levels of lead are harmful and are associated with
decreased intelligence, impaired neurobehavioral development,
decreased stature and growth, and impaired hearing acuity"

The ancient texts we are basing this insanity theory on fail to
mention any of these other symptoms. The pipe theory fails to look for
other sources of lead that the Romans may have digested, and if these
other sources may have been more likely to cause lead poisoning.
Sources like the wine in lead bottles mentioned by Drusila, or the
practice of making defruitum for cooking in lead bottles.

The pipe theory fails to explain why the Romans had a greater lead
based insanity problem than other groups, despite the fact that lead
remained in common use until very recent times.

Using the same very low standards of science, I purpose a new theory.
The widespread use of lead as a motor fuel additive in the 1960's
resulted in lead being introduced into the air. Breathing this lead
tainted air caused US Presidents Johnson and Nixon to become insane,
and was the cause of the US involvement in the Viet Nam War.

I offer no clinical proof of my "theory", and instead demand that
others disprove it. The same low standards as the lead pipe dream, and
UFO theories.

Sir, you are the proponent of the lead pipe theory. It is up to you to
offer the proof that lead did in fact cause insanity among SOME
rulers, and not others, the reasons for this selective insanity, that
the pipes were the primary source of this lead. So far all you have
done is offer reasons why you think the calcium deposits mentioned by
ancient writers didn't occur.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:07:21 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes.
>
> I want to share with you some ideas that have come to my mind regarding
> taxation. Please, bear in mind that I am not against taxation itself,
> nor talking about the amount it should be. Before replying to this
> post, please take the time to read it thoroughly. Thank you.
>
> My first thought is that actually a rather small percentage (probably
> not over 25%) of the population of Nova Roma is probably willing to pay
> taxes. I might be wrong, but this is the impression I have collected
> through time. This will have two extremely negative effects:
>
> 1.- It will greatly reduce the amount collected by the treasury.
>
> 2.- It will greatly reduce the number of the assidui, partly
> invalidating the Comitial process.
>
> Now, why do I think this will happen? There are several reasons. First,
> let's think about what our average citizen gets from Nova Roma.
>
> The average citizen gets the possibility of joining a wide variety of
> mailing lists, rainging from this very same list to the various
> sodalitates, the religio list, etcetera (hosted by Yahoogroups -> cost
> to the Res Publica=0$; degree of satisfaction=varies). He also gets the
> benefits of a central government, who he mainly sees through several
> calls to the Comitia he doesn't even bother to vote in (degree of
> satisfaction=0). He also gets the benefits of the initial stages of
> provincial government, which is actually in its infancy and will
> certainly provide many features in the future, but which currently
> amount almost to nothing (degree of satisfaction=very low).
>
> So our average citizen does not see the necessity to pay taxes, given
> that those taxes are not providing clear benefits to him.
>
> If we want to increase the number of assidui, we must "sell" the
> benefits of paying taxes. Let's not talk about civic duty or projects
> in the far future (although those two are also completely vald
> arguments). Let's talk about benefits here and now. Otherwise, the
> response of prospective taxpayers will be to become less and less
> involved in the activities of Nova Roma.
>
>
Salvete,

Lets start by looking at one of the proposed Consulta.

ITEM IX. DISPOSITION OF TAXES TO PROVINCIA

I. Those individuals charged with the collection of taxes shall
maintain a
record of what amounts were raised in each provincia, and such records
will be
provided to the Senate no later than the Idus of April.

II. One half of all taxes raised within a particular provincia shall be
designated to be spent within the boundaries of that provincia.
A. Such funds shall be kept in the central treasury, as managed
by the
Consular Quaestors, and shall be disbursed by the Quaestors to local
authorities as authorized in the annual budget.
B. The annual budget, as prepared, shall reflect such designated
funds,
whether or not they are actually budgeted to be spent within the year.
C. Funds designated to be spent within a provincia which are not
spent
within the fiscal year, shall roll over to the next year, and such
information
shall be reflected in the annual budget.
D. The Senate may, in times of emergency, use funds designated
for use
within a given provincia. Such funds shall be replaced within three
calendar
years by funds from the central treasury.

III. This Senatus Consultum shall apply only to annual taxes, and
shall not be
deemed to apply to other funds which may be collected during the
course of a
year, including but not limited to voluntary donations and other fees
which may
be imposed.

This means that the half the taxes will be set aside for use in the
Provinces. These funds will make it possible for the Propraetors to
start planning on more local events.

IMHO setting up strong local groups is the key to insuring that our
citizens keep an active intrest in Nova Roma. An Annual Provincial
meeting would be a good start. As soon as a Provincia has enough
citizens in a given geographic Area, setting up Regio level meetings
would be the next step. Next the Regios need to be divided into
Municipia, and when there are enough citizens in a given Municipia,
regular meetings can be held at this very local level.

The start this process of having more meetings the Propraetors will
need funds to cover the inital expenses, and any shortfalls in revenue
generated by the events.

Taxes will make it possible to start holding these local events.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits (was: Roman Psychos)
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 05:54:07 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

The military physicians used a sort of staple for
sealing wounds instead of stitches that was made from
silver because they knew it wouldn't cause infections
so it appears they had some knowledge about the health

ramifications of certain metals. Whether or not they
correlated this to ingestion of lead, though, is
another story. It's possible that they may have
discovered lead poisoning later on. As their
civilization advanced techniques changed. For example,
after the fires during Nero's reign, when they
realized that that the wood housing created a fire
hazard, building codes were then established that
required new dwellings to be made of cement.

