| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Questions |
| From: |
"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:17:23 -0400 |
|
Salve,
>>Should English be the only language at this list?>>
It isn't the only language on this List. All members are free to post in as
many languages as they wish, so long as an Engish translation is *included*.
>>Is there some other list for portuguese/brazilian citizens?>>
I do not know. If there is not, you may do well to start one.
>>Is there a problem with being novaroma citizen and another micronation at
the same time?>>
Not that *I* am aware of.
Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis
Laetius
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: type of historical Taxes |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 00:29:36 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/14/2001 11:26:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
>
> > The Centesima was the 1% sales tax.
> >
> >
>
> Salvete,
>
>
> This was up to 5% by the reign of Caracalla according to Dio
Cassius. My
> point being that
> > this fluctuated. You forgot the laterina tax (2 cents) every time
you
> > wanted to use the public toilets. I believe what Villius is
referring to
> > is the tax forgiveness period that the city of Roma received after
the
> > Second Punic war. There was two reasons for this. First the
Patricians
> > were almost destitute after supporting the war, second Carthage
indemnity
> > and the plundering of Helles, Makedonia, and Asia Minor, more then
made up
> > the shortfall for the Republic. Alas citizens we cannot do the
same.
> > Plundering nations are out, and there is no money in plundering
micro
> > nations, especially internet ones.
> >
> > Valete
> >
Salvete Qunti Fabi et Omnes
Yes you are correct that the ammount of the Centesima varried, as did
the ammounts of many other taxes. The 1% is no more than the ammount
the tax was originally set at.
My point was that Roman Citizens were liable for many different taxes
and fees, and the whole burden of taxes was NOT on the subject peoples
of the Late Republic and Imperial periods. In addition to the laterina
tax, I'm sure that there were other taxes or fees that I forgot to
mention, in addition to some that we don't know about because they
were not mentioned in the surviving texts.
Since some would like to shift the burden of supporting Nova Roma to
non citizens, I would like to hear an actual plan for raising this
money instead of a general statement about getting money from non
citizens. Let's hear the details so we can judge the idea.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Digest Number 1531 |
| From: |
"Navarra Reid" <optabilis@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:39:04 -0600 |
|
Salvete Domna et alii:
Thanks so much for clearing this up for LSD and others, Domna. I
momentarily thought of correcting him, but what's the use of even trying,
hm?
I did in fact respond in part to Domna Claudia's post, in a seprate
post where I pointed out that the Proposed Consulta on taxes was not
hasty, but rather something that the Senate has been talking about for
years.
DOMNA REPLY: er...I believe my Mater was referring to the emails I sent
both Consuls over a month ago.
In reply to others who believe this is just some sort of 'delay' tactic
resulting in more needless discussion and inaction. Hardly. I have already
said I support the tax lex and welcome income into Nova Roma. I am quite
happy to help with any information gathering needed and this could have been
completed a month ago...now that is what I call inaction.
ex concesso
Vale,
Appia Claudia I.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:20:22 -0400 |
|
Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:
Salve,
>
> DRUSUS: $5.00 is at or below the break even point for the ammount of
> effort involved. Records have to be kept that a citizen paid his/her
> tax. The Data bases for the Centuries and the tribes have to be
> updated. Records have to be kept of how much each Provincia paid. When
> some checks bounce (This will happen) everything has to be done over.
> That's a lot of effort expended over $5.00. We want to come out ahead
> on this, not just break even so the Minimum tax has to be at least
> $10.00, and better yet the $12.00 that is being discussed.
That is debatable, I think it is the total amount raised in the end that we
should look at. If many payments are made because of the fact that we only
ask for $5.00 then it will add up. If you think on a larger scale it could
be worth it. Even so this minimum is hardly written in stone.
> Look at our current system of donations only as an unset tax with a
> zero dollar minimum payment. The vast majority of our citizens are
> paying that zero dollar minnimum. If we raise the minimum to $5.00,
> the vast majority who pay thier taxes will opt for the least ammount
> they can pay, so we will see a lot of $5.00 payments and few larger
> ones. That's just basic human nature. you can try a reward system, but
> I fear that only our most active citizens will be intrested in
> additional Century points if they have to pay for them.
This is correct and is the whole point. Many inactive citizens will pay $0
if the rate is $12.00. $5.00 is such a small amount that even a citizen that
is not very active may pay. The active citizens are the only people who will
pay a tax that is *set* at $12.00 and will be the only ones that pay an
*unset* tax at $12.00. The only difference is to combat the natural human
instinct to pay less they will receive century points in return for choosing
the higher rate of $12.00.
>
> I Also hope that most of our citizens aren't too committed to the idea
> that half of the almost 1000 citizens will pay thier taxes. Based on
> the numbers who vote, the number of subscribers to the mainlist, and
> allowing for some who are avoid this list because of the ammount of
> politics, we may have around 500 to 600 citizens who are active in
> some area of Nova Roma. All of these won't pay, and I'll be surprised
> if we have as many as 400 taxpayers. Of this 400 about 3/4 will opt
> for the least ammount they can pay, be it $5.00 or $12.00. The
> remainder will not make up the loss in revenue if the minimum is set
> at $5.00. They would have to pay three times the $7.00 difference, or
> $21.00 in addition to the $12.00 or $33.00 on average.
My numbers my be wrong but the fact stays the same. With my proposal you
will receive more payments and thus more money.
Donec infra,
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ignore, Just a Test |
| From: |
"A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:55:11 -0400 |
|
Simply a Test
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:15:37 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@b...> wrote:
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> >
> > DRUSUS: $5.00 is at or below the break even point for the ammount of
> > effort involved. Records have to be kept that a citizen paid his/her
> > tax. The Data bases for the Centuries and the tribes have to be
> > updated. Records have to be kept of how much each Provincia paid. When
> > some checks bounce (This will happen) everything has to be done over.
> > That's a lot of effort expended over $5.00. We want to come out ahead
> > on this, not just break even so the Minimum tax has to be at least
> > $10.00, and better yet the $12.00 that is being discussed.
>
> That is debatable, I think it is the total amount raised in the end
that we
> should look at. If many payments are made because of the fact that
we only
> ask for $5.00 then it will add up. If you think on a larger scale it
could
> be worth it. Even so this minimum is hardly written in stone.
>
> > Look at our current system of donations only as an unset tax with a
> > zero dollar minimum payment. The vast majority of our citizens are
> > paying that zero dollar minnimum. If we raise the minimum to $5.00,
> > the vast majority who pay thier taxes will opt for the least ammount
> > they can pay, so we will see a lot of $5.00 payments and few larger
> > ones. That's just basic human nature. you can try a reward system, but
> > I fear that only our most active citizens will be intrested in
> > additional Century points if they have to pay for them.
