Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:41:17 -0300

Marcus Cassius Julianus wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> While I'm anything but a historian regarding the life of Jesus and
> affairs in the Roman Province of Judea, I believe there may have been
> more to the Roman view of the situation. They may indeed have thought
> Jesus a "fool", but they might not have considered him harmless.
>

Salvete,

if he existed what is less than sure, since we have NO record of its
existence which does not come from the sect that worships him.
Flavius Josephus made a fine history of the very period were Jesus is
supposed to have acted: no record at all of any action by a Jesus doing
something similar to what is found in the gospells. Flavius Josephus was
a direct witness (and an actor) of the beginning of the first century.

The gospells were written long after that time (end of the 1st
century/beginning of the 2nd century for the oldest, John much later).

> The Jews had a long tradition of "Messianic" prophesy before the time
> of Jesus. One of the things the Messiah was supposed to do was free
> the Jews from foreign dominion and, well, put them "back on top" by
> repairing their bond as the "chosen people" with Jehovah Yahweh.
>
> While I have no textual evidence to cite, I believe that Jesus was in
> fact one of the people who "deliberately" tried to play in to earlier
> prophecies of the Messiah. Riding into Jerusalem on an ass, for
> instance, was one of the things that the Messiah was supposed to do.
> (My guess is that it was to show that the Messiah, while a leader,
> would still be humble before God and the Jewish People.) As far as I
> know this action, and a few others, were pretty much part of common
> knowledge at the time.
>

The gospells make him appear as fullfilling the Messianic tradition
which is very different, had he really done that some account would have
been found in Josephus which relates many would be Messiahs for the
period (none of them called Jesus).

For the difference in treatment ("persecution") between the jews and
christians, one must remember that while the jews respectfully refused
to participate in the Roman civic cults (something like refusing to
salute the flag today) because their faith forbid to do it. This faith
also stated that they were the choosen people and that they, but not the
non-choosen ones must respect a lot of restrictions/laws. This meant
that they said to the Romans: "we, ethnic jews, cant participate in the
civic cults, you can do what you want", for that they were granted very
early a dispense for not needing to participate (End of 1st century BC).

On the other hand the christians did not only refuse to participate,
they encouraged civil desobediance through their proselitism, they said
out loud: "we, christians by choice, won t participate in the civic
cults and you should not do it and become christians". In this way they
were clearly a danger for Rome not because of their faith but because of
their proselitism which was destroying all the foundations of the
classic cities.

Another intersting point is that in classic times the competition
between cities/states/cultures was along the lines "My god(s) is better
than yours". For example the early romans had the usage of "importing"
foreign gods if a city resisted too long, aknowledging the strength of
that particular protector god. The AT is alos full of that idea with the
god of Israel being greater, more god than the gods of philistines for
instance. The christians wanted to totally break this competition by
proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods, effectively
annihilating the basement of the culture. That is why they were (and
still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating the
cultures and societies of non christians all around the world.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:29:22 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> Marcus Cassius Julianus wrote:
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > While I'm anything but a historian regarding the
> life of Jesus and
> > affairs in the Roman Province of Judea, I believe
> there may have been
> > more to the Roman view of the situation. They may
> indeed have thought
> > Jesus a "fool", but they might not have considered
> him harmless.
> >
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> if he existed what is less than sure, since we have
> NO record of its
> existence which does not come from the sect that
> worships him.
> Flavius Josephus made a fine history of the very
> period were Jesus is
> supposed to have acted: no record at all of any
> action by a Jesus doing
> something similar to what is found in the gospells.
> Flavius Josephus was
> a direct witness (and an actor) of the beginning of
> the first century.
>
> The gospells were written long after that time (end
> of the 1st
> century/beginning of the 2nd century for the oldest,
> John much later).
>
>
> > The Jews had a long tradition of "Messianic"
> prophesy before the time
> > of Jesus. One of the things the Messiah was
> supposed to do was free
> > the Jews from foreign dominion and, well, put them
> "back on top" by
> > repairing their bond as the "chosen people" with
> Jehovah Yahweh.
> >
> > While I have no textual evidence to cite, I
> believe that Jesus was in
> > fact one of the people who "deliberately" tried to
> play in to earlier
> > prophecies of the Messiah. Riding into Jerusalem
> on an ass, for
> > instance, was one of the things that the Messiah
> was supposed to do.
> > (My guess is that it was to show that the Messiah,
> while a leader,
> > would still be humble before God and the Jewish
> People.) As far as I
> > know this action, and a few others, were pretty
> much part of common
> > knowledge at the time.
> >
>
>
> The gospells make him appear as fullfilling the
> Messianic tradition
> which is very different, had he really done that
> some account would have
> been found in Josephus which relates many would be
> Messiahs for the
> period (none of them called Jesus).
>
> For the difference in treatment ("persecution")
> between the jews and
> christians, one must remember that while the jews
> respectfully refused
> to participate in the Roman civic cults (something
> like refusing to
> salute the flag today) because their faith forbid to
> do it. This faith
> also stated that they were the choosen people and
> that they, but not the
> non-choosen ones must respect a lot of
> restrictions/laws. This meant
> that they said to the Romans: "we, ethnic jews, cant
> participate in the
> civic cults, you can do what you want", for that
> they were granted very
> early a dispense for not needing to participate (End
> of 1st century BC).
>
> On the other hand the christians did not only refuse
> to participate,
> they encouraged civil desobediance through their
> proselitism, they said
> out loud: "we, christians by choice, won t
> participate in the civic
> cults and you should not do it and become
> christians". In this way they
> were clearly a danger for Rome not because of their
> faith but because of
> their proselitism which was destroying all the
> foundations of the
> classic cities.
>
> Another intersting point is that in classic times
> the competition
> between cities/states/cultures was along the lines
> "My god(s) is better
> than yours". For example the early romans had the
> usage of "importing"
> foreign gods if a city resisted too long,
> aknowledging the strength of
> that particular protector god. The AT is alos full
> of that idea with the
> god of Israel being greater, more god than the gods
> of philistines for
> instance. The christians wanted to totally break
> this competition by
> proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods,
> effectively
> annihilating the basement of the culture. That is
> why they were (and
> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
> annihilating the
> cultures and societies of non christians all around
> the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.

Salve,

I think this is a harsh and disrespectful statement to
make about Christians. You are categorizing using an
unfortunate choice of words regarding the behavior of
all Christians based on the few who use poor judgment.
Christians are as individual in schools of thought and
modes of behavior as there are versions of the New
Testament (over 5,000 editions). You have obviously
not learned from the examples presented here of the
ramifications that such narrow-minded thinking can
bring about. The discussion on who is to blame and
who isn't for Jesus' crucifixion is a perfect example
of what can be achieved if we open our minds to ideas
other than our own and not prejudge what we do not
understand or have knowledge of. I strongly advise
you to take this course and do more research before
making such debasing remarks. They are an offense to
the intelligent mind and there is no room here for
those without cognizance.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] ~$tting last page right
From:	"Lucius Equitius"<vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:32:33 -0400

Hi! How are you?

I send you this file in order to have your advice

See you later. Thanks

----------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Bashing Christians
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 03:32:54 -0000

Salve Pompeia Antonia Caesar:

Thank you fellow Pompeia for your last post to Limitanus. I agree
with you, and when I read that, no guilt trip intended, I was rather
teary eyed. I have never done such things. I work in the hospital as
a registered nurse and I look after people from many cultures. I
often see to their pastoral needs when they pass on, and I administer
therapeutic, holistic care to all. I respect their beliefs, and I
secure the appropriate pastoral care where it is needed.

