Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:31:33 -0300

PompeiaAntoniaCaesar wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I really have to laugh at this one. No disrespect
> intended, but how many would pay voluntarily? How
> many are paying voluntarily now? Unfortunately when
> it comes to parting with the contents of one's pocket
> book, we need more than an honor system.

Salvete,

evergetism was the antique way. It is not so hard to get voluntarily
money. You just have to get a reward, let s say a list of fame on the
main site. Or better: instead of listing the citizens in alfabetical
order with patricians first, list them in order of contributions.
Do the same with the gens.

Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its own
citizen in normal times. I already proposed a link to Amazon.com which
would gain some money, other propaganda on the main site would help too.

There are many different ways of gettin money besides a poll taxe.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] NR COIN REPORT #1
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 20:47:10 EDT

Salvete,

This is the first official report concerning Nova Roma coinage, as of
7/14/200.

The Nova Roma coins were received from the Mint in late April. They were
first offered for sale at "Mithracon" in May. They became available for sale
on the NR website on June 1.

All US orders for Nova Roma coinage received before 7/12 have now been
shipped. There are two or three outstanding orders that have been received
after that time - they will be shipped this next week.

If you have ordered coins and NOT received either your coins or an answer to
an inquiry, my apologies. Work problems (a major personal blowup in my family
business) has caused delays in shipping and answering Email. If you placed a
US order, say four or five weeks ago and haven't heard anything... your coins
should be on the way now and should be received before 7/18. (That would
cover the longest shipping time across the US, six days from Maine to
California.)

TOTAL CITIZEN ORDERS:

Number of US orders received: 25
Total number of coins shipped: 937 Coins

OTHER COINS:

In addition to these 937 coins, 80 coins have been shipped to Flavius Vedius
Germanicus for use in the Mediatlantica Provincia, and 100 coins have been
sent to Q. Fabius Maximus for use in the California Provincia. (No funds have
been remitted to our Monetary Reserve Fund from the Provinciae as yet.)

SALES FROM EVENTS:

An additional number of coins have been sold at "live events." (Mithracon in
CT., and Roman Days in MD.) I do not have the exact number of coins sold at
live events to hand, but these will be provided in the next treasury report
from our Quaestors

ORDERS FROM OUTSIDE THE US:

So far two orders have been received from Provinces outside the US - an order
for 8 NR coins from Australia, (along with too much postage, which will
probably mean I'll send more coins in compensation) and an order of 60 coins
from Canada Orientalis Provincia. As I run a shop during business hours,
(including Saturdays) I have not been able to get to the post office to ship
either of these orders. I hope to take a day off this next week to do this.

INQUIRIES ABOUT COINS:

We have also received five (5) inquiries from Citizens in various overseas
Provincia. I will be emailing the details for shipping right after posting
this report. Two inquiries, however, one from Italy and another from Gaul,
asked for the cost of postage without specifying how many coins are wanted.
Shipping costs are calculated from exact weights, so an amount of coins
needed must be specified for overseas shipments.

MONEY FROM COINS:
The money received from coins is being placed in a separate "Coinage"
account, which I tend to refer to as our "Monetary Reserve Fund." As the
coins are guaranteed reimbursable for .50 cents US each, an amount must be
kept on hand to back up the value of the coins. Excess funds will be used to
pay for more coinage, so that Nova Roma will have a self-sufficient monetary
system. (I'm hoping to be paid back for my $1,889.00 original investment as
well, but will wait until the Reserve Fund has plenty of money in before
asking our Quaestors for personal reimbursements in a few months.)

SUMMATION:

The first NR coins were available at the beginning of May. As a round figure
Nova Roma has sold a little over 1,500 coins in less than four months, with
orders still coming in! Some coins have already been used for Nova Roma
commerce. The first payment for goods with Nova Roma coinage was made by
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, who bought $30 US worth of items with 60 NR
Sestertii during Roman Days. :)

At this early stage, however, most coins have been purchased as
"commemoratives" rather than to be used as currency. This is not a bad thing.
They are an excellent promotional item for Nova Roma, and a worldwide
statement that we are committed to "real world" projects. The coins will gain
in practical use as Nova Roma begins to host it's own live events.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NR COIN REPORT #1
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:51:26 -0700 (PDT)

Thank you so very much for the update ;->!

Valete optime! :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:15:45 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> evergetism was the antique way. It is not so hard to get
voluntarily money. You just have to get a reward, let s say a list of
fame on the main site. Or better: instead of listing the citizens in
alfabetical order with patricians first, list them in order of
contributions. Do the same with the gens.

Cassius respondit:
In four years of soliciting voluntary donations, Nova Roma has netted
*less* than one thousand dollars. We have over 2,000 in the treasury
now, and the majority of this has come from the sale of books and
flags flags on the website, and sales of Nova Roma items (flags, t-
shirts, bumper stickers) at Roman Days.

Voluntary donations can help, but they *do not* net much, and *can
not* be depended on. I agree that we could probably get more
voluntary donations by catering to people's egos. (Listing
contributors on the website, etc.) However, that does not make for a
stable, dependable treasury.

> Limitanus:
> Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its
own citizen in normal times.

Cassius:
I disagree. Check the Oxford Classical Dictionary. Roma Antiqua had a
variety of taxes during ALL periods, including a Poll Tax, sales
taxes, etc. The gathering of taxes and the disbursing of funds was
done by the Senate. Amazingly enough ancient Rome ran on money, and
they didn't get it by passing a hat.

Limitanus:
I already proposed a link to Amazon.com which
> would gain some money, other propaganda on the main site would help
too.

Cassius:
I'm afraid you're a little late. We have had a bookstore link to
Amazon.com in the Macellum for the last *four years*. We sell a good
deal of books, too... but the comissions are small. Sell $800 worth
of books and get a $40 check or so. It's helpful, but cannot fund
Nova Roma.

> Limitanus:
> There are many different ways of gettin money besides a poll taxe.

Cassius:
I used to think that as well. Originally I was the largest opponant
to taxation in Nova Roma. I had grand hopes that we would be funded
totally between private donations, the Ordo Equester, and sales of
State Items such as coins and flags.

I was horribly mistaken. The Ordo Equester has three members after
four years. We do get voluntary donations, but have averaged less
than $500 yearly. We do sell items... but it takes a LOT of effort,
and I've been stuck with the brunt of that. I'm not going to keep
doing it forever. With Donations, the Ordo Equester, and sales of
items, we have averaged $500 income a year!

Let's say we double our efforts in these "non tax" areas. We're only
looking at around $1,000 US per year. Not enough to do any of the
things that "real" organizations do, such as holding live events.
And, still not a guaranteed income. We might make $1,000 one year,
and $500 the next, making it virtually impossible to plan ahead for
anything.

Taxes, on the other hand, give us a stable financial base from which
we can continue to build Nova Roma. Even if only 500 out of our
almost 1000 Citizens pay taxes, (at the proposed rate of $12 yearly)
we make a quantum leap to a dependable $6,000 income per year. New
things become possible. Scholarships. Donations to scholarly and
archaeological funds. A land/building fund for a real world presence.
Live Nova Roma events in the various Provinciae. More goods and
services for our Citizens.

In my opinion, if we do not initiate a tax, Nova Roma will stagnate.
No new services. No new infrastructure. Just the same old "free"
internet stuff, that our Citizens will continue to find inadequate
and will continue to get bored with. We all expect Nova Roma to
grow... but it just plain *cannot* without real-world resources.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: About the "embezzlement" issue
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:04:38 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
>
> So did Moravius leave with NR monies? It appears so, however the
bulk might have been his, and it was his bank account. How should
he have handled it? I would have taken my money back, and given the
rest to the central treasury. However I caution you all that we do
not know how easy that would have been in Britannia, so the
opportunity may never have been there.

Cassius respondit:
I believe the "official" request from Nova Roma to ex-Praetor Vado
was that all monies collected in Britannia be returned to those that
gave them, rather than sending them on to the Central Treasury.

While in a real sense that money (less whatever was Vado's
personally) should have been sent on to the Treasury, it seemed
better to get the money back to the people and let them make their
own decisions. While our treasury is in my opinion inadequate, we
certainly didn't need to collect funds from a Provincia thrown into
chaos by the abandonment of some of it's highest officials.

As far as I am aware, unfortunately, no money was ever refunded to
Citizens. Certainly none was sent on to the Treasury. Apparently it
went to Vado himself. I am rather amazed at this and would VERY much
appreciate hearing about it if anyone has information to the
contrary. Vado developed a huge dislike for anything to do with Nova
Roma, but I had always considered him to be an honest man
nonetheless. I cosider "embezzlement" to be out of charachter for
him, and still don't quite believe that it happened as we think it
must have.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:26:20 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, consul Cassius.

--- cassius622@-------- wrote:
> In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> > My first thought is that actually a rather small percentage
> (probably not
> over 25%) of the population of Nova Roma is probably willing to pay
> taxes. I
> might be wrong, but this is the impression I have collected through
> time.
> This will have two extremely negative effects:
>
> Cassius:
> May I ask on what basis (other than personal feeling) that you base
> this
> assumption? If it is simply a feeling that Nova Roma provides "no
> benefit,"
> then I myself do not agree. If there was no benefit we would have no
> people
> at all. We have many long-term Citizens at this point, folks who have
> weathered any number of crises, list arguments, etc. Do you really
> think our
> Citizens have invested such time and effort just because Nova Roma is
> "free?"

Not at all. I do understand that many citizens will be willing to pay.
But we have to recognize that the number of citizens that will actually
pay will not be the full 1,000 citizens that Nova Roma has. You know
better than I that a good half of these citizens did not even bother to
vote on the last comitia, and I guess that some of the citizens that
voted on that comitia will not be willing to pay (I get this impression
from polls on some provinciae and from general conversations with some
citizens). I don't actually know the real number of citizens that will
pay (25% was a pretty conservative guess), but I think it will be
closer to 25% than to 50% of our full citizenry.

There ARE certainly benefits derived from Nova Roma citizenship that I
among many highly valuate (that's why I write so often on this list);
but maybe not ALL of our citizens share your (and my) point of view.

> It seems to me that, Nova Roma is not much different from other
> organizations
> which stand for a worthwhile cause. How many members does Audubon
> Society
> have at $35 a year membership? Do they provide more direct benefit to
> their
> members than we would, asking less than half of that sum?

As I said in the beginning of my post, I support the concept of taxes
and I am willing to pay. My concern is that many citizens do not share
this point of view. I just wanted to point out that those benefits that
you and I agree there exist should be more "publicized".

> > Salix Astur:
> > 1.- It will greatly reduce the amount collected by the treasury.
>
> Cassius:
> So you're saying that it would reduce our assured income from zero to
> "Less
> than Zero?" Right now we are a financially stagnant organization. We
> do get
> some funds from the sale of coinage and flags, and a *few*
> donations... but
> all that together still leaves Nova Roma with an insignificant
> treasury. We
> have around two thousand dollars to show for four years of existence.
> This is
> not enough money to do much of anything on behalf of Romanitas, or
> buy land,
> or any of the other things that would benefit us long term.

Once again, I have to repeat that I support the establihment of taxes.
I just think that taxes should be better "sold". I said that NOT trying
to convince our citizens to pay will reduce the amount collected, as
opposed to trying to convince them.

