Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rome - Byzantium
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:32:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, martin p987654 <mp987654@--------> wrote:
> How could the Christians believe in God and at the
> same time acknowldge the Roman gods? This doesn't
> make sense to me. In fact, it is contradictory. If
> you are a Christian, you believe in one God only.
> Thus, you cannot acknowldge the existence of Roman
> gods because such acknowledgement would contradict
> your belief in (only one)God.
>
> I agree with the others. I think that Christians were
> persecuted because they were doing something that was
> not Roman: they believed in God and denied the ancient
> beliefs in Roman gods, thereby making the empire less
> Roman.
>
> Gaius Julius Caesar
>

Salvete Gai Juli Et Omnes,

Do not forget the Jews. They were also Monothesists, who refused to
take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped Yaweh, and refused
to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and they did NOT
suffer the ammount of persecution that the Christians did. Why?

Revelation 17.9 (Angels Explanation of the Beast)
"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven
mountains, on which the woman sitteth"

Revelation 17.18 (Angels Explanation of the Woman)
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth
over the Earth"

The next chapter prophizes that this city on seven mountains that
reigns over the Earth will soon be destroyed.

The Christians were going beyond a simple Monotheism. They were mixing
Politics and religion, and calling for the overthrow of the Roman state.

Not only did they arouse the anger of the Imperial Goverment with
predictions of the destruction of the Roman state, they also managed
to alinate the common people with things like this

I Corinthians 10.20
"But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they
sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should
have fellowship with devils."

In other words the early christians were not content to simply worship
God as they wished, they also attacked the Religio as demon worship.
These attacks against the Religio bought the anger of the people on them.

The Christian attacks on the Roman state and the Religio are the
reason they suffered "persecution" not the different view of the
Nature of the divinity. If the Christians had avoided attacking the
state and the Religio, I don't think anyone except some of the crazier
Princeps would have ever taken notice of them.

The Intolarance that the Christians showed towards the Pagans after
they gained power wasn't simply a reaction to the "persecutions", It
was a part of the Religion from the start, and was an important factor
in stirring up the "persecutions".

(Quotes are from the revised King James version)

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:03:20 -0700 (PDT)

I, Lucius Sicinus Drusus (John Dobbins) do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Sicinus Drusus
(John Dobbins) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses
of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Lucius Sicinus Drusus (John Dobbins) swear to
uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Lucius Sicinus Drusus (John Dobbins) swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Sicinus Drusus (John Dobbins) further swear
to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the
office of Propraetor of America Austrorientalis to the
best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of Propraetor of America Austrorientalis and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] AMERICA AUSTROIENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER ONE
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:43:45 -0700 (PDT)

AMERICA AUSTROIENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER ONE

DESIGNATION OF PROVINCIAL MAILING LIST

I, Lucius Sicinius Drusus, Propraetor America
Austrorientalis, issue the following Edicta to
designate the official mail list of the Provincia.

1. The official mail list for America Austrorientalis
Provincia will be located at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Austrorientalis

2. All Provincial Edictae and Official Announcements
will be made on the Provincial list and the Nova Roma
main list.

3. The Provincial mail list shall be the offical
repository of all Provincial Edictae and
Announcements, until a web site with a Provincial
Tabularium is established.
=======================================================
Salvete Quirites,

I urge all Citizens residing in America
Austrorientalis, and any other citizens intrested in
the Provincia to sign up for this list.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Site enhancement.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:49:53 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete Cives,

I have added a bold and exciting new feature to the site.

After logging in with a password from your Album Civium page
(linked to from <URL:http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view> ), you
can then customize your personal and gens information at
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/prefs

You can edit your home page address and email address, and, if you
are paterfamilias or materfamilias, edit your gens parameters.

Valete, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rome - Byzantium
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:23:36 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, martin p987654 <mp987654@--------> wrote:
> > How could the Christians believe in God and at the
> > same time acknowldge the Roman gods? This doesn't
> > make sense to me. In fact, it is contradictory. If
> > you are a Christian, you believe in one God only.
> > Thus, you cannot acknowldge the existence of Roman
> > gods because such acknowledgement would contradict
> > your belief in (only one)God.
> >
> > I agree with the others. I think that Christians were
> > persecuted because they were doing something that was
> > not Roman: they believed in God and denied the ancient
> > beliefs in Roman gods, thereby making the empire less
> > Roman.
> >
> > Gaius Julius Caesar
> >
>
> Salvete Gai Juli Et Omnes,
>
> Do not forget the Jews. They were also Monothesists, who refused to
> take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped Yaweh, and
refused
> to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and they did NOT
> suffer the ammount of persecution that the Christians did. Why?
>
> Revelation 17.9 (Angels Explanation of the Beast)
> "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven
> mountains, on which the woman sitteth"
>
> Revelation 17.18 (Angels Explanation of the Woman)
> "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth
> over the Earth"
>
> The next chapter prophizes that this city on seven mountains that
> reigns over the Earth will soon be destroyed.
>
> The Christians were going beyond a simple Monotheism. They were
mixing
> Politics and religion, and calling for the overthrow of the Roman
state.
>
> Not only did they arouse the anger of the Imperial Goverment with
> predictions of the destruction of the Roman state, they also managed
> to alinate the common people with things like this
>
> I Corinthians 10.20
> "But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they
> sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should
> have fellowship with devils."
>
> In other words the early christians were not content to simply
worship
> God as they wished, they also attacked the Religio as demon worship.
> These attacks against the Religio bought the anger of the people on
them.
>
> The Christian attacks on the Roman state and the Religio are the
> reason they suffered "persecution" not the different view of the
> Nature of the divinity. If the Christians had avoided attacking the
> state and the Religio, I don't think anyone except some of the
crazier
> Princeps would have ever taken notice of them.
>
> The Intolarance that the Christians showed towards the Pagans after
> they gained power wasn't simply a reaction to the "persecutions", It
> was a part of the Religion from the start, and was an important
factor
> in stirring up the "persecutions".
>
> (Quotes are from the revised King James version)
>
> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

Salvete!

An interesting perspective, LSD (Hey, is that a coincidence?) I must
confess to having nominal knowledge of the Christian church's early
history after the time of the early apostles, and what knowledge I do
have of the early church was definitely related from a biased
perspective. I have, however, done some reading on how the early
church mercilessly crushed Gnosticism (NOT something for Christians
to take pride in).

