| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: more on Centuries |
| From: |
"Maia" <mjarc@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:05:48 -0000 |
|
Salve Amuli Claudi Petre!
--- In novaroma@--------, --------wrote:
> Salve Maia Apollonia,
> First off, I wish to welcome you to the res publica. I look forward
> to talking to you on many interesting subjects in the future.
Thank you for the welcome. I didn't find your answers very
_reassuring_, but did appreciate them.
> The mistakes you found are small and do not affect voting
> seriously, if at all. I am sure these small mistakes will be
> corrected soon enough.
I didn't. :) Other people found them, here on the list. And they may
be small, but they do not exactly inspire trust, do they? A big
mistake (one with big consequences) could be made just as easily as a
negligible one. Also, I just don't think after the vote is soon
enough. Just me.
> One more thing. You posted a quote from consul Flavius Vedius
> Germanicus talking of how centuries are reorganised in November.
> This is nothing new, it says somewhere in the Tabularium that
> centuries are to be reorganised every November based on any new
> century points acuminated over the year by a citizen. I believe it
> would be chaos if the centuries where rearrange more then on a
> yearly bases.
If you say so, though I am not sure I can see why. The formula for
calculating people's points is relatively simple; why couldn't there
be a program running that would be fed any new data immediately and
give current, valid results to anyone who asks?
Still, if it says "in November" in the Tabularium, then it does. If I
am splitting hairs, that's because I don't have a feel for things yet.
> I have more too say about this proposed lex... I shall post my
> thoughts in a new message the moment I get some more free time.
I will be looking forward to it.
Vale
Maia Apollonia Pica
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: more on Centuries |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:44:25 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Maia Apollonia,
> If you say so, though I am not sure I can see why. The formula for
> calculating people's points is relatively simple; why couldn't there
> be a program running that would be fed any new data immediately and
> give current, valid results to anyone who asks?
Actually, there is such a program running. Every time you click on the
number of century points any citizen has, to view the detailed listing
of where those points come from, the point total is recalculated on
the spot.
The problem is that the total is only as good as the data which
contributes to it. Most magistracies in previous years, current
scribe positions, and unsuccessful political campaigns have never
been entered into the database.
The Censores and I do not have time to perform all of that data entry.
If someone will volunteer to become a scribe, to look through the
archives for historical events that would cause citizens to receive
points (such as political campaigns), to enter this data, and to respond
to mail from citizens who say that their point values are incorrect,
then the point totals can become accurate.
Contact the Censores if you are willing to contribute to fixing the
century points.
Vale, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: more on Centuries |
| From: |
"Maia Apollonia Pica" <mjarc@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:10:24 +0200 |
|
Salve Senator Marce Octavi Germanice!
On 16 Aug 2001, at 9:44, Tu scripsit:
> Actually, there is such a program running. Every time you click on
> the number of century points any citizen has, to view the detailed
> listing of where those points come from, the point total is
> recalculated on the spot.
>
> The problem is that the total is only as good as the data which
> contributes to it. Most magistracies in previous years, current
> scribe positions, and unsuccessful political campaigns have never been
> entered into the database.
Thank you for explaining some of this.
> The Censores and I do not have time to perform all of that data entry.
> []
> Contact the Censores if you are willing to contribute to fixing the
> century points.
And this is a great deal of work, I see. It's a little frightening to
think what will be happening when Nova Roma has three thousand
citizens, or thirty thousand!
I'm afraid I would only create problems if I tried to contribute in
the way you seem to suggest now when I'm _so_ green and have so much
to learn! But I guess people would want to earn their own century
points by becoming a Scriba whose job would be to just enter the data
and see to it that everything works properly.
Vale
Maia Apollonia Pica
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: more on Centuries |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:01:23 US/Central |
|
Salvete Maia Apollonia omnesque
> I'm afraid I would only create problems if I tried to contribute in
> the way you seem to suggest now when I'm _so_ green and have so much
> to learn! But I guess people would want to earn their own century
> points by becoming a Scriba whose job would be to just enter the data
> and see to it that everything works properly.
I would recommend becoming a scriba especially to new cives who have much to
learn about Nova Roma. It is an excellent way to be exposed to the day-to-day
running of the Respublica in a manner that allows one to contribute in small
but quite meaningful ways.
Serving first as a rogator and second as a scriba censorialis gave me a great
deal of insight into Nova Roma's government; insight I don't believe I could
have developed half so easily or fully if I had not volunteered for those jobs.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Century Points |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:15:37 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Mistress Maia Appolonia Pica;
Senator Octavius has the right of it indeed!!! Much of the material
that needs to be undertaken (century points are only a small part)
relies upon those citizens in Nova Roma who as citizens now look for a
way to assist the micro-nation.
