| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Blaming Romans & NOVA ROMANS |
| From: |
Prometheus <fresco@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 04:27:20 +0200 |
|
>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:17:31 -0000
> From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
> Subject: Re: Blaming Romans
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > The christians wanted to totally break this competition by
> > proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods, effectively
> > annihilating the basement of the culture. That is why they were (and
> > still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating the
> > cultures and societies of non christians all around the world.
> > Vale,
> > Manius Villius Limitanus.
>
> Sir,
> Have you no decency.
> The Nazi's took the bad example of a few Jews and used it as an excuse
> to spread hatred of all the Jews.
> The Klan takes the bad actions of a few African Americans and use it
> as an excuse for hating all African Americans.
> You have shown that the Nazi's and the Klan are your spirital
> brothers, by taking the bad examples of a minority of Christians, and
> using that to launch a hate filled attack on all Christians.
>
> Manius Villius, considering the ammount of venom that you spread on
> this list, I think you would be more at home with the Nazi party,
> rather than in Nova Roma
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
Marcus Prometheus:
Dear Sir, you are trying to suffocate an opinion simply because it is
disturbing for
you.
Freedom of opinion means respect for opinion different from ours.
And a meaningful discussion means to find (in this case in history and
other sciences)
valid points to counter your opponent.
Tryng to silence the adversary is just what the people (nazis, KKK etc)
you compared to
Limitaneus would have done.
Limitaneus never wrote absolutes.
He never said "ALL CHRISTIANS IN ALL TIMES DID and DO this or that".
He never said or hinted all present days christians are responsable
for.......
Thanking all the gods of pantheon things do evolve, but for most of the
16 centuries
and half since Cristianism became state religion following the Council
of Nicea 325 was
it true or not what Limitaneus wrote? This is the interesting object of
the debate,
NOT Limitaneus perfidy.
And is it correct to hint that present days christian missionarys are
still destroing
local cultures ? If to destroy means to use violent means I suppose it
is no more the
case, but if to destroy hints just to the result ?
I suggest both parties in this discussion to go to a public library or
to do some
research on the internet and to begin referring to some facts PRO or
CONTRA their
respective opinion.
Yet nothing has been demonstrated. Unfortunately since the beginning of
this argument
no god came down on earth to tell us any divine and absolute truth, so
nobody possesses
a divine truth, (only nazis, commies and KKK believe they do) and so we
ourselves must
do our research, our debate and finally accord our opinion a little more
with evidence
emerging.
Respectfully
Marcus Prometheus.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans & NOVA ROMANS |
| From: |
trog99@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 02:44:35 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Prometheus <fresco@f...> wrote:
> >
> > Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:17:31 -0000
> > From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
> > Subject: Re: Blaming Romans
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> >
> > SNIP
> >
> > > The christians wanted to totally break this competition by
> > > proclaming the total inexistance of the other gods, effectively
> > > annihilating the basement of the culture. That is why they were
(and
> > > still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating
the
> > > cultures and societies of non christians all around the world.
> > > Vale,
> > > Manius Villius Limitanus.
> >
> >Salve Marcus Prometheus:
No, Marce, Promethe, Limitanus did not write "all Christians ", he
wrote "the Christians" continue....... What, pray tell, is the
difference? He accuses all modern day Christians of the atrocities of
the past and present, even if they had individually nothing to do with
them.
He didn't hint anything, Promethe........he came right out and said
it.
Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia (Who blames Nova Romans in general for nothing,
individually or collectively, to date)
> He never said "ALL CHRISTIANS IN ALL TIMES DID and DO this or
that".
> He never said or hinted all present days christians are responsable
> for.......
> Thanking all the gods of pantheon things do evolve, but for most of
the
> 16 centuries
> and half since Cristianism became state religion following the
Council
> of Nicea 325 was
> it true or not what Limitaneus wrote? This is the interesting
object of
> the debate,
> NOT Limitaneus perfidy.
> And is it correct to hint that present days christian missionarys
are
> still destroing
> local cultures ? If to destroy means to use violent means I
suppose it
> is no more the
> case, but if to destroy hints just to the result ?
> I suggest both parties in this discussion to go to a public library
or
> to do some
> research on the internet and to begin referring to some facts PRO or
> CONTRA their
> respective opinion.
> Yet nothing has been demonstrated. Unfortunately since the beginning
of
> this argument
> no god came down on earth to tell us any divine and absolute truth,
so
> nobody possesses
> a divine truth, (only nazis, commies and KKK believe they do) and
so we
> ourselves must
> do our research, our debate and finally accord our opinion a little
more
> with evidence
> emerging.
