Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoricium XX about the inclusion of Iceland/Islandica into Thule as Regio Islandica and the opening of the post as Prolegatus for application
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 01:50:23 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium XX about the inclusion of Iceland/Islandica into
Thule as Regio Islandica and the opening of the post as Prolegatus for
application

Salvete Omnes!

It is a great pleasure for me, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, to make the
annoncement of the inclusion of Iceland into Provincia Thule and the
opening of the position within Provincia Thule as Prolegatus Regionis
Islandica for application.

I. The Senate of Nova Roma have taken the decision to include Iceland into
Provincia Thule (The Nordic Countries).

The decision of the Senate was proclaimed on the18th of July:

>ITEM I. INCLUSION OF ICELAND IN THULE PROVINCIA; PASSED; 14 For, 0 Against
>PC; UTI ROGAS
>MCJ; UTI ROGAS
>LCSF; UTI ROGAS
>LEC; UTI ROGAS
>QFM; UTI ROGA; A logical inclusion.; Rome would have done the same.
>AGG; UTI ROGAS
>AICPM; UTI ROGAS
>DIPI; UTI ROGAS
>MII; UTI ROGAS
>TLF; UTI ROGAS
>MMA; UTI ROGAS; Marcus Audens casts a YES vote for this item in support
>the ProPraetor of the Provincia >Thule. ProPraetor Quintillianus is a
>careful and precise administrator, and his recommendation in this case
>makes a >great deal of sense. I applaud his bringing this item to the
>Senate's attention.
>MOG; UTI ROGAS
>LSAO; UTI ROGAS
>FVG; UTI ROGAS

II. I have decided to include Iceland/Islandica into Provincia Thule (The
Nordic Countries) as Regio Islandica according to the decision of the
Senate of Nova Roma.

III. I hereby proclaim that the "Edictum Propraetoricium VII about the
Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of Thule" is hereby
amended to include the following changes and additions:

I. For administrative purposes the Provincia of Thule will be divided into
five Regiones. Each Regio will be assigned a Legatus, who will deal with
the day-to-day operations of their Regiones. Please see below for
information on each of the Regiones, including the responsibilities of the
Legati, and precise geographicalborders. The details of the administrative
system by which the Provincia will adopt may also be viewed.

The Provincia of Thule will be divided, for administrative purposes, into
five Regiones:

5. Regio Islandica (Islandica), 1 civi

B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area.

5. ISLANDICA

Legatus Regionis Islandica, (Legate of the Icelandic Region)
Area = equivalent to Iceland.

IV. I also hereby open the post as Prolegatus Regionis Islandica
(Provisional Legati on Trial of the Icelandic Region); accordning to
"Edictum Propraetoricium VII about the Approved Regula (Charter) for the
Administration of Thule" for application to any Nova Roman citizen living
on Regio Islandica.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Christain Beliefs
From:	Livia Julia Aenea Apollonia <ms_livia_julia@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 20:24:59 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

I too am a Christian and wholeheartedly agree with you
both. I remain respecting others religious beliefs, be

what they may. I expect the same with my belief, that
others be respectful of it.

Valete,
Livia Aenea Apollonia Julia
--- radams36@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> > Master Caesar;
>
> > I am a Christain, and I find no problem whatsoever
> in recognizing
> the
> > beliefs of those around me in the Gods Of Rome.
> The beliefs of
> those
> > around me who profess a belief in the Gods of
> Rome, do not depress
> me,
> > nor do they force me from my own individual
> beliefs.
> >
> > In my individual beliefs, I hold the Christain God
> supreme.
> However, I
> > realize that for a variety of reasons those around
> me have beliefs
> which
> > are foriegn to mine. I have been welcomed here in
> Nova Roma by
> those
> > very people, given many honors by those very
> people, as well as many
> > privaledges. In this place, I honor the Roman
> Religion, as the
> religion
> > supreme here in Nova Roma. I have no problem in
> being respectful of
> > another's beliefs, and showing that respect in all
> the ways that I
> may
> > have at my command.
> >
> > ...finally realizing
> > that tolerance, love of one's fellow man, and
> doing to others that
> which
> > you would have done unto you, is pretty much an
> international venue
> for
> > geting along. My travels around this old planet,
> having pretty much
> > proved that set of ideas to me. Religious beliefs
> are personal, and
> > have little place for me in public affiliations.
> >
> > While those true facts do not inhibit my Christain
> beliefs, they do
> > deeply involve my feelings towards those who are
> "good" people, but
> who
> > believe differently than I do.
> >
> > It s indeed a strange thing that one man or woman,
> cannot understand
> > that another can believe as he or she wishes
> without feeling the
> strong
> > need to interfere, in any one of many different
> ways. For those who
> > feel such, I am extremely sorry, but I issue this
> commentary. I
> would
> > not advise anyone to presume to address me on how
> I should believe,
> and
> > I abhor any attempt to do so with anyone else.
> >
> > Respectfully;
> > Marcus Audens
> >
> Salvete,
>
> As a fellow Christian, I agree with you
> wholeheartedly, Marcus - you
> state your case plainly and compellingly. Attempts
> to force one's
> religious beliefs on another are plainly foredoomed
> to failure, in
> most cases. I will not force my beliefs on others,
> nor suffer them to
> force theirs on me. Tolerance and respect should be
> our watchwords,
> especially for something as personal as one's
> religion.
>
> Valete,
>
> R Palaeologvs
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] television programs
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 20:44:59 -0700 (PDT)

Avete Omnes,

Just wanted to let everyone know that Friday, July 20
there will be a one hour program on Julius Caesar on
Arts and Entertainment's classroom series. Here in
southern California it's on at 7:00 a.m.. Also, all
next week, July 23-27, A & E's classroom series will
be chronicling 5 of the Roman Emperors; Augustus,
Nero, Hadrian, Constantine and Justinian.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Christian beliefs
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 21:02:00 -0700 (PDT)

Avete,

I was pleasantly surprised to find that Nova Roma has
so many Christians among it's cives. Even though I'm
not a Christian it makes me admire and respect Nova
Roma even more knowing that cives from all religious
backgrounds respond to our message. All should be
welcome and made to feel welcome to our nation. I
sincerely hope that there is no movement to expel
religious sects outside the Religio Romano from Nova
Roma for as long as individuals of other faiths
exhibit respect toward the state religion we certainly
owe them the same respect.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Byz. Christianity Thread
From:	gkbagne@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:17:23 -0000

>From Lepella, To All Salvete!
I believe one of the reasons Early Christians ran into trouble with
the Roman Empire was economic. Imagine what today's conservative
comentators would say about a group that offered all the social
services to which a citizen is entitled to noncitizens; disability
help, survivors' benifits, health care and free food. Those are the
services the early church provided for its members.
In the ancient world, a cities population could only grow so much
before the transportation cost of bringing in food from far away made
the price of food prohibitive to the comon laborer and tradesman.
The middle-eastern theocracies handled this as a comand economy, the
Greek city-states established colony cities, but in Rome patrons,
politicians and later the state brought in subsidised foodstuffs for
citizens. Then in comes these Christian lowlifes with a strong
charitable ethic (at least charitable to their own) and they're able
to compete with citizens in the city. If their family doesn't have
illustrious ancestors to revere, they have saints. If their families
father is too poor to help, they have their priest-as-father. They
are outside the political patron system because their bishops fill
that function. When Constantine wanted to ditch all constraints from
the Roman beuracracy and Senate, he was able to set up on his own by
using the bishops and their organization to run his new city. Le
Voile, a middle-eastern theocracy! And Constantine wasn't even
Christian!
This is why I don't consider Byzantium a continuation of Rome but
rather a successor.
Be Well! (imperative case)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 03:31:22 -0700 (PDT)

> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:51:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: PompeiaAntoniaCaesar
> <europamoon7@-------->
> Subject: Byzantine Empire/Christianity
>
> Avete,
>
> It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance.
> As
> a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an
> adopt-a-God
> policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful
> not
> to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
> adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
> better for Rome. But there was one stipulation: you
> could belong to any cult you wished as long as you
> also belonged to the cult of Caesar. The Romans
> were
> very superstitious people and they felt they needed
> everyone's cooperation toward honoring the Gods for
> the good of Rome. Not honoring Them was bad luck
> and
> could weaken the empire. Christians were asked to
> make a sacrifice, just light a candle or make an
> offering of food to the Roman Gods which they
> refused
> to do. This was looked upon as treason and it was
> thought that this would jeopardize the welfare of
> the
> empire. Romans did not for the most part actively
> seek out Christians, and had Christians made this
> small gesture to the Roman Gods as other foreign
> cults
> did they would never have been singled out in the
> first place. By the early part of the first century
> AD most Romans didn't even know who the Christians
> were. Nero brought them to light by using them as a
> scapegoat for the devastating fires of Rome in 64
> AD.
> It says much for Romans that this did not quell the
> rumors that Nero was to blame for the fires and many
> felt truly sorry for the persecuted Christians.
> Some
> Emperors persecuted Christians in an attempt to wipe
> out this strange and foreign cult that disregarded
> Roman Law not to mention that the Christians deeply
> resented Rome as did the Jews. I suppose that in a
> way
> Christians were looked upon as what we would
> consider
> today as anarchists. Other Emperors practiced
> leniency towards the Christians and gave
> instructions
> that they were not to be actively sought out and
> given
> every opportunity to absolve themselves of the
> accusations of heresy. It is more clemency than the
> Christian Church displayed toward non-Christians
> during the Spanish Inquisition. Christian
> persecution
> is really a very complex topic and pagan Rome has
> always been portrayed as the evil empire that tried
> to
> destroy Christianity which is really not the full
> story at all.
>
> Vale,
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesar

Very good post and quite interesting as well as
thought-provoking.