I wonder at how intolerant many Christian sects were and are, when I
don't think you could characterize Christ, from all the descriptions
I've ever seen, as being an intolerant person. I can't see much of
the doctrines he espoused (whether you take them as theology or
philosophy) in the rantings of some of those who lay claim to
Christianity today.

Thanks for a thought-provoking post!

R Palaeologvs

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rome - Byzantium
From:	"Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)" <mark.devry@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:16:39 +1200

L. Sicinius Drusus asked this question:

>>Do not forget the Jews. They were also Monothesists, who refused to
take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped Yaweh, and refused
to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and they did NOT
suffer the ammount of persecution that the Christians did. Why?<<

[Mark Sayz] If I may take a stab at the answer to this question, the Jewish
religion was (and is) based to a large extent on race (the Jewish people),
but this newfangled Christianity is open to all peoples of all races and as
a such has opened the floodgates for an exclusive monothiestic religion to
extend beyond the Middle East where the Jewish religion was limited to, to
affect all the peoples under the Roman rule. This made Christianity far
more dangerous to the state than the Jewish religion and so there was a far
stronger response to it.
Also a stong central figure to the Christian religion was a certain
political anti-authoritarian who (to quote Douglas Adams) "found himself
nailed to a cross for saying how nice it would be if everyone got along for
a change". (And anyone noticed how the Romans got blamed for that?)
So given that it had a lack of any check on it's possible growth and it's
strong message challanging the religios and political status-quo,
Christianity would have been far more a threat that the Jewish religion,
thus it provoked and stronger (and sadly bloodier) response from those
authorities that saw themselves threatened.

That's my thoughts on the matter anyway.

Marcus Sentius Accipiter.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rome - Byzantium
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:35:56 -0000

> >>Do not forget the Jews. They were also Monothesists, who refused
to
> take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped Yaweh, and
refused
> to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and they did NOT
> suffer the ammount of persecution that the Christians did. Why?<<
>
>
> [Mark Sayz] If I may take a stab at the answer to this question,
the Jewish
> religion was (and is) based to a large extent on race (the Jewish
people),
> but this newfangled Christianity is open to all peoples of all
races and as
> a such has opened the floodgates for an exclusive monothiestic
religion to
> extend beyond the Middle East where the Jewish religion was limited
to, to
> affect all the peoples under the Roman rule. This made
Christianity far
> more dangerous to the state than the Jewish religion and so there
was a far
> stronger response to it.
> Also a stong central figure to the Christian religion was a certain
> political anti-authoritarian who (to quote Douglas Adams) "found
himself
> nailed to a cross for saying how nice it would be if everyone got
along for
> a change". (And anyone noticed how the Romans got blamed for that?)
> So given that it had a lack of any check on it's possible growth
and it's
> strong message challanging the religios and political status-quo,
> Christianity would have been far more a threat that the Jewish
religion,
> thus it provoked and stronger (and sadly bloodier) response from
those
> authorities that saw themselves threatened.
>
> That's my thoughts on the matter anyway.
>
> Marcus Sentius Accipiter.

Salvete,

That's an interesting idea, too, Marcus. I like the Adams quote, I
hadn't heard that one. It's actually both pointed and poignant.

The inclusiveness of Christianity may very well have made a big
difference. It's not impossible to become Jewish even if born outside
the faith/race, but it's apparently not really easy. Becoming a
Christian, in the strict sense of belonging to the group, doesn't
require any special oaths, rites, birthright, racial or ethnic
background, or anything of the sort: you basically accept the credo,
declare yourself a Christian, and you're in. That would be more
threatening to the established order - the potential for growth is
limitless.

Valete,

R Palaeologvs

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Subject:	[novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:51:51 -0700 (PDT)

Avete,

It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance. As
a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an adopt-a-God
policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful not
to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
better for Rome. But there was one stipulation: you
could belong to any cult you wished as long as you
also belonged to the cult of Caesar. The Romans were
very superstitious people and they felt they needed
everyone's cooperation toward honoring the Gods for
the good of Rome. Not honoring Them was bad luck and
could weaken the empire. Christians were asked to
make a sacrifice, just light a candle or make an
offering of food to the Roman Gods which they refused
to do. This was looked upon as treason and it was
thought that this would jeopardize the welfare of the
empire. Romans did not for the most part actively
seek out Christians, and had Christians made this
small gesture to the Roman Gods as other foreign cults
did they would never have been singled out in the
first place. By the early part of the first century
AD most Romans didn't even know who the Christians
were. Nero brought them to light by using them as a
scapegoat for the devastating fires of Rome in 64 AD.
It says much for Romans that this did not quell the
rumors that Nero was to blame for the fires and many
felt truly sorry for the persecuted Christians. Some
Emperors persecuted Christians in an attempt to wipe
out this strange and foreign cult that disregarded
Roman Law not to mention that the Christians deeply
resented Rome as did the Jews. I suppose that in a way
Christians were looked upon as what we would consider
today as anarchists. Other Emperors practiced
leniency towards the Christians and gave instructions
that they were not to be actively sought out and given
every opportunity to absolve themselves of the
accusations of heresy. It is more clemency than the
Christian Church displayed toward non-Christians
during the Spanish Inquisition. Christian persecution
is really a very complex topic and pagan Rome has
always been portrayed as the evil empire that tried to
destroy Christianity which is really not the full
story at all.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rome - Byzantium
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:10:02 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,

Judaism was an established religion that had existed
for 1500 years before Christianity and centuries
before Rome was even founded (I have read that
archaeological evidence now shows that Rome had
existed in a primitive state as a small village as far
back as 1,000 bce). Christianity was a newly formed
religion thereby more of a threat to Rome because it
was new. Romans knew who the Jews were and as a nation
needed them. The same cannot be said of Christians
who had no nation or home and who must have appeared
to the Romans to be a bunch of vagrants and trouble
makers who were trying to disrupt the Roman Empire.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

