| Subject: |
[novaroma] 100 percent bounce : 24 hours later |
| From: |
asseri@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:53:29 EDT |
|
Salvete -greetings-HI! (as it applys)
As I write this I am still at 100 percent bounce. Please if you have
responded to any of my posts on any of the lists I belong to that is why you
have yet to seen my cheery response!
I have inquired at Yahoo but it most likely it won't be till Monday
till I hear why this is happening. I am monitoring posts from the Yahoo
groups section but this is so irritating. If anyone has an inkling why this
is happening please share!
as always in service
Valete
Drusila
Aminah
Janet (again as it applys)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Varus Film Project - New Scene Just Added |
| From: |
"Tim O'Neill" <scatha@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 06:24:01 -0000 |
|
*** 'Clades Variana' Update ***
New Scene Added to the 'Varus' Screenplay
Scene Three - 'The Camp at Aliso'
The scene I've been working on for a while is now complete
and has been added to the screenplay.
In this scene we are introduced to some of the main Roman
legionary characters, whose travels, adventures and (sorry
about this) deaths we'll be following for much of the rest
of the story. The new recruit Marcus Aius and the *primus
pilus* Marcus Caelius - both historical characters in a
sense - make their first entrances.
Other members of the Third Contubernium, First Century,
First Cohort of Legio XVIII are also introduced, including
the squad's veteran and long suffering *caput* Quintus
Veranius Fimus. Prominent in the scene are the squad's
comedy duo, the gambler Manius Oranius Gallio and his
sidekick Drusus Salonius Cico. After all the strategy and
politics of the previous two scenes I thought it was time
for a little light relief.
Click on the link below to go to the new scene and then
feel free to add your comments in the appropriate thread
on the 'Varus Forum':
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/script3.html
New 'Discussion' Page Montage
Speaking of the 'Varus Forum', that part of the site now
has a new entrance page with a new montage. Apologies
to the Romanophiles, but the montage shows Arminius and
his lads having a bit of a celebration over the body of
a fallen *signifer*. A few people on the Germanic-L
forum have asked why the Cheruscian behind Arminius is
brandishing a head with long hair and a beard. The answer
is that it's the head of a Germanic auxiliary who chose the
wrong side in the battle. ;>
Click on the link below to have a look at the montage and
then enter the 'Varus Forum' to have your say. There've
been some good contributions lately on the earliest finds
of *lorica segmentata* and the evidence for the appearance
of the Germanic warriors:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2385/discussion.html
Coming Up?
The next additions in the pipeline will be a new entrance
page for the 'Screenplay' page, with a montage full of
Augustan Roman legionaries and, of course, Scene Four.
This one will introduce the love interest - Arminius'
young wife Thusnelda - and feature the first meeting of
Arminius and Varus.
Further down the track I'll be adding a Character List,
as there's already quite a few of them, an article on the
archaeology of the Kalkriese excavations and what they
reveal about the battle and an article/sermon/rant about
historical authenticity in films.
Best regards and thanks for your interest in 'Clades Variana'
and the Varus Film Project.
Gaius Arminius Germanicus / Tim O'Neill
'Clades Variana' Webmaster
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Going Away |
| From: |
"Kenneth VanDewark" <am_claudius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:12:02 +0800 |
|
Salvete cives,
I am currently writing this from Canada Occidentalis Provincia (Alberta). Unfortunately I shall have very little internet contact while I am away on this trip. I hope to be back regularly in early August. Hope to be back soon and I wish all Romans the best!
Donec Infra...
Valete,
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Canada Orientalis Provincia
--
_______________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans |
| From: |
Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:58:52 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve,
I, being Catholic, am certain that we do not "blame"
the Romans...and I understand that the Pope made it
clear recently that we no longer blame the Jews.
It is the "Will of God" so what happened was meant to
happen.
The Jews, as were the Romans, were part of the plan.
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
--- Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> As far as I know and can tell, the Jews are still
> blamed by some groups for the crucifixtion of Jesus.
>
> In Catholic masses on Good Friday this is made
> pretty
> clear. All of the peole in the nave (seating area)
> play the part of the Jews and yell "Crucify him!