>
> Respectfully
> Marcus Prometheus.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
CmndrZil@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 01:44:01 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/24/01 4:51:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:
<< I said the term Nazi should be reserved for those who
have earned it. The part you sniped shows that
Limitanus has the same attitude about Christians that
the Nazis have about Jews. a blind hatred of other
ethnic or religious groups is the one factor that
seperates the Nazi's from other statist partys. >>
I just don't think the word should be tossed about lightly. I don't think
you should say it unless you're speaking to a bona-fide member of the party,
Hitler loving nazi with a lower case n. Do I disagree with what he said?
Yes. Did he put people in concentration camps? No. The problem with
tolerance is that you have to tolerate the bigots too. You have to realize
that they have their perspectives and opinions, and they're allowed to
disagree and even say stupid things. You can call them stupid, but don't
turn yourself into a hypocrite.
Tarquinia Euphemia
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Senatorial Scriba (for Africanus) |
| From: |
manius_constantinus_serapio@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:46:25 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, TribuneAfricanus@a... wrote:
> Oops.....I apparently forgot the English translation to my post.
>
>
> Congratulations and welcome to the NOVA Rome Manius Constantinius
Serapio.
> Proconsul Audens is a wonderful person to work for and I am sure
that you
> will enjoy your duties. Be well! Marcus Scipio Africanus
AVE
thanks for your kind (italian and english) words.
I am sure I will learn a lot with Proconsul Marcus Minucius
Audens, and I hope I will be useful for Nova Roma!
VALE MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 01:03:38 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- CmndrZil@-------- wrote:
> In a message dated 7/24/01 4:51:54 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
> << I said the term Nazi should be reserved for those
> who
> have earned it. The part you sniped shows that
> Limitanus has the same attitude about Christians
> that
> the Nazis have about Jews. a blind hatred of other
> ethnic or religious groups is the one factor that
> seperates the Nazi's from other statist partys. >>
>
> I just don't think the word should be tossed about
> lightly. I don't think
> you should say it unless you're speaking to a
> bona-fide member of the party,
> Hitler loving nazi with a lower case n. Do I
> disagree with what he said?
> Yes. Did he put people in concentration camps? No.
> The problem with
> tolerance is that you have to tolerate the bigots
> too. You have to realize
> that they have their perspectives and opinions, and
> they're allowed to
> disagree and even say stupid things. You can call
> them stupid, but don't
> turn yourself into a hypocrite.
>
> Tarquinia Euphemia
>
Salvete,
I agree Tarquinia.. And I might add, that we
should treat "A" person(s) words as there own. Not
continuing the blanket statements. But treating
someone's perspective as an individual one. Grouping a
person's statements with a political party just
because it may (or may not) have similarities, is
adding to the ignorrant generalization.
Dehumanization is also a tactic used to gain
sympathy for a hateful point of view toward a group of
families and their children.Which was used by the
nazis.
I feel that if we do not indulge in generalizations,
but hold each person (individually) accountable for
his/her statements. We would be on the correct path.
Valete, A. Corvus Septimius
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Walking on thin ice! |
| From: |
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <kelibol@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:45:10 +0300 |
|
Avete Omnes...
To be able to criticize others ...first we should criticize
ourselves..! There
is no such thing as a 'perfect' faith!Christianity isn't perfect as many
other faiths..and I can create a list I call as ' Top -Zillion things I hate
most in Islam'...the only 'perfect' thing in a faith,I believe,is the God's
himself!As we say... Errare est humanum!
But there are some very delicate issues and to talk about them is like
walking on thin ice!Religion is one of them...and while I support the
freedom of speech..I think we should be more careful how we use that
freedom in our speeches!Unless of course we truly intend to hurt
someone's or a certain group's feelings!
And believe me that would really be unnecessary,unproductive,immature
and annoying..
Vale.....
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
Civis Novae Romae
* Sapiens dominabitur astris ! *
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Speach |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 05:03:26 -0300 |
|
Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> That is why they were (and
> still are) so dangerous. the christians continue annihilating the
> cultures and societies of non christians all around the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.
>
> This "statement of opinion" is a blanket accusation that the
> Christians are currently engaged in the crime of Genocide. This goes
> beyond mearly stating an idea, it's out and out slander.
>
Salvete,
Genocide consists in killing peoples not cultures nor societies.