> Salix Astur:
> > 2.- It will greatly reduce the number of the assidui, partly
> > invalidating the Comitial process.
>
> Cassius:
> Now you're saying that the moment Nova Roma asks for a membership
> fee, people
> will leave in a huff?

I didn't say that. I said it will reduce the number of assidui (those
who pay taxes and can vote), not the number of citizens (assidui +
capiti censi). By reducing the number of "qualified" voters, the
comitial process will be partly invalidated, for the vote of the
comitia will actually represent the will of a lesser part of our
citizenry (as opposed to having a high proportion of assidui among our
citizenry).

[Citizens leaving]
> Maybe that is not a bad thing. If folks care so
> little
> for the rebirth of Rome that it's not worth the price of a large
> pizza for a
> full year's Citizenship... it is my opinion that they cannot be
> counted on
> for much meaningful involvement. Yes, they may talk in the forum, but
> if
> pocket change is (for the great majority of us anyway) is beyond
> their level
> of commitment, they will do little to assist the Roman ideal in the
> long run.

Citizens leaving ALWAYS represent a loss for Nova Roma; never a gain.

> Salix Astur:
> > Now, why do I think this will happen? There are several reasons.
> First,
> > let's think about what our average citizen gets from Nova Roma.
> (snip)
>
> > So our average citizen does not see the necessity to pay taxes,
> given
> > that those taxes are not providing clear benefits to him.
>
> Cassius:
> I actually agree with you that Nova Roma has pretty much "maxed out"
> the
> current free facilities available to us. We have established just
> about every
> "free" facility that the Internet offers, in the hopes of providing a
>
> meaningful infrastructure for our Citizens. You say it's not enough
> to
> warrant taxes. I say that without taxes we cannot *ever* be more, or
> provide
> more for our Citizens.
>
> The "It's not worth it" line of thinking is a trap. If Nova Roma is
> not worth
> investing in now, it is certainly not going to be able to grow, add
> new
> facilities, and be "worth it" in the future. How can we grow without
> resources?

Once again, I repeat that I am in favour of taxation.

> Here are just a few of the things that even a moderately sound
> treasury can
> provide for us:
>
> 1. The ability to put on live public events within the various
> Provincia.
> (This takes money for advertising, facilities, insurance, etc.)
>
> 2. The ability to contribute to worldwide Roman involvement through
> providing
> scholarships, contributing to archaeological efforts, and more.
>
> 3. The ability to provide more goods and services to our Citizens.
> Right now
> all we have that isn't a free Internet facility has come from the
> generosity
> of individuals. I provided coinage out of my own pocket for
> instance. But
> that can't keep up forever.
>
> 4. The ability to provide ourselves a physical presence through
> owning a
> piece of land we can claim as "sovereign territory"... in my opinion
> our
> greatest possibility for gaining the notice and respect of new
> potential
> Citizens and the rest of the world.
>
> 5. The ability to do almost *anything* active. Advertising,
> publishing,
> providing non-electronic information to the public, building our
> local
> Provincia, building reenactor legions, creating and providing
> teaching
> materials, and so much more.

Now we are finally getting to the point! You see? As simple as that.
You are publicizing the benefits that could come from our taxes!
This is what I called for (albeit with greater detail and with an even
greater broadcast). Knowing what we have to offer will help citizens to
decide to pay taxes.

> In short, if you want Nova Roma to remain a stagnant "web only"
> presence,
> consider that it is not worth paying for and contribute nothing. If
> you want
> Nova Roma to become a "real world" organization capable of providing
> real
> world infrastructure and facilities, we will have to all help pay for
> it...
> even if that amount is only a pittance per year for most of us.

Once again, I repeat that I am in favour of taxation.

> > Salix Astur:
> > If we want to increase the number of assidui, we must "sell" the
> > benefits of paying taxes. Let's not talk about civic duty or
> projects
> > in the far future (although those two are also completely vald
> > arguments). Let's talk about benefits here and now. Otherwise, the
> > response of prospective taxpayers will be to become less and less
> > involved in the activities of Nova Roma.
>
> Cassius:
> My talk about increasing Nova Roma's potential by giving it "real
> world"
> resources has nothing to do with the far future. The benefit would be
> almost
> immediate. Let's say that next month was "tax time." I believe your
> assumption is wrong, and that about 500 people would be willing to
> part with
> $12. That would instantly give Nova Roma $6000 to work with!
>
> I have advocated in the Senate that one-fourth of each person's taxes
> be held
> back for use in their Provincia only. In my Provincia, Nova
> Britannia, this
> new "local treasury" would probably net $45.00. That's not much...
> but it's a
> start. It would be enough to advertise in a couple of local
> publications, or
> pay for a small Provincia gathering. Instant benefits. So, a total
> of
> $1,500 could "stay home" for the local use of the people paying
> taxes.
>
> That plan would leave the central Treasury with $4,500 yearly, after
> the
> money for the various Provincia was held back. Still over twice the
> amount
> we've managed to scrape together in four years! This would give us an
>
> *instant* means of having real world involvement and helping Nova
> Roma grow.
> We could easily start a small scholarship with that money, (Perhaps
> $500?)
> make a small donation or two to archaeological or other historical
> Roman
> projects (Perhaps two $200 donations, which we could use as an
> advertisement
> on the website) , and still have enough money over to contribute
> toward a
> Land Fund (Perhaps another $500?), fund a first Nova Roma sponsored
> gathering, (Cost for facilities and promotion, perhaps another $500)
> in the
> tradition of Roman Days. ("Roman Days" in Bowie, MD is in fact
> sponsored by
> a reenactor legion, and is not a Nova Roma event.)
>
> Hmm. I notice the suggestions above only total $1,700. That still
> leaves
> $2,800 left over... *still* more than is in our treasury now after
> four
> years. Let's say we put $2,000 aside for the future. That would still
> leave
> us $800 for other projects. Easily enough for a couple more small
> projects.

See above.

> Money brings possibilities. Poverty brings stagnation. It's just that
> simple.
> Investing in Nova Roma is worth it, in my opinion.

Once again, I repeat that I am in favour of taxation.

Please, read posts more carefully before jumping to wrong conclusions.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:33:51 -0700 (PDT)

Avete Omnes,

My response to all of this is you won't know until you
try. As a fundraiser for several years I learned that
if you don't ask you don't get. I will go even a step
further to say that eventually we must become a
professional non-profit organization. All successful
non-profits operate this way. Revenue is so essential
that without it any organization is dooomed. People
will become frustrated that goals aren't met because
progress will be too slow, people will be overworked
and underfinanced, interest will wain and may
eventually fizzle out. We can't all just live on pipe
dreams for the rest of our lives and hope for what we
long for. All that's being asked of cives is what any
other organization asks of it's members, even less.
That is not unreasonable.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

--- cassius622@-------- wrote:
> In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur
> <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> > My first thought is that actually a rather small
> percentage (probably not
> over 25%) of the population of Nova Roma is probably
> willing to pay taxes. I
> might be wrong, but this is the impression I have
> collected through time.
> This will have two extremely negative effects:
>
> Cassius:
> May I ask on what basis (other than personal
> feeling) that you base this
> assumption? If it is simply a feeling that Nova Roma
> provides "no benefit,"
> then I myself do not agree. If there was no benefit
> we would have no people
> at all. We have many long-term Citizens at this
> point, folks who have
> weathered any number of crises, list arguments, etc.
> Do you really think our
> Citizens have invested such time and effort just
> because Nova Roma is "free?"
>
> It seems to me that, Nova Roma is not much different
> from other organizations
> which stand for a worthwhile cause. How many members
> does Audubon Society
> have at $35 a year membership? Do they provide more
> direct benefit to their
> members than we would, asking less than half of that
> sum?
>
> > Salix Astur:
> > 1.- It will greatly reduce the amount collected by
> the treasury.
>
> Cassius:
> So you're saying that it would reduce our assured
> income from zero to "Less
> than Zero?" Right now we are a financially stagnant
> organization. We do get
> some funds from the sale of coinage and flags, and a
> *few* donations... but
> all that together still leaves Nova Roma with an
> insignificant treasury. We
> have around two thousand dollars to show for four
> years of existence. This is
> not enough money to do much of anything on behalf of
> Romanitas, or buy land,
> or any of the other things that would benefit us
> long term.
>
>
> Salix Astur:
> > 2.- It will greatly reduce the number of the
> assidui, partly
> > invalidating the Comitial process.
>
> Cassius:
> Now you're saying that the moment Nova Roma asks for
> a membership fee, people
> will leave in a huff? Maybe that is not a bad thing.
> If folks care so little
> for the rebirth of Rome that it's not worth the
> price of a large pizza for a
> full year's Citizenship... it is my opinion that
> they cannot be counted on
> for much meaningful involvement. Yes, they may talk
> in the forum, but if
> pocket change is (for the great majority of us
> anyway) is beyond their level
> of commitment, they will do little to assist the
> Roman ideal in the long run.
>
> Salix Astur:
> > Now, why do I think this will happen? There are
> several reasons. First,
> > let's think about what our average citizen gets
> from Nova Roma.
> (snip)
>
> > So our average citizen does not see the necessity
> to pay taxes, given
> > that those taxes are not providing clear benefits
> to him.
>
> Cassius:
> I actually agree with you that Nova Roma has pretty
> much "maxed out" the
> current free facilities available to us. We have
> established just about every
> "free" facility that the Internet offers, in the
> hopes of providing a
> meaningful infrastructure for our Citizens. You say
> it's not enough to
> warrant taxes. I say that without taxes we cannot
> *ever* be more, or provide
> more for our Citizens.
>
> The "It's not worth it" line of thinking is a trap.
> If Nova Roma is not worth
> investing in now, it is certainly not going to be
> able to grow, add new
> facilities, and be "worth it" in the future. How can
> we grow without
> resources?
>
> Here are just a few of the things that even a
> moderately sound treasury can
> provide for us:
>
> 1. The ability to put on live public events within
> the various Provincia.
> (This takes money for advertising, facilities,
> insurance, etc.)
>
> 2. The ability to contribute to worldwide Roman
> involvement through providing
> scholarships, contributing to archaeological
> efforts, and more.
>
> 3. The ability to provide more goods and services to
> our Citizens. Right now
> all we have that isn't a free Internet facility has
> come from the generosity
> of individuals. I provided coinage out of my own
> pocket for instance. But
> that can't keep up forever.
>
> 4. The ability to provide ourselves a physical
> presence through owning a
> piece of land we can claim as "sovereign
> territory"... in my opinion our
> greatest possibility for gaining the notice and
> respect of new potential
> Citizens and the rest of the world.
>
> 5. The ability to do almost *anything* active.
> Advertising, publishing,
> providing non-electronic information to the public,
> building our local
> Provincia, building reenactor legions, creating and
> providing teaching
> materials, and so much more.
>
> In short, if you want Nova Roma to remain a stagnant
> "web only" presence,
> consider that it is not worth paying for and
> contribute nothing. If you want
> Nova Roma to become a "real world" organization
> capable of providing real
> world infrastructure and facilities, we will have to
> all help pay for it...
> even if that amount is only a pittance per year for
> most of us.
>
> > Salix Astur:
> > If we want to increase the number of assidui, we
> must "sell" the
> > benefits of paying taxes. Let's not talk about
> civic duty or projects
> > in the far future (although those two are also
> completely vald
> > arguments). Let's talk about benefits here and
> now. Otherwise, the
> > response of prospective taxpayers will be to
> become less and less
> > involved in the activities of Nova Roma.
>
> Cassius:
> My talk about increasing Nova Roma's potential by
> giving it "real world"
> resources has nothing to do with the far future. The
> benefit would be almost
> immediate. Let's say that next month was "tax time."
> I believe your
> assumption is wrong, and that about 500 people would
> be willing to part with
> $12. That would instantly give Nova Roma $6000 to
> work with!
>
> I have advocated in the Senate that one-fourth of
> each person's taxes be held
> back for use in their Provincia only. In my
> Provincia, Nova Britannia, this
> new "local treasury" would probably net $45.00.
> That's not much... but it's a
> start. It would be enough to advertise in a couple
> of local publications, or
> pay for a small Provincia gathering. Instant
> benefits. So, a total of
> $1,500 could "stay home" for the local use of the
> people paying taxes.
>
> That plan would leave the central Treasury with
> $4,500 yearly, after the
> money for the various Provincia was held back. Still
> over twice the amount
> we've managed to scrape together in four years! This
> would give us an
>
=== message truncated ===

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:35:26 -0700 (PDT)

Avete,

Please excuse my spelling errors on the last email as
my spellcheck was not working.

