Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] An Encouraging Incident...
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:11:49 -0500

Ave Cassius!!!

cassius622@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> Yesterday, Patricia Cassia and I went to an SCA event
> (excision of very heart warming story)
> My thanks also to Marcus Minucius Audens, who has been
> doing a wonderful job as Proconsul of Nova Britannia
> Provincia, and to everyone he has chosen as legates and
> officers of the Provincia. With a great newsletter going
> and folks enthused enough to talk about Nova Roma, I
> believe we'll do very well indeed! :)
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul
>

<VBG> I'm smiling so wide it almost hurts!
Bravo, bravo indeed.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives et Paterfamilias
Quæstor, Legate et Dominus Sodalis
Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/
The Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] PROPRAETOR HISPANIAE
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, M. Salix Vigilius.

A belated Congratulations on your appointment!

I am certain that your Provincia will grow and prosper with you at the helm.

Vale, Maximina Octavia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Byzantine Empire/Christianity
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:42:54 -0700 (PDT)

Teleri ferch Nyfain <rckovak@--------> wrote:
<<Maximina Octavia wrote:
We have more chance of understanding the man from Mars that we do the Roman
mind or any ancient mind. Our comprehension cannot come close to
understanding the collective consciousness of a nation and its people from
so long ago.>>

I keep hearing this & just wonder why so many historians etc think that
people's psyches were so different just because they lived long ago. Notice
I said psyches, NOT beliefs etc. Different societies bring thier children
up to believe differently. That would be why "universal morality" is so
hard to define, even with only contemporary societies, since a vast
difference exists in our modern world. Throw in the ancients and no matter
what you feel must be "beyond question evil" some society now or in history
will have practised this and felt it to be morally correct.

Ave Helena,

Maximina: Current "universal Morality" practiced by almost all modern psyches and faiths is not "hard to define" and most would agree that 1- murder is wrong, 2- stealing is wrong, 3- bearing false witness is wrong, 4- adultery is wrong, 5-rape is wrong etc, etc. Many of these things were considered wrong in ancient times. It is the context that matters. Incest was o.k in Egypt and frowned upon in Rome (although it often occurred). Rape was o.k. of an enemies' wife, but not in one's own societal stucture. Adultery was o.k. for Caesars, but not their wives or daughters.

Because someone practiced what we consider evil today, does not mean it was not considered evil by a majority of a population in ancient times. For instance, persecution of a people because of their faith may have been morally o.k. with the persecutors, but I doubt that it was "morally correct" with the people being persecuted. Sometimes the interpretation of morality is left in the hands of the few for the many to suffer.

Helena: But that is not the same as saying their brains don't work like ours, or
that psychologically they functioned differently. If you study the reasons,
for instance, that the Aztecs sacrificed so many victims in the way they
did, it makes sense psychologically. Nothing alien. Just programming &
conditioning.
So, the only barrier to figuring out how to "think like a Roman" is to
figure out why they did what they did.

Maximina: This is my point. *Why* I did not say that their brains did not function the same as ours. However, actions that the Romans took in ancient times, we cannot fully understand as we are not them. Your reaction or mine to a live newborn being flung upon a dung heap in the middle of town is going to be (at least I hope so) one of shock and dismay. It was more than "programming" that led some families to do this. Necessity and the value of women did. Yes, this makes sense on an intellectual level, however, we cannot, no matter how hard we try, understand this action at its deepest core level.

Helena: And there certainly seems to be a plethora of philosophical texts helping us
out there. More than any other ancient culture, I would think.

Maximina: Yes, there may be a plethora of philisophical and historical texts and most are written by people of ancient times with their own agendas and slant on the situations, just as most texts are written today. The more archaelogical *evidence* that comes to light, the more we will get closer to the truth. I can see that historical text books today in America have altered drastically since I was in grammar school. Texts were mostly written by Anglo-Saxons (and I am one) with their own agenda or who did not know better. I can never imagine what it must have been like to be Jewish or Black and read the same text that I read as a Gentile or White.