Valete,
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 05:42:16 -0300 |
|
Patrick Ferguson wrote:
>>That is
>>why they were (and
>>still are) so dangerous. the christians continue
>>annihilating the
>>cultures and societies of non christians all around
>>the world.
>>
>>Vale,
>>
>>Manius Villius Limitanus.
>>
>
> I must say that this is a very ill-founded statement
> in more ways than one. It is very much a blanket
> statement to say that all Christians annihilate
> non-Christian cultures and societies.
Again there is no "all" in my statement.
> Some do
> evangelical work (which is what I assume and hope you
> are reffering to as their method of "annihilation",
Sure.
End result is the same due to the low level of organization of the
actual targets:
when you demoralize the shaman/paje/medicine man, the chiefs fastly
loose their powers and the tribes disperse and end up as poors in the
"christian" cities. No need to involve a state, no need for evil
intentions : it is really the "Go and spread the word" that is responsible.
> reather than opression, since the latter is no longer
> used by Christians as far as I know)
> Jehovah's Witnesses) but certainly not all (I have
> never seen or heard of Catholic evangilization).
They are quite active in Africa, India and Brazil. Mother Theresa is a
catholic you know.
> Also, I must say, that the world would be better off
> without certain societies and cultures (would you say
> it would be dangerous to annihilate the Nazi Party or
> the KKK or the Taliban?)
Those are political parties not cultures, and yes it would still be
dangerous to annihilate them, just as it would have been dangerous to
annihilate variola, better keep some in a secure place for future
reference :)
>
> Valete optime! :->!
>
> Hoping I have not offended anyone,
>
I really didn t think I was offending anyone here
Valete
Manius Villius Limitanus.
> Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
>
> Civis Novae Romae.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana]: New page about Domestic Roman Sacrifice |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:56:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
Salvete omnes
A new page about domestic roman sacrifice has been added to the NR web site
at
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/DomesticSacrificeTemplate.html
It is also accessible from
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/rites_and_rituals.html
A page on daily rituals is also planned for the near future, as well as some
examples of sacrifice scripts composed for public NR events.
Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
Salve, Honorable Antonius Gryllus Graecus, Ponitifex:
Thank you so much for your brilliant work on the "Template and Guidelines for Domestic Roman Sacrifice". I am certain your hardwork will set those with troubled minds to rest concerning all forms of sacrifice.
I think it is clear that there are many satisfactory alternatives for everyone who is or may want to become further involved with Religio Romana.
Thank you again for your clarifications in this sensitive area and dedication to the Religio Romana. I pray Jupiter blesses you with abundant prosperity for your fine efforts.
Vale, Maximina Octavia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] My Absence |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@--------> wrote:
Once again, I've been away without any real word to
any of you. I apologize. I recently was struck with
illness, bad enough to spend a few days in the
hospital recovering. I am still not 100%, but feeling
better. I'll be lurking a while longer as I get my
strength back.
=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California
Ave, Gaia Natalina Casca,
Welcome back, I am certain that we do not know each other as I am a new member, but I wanted to wish you a speedy recovery and a long future of good health. Be Well!
Vale, Maximina Octavia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: New Roman Days |
| From: |
TribuneAfricanus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:04:13 EDT |
|
The date I am looking at is either the 15th of September (my birthday) or the
6th of October. I am just now attempting to contact both the civies of my
Regio, and the local Legiones. The plan is to have a Roman Days event once a
month, in each state of Provincia Lacus Magni, allowing the citizens of each
state to host the event themselves. We'll alternate a different state each
month. Propraetor Germanicus would like to hold two this fall first, one in
the Regio Orientalis (Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky, West Virginia), and one in
Region Occidentalis(Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin), first to see how the
citizens and the public respond. I have not had a chance to speak to Legate
Venator about his plans for the Western Regio, but in the East, we will be
having a day of games, contests, art and craft displays, a hopefully very
large military exercise, and once the public goes home for the day, a grand
Roman Feast with plenty of song and dance. :o) Citizens from outside our
Provincia are of coarse welcome, and we will keep the Republic informed of
our progress. It is our hopes that we can give our citizens something fun to
do together, and hopefully attract new citizens who are unaware of Nova Roma.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans Finis |
| From: |
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:32:17 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/25/2001 9:22:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
loos@-------- writes:
> I used "christians" as a collective and of course in every group there
> are exceptions.
> When you define yourself as part of a group you necesarely are subject
> to apreciations on the group which are not directed to your person.