Another issue that should be added to this mix is that
(I hope there's no "Cult of Caesar" types with hungry
lions around) is that what people of power do is not
always reflective of the people/nation. People with
power have been known to abuse their power. An
example: someone earlier in this discussion (my
apologies for not having the name) mentioned that
persecuting Christians was un-Roman. True, but it
happened -- for whatever reason. Perhaps it was
because they needed a scapegoat (see above), they
needed a show for the people at the coliseums, etc.,
and the Christians were just available (as were the
Jews in the 1930s and 40s).

Ideas?

Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Christian beliefs
From:	JSmithCSA@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:43:25 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> Avete,
>
> I was pleasantly surprised to find that Nova Roma has
> so many Christians among it's cives. Even though I'm
> not a Christian it makes me admire and respect Nova
> Roma even more knowing that cives from all religious
> backgrounds respond to our message. All should be
> welcome and made to feel welcome to our nation. I
> sincerely hope that there is no movement to expel
> religious sects outside the Religio Romano from Nova
> Roma for as long as individuals of other faiths
> exhibit respect toward the state religion we certainly
> owe them the same respect.
>
> Vale,
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesar

Salve Pompeia Antonia Caesar,

Thank you for your comments on Christianity and other faiths in
NovaRoma. It is unfortunate that neither the senate nor the pontiffs
agree with you, having just refused the formation of a Sodalitas to
study (I say again, STUDY, not practice) Judaism during the Roman-era
(having previously removed the study of Roman-era Christianity during
the staffing process). Although other faiths are considered "welcome
visitors" by the constitution, we are not yet allowed to organize
ourselves to study the Roman-era history of our faiths in NovaRoma.
I hope someday true freedom of religion will be allowed here.

Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Alqueva petition
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:50:35 -0000

Salvete omnes

I'd like to thank all of you who have read the petition, both those
who signed and those who have not, for I'm sure that either option
was followed in good faith and worry for the welfare not only of the
historical heritage of the Humanity, but also for the welfare of the
people that lives in the south of Portugal. Gratias multas vobis ago.

Dii vos bene ament
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Propraetor Lusitaniae

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Alqueva petition
From:	JSmithCSA@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:37:29 -0000

Salve,

> I'd like to thank all of you who have read the petition, both those
> who signed and those who have not, for I'm sure that either option
> was followed in good faith and worry for the welfare not only of
the
> historical heritage of the Humanity, but also for the welfare of
the
> people that lives in the south of Portugal. Gratias multas vobis
ago.
>
> Dii vos bene ament
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> Propraetor Lusitaniae

Thank you for posting this. I was off the main list when the first
post was made, so I missed it. I have gone back and signed.

Last week I was in Hohehfels, Germany, where they were in the process
of removing a Roman limes road and paving it. Historical sites are
vanishing before our eyes.

Dalmaticus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Christian beliefs
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:41:50 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JSmithCSA@-------- [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:43 AM
>
> Thank you for your comments on Christianity and other faiths in
> NovaRoma. It is unfortunate that neither the senate nor the pontiffs
> agree with you, having just refused the formation of a Sodalitas to
> study (I say again, STUDY, not practice) Judaism during the Roman-era

With respect, this is something of a distortion of events. The Collegium
Pontificum had not had an opportunity to examine the most recent draft of
the Sodalitas Iudaicum charter. In deference to the Collegium, several of
whose members wanted time to discuss elements of the revised charter, the
Senators agreed to defer the measure to a later date. If the Senate's rules
had allowed for it, the item would simply have been removed from the agenda
entirely, but in this instance our only means to delay was to vote "no".

Even though the revised charter does, as you say, remove references to the
study of Christianity, and doesn't overtly allow for the establishment of a
Jewish priesthood within Nova Roma, there are certainly sufficient religious
aspects to the Sodalitas to warrant allowing the Pontiffs to voice their
opinion. The Senate's vote should simply be seen as a delay to allow for
more discussion, not as a flat-out refusal (as is borne out by the comments
accompanying many of the votes).

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Site enhancement.
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:57:25 -0000

This is a most excellant enhancement, but for some reason it doesn't
seem to be working quite right. I have tried updating my e-mail
address on my personal Nova Roma home page several times, but it is
still listed as private. So, what is going on?

Cum Gratia,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma Coins
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:53:20 -0000

Salvete Omnes!

I just got my first order of coins and they are fantastic and
everything I had hoped they would be! So I would like to personally
thank Marcus Cassius Iulianus.

Cum Magna Laude (for Marcus Cassius Iulianus),

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Blaming Romans
From:	thefool@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:18:23 -0000

>
>
> Avete!
>
>> I am strongly inclined to agree with Marcus Sentius <<

Be careful, that might just encourage me to make more posts... :-)

>> that the religion of the Jews was accorded much respect by the
Romans, who also feared the God of the Jews (on his deathbed, Titus
Imperator claimed that the Jewish God was punishing him for the
destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem). The Jewish religion was not
evangelical as the new Christian religion was, and posed no political
threat to the Romans until the time of Tiberius, when various Judean
fringe groups such as the Zealots terrorized the Romans in an effort
to drive them out of Judea. I would like to correct Marcus Sentius
on one point, however: it is only until very recently that the Romans
were made responsible for the death of Jesus: for almost 1900 years,
the blame was placed directly on the Jews, and the Romans regarded as
merely an instrument of their will.
<<

Gratis Claudia Martia

I did not know that blaming Romans for the crusifixion was a recent
occourance. Thank you for enlightening me.
However, why after 1900 years was there this shift in focus from the
Judas priests to the Roman administration?

Cheers,
Marcus Sentius Accipiter
Centurion, Leg II Aug
Citizen, Nova Roma

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Christain Beliefs (response to author)
From:	martin p987654 <mp987654@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 02:26:08 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Marcus Audens + others

You sent your letter regarding Christian beliefs to a
wrong person.

The intent of my original letter (bellow) was NOT to
tell you or others how to believe, or that your belief
is wrong. The intent of my letter was to show you a
contradiction: if one person holds two beliefs, one
belief in Christian God and other belief in Roman
Gods, that means that the person holds two beliefs
that are in direct opposition to each other. Plain
contradiction. Please reread my original letter.
While reading it, please note that believing in
Christian God and acknowledging Roman gods means to
accept them both, or to admit both as true.

BELIEVING in Christian God and RESPECTING the beliefs
of others in Roman Gods is a DIFFERENT story. I have
no problem with it. Live and let live is my motto as
well. Although such story was NOT the subject matter
of my original letter and definitely NOT the object of
my original letter, you wrote an impressive and
emotional essay on it. Yet, it failed to address the
point I made in the original letter.

Therefore, there is no need to modify my beliefs, as
you suggest. But there may be need for some of us to
read messages CAREFULLY before writing extensive
response to them. It saves time and effort. Yours
and ours.

Respectfully;