Valete,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

--- b1abkj64 <a.cato@--------> wrote:
> Salvete: The subject of lead piping in Ancient Rome
> is interesting from another perspective, because it
> appears that some, if not most Romans, were aware of
> the dangers to health of lead. Ceramic piping was
> recommended over lead by certain Romans because of
> the problem.
> As pointed out in another post, where the water
> was running continuously, the water would not be in
> contact with the piping long enough to make a
> significant difference. But where the water was
> sitting in the piping and then used for drinking
> there would almost certainly be a long term exposure
> problem, but it appears that the Romans were aware
> of the problem with lead.
> Valete, ... A. Cato
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits (was: Roman Psychos)
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 05:54:51 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	[novaroma] roman psychos and lead poisoning
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 05:56:37 -0700 (PDT)

Ave List Mistress,

I may have sent my last email twice. Just wanted to
let you know it was accidental.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:57:01 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Navarra Reid" <optabilis@h...> wrote:
> Salve Omnes:
>
> I would like to say that I support both of my gens members, Domna
Claudia
> Auspicata and Amulius Claudius Petrus.
>
> I am also concerned that Domna's e-mail were ignored. Some kind of
response
> would have been appropriate even if it were not a positive one.
>
> Appia Claudia Indagatrix
> Materfamilias Gens Claudia
> Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis)
>
>
> Salvete cives et amici,
>
> I am also concerned with the hastiness of this proposed tax. Earlier
there
> was talk of a national census. It only seems natural that this
should come
> before a tax is organised. Within this census you could ask questions
> related to the proposed tax, much like the ones written up by fellow
claudii
> Domna. It would also be good practice for organising an efficient tax
> system. You could learn much by seeing how the information is to be
gathered
> and processed. In many ways it could help perfect the system that is
> proposed without doing much harm. Another benefit of a census is that we
> could finally get a feeling of how many cives "still" support the
national
> mission (still active). Other cives could probably come up with many
more
> benefits but I am just trying to get the general idea out.
>
> I agree this nation needs to have a tax, although you really should
look at
> the general feeling of Nova Roma's populace before implementing it.
I hope
> you will see the sense behind this proposal and take advantage of
all the
> positives a census could offer to the proposed tax.
>
>
> Domna Claud--------usp--------a <comptess@--------> wrote:
> >>
> >> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a formal amount of tax
> >> will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
> >> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of has gone into the
> >> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me the cleverest,
> >> professional way of setting a tax that will directly affect citizens
> >> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both Consuls
> >> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the Senate to be
> >> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With good use of this
> >> information a reasonable tax amount could be set and an accurate
> >> forecast of income could be made among other things. I have not had
> >> a reply to this email.

Salve,

I did in fact respond in part to Domna Claudia's post, in a seprate
post where I pointed out that the Proposed Consulta on taxes was not
hasty, but rather something that the Senate has been talking about for
years.

As to her idea of gathering more information. If we are going to have
taxes next year we need to prepare for it now. There is no reason that
the Senate can't look at the Tax rate next year and set a different
rate for 2756.

Holding a Census next year would give the Senate better information to
base the Tax rate on, but waiting for the Census would result in ZERO
income from taxes for 2755.

The recent vote on the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi can be
viewed as a referrendum where the People ratified the concept of
collecting taxes. In fact the support for the idea of taxes was
greater than the margin the Lex passed by, as some citizens made it
plain in posts that they were voting against it because they disagreed
with one of the Provisions, rather than the concept of collecting taxes.

No matter how many polls and Census questions we ask, some
expermentation will be needed to detrmine the optimum point on the
Lafer Curve for our taxes. The Lafer Curve shows that as the Rate
increases you reach a point where non-compliance results in less money
collected than you would get with a lower rate and a higher level of
compliance, ie, you have more money if 500 citizens pay $12.00, than
you have if 200 citizens pay $25.00.

As to Amulius Claudius's proposal of an unset tax.

A certain ammount of effort will be needed to collect the tax. Below a
certain point the effort and cost of collecting the tax excedes the
value collected. If a citizen claims that they only want to pay $1.00
in taxes collecting it isn't worth the cost. To avoid this problem
there has to be a minimum ammount set, and nothing lower than this
ammount will be accepted.

The current proposal of $12.00 is very low, and could be considered as
the minnimum tax, and we could allow our more civic minded citizens to
pay a higher tax if they so desire. This would result in the Senate
having a low figure based on the minimum rate that they could make
long term plans on, and the higher revenues form the actual collection
of the voulantarly paid extra ammounts when they finalize the budget.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] on pbs this week
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 09:14:27 EDT

Salvete,

I was going through the Tv Guide (OK, I am a long time Star Trek fan.)
In the "hit or miss" brief reviews of the upcoming weeks special I was
overjoyed to see that PBS is having a great one for us.

"Roman Empire in the first century" in Wednesday. It is 4 hours long and got
a good rating of 8 out of 10.
So set those VCRs!

Prima Ancinna Drusila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:19:51 -0000

Salvete,

I would like to offer my theory on the "Insane Emperors.

First of all lets look at the ages of the early Emperors when they
assumed office, excluding those who were Princeps less than a year.

Augustus 35
Tiberius 56
Gaius (Caligula)25
Claudius 51
Nero 17
Vespasian 60
Titus 40
Domitian 30
Nerva 66
Trajan 46
Hadrian 41
Antoninus Pius 52
Marcus Aurelius 40
Commodus 19

Gaius, Nero, Domatian, and Commodus are the rulers on this list that
are most often mentioned as being insane.

They all assumed power at the age of 30 or younger. Domatian is the
only one of these men who lived past the age of 35, and he is
generally rearded as more stable than the other three.

IMHO the problem wasn't that these men were insane, it's that they
lacked the maturity to assume the powers of the Princeps. I don't
think we need to look for a cause of insanity, because we are looking
at a problem of immaturity instead.

<Warning for the Humor Impaired, A Joke Follows>

Perhaps we should amend the Constitution, setting a minimum age of 40
for anyone who might become Princeps.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:43:58 -0400

Study 'heat transfer', fluid flow' and 'hydraulic engineering'
;-)

I am sure thaat Venturi would be amazed that a decrease in the
diameter of a pipe or tube does not create an increase in
velocity! Gosh, I guess my eductor will no longer work! You need
to find a nice simple booklet to explain the behavior of fluids
in a piping system ;-)

The Aqueducts were a giant hydraulic ram system, and the romans
did their hydraulic engineering in a very advanced way. In the
text of the report below, you can get some idea of the roughly a
million gallons a day flow, and the care taken in maintaining the
flow and monitoring the quality of the water [they had one
aqueduct that they acknowleged as non-potable and routed it to
gardens and baths ferex]

margali
Hyapatia Asinia MArgali

http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/Frontinus/De_Aquis/home.html
A text on the aqueduct system by the minister of water.