Vale,

Pomepeia Antonia Caesar

--- cassius622@-------- wrote:
> In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur
> <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> > My first thought is that actually a rather small
> percentage (probably not
> over 25%) of the population of Nova Roma is probably
> willing to pay taxes. I
> might be wrong, but this is the impression I have
> collected through time.
> This will have two extremely negative effects:
>
> Cassius:
> May I ask on what basis (other than personal
> feeling) that you base this
> assumption? If it is simply a feeling that Nova Roma
> provides "no benefit,"
> then I myself do not agree. If there was no benefit
> we would have no people
> at all. We have many long-term Citizens at this
> point, folks who have
> weathered any number of crises, list arguments, etc.
> Do you really think our
> Citizens have invested such time and effort just
> because Nova Roma is "free?"
>
> It seems to me that, Nova Roma is not much different
> from other organizations
> which stand for a worthwhile cause. How many members
> does Audubon Society
> have at $35 a year membership? Do they provide more
> direct benefit to their
> members than we would, asking less than half of that
> sum?
>
> > Salix Astur:
> > 1.- It will greatly reduce the amount collected by
> the treasury.
>
> Cassius:
> So you're saying that it would reduce our assured
> income from zero to "Less
> than Zero?" Right now we are a financially stagnant
> organization. We do get
> some funds from the sale of coinage and flags, and a
> *few* donations... but
> all that together still leaves Nova Roma with an
> insignificant treasury. We
> have around two thousand dollars to show for four
> years of existence. This is
> not enough money to do much of anything on behalf of
> Romanitas, or buy land,
> or any of the other things that would benefit us
> long term.
>
>
> Salix Astur:
> > 2.- It will greatly reduce the number of the
> assidui, partly
> > invalidating the Comitial process.
>
> Cassius:
> Now you're saying that the moment Nova Roma asks for
> a membership fee, people
> will leave in a huff? Maybe that is not a bad thing.
> If folks care so little
> for the rebirth of Rome that it's not worth the
> price of a large pizza for a
> full year's Citizenship... it is my opinion that
> they cannot be counted on
> for much meaningful involvement. Yes, they may talk
> in the forum, but if
> pocket change is (for the great majority of us
> anyway) is beyond their level
> of commitment, they will do little to assist the
> Roman ideal in the long run.
>
> Salix Astur:
> > Now, why do I think this will happen? There are
> several reasons. First,
> > let's think about what our average citizen gets
> from Nova Roma.
> (snip)
>
> > So our average citizen does not see the necessity
> to pay taxes, given
> > that those taxes are not providing clear benefits
> to him.
>
> Cassius:
> I actually agree with you that Nova Roma has pretty
> much "maxed out" the
> current free facilities available to us. We have
> established just about every
> "free" facility that the Internet offers, in the
> hopes of providing a
> meaningful infrastructure for our Citizens. You say
> it's not enough to
> warrant taxes. I say that without taxes we cannot
> *ever* be more, or provide
> more for our Citizens.
>
> The "It's not worth it" line of thinking is a trap.
> If Nova Roma is not worth
> investing in now, it is certainly not going to be
> able to grow, add new
> facilities, and be "worth it" in the future. How can
> we grow without
> resources?
>
> Here are just a few of the things that even a
> moderately sound treasury can
> provide for us:
>
> 1. The ability to put on live public events within
> the various Provincia.
> (This takes money for advertising, facilities,
> insurance, etc.)
>
> 2. The ability to contribute to worldwide Roman
> involvement through providing
> scholarships, contributing to archaeological
> efforts, and more.
>
> 3. The ability to provide more goods and services to
> our Citizens. Right now
> all we have that isn't a free Internet facility has
> come from the generosity
> of individuals. I provided coinage out of my own
> pocket for instance. But
> that can't keep up forever.
>
> 4. The ability to provide ourselves a physical
> presence through owning a
> piece of land we can claim as "sovereign
> territory"... in my opinion our
> greatest possibility for gaining the notice and
> respect of new potential
> Citizens and the rest of the world.
>
> 5. The ability to do almost *anything* active.
> Advertising, publishing,
> providing non-electronic information to the public,
> building our local
> Provincia, building reenactor legions, creating and
> providing teaching
> materials, and so much more.
>
> In short, if you want Nova Roma to remain a stagnant
> "web only" presence,
> consider that it is not worth paying for and
> contribute nothing. If you want
> Nova Roma to become a "real world" organization
> capable of providing real
> world infrastructure and facilities, we will have to
> all help pay for it...
> even if that amount is only a pittance per year for
> most of us.
>
> > Salix Astur:
> > If we want to increase the number of assidui, we
> must "sell" the
> > benefits of paying taxes. Let's not talk about
> civic duty or projects
> > in the far future (although those two are also
> completely vald
> > arguments). Let's talk about benefits here and
> now. Otherwise, the
> > response of prospective taxpayers will be to
> become less and less
> > involved in the activities of Nova Roma.
>
> Cassius:
> My talk about increasing Nova Roma's potential by
> giving it "real world"
> resources has nothing to do with the far future. The
> benefit would be almost
> immediate. Let's say that next month was "tax time."
> I believe your
> assumption is wrong, and that about 500 people would
> be willing to part with
> $12. That would instantly give Nova Roma $6000 to
> work with!
>
> I have advocated in the Senate that one-fourth of
> each person's taxes be held
> back for use in their Provincia only. In my
> Provincia, Nova Britannia, this
> new "local treasury" would probably net $45.00.
> That's not much... but it's a
> start. It would be enough to advertise in a couple
> of local publications, or
> pay for a small Provincia gathering. Instant
> benefits. So, a total of
> $1,500 could "stay home" for the local use of the
> people paying taxes.
>
> That plan would leave the central Treasury with
> $4,500 yearly, after the
> money for the various Provincia was held back. Still
> over twice the amount
> we've managed to scrape together in four years! This
> would give us an
>
=== message truncated ===

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes: A Mercantile Approach
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:35:42 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<previous posts snipped>>

> DRUSUS: The Senate is required to prepare the budget you have asked
> for. The deadline for this is the last day of November, as per the
> Constitution. However they can't prepare the budget until they decide
> IF they will implement taxes, and if so what the rate will be. The
> $12
> is the proposal before the Senate, but they may decide on a different
> rate. Once they decide on the matter of taxes, then they will have
> the
> information they need to begain preparing next years budget.

That budget should be greatly mediatized, to show the citizenry what
their money will be invested in. And opinion polls will have to be made
to know the actual amount of citizens that are willing to pay, so the
Senate has "the information they need to begain (sic) preparing next
years budget".

<<previous posts snipped>>

> DRUSUS: I share your concern about the costs of sending the money
> across the Atlantic twice, and fear that this will result in the
> European Civies getting less return for thier taxes. I would like to
> see the taxes in Europe collected in Euros, and be placed in a bank
> in
> an EC nation, under the control of the Senate. The problem that
> occured in Britannia didn't occur because the money was in Europe,
> but
> was a result of the Senate not having control over the funds. The
> same
> thing could have happened if the money was under the direct control
> of
> a Propraetor in the USA.

I completely agree with your opinions here.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:03:17 EDT

In a message dated 7/14/2001 5:47:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
loos@-------- writes:

> Rome never had taxes on its own
> citizen in normal times.

I often wonder why people make such statements. Does anyone read Roman
history at all?

Rome had various taxes on different things throughout her history. Depending
on the period, there was tax and structure and it was implemented.

Valete
QFM

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Subject:	[novaroma] Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:27:24 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:

> Not at all. I do understand that many citizens will be willing to
pay. But we have to recognize that the number of citizens that will
actually pay will not be the full 1,000 citizens that Nova Roma has.
You know better than I that a good half of these citizens did not
even bother to vote on the last comitia, and I guess that some of the
citizens that voted on that comitia will not be willing to pay (I get
this impression from polls on some provinciae and from general
conversations with some citizens). I don't actually know the real
number of citizens that will pay (25% was a pretty conservative
guess), but I think it will be closer to 25% than to 50% of our full
citizenry.
>
> There ARE certainly benefits derived from Nova Roma citizenship
that I among many highly valuate (that's why I write so often on this
list); but maybe not ALL of our citizens share your (and my) point of
view.

Cassius respondit:
My apologies for thinking you were against the very concept of
taxation. Your "arguing the other side" of the issue was thorough
enough to warrant a detailed response... I meant no offense and I
hope none is taken.

You are quite right that more focus should be made on the benefits of
taxation. This *will* happen. There will be detailed information
various uses for tax money, benefits to be derived from Nova Roma
having an adequate treasury, and all the rest.

However, the physical foundations for taxation must be laid before
all the "sizzle" can be put on the "steak". Another funding "trap"
we've fallen into is cycles of continuous delay. It's *so* easy to
keep putting the mechanics of the issue off forever, so that funding
for Nova Roma never becomes a reality.

"Let's do a study first!" "Let's do a Poll!" Let's do *several*
polls!" Let's figure out *exactly* what to do with every dollar
first!" "Let's figure out every potential problem first!" "Let's
consider the folks who might not want to pay taxes!" "Let's figure
out how to deal with every single individual who might not be able to
pay!"

In short... let's do anything, *everything* to delay getting the
physical process of taxation started. Let's talk the issue to death
and get it so confused that taxes never become a reality.

I am NOT accusing you of being "for" any of this, Salix Astur, but
seeing a neverending flow of it on the list is getting me upset.

I'm tired of folks who don't think enough of Nova Roma to figure its
worth paying a few dollars a year for. I've put my money where my
mouth is. Where did we get flags from? Me. My pockets. First I spent
$250 of my own money for flags. Seeing they were successful, I then
spent $525 of my own money for more flags. Where did we get coins
from? Me. My pockets. I just went into debt to the tune of a little
over $1,800.00 US getting Nova Roma coinage.