I am a Christian, who has had some interesting, well, *vibes*,
affinity to Apollo. I get the distinct impression that the Archer has
some spiritual affection for me, inspite of my branded religion. But I
am not going to push it. I am not getting the feeling I have to, just
from a select few, Limitanus included, who would perhaps benefit from
spending some time on their knees themselves, before they start
accusing, suggesting, admonishing, etc.
I have always had big problems with the very fundamentalist sects of
Christianity, and I have been vocal about them, but all I can do about
that is not behave as they do.

I love this republic and I do what I can to be useful to her.

Limitanus' last remark, was not of Josephus, it was his own baseless
opinion, and I am sure Pompeia, he knows that he made an upsetting
remark........why he made it.

Congratulations, Limitanus, you made me cry. Damn tough to do, I'll
have you know. I once thought you had a morsel of intelligence, once.
And now I discover that you have no heart. Sir, you are in much
worse shape than I am in, I fear.

And Limitanus, you have devoted far more time than I have trying to
implement *your* ideas of radical change, in trying to shove your
views down peoples' throats. I have always been able to agree to
disagree on minor matters. Not a talent of mine, sir, likely a gift.
One you should pray for.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

Now I am waiting for someone to post to tell me dissention is good for
me:)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ~$tting last page right
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:34:28 EDT

helllo,

there wasn't a file attached? what language are you using for these files btw

drusila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: ~$tting last page right
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 03:47:25 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Equitius"<vze23hw7@v...> wrote:
> Hi! How are you?
>
> I send you this file in order to have your advice
>
> See you later. Thanks
>
> ----------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is the Message that the SirCam Virus sends out from an infected
Computer.

Lucius Equitius, you need to check your Computer.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:13:51 -0000

Ave,

In the past Nova Roma has protected Pagans in defence, this action is
clearly defended by the Constitution of Nova Roma. I have supported
such action in the past, and will continue to do so. However, I
believe that if Nova Roma is to survive as a force that unites
Pagans, Jews and Christians that we must be consistent in at least
being civil to all faiths. In this effort, I respectfully request
that our government officials in Nova Roma take appropriate action
against Manius Villius who has clearly shown his anger and
prejudice. I also hope that all of Nova Roma will remember his words
if he ever tries to run for office.

Nova Roma should be a venue where we as people of many faiths can
come together as Nova Romans. And, it is for the continued unity of
Nova Roma that I respectfully and humbly request governmental action
against Manius Villius.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:

<SNIP>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:17:31 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:

SNIP

> The christians wanted to totally break this competition by
> proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods, effectively
> annihilating the basement of the culture. That is why they were (and
> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating the
> cultures and societies of non christians all around the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.

Sir,

Have you no decency.

The Nazi's took the bad example of a few Jews and used it as an excuse
to spread hatred of all the Jews.

The Klan takes the bad actions of a few African Americans and use it
as an excuse for hating all African Americans.

You have shown that the Nazi's and the Klan are your spirital
brothers, by taking the bad examples of a minority of Christians, and
using that to launch a hate filled attack on all Christians.

Manius Villius, considering the ammount of venom that you spread on
this list, I think you would be more at home with the Nazi party,
rather than in Nova Roma

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 01:46:36 EDT

Salve,

In a message dated 7/23/01 9:18:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:

<< Sir,

Have you no decency.

<snipitty snip snip snip>

Manius Villius, considering the ammount of venom that you spread on
this list, I think you would be more at home with the Nazi party,
rather than in Nova Roma

L. Sicinius Drusus >>

That was inappropriate. For one who was so vehement less than two weeks ago,
I would have expected differently. If I recall correctly, and I'm pretty
sure I do, you were very outspoken about the strength of the word "nazi." I
agreed with you then, and I'm a little irritated by your sudden change of
heart now.

Tarquinia Euphemia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Bashing Christians
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:03:15 -0700 (PDT)

> Marcus Cassius Julianus wrote:
> The christians wanted to totally break
> this competition by
> proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods,
> effectively
> annihilating the basement of the culture. That is
> why they were (and
> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
> annihilating the
> cultures and societies of non christians all around
> the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.

Salve,

This preposterous claim is, I hope, not the feeling of
pagan NovaRomans. It is certainly counterproductive
to building an organized society based on the freedoms
we take for granted in our daily lives. I am deeply
insulted.

Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Bashing Christians
From:	"Sokarus Apollonius Callias" <hadescallias@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:54:37 +0200

the man has a point.Conservative christians or narrow minded christians will do thath but open mineded christians will not do that. Its wrong to condem a religion for the wrondoeings of a few even if the rest follows like sheep that they are.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Smith
To: *NR-Main List
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 8:03 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Bashing Christians

> Marcus Cassius Julianus wrote:
> The christians wanted to totally break
> this competition by
> proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods,
> effectively
> annihilating the basement of the culture. That is
> why they were (and
> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
> annihilating the
> cultures and societies of non christians all around
> the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.

Salve,

This preposterous claim is, I hope, not the feeling of
pagan NovaRomans. It is certainly counterproductive
to building an organized society based on the freedoms
we take for granted in our daily lives. I am deeply
insulted.

Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:51:18 -0700 (PDT)

--- CmndrZil@-------- wrote:
> Salve,
>
> In a message dated 7/23/01 9:18:51 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
> << Sir,
>
> Have you no decency.
>
> <snipitty snip snip snip>
>
> Manius Villius, considering the ammount of venom
> that you spread on
> this list, I think you would be more at home with
> the Nazi party,
> rather than in Nova Roma
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus >>
>
> That was inappropriate. For one who was so vehement
> less than two weeks ago,
> I would have expected differently. If I recall
> correctly, and I'm pretty
> sure I do, you were very outspoken about the
> strength of the word "nazi." I
> agreed with you then, and I'm a little irritated by
> your sudden change of
> heart now.
>
> Tarquinia Euphemia
>
I said the term Nazi should be reserved for those who
have earned it. The part you sniped shows that
Limitanus has the same attitude about Christians that
the Nazis have about Jews. a blind hatred of other
ethnic or religious groups is the one factor that
seperates the Nazi's from other statist partys.

Since he wishes to follow an agenda of sreading
hatred, I suggested that he would feel mor e at home
with others who share the view that it's proper to
condem an entire class of people for the actions of
some members of that class.

Do we condem ALL muslams because of the Taliban?
Should the Pagans of today have to answer for the fact
that in the past SOME Pagans practiced Human
Sacrifice?

NO. That is blaming the group for the actions of some
indiviuals in the group, and the Christians are
entittled to the same right, to be judged as
indiviuals.

I do not wish to see Nova Roma degrade into an
Antichristian hate group, so we should show zero
tolarance for attacks like this.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Taking our lessons!
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:48:48 +0300


Subject:	[novaroma] Quo Vadis?
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:55:24 -0000

Salvete,

For those interested, "Quo Vadis?" is on Turner Classic Movies at
7:00 PM CDT tonight. This one was released in 1951 (I don't know if
there are other versions), and I for one, have never seen it in it's
entirety.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Quo Vadis?
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:57:52 -0000

Salvete,

Some additional info:

1896
The Polish writer Henryk Sienkiewicz publishes his novel Quo Vadis?.

1912
The film Quo Vadis?/Where Are You Going?, directed by Enrico
Guazzoni, is released in Italy, based on the book by Henryk
Sienkiewicz, and achieves success worldwide, particularly in the
United States.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:10:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...> wrote:
>>I respectfully request that our government officials in Nova Roma
take appropriate action against Manius Villius who has clearly shown
his anger and prejudice<<.

Salvete Manius Villius Limitanus et Lucius Cornelius et Omnes,

Mani Villi, I have, in the past, tried to give you the benefit of the
doubt as a "dissenter" acting in good faith with perhaps a little
less tact than would be best. Your recent statements in this matter
are "over the line". I call on Manius Villius Limitanus to
publically apologize for his remarks.