http://www.chez.com/siagnole/index.htm
OK, so the site is in french - it has great pictures and if you
use babelfish you can get some idea of what he is saying [unless
you happen to read french ;-)]

~~~~~
the quote starts here:
MAJOR SNIPPAGE I think we all know what the post is referring to
;-)

PS. Contrary to your statements on the matter, the effect of a
reduction of channel cross-sectional area would be a
reduction
in speed, not an increase. Drag increases, but since this is
a gravity driven system, pressure is relatively unchanged.
There
is no pump, shoving the water column forward from behind. All
there is, in the case of a home water supply, is a really big
sluice leading up to the piping. Were one to drop a side
sluice
to the house, there would be a small increase in the pressure
driving
the fluid flow, as water at the entrance deepened, but not enough
to overcome the drag. Again, going down the same gradient, which
do you see moving more quickly, a river or a brook ?

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:27:16 -0700 (PDT)

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I would like to offer my theory on the "Insane
> Emperors.
>
> First of all lets look at the ages of the early
> Emperors when they
> assumed office, excluding those who were Princeps
> less than a year.
>
> Augustus 35
> Tiberius 56
> Gaius (Caligula)25
> Claudius 51
> Nero 17
> Vespasian 60
> Titus 40
> Domitian 30
> Nerva 66
> Trajan 46
> Hadrian 41
> Antoninus Pius 52
> Marcus Aurelius 40
> Commodus 19
>
> Gaius, Nero, Domatian, and Commodus are the rulers
> on this list that
> are most often mentioned as being insane.
>
> They all assumed power at the age of 30 or younger.
> Domatian is the
> only one of these men who lived past the age of 35,
> and he is
> generally rearded as more stable than the other
> three.
>
> IMHO the problem wasn't that these men were insane,
> it's that they
> lacked the maturity to assume the powers of the
> Princeps. I don't
> think we need to look for a cause of insanity,
> because we are looking
> at a problem of immaturity instead.
>
> <Warning for the Humor Impaired, A Joke Follows>
>
> Perhaps we should amend the Constitution, setting a
> minimum age of 40
> for anyone who might become Princeps.
>
> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

Salvete,

I think there are so many elements that must be taken
into consideration when discussing the 'mad' rulers of
Rome. I always felt the most dominating elements were
lack of maturity and experience. Another example of
this is Elagabalus who became Emperor at the age of 14
and is also considered one of the worst Emperors of
Rome. The worst four are usually considered to be
Nero, Caligula, Elagabalus and Commodus. There is
definitely a common denominator here. Just think of
anyone at the age of 17 becoming the richest, most
powerful individual in the world with the freedom to
act in any manner desired with very little retribution
to worry about. Add overindulgence of wine and carnal
lusts to this mixture and we can hardly be surprised
by the outcome. Would we not produce these same 'mad'
rulers today if certain teenagers with dysfunctional
backgrounds and weak characters were placed in these
same circumstances? I wonder.

Valete,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:31:20 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Lets start by looking at one of the proposed Consulta.
>
> ITEM IX. DISPOSITION OF TAXES TO PROVINCIA
>
> I. Those individuals charged with the collection of taxes shall
> maintain a
> record of what amounts were raised in each provincia, and such
> records
> will be
> provided to the Senate no later than the Idus of April.

<<snipped>>

> This means that the half the taxes will be set aside for use in the
> Provinces. These funds will make it possible for the Propraetors to
> start planning on more local events.
>
> IMHO setting up strong local groups is the key to insuring that our
> citizens keep an active intrest in Nova Roma. An Annual Provincial
> meeting would be a good start. As soon as a Provincia has enough
> citizens in a given geographic Area, setting up Regio level meetings
> would be the next step. Next the Regios need to be divided into
> Municipia, and when there are enough citizens in a given Municipia,
> regular meetings can be held at this very local level.
>
> The start this process of having more meetings the Propraetors will
> need funds to cover the inital expenses, and any shortfalls in
> revenue
> generated by the events.
>
> Taxes will make it possible to start holding these local events.

Excuse me, but it seems that I didn't make myself fully understood. I
am in favour of taxation (and even more in favour to the return of a
large percentage of it to the provincial administrations). My point was
that we need to make clear the concise benefits of paying taxes; i.e.,
what the money will be spent on.

I don't want to seem repetitive, but I make a call for the magistrates
to fully propose a budget of how the money will be spent, and to look
for more feedback from the citizenry in this issue.

I also fully support your opinions about the importance of local
events; I have myself strongly abogued in the past in favour of these
events, for I think that those events will some day become the most
important activity of Nova Roma.

As a last word, I want to say that I share the concern of other
European cives about the possible cost of sending the money to a
central treasury in the American continent and then back to the
European provinciae. I am certainly no expert in this issue, but I
think that banks do not really need our help to become even richer ;-).

Is there a civis that can provide accurate information about the
expenses in which we may incur in sending the money back and forth? And
could this informed civis provide any suggestions to avoid or lessen
these expenses?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

Once again, I ask for your forgiveness for introducing my opinions into
this thread. I hope no one feels offended.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<previous messages snipped>>

> Salve,
>
> I did in fact respond in part to Domna Claudia's post, in a seprate
> post where I pointed out that the Proposed Consulta on taxes was not
> hasty, but rather something that the Senate has been talking about
> for
> years.

Undoubtedly, they have. But maybe -just maybe- they should have looked
beyond the Senate's virtual walls and seeked some feedback from the
citizenry, as well as some kind of "professional" report on the
appropriate tax rate and the best way to collect those taxes. Perhaps
they did. In that case, I offer my apologies for my lack of knowledge.

> As to her idea of gathering more information. If we are going to have
> taxes next year we need to prepare for it now. There is no reason
> that
> the Senate can't look at the Tax rate next year and set a different
> rate for 2756.
>
> Holding a Census next year would give the Senate better information
> to
> base the Tax rate on, but waiting for the Census would result in ZERO
> income from taxes for 2755.

Yes. But there is one reason why a hasty application of this tax could
be harmful to our Republic. I am not talking about those citizens who
frequently contribute to this list. I am talking about the "silent
majority" of our citizenry, which apports a different kind of
contribution, and which might not feel sufficiently involved in Nova
Roma to pay this (to me) reasonable amount.

In my provincia, Hispania, a large part of the citizenry does not speak
English well enough to contribute to this mailing list. They might
-just might- feel alienated by the fact that they are asked money to
pay for expenses or projects no one has cared to explain to them. That
might lead them to avoid paying taxes (even if perfectly able to pay