Those who excuse themselves from any duty or activity by the reasoning
that they are too new or too "green" do themselves and the micronation
an injustice. Those who "jump in" and take on a responsibility
immediately begin to "learn the ropes" and are much appreciated by Nova
Roma.
No "newbie" should be fooled by those on this list who post and do
little else. It is those great citizens like Propraetors Quintillianus
/ Stabo and others, Consuls Germanicus / Julianus, Senators Octavius,
Sulla, Maximus, and the other very active Senators, the hard working
Censor Cincinnatus, and the various Scribes and junior magistrates like
the Quaestors and Rogators who do the excellent day to day work that
keeps this micronation moving and vibrant.
Those citizens who serve in the various Sodalitas as Staff Members and
who move the micronation along by thier input, effort and activities are
much esteemed and of great value to the micronation. Several others as
well as myself have offered beginning positions within our sodalitas,
and Nova Roma herself, but with few takers. The oppotunities are there,
and those who take advantage of them are much appreciated. Those who
choose to remain aloof from this kind of involvement, I personnally have
little time for, as the others who are involved seem to me to merit my
attention much more.
It is to the benefit, of course, to the micronation to point out
problems and the citizenship is appreciative, but as Senator Octavius
points out, those who actively serve Nova Roma in the "trenches", so to
speak, are those who are greatly valued. No-one comes into Nova Roma
fully prepared to act for her, but those who are interested move to do
what they are willing to learn, others observe, lose interest and drift
away. Many who come here wish to take the position of "sidewalk
supintendents" who point out errors or a "better way" leaving the
"others" to fix the problem. Senator Octavius' point is that there are
no "others" for all engaged are working in thier niche and working hard.
I have posted on this subject many times, and I suppose as new people
continue to join, human nature apparently being what it is, I will post
on the subject again in the future.
I would wonder, as you do, that when there are 30,000 citizens
registered in Nova Roma, what percentage will be able to say, --
----"I worked for her!!!"
as opposed to those who will only be able to say,---
----"I merely talked to her!!!."
I would hope that all who come here, will see something of interest and
get involved. How else will we know you, how else will we understand
you, except for your actions and efforts. Words are cheap and
plentiful, actions and activities are valued and precious. How shall
you be known in the days and years to come?????
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
ProConsul
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:53:18 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Proconsul M. Minuci,
> Senator Octavius points out, those who actively serve Nova Roma in the
> "trenches", so to speak, are those who are greatly valued.
Thanks, but I can't take credit for that; it was Senator T. Labienus
who encouraged everyone to get involved.
Vale, Octavius.
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:44:23 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
> Mistress Maia Appolonia Pica;
>
> Senator Octavius has the right of it indeed!!! Much
> of the material
> that needs to be undertaken (century points are only
> a small part)
> relies upon those citizens in Nova Roma who as
> citizens now look for a
> way to assist the micro-nation.
>
> Those who excuse themselves from any duty or
> activity by the reasoning
> that they are too new or too "green" do themselves
> and the micronation
> an injustice. Those who "jump in" and take on a
> responsibility
> immediately begin to "learn the ropes" and are much
> appreciated by Nova
> Roma.
>
> No "newbie" should be fooled by those on this list
> who post and do
> little else. It is those great citizens like
> Propraetors Quintillianus
> / Stabo and others, Consuls Germanicus / Julianus,
> Senators Octavius,
> Sulla, Maximus, and the other very active Senators,
> the hard working
> Censor Cincinnatus, and the various Scribes and
> junior magistrates like
> the Quaestors and Rogators who do the excellent day
> to day work that
> keeps this micronation moving and vibrant.
>
> Those citizens who serve in the various Sodalitas as
> Staff Members and
> who move the micronation along by thier input,
> effort and activities are
> much esteemed and of great value to the micronation.
> Several others as
> well as myself have offered beginning positions
> within our sodalitas,
> and Nova Roma herself, but with few takers. The
> oppotunities are there,
> and those who take advantage of them are much
> appreciated. Those who
> choose to remain aloof from this kind of
> involvement, I personnally have
> little time for, as the others who are involved seem
> to me to merit my
> attention much more.
>
> It is to the benefit, of course, to the micronation
> to point out
> problems and the citizenship is appreciative, but as
> Senator Octavius
> points out, those who actively serve Nova Roma in
> the "trenches", so to
> speak, are those who are greatly valued. No-one
> comes into Nova Roma
> fully prepared to act for her, but those who are
> interested move to do
> what they are willing to learn, others observe, lose
> interest and drift
> away. Many who come here wish to take the position
> of "sidewalk
> supintendents" who point out errors or a "better
> way" leaving the
> "others" to fix the problem. Senator Octavius'
> point is that there are
> no "others" for all engaged are working in thier
> niche and working hard.