Gaius Julius Caesar

--- James Mathews <jmath669642reng@--------> wrote:
> Master Caesar;
>
> I would ask that your determinations regarding your
> beliefs in regard to
> Christianity be modified with reference to your
> beliefs alone.
>
> I am a Christain, and I find no problem whatsoever
> in recognizing the
> beliefs of those around me in the Gods Of Rome. The
> beliefs of those
> around me who profess a belief in the Gods of Rome,
> do not depress me,
> nor do they force me from my own individual beliefs.
> I find no problem
> in recognizing the Gods of Rome in thier eyes,
> because it is to my mind
> that thier faith in the Gods of Rome again gives
> rise to thier influence
> in this world. There are hundreds of Christain
> Sects, and probably
> thousands of pagan sects no two being exactly alike,
> no two beliefs
> being totally determinate. Will you argue to me the
> difference of the
> Valentinian Gnostics from the Sethians of the old
> world, both Christian
> Sects but with very strong disagreements between
> them?
>
> In my individual beliefs, I hold the Christain God
> supreme. However, I
> realize that for a variety of reasons those around
> me have beliefs which
> are foriegn to mine. I have been welcomed here in
> Nova Roma by those
> very people, given many honors by those very people,
> as well as many
> privaledges. In this place, I honor the Roman
> Religion, as the religion
> supreme here in Nova Roma. I have no problem in
> being respectful of
> another's beliefs, and showing that respect in all
> the ways that I may
> have at my command.
>
> However, no-one knows what is in my heart and mind,
> and no-one knows how
> I deal with my faith, and since it is not required
> to wear one's faith
> on one's arm like a past symbol of superiority, OR a
> past symbol of
> shame to all others, I do not choose to do so.
>
> The action or verbalization of how others should
> think and believe have
> resulted in the worldly actions of such horror and
> animal-like behavior
> on the part of religious fanatics throughout history
> that it is
> sufficient, I believe, to give rise to the basic
> consideration of live
> and let live. I should think that the Crusaders
> Slaughter of Christains
> in Jeruselum during the period of the Crusades --
> "until the blood of
> Christains ran fetlock deep in the streets," should
> be sufficient to
> cause some thought on the subject This because the
> Christain invaders
> could not tell a Christian from a Pagan in thier
> eastern garments, and
> did not scruple to ask. The shipment of Jews from
> Spain, during "The
> Inquisition" to other countries around the
> Mediterranean in ships
> deliberately designed to sink before reaching their
> destination is
> another such of two very small considerations in the
> religious history
> of the Christain Church. These stories are
> supplemented by perhaps
> lesser stories of disappointment by agressive or
> apathetic Christains
> who have not met the needs of potential believers,
> or have overstepped
> by large measure, the bounds of decency and polite
> behavior. Both such
> occurances have happened to me and many others here
> in Nova Roma, on
> many occasions, so I come to my beliefs in a long
> and roundabout way,
> with many detours, wrong turns, and mistaken ideas,
> finally realizing
> that tolerance, love of one's fellow man, and doing
> to others that which
> you would have done unto you, is pretty much an
> international venue for
> geting along. My travels around this old planet,
> having pretty much
> proved that set of ideas to me. Religious beliefs
> are personal, and
> have little place for me in public affiliations.
>
> While those true facts do not inhibit my Christain
> beliefs, they do
> deeply involve my feelings towards those who are
> "good" people, but who
> believe differently than I do.
>
> Do NOT, I pray, think yourself and your beliefs to
> be the only way along
> the road of life, for there are many such roads that
> lead to religious
> saisfaction, and as my friend Senator Maximus has so
> pungently written
> about the jackel-headed god, "no-one knows" exactly
> what one will meet
> on the far side of the River.
>
> There is active still, although small and secret at
> the moment, a cell
> of those in Nova Roma who wish to expel the
> Christains within NR. It
> has no strength as yet and has been in abeyance for
> sometime. The main
> people who are a part of this belief are clever,
> intelligent, and quite
> ruthless in thier intentions. It is, of course, my
> hope that they will
> never have the strength to leave thier secret place.
> The Consuls are
> aware of the situation, as I have notified them, and
> I believe that the
> Consuls and most of the Senate believe as I do that
> religous tolerance
> is mandatory in Nova Roma from both sides of the
> fence. Neither I, nor
> the Consuls, can name these citizens as there is no
> proof, except for
> thier rare private statements, with no witness
> willng to stand forth,
> which have been heard by myself and some Senior
> Magistrates. Such must
> be left at that for the moment.
>
> It s indeed a strange thing that one man or woman,
> cannot understand
> that another can believe as he or she wishes without
> feeling the strong
> need to interfere, in any one of many different
> ways. For those who
> feel such, I am extremely sorry, but I issue this
> commentary. I would
> not advise anyone to presume to address me on how I
> should believe, and
> I abhor any attempt to do so with anyone else.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>

> Salve, Dalmatice.>

> I apologize, but certainly the romans didn't
> persecute those who held a
> different religious belief than themselves? How then
could they hold
> together an empire stretching all across mare>
nostrum? If I've
> understood things correctly, the thing about>
christianity that the
> romans had a problem with, was the unwillingness of>
the christians to
> accept the roman religion. They were free to
believe> in God, but they
> refused to even acknowledge the roman gods, or the>
emperor. The
> christians belief and their way of expressing it
was> what caused the
> conflict, not any need on the romans' behalf to
hunt> down anyone with a
> different opinion, which I haven't seen any proof>
that they ever did.>

ORIGINAL LETTER (response to the letter above)

How could the Christians believe in God and at the
same time acknowldge the Roman gods? This doesn't
make sense to me. In fact, it is contradictory. If
you are a Christian, you believe in one God only.
Thus, you cannot acknowldge the existence of Roman
gods because such acknowledgement would contradict
your belief in (only one)God.

I agree with the others. I think that Christians were
persecuted because they were doing something that was
not Roman: they believed in God and denied the ancient
beliefs in Roman gods, thereby making the empire
lessRoman.

Gaius Julius Caesar

>
>
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	"Milly Jansen" <millys2@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:27:57 +0200

Salvete!

>From: Erik van der Heijden <e.vd.heijden@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
>Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:00:41 +0200
>
>Avete Omnes!
>
>First I must thank Pompeia Antonia for her excellent
>contribution to this discussion.
>Personally I find her message informative and pleasant to
>read.

I agree with Marcellus Decianus Batavius and I agree on the points Pompeia
made in her contribution!
>
>I agree with her that the Religio Romana was and hopefully
>still is very tolerant towards other beliefs. I think this
>tolerance is inherent to a polytheistic religious system.
>There's always room for a God or Godess more or less, so to
>say. This is a distinct difference from monotheistic
>beliefs. In those kind of sytems there can be only one God.
>Thus you can say that polytheistic religions are inclusive,
>while monotheistic ones are exclusive.
>This exclusivity can (and in my opinion will) cause
>hostility towards other deities and their followers, wich is
>clearly shown by the time christianity became the official
>religion of the Empire when all other cults were being
>persecuted.
>
>>Valete,
>
>Marcellus Decianus Batavius

I suggest that at the moment Christianity became the official, one and only
State Religion things started to get wrong. (Christianity IMHO wasn't meant
to be like that. I think that it's "founder" had a totally different
message.) People began to see it as an opportunity to make a career and that
p.e. damaged the true and originally noble intention of christianity.

May I also remind you that the Roman catholic church ( which was the
denomination I grew up with, before I converted to the Religio Romana)
is in a way kind of polytheistic! Just think of all the Saints they invoke!
:-)

Valete,

Agrippina Iulia Germanica

>
>
>PompeiaAntoniaCaesar schreef:
>
> > Avete,
> >
> > It was very Roman to practice religious tolerance. As
> > a matter of fact the Romans sort of had an adopt-a-God
> > policy. Wherever they conquered they were careful not
> > to offend the new Gods and were more than happy to
> > adopt Them as well. The more Gods they had, the
> > better for Rome. But there was one stipulation: you
> > could belong to any cult you wished as long as you
> > also belonged to the cult of Caesar. The Romans were
> > very superstitious people and they felt they needed
> > everyone's cooperation toward honoring the Gods for
> > the good of Rome. Not honoring Them was bad luck and
> > could weaken the empire. Christians were asked to
> > make a sacrifice, just light a candle or make an
> > offering of food to the Roman Gods which they refused
> > to do. This was looked upon as treason and it was
> > thought that this would jeopardize the welfare of the
> > empire. Romans did not for the most part actively
> > seek out Christians, and had Christians made this
> > small gesture to the Roman Gods as other foreign cults
> > did they would never have been singled out in the
> > first place. By the early part of the first century
> > AD most Romans didn't even know who the Christians
> > were. Nero brought them to light by using them as a
> > scapegoat for the devastating fires of Rome in 64 AD.
> > It says much for Romans that this did not quell the
> > rumors that Nero was to blame for the fires and many
> > felt truly sorry for the persecuted Christians. Some
> > Emperors persecuted Christians in an attempt to wipe
> > out this strange and foreign cult that disregarded
> > Roman Law not to mention that the Christians deeply
> > resented Rome as did the Jews. I suppose that in a way
> > Christians were looked upon as what we would consider
> > today as anarchists. Other Emperors practiced
> > leniency towards the Christians and gave instructions
> > that they were not to be actively sought out and given
> > every opportunity to absolve themselves of the
> > accusations of heresy. It is more clemency than the
> > Christian Church displayed toward non-Christians
> > during the Spanish Inquisition. Christian persecution
> > is really a very complex topic and pagan Rome has
> > always been portrayed as the evil empire that tried to
> > destroy Christianity which is really not the full
> > story at all.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Pompeia Antonia Caesar
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> > of Service.
> >
> >
> >
>******************************************************************************
> >
> > Dit bericht is gecontroleerd op virussen en virusvrij
> > verzonden.
> >
> >
> >
>******************************************************************************
>
>
>*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
>
>De disclaimer van e-mail van de gemeente Eindhoven vindt u op
>http://www.eindhoven.nl/disclaimer.htm
>
>Dit bericht is gecontroleerd op virussen en virusvrij verzonden.
>
>*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
From:	"salix" <salice@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:46:32 +0100

A.D.XIII. KAL. AVG. A.V.C. MMDCCLIV FLAVIVS VEDIVS GERMANICVS ET MARCVUS CASSIVS IULIANVS COS.
I, Marcus Salix Vigilius do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Marcus Salix Vigilius swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Salix Vigilius swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Salix Vigilius swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Salix Vigilius further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Propraetor Hispaniae to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Propraetor Hispaniae and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Yo, Marcus Salix Vigilius , por la presente juro solemnemente defender el honor de Nova Roma, y actuar siempre en el mejor inter�s de el Pueblo y el Senado de Nova Roma.