> Crucify him!". Where as the person who plays pilot
> thinks Jesus is innocent, regrets doing what he must
> do, and washes his hands of guilt. Also, though I
> am
> much less sure of this, when Catholics pray for
> non-Catholics at a mass everyone kneels as all the
> other faiths are listed, except for the Jews for
> whom
> we stand because we still blame them.
>
> Valete optime! :->!
>
> Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
>
> Civis Novae Romae.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:32:15 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@-------->
wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I, being Catholic, am certain that we do not "blame"
> the Romans...and I understand that the Pope made it
> clear recently that we no longer blame the Jews.
>
> It is the "Will of God" so what happened was meant to
> happen.
>
> The Jews, as were the Romans, were part of the plan.
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
>
>
Salvete Omnes,
The idea of blaming the Romans for the death of Jesus is largely a
20th Century CE idea. Prior to recent times the Jews (As a people,
rather than the Sanhedrin) recived most of the blame.
This is largely the work of Holywood and left wing theologians, where
Pilate is cast as the represenative of the state crushing the rebel
indiviual. In the middle ages there was a legand that Pilate was
converted to Christanity by his wife Procula. Pilate's role here is a
sinner seeking and recieving forgivness from the church.
The Coptic Church not only beleaves that Pilate became a Christian,
but that he was crucified on the same cross that Jesus had died on,
making him a Martyr. The Coptic church celebrates Saints Pilate and
Procula day on June 25.
During his trial Jesus told Pilate "You would have no power over me
unless it had been given you from above; therefore the one who handed
you over to me is guilty of a greater sin" (John 19.11) This view
casts Pilate in the role as the instrument of Gods will, and places
the blame on Judas, a member of the radical Zealots.
During the European colonial era Pilate's role was the Colonial
Governer forced to make hard choices to preserve the peace.
So the role that Pilate (and by extension the Romans) played often
depends on the policital agenda of the historian.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Blaming Romans |
| From: |
"Milly Jansen" <millys2@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:07:21 +0200 |
|
Salvete!
In the first place it's indeed quite difficult to say who really was to
blame. I guess that it was a matter of wrong time, wrong place ( or not)...
IMHO the only thing the romans wanted was peace (Pax Romana)and regular
taxpayers.( so political, military and "financial" stability).
I don't think that the romans (at first) were not very interested in this
"fool" from Nazareth (there were more"preachers"/rabbi's like him) and since
he never preached revolution against the romans, they probably sat and
watched it. Besides Jesus himself even said: "give to Caesar what belongs to
Ceasar" ( Math.22: 17-21 , hope I translated it correct.)
I think that the romans started to get more involved in this story at the
very moment when the Highpriests started complaining and suggested that this
man from Nazareth was about to destabilize society.( ofcourse they
complained because those were the people who were fiercely attacked by
Jesus, right?) So what were the romans to do...I guess it was all a
political matter and choice...sacrificing this "harmless fool" or more
problems with the religious and local authorities? The choice would be
easy...
Valete,
Agrippina Iulia Germanica
_________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] An Encouraging Incident... |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:39:05 EDT |
|
Salvete,
Yesterday, Patricia Cassia and I went to an SCA event here in Maine, called
the "Great Northeastern War."
Patricia was doing a class on Roman clothing at the event, so the two of us
went in Roman garb, even though this is usually considered "out of period"
for most SCA gatherings. I was there selling ancient artifacts, so didn't
figure dressing in earlier era clothing would be a problem. After all I was
offering "antiques" to Medieval folks...
During the afternoon, a man and woman came up to my artifacts booth.
"Excuse me sir," the woman said, (looking at me in sandals, and tunica held
at the shoulder with fibulae) "Are you dressed as a Roman?" I of course said
that I was.
"Then you should have a copy of this newsletter!" she said, holding out a
copy. "It's from an organization called Nova Roma!"
It turned out to be a brand new newsletter for the Nova Britannia Provincia,
which I hadn't seen yet, and it turned out that the lady was Hyapatia Asinia
Margali, it's new editor. :)
This Quirites, marks the first time that a stranger has come up to me and
tried to introduce me to Nova Roma!
