| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Century Points |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:59:33 +0200 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus
Quiritibus S.P.D.
I am deeply relieved by the response of Octavius to my
expression of concern about the state of our century-points
data base. Because he is so personally involved in these
matters and knows them so well, he may not understand that
when he wrote that certain categories of points owed
various cives were "never" entered into the data base, I
naturally assumed that he meant since the inception of the
original version of the database and the beginning of the
whole century-point system. I hope that having clarifying
that, he will see why I was so concerned. I am content with
the clarification that has now been given by Octavius.
I am quite dissatisfied with the following passage of his
letter, however:
__________
I:
I have had my little disagreements with the censors in the
past,
Octavius:
"little"? You dominated conversation for months on this
list with your vendetta, forcing the censores to defend
themselves and their edicts constantly. Perhaps that's why
they didn't have time to research and record all events
that merit century points.
__________
Perhaps Octavius did not perceive that I was trying to
express my concern about the present situation without
naming names or expressing myself in any way extremely. The
comment in question was deliberately understated, and was
even so much so as to be (I had hoped) dryly humorous.
Since he insists on making a direct personal attack,
though, I shall reply that if a certain censor had let well
enough alone, and not insisted on pursuing *his* vendetta
against one transgendering individual and then other
members of this minority group through legislation of such
a controversial character that in dealing with the three
forms of it (2 edicta and 1 lex) the community was sorely
tried, Nova Roma might indeed have fared better, and he
would have had more time for data entry.
That piece of prejudiced and unfair legislation, which is
festering in our Tabularium and undermining any claim we
may have to be a nation of justice, is unfinished business.
However, I did not intend to raise it on this unrelated
occasion, but only do so because Octavius let his personal
animosity get the better of him and dredged it up to no
good purpose, and I will not let him misrepresent my
political deeds of the past.
Now, I would like to return to the matter at hand, and
respond to the kind invitation of Consul Vedius on what
ideas I might have about the century-point system.
First of all, I think there is much to recommend the
present system. Of course we could not use wealth as a
criterion, and to a certain degree the present system
offers a sort of justice and has definite advantages.
And yet there are problems. Drusus made an impressive list
of excellently productive activities that would receive no
reward. That would point to the desirability of refining,
extending and rebalancing the system. But, then, there is
the question of at what point to stop.
I mught go on to say that although I in my year and a half
(very roughly - I was here a long time before I finally got
my citizenship put through) have been a scriba and aedilis,
and have co-founded and been the prime drafter of
constitutions for two sodalitates and elected twice to be
the head of one of them. But I consider my most valuable
contribution to Nova Roma to be my campaign for justice in
the case of Marius, my co-founding of the Amici Dignitatis,
my campaign against linguistic chauvinism, and my warnings
over the dangers of oligarchy. Criticism of evils is a very
precious thing for any human society that is not perfect
(i.e all human societies). And yet it is made so unwelcome
here (as Octavius' unnecessary comments above show) that I
cannot see it in the near future being rewarded as it
deserves, nor do I know how to quantify it.
This leads me to think that Maia in writing that
"commitment" cannot easily be measured has a point. Those
who want to "build" and consider warnings that the building
is on moral sand and bound to collapse to be just a
malicious waste of time will not appreciate the degree of
effort and dangers of attack and unpopularity involved for
the critic, whose willingness to so lay himself on the line
betokens an equal or greater concern.
So, if asked what I would favour, I would say: equal
distribution. Our ancient cultural forebears had unequal
centuries based on wealth. We presently have unequal
centuries based on century-points based on a very selecive
set of criteria. I would favour the most equal distribution
of cives among the centuries so that we would still have a
basis for the Comitia Centuriata, but would not deviate
from the principle of one-man-one-vote any more than
mechanically necessary.
Nova Roma is getting big. Its provincial structure and
face-to-face meetings are flourishing. It will soon have
tax revenues to strengthen it. In other words, it is moving
away from being somewhat similar to a RPG and part of the
purely virtual world to being something more concrete,
significant and serious. If we were just organising
ourselves for the fun of simulating Roman society on line,
we could afford to have virtual slaves, virtual blood
sacrifices, virtual clientelism, virtual fights to the
death in the arena, virtual male dominance, etc. It would
not matter, but all be good fun, because it would have no
"real" consequences.
But as we perceive ourselves to be more and more "real",
and the decisions that our political arrangements make
become more and more important in the "real world", we
cannot afford to have institutions transgress our basic
contemporary perceptions of fairness. And fairness today
means human equality: whether of transgendering
individuals, people who want to use languages other than
English without special rules, people who live in Europe
and South America, people who disagree with those in
power... Nova Roma if it is to be a decent and respectable
institution in the 21st C.E. century must not be a haven
for right-wing or authoritarian political malcontents who
just cannot stand the growth of democracy and equality in
society at large, but must behave as a civilised
micronation with a respect for our deepest current values
of human equality.
So, keep the basic institutions of centurues and the
Comitia Centuriata out of respect for the tradition, but
remove the venom of inequality in public decision-making
and voting from it. It is not wanted today.
I had not intended, in fact, to attack the present system,
but simply desired to express my concern over a public
problem with it, which Octavius happily showed me to be a
misperception of his words. But since this has made people
think about the merits of the system itself, and I am
individually asked by Consul Vedius, I present my view.
Valete!