--- "Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)"
<mark.devry@--------> wrote:
> L. Sicinius Drusus asked this question:
>
> >>Do not forget the Jews. They were also
> Monothesists, who refused to
> take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped
> Yaweh, and refused
> to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and
> they did NOT
> suffer the ammount of persecution that the
> Christians did. Why?<<
>
>
> [Mark Sayz] If I may take a stab at the answer to
> this question, the Jewish
> religion was (and is) based to a large extent on
> race (the Jewish people),
> but this newfangled Christianity is open to all
> peoples of all races and as
> a such has opened the floodgates for an exclusive
> monothiestic religion to
> extend beyond the Middle East where the Jewish
> religion was limited to, to
> affect all the peoples under the Roman rule. This
> made Christianity far
> more dangerous to the state than the Jewish religion
> and so there was a far
> stronger response to it.
> Also a stong central figure to the Christian
> religion was a certain
> political anti-authoritarian who (to quote Douglas
> Adams) "found himself
> nailed to a cross for saying how nice it would be if
> everyone got along for
> a change". (And anyone noticed how the Romans got
> blamed for that?)
> So given that it had a lack of any check on it's
> possible growth and it's
> strong message challanging the religios and
> political status-quo,
> Christianity would have been far more a threat that
> the Jewish religion,
> thus it provoked and stronger (and sadly bloodier)
> response from those
> authorities that saw themselves threatened.
>
> That's my thoughts on the matter anyway.
>
> Marcus Sentius Accipiter.
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XIV Kalendas Sextilias (July 19th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:40:31 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.

Today is the fist day of the Lucaria which take place on July 19 and July
21. The celebration takes place on a grove ('lucus') that stands between the
Via Salaria and the Tiber. The exact meaning of the festival is since long
forgotten. It may have been a celebration in honour of the Genii Loci
(protector spirits of places) of the woods and groves close to the 'lucus'
(maybe in expiation for the trees felled in that place), Leucaria (mother of
Roma) and Rhea Silvia (mother of Romulus and Remus). Some say that the
'lucus' was the place where the fleeing Romans found shelter after the
disastrous battle of the Allia on July 18th.

The month of Quinctilis is sacred to Iuppiter. It was renamed Iulius in 44
BCE in honour of the deified C. Iulius Caesar.

Dii vos bene ament
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	[novaroma] Byz Empire/Christianity thread
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:58:55 -0400

Salvete,

For an informative read on this subject, try,

JUDEOPHOBIA, by Peter Schafer
Harvard Univ. Press, 1997
ISBN 0-674-48778-8

As a side note for anyone interested in ancient race relations try.

BEFORE COLOR PREJUDICE, by Frrank M. Snowden jr.
Harvard Univ. Press.1983
ISBN 0-674-06381-3

> From: "Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)"
<mark.devry@-------->
> Subject: Re: Rome - Byzantium
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus asked this question:
>
> >>Do not forget the Jews. They were also Monothesists, who refused to
> take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped Yaweh, and refused
> to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and they did NOT
> suffer the ammount of persecution that the Christians did. Why?<<
>
>
> [Mark Sayz] If I may take a stab at the answer to this question, the
Jewish
> religion was (and is) based to a large extent on race (the Jewish people),
> but this newfangled Christianity is open to all peoples of all races and
as
> a such has opened the floodgates for an exclusive monothiestic religion to
> extend beyond the Middle East where the Jewish religion was limited to, to
> affect all the peoples under the Roman rule. This made Christianity far
> more dangerous to the state than the Jewish religion and so there was a
far
> stronger response to it.
> Also a stong central figure to the Christian religion was a certain
> political anti-authoritarian who (to quote Douglas Adams) "found himself
> nailed to a cross for saying how nice it would be if everyone got along
for
> a change". (And anyone noticed how the Romans got blamed for that?)
> So given that it had a lack of any check on it's possible growth and it's
> strong message challanging the religios and political status-quo,
> Christianity would have been far more a threat that the Jewish religion,
> thus it provoked and stronger (and sadly bloodier) response from those
> authorities that saw themselves threatened.
>
> That's my thoughts on the matter anyway.
>
> Marcus Sentius Accipiter.
>

> From: PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
> Subject: Byzantine Empire/Christianity
>
> Avete,
>
> It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance. As
> a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an adopt-a-God
> policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful not
> to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
> adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
> better for Rome. >SNIP<

IIRC The Romans would, when making seige, actually make prayers and promises
(make vows) to the god(s) protecting the city to entice them to abandon
those people and come to the Romans.

Vale, Lucius Equitius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byz Empire/Christianity thread
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:31:28 US/Central

Salvete

> IIRC The Romans would, when making seige, actually make prayers and promises
> (make vows) to the god(s) protecting the city to entice them to abandon
> those people and come to the Romans.

This is absolutely true. Macrobius (Saturnalia 3.9.6-11) refers to an
inscription bearing the evocation of the Roman general standing before the
walls of Carthage, inviting the gods and goddesses to leave the city before the
impending attack. There the general calls out, "Si deus di dea est cui populus
civitasque Carthaginiensis est in tutela, teque maxime, ille qui urbis huius
populique tutelam recepisti, precor venerorque veniamque a vobis peto ut vos
populum civitatemque Carthaginiensem deseratis, loca templa sacra urbemque
eorum relinquatis absque his abeatis, eique populo civitati metum formidinem
oblivionem iniciatis, proditique Romam ad me meosque veniatis, nostraque vobis
loca templa sacra urbs acceptior probatiorque sit, mihique populoque Romano
militibusque meis praepositi sitis ut sciamus intelligamusque. Si ita
feceritis, voveo vobis templa ludosque facturum."

I've also read that Italic cities would keep the name of their protector Gods
secret in order to prevent others from enticing them away.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AMERICA AUSTROIENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER ONE
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:48:08 -0700 (PDT)

"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
AMERICA AUSTROIENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER ONE

DESIGNATION OF PROVINCIAL MAILING LIST

I, Lucius Sicinius Drusus, Propraetor America
Austrorientalis, issue the following Edicta to
designate the official mail list of the Provincia.

1. The official mail list for America Austrorientalis
Provincia will be located at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Austrorientalis

2. All Provincial Edictae and Official Announcements
will be made on the Provincial list and the Nova Roma
main list.

3. The Provincial mail list shall be the offical
repository of all Provincial Edictae and
Announcements, until a web site with a Provincial
Tabularium is established.
=======================================================
Salvete Quirites,

I urge all Citizens residing in America
Austrorientalis, and any other citizens intrested in
the Provincia to sign up for this list.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

Salvete Propraetor,

Congratulations on your new position. I have long admired your messages on the Main List and your ability as a clear, concise and reasonable voice. Your comments often mirror my thoughts.