them and probably willing to under other circumstances). The result
-the loss of political saying in elections- will not certainly help to
improve their level of participation, and so they might distanciate
from us. Perhaps next year's changes might be too late to avoid this.

Besides, why this haste? Why is it so necessary to pay right now? Why
can't we wait to do it properly?

> The recent vote on the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi can be
> viewed as a referrendum where the People ratified the concept of
> collecting taxes. In fact the support for the idea of taxes was
> greater than the margin the Lex passed by, as some citizens made it
> plain in posts that they were voting against it because they
> disagreed
> with one of the Provisions, rather than the concept of collecting
> taxes.
>
> No matter how many polls and Census questions we ask, some
> expermentation will be needed to detrmine the optimum point on the
> Lafer Curve for our taxes. The Lafer Curve shows that as the Rate
> increases you reach a point where non-compliance results in less
> money
> collected than you would get with a lower rate and a higher level of
> compliance, ie, you have more money if 500 citizens pay $12.00, than
> you have if 200 citizens pay $25.00.

Exactly. But, as I have already stated before (and please forgive me
for saying this again), the amount required might not be the single
element to influence the response of the citizenry. I really think that
our citizenry must be better informed about what these taxes are for
and why they should pay them.

> As to Amulius Claudius's proposal of an unset tax.
>
> A certain ammount of effort will be needed to collect the tax. Below
> a
> certain point the effort and cost of collecting the tax excedes the
> value collected. If a citizen claims that they only want to pay $1.00
> in taxes collecting it isn't worth the cost. To avoid this problem
> there has to be a minimum ammount set, and nothing lower than this
> ammount will be accepted.
>
> The current proposal of $12.00 is very low, and could be considered
> as
> the minnimum tax, and we could allow our more civic minded citizens
> to
> pay a higher tax if they so desire. This would result in the Senate
> having a low figure based on the minimum rate that they could make
> long term plans on, and the higher revenues form the actual
> collection
> of the voulantarly paid extra ammounts when they finalize the budget.

But we do not know that minimum, because we don't know how many
citizens will pay taxes. Again, a survey proves necessary.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoricium XVIII about the appointment of an ordinary Legatus Regionis Suecicae
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:57:02 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium XVIII about the appointment of an ordinary Legatus
Regionis Suecicae, (Legate of the Swedish Region)

It is a great pleasure for me, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, to re-appoint
this Honorable citizen to an ordinary position within Provincia Thule and
my Cohors Propraetoris (The Propraetorian Staff, Provincial Governament)!
I, as a Nova Roman citizen within the Provincia Thule, am proud to see the
Gravitas and Pietas this citizen shows! My workload is still heavy and my
amicus Vibius Minucius Falco has taken on him to ease some of this burden.

I. Honorable Vibius Minucius Falco is hereby appointed as ordinary Legatus
Regionis Suecicae, (ordinary Legatus of the Swedish Region), after serving
for about three months as " Protolegatus Regionis Suecicae" (Provisional
Legati on Trial of the Swedish Region).

II. Above appointed official is asked to observe that he is bound by the
"Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of Thule" as it was
published on the 15th of April 2001.

III. As a official in Provincia Thule he is asked to within one week swear
the public oath shown on
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html, using both his Nova
Roman name and within parenthesis his macroworld (real) name. Observe that
the Oath of must include all appointed positions of each cives. The Oath
must be published on the NovaRomaThule List and the Nova Roma Roma Main
List!

IV. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given July 14th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus
and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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"I'll either find a way or make one"
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Psychos
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 09:01:01 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
>
> >
> > Salvete!
> >
> > Points well taken - they had also mentioned most of these factors
> on
> > the Nova special. Pretty nasty and septic, as we now know.
> >
> > For a worse example, try a description of how President
Garfield's
> > doctors and medical advisors almost certainly killed him, as
> > Guiteau's shot was a far from mortal one. Considering how
> > incompetently they handled Garfield, even given their more
limited
> > knowledge, it's a wonder he survived as long as he did!
>
>
> Salvete!
>
> Good point, since Garfield died of infection and septicemia, rather
> than the gun shot.
>
> Gaia Flacca Severa

One of the Panati's books (_Panati's Extraordinary Endings Of
Practically Everything And Everybody_, if I remember right), has a
detailed and graphic description that can be summarized as: Doctors
poked and prodded the wound until they punctured his liver and
actually dug a filthy, septic tunnel from the small of his back all
the way through to his crotch, all the time neglecting to wash their
hands or instruments. I pity poor Garfield going through this torture.

R Palaeologus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 09:14:37 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	demipagan@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:47:58 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, margali <margali@9...> wrot--------r> > Study 'heat transfer', fluid flow' and 'hydraulic engineering'
> ;-)
>
> I am sure thaat Venturi would be amazed that a decrease in the
> diameter of a pipe or tube does not create an increase in
> velocity! Gosh, I guess my eductor will no longer work! You need
> to find a nice simple booklet to explain the behavior of fluids
> in a piping system ;-)

Margali, modern hydraulic systems, and ancient ones, worked on
completely different principles. The reason that water velocity will
go up in a modern system, if the pipe diameter increases, is because
regardless of how obstructed the fluid flow is, there is still a
pump back there, forcing the water through. Narrow the channel, and
the water pressure will go up. Newtons' second law kicks in.

Such is not the case with a gravity driven system. If the column of
water over a square inch weighs n pounds, then you get n pounds of
pressure per square inch, regardless of whether you have a big leak,
or a small leak.

Again, kids, this is Physics 110. "Netiquette" and Nova Roman
politics notwithstanding, it simply isn't debatable, and if you
think it is, you haven't been understanding the sources you have been
reading. Now, I'm not going to have a test of wills with you on this one, or see who can quote the most urls. If you're learning your science from websites, then there are far bigger issues to address here, than Roman hydraulics. Like, for example, knowing what is, and is not, a reliable source of information. May I be so "rude" as to suggest that you turn off the computer, and open an actual book.

Antistoicus

> the quote starts here:
> MAJOR SNIPPAGE I think we all know what the post is referring to
> ;-)
>
> PS. Contrary to your statements on the matter, the effect of a