>
>
>
>
Salvete
Thank you Manius Villius. As I suspected, it was interpetive English that
was the problem and not the speaker. Therefore, people can we move on?
There are hundreds of subjects involved in Roman culture that we could be
discussing.
And please stop sending private notices to have my office charge various
individuals with Iniuria. There is no crime here.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
Praetor Urbanus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: ATTN [Religio Romana]: New page about Domestic Roman Sacrifice |
| From: |
amg@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:17:34 -0000 |
|
Salve Maximina Octavia
> Salve, Honorable Antonius Gryllus Graecus, Ponitifex:
>
> Thank you so much for your brilliant work on the "Template and
>Guidelines for Domestic Roman Sacrifice". I am certain your
>hardwork will set those with troubled minds to rest concerning all
>forms of sacrifice.
It was a pleasure to do it as I hope that such information will be
very useful both for those that simply seek information and
references and for the practicioners.
> I think it is clear that there are many satisfactory alternatives
>for everyone who is or may want to become further involved with
>Religio Romana.
Of course. The Religio Romana is not blood sacrifice. The latter is
the best known only because of the apparatus that was involved. But
at home and in several public ceremonies things could also be
different either due to an ancient tradition or simply for economical
resons that prevented people from buying live animals. I cannot stop
from quoting [Valerius Maximus, Memorable deeds and sayings, 2.5.5]:
"In the beginning, men appeased the gods with the first-offerings of
their food; offerings that were all the more effectual because they
were simpler."
But of course this is just a personal opinion. In the web page I
tried to be neutral while presenting both points of view.
> Thank you again for your clarifications in this sensitive area and
>dedication to the Religio Romana. I pray Jupiter blesses you with
>abundant prosperity for your fine efforts.
Dii te bene ament, familiamque tuam.
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:18:26 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I just reread my post and find no trace of the
> statement "All christians".
> I used "christians" as a collective and of course in
> every group there
> are exceptions.
> When you define yourself as part of a group you
> necesarely are subject
> to apreciations on the group which are not directed
> to your person.
>
>
> If I was generalizing about christians I would have
> used an "all" in
> some place, which I DID NOT.
> How am I supposed to designate the collective of all
> "missionaries" and
> supporters, inquisition, crusaders, "conscience"
> counsellors, popes,
> bishops etc. of christian inspiration ?
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
Salve Manius Villius Limitanus,
Then let this be a lesson to you, Manius Villius to
perhaps be more specific in the future when making
statements that you must have known would generate a
heated argument. Much of the preceeding antagonism
could have been avoided by the interjection of one
small word in your original post: Some, as in some
Christians.
Vale,
Pompeia Antonia Caesar>
> labienus@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salve Pompeia Cornelia et salvete omnes
> >
> >
> >>Pompeia:***All Christians, Fortunatus, even us in
> Nova Roma?
> >>
> >
> > I was only writing of generalities regarding the
> Christian faith. With a very
> > few notable exceptions, the Christians I have met
> through Nova Roma have been
> > open-minded people who are willing to overlook the
> missionary side of their
> > religion. (Or, perhaps, are of the variety which
> prefers to convert by good
> > example.)
> >
> >
> >>Limitanus states that all Christians are engaged
> in destructive
> >>behaviour. With respect, Fortunatus, that isn't
> true.
> >>
> >
> > Of course it isn't true. However, Limitanus is
> within his rights to believe
> > that it's true, and to say so. It is the same
> principle which allowed
> > Nerva/Festus to bluntly state with impunity on a
> number of occasions that the
> > Roman Gods do not exist. It is the same principle
> which allowed a civis (I
> > forget who) to say with impunity that all
> homosexuals support pedophilia during
> > the gender edictum brouhaha. The price we pay for
> free speech is that we must
> > occasionally listen to distasteful things.
> >
> >
> >>And I know you are basically a pretty objective
> person,
> >>Tribune, just trying to give you my perspective on
> things.
> >>
> >
> > I understand your perspective quite well. As a
> pagan, I have been on the
> > receiving end of exactly this sort of prejudice
> more than once. However, "It
> > is thy duty to leave another man's wrongful act
> there where it is." In other
> > words, don't try to correct a wrong act with a
> wrong act simply because you
> > feel hurt.
> >
> >
> >>****Pompeia: I know the Christian church has been
> the author of much
> >>destruction throughout the ages and even into the
> last century. To
> >>think otherwise would be naive. But to blame all
> Christians,
> >>Fortunatus? I didn't do these things. There is no
> merit in this.