My pockets aren't that deep. I'm not rich. I just care about Nova
Roma enough to put my money where my mouth is. Can you even imagine
my feelings at seeing someone all upset because they don't want to
pay $12.00 a year? My heart bleeds for them. Really. Hell, why
should they want to pay? I, and a couple others will no doubt
continue to put ourselves in debt for them so they can enjoy being
Romans for free.

I'm particularly amused by the recent postings that the Senate
is "not considering the will of the people" in the taxation issue.
The majority of Citizens have been hoping to see Nova Roma get some
real funding for years now... several people have quit their
Citizenship because NR can't get it's financial act together.

The solution is simple. If you don't want to pay, *don't*. Smaller
Comitia means more dedicated Comitia as far as I can see. The folks
who don't want to invest in Nova Roma's future can still get a free
ride. I firmly believe they'll be proven wrong in the long run, and
that Nova Roma will be renewed by gaining some "real world" ability
to grow and build.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] passing of a sister-in -law-thank you all
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:35:16 EDT

Salvete,
You are all so kind and generous in your words of condolence. It means
a lot for us to know that even in the far flung edges of our dream we can
still take time to help each other. Pam was often desperately ill and more
than once looked boldly into the world that comes after this one. It heals
knowing that your thoughts are so lovingly given and with such depth.

Thank you.

Drusila

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:47:32 -0700

Michel Loos wrote:
> Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its own
> citizen in normal times.

Ave,

Prove your statement Manius Villius! Where are your sources? Where are
you getting your information or are you just making it up as you go
along?

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Personal Views on Tax
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 01:11:51 -0400

Salvete cives et amici,

This whole tax issue is obviously very important. Although I can't stress
enough how vital the decision comming up is. It could "make it or brake it"
for this nation. If done wrong it will waste valuable time, money, and
citizens. In the worst case scenario, I can see how this could cause a
massive population drop, maybe even destroy us.

I hate being negative so lets talk about the positives. There are huge
benefits if this tax is done properly. The trick is find out what is
"proper". Seeing that no general polling has taken place we could be
skipping over I vital step. Could this be a fatal flaw? I hope not...

The first few years with a implemented tax should be as *simple* and
*productive* as possible. Get an overall feeling of how the populace
responds to a real life tax.

What would be simple and productive? I believe the best solution is a unset
tax. Let the citizens choose the amount they wish to pay. If it is $5.00 or
$50.00 they are still paying a tax and is better then having one pay nothing
at all. It is obvious you shall not please everyone with a set tax of
$12.00. The unset tax seems like a happy medium and a great place to work
out from. We are just starting out, we do not need to rush this, lets take
it slow and do it right on the first shot. Donec infra.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,

One thing is evident on this list. We know who reads
and who doesn't. It would help if people did a little
research before making such bold statements. I find
it increasingly frustrating that after all the reasons
presented in favor of paying dues like anybody else in
any other organization, that there are still arguments
against it. I can only say that dues will weed out
the undesireables who really have nothing to
contribute to NR beyond posting historical
inaccuracies.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

--- Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
<alexious@--------> wrote:
>
>
> Michel Loos wrote:
> > Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never
> had taxes on its own
> > citizen in normal times.
>
> Ave,
>
> Prove your statement Manius Villius! Where are your
> sources? Where are
> you getting your information or are you just making
> it up as you go
> along?
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Personal Views on Tax
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:36:23 -0700 (PDT)

--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote:
>
> Salvete cives et amici,
>
> This whole tax issue is obviously very important.
> Although I can't stress
> enough how vital the decision comming up is. It
> could "make it or brake it"
> for this nation. If done wrong it will waste
> valuable time, money, and
> citizens. In the worst case scenario, I can see how
> this could cause a
> massive population drop, maybe even destroy us.
>
> I hate being negative so lets talk about the
> positives. There are huge
> benefits if this tax is done properly. The trick is
> find out what is
> "proper". Seeing that no general polling has taken
> place we could be
> skipping over I vital step. Could this be a fatal
> flaw? I hope not...
>
> The first few years with a implemented tax should be
> as *simple* and
> *productive* as possible. Get an overall feeling of
> how the populace
> responds to a real life tax.
>
> What would be simple and productive? I believe the
> best solution is a unset
> tax. Let the citizens choose the amount they wish to
> pay. If it is $5.00 or
> $50.00 they are still paying a tax and is better
> then having one pay nothing
> at all. It is obvious you shall not please everyone
> with a set tax of
> $12.00. The unset tax seems like a happy medium and
> a great place to work
> out from. We are just starting out, we do not need
> to rush this, lets take
> it slow and do it right on the first shot. Donec

Ave,

I agree wholeheartedly. I think the unset tax is a
wonderful idea as long as the minimum is $12.00.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>

infra.
>
> "Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum
> mater ab vitualis"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is
> often the mother of virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
> Canada Orientalis Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
>
> Gens Claudia Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
> --
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Personal Views on Tax
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 05:39:41 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@b...> wrote:

SNIP
>
> What would be simple and productive? I believe the best solution is
a unset
> tax. Let the citizens choose the amount they wish to pay. If it is
$5.00 or
> $50.00 they are still paying a tax and is better then having one pay
nothing
> at all. It is obvious you shall not please everyone with a set tax of
> $12.00. The unset tax seems like a happy medium and a great place to
work
> out from. We are just starting out, we do not need to rush this,
lets take
> it slow and do it right on the first shot. Donec infra.
>

Salve Amuli Claudi,

I see two problems with your idea.

The first is there has to be a minimum ammount. If someone decides to
pay one dollar, the ammount collected isn't worth the effort it takes
to collect the money, and the five dollars you mentioned would be
right at the break even point. If we did this I would suggest that the
twelve dollar tax that is being discussed be considered the minimum
ammount that would be accepted.

The second problem is it makes it even harder for the Senate to plan
ahead. With a set tax they at least have the option of estimating X
dollars if 50% of the citizens pay, and Y dollars if only 40% pay.
With a unset tax, they won't even be able to make an estimate and will
have to put off any planning until after the tax is actually collected.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 06:18:08 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
>
>
> Michel Loos wrote:
> > Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its own
> > citizen in normal times.
>
> Ave,
>
> Prove your statement Manius Villius! Where are your sources? Where are
> you getting your information or are you just making it up as you go
> along?
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Lets look at the fees and taxes that Roman Citizens did pay at various
times.

The Decumae was a ten percent income tax levied on the income from
tenants of the Ager Publicus.

The Scriptura was the grazing fee charged for letting cattle feed on
the Ager Publicus.

The Portorium was the harbor tax collected on imports and exports.

The Salinae was the fee collected from those engaged in salt
production, Salt was a state monopoly, with the saltworks let out on bid.

The Metalla was levied on all mines.

The Centesima was the 1% sales tax.

The Vicesima Manumissionis was a tax at the rate of 5% of the value of
a slave, and had to be paid when a slave was manumitted.

The Vicesima Hereditatium was a 5% inheritance tax. The reason that
Caracalla extended the citizenship to all free men in the empire was
this tax was only paid by Roman citizens, and he wanted to raise mor
money.

The Quinquagesima was a 2% sales tax levied on the sale of a slave.

The Aes Uxorium was the tax levied on bachlors.

The Ostiarium was a tax on doors.

The Columnarium was a tax on columns.

Roman citizens were excused from the Tributum after the Punic wars
(execpt in times of emergancy) under the later Republic, however it
was restored under the Empire, (at the discretion of the Princeps)

So Roman citizens did in fact pay many different taxes, and for most
of them the total was more than $12.00 a year.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:27:28 -0700

Ave,

Thank you for posting this wonderful piece of information! Can you
please provide sources where you got this information?

Respectfully,

L. Cornelius Sulla

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Michel Loos wrote:
> > > Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its
> own
> > > citizen in normal times.
> >
> > Ave,
> >
> > Prove your statement Manius Villius! Where are your sources? Where
> are
> > you getting your information or are you just making it up as you go
> > along?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Lets look at the fees and taxes that Roman Citizens did pay at various
> times.
>
> The Decumae was a ten percent income tax levied on the income from
> tenants of the Ager Publicus.
>
> The Scriptura was the grazing fee charged for letting cattle feed on
> the Ager Publicus.
>
> The Portorium was the harbor tax collected on imports and exports.
>
> The Salinae was the fee collected from those engaged in salt
> production, Salt was a state monopoly, with the saltworks let out on
> bid.
>
> The Metalla was levied on all mines.
>
> The Centesima was the 1% sales tax.
>
> The Vicesima Manumissionis was a tax at the rate of 5% of the value of
> a slave, and had to be paid when a slave was manumitted.
>
> The Vicesima Hereditatium was a 5% inheritance tax. The reason that
> Caracalla extended the citizenship to all free men in the empire was
> this tax was only paid by Roman citizens, and he wanted to raise mor
> money.
>
> The Quinquagesima was a 2% sales tax levied on the sale of a slave.
>
> The Aes Uxorium was the tax levied on bachlors.
>
> The Ostiarium was a tax on doors.
>
> The Columnarium was a tax on columns.
>
> Roman citizens were excused from the Tributum after the Punic wars
> (execpt in times of emergancy) under the later Republic, however it
> was restored under the Empire, (at the discretion of the Princeps)
>
> So Roman citizens did in fact pay many different taxes, and for most
> of them the total was more than $12.00 a year.
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:25:51 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Thank you for posting this wonderful piece of information! Can you
> please provide sources where you got this information?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> L. Cornelius Sulla
>

Salve Luci Corneli,

You can find most of the in formation in Smith's artcle on the
Vectigalia, and the links it contains.

http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Vectigalia.html

The information on the Tributium was from memory, however Smith's
confirms it, though they date the end of the tributium to the end of
the Macedonian war (147 BCE).

http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Tributum.html

Since 143 BCE is 606 AUC, perhaps we can be historicaly accurate and
promise to end the tributium the Senate is about to impose (Hopefully)
when Nova Roma is 606 years old. ;o)

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: At the restaurant (was Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs. people)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:35:41 +0200

Salve Gaia Flacca,

> That's fair, and I understand your not buying into this idea anyway.
>
> However, I feel that I get a lot from NovaRoma, and I would say that
> anything that I donated or gave was giving me something for my money,
> but that's just my thoughts.
>
> Nice to hear from you, anyway. How's Belgium?
>

Well, this is somewhat off topic, but glad you ask. The weather is somewhat
"moody" here, due to the marime climate (we rarely have truly warm summers
here). Other than that, many people are going on vacation to warmer places,
including myself next week, and the newspapers continue to sell us the same
bad news ;).

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin Language
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:40:02 +0200

Salve Maximina Octavia,

Well, thank you for the compliments! I might be able to teach people the
basics of Latin, but I'm not a professional teacher, and (here comes the
best part) there is already Latin being taught in NR, at Formosanus' (that's
my pater) Schola Latina. I think the URL is groups.yahoo.com/ScholaLatina.