>
> This is correct and is the whole point. Many inactive citizens will
pay $0
> if the rate is $12.00. $5.00 is such a small amount that even a
citizen that
> is not very active may pay. The active citizens are the only people
who will
> pay a tax that is *set* at $12.00 and will be the only ones that pay an
> *unset* tax at $12.00. The only difference is to combat the natural
human
> instinct to pay less they will receive century points in return for
choosing
> the higher rate of $12.00.
>
> >
> > I Also hope that most of our citizens aren't too committed to the idea
> > that half of the almost 1000 citizens will pay thier taxes. Based on
> > the numbers who vote, the number of subscribers to the mainlist, and
> > allowing for some who are avoid this list because of the ammount of
> > politics, we may have around 500 to 600 citizens who are active in
> > some area of Nova Roma. All of these won't pay, and I'll be surprised
> > if we have as many as 400 taxpayers. Of this 400 about 3/4 will opt
> > for the least ammount they can pay, be it $5.00 or $12.00. The
> > remainder will not make up the loss in revenue if the minimum is set
> > at $5.00. They would have to pay three times the $7.00 difference, or
> > $21.00 in addition to the $12.00 or $33.00 on average.
>
> My numbers my be wrong but the fact stays the same. With my proposal you
> will receive more payments and thus more money.
The $12.00 proposal is allready so low that the idea of saving a few
dollars is unlikely to attract many more tax payers. I will be wildly
optimistic and say maybe 20. That's an extra $100.00. At least 10
times that many people will opt to pay the lower figure of $5.00
rather than $12.00. That's $7.00 less a person times 200 people or
$1,400.00. Subtract the $100.00 gain and you have a net loss of
$1,300.00. If my guess of 400 taxpayers is accurate, that leaves about
200 to make up this shortfall. about half of them pay the original
$12.00. That is zero gain on the shortfall. The remaining 100 would
have to make up the $1,300.00 or average $25.00 each. since many of
the remaining 100 will pay less than the $25.00, the remainder will
have to shell out more than this ammount just to overcome the
$1,300.00 shortage. This puts us right back to where we started, a few
people carrying most of the finical burden.
These figures are very optimistic. Chances are the actual figures will
be far worse. Earlier this year when we were discussing taxes, I made
a voulantary contribution as a token of my willingness to pay the
taxes, and issused a challenge on this list for others to show thier
support for taxes by making a donation. Out of allmost 400 people
subscribed to this list at the time about 4 responded to that
challenge. Less than 1%. I see no reason to beleave that things have
changed so much in the last few months that we will have a large
number of citizens willing to pay more than the minimum ammount the
taxes are set at.
If we did try your plan, and found that 400 citizens payed an average
of only $7.00 each, are you willing to make up the $2,000.00 loss?
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ignore, Just a Test |
| From: |
"A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:55:11 -0400 |
|
Simply a Test
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Tax Concerns |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 00:14:32 -0400 |
|
Salve,
Lucius, your numbers are all based on unsolid facts you devised. Right or
wrong they are factious without Domna's original suggestion of a poll.
Please remember that this idea when presented declared that the proposal
must go hand in hand with a polling of the citizens. Until this polling
takes place you are merely guessing at figures. I could write out a bunch of
numbers with a out come of my proposal comming out ahead and say they are
correct. But when it comes down to it they are no more correct then yours or
any others without polling citizens, both the very active and less active. I
would no more be prepared to cover your so called $2000.00 loss then you
would be in covering a loss over any of mine. It seems pure foolishness to
start declaring numbers when we have no idea of how many citizens still
consider themselves "citizens". A great estimate like that really cannot be
used to convince one of an idea, no statistics are based on fact. Keep this
in mind...
Lucius, it is simple to see that citizens will not make a donation based on
some challenge of another citizen to show support for tax. Although the
recently passed laws places this in a whole new realm. I am sure if you had
the power to declare your challenge under the recently passed law on tax
that you would see a massive increase in support on donations.
Remember this whole tax proposal is something that we need to experiment
with. Keep an open mind citizen. I can guarantee we will not get it prefect
on the first shot. The trick is not making it a costly mistake. I never said
this should be a permanent way to tax the nation. But at this time in our
history it seems reasonable to make this tax seem more like a donation,
because it is in many ways.
Vale,
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> The $12.00 proposal is allready so low that the idea of saving a few
> dollars is unlikely to attract many more tax payers. I will be wildly
> optimistic and say maybe 20. That's an extra $100.00. At least 10
> times that many people will opt to pay the lower figure of $5.00
> rather than $12.00. That's $7.00 less a person times 200 people or
> $1,400.00. Subtract the $100.00 gain and you have a net loss of
> $1,300.00. If my guess of 400 taxpayers is accurate, that leaves about
> 200 to make up this shortfall. about half of them pay the original
> $12.00. That is zero gain on the shortfall. The remaining 100 would
> have to make up the $1,300.00 or average $25.00 each. since many of
> the remaining 100 will pay less than the $25.00, the remainder will
> have to shell out more than this ammount just to overcome the
> $1,300.00 shortage. This puts us right back to where we started, a few
> people carrying most of the finical burden.
>
> These figures are very optimistic. Chances are the actual figures will
> be far worse. Earlier this year when we were discussing taxes, I made
> a voulantary contribution as a token of my willingness to pay the
> taxes, and issused a challenge on this list for others to show thier
> support for taxes by making a donation. Out of allmost 400 people
> subscribed to this list at the time about 4 responded to that
> challenge. Less than 1%. I see no reason to beleave that things have
> changed so much in the last few months that we will have a large
> number of citizens willing to pay more than the minimum ammount the
> taxes are set at.
>
> If we did try your plan, and found that 400 citizens payed an average
> of only $7.00 each, are you willing to make up the $2,000.00 loss?
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Main List Content; |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 00:51:27 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Nova Roma Citizens;
Those citizens who have contacted me and asked me to take some action
about the percieved political clutter, repetitive rehashings and
argumentative postings on the Main List, will have seen in recent weeks
the responses from the other members of the Main List in opposition to
my requests for consideration of such. In short, the vocal minority
likes the present situation!!!
You will also see that many of those who have objected to my requests,
have done so in both unneccessarly harsh and insulting ways directed
both at the requests, which you have made of me, and to the List
Moderators through the opposition's ignorance and hatefullness, as well
as thier love of the sound of thier own overwhelmingl volume of words,
as opposed to others more moderate in thier needs / desires.
I now take this opportunity to apologize to the List Moderators, most
sincerely, for my requests of you. Had I realized at the time of my
request, that the hatefullness on this list had very nearly reached the
"tide line" of the "Back Ally" in the activities / comments of some, I
should have undertaken to place the questions before the Citizens
personnally, so as to relieve you very dear ladies of the unwelcome
responses recieved. I am most devastated that two ladies of the first
class, such as Mistresses Vedia and Strabo should have been subjected to
such harsh, unfeeling and unsympathetic comments from a very small
cross-section of this Main List. A croos-section who, were it not for
the very mild moderation imposed in NR, would in short order create the
equivelent of the filth and unlimited commets and accusations of the
"Back Alley List."