Como magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Marcus Salix Vigilius juro honrar a los Dioses y a las Diosas de Roma en mis actos p�blicos, y a seguir las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida privada y p�blica.

Yo, Marcus Salix Vigilius juro sostener y defender la Religi�n Romana como la Religi�n de Estado de Nova Roma y juro no actuar nunca de forma que pueda amenazar su estatus como Religi�n de Estado.

Yo, Marcus Salix Vigilius juro proteger y defender la Constituci�n de Nova Roma.

Yo, Marcus Salix Vigilius juro cumplir las obligaciones y responsabilidades del cargo de Propraetor Hispaniae de la mejor forma posible, de acuerdo a mi capacidad.

Por mi honor como Ciudadano de Nova Roma, y en la presencia de los Dioses y Diosas del Pueblo Romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el cargo de Propraetor Hispaniae y todos los derechos , privilegios, obligaciones y responsabilidades que ello conlleve.

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Subject:	Re(2): [novaroma] Re: Christain Beliefs
From:	"Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:20:44 -0400

Salvete Omnes,
I have lived among the Judeans all my life and I too find no conflict
between my belief and the beliefs of all Citizenry of Nova Roma...just as
all roads lead to Rome, so do all Paths lead to the Center. For a wheel
to properly turn, every spoke must be of equal importance. The Gods in
their graciousness have given us the diversity of many spokes. We all
have so much to give each other and so much to learn from each other!
Nova Roma appears to be the perfect place to gather together, honor the
Roman Gods and Goddesses, and honor each other's beliefs - All are One.
Salvi Sitis!
Claudia Martia

novaroma@-------- writes:
>Salvete,
>
>I too am a Christian and wholeheartedly agree with you
>both. I remain respecting others religious beliefs, be
>
>what they may. I expect the same with my belief, that
>others be respectful of it.
>
>Valete,
>Livia Aenea Apollonia Julia
>--- radams36@-------- wrote:
>> --- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
>> > Master Caesar;
>>
>> > I am a Christain, and I find no problem whatsoever
>> in recognizing
>> the
>> > beliefs of those around me in the Gods Of Rome.
>> The beliefs of
>> those
>> > around me who profess a belief in the Gods of
>> Rome, do not depress
>> me,
>> > nor do they force me from my own individual
>> beliefs.
>> >
>> > In my individual beliefs, I hold the Christain God
>> supreme.
>> However, I
>> > realize that for a variety of reasons those around
>> me have beliefs
>> which
>> > are foriegn to mine. I have been welcomed here in
>> Nova Roma by
>> those
>> > very people, given many honors by those very
>> people, as well as many
>> > privaledges. In this place, I honor the Roman
>> Religion, as the
>> religion
>> > supreme here in Nova Roma. I have no problem in
>> being respectful of
>> > another's beliefs, and showing that respect in all
>> the ways that I
>> may
>> > have at my command.
>> >
>> > ...finally realizing
>> > that tolerance, love of one's fellow man, and
>> doing to others that
>> which
>> > you would have done unto you, is pretty much an
>> international venue
>> for
>> > geting along. My travels around this old planet,
>> having pretty much
>> > proved that set of ideas to me. Religious beliefs
>> are personal, and
>> > have little place for me in public affiliations.
>> >
>> > While those true facts do not inhibit my Christain
>> beliefs, they do
>> > deeply involve my feelings towards those who are
>> "good" people, but
>> who
>> > believe differently than I do.
>> >
>> > It s indeed a strange thing that one man or woman,
>> cannot understand
>> > that another can believe as he or she wishes
>> without feeling the
>> strong
>> > need to interfere, in any one of many different
>> ways. For those who
>> > feel such, I am extremely sorry, but I issue this
>> commentary. I
>> would
>> > not advise anyone to presume to address me on how
>> I should believe,
>> and
>> > I abhor any attempt to do so with anyone else.
>> >
>> > Respectfully;
>> > Marcus Audens
>> >
>> Salvete,
>>
>> As a fellow Christian, I agree with you
>> wholeheartedly, Marcus - you
>> state your case plainly and compellingly. Attempts
>> to force one's
>> religious beliefs on another are plainly foredoomed
>> to failure, in
>> most cases. I will not force my beliefs on others,
>> nor suffer them to
>> force theirs on me. Tolerance and respect should be
>> our watchwords,
>> especially for something as personal as one's
>> religion.
>>
>> Valete,
>>
>> R Palaeologvs
>>
>>
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] television programs
From:	"Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:46:54 -0400

Salve, Pompeie!

I have heard about this series on the Roman Empire and it promises to be
excellent. I have copied PBS's description of the program and the dates
(remember, local dates & times may vary). If you go to PBS Online you can
find your local listing - this is not to be missed!

Vale,
Claudia Martia

novaroma@-------- writes:
>Avete Omnes,
>
>Just wanted to let everyone know that Friday, July 20
>there will be a one hour program on Julius Caesar on
>Arts and Entertainment's classroom series. Here in
>southern California it's on at 7:00 a.m.. Also, all
>next week, July 23-27, A & E's classroom series will
>be chronicling 5 of the Roman Emperors; Augustus,
>Nero, Hadrian, Constantine and Justinian.
>
>Vale,
>
>Pompeia Antonia Caesar
>
>__________________________________________________
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>

PBS Online
The Roman Empire in the First Century

I. ORDER FROM CHAOS
July 18, 8 pm EST; (check local listings)

Millions of people � both famous and uncelebrated � played parts in the
astonishing resonance of Rome. But above them all was Caesar Augustus.
Raised amid civil war, Augustus came to personify the people he led. He
was contradictory: at once capable of brutal violence and tender
compassion. He was influential: Augustus forged the image of Roman
grandeur that endures to this day. And he was enormously popular. But
those that crossed Augustus often faced dire consequences: his rivals Marc
Antony and Cleopatra; the love poet, Ovid; even his own daughter, Julia.
The story of Augustan Rome is the story of greatness at a price.

II. YEARS OF TRIAL
July 18, 9 pm EST; (check local listings)

In the year 14 AD, Augustus died and the Empire stood at a crossroads.
Would Rome continue on the course set by its first emperor... or return to
chaos? A reluctant new emperor quickly inhabited the imperial palace, and
quickly confronted mutiny and intrigue. At first, Tiberius struggled to
live up to his predecessor. But he soon abandoned the effort. Tiberius'
ultimate decline from ascetic ruler to reclusive despot ushered in one of
the most notorious rulers of the ancient world � Caligula. As fear and
conspiracy descended on Rome, crisis roiled the provinces. In Judaea, a
charismatic leader named Jesus challenged the religious and political
establishment. The local furor barely touched Rome, but the legacy of
Jesus would one day engulf the Empire itself.

III. WINDS OF CHANGE
July 25, 8 pm EST; (check local listings)

In this episode, Claudius, the most unlikely member of the imperial
family, becomes one of the greatest emperors of the Roman Empire � only to
fall victim to a brutally ambitious wife. A principled philosopher named
Seneca found himself compromised as a tutor to the erratic young Nero. In
Britain, a warrior queen named Boudicca battled Roman legions, and in
Judaea, the Jewish people revolted. Under Nero's disastrous rule, Rome
nearly burned to the ground. The Empire was on the edge of disaster.

IV. YEARS OF ERUPTION
July 25, 9 pm EST; (check local listings)

With Nero's death, the dynasty of Augustus came to an end. And once again,
the Empire faced an uncertain future. Rival generals fought for supremacy
in the streets of Rome. A new dynasty brought another tyrant to the
throne. Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying Pompeii and thousands of people
beneath a torrent of ash and mud. But the Empire weathered the crisis. As
the first century drew to a close, Rome's legacy was destined to
reverberate across the ages.

Interview with Producer Margaret Koval �

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
From:	manius_constantinus_serapio@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:37:28 -0000

AVE

congratulations, Marce Salix Vigilie!
I am really happy for your appointment!
Quod bonum felix faustumque sit!

respectfully
VALE MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:05:13 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

Thank you...As I continue on reading on this list, I
find out how well thoughtout Nova Roma really is.
Reading the Constitution is a bit like legal speech
and I do not quite understand some of it but I am
getting up to speed.

Valete

Marcus Bianchius Antonius

--- labienus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete Marce Bianchi et alii
>
> > What are century points and what are the used for?
>
>
> In the ancient Comitia Centuriata, citizens were
> divided according to wealth.
> The wealthier members were assigned to more
> advantageous centuriae (centuriae
> with fewer members, thereby according more weight to
> each individual's vote).
>
> Nova Roma retains the Comitia Centuriata, but does
> not recreate the ancient
> plutocracy. Instead, we award century points to
> cives who actively support the
> state, thereby attempting to replace the old
> plutocracy with a meritocracy.
> Since we also give century points for length of
> citizenship, it also
> establishes something of a gerontocracy.
>
> You can see how century points are assigned by
> reading the following leges:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99211202.html
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
>
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:06:03 -0400

Salve

Feel free to keep asking questions! And if you haven't already, you might
want to cruise by my page for new citizens at
http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow (there's also a link to it
from the main NR website).