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:42:53 -0400 |
|
Salvete cives et amici,
Century points are to be awarded to citizens who participate actively in the
republic. If this is so, I think the points awarded for participants should
be reviewed. For instance, I design and maintain a provincial website. This
takes time, and effort just like any other position other fellow citizens
hold or held. Yet I receive nothing for this work except a personal feeling
of contributing to our cause. If we are to go by the constitution should I
not be receiving century points also even if it is a small amount? Am I not
participating? Just a thought.
The task of fixing this problem with missed century points is obviously a
tedious one. It will take much time and research of our archives. But before
we can look into this matter it seems sensible to review how many century
points if any shall be awarded to different positions.
I also saw a comment of changing the name of the "century points". I am all
for this. I am sure a better name can be found then "points".
Valete,
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Oath of Office |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Claudia=20Maxima=20Dea?= <eleteia@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:22:06 +0200 (CEST) |
|
I, Claudia Maxima Dea (Sofia Wallin), do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma,
and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Claudia Maxima Dea (Sofia Wallin), swear to honor the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.
I, Claudia Maxima Dea (Sofia Wallin), swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State
Religion.
I, Claudia Maxima Dea (Sofia Wallin), swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Claudia Maxima Dea (Sofia Wallin), further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Procuratrix Informatoria Thules to the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman
people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Procuratrix Informatoria Thules
and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
_____________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Ditt_namn@-------- - skaffa en gratis mailadress på http://mail.--------
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] The Value of a Mixed Constitution (long) |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:28:37 -0000 |
|
Salve Quirites,
It seems that some of our citizens wish to upset the balance between
the elements of our mixed constitution by increasing it's Democratic
elements. Polybios' Analysis of the Roman Government was the first
(and remains one of the best) Analysis of the value of a mixed
Constitution, and the systems of Checks and balances that in entails.
I Shall let his words stand on their own.
L. Sicinius Drusus
An Analysis of the Roman Government:
THE THREE kinds of government, monarchy, aristocracy and democracy,
were all found united in the commonwealth of Rome. And so even was the
balance between them all, and so regular the administration that
resulted from their union, that it was no easy thing to determine with
assurance, whether the entire state was to be estimated an
aristocracy, a democracy, or a monarchy. For if they turned their view
upon the power of the consuls, the government appeared to be purely
monarchical and regal. If, again, the authority of the senate was
considered, it then seemed to wear the form of aristocracy. And,
lastly, if regard was to be had to the share which the people
possessed in the administration of affairs, it could then scarcely
fail to be denominated a popular state. The several powers that were
appropriated to each of these distinct branches of the constitution at
the time of which we are speaking, and which, with very little
variation, are even still preserved, are these which follow.
The consuls, when they remain in Rome, before they lead out the armies
into the field, are the masters of all public affairs. For all other
magistrates, the tribunes alone excepted, are subject to them, and
bound to obey their commands. They introduce ambassadors into the
senate. They propose also to the senate the subjects of debates; and
direct all forms that are observed in making the decrees. Nor is it
less a part of their office likewise, to attend to those affairs that
are transacted by the people; to call together general assemblies; to
report to them the resolutions of the senate; and to ratify whatever
is determined by the greater number. In all the preparations that are
made for war, as well as in the whole administration in the field,
they possess an almost absolute authority. For to them it belongs to
impose upon the allies whatever services they judge expedient; to
appoint the military tribunes; to enroll the legions, and make the
necessary levies, and to inflict punishments in the field, upon all
that are subject to their command. Add to this, that they have the
power likewise to expend whatever sums of money they may think
convenient from the public treasury; being attended for that purpose
by a quaestor; who is always ready to receive and execute their
orders. When any one therefore, directs his view to this part of the
constitution, it is very reasonable for him to conclude that this
government is no other than a simple royalty. Let me only observe,
that if in some of these particular points, or in those that will
hereafter be mentioned, any change should be either now remarked, or
should happen at some future time, such an alteration will not destroy
the general principles of this discourse.
To the senate belongs, in the first place, the sole care and
management of the public money. For all returns that are brought into
the treasury, as well as all the payments that are issued from it, are
directed by their orders. Nor is it allowed to the quaestors to apply
any part of the revenue to particular occasions as they arise, without
a decree of the senate; those sums alone excepted. which are expended
in the service of the consuls. And even those more general, as well as
greatest disbursements, which are employed at the return every five
years, in building and repairing the public edifices, are assigned to
the censors for that purpose, by the express permission of the senate.
To the senate also is referred the cognizance of all the crimes,
committed in any part of Italy, that demand a public examination and
inquiry: such as treasons, conspiracies, poisonings, and
assassinations. Add to this, that when any controversies arise, either
between private men, or any of the cities of Italy, it is the part of
the senate to adjust all disputes; to censure those that are deserving
of blame: and to yield assistance to those who stand in need of
protection and defense. When any embassies are sent out of Italy;
either to reconcile contending states; to offer exhortations and
advice; or even, as it sometimes happens, to impose commands; to
propose conditions of a treaty; or to make a denunciation of war; the
care and conduct of all these transactions is entrusted wholly to the
senate. When any ambassadors also arrive in Rome, it is the senate
likewise that determines how they shall be received and treated, and
what answer shall be given to their demands.
In all these things that have now been mentioned, the people has no
share. To those, therefore, who come to reside in Rome during the
absence of the consuls, the government appears to be purely
aristocratic. Many of the Greeks, especially, and of the foreign
princes, are easily led into this persuasion: when they perceive that
almost all the affairs, which they are forced to negotiate with the
Romans, are determined by the senate.