Luci Corneli, if Manius Villius does not apologize, I call on you as
Censor to issue the Nota as the appropriate government action, which
is within your power.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taking our lessons!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:36:34 +0200

Avete.....
I've been following the 'religious' discussion with interest...but you
know,I am saddened deeply as I read the ideas telling secretly which
faith was the best between the lines...and amazed to see that in
the 21st c. we are still discussing these...
I wonder how can we live in harmony when we still have no respect
for each others beliefs in Nova Roma?For I am a Muslim who is trying to
learn how to honor our Gods correctly...One day,among us
we may have buddhists who want to follow the same way...you can't
control one's beliefs.. the history of the world has many bitter
examples
of this blind attempt...will we ever take lessons from our past mistakes
and learn to respect every faith?
Valete.....

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
Civis Novae Romae

Salve Honorable Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion!

The problem is already there. ;-) I am a Zen-buddhist. :-)

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taking our lessons!
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:54:23 EDT

In a message dated 7/24/01 8:24:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
kelibol@-------- writes:

> ...will we ever take lessons from our past mistakes
> and learn to respect every faith?
> Valete.....
>
>
>
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
> Civis Novae Romae
>
> Salvete,
> It is human frailty that makes us weak. But we are adults and can
> choose to be better, stronger and wiser. The hard part of life is to be
> willing to set aside the ideas that are in the long run are more harmful
> than useful.

> You are being very brave to explore the Roman faith as a Person Of
> Islamic traditions. I myself have not made a personal statement of faith as
> I no longer have strong views. My passions are directed to more personal
> issues such as a roof over my head and finding joy as I can.

I often think of the Gods as at once Beings and concepts of the Roman
social
> mindset. That may be of some help to you. Know that many of us travel along
> side you on this road. You are not alone and shall never be.
> Pax
> Drusila
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] LIBERTAS et SAPIENTIA
From:	Prometheus <fresco@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:07:22 +0200

Valete cives!

In date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:13:51 -0000 "Robert Woolwine"
<alexious@-------->
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:

In the past Nova Roma has protected Pagans in defence, this action is
clearly defended by the Constitution of Nova Roma. I have supported
such action in the past, and will continue to do so. However, I believe
that if Nova Roma is to survive as that we must be consistent in at
least being civil to all faiths.

Marcus Prometheus:
Personally I don�t think the primary purpose of Nova Roma might be to
be �a force that unites Pagans, Jews and Christians� Still it is an
honourable aspect of openness and as such I also am in favour of it.
Besides this I think we must be civil to all faiths just for the purpose
of civility.
Now the problem is to define civility in our terms, not in the terms
estabilished by absolutistic faiths.
For my point of view civility resides in the way of speaking out your
mind, not in the obligation do not to speak out your mind as it has been
too often required by too many belivers in most faiths.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
In this effort, I respectfully request that our government officials
in Nova Roma take appropriate action against Manius Villius who has
clearly shown his anger and prejudice.
I also hope that all of Nova Roma will remember his words if he ever
tries to run for office.

Marcus Prometheus:
I respecfully request that our government officials in Nova Roma take
appropriate action in favour of the rigth to free (and respectful )
speech of respected citzen Manius Villius Limitaneus who has not shown
any anger or prejudice, but given reasonable and respectful motivation
before concluding with his soveregn opinion:
That is why they were (and still are) so dangerous.
The christians continue annihilating the cultures and societies of non
christians all around the world.
Of course everybody else is in my opinion free to agree or disagree in
public and to comment respectfully about the above, thing which I will
also do in a separate post.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
Nova Roma should be a venue where we as people of many faiths can come
together as Nova Romans

Marcus Prometheus:
Nova Roma should be a venue where also sceptics, agnosticists, atheists,
epicureans, stoics, belivers in deus creator otiosus, rationalists etc,
etc. etc. can come together as Nova Romans if they show due high respect
for RELIGIO ROMANA, and respect for mosaic religion and christian
religion (which does not makes them free from historical psycological,
philosophical, ethical free interpretation, and cannot make themselves
sole judges of what respect is).
Respect is genuinely more than tolerance, and I advocate respect, so
more than tolerance for other�s people opinion, but still it is not
special right to silence criticism.
I respect all other fellow human being in their beliefs, but I don't
avoid studying theories that as believers they find are an offence to
their religion. Minerva goddess of SAPIENTIA would stop protecting me if
I did. And APOLLON god of solar ligth and enlightment also would feel
offended if I didn't respectfully brougth out the findings of my free
reserch, historical, etc. As for LIBERTAS she would be revolted if I
did'nt intervene for a fellow human menaced for using of her divine
gift.
Criticism, the harshest criticism (not seen yet in the words of
Limitaneus) MUST be free as we are citzens here, not slaves of any
church.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
And, it is for the continued unity of Nova Roma that I respectfully and
humbly request governmental action against Manius Villius.

Marcus Prometheus:
Were I not ashamed of writing the word AGAINST a fellow citzen perhaps I
would use it about a citzen showing intolerance of free thinking.
I respectfully and humbly request that no governmental action be taken
against any civis using of his rigth of free speech.

My full solidariety to civis Manius Villius Limitaneus in the name of 2
of my favourite Goddess:
LIBERTAS and SAPIENTIA-MINERVA (together with ROMA and QUIRINUS)

Respectfully,
Marcus Prometheus Decius Golia:

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	"J.M. Osborne" <john@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:19:24 -0500

Last I remember, by allowing thoughts and opinions to be freely expressed,
the public would sometimes be required to "put up" with a few contrary
viewpoints. Attacking Limitanus for his opinions is akin to saying, "we will
not let you think." Now, I am speaking as someone who was raised Southern
Baptist and I'll tell you that I'M NOT happy with Christianity and its
blatant hypocrisy. Loving and benevolent God?! Read the Bible more closely,
if that is your faith, and see the truth.

Limitanus, I support you in your desire to state your opinions. For, when
the day comes that you cannot do that simple act, then surely we are all
doomed.

J.M. Osborne

Robert Woolwine wrote:

> Ave,
>
> In the past Nova Roma has protected Pagans in defence, this action is
> clearly defended by the Constitution of Nova Roma. I have supported
> such action in the past, and will continue to do so. However, I
> believe that if Nova Roma is to survive as a force that unites
> Pagans, Jews and Christians that we must be consistent in at least
> being civil to all faiths. In this effort, I respectfully request
> that our government officials in Nova Roma take appropriate action
> against Manius Villius who has clearly shown his anger and
> prejudice. I also hope that all of Nova Roma will remember his words
> if he ever tries to run for office.
>
> Nova Roma should be a venue where we as people of many faiths can
> come together as Nova Romans. And, it is for the continued unity of
> Nova Roma that I respectfully and humbly request governmental action
> against Manius Villius.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:29:48 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ksterne@-------- [mailto:ksterne@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 9:11 AM
>
> Luci Corneli, if Manius Villius does not apologize, I call on you as
> Censor to issue the Nota as the appropriate government action, which
> is within your power.

Just a point of procedure; nota must be issued "collegially" by the Censors.
That is, they must both do so; Sulla cannot do so on his own, but would have
to do so in conjunction with Cincinnatus.

That being said, I do not believe such would be appropriate in this instance
(although it is, of course, the Censors' decision). While Limitanus'
statements may have offended some here, it is his right to make them. With
respect, the right _not_ to be offended does not trump the right to express
one's opinion. If it did, no one would say much of anything, because someone
can always be found who will be offended by any remark. Deliberate offense
is another story, but I don't think that was the case here. Limitanus'
remarks were not directed at any particular individual, nor did they seem
uncivil or disorderly to me. Unflattering to Christianity? Perhaps.
Subjective? Agreed. But impermissable? No, I cannot agree with that. If that
is Limitanus' interpretation of Christian history, then it is his right to
express it, just as it is the right of others to argue against it.