> reduction of channel cross-sectional area would be a
> reduction
> in speed, not an increase. Drag increases, but since this is
> a gravity driven system, pressure is relatively unchanged.
> There
> is no pump, shoving the water column forward from behind. All
> there is, in the case of a home water supply, is a really big
> sluice leading up to the piping. Were one to drop a side
> sluice
> to the house, there would be a small increase in the pressure
> driving
> the fluid flow, as water at the entrance deepened, but not enough
> to overcome the drag. Again, going down the same gradient, which
> do you see moving more quickly, a river or a brook ?

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:33:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Lets start by looking at one of the proposed Consulta.
> >
> > ITEM IX. DISPOSITION OF TAXES TO PROVINCIA
> >
> > I. Those individuals charged with the collection of taxes shall
> > maintain a
> > record of what amounts were raised in each provincia, and such
> > records
> > will be
> > provided to the Senate no later than the Idus of April.
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > This means that the half the taxes will be set aside for use in the
> > Provinces. These funds will make it possible for the Propraetors to
> > start planning on more local events.
> >
> > IMHO setting up strong local groups is the key to insuring that our
> > citizens keep an active intrest in Nova Roma. An Annual Provincial
> > meeting would be a good start. As soon as a Provincia has enough
> > citizens in a given geographic Area, setting up Regio level meetings
> > would be the next step. Next the Regios need to be divided into
> > Municipia, and when there are enough citizens in a given Municipia,
> > regular meetings can be held at this very local level.
> >
> > The start this process of having more meetings the Propraetors will
> > need funds to cover the inital expenses, and any shortfalls in
> > revenue
> > generated by the events.
> >
> > Taxes will make it possible to start holding these local events.
>
> Excuse me, but it seems that I didn't make myself fully understood. I
> am in favour of taxation (and even more in favour to the return of a
> large percentage of it to the provincial administrations). My point was
> that we need to make clear the concise benefits of paying taxes; i.e.,
> what the money will be spent on.
>
> I don't want to seem repetitive, but I make a call for the magistrates
> to fully propose a budget of how the money will be spent, and to look
> for more feedback from the citizenry in this issue.

DRUSUS: The Senate is required to prepare the budget you have asked
for. The deadline for this is the last day of November, as per the
Constitution. However they can't prepare the budget until they decide
IF they will implement taxes, and if so what the rate will be. The $12
is the proposal before the Senate, but they may decide on a different
rate. Once they decide on the matter of taxes, then they will have the
information they need to begain preparing next years budget.
>
> I also fully support your opinions about the importance of local
> events; I have myself strongly abogued in the past in favour of these
> events, for I think that those events will some day become the most
> important activity of Nova Roma.
>
> As a last word, I want to say that I share the concern of other
> European cives about the possible cost of sending the money to a
> central treasury in the American continent and then back to the
> European provinciae. I am certainly no expert in this issue, but I
> think that banks do not really need our help to become even richer ;-).

DRUSUS: I share your concern about the costs of sending the money
across the Atlantic twice, and fear that this will result in the
European Civies getting less return for thier taxes. I would like to
see the taxes in Europe collected in Euros, and be placed in a bank in
an EC nation, under the control of the Senate. The problem that
occured in Britannia didn't occur because the money was in Europe, but
was a result of the Senate not having control over the funds. The same
thing could have happened if the money was under the direct control of
a Propraetor in the USA.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 09:46:58 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Paleologe.

--- radams36@-------- wrote:

<<previous post snipped>>

> A well thought-out, logical, and practical argument, citizen! I agree
>
> with your points here.
>
> R Palaeologus

Thank you. Your support is much appreciated.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Lead pipes, and calcium deposits
From:	demipagan@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:45:32 -0000

Re : Lucius' claims of expertise. I am put in mind of the old cliche,
"On Usenet, nobody knows you're a dog". If you haven't heard
that one, it means that you can fib to your heart's content
about your background, and on the Internet, who will know ?
In this case, I can just about guarantee he is fibbing.

Why ? Because he did not understand the difference between the
instantaneous rate of lead mass loading into the water, and the
cumulative mass loaded over a period. This is equivalent to
confusing a function with its integral, an error that would get a
student flunked out of Basic Calculus. I should know, I've given out
enough F's. Without Calculus, Lucius wouldn't be allowed anywhere
near an Engineering program.

Speaking of lying ... as a matter of objective, historical fact, I
have never made a post speaking for or against the theory that lead
killed the Romans. Check the record - the post about Calcium deposits
was my first ever, on this list. So, Lucius, your use of Ockham's
razor not only fails to be on point, but it is dishonest as well. I
find it intriguing that you speak of getting the facts straight,
about events occuring 2,000 years ago, when you can't even seem to
get the facts straight, about what occured two days ago.

On the off-chance that anybody here actually cares more about Physics
than Politics, on this matter ... here is why Lucius is wrong, and
the health department is right. The issue is the relative
instantaneous rates, at a point, of scale formation and lead mass
loading. What somebody here has failed to appreciate, is that there
are not only chemical processes at work, here, but mechanical as
well. Again, look at the surface of the lead pipe, on the microscopic
scale, as it slowly corrodes into the water, by oxidation. (Not by
the dissolving of lead into the water, as Lucius, our alleged
engineer, seems to think). What the process will produce, owing to
minor imperfections in the metal, chaotic micro-eddies in the water,
etc, is a surface with something akin to a fractal shape. You'll have
tips and ridges on the interface, jutting into the stream, and
crevices, pits, etc going into the material. As you enter the
'interior' of the 'ravines and valleys' of this complex minature
landscape, you will find that the current, relatively speaking, dies
down. Mineral deposits will occur, not in these still areas, but on
the leading tips and edges, projecting into the current. Now, picture
a small calcium clump starting to form. What happens if the delicate
structures anchoring it to the pipe break loose ? It will no longer
be connected to the wall. It has now broken loose, and is travelling
with the current. Increasing the local speed of the current at a
point, increases the mechanical stress on those delicate little
fractal metal microstructures, and increases the likelihood that they
will snap off into the water. Thus, the same process that increases
the instantaneous rate of lead mass loading, decreases the rate of
scale formation. In other words, the pipe is being scrubbed clean,
and as anybody who has scrubbed a soft metal surface a little too