If the situation were reversed, what do you think the Romans would think about us? Perhaps they would think the world had gone mad, people with compassion, couples kissing in public, no Vestal virgins, women allowed to sit in the front row of a football game, etc. you get the picture.

Helena: Maximina, So yes, our comprehension can come very close to "getting it".
Oh, & this does not even address something a lot of us Pagans believe in,
which is reincarnation. LOL

Helena/Teleri

I too, consider myself a pagan or Christo/Pagan (I do beleive in G-d), but I can hardly imagine what it meant on a personal level to each and every Roman or Rome as a collective conciousness. We are not even certain of the correct posture when worshiping. My point is that we have barely scratched the surface of "Knowing the Roman Mind". It would be arrogant and pompous for me to even suggest that I do. It is like an inside joke, unless one were there or inside it just is not going to be funny.

I,however, see that your heart and mind appear to be in the right place. I agree that we are lucky to have the evidence that we do in order to help us better understand one another. I thank you for writing your opinion and always welcome you to do so in response to my messages. Be Well.

Vale, Maximina Octavia

Helena/Teleri

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1538
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:31:07 -0700 (PDT)

David Wolfman <dwolfman@--------> wrote:
Salve,
I would like to point out something. Language is a very powerful tool. Used
with care it can enlighten, but it can also unintentionally stir dissention.

Avete M. Lupis et Omnes,

I must say that I primarily agree with your "epistle" as you call it except for the above statement regarding dissension. Thank you for bringing it up.

I think dissension is one of the highest virtues. (You may have noticed this from some of my messages.) It may not be considered a Roman Virtue, however, I think we owe it to ourselves to consider what this word has meant to many a civilization and religion living under tyrany.

IMHO, writing and speaking as a dissident promotes change, honesty, and brings often much needed new perspective on an issue.

Where would the Jews, African-Americans, Christians, *all* Americans, Russians, and many other peoples be without dissension? Some people are expessing dissenion to promote a better life for citizens of their country and some countries and people are still suppressing dissidents. (There may even be Citizens at NR who wish to supress me, Imagine!)

For instance, the NR Main List, just to name one list of many, clearly shows, IMHO, that dissension (particularly passionate dissension) removes its members from their safe, comfortable easy chair of perceived Roman values and lifestyle. The results of this phenomena is predictable. Hurt feelings, defensiveness, and rage surface.

I beg that we take these so-called negative feelings and use them for personal growth fertilizer. (LOL) Yes, not very eloquent, however, this illustrates my point. IMHO again, I think the Romans would laugh themselves silly at the thin skin exhibited by Nova Romans. As if being civil was the main thing on their minds (not to presume). Evidence clearly shows that you can be dignified and with a smile on your face and soft words stab your Caesar to death.

Are we so worried about appearances that we forget what is in the hearts and minds of all Nova Romans (not to presume)? Truly, I believe nearly everyone at NR wants what is best for NR and its citizens. (My humble, naive opinion).

Certain recent events have prompted this message, and I hope that my dissension is taken in the spirit with which it is given, for the betterment of Nova Roma and myself.

Valete, Maximina Octavia

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana]: New page about Domestic Roman Sacrifice
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:41:06 +0100

Salvete omnes

A new page about domestic roman sacrifice has been added to the NR web site
at
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/DomesticSacrificeTemplate.html

It is also accessible from
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/rites_and_rituals.html

A page on daily rituals is also planned for the near future, as well as some
examples of sacrifice scripts composed for public NR events.

Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	Erik van der Heijden <e.vd.heijden@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:44:41 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

First let me thank both Agrippina Iulia Germanica and Marcus
Cassius Julianus for their contribution.

I agree with Agrippina Iulia that the Romans were primarily
interested in political, economical en military stability in
their Empire. As long as a group (be it political, social,
cultural, religious etc) posed no threat to society, they
pretty much left it alone. But the christians placed
themselves deliberately outside this social and political
order. They weren't the least interested in making some
small efford to join in, but rather kept aside from society
and segregated themselves from it in a what you might call
obstinate way.