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1530
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 06:43:49 -0700 (PDT)

'novaroma@--------' wrote:
====
- There are 23 messages in this issue.
-
- Topics in this digest:
-
- 1. Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
- From: demipagan@--------
- 2. Re: Lead pipes, and calcium deposits
- From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
- 3. Buy The Coins
- From: Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
- 4. Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
- ...'

> Take a look to the attachment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Invitation to THE GRAND OPENING OF PROVINCIA THULE 22/7
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:14:22 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium XIX about the Invitation to THE GRAND OPENING OF
PROVINCIA THULE 22/7

I. It is a great pleasure for me, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor
Thules, to invite all citizens in Provincia Thule and Nova Roma to my
residens in the Propraetorium S�var in the north of Regio Suecica. The date
of this occation is 2001, Sunday July 22, 11.00

II. Program for this event
1. I will give a short expose over the establishment of my regim in
Provincia Thule as Propraetor and the history of the Province. (11.30)
2. Every Citizens or member of my Cohors Propraetoris will give a short
report on any given subject. (12.00)
3. I will then solemnly inaugurate the present infrastrature of the
Provincia. (12.30)
4. There may also be an announcement of some appointments and some further
local meetings. (12.45)
5. Tea and sandwiches will be served. (13.15)
5. After that the meeting will continue at a informal level. (13.20)

III. I am of course fully aware of the fact that it will be hard for my
Legati and other citizens from far away to attend to this meeting. But I
feel that it is formally appropriate to invite all and I would seriously
enjoy to met distant guests and cives. My house is open for all Novaromani
and sympathizers. There will be beds for all and food will be served for
those who decide to come from a far distance. You are all heartily welcome!
:-)

IV. THE GRAND OPENING OF PROVINCIA THULE will also be specially noticed at
or provincial website at http://thule.novaroma.org/

V. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Given July 15th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus
and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Gens Member
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:29:01 -0500

Avete Omnes!!!

Gens Ulleria has a new family member.

My Shield Brother Lewis has asked to become a Civis Nova Roma.

Please welcome Clovius Ullerius Ursus.

He'll be subscribing to the main list soon.

He lives near Fort Wayne, Indiana and is fairly active in the SCA.
We've known each other about 14 years and he's one of the few folks I
trust with keys to my home.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives et Paterfamilias
My homestead
http://www.river-wood-samfelag.org
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/

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Subject:	[novaroma] TV commercial
From:	"Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:46:54 -0000

Salvete Omnes,
if this isn't known yet then it is now:

http://ca.com/hellotomorrow/index.htm

Valete,
Diana Meridia Aurelia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Unset Tax
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:25:03 -0300

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:

>
> Michel Loos wrote:
>
>>Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its own
>>citizen in normal times.
>>
>
> Ave,
>
> Prove your statement Manius Villius! Where are your sources? Where are
> you getting your information or are you just making it up as you go
> along?
>

Salve,

Rephrasing: no direct taxes and under the republic and principate.
ref: almost any book about the subject, check Finley for instance.
or
http://www.getty.edu/artsednet/resources/Trajan/Lesson2/hist1.html
where it is badly phrased, since the "citizen of the empire" not "living
in Rome" were no Roman citizens, just subjects. And there were many
Roman Citizens not living in Rome.

I don t remember exactly when the citizens were first taxed but it was
very short time before Caracalla s edict (early 3rd century).

What was the reason for the Social War in your mind: the right to
participate in elections ? No it was the right to not pay taxes and
share the wealth from the taxes paid by the provinces.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Unset Tax
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:24:06 -0000

Salvete,

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Michel Loos wrote:
> > > Try to get money from outside of NR, Rome never had taxes on its own
> > > citizen in normal times.
> >
> > Ave,
> >
> > Prove your statement Manius Villius! Where are your sources?
Where are
> > you getting your information or are you just making it up as you go
> > along?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Lets look at the fees and taxes that Roman Citizens did pay at various
> times.
>
> The Decumae was a ten percent income tax levied on the income from
> tenants of the Ager Publicus.
>
> The Scriptura was the grazing fee charged for letting cattle feed on
> the Ager Publicus.
>

Those are not taxes, those are the rent paid for using the property of
the state: the Ager Publicus

> The Portorium was the harbor tax collected on imports and exports.
>

As I said indirect taxes

> The Salinae was the fee collected from those engaged in salt
> production, Salt was a state monopoly, with the saltworks let out on
bid.
>

Idem use of state property

> The Metalla was levied on all mines.
>

Idem

> The Centesima was the 1% sales tax.
>

Instituted by Augustus, inderect taxes, was raised to 4% still under
the Julio-Claudians

> The Vicesima Manumissionis was a tax at the rate of 5% of the value of
> a slave, and had to be paid when a slave was manumitted.
>

Indirect taxes

> The Vicesima Hereditatium was a 5% inheritance tax. The reason that
> Caracalla extended the citizenship to all free men in the empire was
> this tax was only paid by Roman citizens, and he wanted to raise mor
> money.
>
> The Quinquagesima was a 2% sales tax levied on the sale of a slave.
>
> The Aes Uxorium was the tax levied on bachlors.
>

Instituted in 403BC by Camillus, nothing known about it in later times.

> The Ostiarium was a tax on doors.
>
> The Columnarium was a tax on columns.
>
> Roman citizens were excused from the Tributum after the Punic wars
> (execpt in times of emergancy) under the later Republic, however it
> was restored under the Empire, (at the discretion of the Princeps)
>

The tributum was levied on the conquisted cities the only Roman
citizens that paid it before 167BC were the ones which had double
citizenship: they paid it as citizens of their local, conquered city.
After 167BC they were exempted too. This tax (the major one) was
reinstituted by the Severes (perhaps the late Antonines). This was the
only "Poll tax" and this was the one I talked about.

Salve

Manius Villius Limitanus

> So Roman citizens did in fact pay many different taxes, and for most
> of them the total was more than $12.00 a year.
>

> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Helena Galeria Digest Number 1530
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:04:46 -0000

---
Salve Helena et Omnes: This is same format Prometheus'computer used
to sent messages to the list a few days ago, and the posts ended with
"take a look at the attachment".

This is, a virus, and please do not open any attachment you *may*
receive in this manner.

I shall be writing Helena privately also.

Bene vale,
Pompeia

In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:
> 'novaroma@--------' wrote:
> ====
> - There are 23 messages in this issue.
> -
> - Topics in this digest:
> -
> - 1. Re: Lead pipes and Calcium Deposits (was : Roman Psychos)
> - Fro--------e--------gan@--------
> - 2. Re: Lead pipes, and calcium deposits
> - From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
> - 3. Buy The Coins
> - From: Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
> - 4. Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile
approach)
> - ...'
>
>
> > Take a look to the attachment.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] TV commercial
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:31:33 -0400

Salve,

Yes, I have seen this commercial a few times. It is interesting how they
mixed the aspects of ancient Rome such as togas, and the old architecture
with aspects of the modern day such as cars, planes, and computers. Maybe
this is what the future will look like if things go our way. =)

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

Diana Meridia Aurelia at diana_h@-------- wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
> if this isn't known yet then it is now:
>
> http://ca.com/hellotomorrow/index.htm
>
> Valete,
> Diana Meridia Aurelia
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Personal Views on Tax
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:48:53 -0400

Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:

> I see two problems with your idea.
>
> The first is there has to be a minimum ammount. If someone decides to
> pay one dollar, the ammount collected isn't worth the effort it takes
> to collect the money, and the five dollars you mentioned would be
> right at the break even point. If we did this I would suggest that the
> twelve dollar tax that is being discussed be considered the minimum
> ammount that would be accepted.

Yes we could have a minimum. Although a doubt anyone would be writing $1.00
checks. I suggest $5.00 as a sensible minimum.

>
> The second problem is it makes it even harder for the Senate to plan
> ahead. With a set tax they at least have the option of estimating X
> dollars if 50% of the citizens pay, and Y dollars if only 40% pay.
> With a unset tax, they won't even be able to make an estimate and will
> have to put off any planning until after the tax is actually collected.

This should not be a issue. In the end you we will be getting more money. If
only 25% of the citizen pay $12.00 with the set tax, but with the unset tax
50% of the citizen pay there own chosen amount you will still come out
making more. Although nothing is stopping one from estimating. With the
minimum you could still figure out how much one is making by saying %50 of
citizen pay the minimum. From here you could get a general idea of how much
we are going to raise by the enthusiasm of the populace. After the first tax
it will be even easier to estimate for the fallowing years. This should not
present any problems.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

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Subject:	At the restaurant (was Re: [novaroma] Re: Government vs. people)
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:52:47 -0000

Salve Draco,

Glad to hear that you are doing okay. Sorry about the weather. Here
in Oregon, we have been faced with extremely hot (for us) weather,
it's been running steadily in the high 80's, low 90's, and no rain
for several weeks now. Hope you have a great vacation, and I know
what you mean about the papers. They always go over the same topics
here, too.

Bene Vale!

Gaia

>
> Well, this is somewhat off topic, but glad you ask. The weather is
somewhat
> "moody" here, due to the marime climate (we rarely have truly warm
summers
> here). Other than that, many people are going on vacation to warmer
places,
> including myself next week, and the newspapers continue to sell us
the same
> bad news ;).
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Viruses on the Lists
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:04:30 -0000

Salvete,

This morning I saw the second instance of one of our citizens'
computer being infected by a Virus, one of the many Outlook Viruses.

It's the I-WORM BADTRANS virus, which not only sends out mail, but
attempts to steal your passwords.

Information on this viruses can be found at
http://www.zdnet.com/zdhelp/stories/main/0,5594,2702089,00.html

This site claims to have a cure, however I warn you that I am NOT
familar with them, so caution is called for if you attempt to download
and use the file.
http://www.claymania.com/badtrans-removal.html

I Also recomend that if you are using Outlook or Outlook Express, that
you consider changing to another E-Mail client. It won't prevent you
from getting a virus, but it will insure that you don't spread it to
your friends, family, and fellow citizens.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: About the "embezzlement" issue
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:11:41 +0200

Salve Marce Cassi et alii,

(snipped)

> As far as I am aware, unfortunately, no money was ever refunded to
> Citizens. Certainly none was sent on to the Treasury. Apparently it
> went to Vado himself. I am rather amazed at this and would VERY much
> appreciate hearing about it if anyone has information to the
> contrary. Vado developed a huge dislike for anything to do with Nova
> Roma, but I had always considered him to be an honest man
> nonetheless. I cosider "embezzlement" to be out of charachter for
> him, and still don't quite believe that it happened as we think it
> must have.
>

I have been in contact with Vado, and he told me the following. He has not
been in contact with Bicurratus since April this year, and never received
any official request from Nova Roma, to the best of his belief. He said he
was also amazed at the fact that magistrates other than Quaestores or
Consules seem to be aware of the sum of money that's being dealt with
(since, he says, it is none of their business). According to his knowledge
the money is still on Bicurratus' account, and nothing happened to it since.

Valete bene,
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Absentia
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:21:52 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

Starting tomorrow, until July 25, I will be unavailable. During that period I will be in the north of my home province (the region of Batavia). For urgent matters regarding Gallia or Nova Roma in general, you can contact Tiberius Apollonius (consulromanus@--------), for matters regarding the Sodalitas Musarum, my contactperson would be Pompeia Cornelia (trog99@hotmail.com), and for things related to the Sodalitas Latinitatis, you may contact Domna Claudia (comptess@ihug.co.nz).