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus Bianchius Antonius [mailto:imperialreign@--------]
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:05 AM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Century Points
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Thank you...As I continue on reading on this list, I
> find out how well thoughtout Nova Roma really is.
> Reading the Constitution is a bit like legal speech
> and I do not quite understand some of it but I am
> getting up to speed.
>
> Valete
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
>
>
> --- labienus@-------- wrote:
> > Salvete Marce Bianchi et alii
> >
> > > What are century points and what are the used for?
> >
> >
> > In the ancient Comitia Centuriata, citizens were
> > divided according to wealth.
> > The wealthier members were assigned to more
> > advantageous centuriae (centuriae
> > with fewer members, thereby according more weight to
> > each individual's vote).
> >
> > Nova Roma retains the Comitia Centuriata, but does
> > not recreate the ancient
> > plutocracy. Instead, we award century points to
> > cives who actively support the
> > state, thereby attempting to replace the old
> > plutocracy with a meritocracy.
> > Since we also give century points for length of
> > citizenship, it also
> > establishes something of a gerontocracy.
> >
> > You can see how century points are assigned by
> > reading the following leges:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99211202.html
> >
> > Valete
> > T Labienus Fortunatus
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Fabric sales.
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:19:35 EDT

Salvete,
(I will apolgize for the repeat posts on various lists)
Now is the time to find fabric for warm weather use. My local stores
are now clearing out the summer stuff at very low prices. J0-Anns that is a
state side company is have great deals. I bought a blue raw/noil (nubby) silk
for 50% of retail about 3.50 a yard. while many of the colors are modern
brights there is an off white, purple and a blue not to bad. They are also
clearing out the summer linens and I got a great dark red with a few lines of
dark blue threads. it gives it a very narrow strip. A nice weight fabric.

Jo-ann is also through this Saturday getting rid of markdowns at
another 20% off so there would be good deal for fabrics not only for clothing
but pillows, throws, pallas all sorts of uses. Even if you don't sew its nice
to be able to cover a cooler or chair so it better fits the mood.

Many fabric stores or discount stores that have fabric like Wal-marts
will be have ing fabric sales so take advantage of this. Think of it as a way
of adding to your education and getting to know the local available resources.

Not sure what to buy for Nova Roma ? The Nova Roma main site has
links to many of the Leggios that have good suggestions!

Valete
Benificarius Prima Ancinna Drusila (whose gens change is still pending)
who is always available to help!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Site enhancement.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:24:08 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Patrici Vitruvi,

> This is a most excellant enhancement, but for some reason it doesn't
> seem to be working quite right. I have tried updating my e-mail
> address on my personal Nova Roma home page several times, but it is
> still listed as private. So, what is going on?

Indeed, I've seen your submissions... what this does is allow you to
change the address that's on file for you in the database; this address
is used for various notification mailings, for sending your password and
voter code to if you request them from the server, and verifying your
identity if you ask the censores to make other changes. When you
used the editing tool, you didn't change that address.

The label "private" always displays in the address field on the public
album civium pages for non-magistrates. While I could easily add a
flag field to the database that could make it public, and allow that
to be edited using the new updating tool, the Lex Cornelia de Privatis
Rebis does not say that a citizen may choose to have their address
exempted from it. Until this is changed the addresses must stay
private.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Christian beliefs
From:	JSmithCSA@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:47:50 -0000

Salve Consul Germanicus et al,

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:

> With respect, this is something of a distortion of events.

If it is a distortion, it is unintentional, but is based on my
readings of the Tribune's report and the posts on the Sodalitas's
internal list and not being privy to all of the discussions of the
Senate.

The appearance to me as a reader is that the Collegium wants a Roman
(non-Jewish) focus on a Sodalitas intended to study Roman-era
Judaism. Since that cannot be done, there will be no Sodalitas.

The Collegium
> Pontificum had not had an opportunity to examine the most recent
draft of
> the Sodalitas Iudaicum charter. In deference to the Collegium,
several of
> whose members wanted time to discuss elements of the revised
charter, the
> Senators agreed to defer the measure to a later date. If the
Senate's rules
> had allowed for it, the item would simply have been removed from
the agenda
> entirely, but in this instance our only means to delay was to
vote "no".

The changes made from the last draft, which the Collegium had
reviewed, to the one submitted to the Senate, were made at the
request of the Collegium. The only change not made was the title of
the leader, which is a minor, and not a religious, point.

> Even though the revised charter does, as you say, remove references
to the
> study of Christianity, and doesn't overtly allow for the
establishment of a
> Jewish priesthood within Nova Roma, there are certainly sufficient
religious
> aspects to the Sodalitas to warrant allowing the Pontiffs to voice
their
> opinion. The Senate's vote should simply be seen as a delay to
allow for
> more discussion, not as a flat-out refusal (as is borne out by the
comments
> accompanying many of the votes).

I agree that our proposal has religious implications and that the
Collegium should have a role. That is why we have involved them in
the preparation of the Collegium.

I hope the Collegium can make their specific desires know to us, so
that we can resubmit as soon as possible. We have made every change
they have asked of us, yet still they have reservations. Perhaps the
Collegium will delegate a liaison to join the Sodalitas Judaicum to
work out the details of a resubmission, but we will work with them in
any forum they prefer.

On a personal note, I hope they will also tell us why the study of
Roman-era Christianity, as a "descendent" (so to speak) of Judaism,
had to be removed.

Dalmaticus

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Governors
From:	JSmithCSA@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:53:09 -0000

Salvete,

Belated congratulations to M. Salix Vigilius and Drusus on their
appointment as governors in Nova Roma!

Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:58:02 +0200

Salve Illustrus Marcus Salix Vigilius!

Congratulations to your appointment as Propraetor of Hispania! I am
especially fond of Provincia Hispania and I have a very good contact with
your son Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur, if I can do anything for You and
your Provincia, please tell me!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans
From:	"Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:22:20 -0400

novaroma@-------- writes:
>>
>>
>> Avete!
>>
>>> I am strongly inclined to agree with Marcus Sentius <<
>
>Be careful, that might just encourage me to make more posts... :-)
>
>>> that the religion of the Jews was accorded much respect by the
>Romans, who also feared the God of the Jews (on his deathbed, Titus
>Imperator claimed that the Jewish God was punishing him for the
>destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem). The Jewish religion was not
>evangelical as the new Christian religion was, and posed no political
>threat to the Romans until the time of Tiberius, when various Judean
>fringe groups such as the Zealots terrorized the Romans in an effort
>to drive them out of Judea. I would like to correct Marcus Sentius
>on one point, however: it is only until very recently that the Romans
>were made responsible for the death of Jesus: for almost 1900 years,
>the blame was placed directly on the Jews, and the Romans regarded as
>merely an instrument of their will.
><<
>
>
>Gratis Claudia Martia
>
>I did not know that blaming Romans for the crusifixion was a recent
>occourance. Thank you for enlightening me.
>However, why after 1900 years was there this shift in focus from the
>Judas priests to the Roman administration?
>
>Cheers,
>Marcus Sentius Accipiter
>Centurion, Leg II Aug
>Citizen, Nova Roma
>
>
Salve, Marcus Sentius: May you continue to post messages in aeternum!
The decree of Vatican II (1962) that allowed that the Jews were no longer
held directly responsible for the death of Jesus. According to my
understanding, the Romans were always regarded as the instrument of the
public will to execute Jesus, which made the Jews the responsible party,
if not the actual executioners. For the Christians, this was enough to
sustain the persecution of the Jews for almost 2000 years. (The quote
taken from the transcrips of Vatican II is below - pardon my digression:)

<< True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed
for the death of Christ (13); still, what happened in His passion cannot
be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor
against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new People of God,
the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if
this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that
in catechetical work or in the preaching of the Word of God they do not
teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the
spirit of Christ.>>

What I have learned in my very brief time thus far as a Citizen in Nova
Roma is that, through our collective respect and worship of the Roman
Gods, we also come to an understanding that we are all the same in our
differences and must tolerate and accept our differing beliefs. To quote
L. Annaeus Seneca, "Facilius per partes in cognitionem totius adducimur" -
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Salvus sis (may you be well)!
Claudia Martia

>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	TribuneAfricanus@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:40:27 EDT

I, Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus (Shane Evans) do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a Legate of Lacus Magni, I, Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus
(Shane Evans) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses
of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus (Shane Evans) swear to
uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus (Shane Evans) swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Scipiadus Scipio Africanus (Shane Evans) further swear
to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the
office of Legate of Lacus Magni Orientalis to the
best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of Legate of Lacus Magni Orientalis and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:20:08 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Omnes!

As far as I know and can tell, the Jews are still
blamed by some groups for the crucifixtion of Jesus.
In Catholic masses on Good Friday this is made pretty
clear. All of the peole in the nave (seating area)
play the part of the Jews and yell "Crucify him!
Crucify him!". Where as the person who plays pilot
thinks Jesus is innocent, regrets doing what he must
do, and washes his hands of guilt. Also, though I am
much less sure of this, when Catholics pray for
non-Catholics at a mass everyone kneels as all the
other faiths are listed, except for the Jews for whom
we stand because we still blame them.