This negative attitude towards Romans and their Empire can
be traced back to Jesus. I agree with Marcus Cassius that he
wasn't the harmless fool he was potrayed to be in later
centuries. Let us nog forget that the bible is not a
objective sorce of information on this subject. It has been
written by christians and has als been re-written in later
days by those who had every interest in making Jesus look
like some kind of Ghandi-figure.

There can be found traces of a not so peacefull and
anti-violent Jesus if you look at the bible more carefully.
Marcus Cassius is wright, in my opinion at least, when he
says that Jesus deliberately adopted the existing
Messiah-tradition and used it to bring politcal freedom to
Judea in more ways then just a non-violent, religious one.

Otherwise, why would the Romans have acted the way they did
and sent Jesus to death? Most likely because he wasn't the
harmless rabbi he was said to be, but because he was a
Jewish freedom fighter who gathered huge masses around him
for a real political and military struggle.

I know this might sound a bit strange to some, or even
blasphemous, but in understanding Jesus and the role he
played, you shouldn't just look at the bible and take it for
granted. You should also look at other historical data such
as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi manuscripts etc.
This could well change your vews, it centainly changed mine.

Valete,

Marcellus Decianus Batavius

> Salve!
>
>
> >From: "Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
> >Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:55:06 -0000
> >
> >Salvete,
> >
> >While I'm anything but a historian regarding the life of
> Jesus and
> >affairs in the Roman Province of Judea, I believe there
> may have been
> >more to the Roman view of the situation. They may indeed
> have thought
> >Jesus a "fool", but they might not have considered him
> harmless.
> >
> >The Jews had a long tradition of "Messianic" prophesy
> before the time
> >of Jesus. One of the things the Messiah was supposed to
> do was free
> >the Jews from foreign dominion and, well, put them "back
> on top" by
> >repairing their bond as the "chosen people" with Jehovah
> Yahweh.
> >
> >While I have no textual evidence to cite, I believe that
> Jesus was in
> >fact one of the people who "deliberately" tried to play
> in to earlier
> >prophecies of the Messiah. Riding into Jerusalem on an
> ass, for
> >instance, was one of the things that the Messiah was
> supposed to do.
> >(My guess is that it was to show that the Messiah, while
> a leader,
> >would still be humble before God and the Jewish People.)
> As far as I
> >know this action, and a few others, were pretty much part
> of common
> >knowledge at the time.
> >
>
>
> You are right about the ideas on the Messianic
> Tradition...but there's one
> thing one thing I'd like to add to this...Jesus never
> claimed to be the
> Messiah! He prensented himself more like a teacher, a
> rabbi I guess.
> But in the Bible (if one takes it as a completely reliable
> source for
> history) you constantly read stories about a man breaking
> conventions, old
> rules ( set by religion or tradition)and that's something
> that surely would
> have annoyed the religious authorities a great deal.
>
>
>
>
> >Since Jesus did this (and a few other things that I am
> afraid I do
> >NOT have the time to research and present), and because
> he was
> >gathering huge crowds, he was sure to attract the
> attention of
> >officials of almost any stripe.
> >
> >Considering the environment of the time, it wouldn't have
> been any
> >great reach to assume that Jesus was attempting to
> fulfill some of
> >the more well known prophecies about the Messiah. (Or
> worse, that he
> >might actually BE the Messiah.) And, since everyone knew
> the Messiah
> >was supposed to drastically change the governmental and
> political
> >situation of the Jews, it is unlikely that any such
> attempt would
> >have been considered not a threat to both the Jewish
> government, the
> >leaders of the Jewish tribes, and the Romans alike.
>
>
> >
> >Valete,
> >
> >Marcus Cassius Julianus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In novaroma@--------, "Mill--------nsen" <mill--------h...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Salvete!
> > >
> > > In the first place it's indeed quite difficult to say
> who really
> >was to blame. I guess that it was a matter of wrong time,
> wrong place
> >( or not)...
> > > IMHO the only thing the romans wanted was peace (Pax
> Romana)and
> >regular taxpayers.( so political, military and
> "financial" stability).
> > > I don't think that the romans (at first) were not very
> interested
> >in this "fool" from Nazareth (there were
> more"preachers"/rabbi's like
> >him) and since he never preached revolution against the
> romans, they
> >probably sat and watched it. Besides Jesus himself even
> said: "give
> >to Caesar what belongs to Ceasar" ( Math.22: 17-21 , hope
> I
> >translated it correct.)
> > >
> > > I think that the romans started to get more involved
> in this story
> >at the very moment when the Highpriests started
> complaining and
> >suggested that this man from Nazareth was about to
> destabilize
> >society.( of course they complained because those were
> the people who
> >were fiercely attacked by Jesus, right?) So what were the
> romans to
> >do...I guess it was all a political matter and
> choice...sacrificing
> >this "harmless fool" or more problems with the religious
> and local
> >authorities? The choice would be easy...
> > >
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Agrippina Iulia Germanica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
>
>
> _
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>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Blaming Romans et Jews
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:16:40 -0000