Indeed, I would rather like to see such a rebuttal, directed not at his
audacity at sending the original post, but on its content. Remember, we gain
infinitely more when we discuss ideas, rather than individuals.

I now await the coming of the end of the world with the certainty of its
imminent arrival. I am actually defending Limitanus. ;-)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taking our lessons!
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

--- Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
<kelibol@--------> wrote:

> will we ever take
> lessons from our past mistakes
> and learn to respect every faith?
> Valete.....
>
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
> Civis Novae Romae
>
> * Sapiens dominabitur astris ! *

Hear! Hear!

L. Cornelius Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taking our lessons!
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:01:36 +0300

At 15:36 24.07.2001 +0200, you wrote:
> Avete.....
> I've been following the 'religious' discussion with
> interest...but you
> know,I am saddened deeply as I read the ideas telling secretly which
> faith was the best between the lines...and amazed to see that in
> the 21st c. we are still discussing these...
> I wonder how can we live in harmony when we still have no respect
> for each others beliefs in Nova Roma?For I am a Muslim who is trying to
> learn how to honor our Gods correctly...One day,among us
> we may have buddhists who want to follow the same way...you can't
> control one's beliefs.. the history of the world has many bitter
>examples
> of this blind attempt...will we ever take lessons from our past mistakes
> and learn to respect every faith?
> Valete.....
>
>
>
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
> Civis Novae Romae
>
>
>Salve Honorable Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion!
>
>The problem is already there. ;-) I am a Zen-buddhist. :-)
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Quaestor of Nova Roma
>Propraetor of Thule
>Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ave Caeso Fabius Quintilianus....

Welcome to the club then...:) Honored to meet you!

Vale bene...

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:27:13 -0000

---Salvete Honoured Consul et Omnes:

I understand that indeed, we would be walking on eggshells if we
worried continually about rubbing people the wrong way about how we
word things, etc., but in this case Limitanus accuses Christians of
trying to destroy nonChristian cultures in the world.

This is not merely "unflattering" to Christians, which in itself is
not a problem, but he is making a blanket accusation about all of the
Christians, including those in NR of the above. This line, honoured
Consul, has no basis in Josephus at all. This was a baseless
accusation, miserably disguised as an opinion.

I would not expect Pagan or Muslims to put up with such blanket
accusations, in the name of "free speech". Free speech goes, atleast
I think to a Roman, with the responsibility of tempering it with a
pinch of truth. Limitanus has failed to do so in the last line of his
dissertation.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ksterne@-------- [mailto:ksterne@--------]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 9:11 AM
> >
> > Luci Corneli, if Manius Villius does not apologize, I call on you
as
> > Censor to issue the Nota as the appropriate government action,
which
> > is within your power.
>
> Just a point of procedure; nota must be issued "collegially" by the
Censors.
> That is, they must both do so; Sulla cannot do so on his own, but
would have
> to do so in conjunction with Cincinnatus.
>
> That being said, I do not believe such would be appropriate in this
instance
> (although it is, of course, the Censors' decision). While Limitanus'
> statements may have offended some here, it is his right to make
them. With
> respect, the right _not_ to be offended does not trump the right to
express
> one's opinion. If it did, no one would say much of anything, because
someone
> can always be found who will be offended by any remark. Deliberate
offense
> is another story, but I don't think that was the case here.
Limitanus'
> remarks were not directed at any particular individual, nor did they
seem
> uncivil or disorderly to me. Unflattering to Christianity? Perhaps.
> Subjective? Agreed. But impermissable? No, I cannot agree with that.
If that
> is Limitanus' interpretation of Christian history, then it is his
right to
> express it, just as it is the right of others to argue against it.
>
> Indeed, I would rather like to see such a rebuttal, directed not at
his
> audacity at sending the original post, but on its content. Remember,
we gain
> infinitely more when we discuss ideas, rather than individuals.
>
> I now await the coming of the end of the world with the certainty of
its
> imminent arrival. I am actually defending Limitanus. ;-)
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:34:18 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:

>>While Limitanus' statements may have offended some here, it is his
right to make them. With respect, the right _not_ to be offended does
not trump the right to express one's opinion.<<

Salvete,

After reading and thinking over some of the subsequent posts as well
as that of our Consul above, I must admit Limitanus is within his
rights to speak his mind even if he does so without tact or
consideration for others.

I herby withdraw my call for Nota, but ask again for apology from
Limitanus.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Senatorial Scriba
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:33:28 -0400 (EDT)

Nova Roma Citizens;

I come before you to announce the establishment of a Senatorial Staff of
Advisors to assist me in carrying out my duties in the Senate, both as a
ProConsul and as Senate Respondorum. The purpose of this staff will be
to advise me in regard to the geographical areas of the world with which
I am less familiar than the U.S. Just as Senators in the United States
each have a staff of experts in a variety of areas to advise and gather
information, I believe that the citizens of Nova Roma deserve every
consideration in how I carry out my staff work, and the gathering of new
ideas from eager young people is much sought after.

The position of Senatorial Scriba therefore is an appointment to my
staff alone. It does not confer any Century Points, but it does provide
an opportunity to learn a bit more about Nova Roma's internal affairs
and an avenue to assist the micronation and to make your own ideas felt
and have an impact on the direction in which the micronation moves.

This staff is NOT a group of "clients" as I do NOT have "clients"
attached to me in any way. I have in the past surrounded myself with
clever, intelligent and productive men and women who have served as
members of my staff,

(in reflection of the very wise words of the Amercan Industrialist
Andrew Carnegie who said that such a method was the key to his
successes)

and who for the most part have gained Senatorial and ProPraetor ranks
within Nova Roma in the fullness of time. I am pleased to organize this
Advisory Activity, and I can offer no-one who wishes to enlist therein,
anything other than the following;

----A full work schedule;

----Assurance that your information and ideas will be carefully
considered;

----Verbal recognition of your work and worth to me at the end of the
one year's committment on the Main List, and my personal recommendation
based on your production to or for any position that you believe
yourself qualified for.

In closing, please welcome the first of my carfully selected
staff-------

Scriba Manius Constantinius Serapio of Turin, Italy;

This young gentleman has already provided through me, as Senate
Respondorm, to the NR Senate, a great deal of valuable information that
I found extremely useful in the last Senate voting session.

Since my Staff is being established for the benefit of the Citizens of
Nova Roma, I make the above announcement for your edification and ask
that you welcome my young friend to his new and hopefully rewarding
task.

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Senate Respondorum
Quaestor, Senator, ProConsul and Praefectus Castorum -- Sodalitas
Militarium -- Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:21:04 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Pompeia Cornelia,

> I would not expect Pagan or Muslims to put up with such blanket
> accusations, in the name of "free speech". Free speech goes, atleast
> I think to a Roman, with the responsibility of tempering it with a
> pinch of truth. Limitanus has failed to do so in the last line of his
> dissertation.

As a pagan, I would counter such accusations by arguing the opposite and
providing historical evidence to support that position. I certainly
wouldn't call for censorship or punishment.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:09:54 US/Central

Salve Pompeia Cornelia et salvete omnes

I respectfully disagree with you on this matter, Pompeia, and I shall endeavor
to show you why. Please don't take this as a blanket support of blunt,
controversial, and hurtful statements (though I have been guilty of making them
at times), or as support for M' Villius' opinion on this matter. It is not
intended as such.

> I understand that indeed, we would be walking on eggshells if we
> worried continually about rubbing people the wrong way about how we
> word things, etc., but in this case Limitanus accuses Christians of
> trying to destroy nonChristian cultures in the world.