I would even go as far to say that you have my complete support and admiration. I look to you for objective comments and criticism before anyone else (except my Pater) at Nova Roma. Best of Luck!

Valete, Maximina Octavia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	Erik van der Heijden <e.vd.heijden@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:00:41 +0200

Avete Omnes!

First I must thank Pompeia Antonia for her excellent
contribution to this discussion.
Personally I find her message informative and pleasant to
read.

I agree with her that the Religio Romana was and hopefully
still is very tolerant towards other beliefs. I think this
tolerance is inherent to a polytheistic religious system.
There's always room for a God or Godess more or less, so to
say. This is a distinct difference from monotheistic
beliefs. In those kind of sytems there can be only one God.
Thus you can say that polytheistic religions are inclusive,
while monotheistic ones are exclusive.
This exclusivity can (and in my opinion will) cause
hostility towards other deities and their followers, wich is
clearly shown by the time christianity became the official
religion of the Empire when all other cults were being
persecuted.

By being exclusive, the Christians not only refused to
worship Roman Gods and Godesses, but also refused to pay
respect to the Emperor by making a small sacrifice. It was
this behaviour that branded the chrisitians as anti-social
or even dangerous to the welfare and existence of the Empire
and thus brought forth periods of oppression and
persecution.

To put it blundly: they brought it more or less on
themselves.

Well, this is about it. I just want to let you know this is
my first contribution to any discussion in Nova Roma. So if
I might have offended someone please let me know.
I just hope you consider my contribution of some value.

Valete,

Marcellus Decianus Batavius

PompeiaAntoniaCaesar schreef:

> Avete,
>
> It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance. As
> a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an adopt-a-God
> policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful not
> to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
> adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
> better for Rome. But there was one stipulation: you
> could belong to any cult you wished as long as you
> also belonged to the cult of Caesar. The Romans were
> very superstitious people and they felt they needed
> everyone's cooperation toward honoring the Gods for
> the good of Rome. Not honoring Them was bad luck and
> could weaken the empire. Christians were asked to
> make a sacrifice, just light a candle or make an
> offering of food to the Roman Gods which they refused
> to do. This was looked upon as treason and it was
> thought that this would jeopardize the welfare of the
> empire. Romans did not for the most part actively
> seek out Christians, and had Christians made this
> small gesture to the Roman Gods as other foreign cults
> did they would never have been singled out in the
> first place. By the early part of the first century
> AD most Romans didn't even know who the Christians
> were. Nero brought them to light by using them as a
> scapegoat for the devastating fires of Rome in 64 AD.
> It says much for Romans that this did not quell the
> rumors that Nero was to blame for the fires and many
> felt truly sorry for the persecuted Christians. Some
> Emperors persecuted Christians in an attempt to wipe
> out this strange and foreign cult that disregarded
> Roman Law not to mention that the Christians deeply
> resented Rome as did the Jews. I suppose that in a way
> Christians were looked upon as what we would consider
> today as anarchists. Other Emperors practiced
> leniency towards the Christians and gave instructions
> that they were not to be actively sought out and given
> every opportunity to absolve themselves of the
> accusations of heresy. It is more clemency than the
> Christian Church displayed toward non-Christians
> during the Spanish Inquisition. Christian persecution
> is really a very complex topic and pagan Rome has
> always been portrayed as the evil empire that tried to
> destroy Christianity which is really not the full
> story at all.
>
> Vale,
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
>
>
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>
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>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Century Points
From:	Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 07:41:05 -0700 (PDT)

Salve

What are century points and what are the used for?

Marcus Bianchius Antonius

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Subject:	[novaroma] EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM
From:	Matt Haase <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:18:29 -0500 (CDT)

EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS LACUUM MAGNORUM

I. Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus is hereby appointed Legatus for
the Regio Lacus Magni Orientalis, which is composed of the states
of Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky. M. Scipio Africanus
was selected based upon his service to the Sodalitas Militarium
and the recommendations of P. Ullerius Venator and Pompeia Cornelia.

II. This edict shall be published on the provincial web site,
http://romanrepublic.org/lacusmagni/

M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS, PROPRAETOR.
XIV ANTE DIEM KAL AUGUSTI MMDCCLIV AUC

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:26:11 US/Central

Salvete Marce Bianchi et alii

> What are century points and what are the used for?

In the ancient Comitia Centuriata, citizens were divided according to wealth.
The wealthier members were assigned to more advantageous centuriae (centuriae
with fewer members, thereby according more weight to each individual's vote).

Nova Roma retains the Comitia Centuriata, but does not recreate the ancient
plutocracy. Instead, we award century points to cives who actively support the
state, thereby attempting to replace the old plutocracy with a meritocracy.
Since we also give century points for length of citizenship, it also
establishes something of a gerontocracy.

You can see how century points are assigned by reading the following leges:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99211202.html

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:50:23 -0500

Salvete Omnes,

Matt Haase wrote:
>
> EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS LACUUM MAGNORUM
>
> I. Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus is hereby appointed Legatus for
> the Regio Lacus Magni Orientalis, which is composed of the states
> of Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky. M. Scipio Africanus
> was selected based upon his service to the Sodalitas Militarium
> and the recommendations of P. Ullerius Venator and Pompeia Cornelia.
>
> II. This edict shall be published on the provincial web site,
> http://romanrepublic.org/lacusmagni/
>
> M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS, PROPRAETOR.
> XIV ANTE DIEM KAL AUGUSTI MMDCCLIV AUC
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>

I should like to welcome my new fellow Legate!

Provincia Lucus Magni has a growing population,
which will be well served by M. Scipio Africanus.

[This elder Legate (Venator) finally has a vehicle
capable of getting him out of town, so he can do more!]

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives et Paterfamilias
Qu�stor, Legate et Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http:// www.river-wood-samfelag.org
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/
The Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

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Subject:	Re(2): [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	"Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:21:42 -0400

Avete!