Salvete Mari Corneli, Marce Cassi et Omnes:

>>BTW, another of our posters commented on a Good Friday ritual were
people in the nave of a Catholic Church "play" a part in the liturgy.
Not only does this deviate from the Mass, it deviates from any
liturgical act of the Church.<<

Marius Cornelius, I believe the poster may be referring to the re-
enactment of "The Passion" where various narators, including the
Priest, take certain parts, and the rest of the congregation play
the role of the crowd.

>>You are right about the ideas on the Messianic Tradition...but
there's one thing one thing I'd like to add to this...Jesus never
claimed to be the Messiah!<<

Marcus Cassius, the is a gospel scene (I believe common to all four)
where Jesus, at Caesaria Phillipi, asks the Aposles, "Who do you say
I am?" Peter replies, "The Messiah, the Son of the living God" (from
memory, may not be exact). Jesus replies, "No man has revealed this
to you, but my Father in Heaven".

In veneratio et civiliatas.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem X Kalendas Sextilias (July 23rd)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:13:28 +0100

Salvete

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.

Today is the Neptunalia, a festival in honour of Neptunus, the God of all
the fresh water, from rivers, from springs, etc.. The Neptunalia comes in
the hottest days of Summer, when water is needed most. Identified with the
Greek Poseidon, Neptunus has extended his power to rule over the Seas.
Little is know about the ceremonies of the Neptunalia. Today, arbours
('umbrae') are made from leaves, presumably to protect the worshippers from
the hot sun of July. Probably this was also the aniversary of the dedication
of an altar of Neptunus, which stood near the Circus Flaminius, and which is
first mentioned in 206 BCE. Probably this was celebrated with the sacrifice
of a bull, as Neptunus, Mars and Apollo were the only gods who could receive
this victim.
The Neptunalia is also mentioned in the Feriale Duranum, which lists the
public festivals celebrated already during the IIIrd century AD, by the
Cohors XX Palmyrenorum which garrisoned Dura Europos in Syria. According to
this document, Neptunus is offered a supplication ('supplicatio') ritual,
which was an expiatory ritual, in which the Gods were entreated to have
mercy of the suppliants and/or to stop a situation of crisis (epidemics, a
powerful enemy, drought, etc.). In the supplicatio, "the people betake
themselves to prayers; they with their wives and children were ordered to go
as suppliants and entreat the gods to be gracious. Summoned by public
authority to do what each man's misery was constraining him to do, they
crowded all the temples. Prostrate matrons, sweeping with their dishevelled
hair the temple floors, were everywhere imploring pardon from offended
heaven, and entreating that an end might be put to the pestilence" ([Livius,
Ab Urbe Condita, 3.7.8]). Boys and girls who still had father and mother
('patrimi et matrimi') sang hymns to call the piety of the gods. Men holding
a laurel branch and crowned with laurel leaves offered incense and wine to
the gods, who were often reclining on thir cushions ('pulvinaria'). During
the Imperial period, the 'supplicatio' lost its expiatory character and
became a common type of honour paid to the gods, now limited to the solemn
offering of incense and wine. This is probably the rite referred in the
Feriale Duranum.