Inasmuch as a culture's religion is often quite central to that culture's
identity, his accusation has some merit. Christianity is a missionary
religion, and its central tenets compel its members to spread the faith and
convert others. Therefore, as Christians in general seek to convince others
that their faiths are erroneous, they also, to a degree, seek to convince
others that their cultures are erronrous to the degree that they are based on
non-Christian beliefs. After all, can you truly say that Japanese culture
would still be Japanese culture if Shintoism were excised from it?

> This is not merely "unflattering" to Christians, which in itself is
> not a problem, but he is making a blanket accusation about all of the
> Christians, including those in NR of the above. This line, honoured
> Consul, has no basis in Josephus at all. This was a baseless
> accusation, miserably disguised as an opinion.

As you can see from my argument above, his accusation is not entirely
baseless. It is certainly true that Christian states have a less than stellar
track record when it comes to toleration (they are, of course, not alone in
this distinction), and it is obviously true that M' Villius was simply stating
his opinion, albeit with a dearth of tact.

> I would not expect Pagan or Muslims to put up with such blanket
> accusations, in the name of "free speech".

Pagans, Muslims, &c put up with exactly the same kind of blanket accusations
all the time, in exactly the name of free speech. Yes, they defend themselves,
which you are quite right to do, but, in a free society, each person must have
the ability to present his or her opinions on any given subject--even if it is
offensive to others.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] Freedom of Speach
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:21:07 -0000

Salvete,

That is why they were (and
still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating the
cultures and societies of non christians all around the world.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus.

This "statement of opinion" is a blanket accusation that the
Christians are currently engaged in the crime of Genocide. This goes
beyond mearly stating an idea, it's out and out slander.

So does freedom of speach mean that anyone can post any lie, any
slander, any form of hate mongering, and we aren't even susposed to
pass judgement on this kind of action? Freedom of speach certainly
does not mean that you will be free of the consequance that others
will find your ideas deplorable, nor does it mean that you forever be
free from the personal judgement of others if you continue to state
these ideas.

Freedom of speach does NOT mean that others are required to listen to
you. It does NOT mean that others are required to give you a forum to
present your ideas in. There is NO freedom to force others to give
you a place to present your ideas. Freedom of speach means you have
the right to say what you wish on YOUR site, not a site belonging to
others.

This forum belongs to the citizens of Nova Roma, and those who wish
to use this forum are bound to follow such regulations as the owners
of the site impose. those who do not care for the regulations are
free to set up another forum and say anything they wish. The
regulations of this forum are contained in the Constitution, and the
edicts that cover the moderation rules. Refusal to follow these rules
is not an impostion on your freedom of speach, rather it is a
protection of the properity rights of the owners of this forum.

The rules of this forum include a ban on "Bashing of any religion"
and I consider it reasonable to consider a statement that all
Christians are guilty of Genocide to be bashing of a religion, and
that the moderators are within thier rights to impose sanctions
against the citizen who made those remarks. The citizens freedom of
speach would cover his sitting up a site that he owns.

The Censors are charged by the Constitution,
"To safeguard the public morality and honor through the collegial
administering of nota"

So it is up to the Censors to decide accusing a large segment of Nova
Roma's population of taking part in Genocide is a violation of the
public morality, and HONOR.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Freedom of Speach
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:09:43 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:21 PM
>
> Freedom of speach does NOT mean that others are required to listen to
> you. It does NOT mean that others are required to give you a forum to
> present your ideas in. There is NO freedom to force others to give
> you a place to present your ideas. Freedom of speach means you have
> the right to say what you wish on YOUR site, not a site belonging to
> others.

Actually, this is incorrect. In Nova Roma, the right to freedom of speech
carries with it "the right to reasonably expect such [public] forums to be
supported by the State." Private individuals are free to set up their own
fora, but the State is obligated to provide fora for all Citizens to use.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senatorial Scriba
From:	TribuneAfricanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:41:24 EDT

Congratulazioni e benvenuto al NOVA Roma Manius Constantinius Serapio.
Proconsul Audens � una persona meravigliosa da funzionare per e sono sicuro
che godrete il vostro lavoro.

Cura dell' introito!
Marcus Scipio Africanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:33:10 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, labienus@t... wrote:
> Salve Pompeia Cornelia et salvete omnes
>
> I respectfully disagree with you on this matter, Pompeia, and I
shall endeavor
> to show you why. Please don't take this as a blanket support of
blunt,
> controversial, and hurtful statements (though I have been guilty of
making them
> at times), or as support for M' Villius' opinion on this matter. It
is not
> intended as such.
>
> > I understand that indeed, we would be walking on eggshells if we
> > worried continually about rubbing people the wrong way about how
we
> > word things, etc., but in this case Limitanus accuses Christians
of
> > trying to destroy nonChristian cultures in the world.

Pompeia:***All Christians, Fortunatus, even us in Nova Roma?
Limitanus states that all Christians are engaged in destructive
behaviour. With respect, Fortunatus, that isn't true. I can say for
myself that I have never tried to impose my opinions on anyone and
that I am respectful of the religions of others...otherwise, why would
I be here? In making such a statement, citizen Limitanus implies
that, well, since all Christians are implementing destruction of
nonChristian cultures, even today, that the few of us here are bent on
destroying the religious and social culture here in NR. Sorry, again,
untrue. And I know you are basically a pretty objective person,
Tribune, just trying to give you my perspective on things.

Outside NR, I have never engaged in any physical activity of
illegal destruction, in the name of religion or otherwise. ***
>
> Inasmuch as a culture's religion is often quite central to that
culture's
> identity, his accusation has some merit. Christianity is a
missionary
> religion, and its central tenets compel its members to spread the
faith and
> convert others. Therefore, as Christians in general seek to
convince others
> that their faiths are erroneous, they also, to a degree, seek to
convince
> others that their cultures are erronrous to the degree that they are
based on
> non-Christian beliefs. After all, can you truly say that Japanese
culture
> would still be Japanese culture if Shintoism were excised from it?
>
> > This is not merely "unflattering" to Christians, which in itself
is
> > not a problem, but he is making a blanket accusation about all of
the
> > Christians, including those in NR of the above. This line,
honoured
> > Consul, has no basis in Josephus at all. This was a baseless
> > accusation, miserably disguised as an opinion.
>
> As you can see from my argument above, his accusation is not
entirely
> baseless. It is certainly true that Christian states have a less
than stellar
> track record when it comes to toleration (they are, of course, not
alone in
> this distinction), and it is obviously true that M' Villius was
simply stating
> his opinion, albeit with a dearth of tact.

****Pompeia: I know the Christian church has been the author of much
destruction throughout the ages and even into the last century. To
think otherwise would be naive. But to blame all Christians,
Fortunatus? I didn't do these things. There is no merit in this.
Otherwise I could blame all Germans for the product of the Third
Reich.
>
> > I would not expect Pagan or Muslims to put up with such blanket
> > accusations, in the name of "free speech".
>
> Pagans, Muslims, &c put up with exactly the same kind of blanket
accusations
> all the time, in exactly the name of free speech. Yes, they defend
themselves,
> which you are quite right to do, but, in a free society, each person
must have
> the ability to present his or her opinions on any given
subject--even if it is
> offensive to others.

Pompeia: I have never made blanket statements about Paganism, such as
"all Pagans are this", "all Pagans are dangerous". In fact, I have
defended Pagans' rights to practice their faith. I am a proponent of
religious freedoms; I just have a differing point of view on some
things...