And now it may well be asked, what part is left to the people in this
government: since the senate, on the one hand, is vested with the
sovereign power, in the several instances that have been enumerated,
and more especially in all things that concern the management and
disposal of the public treasure; and since the consuls, on the other
hand, are entrusted with the absolute direction of the preparations
that are made for war, and exercise an uncontrolled authority on the
field. There is, however, a part still allotted to the people; and,
indeed, the most important part. For, first, the people are the sole
dispensers of rewards and punishments; which are the only bands by
which states and kingdoms, and, in a word, all human societies, are
held together. For when the difference between these is overlooked, or
when they are distributed without due distinction, nothing but
disorder can ensue. Nor is it possible, indeed, that the government
should be maintained if the wicked stand in equal estimation with the
good. The people, then, when any such offences demand such punishment,
frequently condemn citizens to the payment of a fine: those especially
who have been invested with the dignities of the state. To the people
alone belongs the right to sentence any one to die. Upon this occasion
they have a custom which deserves to be mentioned with applause. The
person accused is allowed to withdraw himself in open view, and
embrace a voluntary banishment, if only a single tribe remains that
has not yet given judgment; and is suffered to retire in safety to
Praeneste, Tibur, Naples, or any other of the confederate cities. The
public magistrates are allotted also by the people to those who are
esteemed worthy of them: and these are the noblest rewards that any
government can bestow on virtue. To the people belongs the power of
approving or rejecting laws and, which is still of greater importance,
peace and war are likewise fixed by their deliberations. When any
alliance is concluded, any war ended, or treaty made; to them the
conditions are referred, and by them either annulled or ratified. And
thus again, from a view of all these circumstances, it might with
reason be imagined, that the people had engrossed the largest portion
of the government, and that the state was plainly a democracy.
Such are the parts of the administration, which are distinctly
assigned to each of the three forms of government, that are united in
the commonwealth of Rome. It now remains to be considered, in what
manner each several form is enabled to counteract the others, or to
cooperate with them.
When the consuls, invested with the power that has been mentioned,
lead the armies into the field, though they seem, indeed, to hold such
absolute authority as is sufficient for all purposes, yet are they in
truth so dependent both on the senate and the people, that without
their assistance they are by no means able to accomplish any design.
It is well known that armies demand a continual supply of necessities.
But neither corn, nor habits, nor even the military stipends, can at
any time be transmitted to the legions unless by an express order of
the senate. Any opposition, therefore, or delay, on the part of this
assembly, is sufficient always to defeat the enterprises of the
generals. It is the senate, likewise, that either compels the consuls
to leave their designs imperfect, or enables them to complete the
projects which they have formed, by sending a successor into each of
their several provinces, upon the expiration of the annual term, or by
continuing them in the same command. The senate also has the power to
aggrandize and amplify the victories that are gained, or, on the
contrary, to depreciate and debase them. For that which is called
among the Romans a triumph, in which a sensible representation of the
actions of the generals is exposed in solemn procession to the view of
all the citizens, can neither be exhibited with due pomp and splendor,
nor, indeed, be in any other manner celebrated, unless the consent of
the senate be first obtained, together with the sums that are
requisite for the expense. Nor is it less necessary, on the other
hand, that the consuls, how soever far they may happen to be removed
from Rome, should be careful to preserve the good affections of the
people. For the people, as we have already mentioned, annuls or
ratifies all treaties. But that which is of greatest moment is that
the consuls, at the time of laying down their office are bound to
submit their past administration to the judgment of the people. And
thus these magistrates can at no time think themselves secure, if they
neglect to gain the approbation both of the senate and the people.
In the same manner the senate also, though invested with so great
authority, is bound to yield a certain attention to the people, and to
act in concert with them in all affairs that are of great importance.
With regard especially to those offences that are committed against
the state, and which demand a capital punishment, no inquiry can be
perfected, nor any judgment carried into execution, unless the people
confirm what the senate has before decreed. Nor are the things which
more immediately regard the senate itself less subject than the same
control. For if a law should at any time be proposed to lessen the
received authority of the senators, to detract from their honors and
pre-eminence, or even deprive them of a part of their possessions, it
belongs wholly to the people to establish or reject it. And even still
more, the interposition of a single tribune is sufficient, not only to
suspend the deliberations of the senate, but to prevent them also from
holding any meeting or assembly. Now the peculiar office of the
tribunes is to declare those sentiments that are most pleasing to the
people: and principally to promote their interests and designs. And
thus the senate, on account of all these reasons, is forced to
cultivate the favor and gratify the inclinations of the people.
The people again, on their part, are held in dependence on the senate,
both to the particular members, and to the general body. In every part
of Italy there are works of various kinds, which are let to farm by
the censors, such are the building or repairing of the public
edifices, which are almost innumerable; the care of rivers, harbors,
mines and lands; every thing, in a word, that falls beneath the
dominion of the Romans. In all these things the people are the
undertakers: inasmuch as there are scarcely any to be found that are
not in some way involved, either in the contracts, or in the
management of the works. For some take the farms of the censors at a
certain price; others become partners with the first. Some, again,
engage themselves as sureties for the farmers; and others, in support
also of these sureties, pledge their own fortunes to the state. Now,
the supreme direction of all these affairs is placed wholly in the
senate. The senate has the power to allot a longer time, to lighten
the conditions of the agreement, in case that any accident has
intervened, or even to release the contractors from their bargain, if
the terms should be found impracticable. There are also many other
circumstances in which those that are engaged in any of the public
works may be either greatly injured or greatly benefited by the
senate; since to this body, as we have already observed, all things
that belong to these transactions are constantly referred. But there
is still another advantage of much greater moment. For from this
order, likewise, judges are selected, in almost every accusation of
considerable weight, whether it be of a public or private nature. The
people, therefore, being by these means held under due subjection and
restraint, and doubtful of obtaining that protection, which they
foresee that they may at some time want, are always cautious of
exciting any opposition to the measures of the senate. Nor are they,
on the other hand, less ready to pay obedience to the orders of the
consuls; through the dread of that supreme authority, to which the
citizens in general, as well as each particular man, are obnoxious in
the field.