The month of Quinctilis is sacred to Iuppiter. It was renamed Iulius in 44
BCE in honour of the deified C. Iulius Caesar.

Dii vos bene ament
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem X Kalendas Sextilias (July 23rd)
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:33:39 -0400

Yippeeeeeee!
An excuse to go to the beach - I have to pour a nice libation
into the surf! [anybody else get the little 6 oz bottles of wine
to use as libations? They work great - 1 goblet full, enough to
libate and some left for my profanation ;-)
margali
Hyapatia Asinia Margali
--
~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
Quoth Antonius Gryllus Graecus Pontifex

> Today is the Neptunalia, a festival in honour of Neptunus, the God of all
> the fresh water, from rivers, from springs, etc.. The Neptunalia comes in
> the hottest days of Summer, when water is needed most. Identified with the
> Greek Poseidon, Neptunus has extended his power to rule over the Seas.

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Subject:	[novaroma] My Absence
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:37:28 -0700 (PDT)

Once again, I've been away without any real word to
any of you. I apologize. I recently was struck with
illness, bad enough to spend a few days in the
hospital recovering. I am still not 100%, but feeling
better. I'll be lurking a while longer as I get my
strength back.

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

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Subject:	[novaroma] Jewish Study
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:10:53 -0400 (EDT)

Legatus Dalmaticus;

Sir;

I hope that in my vote not to approve the Jewish Study Sodalitas, my
reasons were made clear in my explanation. The concerns of the College
of Pontiffs must be addressed, and the long term argument by some
members of the proposed Sodalitas on the floor of the Senate has not
particularly helped the case. I have addressed that view personnally,
and I now say to you, that it is my belief that, your basic idea is an
excellent one. I will support the idea fully, when the concerns of the
Pontifex Maximus and the College of Pontiffs are laid to rest.

I further offer to you sir, any abilities or services at my command
(such as they may be) to assist you and your group to hastening that
day.

In my view, as I have recently told our Honored Consuls, Communication
is a major part of that program we call Nova Roma, and as such every
nuance of that attribute should be explored. I am not sure of the
concerns of the Pontiffs, and if I may do anything to assist you to lay
thier concerns to rest, I should be happy to do so.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana]: New page about Domestic Roman Sacrifice
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:53:15 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> A new page about domestic roman sacrifice has been added to the NR
> web site
> at
> http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/DomesticSacrificeTemplate.html
>
> It is also accessible from
> http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/rites_and_rituals.html
>
> A page on daily rituals is also planned for the near future, as well
> as some
> examples of sacrifice scripts composed for public NR events.

Absolutely impressive! Please accept my congratulations.
I really liked it very, very much. I will start following your
guidelines for domestic rituals right now.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem X Kalendas Sextilias (July 23rd)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:56:21 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
> observance on which no legal action or public business can take
> place.

<<snipped>>

Once again, congratulations for your work, Antoni Grylle, and a
question.
Do you have these commentaries on each day's significance stored
somewhere? Are they accessible online?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] E-mail Virus Warning and Fix from gwmetz & legionxxiv
From:	"LegionXXIV" <legionXXIV@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:47:10 -0400

I have been infected by an e-mail worm virus W32/Sircam@mm
which mass-mails from your address book.

If you received the file HughD "Hi How are you".

DELETE IT !!! It was sent by an e-mail virus worm.
I have removed it from my machine.

If you opened or attempted to open the file you should re-boot
and then go to

http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/FixSirc.com

and download the correction tool and let it run.

My apologies on this. I do not usually open attachments;
but this one fooled me as it may have you; because it seemed
to be coming from someone I knew and had had previous contact.

Sorry for the trouble and I hope the above fix works for you.