Valete bene,
S. Apollonius Draco

"Jeder f�r sich, und Gott gegen allen."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Another Virus
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:52:50 -0400

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

I don't run into this very often, thank goodness. But I thought I should
send this along. The attachment was sent to me this morning. Just goes to
show that we must all keep our virus scan programs running and up-to-date.
Valete, ... A. Cato

----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
To: "Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ROMANISROMANORVM] Greetings

> Salve Teleri: Thankyou for your message, but I am afraid that there is a
> problem with the attachment that you sent. When I tried to open it, Norton
> Antivirus gave me an Alert Warning that it is infected with the
> W32.Badtrans.13312@mm virus. This is a common virus that infects the ".EXE
> Files". Apparently, your computer was infected from some other source
> without your knowledge. Please run an up-to-date virus scan on your system
> to clear up any problem, and try your message again. I hope everything
goes
> alright for you.
> Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
> To: <a.cato@-------->
> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [ROMANISROMANORVM] Greetings
>
>
> 'a.cato@--------' wrote:
> ====
> -
> - Salvete Omnes: Please allow me to introduce myself. I am Appius
> - Tullius Marcellus Cato. (Forget the long name, I may be addressed as
> - Appius Tullius, or simply Cato.):) I was directed to this list in
> - quest of information on the late Republican - Early Empire toga.
> - Material has been obtained, a natural color wool, but I am not quite
> - sure as to the shape and size for that time period. I have read that
> - over the centuries there may have been as ma ...'
>
>
> > Take a look to the attachment.
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Renuntatio Propraetoricium V about the 100 Days Report of Provincia Thule
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:12:37 +0200

This document is created in Eudora and is best best viewed in that form. I
will also add it as a attachment to this document, to ensure that all can
read its format.

*************************************************
Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Renuntatio Propraetoricium V about the 100 Days Report of Provincia Thule
15 July 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Illustrus Consuls, Censors, Senators and Magistrates, Honorable Citizens of
Thule Provincia, and Honorable Citizens of Nova Roma;

I humbly ask You to take this "100 Day Report for Provincia Thule" under
consideration. This report reflects the activity undertaken by Propraetor
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus in association with his Cohors Propraetoris
(Provincial Staff), during the first 100 days (4th of April and 12th of
July) of the appointment of Propraetor Caeso Fabius Quintilianus as
Governor and Propraetor of Provinca Thule by the Senate of Nova Roma.

I will try to lead the Provincia by appointing active members of my Cohors
Propraetoris (Provincial Staff) and delegate tasks as much as possible to
them. Until now my Cohors Propraetoris has proven to be both loyal and able.

I have published a Edictum Propraetoricium VIII about the Approved (by
"Consilium Provinciale Thules" (The
Provincial Council of Thule)) Plan for Activities for the organisation of
Thule 2754 - 2756 at the 15th of April. At the present time I am just ready
to continue the work to fullfill its requirements.

Quote from the Plan: "Due to the size of this undertaking to organise
Thule, the plan will be phased in order to progress forward incrementally
during more than 2 and a half years. In this section the activities that
will be undertaken during this whole period of organisation will be shown.
These activities do not constitute all we will attempt, and any further
input from citizens is strongly encouraged."

The following headings are taken from this Plan.

Face-to-face formal and informal gatherings at the local level.
We have not had any Roman days as defined in Edictum Propraetoricium XIV.
But here at the Propraetorium (Savar) an uncountable number of informal
meetings and phone calls have been held. I have also had phone contact with
most of the Legates (living in other countries/Regiones) and a flow of
e-mail communication with them.

We will try to gather those who have an overall interest in Old Rome
As You may have understood the summer isn't the best time to organize
things in Thule. We will try to do this during the autumn.

What follows is a short list of the areas we are currently concentrating on

A. Web Site for Thule

A list of citizens in Thule:
This is done, but it has to be updated continuously.

Provincial Pages or sites for each of the four Regiones of Thule:
The Provincia site http://thule.novaroma.org/ was up after about two weeks.
The sites of Regio Finnica and Regio Suecica were up a few weeks later. The
site of Regio Norvegica and Regio Danica are still under construction. The
structure and contents of the Provincial and Regional websites are
regulated in the Edictum Propraetoricium XIII
about the Approved Proposal concerning "The structure of the Provincial and
the Regional websites in Provincia Thule". This document contains the
guidelines to make these websites a bit more homnogeneous.

Page for establishment of a new Re-enactment Legio:
We haven't yet started the initial work with the Legio. Starting this Legio
is one of the biggest projects that the Provincia will take upon it self.
The project will be started within two or three months. The Provincia will
lay the groundwork, but not actually "build" the Legio. I also plan to
contact the existing Legio in Regio Norvegica.

B. Recruitment
Our goals for actual numbers are to have 20 citizens for the entire
Provincia by the end of 2001:
In the Renuntatio Propraetoricium I about the state of the Provincia Thule
published 15th of April 2001. We could give an account of 12 citizens of
Nova Roma within Provincia Thule (Two of these were recruited by the newly
appointed Propraetor during the week before). Today we already have 21
citizens and have passed our goal for 2001 nearly six months too early.
This is very nice and we hope to continue to grow. Later in the autumn we
will set up new goals.

C. Finances
As we are starting the Provincia administration from scratch, all areas of
finance must be organised. We will start by making a budget for Jan.
2001-Jan. 2002, and submit it to the Senate as was requested of all the
Provinciae this last fall.

BUDGET for Jan. 2001-Jan. 2002

Here I present the budget approved by the Consilium Provincale Thules
during its First Plenum. I have also kept some of the commentaries, which I
hope will explain some details.

I am not trying to build a huge treasury, just to get a start. What shall
we use the surplus for? Maybe we can use it to sponsor our own Provincial
Conference in the Summer 2002?

If more than 50% of the Nova Roma citizens in Provincia Thule object by
sending me, the Propraetor and mail objecting to the whole of this Budget I
will withdraw it! As it isn't based on any obligatory costs for any
citizens, it is my hope that the Budget will pass this ordeal!
_________________________________________
BUDGET for Provincia Thule , AUC 2754 (2001)

All prices and amounts are approximate. I don't need the discussion to be
price and number chewing. But I want the numbers to be realistic. I propose
to buy for 100% and to sell for 200%, except when it comes to books and
flags, to not make them too expensive. The books are intended to be
Ospreys. I don't know how much the Eagle costs

I have based the cost of books on my own costs buying Osprey books (but I
haven't calculated with taxes (25%). If we get a tax upon my price we will
have to sell the books at a higher price! If anybody is going to England
this summer it would be a good idea to buy certain books (a few) to sell to
the advantage of the Provincial treasury (see further down).

I have planned to buy those books together with my friends in S�var, sell
them to ourselves or interested parties at "Roman Days" for instance and
give the surplus to the Provincial Treasure.

I think that this is the way we have to do things. Buy with our own money,
sell for a higher price and give the surplus to the provincial treasure,
this way we may build a certain amount of money in the treasury. I don't
dream of a rich treasury, yet anyway. ;-) I just want a start!

PURPOSE: Collecting some surplus, to maybe be used at the Thule Provincial
Conference, the Summer of 2002.

EXPENSES

Item

Roman Coins (price = 0,5$ per coin, 50 coins?) = 25$

Flags (price = 20$ per flag, 2 flags?) = 40$

Eagle (Newsletter) (price = 2$ per eagle., 5 eagles?) = 10$

Books (price = 30$ per book, 3 books?) = 90$

Total 165$

REVENUES

Item

Roman Coins (price = 1$ per coin, 50 coins?) = 50$

Flags (price = 30$ per flag, 2 flags?) = 60$

Eagle (Newsletter) (price = 3$ per eagle, 5 eagles?) = 15$

Books (price = 35$ per book, 2 books?) = 70$

Cash donations = 20$

In-kind donations (cookies?) = 10$

Total 225$

Total expenses 165$

Total revenues 225$

Current Treasury funds (previous years) 0$

Net surplus for year 2754 60$ (+1 book, 35$ per book)

Total available 60$ (+1 book, 35$ per book)

The main thing will be to aim (for the stars and reach the treetops?) for a
netsurplus for this year of 60$. How we achieve it isn't that interesting.

As this budget is based on holding a Roman day in or close to the
Propraetorium, we a totally dependent on getting a few (flags and coins)
things to sell. This has taken more time than we thought so this Roman day
(Romani Dies) will have to wait until we have got those things and some
books to sell.

____________________________________________

For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium (Provincial
Treasurer), until such time as a more suitable candidate can fill this
position.

These will be the long-term financial goals, which probably will start to
really developing after a Procurator Aerarium is appointed:
We than hope to hold fundraising events, and hope to be able to accept
tax-deductible donations. Then we will put together a proposal for Thule
that will be used to apply for any government cultural grants available,
and more importantly for Corporate grants. We also plan to, in the future,
hold various fundraising events such as Toga Parties where we hope to have
Gladiatorial combats as a draw. The fundraising is mainly for the payment
of taxes, projects, communications, and advertisement.

D. Infrastructure for Thule
The plan we have for the Infrastructure of Thule will be used in order to
make the administration fill out, and to facilitate the Provincia
operations:

The foundations for this were laid down in the rather comprehensive Edictum
Propraetoricium VII about the Approved Regula (Charter) for the
Administration of Thule. The Propraetor has during the first more than
three months published 17 Edicta (7 about appointments) and 5 Renuntationes
(including this one).

The "Consilium Provinciale Thules" has held its first Plenum (in a 13 days
session). It discussed 11 items and gave advice upon 7 items that resulted
in published Edicta (Plenum Order of the Consilium, Order of the Cohors
Propraetoris, Thule Provincia conference, Nova Roma Academia Thules, The
structure of the Provincial and the Regional websites in Provincia Thule,
Guidelines regarding the organization of "Roman Days" in Provincia Thule,
Appointment of a Procurator Nova Roma Academia Thules) and 2 published
Renuntationes (Budget of Thule Provincia 2754 and Conclusion of the First
Plenum of the Consilium). The three remaining items (The Limes Corporation,
The Legio and the Recruitment policy) will be dealt with within the next
half-year.

The Cohors Propraetoris (the staff of the Propraetor)
at this time consists of the following positions and members:

GAIUS RUBELLIUS RUFUS - Senior Legatus Thules, Legatus Regionis Norvegicae,
Triumvir Novae Romae Academiae in Thule
TITUS CURIUS DANNICUS - Legatus Regionis Danicae, Praefectus Sermonis Thules
CAIUS CURIUS SATURNINUS - Legatus Regionis Finnicae, Procurator Novae Romae
Academiae in Thule, Praeses et Triumvir Novae Romae Academiae in Thule
VIBIUS MINUCIUS FALCO - Prolegatus Regionis Suecicae, Procurator ad Res
Internas Thules
TITUS OCTAVIUS PIUS - Consilarius, Praeco Aranei Thules, Scriba Marce Octavi
MARCUS MINUCIUS AUDENS - Triumvir Novae Romae Academiae in Thule ("Outside"
Thule: Senator, Quaestor of Nova Roma, Praefectus Egressus, Praefectus
Militium, Senatorial Coordinator Responsorum and Proconsul of Nova
Britannia)
GNAEUS SALIX ASTUR - Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
EMILIA CURIA FINNICA - Scriba Araniae Academiae Thules

E. Spread of Nova Roman Culture
This will be something that we will take care of during the autumn and next
spring.

F. The Grand opening of the Provincia of Thule
We are planning to have our Grand opening in July 2001, but we intend to
phase our Provincia Plan, and phase one for all projects will hopefully be
completed by July 2001, which is when we plan to have a Grand Opening for
the Provincia of Thule.