Thus, while each of these separate parts is enabled either to assist
or obstruct the rest, the government, by the apt contexture of them
all in the general frame, is so well secured against every accident,
that it seems scarcely possible to invent a more perfect system. For
when the dread of any common danger, that threatens from abroad,
constrains all the orders of the state to unite together, and
co-operate with joint assistance; such is the strength of the republic
that as, on the one hand, no measures that are necessary are
neglected, while all men fix their thoughts upon the present exigency;
so neither is it possible, on the other hand, that their designs
should at any time be frustrated through the want of due celerity,
because all in general, as well as every citizen in particular, employ
their utmost efforts to carry what has been determined into execution.
Thus the government, by the very form and peculiar nature of its
constitution, is equally enabled to resist all attacks, and to
accomplish every purpose. And when again all apprehensions of foreign
enemies are past, and the Romans being now settled in tranquility, and
enjoying at their leisure all the fruits of victory, begin to yield to
the seduction of ease and plenty, and, as it happens usually in such
conjunctures, become haughty and ungovernable; then chiefly may we
observe in what manner the same constitution likewise finds in itself
a remedy against the impending danger. For whenever either of the
separate parts of the republic attempts to exceed its proper limits,
excites contention and dispute, and struggles to obtain a greater
share of power, than that which is assigned to it by the laws, it is
manifest, that since no one single part, as we have shown in this
discourse, is in itself supreme or absolute, but that on the contrary,
the powers which are assigned to each are still subject to reciprocal
control, the part, which thus aspires, must soon be reduced again
within its own just bounds, and not be suffered to insult or depress
the rest. And thus the several orders, of which the state is framed,
are forced always to maintain their due position: being partly
counter-worked in their designs; and partly also restrained from
making any attempt, by the dread of falling under that authority to
which they are exposed.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Value of a Mixed Constitution (long) |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:24:17 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Thank you for posting this, Propraetor Lucius Sicinius. It is always
wonderful to read Polybius.
Vale,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> Salve Quirites,
>
> It seems that some of our citizens wish to upset the balance between
> the elements of our mixed constitution by increasing it's Democratic
> elements. Polybios' Analysis of the Roman Government was the first
> (and remains one of the best) Analysis of the value of a mixed
> Constitution, and the systems of Checks and balances that in entails.
> I Shall let his words stand on their own.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> An Analysis of the Roman Government:
>
> THE THREE kinds of government, monarchy, aristocracy and democracy,
> were all found united in the commonwealth of Rome. And so even was the
> balance between them all, and so regular the administration that
> resulted from their union, that it was no easy thing to determine with
> assurance, whether the entire state was to be estimated an
> aristocracy, a democracy, or a monarchy. For if they turned their view
> upon the power of the consuls, the government appeared to be purely
> monarchical and regal. If, again, the authority of the senate was
> considered, it then seemed to wear the form of aristocracy. And,
> lastly, if regard was to be had to the share which the people
> possessed in the administration of affairs, it could then scarcely
> fail to be denominated a popular state. The several powers that were
> appropriated to each of these distinct branches of the constitution at
> the time of which we are speaking, and which, with very little
> variation, are even still preserved, are these which follow.
>
> The consuls, when they remain in Rome, before they lead out the armies
> into the field, are the masters of all public affairs. For all other
> magistrates, the tribunes alone excepted, are subject to them, and
> bound to obey their commands. They introduce ambassadors into the
> senate. They propose also to the senate the subjects of debates; and
> direct all forms that are observed in making the decrees. Nor is it
> less a part of their office likewise, to attend to those affairs that
> are transacted by the people; to call together general assemblies; to
> report to them the resolutions of the senate; and to ratify whatever
> is determined by the greater number. In all the preparations that are
> made for war, as well as in the whole administration in the field,
> they possess an almost absolute authority. For to them it belongs to
> impose upon the allies whatever services they judge expedient; to
> appoint the military tribunes; to enroll the legions, and make the
> necessary levies, and to inflict punishments in the field, upon all
> that are subject to their command. Add to this, that they have the
> power likewise to expend whatever sums of money they may think
> convenient from the public treasury; being attended for that purpose
> by a quaestor; who is always ready to receive and execute their
> orders. When any one therefore, directs his view to this part of the
> constitution, it is very reasonable for him to conclude that this
> government is no other than a simple royalty. Let me only observe,
> that if in some of these particular points, or in those that will
> hereafter be mentioned, any change should be either now remarked, or
> should happen at some future time, such an alteration will not destroy
> the general principles of this discourse.
>
> To the senate belongs, in the first place, the sole care and
> management of the public money. For all returns that are brought into
> the treasury, as well as all the payments that are issued from it, are
> directed by their orders. Nor is it allowed to the quaestors to apply
> any part of the revenue to particular occasions as they arise, without
> a decree of the senate; those sums alone excepted. which are expended
> in the service of the consuls. And even those more general, as well as
> greatest disbursements, which are employed at the return every five
> years, in building and repairing the public edifices, are assigned to
> the censors for that purpose, by the express permission of the senate.