You, my friends -- who have asked me to take action --, and I have been
invited to leave the list or to simply "hit the delete key", two answers
which in the past have not gone down well in other venues, when such
responses were directed at those who now direct them at us. However, it
is not my intent to "crab" unneccessarily about the desires of the
"vocal minority" who choke our Main List with thier everlasting
argument, clack, and innuendo. Many have already complained about such
and after being ignored, have left the list, dispairing of finding the
very thing that we all came to this place for. The ProPraetors in
attempting to contact those citizens in their Provinciae cannot account
for the unwillingness for former citizens to respond. I suspect
strongly that the disappointments of the Main List has a great deal to
do with that and other problems in NR in regard to reawakening an
interest in the micronation from older citizens who have "drifted away."
However, as our "macro-posters" have indicated, in many diferent ways
and attitudes, there are always more citizens to be found, so those who
have left can be spared!! However, that problem will be undertaken by
the Senior Magistrates of NR when it is realized that such has rached
the point where something must be done about it.
Personnaly, after over three years I have heard about all that these
"multi-posting citizens" have to say. I was not impressed at the
beginning and am much less so now. The Main List will be what you allow
it to be, and since my outspoken objections to what it has become fall
upon deaf or unwilling ears, I have no more time to devote to such. I
will no longer devote myself to reading the Main List Mail message by
message because I no longer have the time to do so. I will do my best
for any Citizen who requests it, as I have always tried to do, but I
would ask that you will contact me personnally, or through the Senate,
Provincia or the Militarium Staffs.
I have all the time in the world to help those who have questions about
NR---However, I no longer have any time at all to listen to the constant
argument of children, the consistant and repetitive comments of those
who must be part and parcel of every single question and discussion
point on the Main List, or those who have no education in the usage of
polite and reasonable language.
I am sorry that my last efforts have not been more successful or more
amenable to common courtesy, or more open to common consideration.
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] TV commercial |
| From: |
Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:54:55 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Yes, I have seen this commercial a few times. It is
> interesting how they
> mixed the aspects of ancient Rome such as togas, and
> the old architecture
> with aspects of the modern day such as cars, planes,
> and computers. Maybe
> this is what the future will look like if things go
> our way. =)
>
> Vale,
>
> "Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum
> mater ab vitualis"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is
> often the mother of virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
May your words fall within the Gods' hearing :-)
Valete
A. Corvus Septimius
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
Kristoffer From <from@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:37:11 +0200 |
|
cassius622@-------- wrote:
> Now you're saying that the moment Nova Roma asks for a membership fee, people
> will leave in a huff? Maybe that is not a bad thing. If folks care so little
> for the rebirth of Rome that it's not worth the price of a large pizza for a
> full year's Citizenship... it is my opinion that they cannot be counted on
> for much meaningful involvement. Yes, they may talk in the forum, but if
> pocket change is (for the great majority of us anyway) is beyond their level
> of commitment, they will do little to assist the Roman ideal in the long run.
Salve, Marce Cassi Juliane.
Please note that Gnaeus Salix Astur chose to employ the word
"assidui" and not "cives". Unless my understanding of the english
language is insufficient in this particular case, that should mean that
he's stating the following.
"If a majority of citizens fail to pay their taxes, they will,
according to the lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi, be counted as
capiti censi, with a limited amount of voting power. Given thus that a
majority of citizens has a minority of the voting power, the democratic
process would be disrupted."
(To Gnaeus Salix Astur: I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted your intent.
Please correct me if this is erroneous. I meant no harm by it.)
So, he's not saying that people will leave in a huff, but rather that
if a lot of citizens won't pay taxes, they will therefore lose their
political clout. If this "lot" of citizens get "shuffled away" in
elections, the entire democratic process of Nova Roma is in danger. If
the capiti censi are actually a majority, and are continuously
overridden by the minority of citizens paying taxes, how democratic can
then Nova Roma be said to be?
Regarding your, in my opinion, rather optimistic approximation of how
many cives would pay taxes, I must agree with the sentiment expressed by
Gnaeus Salix Astur. A majority will not pay. This is just a gut feeling,
but your estimation of 500 paying citizens doesn't sound realistic. To
get a somewhat more reliable guess, I'd suggest we check how many
citizens have voted as most, in any election thus far, and then multiply
this amount by, say, 0.75. Meaning that three quarters of all voting
citizens would be willing to pay taxes. Could a number of voting
citizens be easily acquired? It would be interesting to have,
considering the only consquences of not paying taxes are lessened voting
potential, and an inability to run for office.
I'm tired, I've been discussin alternately movies, world politics and
different types of bottles for the past three hours. If I'm aggressive
and/or impolite in this post, I apologize beforehand. I'm not attacking,
but rather trying to do something about what I considered a
misapprehension in an exchange between two citizens. I'm sorry if my
intrusion is unnecessary and unwanted, I just felt obliged to say
something.
Vale,
Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum
AKA Kristoffer From
---
Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.
- Not-so-famous quotation
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Number of Voters, May C.P.T. |
| From: |
"Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:58:11 -0400 |
|
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
For those who are discussing taxes, and wondering how many voted in the last election in order to use the numbers to help determine how many citizens might pay taxes, we had a total of 138 valid votes in the election held in the Comitia Populi Tributa during the first two weeks of May.
Valete, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canada Orientalis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 10:11:40 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
SNIP
>
> So, he's not saying that people will leave in a huff, but rather that
> if a lot of citizens won't pay taxes, they will therefore lose their
> political clout. If this "lot" of citizens get "shuffled away" in
> elections, the entire democratic process of Nova Roma is in danger. If
> the capiti censi are actually a majority, and are continuously
> overridden by the minority of citizens paying taxes, how democratic can
> then Nova Roma be said to be?
DRUSUS: It has been said that Democarcy is three wolves and a sheep
voting on whats for dinner. One aspect of modern democarcy that we can
do without is the idea that those who contribute nothing to the state
should have as much voice in it's affairs as the people who are paying
the bills. There are few things more unfair than two people who pay
nothing out voting a person who pays his taxes on how that money is
going to be spent. In Roma Antiquita the people who had the most clout
in the Centuries were the People who paid the most taxes. This is the
nation we are seeking to rebuild, not the Athenian democarcy that was
plauged by tyrants who won power by buying votes from the poor with
the money of the wealthy.