> >>Otherwise I could blame all Germans for the
> product of the Third
> >>Reich.
> >>
> >
> > Of course such thinking is erroneous. One could
> likewise blame all Romans (and
> > by extension all modern Roman pagans) for nearly
> wiping out the Celts.
> > However, the fact that this is faulty reasoning
> does not stop humans from
> > thinking in this fashion. It is far too common to
> tar all members of a group
> > with the same brush.
> >
> >
> >>Pompeia: I have never made blanket statements
> about Paganism, such as
> >>"all Pagans are this", "all Pagans are dangerous".
> In fact, I have
> >>defended Pagans' rights to practice their faith.
> I am a proponent of
> >>religious freedoms; I just have a differing point
> of view on some
> >>things...
> >>
> >
> > I have not said--nor do I believe--otherwise.
> >
> >
> >>Please take a moment, honoured Tribune (and I mean
> honoured) to reread
> >>Limitanus' statement, only insert the word Pagan
> for Christian where
> >>applicable, and see if it is not more clear as to
> why I see this as a
> >>personal slur for myself, and for any other
> peaceable Christian here
> >>on this list.****
> >>
> >
> > As I said before, I do see why you see it as a
> personal slur. I am, as I often
> > do, attempting to bring the discussion beyond
> personal pain and knee-jerk
> > reactions to the impersonal bigger picture and
> reasoned responses. You see
> > Limitanus' action as hurtful, and naturally want
> to stop him from doing it
> > again. However, if we punish him for stating his
> opinion, then we will have
> > opened a door that is better left closed.
> >
> > Valete
> > T Labienus Fortunatus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Obituary for Indro Montanelli |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:35:10 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes.
I wanted to inform you all that Indro Montanelli, a well known Italian
writer, passed away a few days ago.
Montanelli's love for Ancient Rome was a real inspiration for many
people, and his masterpiece "The History of Rome" remains a great work
to provide a general knwoledge of Roman history.
I will pray for his soul, and invite you all to do the same.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans and the issue of Manius Villius |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:05:19 -0700 (PDT) |
|
ksterne@-------- wrote:
--- In novaroma@--------, "Robert Woolwine" <alexious@e...> wrote:
>>I respectfully request that our government officials in Nova Roma
take appropriate action against Manius Villius who has clearly shown
his anger and prejudice<<.
Salvete Manius Villius Limitanus et Lucius Cornelius et Omnes,
Mani Villi, I have, in the past, tried to give you the benefit of the
doubt as a "dissenter" acting in good faith with perhaps a little
less tact than would be best. Your recent statements in this matter
are "over the line". I call on Manius Villius Limitanus to
publically apologize for his remarks.
Luci Corneli, if Manius Villius does not apologize, I call on you as
Censor to issue the Nota as the appropriate government action, which
is within your power.
Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Salvete Gaius Popillius Laenas et Omnes,
I completely agree with you on this issue. Also, I would like to make the distinction between mere disagreement (dissension) and expressing hate and intolerance.
They are two different issues. IMHO, disagreement (dissension) is healthy and honest, spreading hate and religious intolerance or hate toward any "group" is inexcuseable. I have expressed this before and express it now. Please accept my vote in concurrence with that of G.P. Laenas and L. C. Sulla Felix.
Valete, Maximina Octavia
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: Blaming Romans |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:28:54 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ksterne@-------- [mailto:ksterne@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 9:11 AM
>
> Luci Corneli, if Manius Villius does not apologize, I call on you as
> Censor to issue the Nota as the appropriate government action, which
> is within your power.
Just a point of procedure; nota must be issued "collegially" by the Censors.
That is, they must both do so; Sulla cannot do so on his own, but would have
to do so in conjunction with Cincinnatus.
That being said, I do not believe such would be appropriate in this instance
(although it is, of course, the Censors' decision). While Limitanus'
statements may have offended some here, it is his right to make them. With
respect, the right _not_ to be offended does not trump the right to express
one's opinion. If it did, no one would say much of anything, because someone
can always be found who will be offended by any remark. Deliberate offense
is another story, but I don't think that was the case here. Limitanus'
remarks were not directed at any particular individual, nor did they seem
uncivil or disorderly to me. Unflattering to Christianity? Perhaps.
Subjective? Agreed. But impermissable? No, I cannot agree with that. If that
is Limitanus' interpretation of Christian history, then it is his right to
express it, just as it is the right of others to argue against it.