> To the senate also is referred the cognizance of all the crimes,
> committed in any part of Italy, that demand a public examination and
> inquiry: such as treasons, conspiracies, poisonings, and
> assassinations. Add to this, that when any controversies arise, either
> between private men, or any of the cities of Italy, it is the part of
> the senate to adjust all disputes; to censure those that are deserving
> of blame: and to yield assistance to those who stand in need of
> protection and defense. When any embassies are sent out of Italy;
> either to reconcile contending states; to offer exhortations and
> advice; or even, as it sometimes happens, to impose commands; to
> propose conditions of a treaty; or to make a denunciation of war; the
> care and conduct of all these transactions is entrusted wholly to the
> senate. When any ambassadors also arrive in Rome, it is the senate
> likewise that determines how they shall be received and treated, and
> what answer shall be given to their demands.
>
> In all these things that have now been mentioned, the people has no
> share. To those, therefore, who come to reside in Rome during the
> absence of the consuls, the government appears to be purely
> aristocratic. Many of the Greeks, especially, and of the foreign
> princes, are easily led into this persuasion: when they perceive that
> almost all the affairs, which they are forced to negotiate with the
> Romans, are determined by the senate.
>
> And now it may well be asked, what part is left to the people in this
> government: since the senate, on the one hand, is vested with the
> sovereign power, in the several instances that have been enumerated,
> and more especially in all things that concern the management and
> disposal of the public treasure; and since the consuls, on the other
> hand, are entrusted with the absolute direction of the preparations
> that are made for war, and exercise an uncontrolled authority on the
> field. There is, however, a part still allotted to the people; and,
> indeed, the most important part. For, first, the people are the sole
> dispensers of rewards and punishments; which are the only bands by
> which states and kingdoms, and, in a word, all human societies, are
> held together. For when the difference between these is overlooked, or
> when they are distributed without due distinction, nothing but
> disorder can ensue. Nor is it possible, indeed, that the government
> should be maintained if the wicked stand in equal estimation with the
> good. The people, then, when any such offences demand such punishment,
> frequently condemn citizens to the payment of a fine: those especially
> who have been invested with the dignities of the state. To the people
> alone belongs the right to sentence any one to die. Upon this occasion
> they have a custom which deserves to be mentioned with applause. The
> person accused is allowed to withdraw himself in open view, and
> embrace a voluntary banishment, if only a single tribe remains that
> has not yet given judgment; and is suffered to retire in safety to
> Praeneste, Tibur, Naples, or any other of the confederate cities. The
> public magistrates are allotted also by the people to those who are
> esteemed worthy of them: and these are the noblest rewards that any
> government can bestow on virtue. To the people belongs the power of
> approving or rejecting laws and, which is still of greater importance,
> peace and war are likewise fixed by their deliberations. When any
> alliance is concluded, any war ended, or treaty made; to them the
> conditions are referred, and by them either annulled or ratified. And
> thus again, from a view of all these circumstances, it might with
> reason be imagined, that the people had engrossed the largest portion
> of the government, and that the state was plainly a democracy.
>
> Such are the parts of the administration, which are distinctly
> assigned to each of the three forms of government, that are united in
> the commonwealth of Rome. It now remains to be considered, in what
> manner each several form is enabled to counteract the others, or to
> cooperate with them.
>
> When the consuls, invested with the power that has been mentioned,
> lead the armies into the field, though they seem, indeed, to hold such
> absolute authority as is sufficient for all purposes, yet are they in
> truth so dependent both on the senate and the people, that without
> their assistance they are by no means able to accomplish any design.
> It is well known that armies demand a continual supply of necessities.
> But neither corn, nor habits, nor even the military stipends, can at
> any time be transmitted to the legions unless by an express order of
> the senate. Any opposition, therefore, or delay, on the part of this
> assembly, is sufficient always to defeat the enterprises of the
> generals. It is the senate, likewise, that either compels the consuls
> to leave their designs imperfect, or enables them to complete the
> projects which they have formed, by sending a successor into each of
> their several provinces, upon the expiration of the annual term, or by
> continuing them in the same command. The senate also has the power to
> aggrandize and amplify the victories that are gained, or, on the
> contrary, to depreciate and debase them. For that which is called
> among the Romans a triumph, in which a sensible representation of the
> actions of the generals is exposed in solemn procession to the view of
> all the citizens, can neither be exhibited with due pomp and splendor,
> nor, indeed, be in any other manner celebrated, unless the consent of
> the senate be first obtained, together with the sums that are
> requisite for the expense. Nor is it less necessary, on the other
> hand, that the consuls, how soever far they may happen to be removed
> from Rome, should be careful to preserve the good affections of the
> people. For the people, as we have already mentioned, annuls or
> ratifies all treaties. But that which is of greatest moment is that
> the consuls, at the time of laying down their office are bound to
> submit their past administration to the judgment of the people. And
> thus these magistrates can at no time think themselves secure, if they
> neglect to gain the approbation both of the senate and the people.
>
> In the same manner the senate also, though invested with so great
> authority, is bound to yield a certain attention to the people, and to
> act in concert with them in all affairs that are of great importance.