> Regarding your, in my opinion, rather optimistic approximation of how
> many cives would pay taxes, I must agree with the sentiment expressed by
> Gnaeus Salix Astur. A majority will not pay. This is just a gut feeling,
> but your estimation of 500 paying citizens doesn't sound realistic. To
> get a somewhat more reliable guess, I'd suggest we check how many
> citizens have voted as most, in any election thus far, and then multiply
> this amount by, say, 0.75. Meaning that three quarters of all voting
> citizens would be willing to pay taxes. Could a number of voting
> citizens be easily acquired? It would be interesting to have,
> considering the only consquences of not paying taxes are lessened voting
> potential, and an inability to run for office.
>
DRUSUS:We do also have citizens who have strong intrests in other
areas of Nova Roma besides it's politics. I think that many of these
people will willingly pay a reasonable tax. We had about 200 people
vote in the December election, and about 300 new citizens since then.
We will add around 200 to 300 more by the end of the year. That's 700
to 800 people who have shown intrest in the last year. If we are lucky
half will pay, giving us around 350 to 400 taxpaying citizens. I am a
little more pessimistic, and think less than half will pay, and look
for around 300 taxpayers.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
Kristoffer From <from@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:40:03 +0200 |
|
Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> One aspect of modern democarcy that we can do without is the idea
> that those who contribute nothing to the state should have as much
> voice in it's affairs as the people who are paying the bills. There
> are few things more unfair than two people who pay nothing out-
> voting a person who pays his taxes on how that money is going to be
> spent. In Roma Antiquita the people who had the most clout in the
> Centuries were the People who paid the most taxes.
Salvete, Luci Sicini Druse et omnes.
Excuse me, are you saying that you believe that political influence in
Nova Roma should be dependant upon a person's wealth, and his/her
willingness to share that wealth with the res publica? If so, I must
state that if this were ever to be implemented, I would not hesitate to
leave Nova Roma. I'm sorry, but that's just how I feel in this matter.
As your own american constitution states, "All men are created equal".
Why then should men be judged differently by the numbers in a bank
account? I acknowledge that we're not trying to create Utopia here, but
neither are we attempting to wholly revive Roma Antiqua. We're merely
reviving her ideals, and the parts of her culture that is acceptable in
a modern society. Some parts, such as slavery and established social
differences, are not, in my opinion.
Just to avoid that type of accusations, I'm not threatening to leave.
How that would be a threat, I'm not sure, since I currently am in no way
essential to the running of the republic. I'm just saying that I would
have no further business to conduct in a place where the poor are being
trodden on, due solely to their monetary status. Presently, and
hopefully in the future as well, Nova Roma is indifferent to the wealth
of her cives. So you're all still redeemable...;-)
Regarding the number of voters, I am what is known as a psychic, (Or was
that cynic? I always tend to get those two confused...) which allows me
to guess that we're likely to get taxes from, at the most, 150 persons.
And I doubt even that many will pay. Figures of 400+ sounds, to me,
wholly unrealistic, considering the participation I've seen while in
Nova Roma. If you're neither interested in voting nor holding public
office, paying taxes holds no meaning to you. Maybe voluntary
contributions, but not taxes. And since 138 persons voted in the last
elections, and probably all interested in holding office voted, we're
actually looking at 138 persons with motivation to pay taxes. Some of
these most likely won't, either, so don't count on any massive turnouts
until you've actually counted the treasury money.
Swedish expression: "Don't sell the skin until you've shot the bear."
Valete,
Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum
AKA Kristoffer From
---
Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.
- Not-so-famous quotation
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:21:25 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> > One aspect of modern democarcy that we can do without is the idea
> > that those who contribute nothing to the state should have as much
> > voice in it's affairs as the people who are paying the bills. There
> > are few things more unfair than two people who pay nothing out-
> > voting a person who pays his taxes on how that money is going to be
> > spent. In Roma Antiquita the people who had the most clout in the
> > Centuries were the People who paid the most taxes.
>
> Salvete, Luci Sicini Druse et omnes.
>
> Excuse me, are you saying that you believe that political influence in
> Nova Roma should be dependant upon a person's wealth, and his/her
> willingness to share that wealth with the res publica? If so, I must
> state that if this were ever to be implemented, I would not hesitate to
> leave Nova Roma.
DRUSUS: Not wealth, but willingness to contribute. We allready have
this idea partialy in place with the awarding of century points for
holding office, I see no problem with extending this to contributing
money as well as time, as long as the expected monatary contribution
is an ammount that all citizens could reasonably be expected to pay. I
am NOT in favor of selling century points to the highest bidder. I
feel that those who do make the minimal contribution of money should
have a greater voice in our affairs than those who refuse to pay thier
fair share.
> I'm sorry, but that's just how I feel in this matter.
> As your own american constitution states, "All men are created equal".
DRUSUS: Actually it's the US Declaration of Independance, and the idea
being expressed concerns having privilages related to birth, ie you do
not deserve a postion in the government simply because your father was
the Duke of something. At the time this was written the
Colonies/states had properity qualifications for voting, and most of
them retained these well into the 19th century.
> Why then should men be judged differently by the numbers in a bank
> account? I acknowledge that we're not trying to create Utopia here, but
> neither are we attempting to wholly revive Roma Antiqua. We're merely
> reviving her ideals, and the parts of her culture that is acceptable in
> a modern society. Some parts, such as slavery and established social
> differences, are not, in my opinion.
DRUSUS: This is NOT about establishing differences based on wealth,
it's giving a greater voice to those who contribute. Placing those who
refuse to contribute in the Capti Censi is a very mild punishment.
Look at how the Macro Nations handle people who refuse to pay taxes.
Fines and/or imprisonment. Look at how private organizations deal with
those who don't pay dues. They are no longer members, and this
includes organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union, and
the US Libertarian Party, both of whom have very strong views on the
equality of people.
>
> Just to avoid that type of accusations, I'm not threatening to leave.
> How that would be a threat, I'm not sure, since I currently am in no way
> essential to the running of the republic. I'm just saying that I would
> have no further business to conduct in a place where the poor are being
> trodden on, due solely to their monetary status. Presently, and
> hopefully in the future as well, Nova Roma is indifferent to the wealth
> of her cives. So you're all still redeemable...;-)
>
> Regarding the number of voters, I am what is known as a psychic, (Or was
> that cynic? I always tend to get those two confused...) which allows me
> to guess that we're likely to get taxes from, at the most, 150 persons.
> And I doubt even that many will pay. Figures of 400+ sounds, to me,
> wholly unrealistic, considering the participation I've seen while in
> Nova Roma. If you're neither interested in voting nor holding public
> office, paying taxes holds no meaning to you. Maybe voluntary
> contributions, but not taxes. And since 138 persons voted in the last
> elections, and probably all interested in holding office voted, we're
> actually looking at 138 persons with motivation to pay taxes. Some of
> these most likely won't, either, so don't count on any massive turnouts
> until you've actually counted the treasury money.