Indeed, I would rather like to see such a rebuttal, directed not at his
audacity at sending the original post, but on its content. Remember, we gain
infinitely more when we discuss ideas, rather than individuals.
I now await the coming of the end of the world with the certainty of its
imminent arrival. I am actually defending Limitanus. ;-)
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
Salve Consul Germanicus,
As i would generally agree with you, I feel as Laenas and Sulla Felix that although an individual was not attacked, a group that is prevalent in NR was. And, groups are made up of individuals. I as an individual was offended by Limitanus' remarks regarding Christians and Christianity.
I feel there is a difference between mere dissension (disagreement) and hate and intolerance. History shows that we reacted fervently when the Relgio Romana was perceived to be attacked. Are we to continue to tolerate hate and not just mere disagreement?
Please let's be able to discern the difference. If these comments were made about Jews, Muslims or any religious group, I would feel the same. I can assure you those making these "over the line" comments are courting the distruction of Nova Roma. Not only do some use overt means but covert means as well.
I agree with freedom of speech, however, I do not believe Nova Roma should be a place for hate mongers. As Nova Romans, I think an apology is asking very little. I think it is fair to consider the good of the many Nova Romans, especially in this case.
This is only my humble opinion and I thank you for taking it into consideration.
Valete, Maximina Octavia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] It's a bit late to point the finger... |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:54:20 -0700 (PDT) |
|
"Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)" <mark.devry@--------> wrote:
Guidday! (that's Kiwi for Salvete)
I feel very guilty in that I opened this metaphysical and
theological can of worms by starting this thread on who was responsible for
the crusifixion of Christ.
I didn't mean for eveyone to get carried away with who was actually
responsible, who is officially to blame and did Jesus really exist in the
form portrayed in the bible. My initial question is to do with public
perception and attitudes in the public towards Classical Rome, wheather the
New Zealand Public is reflective of a world wide perception or are we simply
isolated in our views?
Although I have found many of the subsequent enlightining,
challanging and interesting, I would like to appologise that my question has
now led to offensive answers.
I did not want to imply that we should go around telling people that
Jews are bad, or that Christians are all out to destroy us, I just wanted
advise on how to overcome an obstical to attracting people to the study of
(or even better the adoption of) Roman history and ways.
So, I am sorry to those who have been offended by this thread, and
ask that can we please all be nice to each other for a couple of days?
Cheers Mate (Kiwi for Gratis),
Marcus Sentius Accipiter
P.S. The one and only answer I got to my question was from Ottawa
(where my mother was born incidently) and was that the New Zealand Public is
simply strange.
Ave, Marcus Sentius Accipiter,
Please do not feel guilty. This sort of phenomena should be expected. At the Forum, all taboo topics that we might not bring up a dinner party are discussed here. It is unreasonable to expect that Religion and Politics can be discussed dispassionately.
As you can see, it is impossible. If you suspect my theory, I challenge you to bring this issue up at the next part of strangers you attend. The same confligration will ensue. It is merely human nature and I think quite educational overall.
Sometimes, certain people go beyond mere disagreement and take the path of peddling hate. This is not your fault. I venture to say, this will never change at NR or the Real World. NR is also still experiencing growing pains and this is just a symptom.
Vale et Pax, Maximina Octavia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] To: Pontifex Maximus et Omnes |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:34:31 -0700 (PDT) |
|
cassius622@-------- wrote:
Salve,Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus
With all due respect, it amazes me that you think religion and politics, historical or not can be discussed dispassionately. Buttons are going to be pushed as in any debate of this kind.
I was brought up not to bring these things up with strangers at social functions. Here at NR we have a lot of strangers with a wide open "social" forum to discuss politics and religion. Respectfully, what did you expect? Do you honestly think the ancient Roman forum was any different?
The only problem is that, usually one person, writes in a hateful manner and sets off a firestorm of controversy. And, some citizens are sucked into the trap. If people would not react so fiercely to this person, perhaps things could be kept to a low roar. Instead, we constantly answer and acknowledge this person giving them far more power than they deserve.
IMHO, I have said it before and I will say again, there is a distinct difference between merely strongly disagreeing and peddling hate. Did Rome not fall from within and not without?
Thank you for your attention. I have the most fond and respectful feelings toward you and others that agree with you. I can certainly sympathize with your opinion. When all grow weary of this thread, another will begin and I suspect will end up the same way.
Vale with love and respect, Maximina Octavia
|