The Grand Opening may due to practical circumstances be postponed until August.

Other issues, not in the plan

Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
(The Academia of Thule for Ancient and Nova Roman studies)

The Tresviri Academia Novae Romae in Thule (The board of the Academia) is
at the present moment holding its first Plena. There are a lot of issues to
solve and as it is summer time I think it will take a few weeks more to
conclude. The Academia is to be a Provincial (Thule) one and have no plans
to become the sole Academia in Nova Roma. Although it will be open to all
Novaromani. But the Academia is thus fully prepared to cooperate with other
Academiae and educational institutions within Nova Roma.

The Academia has a lot of issues to solve before it can start its work. In
the beginning the studies offered would be rather basic, but plans will be
laid out for the Academia to expand. An Academia website is being prepared
and will be published during the autumn.

There is already a nucleus of an Academia staff of competent and
enthusiastic persons appointed, which form a part of my Cohors
Propraetoris. I must say that I have high hopes for the future of the
Academia with these persons in charge.

Contacts with other Governors:
I have been active in the newly founded "ColloquimProvincia list". I have
found it to be a rewarding experience and it has given me a lot. I expect
this organization to continue to work and develop. We haven't yet decided
to join the "The Limes Corporation" though.

Preparations for a Provincial Annual Report:
This "100 Day Provincial Report" is my preparation at this point.

Development of a Provincial Brochure:
This is in the hands of the Procurator ad Res Internas Thules and will be
dealt with during the autumn.

Develop a Provincial Outreach Program in accordance with Sodalitas Egressus:
This is also in the hands of the Procurator ad Res Internas Thules and the
Legati.

Final Comment
By this I conclude this "100 Day Provincial Report". Until now I have had
at lot of administrative work to do. I still have to do more of this kind
of work during the autumn: preparation for a "Legio Edictum", at least two
more Plena in the "Consilium Provinciale Thules", following up of other
delegated issues and just plain general work. But it has been a thrilling
and rewarding work until today and I look forward to continue this work.
----------

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
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http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
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DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] Tributum
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:35:30 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

The very name of this tax reflects it's history. It was originaly a
Tribal tax. It later was imposed on conqured non-citizens, and this is
where the english word tribute comes from.

Livius mentions the collection of the tributum at the time of the
kings, and how Servius Tullius handled it (1.43). The rational behind
the greater electoral powers of the higher classes was that since they
contributed more to the state in the form of military service and
Tributum, they should have a greater say in the affairs of the state.

The Tributum was levied according the assets recorded in the Census.
The Romans did NOT hold a Census just because they wanted to know how
many citizens they had, they held them to determine how much these
citizens owed in taxes, as reflected in the Christian Bible "So all
the world could be taxed" and they held Censuses of Roman Citizens
from the earliest days. The term Capti Censi, Headcount, refers to the
reduced paperwork on the part of the Censors. The poorest citizens had
no taxable properity for the Censors to record, so they just counted
the number of heads and recorded this rather than the detailed
listings of taxable assets that the citizens of the five classes had.

The Tributum was a properity tax, and the rate varried according to
the needs of the state, but was normally set at one thousandth of a
citizens assets as listed in the Census. This is why properity taxes
are still expressed in mils. (At least in the USA). The Tributum was
levied on the value of the properity in question, and any debts owed
on that properity were NOT subtracted. So if your house is valued at
$100,000.00 a one mil tax means that you owe $100.00 in taxes, even if
you still owe $75,000.00 on your house. The same holds true for your
car. If it's value is $12,000.00 you owe $12.00 in taxes at a 1 mil
rate. I mention houses and cars because these are the assets that
modern governments place properity taxes on, and are also the assets
that Roma would have placed the Tributum on if she was still a nation.

The Tributum was collected from Roman citizens until 606 AUC, when it
was suspended. This is because the Tributum comming in from subjects
covered the needs of the state. It was reinstuted in 710 AUC and was
collected from this time onward at the whim of the State.

Roman Citizens did in fact pay the Tributum for most of the history of
the Roman state, excepting a 104 year period in the late Republic. So
it is inaccurate to say that Romans "never" payed this tax. (In
addition to many other direct and indirect taxes)

We lack the resources to attempt to institute a historic tributum,
which would require citizens to register assests with the Censors for
the purpose of determning the Tributum owed. (Not to mention how
undesirable this intrusion into private affairs would be). If we did
try to use this model the rate would have to be higher to cover the
increased costs involved. So it's much easier to have a Poll tax, that
is a single rate that is paid by all citizens.

Making the Tributum a Poll tax is also the fairest way to implement
this tax. As long as all of our citizens recieve the same benifits
from Nova Roma, then it's only fair that all citizens pay the same
tax. To those who will try to bring up the modern notion of a
graduated tax as being "fair", I reply in advance, it is one of the
most unfair ideas of taxiation ever concieved. To make two citizens
pay different rates for the same services simply because one of them
has more money ammounts to following the advice of 19th century
showman P T Barnum, "Take the suckers for all they're worth". For
economic reasons it may be nesscary at times to have graduated rates,
but don't lie about them claiming they are "fair".

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] type of historical Taxes
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:04:51 EDT

In a message dated 7/14/2001 11:26:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:

> The Centesima was the 1% sales tax.
>
>

Salvete,
This was up to 5% by the reign of Caracalla according to Dio Cassius. My
point being that this fluctuated. I believe what Villius is referring to is
the tax forgiveness period that the city of Roma received after the Second
Punic war. There was two reasons for this. First the Patricians were almost
destitute after supporting the war, second Carthage indemnity and the
plundering of Helles, Makedonia, and Asia Minor, more then made up the
shortfall for the Republic. Alas citizens we cannot do the same. Plundering
nations are out, and there is no money in plundering micro nations,
especially internet ones.

Valete

Q Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:03:57 +1200

Salve Quirites

Comments below...

> Salve Omnes:
>
> I would like to say that I support both of my gens members, Domna
Claudia
> Auspicata and Amulius Claudius Petrus.
>
> I am also concerned that Domna's e-mail were ignored. Some kind of
response
> would have been appropriate even if it were not a positive one.
>
> Appia Claudia Indagatrix
> Materfamilias Gens Claudia
> Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis)
>
> Domna Claudia Auspicata wrote:
> >>
> >> I am concerned with the hastiness with which a formal amount of tax
> >> will be set following the passing of the Lex Vedia de Assidui et
> >> Capiti Censi. No amount of research that I know of has gone into the
> >> arbitrary figure of US$12. This does not seem to me the cleverest,
> >> professional way of setting a tax that will directly affect citizens
> >> and Nova Roma. Well over a month ago I emailed both Consuls
> >> regarding the idea of a survey that would allow the Senate to be
> >> well-informed as to what citizens w/could pay. With good use of this
> >> information a reasonable tax amount could be set and an accurate
> >> forecast of income could be made among other things. I have not had
> >> a reply to this email.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Salve,

I did in fact respond in part to Domna Claudia's post, in a seprate
post where I pointed out that the Proposed Consulta on taxes was not
hasty, but rather something that the Senate has been talking about for
years.

DOMNA REPLY: er...I believe my Mater was referring to the emails I sent both Consuls over a month ago.

L. Sicinius Drusus: As to her idea of gathering more information. If we are going to have
taxes next year we need to prepare for it now. There is no reason that
the Senate can't look at the Tax rate next year and set a different
rate for 2756.

Holding a Census next year would give the Senate better information to
base the Tax rate on, but waiting for the Census would result in ZERO
income from taxes for 2755.

DOMNA REPLY: As I have said before a small survey needn't take more that a month and could easily have been completed by now.

<snippa>

No matter how many polls and Census questions we ask, some
expermentation will be needed to detrmine the optimum point on the
Lafer Curve for our taxes. The Lafer Curve shows that as the Rate
increases you reach a point where non-compliance results in less money
collected than you would get with a lower rate and a higher level of
compliance, ie, you have more money if 500 citizens pay $12.00, than
you have if 200 citizens pay $25.00.

DOMNA REPLY: Yes, the year in which taxes are collected will show the end result. A survey before this fact would have allowed an opportunity to achieve a better result initially, ie. we would have a Lafer curve before the tax was collected.

L. Sicinius Drusus: As to Amulius Claudius's proposal of an unset tax.

A certain ammount of effort will be needed to collect the tax. Below a
certain point the effort and cost of collecting the tax excedes the
value collected. If a citizen claims that they only want to pay $1.00
in taxes collecting it isn't worth the cost. To avoid this problem
there has to be a minimum ammount set, and nothing lower than this
ammount will be accepted.

The current proposal of $12.00 is very low, and could be considered as
the minnimum tax, and we could allow our more civic minded citizens to
pay a higher tax if they so desire. This would result in the Senate
having a low figure based on the minimum rate that they could make
long term plans on, and the higher revenues form the actual collection
of the voulantarly paid extra ammounts when they finalize the budget.

REPLY DOMNA: The unset tax idea has many merits esp. as it could greatly reduce those citizens who w/could not pay. A budget would be more difficult however a small survey beforehand could solve this problem ;-).

In reply to others who believe this is just some sort of 'delay' tactic resulting in more needless discussion and inaction. Hardly. I have already said I support the tax lex and welcome income into Nova Roma. I am quite happy to help with any information gathering needed and this could have been completed a month ago...now that is what I call inaction.

Vale bene
Domna Claudia Auspicata

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes (Was: Re: Taxes, a mercantile approach)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:44:10 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, consul Cassi.

--- Marcus Cassius Julianus <cassius622@--------> wrote:

<<previous message snipped>>

> Cassius respondit:
> My apologies for thinking you were against the very concept of
> taxation. Your "arguing the other side" of the issue was thorough
> enough to warrant a detailed response... I meant no offense and I
> hope none is taken.

I accept your apologies. I think we all should take more time to read
the posts we are replying to, to make sure we are not misunderstanding
their intent ;-).

> You are quite right that more focus should be made on the benefits of
> taxation. This *will* happen. There will be detailed information
> various uses for tax money, benefits to be derived from Nova Roma
> having an adequate treasury, and all the rest.

That was what I was calling for.