I have often wondered whether the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem
and the subsequent expulsion by the Romans of the Jews from Judea in 70
C.E. might not have occurred if only the Jews had avoided direct
confrontation with Rome by paying their taxes, if not happily, then
willingly. The Romans had no intentions of dissuading the Jews from their
religion, or even inducing them to worship the Roman gods and goddesses;
indeed, the Jews were treated favorably by Rome and their religion
tolerated and even respected. Yet they could not tolerate the yoke of
Roman rule.

Vale,
Claudia Martia

novaroma@-------- writes:
>Avete Omnes!
>
>First I must thank Pompeia Antonia for her excellent
>contribution to this discussion.
>Personally I find her message informative and pleasant to
>read.
>
>I agree with her that the Religio Romana was and hopefully
>still is very tolerant towards other beliefs. I think this
>tolerance is inherent to a polytheistic religious system.
>There's always room for a God or Godess more or less, so to
>say. This is a distinct difference from monotheistic
>beliefs. In those kind of sytems there can be only one God.
>Thus you can say that polytheistic religions are inclusive,
>while monotheistic ones are exclusive.
>This exclusivity can (and in my opinion will) cause
>hostility towards other deities and their followers, wich is
>clearly shown by the time christianity became the official
>religion of the Empire when all other cults were being
>persecuted.
>
>By being exclusive, the Christians not only refused to
>worship Roman Gods and Godesses, but also refused to pay
>respect to the Emperor by making a small sacrifice. It was
>this behaviour that branded the chrisitians as anti-social
>or even dangerous to the welfare and existence of the Empire
>and thus brought forth periods of oppression and
>persecution.
>
>To put it blundly: they brought it more or less on
>themselves.
>
>Well, this is about it. I just want to let you know this is
>my first contribution to any discussion in Nova Roma. So if
>I might have offended someone please let me know.
>I just hope you consider my contribution of some value.
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcellus Decianus Batavius
>
>
>PompeiaAntoniaCaesar schreef:
>
>> Avete,
>>
>> It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance. As
>> a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an adopt-a-God
>> policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful not
>> to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
>> adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
>> better for Rome. But there was one stipulation: you
>> could belong to any cult you wished as long as you
>> also belonged to the cult of Caesar. The Romans were
>> very superstitious people and they felt they needed
>> everyone's cooperation toward honoring the Gods for
>> the good of Rome. Not honoring Them was bad luck and
>> could weaken the empire. Christians were asked to
>> make a sacrifice, just light a candle or make an
>> offering of food to the Roman Gods which they refused
>> to do. This was looked upon as treason and it was
>> thought that this would jeopardize the welfare of the
>> empire. Romans did not for the most part actively
>> seek out Christians, and had Christians made this
>> small gesture to the Roman Gods as other foreign cults
>> did they would never have been singled out in the
>> first place. By the early part of the first century
>> AD most Romans didn't even know who the Christians
>> were. Nero brought them to light by using them as a
>> scapegoat for the devastating fires of Rome in 64 AD.
>> It says much for Romans that this did not quell the
>> rumors that Nero was to blame for the fires and many
>> felt truly sorry for the persecuted Christians. Some
>> Emperors persecuted Christians in an attempt to wipe
>> out this strange and foreign cult that disregarded
>> Roman Law not to mention that the Christians deeply
>> resented Rome as did the Jews. I suppose that in a way
>> Christians were looked upon as what we would consider
>> today as anarchists. Other Emperors practiced
>> leniency towards the Christians and gave instructions
>> that they were not to be actively sought out and given
>> every opportunity to absolve themselves of the
>> accusations of heresy. It is more clemency than the
>> Christian Church displayed toward non-Christians
>> during the Spanish Inquisition. Christian persecution
>> is really a very complex topic and pagan Rome has
>> always been portrayed as the evil empire that tried to
>> destroy Christianity which is really not the full
>> story at all.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
>> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>> of Service.
>>
>>
>>
>******************************************************************************
>>
>> Dit bericht is gecontroleerd op virussen en virusvrij
>> verzonden.
>>
>>
>>
>******************************************************************************
>
>
>*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
>
>De disclaimer van e-mail van de gemeente Eindhoven vindt u op
>http://www.eindhoven.nl/disclaimer.htm
>
>Dit bericht is gecontroleerd op virussen en virusvrij verzonden.
>
>*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Alqueva petition
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 17:18:31 +0100

Salvete

For your information:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Alqueva/petition.html

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Propraetor Lusitaniae

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Site enhancement.
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:02:53 US/Central

Salve Curator Octavi

> I have added a bold and exciting new feature to the site.
>
> You can edit your home page address and email address, and, if you
> are paterfamilias or materfamilias, edit your gens parameters.

This is excellent. I wonder if extending this feature to allow cives to
modify/correct their full contact information (address, phone #, &c.) might not
be helpful to the censores.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Site enhancement.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:16:00 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Tite Labiene,

> This is excellent. I wonder if extending this feature to allow cives to
> modify/correct their full contact information (address, phone #, &c.)
> might not be helpful to the censores.

I can easily add it, if the censores want to give citizens the right
to edit that information.

(But before permitting display of street address I'll need to
verify that my security precautions are adequate, that it is not
possible to break into someone else's account).

Vale, Octavius.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Alqueva petition
From:	"Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:27:42 -0400

Salvete!

I have signed your petition, Antonius Gryllus, and have also forwarded it
to the "Public Forum" where I work. Most of my fellow workers are
barbarians, but they may be of great assistance in this noble cause.
Thank you for forwarding this to me!

Valete,
Claudia Martia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Site enhancement.
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:06:59 -0500

Salve Marcus Octavius,

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salvete Cives,
>
> I have added a bold and exciting new feature to the site.
>
> After logging (excision)
>
> Valete, Octavius.
>
> ---
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

I have taken advantage of this new feature.

Bravo!
Well done.

If anyone out there has been trying to contact me
through the Album Civum, that e-mail caontact is
now accurate.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives et Paterfamilias
Qu�stor, Legate et Dominus Sodalis
Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/
The Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Site enhancement.
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:16:50 -0000

Salve Marce Octavi,

...and thanks for the excellent addition to the NR site. One
question: Even though my E-mail addy is corrent, my citizen profile
shows it as "private". I have no desire that it be private. How can
that be changed?