Please take a moment, honoured Tribune (and I mean honoured) to reread
Limitanus' statement, only insert the word Pagan for Christian where
applicable, and see if it is not more clear as to why I see this as a
personal slur for myself, and for any other peaceable Christian here
on this list.****

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:58:20 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> In the past Nova Roma has protected Pagans in defence, this action
is
> clearly defended by the Constitution of Nova Roma. I have
supported
> such action in the past, and will continue to do so. However, I
> believe that if Nova Roma is to survive as a force that unites
> Pagans, Jews and Christians that we must be consistent in at least
> being civil to all faiths. In this effort, I respectfully request
> that our government officials in Nova Roma take appropriate action
> against Manius Villius who has clearly shown his anger and
> prejudice. I also hope that all of Nova Roma will remember his
words
> if he ever tries to run for office.
>
> Nova Roma should be a venue where we as people of many faiths can
> come together as Nova Romans. And, it is for the continued unity
of
> Nova Roma that I respectfully and humbly request governmental
action
> against Manius Villius.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>

Well spoken, good censor!

For those who have not had the pleasure, Censor Sulla has been very
helpful to me in private E-mail regarding getting my citizenship set
up. I have found him to be consistently helpful, patient, and very
courteous, and would like to thank him publicly for that, and for his
defense of the temperate, tolerant attitude that has been the stated
ideal (and, happily, the normal attitude) here in this forum. I do
believe citizen Manius Villius to have been hasty and non-decorous in
his statements, but I do also have to weigh in with an appreciation
of his right to speak his mind. For that reason, I have mixed
feelings about governmental action. I do think that an apology is in
order, at the very least, as the statements made were virulent enough
to be offensive.

Valete omnes,

R Palaeologus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:04:02 -0300 (ART)

Salvete Quirites

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
escreveu: >
> I said the term Nazi should be reserved for those
> who
> have earned it.

MAIOR: The problem is, who will decide who will be
called nazi? In a short time, everybody will call
anybody as nazi.

> The part you sniped shows that
> Limitanus has the same attitude about Christians
> that
> the Nazis have about Jews.

MAIOR: I didnt agree with everything that Limitanus
posted. And i avoid to use their aggressive tone. But
the Jesuits effectively collaborated to obliterate the
indian culture (in a pacific way), and other groups
enslaved indians, and so on. Here in Brazil, only
recently there are a great effort to preserve the
indian culture.
And remember: the acts of our ancestors are our
heritage, and generate consequences in the present
(and future).

> a blind hatred of other
> ethnic or religious groups is the one factor that
> seperates the Nazi's from other statist partys.

MAIOR: Well, i doesnt saw a general hatred of
christians from Limitanus. In my opinion, you
overreacted.

> I do not wish to see Nova Roma degrade into an
> Antichristian hate group, so we should show zero
> tolarance for attacks like this.

MAIOR: I believe that the tolerance should be in
inverse proportion to the attack.

> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

Vale
M Arminius Maior

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Speach
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:19:44 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@-------->
escreveu: > Salvete,

>> That is why they were (and
>> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
>> annihilating the
>> cultures and societies of non christians all around
>> the world.
>>
>> Vale,
>> Manius Villius Limitanus.
>
> This "statement of opinion" is a blanket accusation
> that the
> Christians are currently engaged in the crime of
> Genocide. This goes
> beyond mearly stating an idea, it's out and out
> slander.

MAIOR: I thing that you are wrong. If you saw what
happened to the Aztec and Inca societies, you can say
that these cultures and societies really destroyed, by
a christian kingdom. But the words and vision of
Limitanus are excessively generic, and perhaps
erroneous, and you collaborate to increase the error.
Limitanus didnt use the word of concept genocide.

> So does freedom of speach mean that anyone can post
> any lie, any
> slander, any form of hate mongering, and we aren't
> even susposed to
> pass judgement on this kind of action?

MAIOR: Of couse not. Everything has their limit.
However, censorship can destroy our liberty of
expression, and we need use other tools to avoid the
"verbal apocalypse".

> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

Vale
M Arminius Maior

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taking our lessons!
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:52:42 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
<kelibol@--------> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Avete.....
> I've been following the 'religious' discussion with
interest...but you
> know,I am saddened deeply as I read the ideas telling secretly
which
> faith was the best between the lines...and amazed to see that in
> the 21st c. we are still discussing these...
> I wonder how can we live in harmony when we still have no
respect
> for each others beliefs in Nova Roma?For I am a Muslim who is
trying to
> learn how to honor our Gods correctly...One day,among us
> we may have buddhists who want to follow the same way...you
can't
> control one's beliefs.. the history of the world has many
bitter
> examples
> of this blind attempt...will we ever take lessons from our past
mistakes
> and learn to respect every faith?
> Valete.....
>
>
>
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
> Civis Novae Romae
>
> * Sapiens dominabitur astris ! *

An admirable and appropriate sentiment, friend. I have to say that I
have enjoyed the discourse up until today (having inadvertently
started the thread rolling with a post questioning when the Roman
Empire truly ended, leading to several return posts postulating that
the physical fall of Rome to Theodoric was superfluous and that
Ancient Rome became something else when it became a Christian nation,
which then morphed into and launched different threads involving
religious belief - a synopsis for those who missed the beginning of
the thread). Until today, I would characterize most of the posts as
moderate in tone, and respectful toward the beliefs and feelings of
others, which was cause for great joy and pride. It's sad that one
individual has chosen to post an opinion, which, IMHO, he has a right
to hold and even to express, but to do so in such a virulently
insulting, disrespectful, and discourteous manner as to inevitably
cause an unhappy reaction. The thing that saddens me the most is that
a thread of conversation that had the potential to continue to
enlighten us all as to our differences (which we should appreciate
and even celebrate), along with our similarities, has now degenerated
into a personal enough issue that no real discourse on the original
issues is now taking place. Maybe this is a time for a coda to the
original thread(s), and as good a place as any to thank all those who
enriched it so intelligently before one person's indecorous comment
effectively killed it.

Valete,

R Palaeologus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taking our lessons!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:21:00 +0200

>>Salve Honorable Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion!
>>
>>The problem is already there. ;-) I am a Zen-buddhist. :-)
>>
>>Vale
>>
>>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>>Quaestor of Nova Roma
>>Propraetor of Thule
>>Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >
>> Ave Caeso Fabius Quintilianus....
>
> Welcome to the club then...:) Honored to meet you!
>
> Vale bene...
>
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

Salve Honorable Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion!

The same to You! :-) I am following the relgious discussion, but I am
absolutely sure that the end of the discussion must be: tolerance and free
speach. Otherwise there is no meaning to create a place of tolerance and
"homefeeling" for the Religio. This is my stand-point. I don't feel good
when someone is critical towards any relgion and the immediately attacked!
I think that criticism must be tolerated. If anybody feels bad about it, I
think we must correct the fellow citizen that seems to be (maybe)
insulting. Tolerance and patience, not agressiveness and recklessness.

I will be gone for more than a week and may not be active in this
discussion for a few weeks.

So I wish You and all Roman citizens a productive discussion during the
following weeks!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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************************************************
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************************************************
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"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:18:32 US/Central

Salve Pompeia Cornelia et salvete omnes

> Pompeia:***All Christians, Fortunatus, even us in Nova Roma?

I was only writing of generalities regarding the Christian faith. With a very
few notable exceptions, the Christians I have met through Nova Roma have been
open-minded people who are willing to overlook the missionary side of their
religion. (Or, perhaps, are of the variety which prefers to convert by good
example.)

> Limitanus states that all Christians are engaged in destructive
> behaviour. With respect, Fortunatus, that isn't true.

Of course it isn't true. However, Limitanus is within his rights to believe
that it's true, and to say so. It is the same principle which allowed
Nerva/Festus to bluntly state with impunity on a number of occasions that the
Roman Gods do not exist. It is the same principle which allowed a civis (I
forget who) to say with impunity that all homosexuals support pedophilia during
the gender edictum brouhaha. The price we pay for free speech is that we must
occasionally listen to distasteful things.