> With regard especially to those offences that are committed against
> the state, and which demand a capital punishment, no inquiry can be
> perfected, nor any judgment carried into execution, unless the people
> confirm what the senate has before decreed. Nor are the things which
> more immediately regard the senate itself less subject than the same
> control. For if a law should at any time be proposed to lessen the
> received authority of the senators, to detract from their honors and
> pre-eminence, or even deprive them of a part of their possessions, it
> belongs wholly to the people to establish or reject it. And even still
> more, the interposition of a single tribune is sufficient, not only to
> suspend the deliberations of the senate, but to prevent them also from
> holding any meeting or assembly. Now the peculiar office of the
> tribunes is to declare those sentiments that are most pleasing to the
> people: and principally to promote their interests and designs. And
> thus the senate, on account of all these reasons, is forced to
> cultivate the favor and gratify the inclinations of the people.
>
> The people again, on their part, are held in dependence on the senate,
> both to the particular members, and to the general body. In every part
> of Italy there are works of various kinds, which are let to farm by
> the censors, such are the building or repairing of the public
> edifices, which are almost innumerable; the care of rivers, harbors,
> mines and lands; every thing, in a word, that falls beneath the
> dominion of the Romans. In all these things the people are the
> undertakers: inasmuch as there are scarcely any to be found that are
> not in some way involved, either in the contracts, or in the
> management of the works. For some take the farms of the censors at a
> certain price; others become partners with the first. Some, again,
> engage themselves as sureties for the farmers; and others, in support
> also of these sureties, pledge their own fortunes to the state. Now,
> the supreme direction of all these affairs is placed wholly in the
> senate. The senate has the power to allot a longer time, to lighten
> the conditions of the agreement, in case that any accident has
> intervened, or even to release the contractors from their bargain, if
> the terms should be found impracticable. There are also many other
> circumstances in which those that are engaged in any of the public
> works may be either greatly injured or greatly benefited by the
> senate; since to this body, as we have already observed, all things
> that belong to these transactions are constantly referred. But there
> is still another advantage of much greater moment. For from this
> order, likewise, judges are selected, in almost every accusation of
> considerable weight, whether it be of a public or private nature. The
> people, therefore, being by these means held under due subjection and
> restraint, and doubtful of obtaining that protection, which they
> foresee that they may at some time want, are always cautious of
> exciting any opposition to the measures of the senate. Nor are they,
> on the other hand, less ready to pay obedience to the orders of the
> consuls; through the dread of that supreme authority, to which the
> citizens in general, as well as each particular man, are obnoxious in
> the field.
>
> Thus, while each of these separate parts is enabled either to assist
> or obstruct the rest, the government, by the apt contexture of them
> all in the general frame, is so well secured against every accident,
> that it seems scarcely possible to invent a more perfect system. For
> when the dread of any common danger, that threatens from abroad,
> constrains all the orders of the state to unite together, and
> co-operate with joint assistance; such is the strength of the republic
> that as, on the one hand, no measures that are necessary are
> neglected, while all men fix their thoughts upon the present exigency;
> so neither is it possible, on the other hand, that their designs
> should at any time be frustrated through the want of due celerity,
> because all in general, as well as every citizen in particular, employ
> their utmost efforts to carry what has been determined into execution.
> Thus the government, by the very form and peculiar nature of its
> constitution, is equally enabled to resist all attacks, and to
> accomplish every purpose. And when again all apprehensions of foreign
> enemies are past, and the Romans being now settled in tranquility, and
> enjoying at their leisure all the fruits of victory, begin to yield to
> the seduction of ease and plenty, and, as it happens usually in such
> conjunctures, become haughty and ungovernable; then chiefly may we
> observe in what manner the same constitution likewise finds in itself
> a remedy against the impending danger. For whenever either of the
> separate parts of the republic attempts to exceed its proper limits,
> excites contention and dispute, and struggles to obtain a greater
> share of power, than that which is assigned to it by the laws, it is
> manifest, that since no one single part, as we have shown in this
> discourse, is in itself supreme or absolute, but that on the contrary,
> the powers which are assigned to each are still subject to reciprocal
> control, the part, which thus aspires, must soon be reduced again
> within its own just bounds, and not be suffered to insult or depress
> the rest. And thus the several orders, of which the state is framed,
> are forced always to maintain their due position: being partly
> counter-worked in their designs; and partly also restrained from
> making any attempt, by the dread of falling under that authority to
> which they are exposed.
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Here's a Volunteer |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <dalmaticus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:51:11 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete,
> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> <haase@-------->
> Subject: Re: Re: more on Centuries
>
<clipped>
> If someone will volunteer to become a scribe, to
> look through the
> archives for historical events that would cause
> citizens to receive
> points (such as political campaigns), to enter this
> data, and to respond
>
> to mail from citizens who say that their point
> values are incorrect,
> then the point totals can become accurate.
>
> Contact the Censores if you are willing to
> contribute to fixing the
> century points.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
I volunteer.
Dalmaticus
=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies out of the trunk." -- anonymous
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:56:48 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Marce Apolloni,
> Because he is so personally involved in these
> matters and knows them so well, he may not understand that
> when he wrote that certain categories of points owed
> various cives were "never" entered into the data base, I
> naturally assumed that he meant since the inception of the
> original version of the database and the beginning of the
> whole century-point system.
You immediately assumed the worst because of your dislike for the
Censores and myself. Rather than investigating, rather than asking
any questions privately, you made a libelous public accusation of
lawbreaking. All of this could have been avoided if you had exercised
some restraint and tried to learn the facts before assuming conspiracy.
> Perhaps Octavius did not perceive that I was trying to
> express my concern about the present situation without
> naming names or expressing myself in any way extremely. The
> comment in question was deliberately understated, and was
> even so much so as to be (I had hoped) dryly humorous.