And please don't take this as a "thanks, but". Your excellent work
is greatly appreciated.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Upcoming Vote
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:41:21 -0400

Salvete

I intend to call the Comitia Centuriata to a vote in the next week or two.
This is a preliminary call, solely with the intention of bringing the rules
of the Comitia up to date and in line with those used by the Comitia Populi
and Comitia Plebis. Some Constitutional amendments will be on the agenda
later this year (hopefully), and I think it's wise to have the Comitia's
rules updated before that happens. In addition, there is a relatively minor
amendment to the privacy law, enabling provincial governors to get
information they need to contact citizens within their provincia.

Here is the text of the first proposed lex. It is almost exactly the same as
those enacted earlier for the other two Comitia, with minor changes here and
there to reflect the different make-up of the Comitia Centuriata.

-----

LEX VEDIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM CENTURIATORUM

I. The Lex Vedia de Ratione Eligium and Lex Vedia de Ratione Centuriatorum
Comitiorum are hereby rescinded as they apply to the election of magistrates
and the voting of leges by the Comitia Centuriata. This Lex Vedia de Ratione
Comitiorum Centuriatorum is hereby enacted to define the procedures by which
the Comitia Centuriata shall conduct the business of electing magistrates
and voting on leges.

II. Calling the Comitia to Order.
Either a Consul or Praetor may, as described in the Constitution, call the
Comitia to order, to hold a vote on a lex or leges, or to hold an election.
The magistrate who calls the Comitia to order shall be referred to herein as
the presiding magistrate.

A. This shall be done by making a public announcement announcing the call
in those public fora which shall have been designated for such purpose, in
which must be included:

1. The names of candidates for office and the office for which they are
running (when the Comitia is being called for an election),

2. The full text of any leges which are being voted on (when the Comitia
is being called to legislate),

3. The dates when the members of the Comitia shall begin and finish
voting,

4. Any special instructions that pertain to the mechanics of the vote,
if any.

B. The presiding magistrate shall have the responsibility for taking all
reasonable precautions to ensure that candidates for a vote hold whatever
qualifications are required by law. The Censors shall assist in such efforts
as to the best of their ability.

III. Timing of the vote.
A. The edictum containing the call to vote must be issued at least 120
hours (5 days) prior to the start of the vote. This period shall be known as
the Contio, and shall be used for formal discussion of the issues and/or
candidates before the People for vote.

B. During the Contio, the following conditions shall apply:

1. Those Constitutionally empowered to do so may exercise their powers
of intercessio or nuntiatio.

a. The exercise of intercessio shall cancel the vote or election
outright, although another call with the same items may be made at a later
date.

b. The exercise of nuntiatio shall extend the Contio, postponing the
start and end dates of the voting period by 24 hours, during which time
nuntiatio may again be exercised.

c. Should the exercise of nuntatio cause the voting period to move
such that it conflicts with calendarical restrictions as defined by the
Collegium Pontificum, the presiding magistrate may change or extend the
dates of the vote and/or contio at his discretion.

2. A member of the Collegium Augurum shall be invited by the presiding
magistrate to seek favorable auspices for the conduct of the vote, subject
to those rules and regulations the Collegium Augurum shall set forth by
decreta. Should the presiding magistrate himself be a member of the
Collegium Augurum, he may take the auspices for the vote himself.

C. The period between the start and end of the voting must last no less
than 192 hours (8 days).

D. The ability to vote during the voting period may be impacted and/or
suspended due to calendrical issues as enacted by decreta of the Collegium
Pontificum.

E. The rogatores shall tally the vote and shall deliver the results to the
presiding magistrate within 48 hours of the close of the voting period.

F. The presiding magistrate shall announce the results of the vote within
24 hours of receiving the results from the rogatores, in at least the same
venues as the original announcement calling the vote was published.

IV. Voting procedures.
A. The censors shall issue to each citizen a unique voter identification
code. This code shall be used to maintain anonymity in the voting process,
and to minimize the possibility of vote fraud. In a timely fashion prior to
the a vote, the censors shall make available to the rogatores a list of
valid voter identification codes and the centuries with which they are
associated. The rogatores shall not have access to the names of the citizens
associated with particular voter identification codes.

B. In consultation with the rogatores, the curator araneum shall make
available a cista; a secure web-based form to allow citizens to vote
directly through the official Nova Roma web site. This form shall record the
voter identification number and desired vote(s) of the individual. The
information thus collected will either be forwarded to the rogatores as it
is gathered, or at the end of the process, at their discretion. Alternative
methods of voting may be enacted by other legislation as required.

C. Each Citizen shall have the opportunity to vote for a single candidate
for each office for which a vacancy exists, regardless of the number of
vacancies within a given magistracy. Citizens may cast a vote for a
candidate not listed on the ballot, or may waive their right to cast a vote
for a given magistracy. Once cast, no vote may be altered, even with the
correct voter identification code. Should multiple votes be registered with
the same voter identification code, only the first one recorded shall be
used when tallying the vote.

V. Procedures for counting votes.
A. Votes shall be counted by centuries.

1. In the case of a magisterial election, each century shall cast a
number of votes equal to the number of vacancies for the magistracy in
question. Votes shall be assigned to those candidates who received votes by
members of the century, with those candidates receiving the most valid
individual votes receiving the century's vote first, then working down in
descending order until all the century's votes have been assigned.

EXAMPLE: Four candidates are running for Consul. Each century casts two
votes, because there are two vacant positions. In century III, there are 26
votes for candidate A, 32 votes for candidate B, 2 votes for candidate C,
and 13 votes for candidate D. The century's two votes are cast for
candidates A and B, since they received the two highest vote-totals within
the century.

2. In the case of a vote on a lex, each century shall vote in favor of
the lex if a majority of the votes received by members of the century are in
favor. Otherwise, the century shall be considered to have voted against the
proposed lex.

3. Should a tie occur within a given century, the winner shall be the
candidate who is a paterfamilias or materfamilias, or if such shall not
decide the issue, the winner shall be decided by lot. The rogatores may
decide how such decisions by lot shall be made in a fair manner.

B. A vote or election shall be decided by a majority of the centuries.

1. In the case of a magisterial election, candidates must receive votes from
at least 97 of the 193 centuries in order to win.

a. Should not enough candidates receive votes from at least 97 of the 193
centuries to fill all vacancies, a new election shall be called within 30
days from the end of the current election.

b. Should more candidates receive votes from at least 97 of the 193
centuries than there are vacancies, the winner shall be the candidate who is
a paterfamilias or materfamilias, or if such shall not decide the issue, the
winner shall be decided by lot. The rogatores may decide how such decisions
by lot shall be made in a fair manner.