Valete optime! :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:43:37 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

I have thought that there were two reasons for the
Romans' pesecution of the Christians. As far as the
Romans knew, when the Christians went into the
catacombs they ate their God (Communion) who was a
man, and therefore they practiced canabalism. Also,
they didn't worship the Roman Gods, which the Romans
found especially insulting when it came to the
Imperial cult ("You won't worship the emeperor because
he is just a man, but you will worship a man who was a
condemned criminal?"). There groups of Christians who
couldn't fully fit into these categories because they
thought Christ was just the Messiah and not God, but
generalizations were bound to be made and since they
still wouldn't worship the Gods they were close enogh.

Valete optime! :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Christian beliefs
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:28:20 -0700 (PDT)

PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
Avete,

I was pleasantly surprised to find that Nova Roma has
so many Christians among it's cives. Even though I'm
not a Christian it makes me admire and respect Nova
Roma even more knowing that cives from all religious
backgrounds respond to our message. All should be
welcome and made to feel welcome to our nation. I
sincerely hope that there is no movement to expel
religious sects outside the Religio Romano from Nova
Roma for as long as individuals of other faiths
exhibit respect toward the state religion we certainly
owe them the same respect.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

Salvete Pompeia et Omnes,

I agree with Pompeia 100% on this issue.

Personally I practice more than one religion and I believe in (capital G) God. I believe that the gods and goddesses are all emanations of one Supreme Being. This comes from many years of studying and practicing religion. There is room for everyone who practices respect. Most all religions follow similar moral and ethical codes.

Master Audens is very wise in his perception and tolerance and I personally respect his beliefs. Let me assure you, I have no wish to see *anyone* banished from NR based on religious beliefs.

Matters of religion that have been currently discussed are primarily in the historic aspect. Let's face it, all people of all religious backgrounds have made mistakes and committed terrible evils. Some just because they were evil people and some for twisted views of promoting their religious cause.

IMHO again, I think that the problems arise when one group *shows* intolerance and persecution toward another's beliefs. It can be a simple phrase as we have seen previously on the list to start and all out minor confligration.

I believe we have it in our power in nations that offer freedom of religion to set an example of tolerance and set aside our fears that any one group is going to "take over" anything.

How in the world individuals in NR would want to keep Christians out or even could is not logical. Given that there are many gens with many Paters and Maters of all religious persuasions this idea does not hold water. In addition, from what I can see, there is not an overwhelming participation in Relgio Romana. So who would these people be that what to nix all Christians?

I encourage everyone to see that this line of thinking is just as harmful as one of religious intolerance. The beauty of Nova Roma is that no *one* religious group has control over anything. It is what all of us make it.

I encourage Master Audens to set his mind at rest and be assured that his worst fears of banning Christians be eliminated as this is likely never to happen given the vast nature of beliefs found at NR. I feel that it is harmful to Master Auden's very productive nature and that this energy could best be used in some other way than worry over this issue. In my opinion, you are certainly welcome to invite many more Christians to become members of NR, thus relieving your fears permanently.

To have several sides of an issue keeps all of us honest.

Valete, Maximina Octavia (Peace and Love to all!)

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Subject:	Re: Re(2): [novaroma] Re: Christain Beliefs
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT)

Cheryl Mavrikos <cheryl_mavrikos@--------> wrote:
Salvete Omnes,
I have lived among the Judeans all my life and I too find no conflict
between my belief and the beliefs of all Citizenry of Nova Roma...just as
all roads lead to Rome, so do all Paths lead to the Center. For a wheel
to properly turn, every spoke must be of equal importance. The Gods in
their graciousness have given us the diversity of many spokes. We all
have so much to give each other and so much to learn from each other!
Nova Roma appears to be the perfect place to gather together, honor the
Roman Gods and Goddesses, and honor each other's beliefs - All are One.
Salvi Sitis!
Claudia Martia

Ave Claudia,

Bravo! You have said so succinctly what I tried to say in too many words. I agree, we all are One, that includes all God's emanations. Yes, the gods and goddesses too. My earnest prayer is that all come to see this and honor each others practices and beliefs.

Vale, Maximina

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:51:24 -0700 (PDT)

Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> wrote:
Very good post and quite interesting as well as
thought-provoking.

Another issue that should be added to this mix is that
(I hope there's no "Cult of Caesar" types with hungry
lions around) is that what people of power do is not
always reflective of the people/nation. People with
power have been known to abuse their power. An
example: someone earlier in this discussion (my
apologies for not having the name) mentioned that
persecuting Christians was un-Roman. True, but it
happened -- for whatever reason. Perhaps it was
because they needed a scapegoat (see above), they
needed a show for the people at the coliseums, etc.,
and the Christians were just available (as were the
Jews in the 1930s and 40s).

Ideas?

Dalmaticus

Ave, Dalmaticus,

I think the nations beliefs were supported by the number of people that attended the games. So I think we can safely say that it was a national and popular pastime.

In order to justify Roman actions, I think we tend to want to make excuses or provide explanations *we* can understand.

We have more chance of understanding the man from Mars that we do the Roman mind or any ancient mind. Our comprehension cannot come close to understanding the collective consciousness of a nation and its people from so long ago.

I think that there is now evidence (I have no other sources than TLC) that there probably was not the blood bath on Christians that we once believed (If I am wrong, please feel free to set me straight on this matter). IMHO the only Christians that may have been "fed to the lions" were those who were judged criminals.

We also have to look at what was considered a crime as well. Not honoring the gods of Rome was a crime, Who did this? Christians. Who were "eaten" because of it? Christians. (Primarily). I think it was really that simple. Therefore, the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans". A large matter of *respect*.

Vale, Maximina Octavia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Christian beliefs
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:06:21 -0700 (PDT)

JSmithCSA@-------- wrote:
Thank you for your comments on Christianity and other faiths in
NovaRoma. It is unfortunate that neither the senate nor the pontiffs
agree with you, having just refused the formation of a Sodalitas to
study (I say again, STUDY, not practice) Judaism during the Roman-era
(having previously removed the study of Roman-era Christianity during
the staffing process). Although other faiths are considered "welcome
visitors" by the constitution, we are not yet allowed to organize
ourselves to study the Roman-era history of our faiths in NovaRoma.
I hope someday true freedom of religion will be allowed here.

Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus

Ave dearest Dalmaticus,

I read the vote and the comments contained therein. I think the request was that you re-write the proposal for reconsideration. Please don't consider the vote an all out rejection.

Perhaps in taking this vote so personally, has caused hard feelings that are inhibiting you from moving forward on this issue. It might be to your benefit to have a disinterested party review your proposal for a fresh perspective on its content. This person could possibly shed light that would help in getting this proposal passed.

I personally would be interested in a Roman historical perspective of Judaism. There is much we all could learn in a group such as this. Nothing so alleviates peoples fear as de-mystification.

You have my support and best wishes for forming a group that studies historical Judaism in ancient Rome.

Best of Luck,

Vale, Maximina Octavia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:53:08 -0000

---

Salve Patricius:

Just to note, under the current RC rights on Good Friday, the Jewish
people are prayed for, and not as the *guilty party*, but as being the
forerunners of the Christian faith. It has been like this, atleast in
Canada, for atleast 20 years.

And regarding formal blame assigned to the Romans re the crucifixion,
I have not heard of any such formal declaration. The only thing I
have heard remotely related to this is Pope John Paul II's public
apology to the world for the wrongdoing done various peoples and
relgions on the part of Catholicism throughout the centuries. He did
this two years or so ago. Heck it's a start, aint it? :)

I was raised to believe that the crucifixion was not the Jews fault,
nor was it Rome's fault......My parents, would explain it to me as:
the crucifixion was "ALL" our faults...someone just had to hammer in
the nails. Translation, from a Christian perspective, if Jesus was
the perfect sacrifice and he died for all our sakes, then each of us
has to take the responsibility for his death. Or, if we do not believe
this, he was a benevolent teacher who died at the hands of dirty
politics, from a select few men who did *not* act in accordance with
the spirit of their traditional customs/laws.

My point is, their is no justification on the part of Christians
pointing fingers at anyone and saying "you did it".....Nope
"we did it".(besides, that isn't being very Christian, to boot).

Just some thoughts......

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

In novaroma@--------, Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> As far as I know and can tell, the Jews are still
> blamed by some groups for the crucifixtion of Jesus.
> In Catholic masses on Good Friday this is made pretty
> clear. All of the peole in the nave (seating area)
> play the part of the Jews and yell "Crucify him!
> Crucify him!". Where as the person who plays pilot
> thinks Jesus is innocent, regrets doing what he must
> do, and washes his hands of guilt. Also, though I am
> much less sure of this, when Catholics pray for
> non-Catholics at a mass everyone kneels as all the
> other faiths are listed, except for the Jews for whom
> we stand because we still blame them.
>
> Valete optime! :->!
>
> Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
>
> Civis Novae Romae.
>
> __________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Caesar and Jesus of Nazareth
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:14:18 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

Just some more thoughts on why we cannot blame the Roman system for
the crucifixion of Jesus....