> I have posted on this subject many times, and I
> suppose as new people
> continue to join, human nature apparently being what
> it is, I will post
> on the subject again in the future.
>
> I would wonder, as you do, that when there are
> 30,000 citizens
> registered in Nova Roma, what percentage will be
> able to say, --
>
> ----"I worked for her!!!"
>
> as opposed to those who will only be able to say,---
>
> ----"I merely talked to her!!!."
>
> I would hope that all who come here, will see
> something of interest and
> get involved. How else will we know you, how else
> will we understand
> you, except for your actions and efforts. Words are
> cheap and
> plentiful, actions and activities are valued and
> precious. How shall
> you be known in the days and years to come?????
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
> ProConsul
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
>
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>
Salvete Omnes,
I Can't disagree with Senator Audens that we need more
involvement from our citizens, However I found the
title "Century Points" to be rather ironic. Far too
often we fail to reward citizens who do take an active
role in our Res Publica with Century points.
A citizen could serve as a Legate in his provincia, Be
a member in half a dozen Sodalitas, work on the staff
of a couple of the Sodalitas, and organize a new
Legio, and he would receive 10 century points at the
end of the year. A citizen who did nothing would also
receive the same number of points.
Under our present system of awarding points just being
a citizen for a year is worth 10 points, the things I
mentioned that our very active citizen could do are
worth ZERO points.
My view is that a citizen who takes on a job in the
Sodalitas or the Provinces should receive more points
than a citizen who's only contribution was not to send
in a resignation during the past year, but our present
system does not reflect this.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus,
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Century Points |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:58:50 +0200 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius Omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
The following letter is one of the most important I have seen in some
time:
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Subject: Re: Re: more on Centuries
Salve Maia Apollonia,
> If you say so, though I am not sure I can see why. The formula for
> calculating people's points is relatively simple; why couldn't there
> be a program running that would be fed any new data immediately and
> give current, valid results to anyone who asks?
Actually, there is such a program running. Every time you click on the
number of century points any citizen has, to view the detailed listing
of where those points come from, the point total is recalculated on
the spot.
The problem is that the total is only as good as the data which
contributes to it. Most magistracies in previous years, current
scribe positions, and unsuccessful political campaigns have never
been entered into the database.
The Censores and I do not have time to perform all of that data entry.
If someone will volunteer to become a scribe, to look through the
archives for historical events that would cause citizens to receive
points (such as political campaigns), to enter this data, and to respond
to mail from citizens who say that their point values are incorrect,
then the point totals can become accurate.
Contact the Censores if you are willing to contribute to fixing the
century points.
Vale, Octavius.
__________________
SO, "Most magistracies in previous years, current
scribe positions, and unsuccessful political campaigns have never
been entered into the database."
In other words:
1) The laws for the assignment of century points have been simply and
silently neglected and ignored.
2) Our century assignments in past balloting have apparently been
inaccurately made, with possible affects on voting outcomes.
3) What was announced to us as the way we were being evaluated for the
centureis was in fact a falsehood, and we were not told until now.
"Never" would seem to be a long time if it is from the beginning of the
system.
4) "Most" magistracies were not entered... This implies that *some* were
perhaps entered. By what criterion that might have involved intentional
or unintentional political or personal bias were those that were entered
entered?
It may be argued that the censors simply did not have the manpower. But
if that was keeping them from doing legally mandated work, why did they
not publicly *ask for* the manpower, explaining the reason? Long before
this. Or, if the manpower was not forthcoming, why did they not explain
the situation before all of us and request a simpler system for
century-point assignment that their manpower was suffcient to manage?
How long has this legally required work been allowed to slip in this
manner?
I have had my little disagreements with the censors in the past, but I
never had any concrete reason to believe that they were breaking the
laws relating to their own duties. Now I must reconsider.
I also note that my filius Sokarus Apollonius Callias was adopted months
ago and the censors sent due notification of this. He was surprised not
to receive his voter code, and inquiries revealed that he had never been
registered as a citizen. The reason given was that I supposedly had not
adopted him. I sent a copy of the original notification of adoption to
the censors, but they chose to treat him as a new applicant and not
register him or issue the voting code that he has a right to expect as a
citizen who had fulfilled all qualifications long ago.
Of the two problems the larger public one is, of course, the more
important. We have a right to expect our censors to obey the laws as
they are eager to have the rest of us obey the laws. If non-compliance
due to inability had gone on for a long time with no hope for an
improvement in sight, then the citizens should have been informed, and
the Senate.