> And I know you are basically a pretty objective person,
> Tribune, just trying to give you my perspective on things.

I understand your perspective quite well. As a pagan, I have been on the
receiving end of exactly this sort of prejudice more than once. However, "It
is thy duty to leave another man's wrongful act there where it is." In other
words, don't try to correct a wrong act with a wrong act simply because you
feel hurt.

> ****Pompeia: I know the Christian church has been the author of much
> destruction throughout the ages and even into the last century. To
> think otherwise would be naive. But to blame all Christians,
> Fortunatus? I didn't do these things. There is no merit in this.
> Otherwise I could blame all Germans for the product of the Third
> Reich.

Of course such thinking is erroneous. One could likewise blame all Romans (and
by extension all modern Roman pagans) for nearly wiping out the Celts.
However, the fact that this is faulty reasoning does not stop humans from
thinking in this fashion. It is far too common to tar all members of a group
with the same brush.

> Pompeia: I have never made blanket statements about Paganism, such as
> "all Pagans are this", "all Pagans are dangerous". In fact, I have
> defended Pagans' rights to practice their faith. I am a proponent of
> religious freedoms; I just have a differing point of view on some
> things...

I have not said--nor do I believe--otherwise.

> Please take a moment, honoured Tribune (and I mean honoured) to reread
> Limitanus' statement, only insert the word Pagan for Christian where
> applicable, and see if it is not more clear as to why I see this as a
> personal slur for myself, and for any other peaceable Christian here
> on this list.****

As I said before, I do see why you see it as a personal slur. I am, as I often
do, attempting to bring the discussion beyond personal pain and knee-jerk
reactions to the impersonal bigger picture and reasoned responses. You see
Limitanus' action as hurtful, and naturally want to stop him from doing it
again. However, if we punish him for stating his opinion, then we will have
opened a door that is better left closed.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

--- M Arminius Maior <marminius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites

> MAIOR: I didnt agree with everything that Limitanus
> posted. And i avoid to use their aggressive tone.
> But
> the Jesuits effectively collaborated to obliterate
> the
> indian culture (in a pacific way), and other groups
> enslaved indians, and so on. Here in Brazil, only
> recently there are a great effort to preserve the
> indian culture.
> And remember: the acts of our ancestors are our
> heritage, and generate consequences in the present
> (and future).

The attack was against *all* Christians, not just the
Jesuits. What have *I* done to obliterate cultures?
What about my 9 year old son? We're Christians. We
also visited Buddhist religious shrines in Korea this
summer, and showed appropriate respects while we were
there. Who did I turn from their culture? Who did my
Grandfather, a devout Christian, turn from their
culture? I can remember in my youth visiting
synogagues and places of worship of other faiths, not
to attack them, but to learn from them and go accept
them.

Where are the Pontiffs in this debate? Doesn't the
Constitution of NovaRoma state that other faiths will
be welcomed as friends? Is this how friends are
treated? "Nova Roma shall approach all other
religions with a syncretistic outlook, offering
friendship to all paths which acknowledge the right of
those who practice and honor the Religio Romana to do
so and respect the beliefs thereof." (Section
VI.B.)Which of the Christians Limitanus slandered
broke this covenant?

I have already called for an apology. I now call for
a Censorial Nota.

Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Speach
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:28:30 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, M Arminius Maior <marminius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@-------->
> escreveu: > Salvete,
>
> >> That is why they were (and
> >> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
> >> annihilating the
> >> cultures and societies of non christians all around
> >> the world.
> >>
> >> Vale,
> >> Manius Villius Limitanus.
> >
> > This "statement of opinion" is a blanket accusation
> > that the
> > Christians are currently engaged in the crime of
> > Genocide. This goes
> > beyond mearly stating an idea, it's out and out
> > slander.
>
> MAIOR: I thing that you are wrong. If you saw what
> happened to the Aztec and Inca societies, you can say
> that these cultures and societies really destroyed, by
> a christian kingdom. But the words and vision of
> Limitanus are excessively generic, and perhaps
> erroneous, and you collaborate to increase the error.
> Limitanus didnt use the word of concept genocide.

DRUSUS: I Am of mixed ancestory, so I am well aware of the effects
that European Colonizatian had on my ancesters. That was blatant
impearlism, and Christanity was no more than a partial excuse for the
theft of the land. there is nothing in Christianity that calls for
expansion through warfare.

The reason I used the term Genocide is Limitanus did in fact make the
charge that the Christians are continuing the practices of the past.
My Ancesters were in fact the victims of a Colonial policy that
included genocidal elements.

Had Limitanus said that Christanity was a cover for a Imperalistic
policy that destroyrd many native cultures, I would have agreed with
him, but he went beyond this laying the blame on Christanity, rather
than Imperalism, and adding the charge that Christians, rather than
Statists acting under the guise of Christanity are continuing this
policy.
>
> > So does freedom of speach mean that anyone can post
> > any lie, any
> > slander, any form of hate mongering, and we aren't
> > even susposed to
> > pass judgement on this kind of action?
>
> MAIOR: Of couse not. Everything has their limit.
> However, censorship can destroy our liberty of
> expression, and we need use other tools to avoid the
> "verbal apocalypse".

DRUSUS:Censorship is banning an idea from being published at all.
Moderation is exercising editorial control on a given site. The
regulations we have now fall in the later catagory.
>
> > Valete,
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Vale
> M Arminius Maior
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:53:46 EDT

Salvete.

As deplorable a way Villius set forth his comments, he is allowed to espouse
his beliefs the same as all of you. Remember his English is not as good as
ours, quite often what he means to say is not what he writes. Also, there is
a grain of truth, however so small, about what he says. Misguided Christians
have destroyed whole civilizations before to make them
conform to their beliefs. Even our own Religio had key elements destroyed
that we are now starting recover. The Church banned plays and excommunicated
Roman actors, who acted in them, since the Bishops felt that such
entertainment were undermining their control of the people.

Remember people, the watchword is tolerance. And until Villius attempts to
achieve power to start persecuting Christians, he is allowed to speak about
what he believes in, while the rest of us shake our heads, and go read
something else.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT)

> That is
> why they were (and
> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
> annihilating the
> cultures and societies of non christians all around
> the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.

I must say that this is a very ill-founded statement
in more ways than one. It is very much a blanket
statement to say that all Christians annihilate
non-Christian cultures and societies. Some do
evangelical work (which is what I assume and hope you
are reffering to as their method of "annihilation",
reather than opression, since the latter is no longer
used by Christians as far as I know) (such as
Jehovah's Witnesses) but certainly not all (I have
never seen or heard of Catholic evangilization).
Also, I must say, that the world would be better off
without certain societies and cultures (would you say
it would be dangerous to annihilate the Nazi Party or
the KKK or the Taliban?)

Valete optime! :->!

Hoping I have not offended anyone,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gens Contacts Needed
From:	TribuneAfricanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:59:32 EDT

I am looking for someone from the following Gens. Please contact me directly.

Gens Silvania

Gens Drusilla Severa

Gens Longina


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Speach
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:27:34 -0000

> Had Limitanus said that Christanity was a cover for a Imperalistic
> policy that destroyrd many native cultures, I would have agreed
with
> him, but he went beyond this laying the blame on Christanity,
rather
> than Imperalism, and adding the charge that Christians, rather than
> Statists acting under the guise of Christanity are continuing this
> policy.

An important and well-stated distinction: I doubt that many consider
today that the Borgias were anything other than secular leaders
clothed in the outer robes of the papacy, to name only one example.
Many enterprises over the millenia have been undertaken in the name
of a god or gods, that clearly were motivated by purely material or
worldly concerns. That hardly constitutes a condemnation of the
religion cited, but of the individuals doing the citing.