I can't express how good it was to see this. Such an instance shows that
we're growing, that we have Citizens interested enough to present Nova Roma
to others, and evidence that we're becoming more active on the Provincial
level.
Hypatia Margali and her friend, (who is not yet a Citizen, but *should* be -
hint, hint!) and Patricia Cassia and I had a very nice talk. We got some
newsletters, she in turn got some NR coinage and some informational flyers.
It was certainly the bright spot in MY day. The SCA, while a fun
organization, is about reenacting. Everyone has a "fake" persona with a made
up history, and they pretend to be that person during events. When people
meet at SCA gatherings much of the talk is about this type of reenactment.
Personas are traded, the costume associated with the persona is talked about.
Its pretty obvious that much of the involvement lasts only as long as the
event.
I found it refreshing to meet other Nova Romans in such an atmosphere. Much
of our conversation was about the Roman things in our everyday lives. The
difference was subtle, but definite. Romanitas is about real life as well as
for group participation.
In any case, my thanks to Hypatia Asinia Margali and her friend, for taking
the time to talk about things Roman. My thanks also to Marcus Minucius
Audens, who has been doing a wonderful job as Proconsul of Nova Britannia
Provincia, and to everyone he has chosen as legates and officers of the
Provincia. With a great newsletter going and folks enthused enough to talk
about Nova Roma, I believe we'll do very well indeed! :)
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Digest Number 1538 |
| From: |
"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:51:30 -0000 |
|
Salvete omnes!
A most thorough analysis by Marcus Sententiosus Lupis on this matter
of the account of the crucifixion found in the Gospel of John. I can
only add what little scholarship I do have on this matter.
The Gospel of John, although attributed to him in the honorable
tradition of adscribing works to eponymous authors, is known to most
scholarship to have been written after his death. This Gospel is
written at a time when Christians are under increased pressure from
Imperial authorities for refusing the Imperial cult, and for the
accusations made by Christians that the Romans are the agents of
Christ's death.
In an effort to reconcile Christianity with Rome, and to encourage a
more "kindly" view of Romans by the Christians, an almost completely
fictional Pontius Pilate is created. Pontius Pilate, a Roman of
Samnite descendancy, is acknowledged in Roman annals to have been one
of the more brutal propraetores of Palestine. In fact, several
uprisings, and ultimately the Bar Kochba uprising in 70 AD, are said
to have root causes in the policies and abuses of this rather
egregious individual. Yet in the Gospel of John, he is shown to be
almost sympathetic to Jesus, and declaring that Jesus is innocent...
An objective look at the facts is enough to understand that this
account is political in nature. A man known for his cruelty and total
lack of regard for Jewish customs and faith is being protrayed
sympathetic to a Jew? Not only that, a Roman Propraetor, a Senator of
Roma, the mightiest political power in that quadrant of the world, is
shown as timid and vacillating about the fate of a man of whom he has
complete control? When no other contemporary account, even the
Synoptikoi (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) make such a stretch? The
Synoptikoi merely mention that Jesus was taken before Pilate and
sentenced to death - John creates the whole trial before Pilate. This
passage is an apologia, saying to the Romans: "We don't blame you for
the death of Christ, folks - it's these selfish bastards over here
who call themselves Jews, but have abandoned the teachings of G-d".
BTW, another of our posters commented on a Good Friday ritual were
people in the nave of a Catholic Church "play" a part in the liturgy.
Not only does this deviate from the Mass, it deviates from any
liturgical act of the Church. I comment on this, since I have taught
adult catechism in the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA)
of the Catholic Church, I have been a Minister of the Word, and I
have played a part in the Via Crucis (The Passion and Crucifixion of
our Lord)in 3 different years; as the Centurio who leads the Roman
Guard during Pilate's trial and during the Crucifixion. Having
studied this particular account for several years, and also having
had access to the writings and opinions of many theologists and
Scriptural experts over the years, my understanding of the view of
scholarship on this account is that it is considered a political
account that happens to contain several important elements of Jesus's
life that have been ommitted from the Synoptikoi. These are things to
keep in mind when studying these accounts, and a good reason why you
should know the history and context of Scripture before you set out
to interpret or draw conclusions from it.