I have not been an enthusiast for the century-points system, as I think
that it is one aspect of NR life close to the rôle-playing gaming that
we claim to be above. But, if we are going to have it, we should do it
strictly according to the rules. It affects the distribution of power in
our sustem as it stands, and it is to important to allow to drift onto
illegality like this.
Valete!
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Century Allocation (was RE: Century Points) |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:18:56 -0400 |
|
Salvete;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 3:59 PM
>
> I have not been an enthusiast for the century-points system, as I think
> that it is one aspect of NR life close to the rôle-playing gaming that
> we claim to be above.
It may seem odd that I would agree with Formosanus on this particular point,
but I too am not a great fan of the Century Point system (despite the fact
that it was my own idea); I see it as a compromise of convenience. However,
I am certain he would agree that assigning centuries according to the
ancient model (i.e., according to the wealth of the individual) is
unacceptable. Obviously some criteria for assigning centuries must be
adopted, and at the time the best compromise seemed to be the current
system, which encouraged participation in public life.
I would be eager to hear what alternative Formosanus (or anyone else for
that matter) may have to the current system for assigning centuries. Some
people seem disgruntled with the current system; anyone have any better
ideas?
Valete;
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:12:10 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Marce Apolloni,
> 1) The laws for the assignment of century points have been simply and
> silently neglected and ignored.
Wrong. The laws have been obeyed to the best of all our ability,
and I have had long discussions with the Censors, Consuls, and
Tribune regarding the best way to allocate centuries for this
current election and for those to follow.
The Censores are required to enter new citizens into centuries
as they join. Just prior to each of the past two elections in
the Comitia Centuriata, new citizens were evenly distributed across
as many classes as were needed to hold them.
The Censores are required to adjust the century assignments of
citizens who are already in a century only once per year, before
November. Last year, this was done in April, before the election
of Censor Marius. It is required to take place no later than
November, and it will indeed happen by November of this year.
The Censores were under no obligation whatsoever to change the
century assignment of any but the newest citizens for the current
election.
> 2) Our century assignments in past balloting have apparently been
> inaccurately made, with possible affects on voting outcomes.
The last reassignment took place in April of 2000. What I wrote
about the omissions in the current database is absolutely irrevelant
to the question of current century assignments. The current
citizen database did not exist when the allocations were made.
The Censores did the allocation using a Microsoft Access spreadsheet
with complex formulas embedded within, that pulled values from
many columns to derive a point total. When I converted this to
the PostgreSQL database, none of the century point values were
imported, as the mathematical expressions used were not compatible
with the new environment - and because I had a different method
planned. The century number for each citizen, however, was
imported. Thus, everyone was in the same century after the
July 25 importing as they had been assigned to in April.
Prior to the December election, new citizens were placed in the
under-strength in the Fourth or Fifth classes. There was no
requirement that old citizens be reassigned to new centuries then.
> 3) What was announced to us as the way we were being evaluated for the
> centureis was in fact a falsehood, and we were not told until now.
> "Never" would seem to be a long time if it is from the beginning of the
> system.
Centuries will be reallocated at least once a year. No one in authority
has told you any falsehoods.
> 4) "Most" magistracies were not entered... This implies that *some* were
> perhaps entered. By what criterion that might have involved intentional
> or unintentional political or personal bias were those that were entered
> entered?
In January of this year I created a "magistrates" table in this database
and entered all current magistrates into it. This was done so that
the page "www.novaroma.org/bin/view/magistrates" could be generated.
The century point calculator looks in that table as one of its sources
for gathering century points.
I also entered "some" magistrates from previous years into that table:
everyone in office at the end of 2000, and the occupants of the three
senior magistracies from 1998 and 1999: Censor, Consul, Praetor.
Junior magistrates from the first two years aren't entered yet.
No scribes are entered at all - because I don't have a list of them.
But all of that is irrelevant, because the point values displayed
on the site have NEVER been used to calculate ANYONE's century
placement. Some day, they will be, and that's why I've asked
for volunteers to finish entering the data.
> It may be argued that the censors simply did not have the manpower. But
> if that was keeping them from doing legally mandated work, why did they
> not publicly *ask for* the manpower, explaining the reason?
I am asking for that manpower now, 3 months before the deadline.
Three months is plenty of time to finish entering all of the point
values.
> How long has this legally required work been allowed to slip in this
> manner?
It hasn't. Go read the law.
> I have had my little disagreements with the censors in the past,
"little"? You dominated conversation for months on this list with
your vendetta, forcing the censores to defend themselves and their
edicts constantly. Perhaps that's why they didn't have time to
research and record all events that merit century points.
> If non-compliance due to inability had gone on for a long time with no
> hope for an improvement in sight, then the citizens should have been
> informed, and the Senate.
But, of course, this never happened, except in your imagination.
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
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