George Metz aka Gallio Marsallas Legion XXIV

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem X Kalendas Sextilias (July 23rd)
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:54:59 -0000

Salve Propraetor Gnaee Salix Astur

> Once again, congratulations for your work, Antoni Grylle, and a
> question.
Thank you. But you don't need to thank as I do it for my pleasure as
well, and everything that contributes to the recovery of the Religio
gives me a great joy.

> Do you have these commentaries on each day's significance stored
> somewhere? Are they accessible online?
They are still in an email folder, which I am still completing and
correcting. They will gradually make it into the online calendar of
Nova Roma. For example, the month of January is already complete.

Vale bene et gratias
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans et Jews
From:	"Milly Jansen" <millys2@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:09:10 +0200

>From: ksterne@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Blaming Romans et Jews
>Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:16:40 -0000
>
>Salvete Mari Corneli, Marce Cassi et Omnes:
>
> >>BTW, another of our posters commented on a Good Friday ritual were
>people in the nave of a Catholic Church "play" a part in the liturgy.
>Not only does this deviate from the Mass, it deviates from any
>liturgical act of the Church.<<
>
>Marius Cornelius, I believe the poster may be referring to the re-
>enactment of "The Passion" where various narators, including the
>Priest, take certain parts, and the rest of the congregation play
>the role of the crowd.
>
> >>You are right about the ideas on the Messianic Tradition...but
>there's one thing one thing I'd like to add to this...Jesus never
>claimed to be the Messiah!<<
>
>Marcus Cassius, the is a gospel scene (I believe common to all four)
>where Jesus, at Caesaria Phillipi, asks the Aposles, "Who do you say
>I am?" Peter replies, "The Messiah, the Son of the living God" (from
>memory, may not be exact). Jesus replies, "No man has revealed this
>to you, but my Father in Heaven".

Salvete!

Agrippina Iulia:First I'd like to say that it was not Marcus Cassius who
made that remark whether Jesus was or wasn't the Messiah, but me, Agrippina
Julia who said it. To the question whether he was the Messiah I think
everybody should have his/her own opinion on that and I hereby say that I do
respect those who think he was. Look, we can start a whole theological
discussion whether those words in this part of the gospel you refer to
really has been said ( or that this is a case of
"redaktionsgeschichte")...but I don't think that would be very interesting
after all.

The only points I was trying to make is 1) Jesus never said explicitely: "I
AM the Messiah" , and 2) I don't think it would be easy (or right) to say:
the Jews are responsible or the Romans are responsible for Jesus'death.

Valete!

Agrippina Iulia Germanica

>
>In veneratio et civiliatas.
>
>Valete,
>Gaius Popillius Laenas
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: ATTN [Religio Romana]: New page about Domestic Roman Sacrifice
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:04:11 -0000

Salve iterum Propraetor Gnaee Salix Astur

> Absolutely impressive! Please accept my congratulations.
> I really liked it very, very much. I will start following your
> guidelines for domestic rituals right now.
Just as an advice, don't get bogged for trying to follow the complete
procedure on a daily basis (e.g. if the sacrifice is small, there is
no need for a Praefatio). As I say in the introduction only a more
solemn sacrifice performed in some special date or out of some
special need would follow all the phases. Daily rites were usually
more simple (e.g. SIMPLE prayer and/or incense offering on the
morning and evening, with additional SIMPLE offerings of food and
wine to the Lares Familiares performed during meals).

Vale bene amice
Graecus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans et Jews
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:25:03 -0000

Salve Agrippina Iulia

>>The only points I was trying to make is 1) Jesus never said
explicitely: "I AM the Messiah" , and 2) I don't think it would be
easy (or right) to say: the Jews are responsible or the Romans are
responsible for Jesus'death.<<

Please don't misunderstand me. I did not intend to make a case for
Christianity or any other issue. I was just making some observations.

Your point #1 is a fact. I was just pointing out what I feel is the
point in the Gospels where he comes the closest.