Unless you believe in inerrancy - in which case: never mind the
above. Your mind is already closed :-)
Marius Cornelius Scipio
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:55:06 -0000 |
|
Salvete,
While I'm anything but a historian regarding the life of Jesus and
affairs in the Roman Province of Judea, I believe there may have been
more to the Roman view of the situation. They may indeed have thought
Jesus a "fool", but they might not have considered him harmless.
The Jews had a long tradition of "Messianic" prophesy before the time
of Jesus. One of the things the Messiah was supposed to do was free
the Jews from foreign dominion and, well, put them "back on top" by
repairing their bond as the "chosen people" with Jehovah Yahweh.
While I have no textual evidence to cite, I believe that Jesus was in
fact one of the people who "deliberately" tried to play in to earlier
prophecies of the Messiah. Riding into Jerusalem on an ass, for
instance, was one of the things that the Messiah was supposed to do.
(My guess is that it was to show that the Messiah, while a leader,
would still be humble before God and the Jewish People.) As far as I
know this action, and a few others, were pretty much part of common
knowledge at the time.
Since Jesus did this (and a few other things that I am afraid I do
NOT have the time to research and present), and because he was
gathering huge crowds, he was sure to attract the attention of
officials of almost any stripe.
Considering the environment of the time, it wouldn't have been any
great reach to assume that Jesus was attempting to fulfill some of
the more well known prophecies about the Messiah. (Or worse, that he
might actually BE the Messiah.) And, since everyone knew the Messiah
was supposed to drastically change the governmental and political
situation of the Jews, it is unlikely that any such attempt would
have been considered not a threat to both the Jewish government, the
leaders of the Jewish tribes, and the Romans alike.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
--- In novaroma@--------, "Mill--------nsen" <mill--------h...> wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> In the first place it's indeed quite difficult to say who really
was to blame. I guess that it was a matter of wrong time, wrong place
( or not)...
> IMHO the only thing the romans wanted was peace (Pax Romana)and
regular taxpayers.( so political, military and "financial" stability).
> I don't think that the romans (at first) were not very interested
in this "fool" from Nazareth (there were more"preachers"/rabbi's like
him) and since he never preached revolution against the romans, they
probably sat and watched it. Besides Jesus himself even said: "give
to Caesar what belongs to Ceasar" ( Math.22: 17-21 , hope I
translated it correct.)
>
> I think that the romans started to get more involved in this story
at the very moment when the Highpriests started complaining and
suggested that this man from Nazareth was about to destabilize
society.( of course they complained because those were the people who
were fiercely attacked by Jesus, right?) So what were the romans to
do...I guess it was all a political matter and choice...sacrificing
this "harmless fool" or more problems with the religious and local
authorities? The choice would be easy...
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Agrippina Iulia Germanica
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma at Pennsic |
| From: |
margali <margali@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:20:12 -0400 |
|
I am going to be at Pensic, but pretty much only the middle
weekend [the job hunting thing - I am in a sticky part of the
interview cycle and can't guarentee exactly what is going on ;-(]
Margali
Hyapatia Asinai Margali
--
~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
in re Pennsic
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] An Encouraging Incident... |
| From: |
margali <margali@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:25:02 -0400 |
|
Only editor pro temps ... And I knew that some Nova Romans were
going to the war, it was mentioned onlist - that's why I took
copies of the newsletter up with me ;-) [well, also to give out
to lure people in - but then agaion I am in Egressus, so I can do
that ;-)]
And that was no friend, that was my husband [rimshot ;-0]
and he will be joining shortly ;-)
margali
Hyapatia Asinia Margali
~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
Quoth Marcus Cassius Julianus
> "Excuse me sir," the woman said, (looking at me in sandals, and tunica held
> at the shoulder with fibulae) "Are you dressed as a Roman?" I of course said
> that I was.