DRUSUS: Allthough the items placed before the Comitia stired up a lot
of comments on this list, there were a lot of citizens who didn't
consider any of them important. That is why I used the 200 who voted
in December as a base. We have added more citizens since then. In
other organizations that I have belonged to there were far more
members who paid dues than the number who bothered to vote. 25%
turnouts of Dues paying members aren't uncommon.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Main List Content; |
| From: |
mansker@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:57:55 -0000 |
|
Salve Senator Audens;
It pains me to see such a generous and learned man make this decision
due to a base of contentious and angry posters on this list.
I am an avid reader of this list, although I only post occasionally,
primarily because either someone has already made the point that I
wanted to make, or because I, too, am tired of seeing the same people
make the same points over and over, and watching people beat a dead
horse until it's flattened.
Perhaps in the future, when NovaRoma has become bigger and more
organized, we will see some changes to this habit.
You might be interested in a big called, I believe, "The perfect
storm", which is a history of SF fandom in the early days. From the
book, I would make the guess that we are simply repeating what has
happened before, as they had the same problems that we are discussing.
Gaia Flacca Severa
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Tax payer numbers |
| From: |
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:26:41 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/16/2001 3:35:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:
> If we are lucky
> half will pay, giving us around 350 to 400 taxpaying citizens. I am a
> little more pessimistic, and think less than half will pay, and look
> for around 300 taxpayers.
>
Salvete,
Based on my model last year, 250 would pay the tax by the due date, another
40 would struggle in late. We would lose 20 members, who would resign on
principal or who wanted a free lunch.
Next year perhaps 30 more will pay out of the old membership, but out of the
new membership 90% would pay. Why? Because they never experienced a "free"
NR,
so they have no prejudice against paying for it. By year five, 60-70% will
be paying taxes
and while we might see an upsurge of 5%, around 20-30% will never pay, happy
to be captie censi. About that $5.00 US minimum suggestion, the collection
costs would far out weigh the benefits.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Extra Tax Benefits |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:11:07 -0400 |
|
Salvete cives et amici,
Should we not encourage citizens to go above the minimum rate? I personally
think we should offer extra century points to those who pay a substantial
amount more then the $12.00. I could easily see serious citizens choosing
this path if we made it available to them. It would also be nice to throw a
bit more into the treasury if possible, seeing that a low turnout is
expected.
Donec infra,
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Ave,
I have to disagree with part of this post. I don't
feel you can base the number of cives who will pay the
set tax based on the number of voters we have. I, for
one, joined Nova Roma for historical reasons a few
months ago and didn't get involved with NR's political
side until recently. i simply didn't have the
interest when I first joined. That doesn't mean that
I didn't support Nova Roma. I purchased products,
subscribed to the Eagle and signed up 4 citizens
within a couple of months all before I even joined the
main list last month. I guess for me, it was a sort
of gradual process. But I would have happily paid the
$12.00 initial membership just to be part of Nova
Roma. My point here is that we can't conclude that who
votes and who doesn't gives us a clear perspective on
how many cives would pay taxes. Again, I wish we
would stop referring to this sum as a tax and call it
a donation which it really is. Maybe what we should
do is take a poll and find out why people joined Nova
Roma and what they want from Her. That might give us a
clearer picture of what cives are willing to do to
bring Her to life.
Vale,
Pompeia Antonia Caesar
--- Kristoffer From <from@--------> wrote:
> cassius622@-------- wrote:
> > Now you're saying that the moment Nova Roma asks
> for a membership fee, people
> > will leave in a huff? Maybe that is not a bad
> thing. If folks care so little
> > for the rebirth of Rome that it's not worth the
> price of a large pizza for a
> > full year's Citizenship... it is my opinion that
> they cannot be counted on
> > for much meaningful involvement. Yes, they may
> talk in the forum, but if
> > pocket change is (for the great majority of us
> anyway) is beyond their level
> > of commitment, they will do little to assist the
> Roman ideal in the long run.
>
> Salve, Marce Cassi Juliane.
>
> Please note that Gnaeus Salix Astur chose to
> employ the word
> "assidui" and not "cives". Unless my understanding
> of the english
> language is insufficient in this particular case,
> that should mean that
> he's stating the following.
>
> "If a majority of citizens fail to pay their
> taxes, they will,
> according to the lex Vedia de assidui et capiti
> censi, be counted as
> capiti censi, with a limited amount of voting power.
> Given thus that a
> majority of citizens has a minority of the voting
> power, the democratic
> process would be disrupted."
>
> (To Gnaeus Salix Astur: I'm sorry if I've
> misinterpreted your intent.
> Please correct me if this is erroneous. I meant no
> harm by it.)
>
> So, he's not saying that people will leave in a
> huff, but rather that
> if a lot of citizens won't pay taxes, they will
> therefore lose their
> political clout. If this "lot" of citizens get
> "shuffled away" in
> elections, the entire democratic process of Nova
> Roma is in danger. If
> the capiti censi are actually a majority, and are
> continuously
> overridden by the minority of citizens paying taxes,
> how democratic can
> then Nova Roma be said to be?
>
> Regarding your, in my opinion, rather optimistic
> approximation of how
> many cives would pay taxes, I must agree with the
> sentiment expressed by
> Gnaeus Salix Astur. A majority will not pay. This is
> just a gut feeling,
> but your estimation of 500 paying citizens doesn't
> sound realistic. To
> get a somewhat more reliable guess, I'd suggest we
> check how many
> citizens have voted as most, in any election thus
> far, and then multiply
> this amount by, say, 0.75. Meaning that three
> quarters of all voting
> citizens would be willing to pay taxes. Could a
> number of voting
> citizens be easily acquired? It would be interesting
> to have,
> considering the only consquences of not paying taxes
> are lessened voting
> potential, and an inability to run for office.
>
> I'm tired, I've been discussin alternately
> movies, world politics and
> different types of bottles for the past three hours.
> If I'm aggressive
> and/or impolite in this post, I apologize
> beforehand. I'm not attacking,
> but rather trying to do something about what I
> considered a
> misapprehension in an exchange between two citizens.
> I'm sorry if my
> intrusion is unnecessary and unwanted, I just felt
> obliged to say
> something.
>
> Vale,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consiliarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
> o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
> R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] taxes |
| From: |
PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:38:02 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Avete Omnes,
I think we have to offer more than just voting rights
to encourage membership. How many people in Nova Roma
even care about the voting process or century points?
That's not to say that it isn't important but many
thing attract individuals to NR and politics may just
not be someone's cup of tea (or wine, I should say).
If we offer other benefits along with century points
and voting rights it will certainly be more
encouragement for those not interested in politics to
join of which I suspect there are many such as these
in NR.
Vale,
Pompeia Antonia Caesar
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: taxes |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:39:27 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> I think we have to offer more than just voting rights
> to encourage membership. How many people in Nova Roma
> even care about the voting process or century points?