I agree wholeheartedly with your point #2.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem X Kalendas Sextilias (July 23rd)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:45:38 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Pontifex Antoni Gylle Graece.

--- amg@-------- wrote:
> Salve Propraetor Gnaee Salix Astur

Oh, I am not the propraetor of Hispania, thank you ;-). The propraetor
is my amicus et pater Marcus Salix Vigilius; I am just one of his
assitants.

> > Once again, congratulations for your work, Antoni Grylle, and a
> > question.
>
> Thank you. But you don't need to thank as I do it for my pleasure as
> well, and everything that contributes to the recovery of the Religio
> gives me a great joy.

May the Gods give you wealth and ability to perform such a worthy task.

> > Do you have these commentaries on each day's significance stored
> > somewhere? Are they accessible online?
>
> They are still in an email folder, which I am still completing and
> correcting. They will gradually make it into the online calendar of
> Nova Roma. For example, the month of January is already complete.

Perfect! I guess you will place them in the Pantheon once every month
is complete. However, nothing stops you placing them month by month, am
I right?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: ATTN [Religio Romana]: New page about Domestic Roman Sacrifice
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:48:56 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Antoni Grylle Graece.

--- amg@-------- wrote:
> Salve iterum Propraetor Gnaee Salix Astur

Read my other post about this misunderstanding ;-).

> Just as an advice, don't get bogged for trying to follow the complete
> procedure on a daily basis (e.g. if the sacrifice is small, there is
> no need for a Praefatio). As I say in the introduction only a more
> solemn sacrifice performed in some special date or out of some
> special need would follow all the phases. Daily rites were usually
> more simple (e.g. SIMPLE prayer and/or incense offering on the
> morning and evening, with additional SIMPLE offerings of food and
> wine to the Lares Familiares performed during meals).

Oh, yes. Sounds very reasonable to me. I will follow your guidelines
for simple rituals at home, and propose the full ceremonies for the
future provincial ceremonies of Hispania.

Thank you once more.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans et Jews
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:55:10 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, ksterne@b... wrote:
> Salvete Mari Corneli, Marce Cassi et Omnes:
>
> >>BTW, another of our posters commented on a Good Friday ritual were
> people in the nave of a Catholic Church "play" a part in the
liturgy.
> Not only does this deviate from the Mass, it deviates from any
> liturgical act of the Church.<<
>
> Marius Cornelius, I believe the poster may be referring to the re-
> enactment of "The Passion" where various narators, including the
> Priest, take certain parts, and the rest of the congregation play
> the role of the crowd.

Salve, Gai Popilli!

The reenactment of the Passion is the "Via Crucis" I mentioned in my
post. I have never seen it done the way the poster referred to it -
and I have in fact participated in about 8 presentations of it. The
last 4 I have played the part of the Centurio who commands the
soldiers that carry out the crucifixion - and the last time I was
actually wearing a Lorica Hamata, a galea with a crista transversa, a
paenula and caligae... (I'm trying to convince our folks to actually
dress and use language - for the Romans at least - closer to the
historical epoch).

The closest thing would be the Liturgical act of the Seven words,
usually done after the Via Crucis on Good Friday. There is a
recapitulation of the Via Crucis, and some additional material in
preparation for the Easter Vigil. It may be that a distorted and
conflated account of these events is what the poster had heard and was
referring to. I was just trying to clarify what the concept was from
the viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church - and I'll concede up front
that I am not an authoritative voice to that effect :-)

Optime vale, et Iuppiter nos protegas!
Marius Cornelius Scipio

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My Absence
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:14:10 -0700 (PDT)

Here's hoping that you're up and around at 100% soon!

Dalmaticus

--- Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
wrote:
> Once again, I've been away without any real word to
> any of you. I apologize. I recently was struck
> with
> illness, bad enough to spend a few days in the
> hospital recovering. I am still not 100%, but
> feeling
> better. I'll be lurking a while longer as I get my
> strength back.
>
> =====
> Gaia Natalina Casca
> Fremont, California
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

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