>
> "Then you should have a copy of this newsletter!" she said, holding out a
> copy. "It's from an organization called Nova Roma!"
>
> It turned out to be a brand new newsletter for the Nova Britannia Provincia,
> which I hadn't seen yet, and it turned out that the lady was Hyapatia Asinia
> Margali, it's new editor. :)
> Hypatia Margali and her friend,
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
"Milly Jansen" <millys2@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:56:54 +0200 |
|
Salve!
>From: "Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
>Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:55:06 -0000
>
>Salvete,
>
>While I'm anything but a historian regarding the life of Jesus and
>affairs in the Roman Province of Judea, I believe there may have been
>more to the Roman view of the situation. They may indeed have thought
>Jesus a "fool", but they might not have considered him harmless.
>
>The Jews had a long tradition of "Messianic" prophesy before the time
>of Jesus. One of the things the Messiah was supposed to do was free
>the Jews from foreign dominion and, well, put them "back on top" by
>repairing their bond as the "chosen people" with Jehovah Yahweh.
>
>While I have no textual evidence to cite, I believe that Jesus was in
>fact one of the people who "deliberately" tried to play in to earlier
>prophecies of the Messiah. Riding into Jerusalem on an ass, for
>instance, was one of the things that the Messiah was supposed to do.
>(My guess is that it was to show that the Messiah, while a leader,
>would still be humble before God and the Jewish People.) As far as I
>know this action, and a few others, were pretty much part of common
>knowledge at the time.
>
You are right about the ideas on the Messianic Tradition...but there's one
thing one thing I'd like to add to this...Jesus never claimed to be the
Messiah! He prensented himself more like a teacher, a rabbi I guess.
But in the Bible (if one takes it as a completely reliable source for
history) you constantly read stories about a man breaking conventions, old
rules ( set by religion or tradition)and that's something that surely would
have annoyed the religious authorities a great deal.
>Since Jesus did this (and a few other things that I am afraid I do
>NOT have the time to research and present), and because he was
>gathering huge crowds, he was sure to attract the attention of
>officials of almost any stripe.
>
>Considering the environment of the time, it wouldn't have been any
>great reach to assume that Jesus was attempting to fulfill some of
>the more well known prophecies about the Messiah. (Or worse, that he
>might actually BE the Messiah.) And, since everyone knew the Messiah
>was supposed to drastically change the governmental and political
>situation of the Jews, it is unlikely that any such attempt would
>have been considered not a threat to both the Jewish government, the
>leaders of the Jewish tribes, and the Romans alike.
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>
>
>
>--- In novaroma@--------, "Mill--------nsen" <mill--------h...> wrote:
> >
> > Salvete!
> >
> > In the first place it's indeed quite difficult to say who really
>was to blame. I guess that it was a matter of wrong time, wrong place
>( or not)...
> > IMHO the only thing the romans wanted was peace (Pax Romana)and
>regular taxpayers.( so political, military and "financial" stability).
> > I don't think that the romans (at first) were not very interested
>in this "fool" from Nazareth (there were more"preachers"/rabbi's like
>him) and since he never preached revolution against the romans, they
>probably sat and watched it. Besides Jesus himself even said: "give
>to Caesar what belongs to Ceasar" ( Math.22: 17-21 , hope I
>translated it correct.)
> >
> > I think that the romans started to get more involved in this story
>at the very moment when the Highpriests started complaining and
>suggested that this man from Nazareth was about to destabilize
>society.( of course they complained because those were the people who
>were fiercely attacked by Jesus, right?) So what were the romans to
>do...I guess it was all a political matter and choice...sacrificing
>this "harmless fool" or more problems with the religious and local
>authorities? The choice would be easy...
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Agrippina Iulia Germanica
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
_________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] NR Coins |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:46:07 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Ave Cassius,
I received my coins and they are magnificent. You should be very proud. I think they will make great gifts for any holiday.
My family made their living from numismatics when I was growing up and I have seen a lot of new issue medallions and such. I can safely say that these coins are of the highest quality and beauty. Bravo! I can't wait to see the next beauties you come up with. They were certainly worth the wait.
Vale, Maximina
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|