Humorous? I've reread it five times now and still fail to see anything
even slightly humorous about it. You accused the Censores of breaking
a law. You wrote:
>> 1) The laws for the assignment of century points have been simply and
>> silently neglected and ignored.
The word for that is "libelous", not "humorous".
> Since he insists on making a direct personal attack,
YOU made the first personal attack. You accused us of breaking laws,
without any proof, without attempting to first learn the truth of
the matter. My "personal attack" was in response to your own.
No one here is fooled by your attempts to play the victim, Formosanus.
You made an unprovoked attack on the Censores and myself, and that
has been preserved in the mailing list archives for all to see.
My response was to accuse you of being motivated by your personal
dislike for the Censores and myself. I firmly believe this to be
true, and I stand by my statement that you are pursuing a vendetta.
> I shall reply that if a certain censor had let well
> enough alone,
[dead horseflesh removed]
> That piece of prejudiced and unfair legislation, which is
> festering in our Tabularium and undermining any claim we
> may have to be a nation of justice, is unfinished business.
It certainly is finished. The people have spoken, and they have
rejected your position.
Some people thought the cause of the Confederate States of America
was "unfinished business" after April of 1865. They were mistaken.
> However, I did not intend to raise it on this unrelated
> occasion, but only do so because Octavius let his personal
> animosity get the better of him and dredged it up to no
> good purpose,
This is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
You libeled the Censores and myself, without provocation.
You accused us of failing to obey the law. You accused us of malfeasance
in office. And you did so out of your own "personal animosity", as is
made quite clear by all of your dredging up of the long-buried
"transgender" issue.
I think my own response to such an extreme and unwarranted attack was
reasonable and understated. I did not libel you with unfounded and
untrue accusations of malfeasance in office; I merely responded to your
false accusations, and in one paragraph, speculated on your motives.
You wear your vendetta on your shirt for all to see, and no one is
fooled by your attempts to portray yourself as the injured party here.
YOU STRUCK FIRST. YOU posted because of personal animosity, and
all I did was to respond. YOU were the aggressor here.
> But I consider my most valuable
> contribution to Nova Roma to be my campaign for justice in
> the case of Marius, my co-founding of the Amici Dignitatis,
> my campaign against linguistic chauvinism, and my warnings
> over the dangers of oligarchy. Criticism of evils is a very
> precious thing for any human society that is not perfect
> (i.e all human societies). And yet it is made so unwelcome
> here (as Octavius' unnecessary comments above show) that I
> cannot see it in the near future being rewarded as it
> deserves, nor do I know how to quantify it.
You think you "deserve" rewards for having strong opinions, and for
harping on the same issues endlessly? In that case, I should get the
same rewards, as I've spent nearly as much time as you have debating
the same issues.
Or do you think rewards should go only to those who agree with you?
(I wouldn't be at all surprised).
> Those who want to "build" and consider warnings that the building
> is on moral sand and bound to collapse to be just a
> malicious waste of time will not appreciate the degree of
> effort
When persons are engaged in building on a foundation of reinforced
concrete, and some madman repeatedly barges in to the construction
site raving about sand and imminent collapse, naturally they will
not be appreciative.
> Nova Roma if it is to be a decent and respectable
> institution in the 21st C.E. century must not be a haven
> for right-wing or authoritarian political malcontents who
> just cannot stand the growth of democracy and equality in
> society at large,
More unfounded name-calling. It seems that everyone who disagrees with
you on any issue whatseover is "right-wing" or "authoritarian" or
"ultra right-wing".
Where are these imaginary right-wing authoritarians you keep babbling
about? I'm certainly not one of them. I am a paid member of the
ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) and the anti-censorship
Electronic Frontier Foundation, the group that recently negotiated
the release of the unjustly imprisoned Dimitry Sklyarov. You already
knew that, of course, but it's easier for you to inveigh against
some mythical right-wingers than to attack the real positions of
your opponent.
You hope that if you mention these mythical right-wingers often
enough that the people may actually start to believe that they
exist. This tactic is known as "the Big Lie", and I for one find
it contemptible. In the interests of balance, should I start
referring to you as a "communist infiltrator" or somesuch nonsense?
> So, keep the basic institutions of centurues and the
> Comitia Centuriata out of respect for the tradition, but
> remove the venom of inequality in public decision-making
> and voting from it. It is not wanted today.
Do you also favor removing the Comitial Plebis Tributa, in which
only two-thirds of the citizens can vote? If not, then all your
purported dislike for "inequality" is a lie.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Scribae Censorium |
| From: |
"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:04:16 -0400 |
|
Ex Domo Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
I take pleasure in announcing the appointment of Propraetor Brasiliae Marcus Arminius Maior et Luperci Fabiani Sextus Apollonius Draco et Lucius Cornelius Dalmaticus ut Scribae Censorium.
I would also like to thank those other noble citizens who also volunteered and I request that they remain ready step into the ranks should we require additional assistance. That we received more volunteers than we believe we require is a very positive sign. It is my hope that when the elections begin Nova Roma will no longer have a shortage of candidates and each office will be contested by enthusiastic and able Romani.
Nova Roma will have over one thousand citizens as soon as the voting in the Comita Centuriata is concluded and we are able to approve those pending applications that have been accepted as new Gens members by their prospective Patres et Matres.