> That's not to say that it isn't important but many
> thing attract individuals to NR and politics may just
> not be someone's cup of tea (or wine, I should say).
> If we offer other benefits along with century points
> and voting rights it will certainly be more
> encouragement for those not interested in politics to
> join of which I suspect there are many such as these
> in NR.
>
> Vale,
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>
Salvete,
I think Pompeia Antonia has a point here. We do have many citizens who
aren't intrested in politics. We need to offer other things to
citizens who pay more than the minimum tax rate.
I think we should put the idea of Century Points aside for now.
Allthough the concept that those who pay more have a greater voice in
public affairs is in keeping with the mos maiorum, I fear that too
many moderns will consider it selling policital power.
We can look at how many non profits handle fund raising however. They
have things like silver and gold sponsership, and rewards for these
sponsers. We can do the same. I suggest three levels, Pyropus
(Bronze), Argentum (Silver) and Aurum (Gold) Sponsership levels.
Exactaly what we offer these citizens would depend on the level of
money required above the minimum tax. A web page with thier pictures
and names would be a good start. A Diploma stating that they are a
Pyropus, Argentum, or Aurum donor. Subscriptions to the Eagle,
Sesterces, or even a flag could be offered.
The Censors could set aside, as names of distinction, the agnomens
Pyropus, Argenteus, and Aureus, and these citizens would have the
honor of using these agnomens for that year.
it would work something like this,
Paying $25.00 above the minimum tax would be a pyropus donor.
Paying $50.00 above the minimun tax would be a Argentum donor.
Paying $100.00 above the minimum tax would be a Aurum donor.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Extra Tax Benefits |
| From: |
exitil@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:39:57 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/16/01 12:27:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
pkkt@-------- writes:
>
> Salvete cives et amici,
>
> Should we not encourage citizens to go above the minimum rate? I personally
> think we should offer extra century points to those who pay a substantial
> amount more then the $12.00. I could easily see serious citizens choosing
> this path if we made it available to them. It would also be nice to throw a
> bit more into the treasury if possible, seeing that a low turnout is
> expected.
>
> Donec infra,
I think this is an EXCELLENT suggestion. Those who dedicate money to NR,
just like the people who dedicate time (through holding office), should be
given some sort of recognition for this, and increased political influence,
since after all it shows that they have a high interest in NR, and most
importantly, ITS SUCCESS.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Main List Content and Utopia |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT) |
|
jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
Nova Roma Citizens;
Those citizens who have contacted me and asked me to take some action
about the percieved political clutter, repetitive rehashings and
argumentative postings on the Main List, will have seen in recent weeks
the responses from the other members of the Main List in opposition to
my requests for consideration of such. In short, the vocal minority
likes the present situation!!!
Maximina: The vocal "minority" you are speaking of apparently is the majority of people who contribute to this list as far as I can tell. I guess one could assume that Ancient Romans were *always* civil, and *always* positively saccharin.
o see that many of those who have objected to my requests,
have done so in both unneccessarly harsh and insulting ways directed
both at the requests, which you have made of me, and to the List
Moderators through the opposition's ignorance and hatefullness, as well
as thier love of the sound of thier own overwhelmingl volume of words,
as opposed to others more moderate in thier needs / desires.
Maximina: Be fair now. This is quite the lengthy message.
I now take this opportunity to apologize to the List Moderators, most
sincerely, for my requests of you. Had I realized at the time of my
request, that the hatefullness on this list had very nearly reached the
"tide line" of the "Back Ally" in the activities / comments of some, I
should have undertaken to place the questions before the Citizens
personnally, so as to relieve you very dear ladies of the unwelcome
responses recieved. I am most devastated that two ladies of the first
class, such as Mistresses Vedia and Strabo should have been subjected to
such harsh, unfeeling and unsympathetic comments from a very small
cross-section of this Main List. A croos-section who, were it not for
the very mild moderation imposed in NR, would in short order create the
equivelent of the filth and unlimited commets and accusations of the
"Back Alley List."
Maximina: I think that the Moderators are adult enough to be assured that there is nothing personal toward them in the opinions offered on the Main List. Not every opposing thought is an offering of a personal attack. I feel badly that you see well thought out logical presentation of opinion in such a sinister way. (Of course, there are always exceptions.) I, for one, value the Moderators and respect the difficult task they have undertaken.
You, my friends -- who have asked me to take action --, and I have been
invited to leave the list or to simply "hit the delete key", two answers
which in the past have not gone down well in other venues, when such
responses were directed at those who now direct them at us. However, it
is not my intent to "crab" unneccessarily about the desires of the
"vocal minority" who choke our Main List with thier everlasting
argument, clack, and innuendo. Many have already complained about such
and after being ignored, have left the list, dispairing of finding the
very thing that we all came to this place for. The ProPraetors in
attempting to contact those citizens in their Provinciae cannot account
for the unwillingness for former citizens to respond. I suspect
strongly that the disappointments of the Main List has a great deal to
do with that and other problems in NR in regard to reawakening an
interest in the micronation from older citizens who have "drifted away."
However, as our "macro-posters" have indicated, in many diferent ways
and attitudes, there are always more citizens to be found, so those who
have left can be spared!! However, that problem will be undertaken by
the Senior Magistrates of NR when it is realized that such has rached
the point where something must be done about it.
Maximina: Why read these posts you complain about when they are so offensive to you? It is like watching a TV program that offends you and then complaining about it when all you have to do is change the channel. Merely, suggesting that one hit the delete key is a reasonable and *logical* solution. I hit the delete key often for posts that do not interest me, and I see nothing sinister in suggesting same.
Personnaly, after over three years I have heard about all that these
"multi-posting citizens" have to say. I was not impressed at the
beginning and am much less so now. The Main List will be what you allow
it to be, and since my outspoken objections to what it has become fall
upon deaf or unwilling ears, I have no more time to devote to such. I
will no longer devote myself to reading the Main List Mail message by
message because I no longer have the time to do so. I will do my best
for any Citizen who requests it, as I have always tried to do, but I
would ask that you will contact me personnally, or through the Senate,
Provincia or the Militarium Staffs.
Maximina: As Drusus and others put it "Start a new thread of something that is interesting for you" (paraphrase). You obviously have the mental acuity.
I have all the time in the world to help those who have questions about
NR---However, I no longer have any time at all to listen to the constant
argument of children, the consistant and repetitive comments of those
who must be part and parcel of every single question and discussion
point on the Main List, or those who have no education in the usage of
polite and reasonable language.
I am sorry that my last efforts have not been more successful or more
amenable to common courtesy, or more open to common consideration.
Respectfully; Marcus Audens
Maximina: If you are expecting a Utopia here, I suggest that you be proactive in creating it and stop blaming everyone else for proceeding as *you* would not have them proceed.