>
> DRUSUS:Censorship is banning an idea from being published at all.
> Moderation is exercising editorial control on a given site. The
> regulations we have now fall in the later catagory.

I would only add that free speech cannot be absolute, but should be
as close to absolute as possible, therefore, censorship should be
undertaken reluctantly and judiciously.

Valete,

R Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] (unknown)
From:	darkelf@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:30:39 -0000

Salvete:

Limitanus said: "That is why they were (and still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating the cultures and
societies of non christians all around the world."

This is not "a baseless accusation, miserably disguised as an opinion" (to quote Pompeia Cornelia) or an accustaion of "genocide"
(Drusus' words). The problem seems to hinge on one's definition of 'annhiliate' and 'dangerous'. Annhiliation can happen either
through drastic and cataclysmic means, or through gradual change. Thus, one can annhilate a culture by dropping a bomb onto it,
or by introducing a religion which changes its fundamental qualities. Christianity in general is a prosthelytizing religion -- that
is, it seeks to convert. Of course not all Christians evangelize. But there are still missionaries active in parts of the world
today that are Christian, and one could argue that such missionaries are trying to rewrite the native, non Christian culture by
introducing and incorporating Christianity into it.

This is *not* to say that Christians are some kind of plague (they aren't), nor that there is some inherent superior value to
non/pre Christian beliefs (there isn't). Pagans often have a victim mentality where Christians are concerned ('your ancestors
beat up my ancestors') to which Christians respond by a) accusing back 'your ancestors started it' or b) taking on some strange
guilty posture 'we aren't all like that.'

Christianity spread as far as it did for many reasons, and not all of them are violent 'by the sword' conversionary tactics. If a
culture wishes to resist Christian teachings, it will. Japan has. China has. Clearly Christianity is not the de facto victor when
it comes into contact with another, non Christian religion.

So the 'danger' Limitanus describes might be seen as a bit inflated. But then again, so too might this 'baseless attack' a few
people have identified.

Valete,
P. Clodia Cinnabari


Subject:	[novaroma] It's a bit late to point the finger...
From:	"Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)" <mark.devry@-------->
Date:	Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:31:10 +1200

Guidday! (that's Kiwi for Salvete)

I feel very guilty in that I opened this metaphysical and
theological can of worms by starting this thread on who was responsible for
the crusifixion of Christ.
I didn't mean for eveyone to get carried away with who was actually
responsible, who is officially to blame and did Jesus really exist in the
form portrayed in the bible. My initial question is to do with public
perception and attitudes in the public towards Classical Rome, wheather the
New Zealand Public is reflective of a world wide perception or are we simply
isolated in our views?
Although I have found many of the subsequent enlightining,
challanging and interesting, I would like to appologise that my question has
now led to offensive answers.
I did not want to imply that we should go around telling people that
Jews are bad, or that Christians are all out to destroy us, I just wanted
advise on how to overcome an obstical to attracting people to the study of
(or even better the adoption of) Roman history and ways.
So, I am sorry to those who have been offended by this thread, and
ask that can we please all be nice to each other for a couple of days?

Cheers Mate (Kiwi for Gratis),
Marcus Sentius Accipiter

P.S. The one and only answer I got to my question was from Ottawa
(where my mother was born incidently) and was that the New Zealand Public is
simply strange.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senatorial Scriba
From:	TribuneAfricanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:02:43 EDT

Oops.....I apparently forgot the English translation to my post.

Congratulations and welcome to the NOVA Rome Manius Constantinius Serapio.
Proconsul Audens is a wonderful person to work for and I am sure that you
will enjoy your duties. Be well! Marcus Scipio Africanus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:26:50 EDT

In a message dated 7/24/01 11:18:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
ksterne@-------- writes:

> Salvete,
>
> After reading and thinking over some of the subsequent posts as well
> as that of our Consul above, I must admit Limitanus is within his
> rights to speak his mind even if he does so without tact or
> consideration for others.
>
> I herby withdraw my call for Nota, but ask again for apology from
> Limitanus.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas
>

I think you and the others have beaten the horse sufficiently to let the
matter drop.


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 25 Jul 2001 00:11:19 +0200

Michel Loos wrote:
> The christians wanted to totally break this competition by
> proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods, effectively
> annihilating the basement of the culture. That is why they were
> (and still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
> annihilating the cultures and societies of non christians all
> around the world.

Salvete, cives.

I must apologize, but I think this is largely a cultural problem. Being
a swedish christian by birth, I'd appreciate someone explaining to me in
which way the above statement is an attack on every single christian,
and in which way it can be considered an attack at all. Because I just
don't get what all the fuss is about.

Limitanus is, to my understanding, simply stating that the christians,
as a group, are converting believers of other faiths to their religion,
thereby lessening the religious impact of said faiths on their
respective cultures and societies. This doctrine is, to my knowledge,
completely true, considering the origin of, for instance, the various
crusades organized by the early christian church, as well as later-day
incursions in the americas. However, how this could be perceived as a
general hatred, on Limitanus' behalf, against all christians, eludes me.

I believe this entire incident is a cultural problem. During my
confirmation, I debated this exact issue once or twice with the
responsible priest, and even managed to get him to agree with me. Ergo,
in Sweden at least, this is not considered in any way a "dangerous
topic". Sensible conversations on the subject are possible even among
active christians, without anyone feeling the need to get personal,
which I didn't feel that Limitanus' did. He just broached the subject
with his usual candor, that may be considered rude by some, but mostly
get the point across.

In case anyone feels I've been insulting, I apologize for my behaviour.
I just don't understand where all the hostility is coming from, and felt
the need for an explanation. Thank you for your patience with me!

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] It's a bit late to point the finger...
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:35:00 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

--- "Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)"
<mark.devry@--------> wrote:
> So, I am sorry to those who have been offended by
> this thread, and
> ask that can we please all be nice to each other for
> a couple of days?

Well said. I think I got caught up in overzealousness
(did I just invent a word?) and apologize for my zeal
in my recent post. I've calmed down some now and hope
we can get on a new thread and discuss something
constructive.

L. Cornelius Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow." -Dilbert

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Reenacting Book Finished!
From:	TribuneAfricanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:18:49 EDT

Greetings and Salutations,
I am pleased to announce that my book on living history and reenacting
in America is done. It's title is Reflections of the Past: Living History
and Reenacting in America. It covers the history and evolution of
reenacting, why people reenact different eras, pros and cons of reenacting
and living history, plus a chapter on women reenactors, and the media. It is
being proof read now, and will go to the printer's on the 1st. This email is
to give everyone a heads up, and allow you to send your orders in now so I
can start shipping them once the first run is done. (They said shouldnt be
ready by the 5th.) Since I am self-publishing this book, it will be a soft
full color cover with a lot of photos, for $20.00 per copy. A bulk order
deal is available for gaming/hobby stores who wish to purchase copies to sell.

After this book, I plan to do a series on the specific eras of
reenacting. The series will be called The Idiot's Guide to Reenacting
(insert era). This mini-series will cover the does and donts, how to get
started, and much more. I will be donating 10% of profits to the WW2
Memorial in Washington D.C.. The remainder of profits will go to finance a
trip to Europe next year to do research for a future book on my WW2
reenacting unit the 7th SS Prinz Eugen, and the partizan war in Yugoslavia.

Please feel free to contact me directly if you have more questions about
the book.

To order a copy, send check or money order to:

Shane Evans
6624 Loudon St.
Johnstown, Ohio
43031


Subject:	[novaroma] Reenacting book shipping
From:	TribuneAfricanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:44:20 EDT

I forgot to mention that the price of the book covers the shipping cost.
And also, in case I wasnt clear enough. It covers the history and evolution
of reenacting, and talks about all the different eras people reenact, from
antiquity to Vietnam, as well as women and the media in reenacting.

Shane