2. In the case of a vote on a lex, 97 of the 193 centuries must vote in
favor for the lex to be adopted.

C. Votes may be tallied by automated means should the rogatores determine
such is preferable to, and at least as accurate as, a manual count.

D. Only the aggregate votes of the centuries shall be delivered to the
presiding magistrate; the votes of individual citizens shall be secret.

-----

In addition, there is a "housekeeping" lex that many of the provincial
governors would like to see enacted. It is an amendment to the privacy lex,
allowing the provincial governors to make requests for information on
citizens within their provincia. Apparently the current lex is vague on
whether or not governors and their legati can do so; this would make such
permission explicit.

-----

LEX VEDIA DE PRIVATUS REBUS

The Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus is hereby amended to include the
following:

"Provincial governors, or their lawfully appointed assistants, may receive
confidential information, but only relating to those citizens within their
provincia, in accordance with the restrictions and procedures governing
release of such information for magistrates."

-----

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:56:50 -0700 (PDT)

Congratulations, L. Sicini Druse!

I am sure that you will make a good work as propraetor.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Site enhancement.
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:00:08 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, M. Octavi Germanice.

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> wrote:
>
> Salvete Cives,
>
> I have added a bold and exciting new feature to the site.
>
> After logging in with a password from your Album Civium page
> (linked to from <URL:http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view> ), you
> can then customize your personal and gens information at
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/prefs
>
> You can edit your home page address and email address, and, if you
> are paterfamilias or materfamilias, edit your gens parameters.

Congratulations! An extremely good idea.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Alqueva petition
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:18:48 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, A. Grylle Graece.

--- Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> For your information:
> http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Alqueva/petition.html

I have signed the petition and I have forwarded it to the Hispania
mailing list. I hope this is correct (I am not a Portuguese citizen).

=====
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Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Christain Beliefs
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:34:29 -0400 (EDT)

Master Caesar;

I would ask that your determinations regarding your beliefs in regard to
Christianity be modified with reference to your beliefs alone.

I am a Christain, and I find no problem whatsoever in recognizing the
beliefs of those around me in the Gods Of Rome. The beliefs of those
around me who profess a belief in the Gods of Rome, do not depress me,
nor do they force me from my own individual beliefs. I find no problem
in recognizing the Gods of Rome in thier eyes, because it is to my mind
that thier faith in the Gods of Rome again gives rise to thier influence
in this world. There are hundreds of Christain Sects, and probably
thousands of pagan sects no two being exactly alike, no two beliefs
being totally determinate. Will you argue to me the difference of the
Valentinian Gnostics from the Sethians of the old world, both Christian
Sects but with very strong disagreements between them?

In my individual beliefs, I hold the Christain God supreme. However, I
realize that for a variety of reasons those around me have beliefs which
are foriegn to mine. I have been welcomed here in Nova Roma by those
very people, given many honors by those very people, as well as many
privaledges. In this place, I honor the Roman Religion, as the religion
supreme here in Nova Roma. I have no problem in being respectful of
another's beliefs, and showing that respect in all the ways that I may
have at my command.

However, no-one knows what is in my heart and mind, and no-one knows how
I deal with my faith, and since it is not required to wear one's faith
on one's arm like a past symbol of superiority, OR a past symbol of
shame to all others, I do not choose to do so.

The action or verbalization of how others should think and believe have
resulted in the worldly actions of such horror and animal-like behavior
on the part of religious fanatics throughout history that it is
sufficient, I believe, to give rise to the basic consideration of live
and let live. I should think that the Crusaders Slaughter of Christains
in Jeruselum during the period of the Crusades -- "until the blood of
Christains ran fetlock deep in the streets," should be sufficient to
cause some thought on the subject This because the Christain invaders
could not tell a Christian from a Pagan in thier eastern garments, and
did not scruple to ask. The shipment of Jews from Spain, during "The
Inquisition" to other countries around the Mediterranean in ships
deliberately designed to sink before reaching their destination is
another such of two very small considerations in the religious history
of the Christain Church. These stories are supplemented by perhaps
lesser stories of disappointment by agressive or apathetic Christains
who have not met the needs of potential believers, or have overstepped
by large measure, the bounds of decency and polite behavior. Both such
occurances have happened to me and many others here in Nova Roma, on
many occasions, so I come to my beliefs in a long and roundabout way,
with many detours, wrong turns, and mistaken ideas, finally realizing
that tolerance, love of one's fellow man, and doing to others that which
you would have done unto you, is pretty much an international venue for
geting along. My travels around this old planet, having pretty much
proved that set of ideas to me. Religious beliefs are personal, and
have little place for me in public affiliations.

While those true facts do not inhibit my Christain beliefs, they do
deeply involve my feelings towards those who are "good" people, but who
believe differently than I do.

Do NOT, I pray, think yourself and your beliefs to be the only way along
the road of life, for there are many such roads that lead to religious
saisfaction, and as my friend Senator Maximus has so pungently written
about the jackel-headed god, "no-one knows" exactly what one will meet
on the far side of the River.

There is active still, although small and secret at the moment, a cell
of those in Nova Roma who wish to expel the Christains within NR. It
has no strength as yet and has been in abeyance for sometime. The main
people who are a part of this belief are clever, intelligent, and quite
ruthless in thier intentions. It is, of course, my hope that they will
never have the strength to leave thier secret place. The Consuls are
aware of the situation, as I have notified them, and I believe that the
Consuls and most of the Senate believe as I do that religous tolerance
is mandatory in Nova Roma from both sides of the fence. Neither I, nor
the Consuls, can name these citizens as there is no proof, except for
thier rare private statements, with no witness willng to stand forth,
which have been heard by myself and some Senior Magistrates. Such must
be left at that for the moment.