To begin with, with my historical knowledge of the use of Roman
Military Intelligence, I find it utterly implausible that the Romans
were not watching Jesus like a hawk. A preacher, rabbi, whatever,
located in the hotspot of Roman problems, Palestine, who taught loving
our neighbour, emphasizing forgiveness, preached to anyone and
everyone about the dynamics of love, forgiveness, and other *virtues*,
healing the sick by the droves, feeding thousands on a thought, and
causing a generally rallying.......and Rome didn't know about him??
Oh, yeah they did. And they let him go for three and a half years, so
obviously they didn't see any intervention as necessary.

Pontius Pilate was not acting according to Roman Law.....by his own
admission he said "I find no case in this man"......according to Roman
Law, Jesus should have been allowed to leave. Jesus was further
accused by the Pharisee for imposing himself as mighty as Caesar by
calling himself one with God. The accusation was
judiciously ridiculous, as Jesus had made no aggression to Rome in
over three years, when he had many allies following him. But Pilate,
instead of weighing out the history and testimony of Jesus, caved to
the wishes of the Pharisees. The true motives are tucked within the
being of Pontius Pilate....we will never know.

But he was not doing the will of Caesar or the Roman people in
executing Jesus.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans/Beliefs
From:	"David Wolfman" <dwolfman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:15:56

Avete,

To start I must say my opinion in this matter is bias. However, everyone is
bias in one way or another. I am of the Jewisg people, but I have also
studied history and theology since I was twelve and hope to be objective. I
have a degree in Liberal Studies and I am going for my Masters in either
Liberal Studies or Information Studies (also known as library Science). I
worked briefly in an a museum of archaeology in the Mediterrean section and
am currectly a librarian.
I also wish to note my fiance` is Catholic. I go to her church and she goes
to my synagoue (when I go). Spiritually we are very open. In my studies I
have found in Judaism there is evidence of monotheism and polytheism. In
Genesis G-d is called "elohim" which translates into feminine and masculine.
It is also a plural word, suggesting a belief in a supreme diety combined
from many aspects. Before the Babylonian invasion Judaism had a history of
building shrines in the desert using uncut free standing stones. Further
evidence suggests the early Jews worshipped Yahwew and his consort Asherah.
Even after Solomon's great temple was build temples and shrines thoroughout
modern day Israel were used to worhshiped G-d's dualistic aspect. Solomon
himself was a man of mystism evoking a time of balanced approach with
respect to religion.
After the invasion and subsegent exile into Babylon the Bible's tone towards
this duality was rejected. Any polythesic tendecies were abolished and once
freed the Jews tore burn the shrines and temples and put central religious
authority into Yahweh and the temple in Jerusalem.
That in and of itself is not a major problem. For myself I see the first
commandment (thou shalt not have any other G-d before) and the referance to
graven images not as an attack on other relgions. My interpretation is that
it should be seen as a way to look at all the worlds religions as valid. In
my eyes G-d is everywhere and within everything. Unknowable and invisible,
the Creator. In other cultures G-d may go by another name or names and have
different faces, but this is to show the many aspects of the Creator. We are
all G-d's creation and a part of the Creator. G-d is beyond gender, names,
or faces. In this respect I see the pantheon of the Greco-Roman Gods, as
well as pantheons from around the world, as G-d showing as the multiple
aspects of the Creator. Therefore my fiance` and I are on a path which is
shamanistic (in my interpretation going back to the roots, the ancient
Kabbala).
The reference to graven images to me is interpreted as a warning to not give
power away. In other words if one prays to the iamge of a diety the danger
is to look for a power outside of yourself to do for you. By petitioning the
graven image you take away personal responisbility and power to an outside
force. Yes, G-d is greater, but G-d is also within us. I am not saying we
are G-d, but we are a part of creation and the Creator. Therefore we must
take part in our destiny. I pray to work with G-d, not to have him work for
me.
I have debated with my fiance` that if you take the "graven iamges" to
another extreme: that any depiction of a diety is blasphmous then depicting
Christ is idol worship. After all, isn't Jesus depicted in churches? That
extreme is just that, extreme.
In the Jewish faith it is believed that heaven is achieved through good work
and actions on earth, not on any religious affiliation.
Judaism's conflicts arise when religious freedoms are being infrigded upon,
or percieved to be infridged upon. Before the Roman empire the descendants
of the Macedonians invaders ruled the world. The Syrian king took over
Israel. That was not the problem, invasion was common due to location. The
problem was the king forced to put the statue of Zeus in the temple. On top
of which the statue's face was modeled on the king's face. To add insult to
injury he sacrificed a pig, letting the blood spill over the entire temple.
The Jewish people revolted and crushed the Greeks. Unfortunately the mistake
the Jews made was to force the remaining gentiles to convert. The first and
only time in Jewish history for forced conversion, and one of the descednets
of those converted was Herod.
At first Rome was seen as a proctector, the glorious future economic partner
to the Jews. Caesar, Marcus Antonius, and Augustus were benefactors and
heroes to the Jewish people. Until that is Tiberius said you must pray to
the deified emperor. Those unhappy with Roman occupation and with the Herods
saw this as the last straw.
In examining the Roman/Jewish relations at the time is very difficult. There
was no, and as in modern times among the Jewish people, censesus on the
political situation.
The Zealots traveled away from the cities fighting querilla warfare vowing
to expel the Romans and the Herods. They believed the only authority was
G-d's authority. The zealots would also kill any Jew who were seen as
collaborators. They awaited the messiah "the annointed one" to lead a
military campaign to remove Israel's enemies.
The Essense, a group which Jesus is now thought to be associate with, took a
more ascetic and spiritual approach. They rejected the temple elitism and
sought to revive the spiritualism of the days of Solomon. They followed the
spirit of law.
The Pharises and Saduces were the "established" religious authority,
controlling the temple. They followed the letter of the law. They created a
temple bureacracy and were trying to walk a fine line to please the people
and the Romans (and their puppet Herod).
Even within the groups mentioned aboves, there were different factions
within those. To say the Jews as whole did or said one thing would be a
mistake. When Jesus was teaching this was during the reign of Tiberus. At
this time in empire there was already internal turmoil. Caligula's star was
beginning to rise. The praetorian guard Sejanus was stirring up trouble and
in other parts of the empire Jews were seen with suspicion.
I would like to make a statement here to say it is my belief that religion
is not the root of strife. Polital motivations and individuals within the
power structure wield religion as a weapon. The attacks of one religion on
another is not that fault of any religion but of the greater political
interests of bureacracies and institutions. The cult of the deified emperor
had many political overtones. The paganism of the ancient world tied civic
duties with religious festivals. In the Roman Empire the Imperial Cult
linked Mater Roma to her provenices. The deified emperor worship was a
public display of civic responsibilty and a sign a loyality. It gave
legitimization to the imperial linage.
By Jewish defiance of this it made them a target. Lack of particiation in
public festivals was a tacit crime. In the Roman world atheism was never an
option. This created a rift between the Romans and Jews which was never
truly resolved. The other political intanglment was the puppet ruler Herod
who was at the most tolerated by his subjects.
Taking the life of Christ in this context we can see the complexity of the
situation.
He was a rabbi who preached the Laws of Moses, but also defied them. He
attacked the temple bureacracy and Roman rule. What Jesus was attempting to
do was to empower the Jews. All Jews to the message of G-d's love and to
love all of G-d's creation. To those in the Jewish community who were
disenfranchised by the institutions of Rome and the Temple elite he was a
hero. To those temple bureacrats he was a threat to their authority, but
also a fellow rabbi. To the Romans he was one of many men who preached in
the Holy Land who in their eyes threatened the fragile stability in the
region. To the Romans Jesus was a subversive. He threated the economy,
tribute being Rome's prime interest, and the legitamacy of Herod's rule
which was seen as a danger to their rule.
In the eyes of the people... its not known. No one the Greco-Roman world
would have wished crucifixtion on a an. Not only was it a horrible way to
die but it was an excution for common criminals, the scum of the emipre. It
is inconcible that Pilate would have even asked the crowd their opinion or
that they would unamously plee for a man such as Jesus to die in that
manner. Some may have seen him as a prophet, others a minor rabbi with a
following with the middle class and poor. Some may have seen the messaih in
him but to others his message of peace went against the traditional view of
the messiah.
To those in power he was a zealot who had to be silenced for politicial
expediancy. The religious leaders try to negotiate a settlement with Jesus.
They pleaded with him to comprimise. They had seen and heard of him, and saw
did the Roman authorities. He was under Roman authority and the priests
intervined trying to save a fellow Jew from trial. They may have spoken with
the Romans saying his case was concerning religious authority and thus the
priests would have jurisadiction. But Jesus did not comprimise. The priests
may have conducted the interview but they had Roman observers. The Romans
took custodity and jurisdiction over the case. The priests gave him over,
knowing he would recieve a death sentence. They would have had him stoned, a
traditional execution. Pilate (who would described by his own men as cruel
and who later would be removed from governorship to die alone and pennyless)
decided he should die as a common criminal, on the cross. The Gospels say
Pilate was willing to pardon a prisoner, however examination of the laws of
the time reveal no such law existed. The only person with the power to
pardon are the Vestal Virgins and the emperor. Roman authority, in the form
of a puppet king and a sadastic governor in the era of a unsavory emperor,
decided the fate of Christ.
Early Christianity was still an offshoot of Judaism, its founders being
Jewish and following the Laws. But, after the destruction of the Temple Jews
had lost their most holy site. The house of G-d was destoryed and the city
was now forbiddeb for Jews. Those who fought against the Romans were
enslaved and spoils of the temple went into funding the Coliseum. A few men
in positions of power killed Christ, not the people of Abraham, of which he
was among.
What happened was a split in Christianity with the old laws, customs, and
from Judaism in general. Thus later gentile gospel writers depict Jews as
the enemy of Christ and Rome, which they desire to assimilate into as
blameless. This was not the work or inherent nature of the religion but of
orginized poltical factions working in the church.
As for the idea of an orginized Jewish religious establishment... Jesus
preached against the temple authority. Jews today are independent and go to
G-d directly to atone. I say honor Christ's sacrifice and leave religion of
Judaism as it was after Titus destoryed Herod's temple. Let the relationship
with G-d and those of the Jewish faith be a personal and private one. I
thank you for your time.