hard knows, some amount of dust will come up with the crud. (In this
case, microscopic dust). Was it really news to anybody here, that the
conditions which would favor erosion, would hinder deposition ?
Again, I'm sorry, but it's just not debatable. Neither is the fact
that scale, like any other material that bonds to itself more
agressively than it bonds to the substrate, will form in clumps, not
in a uniform coating. But that is a whole different discussion, and I
am left with the impression that reason is wasted on this list, and
probably on Nova Roma as well. When I see the attitude that the first
person who speaks on a subject sets dogma, I know where subsequent
discussions are going. Right off into random silliness, a la Usenet.
You might not have anything better to do with your time, but I do.

The rest is yours, Lucius. Take it away. I've seen an Internet "group
debunk" start before, and experience tells me that the moment the
hivemind gets going, reason is the last thing that is going to
matter. But, at least I did inject a contrary note, to counteract
some of the misinformation you are spreading on this subject.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:59:06 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, demipagan@m... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, margali <margali@9...> wrot--------font>
> > Study 'heat transfer', fluid flow' and 'hydraulic engineering'
> > ;-)
> >
> > I am sure thaat Venturi would be amazed that a decrease in the
> > diameter of a pipe or tube does not create an increase in
> > velocity! Gosh, I guess my eductor will no longer work! You need
> > to find a nice simple booklet to explain the behavior of fluids
> > in a piping system ;-)
>
> Margali, modern hydraulic systems, and ancient ones, worked on
> completely different principles. The reason that water velocity will
> go up in a modern system, if the pipe diameter increases, is because
> regardless of how obstructed the fluid flow is, there is still a
> pump back there, forcing the water through. Narrow the channel, and
> the water pressure will go up. Newtons' second law kicks in.
>
> Such is not the case with a gravity driven system. If the column of
> water over a square inch weighs n pounds, then you get n pounds of
> pressure per square inch, regardless of whether you have a big leak,
> or a small leak.

LOL, I guess I'll have to complain to my local water authority about
the money they wasted building those water towers.

A Modern system uses pumps to MOVE the water. Presure comes from the
head provided by the water in the towers, so both the modern and
ancient systems rely on gravity to provide the presure.
>
> Again, kids, this is Physics 110. "Netiquette" and Nova Roman
> politics notwithstanding, it simply isn't debatable, and if you
> think it is, you haven't been understanding the sources you have been
> reading. Now, I'm not going to have a test of wills with you on this
one, or see who can quote the most urls. If you're learning your
science from websites, then there are far bigger issues to address
here, than Roman hydraulics. Like, for example, knowing what is, and
is not, a reliable source of information. May I be so "rude" as to
suggest that you turn off the computer, and open an actual book.

The same can be said about relying on Arrogant Patronizing posts in a
mailing list.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits
From:	"b1abkj64" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:37:44 -0400

Salvete: It would appear that although there was a common knowledge at the time of the danger of lead poisoning, that many Romans insisted on its continued use for various purposes, including piping for drinking water, and as a container to age a certain variety of wine as Drusilla states.

Vitruvius (70 - 80 B.C.E. - ?) in De Architectura libri decum written in the decade or two after the Battle of Actium states:
" Ceramic pipes have this advantage. First of all, if there is some flaw in the system, whatever it is, anyone may repair it. Furthermore, the water from clay pipes is much more healthful than that from lead, because it seems that lead is toxic; white lead is derived from it, and that is said to be harmful to the human body. If that which is produced from lead is harmful, then there can be no doubt that that lead itself is not healthful either. We can take an example from the lead workers, whose coloring has been overcome by pallor. When lead exhales as it is poured, its vapour comes to rest in the limbs of their bodies; day by day it snatches away the strength of their blood by burning it away. It seems, then, that water should be conducted as little as possible through lead pipes, if we want it to be healthful. That the flavor of water from terracotta pipes is better is clear from everyday cooking, because everyone, although they may have their tables piled high with silver vessels, nontheless uses terracotta for cooking, in order to preserve good flavor."
There are other examples as well, of the Romans knowledge of the hazards of lead. So perhaps we can only assume that they were willing to put their long term health in jeopardy in exchange of the convenience of working with a material that could be easily shaped and used in a great variety of ways, and also be able to give a little under strain, whereas terracotta would perhaps break.
It is indeed an interesting subject.
Valete, A. Cato

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:50:53 -0400

No, it is not rude to suggest I read [I actually spend more time
reading books than on the computer, my comfy reading chair
happens to be my desk chair, and when I am sitting here, the
computer is on - multitasking? ;-)

Actually, I tend to read anything in my house, and as my husband
deals with that sort of garbage at work all the time I tend to
read his manuals, both regular and e-texts of all sorts of
reference books [ferex I happen to have the Machinists Handbook
and the US Navy's 'Blue Sominex' [the torpedomans 1&2 handbook]
loaded on my paln doing a beta test for an e-publisher. Odd
choice, but I happen to also be a mundane nuclear outside
mechanic and inside machinist by training.] I am going by what
was written in period by their water minister, various other
miscellaneous texts over the years and whatever I can lay my
hands on [most currently a rather interesting book on different
water systems not requiring much in the way of modern
conveniences as a project for a rural domicile.]

No pissing contest, but cylinders are cylinders, and 42,000 paces
[roman] with a drop can build quite a pressure head. An hydraulic
ram develops the same pressures as a 'pump' system because they
are using the principals of gravity and physics to make a
non-powered pump out of the large column of water. As my old boss
was wont to say 's*^t flows downhill at one quarter inch per foot
and payday is friday';-)

I give web addresses for info simply because I can't be sure that
everybody has access to my personal library. Makes it easier for
people to do their own research. I figure that it is more polite
to give them the ability to do this type of research as I don't
know offhand how many engineers tehre are on the list ;-)
margali
~~~~~
the quote starts here:
gain, kids, this is Physics 110. "Netiquette" and Nova Roman
politics notwithstanding, it simply isn't debatable, and if you
think it is, you haven't been understanding the sources you have
been
reading. Now, I'm not going to have a test of wills with you on
this one, or see
who can quote the most urls. If you're learning your science from
websites, then
there are far bigger issues to address here, than Roman
hydraulics. Like, for
example, knowing what is, and is not, a reliable source of
information. May I be so
"rude" as to suggest that you turn off the computer, and open an
actual book.

Antistoicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lead pipes, and calcium deposits
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:58:15 -0400

Most people are also forgetting the lead salts used to flavor the
wine, and the lead solder in copper vessels, and the lead used
cosmeticaly. You don't just intake lead in your water!
margali
Hyapatia Asinia Margali
~~~~~
the quote starts here:
>>>
Politics, on this matter ... here is why Lucius is wrong, and
the health department is right. The issue is the relative
instantaneous rates, at a point, of scale formation and lead mass
loading. What somebody here has failed to appreciate, is that
there
are not only chemical processes at work, here, but mechanical as
well. Again, look at the surface of the lead pipe, on the
microscopic
scale, as it slowly corrodes into the water, by oxidation. (Not
by
the dissolving of lead into the water, as Lucius, our alleged
engineer, seems to think)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:24:56 -0500

Salvete

The real question isn't whether the Romans had lead in their water (they
certainly had lead levels that wouldn't pass most modern standards), but
rather what the average Roman's blood lead level was. To really
understand the effects of lead poisoning in Roma Antiqua, one would need
to collect information from hydrological engineers (to understand
plumbing), archaeologists (to understand ancient Roman plumbing),
doctors (to understand the effects of lead poisoning on individuals of
various ages, in both the short and the long term), and epidemiologists
(to understand the effects of lead poisoning on a population). Without
such information collected and analyzed in a systematic fashion, we're
just not going to come to an answer that can be accepted as reasonably
accurate.

Sounds like a great project for a graduate thesis.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"One is not superior merely because one sees the world as odious."
-Chateaubriand

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
From:	demipagan@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:38:16 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, d--------agan@m... wrot--------r> > --- In novaroma@--------, margali <margali@9...> wrot--------font>
> > Study 'heat transfer', fluid flow' and 'hydraulic engineering'
> > ;-)
> >
> > I am sure thaat Venturi would be amazed that a decrease in the
> > diameter of a pipe or tube does not create an increase in
> > velocity! Gosh, I guess my eductor will no longer work! You need
> > to find a nice simple booklet to explain the behavior of fluids
> > in a piping system ;-)
>
> Margali, modern hydraulic systems, and ancient ones, worked on
> completely different principles. The reason that water velocity will
> go up in a modern system, if the pipe diameter increases, ...

Pardon me, that should read "decreases". This is what I get for
posting before I've had breakfast.

By the way, the term, here, properly, should be "speed", not
"velocity". Velocity can not increase, or decrease, for the reason
that it is vector valued, not real-valued. There is no canonical
ordering on R3, like there is on R. I suppose one could introduce
an ordering, say the lexicographic order, but I doubt that this would
lead to anything of physical interest.

The difference between speed and velocity is more than hair splitting,
as anybody who has tried to turn a corner at too high of a speed
knows from painful experience.

Antistoicus

PS. Having now cleaned up that little mess I left on the list, I will
now take my leave of it. I've stopped reading the followups, but
I'm guessing that somebody has or soon will seize on my typo in
a triumphal tone, as if a momentary stumbling over one's words
proved anything of significance. Consider this my response, if
my guess proves correct.

Aside from that, unlike some of this list, I am bothered by the
thought of giving misinformation, even by accident in a late
Saturday morning mental fog, and I had to correct it.

Goodbye, now.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lead pipes, and calcium deposits
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:45:22 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, demipagan@m... wrote:
> Re : Lucius' claims of expertise. I am put in mind of the old cliche,
> "On Usenet, nobody knows you're a dog". If you haven't heard
> that one, it means that you can fib to your heart's content
> about your background, and on the Internet, who will know ?
> In this case, I can just about guarantee he is fibbing.

So your inability to move beyond your schoolbooks into the real world
has forced you to sink to personal attacks.

OK everybody, lets ignore that the ancient text's mention of the
deposits, lets assume that the evidance unearthed in actual digs that
show deposits in the pipes was forged, demipagans schoolbooks say it
couldn't happen.

In Antiquita a agnomen was bestowed by others, your posts have earned
you one, Feroxdiscipulus (Arrogant Schoolboy). Well Feroxdiscipulus, I
have better things to do than argue with a grad student who has no
idea that a world exists outside his Ivory Tower.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Buy The Coins
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Onnes,

There is a manner in which taxes may be collected,
whilst value is still traded for value. Several weeks
ago I purchased eighty Nova Roma coins. That comes to
about $45.US plus shipping. IS that a direct
contribution to the coffers? No, because the coins
are marked ridiculously low, in order that they might
be gobbled up and spread out, even amongst the heathen
and the cretins. With enough patience from the
Senate, and the People, would could approach the
entire subject of revenue from a different
perspective. Taxes depend on economy. This is what
we keep losing sight of in all these points and
counterpoints about whom to tax, how and who gets
punished when if they don't pay. We have no common,
mutual economy. We are not generating wealth of a
Novaroman nature. Until we have an economy, and hence
a reason for an active state, we do not trade value
for value. I trust that the Senate has given great
consideration to the thorny knotted problem of
revenue. What good are taxes to a state that has no
state? Remember the line from the Costner film?
"Build it and he will come..." First, friends and
countrymen, we must build the People. Without the
People, the Senate has no one to counsel. Let us
beggar off from taxes for a spell. Faith, friends,
the Gods will provide if we attend to Our matters.
And what are our matters? In a previous post I
offered my own viewpoint, however limited its scope.
I awaited a reply, but none came but from the one man,
ever honorable, whom I knew would reply. I was not so
much saddened tht my words fell towards deaf ears or
blind eyes, but that no one even had the good sense to
attack my argument, especially here in our forum, most
argumentative place of all. So I will argue it again,
ever more briefly. We must take a page from
history...we must attend to the ground on which we
stand, or the ground will never hold more than our
weight, never mind the towers of which we talk and
dream...

Serenvs

=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

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Subject:	[novaroma] Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:54:25 EDT