It s indeed a strange thing that one man or woman, cannot understand
that another can believe as he or she wishes without feeling the strong
need to interfere, in any one of many different ways. For those who
feel such, I am extremely sorry, but I issue this commentary. I would
not advise anyone to presume to address me on how I should believe, and
I abhor any attempt to do so with anyone else.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Christain Beliefs
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 21:52:59 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Master Caesar;

> I am a Christain, and I find no problem whatsoever in recognizing
the
> beliefs of those around me in the Gods Of Rome. The beliefs of
those
> around me who profess a belief in the Gods of Rome, do not depress
me,
> nor do they force me from my own individual beliefs.
>
> In my individual beliefs, I hold the Christain God supreme.
However, I
> realize that for a variety of reasons those around me have beliefs
which
> are foriegn to mine. I have been welcomed here in Nova Roma by
those
> very people, given many honors by those very people, as well as many
> privaledges. In this place, I honor the Roman Religion, as the
religion
> supreme here in Nova Roma. I have no problem in being respectful of
> another's beliefs, and showing that respect in all the ways that I
may
> have at my command.
>
> ...finally realizing
> that tolerance, love of one's fellow man, and doing to others that
which
> you would have done unto you, is pretty much an international venue
for
> geting along. My travels around this old planet, having pretty much
> proved that set of ideas to me. Religious beliefs are personal, and
> have little place for me in public affiliations.
>
> While those true facts do not inhibit my Christain beliefs, they do
> deeply involve my feelings towards those who are "good" people, but
who
> believe differently than I do.
>
> It s indeed a strange thing that one man or woman, cannot understand
> that another can believe as he or she wishes without feeling the
strong
> need to interfere, in any one of many different ways. For those who
> feel such, I am extremely sorry, but I issue this commentary. I
would
> not advise anyone to presume to address me on how I should believe,
and
> I abhor any attempt to do so with anyone else.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
Salvete,

As a fellow Christian, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Marcus - you
state your case plainly and compellingly. Attempts to force one's
religious beliefs on another are plainly foredoomed to failure, in
most cases. I will not force my beliefs on others, nor suffer them to
force theirs on me. Tolerance and respect should be our watchwords,
especially for something as personal as one's religion.

Valete,

R Palaeologvs

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 23:18:05 +0200

Salve Illustrus Propraetor L. Sicini Druse!

I welcome You as a collegue and congratulate You to have become Propraetor
of America Austroorientalis! I am sure that You will do a excellent job! I
hope You will have time to continue to be a voice of insight, balance and
tolerance here at the main Forum of Nova Roma.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rome - Byzantium/slight correction:-)
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:46:56 -0700 (PDT)

> > >>Do not forget the Jews. They were also
> Monothesists, who refused
> to
> > take part in the Imperial Cult. They only
> worshiped Yaweh, and
> refused

Salvete,
I have studied and lived among those in the
Jewish faith for some time.. And have learned that
"Yaweh" is an attempt of pronounsing their God's name.
The name is represented in the torah, but no one is
sure of the correct pronunciation. It is said that it
may just be the sound of the first breath taken by
Adam.
Anyway... I would like to respectfully add that Hashem
would be how those within the Jewish faith would call
their god. I know that this is off topic as well as a
bit nitpicky of me.. So, forgive...

Valete, A. Corvus Septimius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byz Empire/Christianity thread
From:	"Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:57:47 -0400

novaroma@-------- writes:
>Salvete,
>
>For an informative read on this subject, try,
>
>JUDEOPHOBIA, by Peter Schafer
>Harvard Univ. Press, 1997
>ISBN 0-674-48778-8
>
>As a side note for anyone interested in ancient race relations try.
>
>BEFORE COLOR PREJUDICE, by Frrank M. Snowden jr.
>Harvard Univ. Press.1983
>ISBN 0-674-06381-3
>
>
>> From: "Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)"
><mark.devry@-------->
>> Subject: Re: Rome - Byzantium
>>
>> L. Sicinius Drusus asked this question:
>>
>> >>Do not forget the Jews. They were also Monothesists, who refused to
>> take part in the Imperial Cult. They only worshiped Yaweh, and refused
>> to take part in the rites of the Roman Religio, and they did NOT
>> suffer the ammount of persecution that the Christians did. Why?<<
>>
>>
>> [Mark Sayz] If I may take a stab at the answer to this question, the
>Jewish
>> religion was (and is) based to a large extent on race (the Jewish
>people),
>> but this newfangled Christianity is open to all peoples of all races and
>as
>> a such has opened the floodgates for an exclusive monothiestic religion
>to
>> extend beyond the Middle East where the Jewish religion was limited to,
>to
>> affect all the peoples under the Roman rule. This made Christianity far
>> more dangerous to the state than the Jewish religion and so there was a
>far
>> stronger response to it.
>> Also a stong central figure to the Christian religion was a certain
>> political anti-authoritarian who (to quote Douglas Adams) "found himself
>> nailed to a cross for saying how nice it would be if everyone got along
>for
>> a change". (And anyone noticed how the Romans got blamed for that?)
>> So given that it had a lack of any check on it's possible growth and
>it's
>> strong message challanging the religios and political status-quo,
>> Christianity would have been far more a threat that the Jewish religion,
>> thus it provoked and stronger (and sadly bloodier) response from those
>> authorities that saw themselves threatened.
>>
>> That's my thoughts on the matter anyway.
>>
>> Marcus Sentius Accipiter.
>>
>
>
>> From: PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
>> Subject: Byzantine Empire/Christianity
>>
>> Avete,
>>
>> It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance. As
>> a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an adopt-a-God
>> policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful not
>> to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
>> adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
>> better for Rome. >SNIP<
>
>IIRC The Romans would, when making seige, actually make prayers and
>promises
>(make vows) to the god(s) protecting the city to entice them to abandon
>those people and come to the Romans.
>
>Vale, Lucius Equitius
>

Avete!

I am strongly inclined to agree with Marcus Sentius that the religion of
the Jews was accorded much respect by the Romans, who also feared the God
of the Jews (on his deathbed, Titus Imperator claimed that the Jewish God
was punishing him for the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem). The
Jewish religion was not evangelical as the new Christian religion was, and
posed no political threat to the Romans until the time of Tiberius, when
various Judean fringe groups such as the Zealots terrorized the Romans in
an effort to drive them out of Judea. I would like to correct Marcus
Sentius on one point, however: it is only until very recently that the
Romans were made responsible for the death of Jesus: for almost 1900
years, the blame was placed directly on the Jews, and the Romans regarded
as merely an instrument of their will.
>

Vale,
Claudia Martia
>
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>
>

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