> However, the physical foundations for taxation must be laid before
> all the "sizzle" can be put on the "steak". Another funding "trap"
> we've fallen into is cycles of continuous delay. It's *so* easy to
> keep putting the mechanics of the issue off forever, so that funding
> for Nova Roma never becomes a reality.
>
> "Let's do a study first!" "Let's do a Poll!" Let's do *several*
> polls!" Let's figure out *exactly* what to do with every dollar
> first!" "Let's figure out every potential problem first!" "Let's
> consider the folks who might not want to pay taxes!" "Let's figure
> out how to deal with every single individual who might not be able to
> pay!"
>
> In short... let's do anything, *everything* to delay getting the
> physical process of taxation started. Let's talk the issue to death
> and get it so confused that taxes never become a reality.
>
> I am NOT accusing you of being "for" any of this, Salix Astur, but
> seeing a neverending flow of it on the list is getting me upset.
>
> I'm tired of folks who don't think enough of Nova Roma to figure its
> worth paying a few dollars a year for. I've put my money where my
> mouth is. Where did we get flags from? Me. My pockets. First I spent
> $250 of my own money for flags. Seeing they were successful, I then
> spent $525 of my own money for more flags. Where did we get coins
> from? Me. My pockets. I just went into debt to the tune of a little
> over $1,800.00 US getting Nova Roma coinage.
>
> My pockets aren't that deep. I'm not rich. I just care about Nova
> Roma enough to put my money where my mouth is. Can you even imagine
> my feelings at seeing someone all upset because they don't want to
> pay $12.00 a year? My heart bleeds for them. Really. Hell, why
> should they want to pay? I, and a couple others will no doubt
> continue to put ourselves in debt for them so they can enjoy being
> Romans for free.

And I deeply thank you for your efforts. I agree with you in that a few
can not be expected to handle the financial burden of Nova Roma; this
is one of the strongest points in favour of taxation, in my opinion.

> I'm particularly amused by the recent postings that the Senate
> is "not considering the will of the people" in the taxation issue.
> The majority of Citizens have been hoping to see Nova Roma get some
> real funding for years now... several people have quit their
> Citizenship because NR can't get it's financial act together.
>
> The solution is simple. If you don't want to pay, *don't*. Smaller
> Comitia means more dedicated Comitia as far as I can see. The folks
> who don't want to invest in Nova Roma's future can still get a free
> ride. I firmly believe they'll be proven wrong in the long run, and
> that Nova Roma will be renewed by gaining some "real world" ability
> to grow and build.

I agree with you, safe that I am not happy with the prospect of very
limited comitia. I think that part of the attractive of Nova Roma is
that all citizens can take a part in its building; a comitia that
represents a very limited part of our citizenry does not support this
idea. Nonetheless, I think that the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti
Censi is a good idea; but we must try to convince as many citizens as
possible to join the assidui. That is all.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: About the "embezzlement" issue
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:33:47 -0700

Ave,

Read the Britannia list. There was a post from Biccuratus that is where
we all learned of the embezzlement issue prior too the Consuls being
kicked off the list and myself being kicked off the list. So someone is
not being truthful and since Biccuratus made the post on that...it will
be interesting to see. And I do know that there have been attempts at
contact.

Sulla

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
>
> Salve Marce Cassi et alii,
>
> (snipped)
>
> > As far as I am aware, unfortunately, no money was ever refunded to
> > Citizens. Certainly none was sent on to the Treasury. Apparently it
> > went to Vado himself. I am rather amazed at this and would VERY much
> > appreciate hearing about it if anyone has information to the
> > contrary. Vado developed a huge dislike for anything to do with Nova
> > Roma, but I had always considered him to be an honest man
> > nonetheless. I cosider "embezzlement" to be out of charachter for
> > him, and still don't quite believe that it happened as we think it
> > must have.
> >
>
> I have been in contact with Vado, and he told me the following. He has
> not
> been in contact with Bicurratus since April this year, and never
> received
> any official request from Nova Roma, to the best of his belief. He
> said he
> was also amazed at the fact that magistrates other than Quaestores or
> Consules seem to be aware of the sum of money that's being dealt with
> (since, he says, it is none of their business). According to his
> knowledge
> the money is still on Bicurratus' account, and nothing happened to it
> since.
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] type of historical Taxes
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:34:02 EDT

In a message dated 7/14/2001 11:26:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:

> The Centesima was the 1% sales tax.
>
>

Salvete,

This was up to 5% by the reign of Caracalla according to Dio Cassius. My
point being that
> this fluctuated. You forgot the laterina tax (2 cents) every time you
> wanted to use the public toilets. I believe what Villius is referring to
> is the tax forgiveness period that the city of Roma received after the
> Second Punic war. There was two reasons for this. First the Patricians
> were almost destitute after supporting the war, second Carthage indemnity
> and the plundering of Helles, Makedonia, and Asia Minor, more then made up
> the shortfall for the Republic. Alas citizens we cannot do the same.
> Plundering nations are out, and there is no money in plundering micro
> nations, especially internet ones.
>
> Valete
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:38:52 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@i...> wrote:

SNIP
>
> REPLY DOMNA: The unset tax idea has many merits esp. as it could
greatly reduce those citizens who w/could not pay. A budget would be
more difficult however a small survey beforehand could solve this
problem ;-).
>

Salvete Domna Claudia et Omnes,

Regarding the Citizens who "w/could not pay". For those who can pay a
fair and very low tax, but refuse to do so, They can take thier place
in the head count or resign thier citizenship as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure that these citizens won't be so hesitant to accept any
benifits that are derived from the taxes that others pay. These people
are nothing but freeloaders, and thier resignation will be no great
loss to our Res Publica.

As to those who can't pay, there are a great many things that I would
like to have, but lack the money. I want a 1969 Corvette Stingray with
the ZL1 engine. Only two of these were produced. The low numbers make
it impossible to do more than estimate thier value, but it is in the
million dollar range. Nova Roma Citizenship is like that Corvette,
it's something that some may want but can't afford. In that case I'm
afraid they will have to do the same as I'm doing with the ZL1
Corvette. WITHOUT. Just because you want something does NOT mean that
you are entittled to it. Yet we are being more than fair with those
who can't pay the Tributum. We are allowing them to remain citizens.
We are only saying that thier voice in Nova Roma's affairs will not be
as great as those who actually are paying the Bills.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:28:58 -0400

Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:

> Salvete Domna Claudia et Omnes,
>
> Regarding the Citizens who "w/could not pay". For those who can pay a
> fair and very low tax, but refuse to do so, They can take thier place
> in the head count or resign thier citizenship as far as I'm concerned.
> I'm sure that these citizens won't be so hesitant to accept any
> benifits that are derived from the taxes that others pay. These people
> are nothing but freeloaders, and thier resignation will be no great
> loss to our Res Publica.
>
> As to those who can't pay, there are a great many things that I would
> like to have, but lack the money. I want a 1969 Corvette Stingray with
> the ZL1 engine. Only two of these were produced. The low numbers make
> it impossible to do more than estimate thier value, but it is in the
> million dollar range. Nova Roma Citizenship is like that Corvette,
> it's something that some may want but can't afford. In that case I'm
> afraid they will have to do the same as I'm doing with the ZL1
> Corvette. WITHOUT. Just because you want something does NOT mean that
> you are entittled to it. Yet we are being more than fair with those
> who can't pay the Tributum. We are allowing them to remain citizens.
> We are only saying that thier voice in Nova Roma's affairs will not be
> as great as those who actually are paying the Bills.

Salve,

Lucius, we should try to make a tax that works for every citizen because we
will make more money! The unset tax will still raise more money in the long
run even with a minimum of $5.00. Here is a updated version of my unset tax
idea that will make the proposal even more efficient.

We can establish a $5.00 minimum. Although this is the sheer "minimum" and
more is expected from the average citizen. The expected $12.00 payment could
be rewarded with century points.

This will allow citizens who wish to support our nation but do not care much
for getting evolved politically a tax that is reasonable for them, the $5.00
tax. Some of these citizens will probably not pay the proposed $12.00 tax
but a $5.00 tax would seem reasonable to them. Therefore we are going to
receive more payments for less active citizens and make more.

Then we have the active citizens, like the majority of those who take part
in this list. These citizens would benefit from the extra century points.
They would pay the $12.00 rate.

By taking this road we are maximising the amount of money we shall raise. We
will not only receive tax from 25% of citizens as the current proposal
states but maybe closer to 50%. Half would be $5.00 payments the other
$12.00 payments. Simple and more productive.

Donec infra,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

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Subject:	[novaroma] Ignore, Just a Test
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:55:11 -0400

Simply a Test

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Jul 2001 23:50:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@b...> wrote:
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:
>
>
> > Salvete Domna Claudia et Omnes,
> >
> > Regarding the Citizens who "w/could not pay". For those who can pay a
> > fair and very low tax, but refuse to do so, They can take thier place
> > in the head count or resign thier citizenship as far as I'm concerned.
> > I'm sure that these citizens won't be so hesitant to accept any
> > benifits that are derived from the taxes that others pay. These people
> > are nothing but freeloaders, and thier resignation will be no great
> > loss to our Res Publica.
> >
> > As to those who can't pay, there are a great many things that I would
> > like to have, but lack the money. I want a 1969 Corvette Stingray with
> > the ZL1 engine. Only two of these were produced. The low numbers make
> > it impossible to do more than estimate thier value, but it is in the
> > million dollar range. Nova Roma Citizenship is like that Corvette,
> > it's something that some may want but can't afford. In that case I'm
> > afraid they will have to do the same as I'm doing with the ZL1
> > Corvette. WITHOUT. Just because you want something does NOT mean that
> > you are entittled to it. Yet we are being more than fair with those
> > who can't pay the Tributum. We are allowing them to remain citizens.
> > We are only saying that thier voice in Nova Roma's affairs will not be
> > as great as those who actually are paying the Bills.
>
> Salve,
>
> Lucius, we should try to make a tax that works for every citizen
because we
> will make more money! The unset tax will still raise more money in
the long
> run even with a minimum of $5.00. Here is a updated version of my
unset tax
> idea that will make the proposal even more efficient.

DRUSUS: $5.00 is at or below the break even point for the ammount of
effort involved. Records have to be kept that a citizen paid his/her
tax. The Data bases for the Centuries and the tribes have to be
updated. Records have to be kept of how much each Provincia paid. When
some checks bounce (This will happen) everything has to be done over.
That's a lot of effort expended over $5.00. We want to come out ahead
on this, not just break even so the Minimum tax has to be at least
$10.00, and better yet the $12.00 that is being discussed.

Look at our current system of donations only as an unset tax with a
zero dollar minimum payment. The vast majority of our citizens are
paying that zero dollar minnimum. If we raise the minimum to $5.00,
the vast majority who pay thier taxes will opt for the least ammount
they can pay, so we will see a lot of $5.00 payments and few larger
ones. That's just basic human nature. you can try a reward system, but
I fear that only our most active citizens will be intrested in
additional Century points if they have to pay for them.

I Also hope that most of our citizens aren't too commited to the idea
that half of the allmost 1000 citizens will pay thier taxes. Based on
the numbers who vote, the number of subscribers to the mainlist, and
allowing for some who are avoid this list because of the ammount of
politics, we may have around 500 to 600 citizens who are active in
some area of Nova Roma. All of these won't pay, and I'll be surprised
if we have as many as 400 taxpayers. Of this 400 about 3/4 will opt
for the least ammount they can pay, be it $5.00 or $12.00. The
remainder will not make up the loss in revenue if the minimum is set
at $5.00. They would have to pay three times the $7.00 difference, or
$21.00 in addition to the $12.00 or $33.00 on average.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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