In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> My first thought is that actually a rather small percentage (probably not
over 25%) of the population of Nova Roma is probably willing to pay taxes. I
might be wrong, but this is the impression I have collected through time.
This will have two extremely negative effects:

Cassius:
May I ask on what basis (other than personal feeling) that you base this
assumption? If it is simply a feeling that Nova Roma provides "no benefit,"
then I myself do not agree. If there was no benefit we would have no people
at all. We have many long-term Citizens at this point, folks who have
weathered any number of crises, list arguments, etc. Do you really think our
Citizens have invested such time and effort just because Nova Roma is "free?"

It seems to me that, Nova Roma is not much different from other organizations
which stand for a worthwhile cause. How many members does Audubon Society
have at $35 a year membership? Do they provide more direct benefit to their
members than we would, asking less than half of that sum?

> Salix Astur:
> 1.- It will greatly reduce the amount collected by the treasury.

Cassius:
So you're saying that it would reduce our assured income from zero to "Less
than Zero?" Right now we are a financially stagnant organization. We do get
some funds from the sale of coinage and flags, and a *few* donations... but
all that together still leaves Nova Roma with an insignificant treasury. We
have around two thousand dollars to show for four years of existence. This is
not enough money to do much of anything on behalf of Romanitas, or buy land,
or any of the other things that would benefit us long term.

Salix Astur:
> 2.- It will greatly reduce the number of the assidui, partly
> invalidating the Comitial process.

Cassius:
Now you're saying that the moment Nova Roma asks for a membership fee, people
will leave in a huff? Maybe that is not a bad thing. If folks care so little
for the rebirth of Rome that it's not worth the price of a large pizza for a
full year's Citizenship... it is my opinion that they cannot be counted on
for much meaningful involvement. Yes, they may talk in the forum, but if
pocket change is (for the great majority of us anyway) is beyond their level
of commitment, they will do little to assist the Roman ideal in the long run.

Salix Astur:
> Now, why do I think this will happen? There are several reasons. First,
> let's think about what our average citizen gets from Nova Roma.
(snip)

> So our average citizen does not see the necessity to pay taxes, given
> that those taxes are not providing clear benefits to him.

Cassius:
I actually agree with you that Nova Roma has pretty much "maxed out" the
current free facilities available to us. We have established just about every
"free" facility that the Internet offers, in the hopes of providing a
meaningful infrastructure for our Citizens. You say it's not enough to
warrant taxes. I say that without taxes we cannot *ever* be more, or provide
more for our Citizens.

The "It's not worth it" line of thinking is a trap. If Nova Roma is not worth
investing in now, it is certainly not going to be able to grow, add new
facilities, and be "worth it" in the future. How can we grow without
resources?

Here are just a few of the things that even a moderately sound treasury can
provide for us:

1. The ability to put on live public events within the various Provincia.
(This takes money for advertising, facilities, insurance, etc.)

2. The ability to contribute to worldwide Roman involvement through providing
scholarships, contributing to archaeological efforts, and more.

3. The ability to provide more goods and services to our Citizens. Right now
all we have that isn't a free Internet facility has come from the generosity
of individuals. I provided coinage out of my own pocket for instance. But
that can't keep up forever.

4. The ability to provide ourselves a physical presence through owning a
piece of land we can claim as "sovereign territory"... in my opinion our
greatest possibility for gaining the notice and respect of new potential
Citizens and the rest of the world.

5. The ability to do almost *anything* active. Advertising, publishing,
providing non-electronic information to the public, building our local
Provincia, building reenactor legions, creating and providing teaching
materials, and so much more.

In short, if you want Nova Roma to remain a stagnant "web only" presence,
consider that it is not worth paying for and contribute nothing. If you want
Nova Roma to become a "real world" organization capable of providing real
world infrastructure and facilities, we will have to all help pay for it...
even if that amount is only a pittance per year for most of us.

> Salix Astur:
> If we want to increase the number of assidui, we must "sell" the
> benefits of paying taxes. Let's not talk about civic duty or projects
> in the far future (although those two are also completely vald
> arguments). Let's talk about benefits here and now. Otherwise, the
> response of prospective taxpayers will be to become less and less
> involved in the activities of Nova Roma.

Cassius:
My talk about increasing Nova Roma's potential by giving it "real world"
resources has nothing to do with the far future. The benefit would be almost
immediate. Let's say that next month was "tax time." I believe your
assumption is wrong, and that about 500 people would be willing to part with
$12. That would instantly give Nova Roma $6000 to work with!

I have advocated in the Senate that one-fourth of each person's taxes be held
back for use in their Provincia only. In my Provincia, Nova Britannia, this
new "local treasury" would probably net $45.00. That's not much... but it's a
start. It would be enough to advertise in a couple of local publications, or
pay for a small Provincia gathering. Instant benefits. So, a total of
$1,500 could "stay home" for the local use of the people paying taxes.

That plan would leave the central Treasury with $4,500 yearly, after the
money for the various Provincia was held back. Still over twice the amount
we've managed to scrape together in four years! This would give us an
*instant* means of having real world involvement and helping Nova Roma grow.
We could easily start a small scholarship with that money, (Perhaps $500?)
make a small donation or two to archaeological or other historical Roman
projects (Perhaps two $200 donations, which we could use as an advertisement
on the website) , and still have enough money over to contribute toward a
Land Fund (Perhaps another $500?), fund a first Nova Roma sponsored
gathering, (Cost for facilities and promotion, perhaps another $500) in the
tradition of Roman Days. ("Roman Days" in Bowie, MD is in fact sponsored by
a reenactor legion, and is not a Nova Roma event.)

Hmm. I notice the suggestions above only total $1,700. That still leaves
$2,800 left over... *still* more than is in our treasury now after four
years. Let's say we put $2,000 aside for the future. That would still leave
us $800 for other projects. Easily enough for a couple more small projects.

Money brings possibilities. Poverty brings stagnation. It's just that simple.
Investing in Nova Roma is worth it, in my opinion.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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