I would be very worried if the military were scared off or threatened by a bunch of words. What would they do if there were a battle? "Ooo, Ow, stop it that hurts you bad enemy!" No offence meant (just a feeble attempt at humor), but the real world does not operate as a Paradise. If one joins Nova Roma to escape reality, I am sorry but it is everywhere, even here.
I apologize if my opinions offend you, please don't take my sarcasm personally, I use it only to illustrate a point not as personal attack to you.
Thank you for your opinion. I, for one, value it even if I do not agree.
Vale, Maximina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lead Pipes & Calcium Deposits |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 10:26:53 -0700 (PDT) |
|
b1abkj64 <a.cato@--------> wrote:
Salve,
See what a little research and a cool head can produce? Bravo, well done! Without having read your message, I theorized that the Romans could not help but know about the toxicity of lead. Thanks for the confirmation and the education!
Vale, Maximina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Main List Content; |
| From: |
radams36@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:17:49 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
> Salve Senator Audens;
>
> It pains me to see such a generous and learned man make this
decision
> due to a base of contentious and angry posters on this list.
>
> I am an avid reader of this list, although I only post
occasionally,
> primarily because either someone has already made the point that I
> wanted to make, or because I, too, am tired of seeing the same
people
> make the same points over and over, and watching people beat a dead
> horse until it's flattened.
>
> Perhaps in the future, when NovaRoma has become bigger and more
> organized, we will see some changes to this habit.
>
> You might be interested in a big called, I believe, "The perfect
> storm", which is a history of SF fandom in the early days. From
the
> book, I would make the guess that we are simply repeating what has
> happened before, as they had the same problems that we are
discussing.
>
> Gaia Flacca Severa
I am forced to agree, citizens - being new here, I've held my tongue,
but the lack of civility that permeates so many of the posts has been
quite disturbing - from the censorship arguments and the multi-
faceted associated rudeness, to the arrogant, high-handed statements
that those who aren't willing to be taxed need to rethink their
priorities (frankly, my priorities are just that - mine, and my own
business). The political infighting and quibbling and mind-numbing
repetition of arguments based more on volume than reason is quite
tiresome. In fact, I personally wish there were more reflection and
commentary on Ancient Rome, whether in the form of cultural,
architectural, political, religious, military, or other forms of
insight - perhaps some ideas of why some Roman ideas would still work
today (although certainly some would not). Instead, an initially
interesting discussion of calcification and lead in the aqueducts
degenerates into senseless pomposity and arrogant one-upmanship.
I'm sticking it out, because I've always been interested in Roman
history and culture, and I think the micronation has some undeveloped
potential that I hope to see realized. Until then, I wish everyone
would show a little respect for their fellow citizens and try to
simply get along. Disagreement does not have to lead to ad hominem
attacks (in fact, the ad hominem attack is a de facto logical
fallacy, and usually reflects more poorly on the attacker than the
attacked).
It is the measured, calm, and intelligent approach and attitude of
citizens like yourselves that serves as a model we would all do well
to emulate. In my opinion (for what it's worth), therein lies the
real hope of Nova Roma's future.
R Palaeologus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Rome - Byzantium |
| From: |
radams36@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:41:17 -0000 |
|
I would like to pose a general question to any interested citizens,
and to request that the list moderators consider this for an
informative (non-political) poll (which I think we could use more
of). I referenced this idea a bit more obliquely before, but would
like to ask a little more head-on:
Does the citizenry, on the whole, consider the Byzantine Empire as
the continuation of the Roman Empire (as, indeed, the citizens of
Byzantium certainly did)? Would discussion of the Byzantine Empire be
considered appropriate on the list in and of itself, or only as it
relates directly to the Western Roman Empire? At what point do we
make the distinction on which is which (Roman or Byzantine), if at
all?
I'd be interested in any opinions.
Thank you for your attention and time, cives!
R Palaeologus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
radams36@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:45:17 -0000 |
|
> Maybe what we should
> do is take a poll and find out why people joined Nova
> Roma and what they want from Her. That might give us a
> clearer picture of what cives are willing to do to
> bring Her to life.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>
I think that is a very good idea, Pompeia - I further suggest the
poll should differentiate long, medium, and short-term goals and
ideas.
Vale,
R Palaeologus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: taxes |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:02:37 -0400 |
|
Salvete
Ooooh I LIKE this idea. In fact, this meshes pretty well with something else
I've had kicking around my skull lately; namely, doing an annual
fund-raising drive each Autumn. (That, and a recruiting drive in the
Spring.)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 3:39 PM
>
> Exactaly what we offer these citizens would depend on the level of
> money required above the minimum tax. A web page with thier pictures
> and names would be a good start. A Diploma stating that they are a
> Pyropus, Argentum, or Aurum donor. Subscriptions to the Eagle,
> Sesterces, or even a flag could be offered.
Definitely a certificate for all levels. Putting up a special web page
shouldn't prove too difficult, either. A sestercius coin and bumper sticker
for Pyropus, 5 coins, a sticker, and a flag for Argentum, and 10 coins, a
sticker, a flag, and a subscription for Aurum, perhaps? (Just off the top of
my head.)
> The Censors could set aside, as names of distinction, the agnomens
> Pyropus, Argenteus, and Aureus, and these citizens would have the
> honor of using these agnomens for that year.
I think this is an exceptional idea, if the Censors agree.
> it would work something like this,
>
> Paying $25.00 above the minimum tax would be a pyropus donor.
> Paying $50.00 above the minimun tax would be a Argentum donor.
> Paying $100.00 above the minimum tax would be a Aurum donor.
Outstanding idea. It might be a tad hard to manage if it was done this way
year-round, but if we did a special fundraiser during, say, September (in
time for the Senate to include the funds in the coming year's budget; makes
it MUCH easier to deal with), parceling out the gifts might not be a
complete nightmare.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Hello! |
| From: |
Emilia Finnlund <emilia.finnlund@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:54:15 +0300 |
|
Salvete omnes,
I have been a citizen of Nova Roma for a while and I am the webmaster
of the future site of Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et
Nova (The Academia of Thule for Ancient and Nova Roman studies). I'm
interested to know more about the Roman history and Via Romana. I
think that the Roman virtues could have importance to people in
today's world, where personal opinions are rather seen as inviolate
expressions of individuality than objects of refinement.
As we, a small group of people responsible for the operations of the
Academia, were planning the contents of the site, an idea of building
the site's user interface into a form of a ground plan of an academia
building was brought up. Now, I would be very interested to know, if
any ground plans of such buildings have survived in one form or
another!
--
Emilia Curia Finnica
Scriba Araniae Academiae Thules
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax payer numbers |
| From: |
Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:50:41 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I think that a 15 USD would be appropiate.
--- QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:
> In a message dated 7/16/2001 3:35:57 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
>
> > If we are lucky
> > half will pay, giving us around 350 to 400
> taxpaying citizens. I am a
> > little more pessimistic, and think less than half
> will pay, and look
> > for around 300 taxpayers.
> >
>
> Salvete,
> Based on my model last year, 250 would pay the tax
> by the due date, another
> 40 would struggle in late. We would lose 20
> members, who would resign on
> principal or who wanted a free lunch.
> Next year perhaps 30 more will pay out of the old
> membership, but out of the
> new membership 90% would pay. Why? Because they
> never experienced a "free"
> NR,
> so they have no prejudice against paying for it. By
> year five, 60-70% will
> be paying taxes
> and while we might see an upsurge of 5%, around
> 20-30% will never pay, happy
> to be captie censi. About that $5.00 US minimum
> suggestion, the collection
> costs would far out weigh the benefits.
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Benefits from Taxes |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:51:07 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, T. Octavi.
--- Kristoffer From <from@--------> wrote:
<<previous post snipped>>
> Salve, Marce Cassi Juliane.
>
> Please note that Gnaeus Salix Astur chose to employ the word
> "assidui" and not "cives". Unless my understanding of the english
> language is insufficient in this particular case, that should mean
> that
> he's stating the following.
>
> "If a majority of citizens fail to pay their taxes, they will,
> according to the lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi, be counted as
> capiti censi, with a limited amount of voting power. Given thus that
> a
> majority of citizens has a minority of the voting power, the
> democratic
> process would be disrupted."
>
> (To Gnaeus Salix Astur: I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted your intent.
> Please correct me if this is erroneous. I meant no harm by it.)
You understood what I was trying to say, and then you expressed it in a
much better manner.
Thank you very much, Tite.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ignore, Just a Test |
| From: |
"A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:55:11 -0400 |
|
Simply a Test
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Rome - Byzantium |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:21:35 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, Palaeologe.
--- radams36@-------- wrote:
<<snipped>>
> Does the citizenry, on the whole, consider the Byzantine Empire as
> the continuation of the Roman Empire (as, indeed, the citizens of
> Byzantium certainly did)? Would discussion of the Byzantine Empire be
> considered appropriate on the list in and of itself, or only as it
> relates directly to the Western Roman Empire? At what point do we
> make the distinction on which is which (Roman or Byzantine), if at
> all?
A fine line of conversation, Palaeologe. In my humble opinion, the
Byzantine Empire would be one of the two offsprings of the Roman
civilization. The other would be Western Christiandom, and the various
Germanic-Roman kingdoms that took the place of the Roman Empire in the
West. Most of the legislation and cultural heritage of these kingdoms
was mainly Roman, and it is through this heritage that our own
civilization comes from.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Main List Content; |
| From: |
"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <julilla@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:42:30 -0000 |
|
radams36@-------- wrote:
<snipped>
>
> I'm sticking it out, because I've always been interested in Roman
> history and culture, and I think the micronation has some
undeveloped potential that I hope to see realized. Until then, I wish
everyone would show a little respect for their fellow citizens and
try to simply get along. Disagreement does not have to lead to ad
hominem attacks (in fact, the ad hominem attack is a de facto logical
fallacy, and usually reflects more poorly on the attacker than the
attacked).
>
> It is the measured, calm, and intelligent approach and attitude of
citizens like yourselves that serves as a model we would all do well
to emulate. In my opinion (for what it's worth), therein lies the
real hope of Nova Roma's future.
>
> R Palaeologus
I HEARTILY agree. Would that we saw more of Roma's great virtues:
Aequitas (fair dealings and impartiality) and Liberalitas
(generosity, open-mindedness) to say nothing of Humanitas
(refinement, learning, culture and civility). I wish there were more
oppportunities for thoughtful, reflective discussions of Roma's great
history and the renaissance of Roman culture and ideals here.
We are examples to each other and to newcomers each and every day.
Let's think of that before descending to mere back-bencher squabbling.
---
cura et valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| http://julilla.tripod.com/
Daily Life in Ancient Rome
@____@ julilla@--------
||||
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: taxes |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:35:32 -0400 |
|
Flavius Vedius Germanicus at germanicus@-------- wrote:
> Definitely a certificate for all levels. Putting up a special web page
> shouldn't prove too difficult, either. A sestercius coin and bumper sticker
> for Pyropus, 5 coins, a sticker, and a flag for Argentum, and 10 coins, a
> sticker, a flag, and a subscription for Aurum, perhaps? (Just off the top of
> my head.)
Salve,
A certificate is a great idea! I am currently working on the Nova Roma
citizenship certificate, although I would love it also take part in helping
to design these newly proposed certificates. If you wish to seriously pursue
this I could develop a prototype design to aide to this cause within a few
days.
Donec infra,
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax payer numbers |
| From: |
Kristoffer From <from@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:34:47 +0200 |
|
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:
> About that $5.00 US minimum suggestion, the collection
> costs would far out weigh the benefits.
Salve, Q. Fabi Maxime.
I apologize if I've missed something; but what are the collection costs?
Aren't citizens (With the current taxation proposal) supposed to deposit
$12 on a Nova Roman bank account? If I've understood PayPal correctly,
you get as much money as I send you, no costs involved.
By the way, will Nova Roma be subject to US taxation, or are we as a
non-profit organization exempt from taxes? I'm not well-versed in US
legislation.
Just trying to get a better understanding of the big picture, no offense
in here.
Vale,
Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum
AKA Kristoffer From
---
Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.
- Not-so-famous quotation
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Municipia |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Marcos=20Boehme?= <marminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:18:55 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salvete, Quirites
Some time ago, C Flavius Diocletianus, the Praetor and
Governor of Germania issued a edict about the
organization of their province in municipia. And now,
L Sicinius Drusus touched this question again.
Im curious to know in how the cities of ancient Roman
Republic and Empire organize in the municipal level.
According to Rostovtzeff (not very actual source, it
seems) In the major cities there are a municipal
Senate (called Decuriones), municipal Quaestores and
Aedilis, the equivalent to Consules (Duoviri or
Quatrumviri Iure Dicundo) and Comitiae Municipalis.
There are a Lex, Iulia Municipalis, of 45 aC, issued
by Caesar (i doesnt have the text).
There are various types of cities:
- Civitates, with the Duoviri;
- Colonia, with a administrator, named by a higher
authority (a Consul, or Emperor, perhaps?)
- a Praefectura, with a named administrator,
(Praefectus) as above;
- Municipia, with a more complete organization.
Does anyone have more informations?
Marcus Arminius Maior
Propraetor Brasiliae
Aedilis Plebis
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tenha seu lugar na Web. Construa hoje mesmo sua home page no Yahoo! GeoCities. É fácil e grátis!
http://br.geocities.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