Marcus Sententiosus Lupis

>From: "Cheryl Mavrikos" <cheryl_mavrikos@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:22:20 -0400
>
>novaroma@-------- writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> Avete!
> >>
> >>> I am strongly inclined to agree with Marcus Sentius <<
> >
> >Be careful, that might just encourage me to make more posts... :-)
> >
> >>> that the religion of the Jews was accorded much respect by the
> >Romans, who also feared the God of the Jews (on his deathbed, Titus
> >Imperator claimed that the Jewish God was punishing him for the
> >destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem). The Jewish religion was not
> >evangelical as the new Christian religion was, and posed no political
> >threat to the Romans until the time of Tiberius, when various Judean
> >fringe groups such as the Zealots terrorized the Romans in an effort
> >to drive them out of Judea. I would like to correct Marcus Sentius
> >on one point, however: it is only until very recently that the Romans
> >were made responsible for the death of Jesus: for almost 1900 years,
> >the blame was placed directly on the Jews, and the Romans regarded as
> >merely an instrument of their will.
> ><<
> >
> >
> >Gratis Claudia Martia
> >
> >I did not know that blaming Romans for the crusifixion was a recent
> >occourance. Thank you for enlightening me.
> >However, why after 1900 years was there this shift in focus from the
> >Judas priests to the Roman administration?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Marcus Sentius Accipiter
> >Centurion, Leg II Aug
> >Citizen, Nova Roma
> >
> >
>Salve, Marcus Sentius: May you continue to post messages in aeternum!
>The decree of Vatican II (1962) that allowed that the Jews were no longer
>held directly responsible for the death of Jesus. According to my
>understanding, the Romans were always regarded as the instrument of the
>public will to execute Jesus, which made the Jews the responsible party,
>if not the actual executioners. For the Christians, this was enough to
>sustain the persecution of the Jews for almost 2000 years. (The quote
>taken from the transcrips of Vatican II is below - pardon my digression:)
>
><< True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed
>for the death of Christ (13); still, what happened in His passion cannot
>be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor
>against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new People of God,
>the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if
>this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that
>in catechetical work or in the preaching of the Word of God they do not
>teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the
>spirit of Christ.>>
>
>What I have learned in my very brief time thus far as a Citizen in Nova
>Roma is that, through our collective respect and worship of the Roman
>Gods, we also come to an understanding that we are all the same in our
>differences and must tolerate and accept our differing beliefs. To quote
>L. Annaeus Seneca, "Facilius per partes in cognitionem totius adducimur" -
>We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
>Salvus sis (may you be well)!
>Claudia Martia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Blaming Romans/Beliefs
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:39:47 -0000

Salve Marce Senti:

What an excellent post........in many ways I agree with you.

How can any reasonable and perfect deity expect that all the
different peoples of the world with their various cultural influences
and perceptions, plus their own unique spiritual experiences, be
expected to have *the same* vision of the divine? Thus, I, too have
often wondered if "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" is meant
to have a broader meaning, as you suggest.

Your post today is just what I needed to read today, and I will not
get into the reasons........just know that it was encouraging and
thought provoking :)

I am going to print it out and keep it.

Bene vale,
Pompeia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	thefool@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:44:22 -0000

Salvete All,

--- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> ---
>
> Salve Patricius:
>
> Just to note, under the current RC rights on Good Friday, the
Jewish people are prayed for, and not as the *guilty party*, but as
being the forerunners of the Christian faith. It has been like this,
atleast in Canada, for atleast 20 years.
>
> And regarding formal blame assigned to the Romans re the
crucifixion, I have not heard of any such formal declaration. The
only thing I have heard remotely related to this is Pope John Paul
II's public apology to the world for the wrongdoing done various
peoples and relgions on the part of Catholicism throughout the
centuries. <<

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, Gratis for your post. While there is
no "formal" decleration that says "the Romans did this" - as someone
who is regularly bringing Rome to the (NZ) public eye a very common
question before displays is "are you going to do a crusifixion?"
While perhaps there is no formal doctrine to say so, it seems that
there is a common public perception that it was Rome that was
responsible for the crusifixion.
I have been involved is re-enactment in New Zealand for far longer
than I care to remember, much of that as a Brittish Red-coat soldier
from the time of the Zulu campaigns during Queen Victorias' reign in
a group called Alf's Imperial Army. New Zealand is currently gripped
by a fever of guilt over it's colonial past and often we are seen as
the 'bad guys' by the public, but strange as it seems for a country
that was discovered by the western world 200 years ago, as Romans we
get the same response from the public.
At displays and battles a good way to get people involved as an
audience is to get them to cheer for a particular side or champion,
but it is very hard to get people to support the Romans - like any
good Anglo-Saxon people we love a hero and a villan and Romans always
seem to be the villan.
Now, this may just be that I have a knack for getting people to cheer
anyone that want's to kill me, but it might be something more than me
(and with an ego as big as mine, that is hard to admit!).

Do other groups experience this sort of attitude from the public? Is
it just that New Zealand has a resistance to any symbol of Empire or
is this more widespread?

Cheers,
Marcus Sentius Accipiter

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:51:23 -0000

---Salvete Senti et alii

While I can only speak for myself, I have not been subject to such an
attitude in Canada, as you describe, but I can only speak for my own
experience. I am not aware of such reenactment festivals even
existing in atleast the province of Ontario. Perhaps another Canadian
knows otherwise.

In novaroma@--------, thefool@t... wrote:
> Salvete All,
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> > ---
> >
> > Salve Patricius:
> >
> > Just to note, under the current RC rights on Good Friday, the
> Jewish people are prayed for, and not as the *guilty party*, but as
> being the forerunners of the Christian faith. It has been like
this,
> atleast in Canada, for atleast 20 years.
> >
> > And regarding formal blame assigned to the Romans re the
> crucifixion, I have not heard of any such formal declaration. The
> only thing I have heard remotely related to this is Pope John Paul
> II's public apology to the world for the wrongdoing done various
> peoples and relgions on the part of Catholicism throughout the
> centuries. <<
>
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, Gratis for your post. While there is
> no "formal" decleration that says "the Romans did this" - as someone
> who is regularly bringing Rome to the (NZ) public eye a very common
> question before displays is "are you going to do a crusifixion?"
> While perhaps there is no formal doctrine to say so, it seems that
> there is a common public perception that it was Rome that was
> responsible for the crusifixion.
> I have been involved is re-enactment in New Zealand for far longer
> than I care to remember, much of that as a Brittish Red-coat soldier
> from the time of the Zulu campaigns during Queen Victorias' reign in
> a group called Alf's Imperial Army. New Zealand is currently
gripped
> by a fever of guilt over it's colonial past and often we are seen as
> the 'bad guys' by the public, but strange as it seems for a country
> that was discovered by the western world 200 years ago, as Romans we
> get the same response from the public.
> At displays and battles a good way to get people involved as an
> audience is to get them to cheer for a particular side or champion,
> but it is very hard to get people to support the Romans - like any
> good Anglo-Saxon people we love a hero and a villan and Romans
always
> seem to be the villan.
> Now, this may just be that I have a knack for getting people to
cheer
> anyone that want's to kill me, but it might be something more than
me
> (and with an ego as big as mine, that is hard to admit!).
>
> Do other groups experience this sort of attitude from the public?
Is
> it just that New Zealand has a resistance to any symbol of Empire or
> is this more widespread?
>
> Cheers,
> Marcus Sentius Accipiter

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Subject:	[novaroma] How to change the e-mail.......
From:	"P. Giuseppe" <giusesan@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Jul 2001 01:23:18 +0200

Ave,
I have a problem. In fact I have to change my e-mail address to receive the messages from the e-mail group. Could someone gently explain me what to do.
Marcus Curius Sabinianus.

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