Bene omnibus nobis!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points |
| From: |
Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:54:10 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Cant we all just get along? :o)
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Nova Roma Gathering in Ohio |
| From: |
Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:30:06 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete,
I have just made an attempt to individually contact
each citizen of Lacus Magni. If you are from Ohio,
Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Kentucky, Wisconsin, or
West Virginia, and you did not receive an email from
me, please contact me ASAP. About a dozen citizens
came up with invalid emails, and several did not have
emails listed at all. Also, I want to again invite
anyone from outside of the Provincia to attend. Below
is a list of what we have planned.
October 13, 2001
09:45 Opening Ceremonies/Benediction to the gods
10:00 Event opens to the public.
Religio Romana Exibit
Sodalitas Militarium Exibit
Money Changer (selling NR coins)
Oratory Contest (Topic to be on Taxation.)
Art contest (any form)
Gladiatorial Combat (Scripted)
Olympic Games (to be announced)
Roman Theater (to be announced)
Roman fashion show
FOOD!
The event will end at 5:00 pm, and for those who have
RSVPed in advance, we will be holding a private
"Roman" dinner from 6-9:00. There will be prizes
awarded for the various contests, and everyone
attending the dinner, will receive a special keepsake.
Bene,
M. Scipio Africanus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma Gathering in Ohio |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:16:59 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Please take pics.. <g> I love viewing pics! Good luck on your meeting.
I will be attending in spirit!
Vale,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
Shane Evans wrote:
>
> Salvete,
> I have just made an attempt to individually contact
> each citizen of Lacus Magni. If you are from Ohio,
> Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Kentucky, Wisconsin, or
> West Virginia, and you did not receive an email from
> me, please contact me ASAP. About a dozen citizens
> came up with invalid emails, and several did not have
> emails listed at all. Also, I want to again invite
> anyone from outside of the Provincia to attend. Below
> is a list of what we have planned.
>
> October 13, 2001
> 09:45 Opening Ceremonies/Benediction to the gods
> 10:00 Event opens to the public.
> Religio Romana Exibit
> Sodalitas Militarium Exibit
> Money Changer (selling NR coins)
> Oratory Contest (Topic to be on Taxation.)
> Art contest (any form)
> Gladiatorial Combat (Scripted)
> Olympic Games (to be announced)
> Roman Theater (to be announced)
> Roman fashion show
> FOOD!
>
> The event will end at 5:00 pm, and for those who have
> RSVPed in advance, we will be holding a private
> "Roman" dinner from 6-9:00. There will be prizes
> awarded for the various contests, and everyone
> attending the dinner, will receive a special keepsake.
>
> Bene,
> M. Scipio Africanus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo!
> Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
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>
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Value of a Mixed Constitution |
| From: |
"Maia Apollonia Pica" <mjarc@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:56:42 +0200 |
|
Salvete omnes, salve Luci Sicini Druse,
English below.
To bardzo ciekawy tekst, a bedzie jeszcze ciekawszy, jak dostane w
rece calosc, a nie jeden fragment. :) Ale omawia inne zagadnienie,
prawda?
Rownowaga, o ktorej pisal Polibiusz, dotyczyla trzech sil: konsulow,
senatu i ludu. Problem, o ktorym rozmawiamy, dotyczy rownowagi - albo
braku rownowagi - w obrebie jednej z tych trzech sil: sposobu
rozlozenia glosow miedzy ludxmi. Czy moze xle zrozumialam?
A, i widze, ze niepotrzebnie matwilam sie o uprzejmosc.
This is very interesting reading and will be more so when I lay my
hands on more than an excerpt. :) But it argues for a different
issue, doesn't it?
The balance Polybios wrote of was between the three powers: the
consuls, the senate and the people. The problem we are discussing is
the balance, or lack of balance, within just one of these three
powers: the way votes are distributed among the people. Or do I have
it wring?
Ah, and I see I needn't have worried about politeness.
Valete
Maia Apollonia Pica
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Value of a Mixed Constitution |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:09:34 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- Maia Apollonia Pica <mjarc@-------->
wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes, salve Luci Sicini Druse,
>
> English below.
>
> To bardzo ciekawy tekst, a bedzie jeszcze ciekawszy,
> jak dostane w
> rece calosc, a nie jeden fragment. :) Ale omawia
> inne zagadnienie,
> prawda?
>
> Rownowaga, o ktorej pisal Polibiusz, dotyczyla
> trzech sil: konsulow,
> senatu i ludu. Problem, o ktorym rozmawiamy, dotyczy
> rownowagi - albo
> braku rownowagi - w obrebie jednej z tych trzech
> sil: sposobu
> rozlozenia glosow miedzy ludxmi. Czy moze xle
> zrozumialam?
>
> A, i widze, ze niepotrzebnie matwilam sie o
> uprzejmosc.
>
> This is very interesting reading and will be more so
> when I lay my
> hands on more than an excerpt. :) But it argues for
> a different
> issue, doesn't it?
>
> The balance Polybios wrote of was between the three
> powers: the
> consuls, the senate and the people. The problem we
> are discussing is
> the balance, or lack of balance, within just one of
> these three
> powers: the way votes are distributed among the
> people. Or do I have
> it wring?
>
> Ah, and I see I needn't have worried about
> politeness.
>
> Valete
> Maia Apollonia Pica
>
>
Salvete,
The Democratic element in our government is the Tribal
assemblies, and the Tribunes of the Plebs. The Votes
ARE distributed Democraticly there. All Taxpaying
citizens who Vote are distributed evenly.
The Centuries main function is to Elect the
Magistrates , who are the Monarchal element in our
Constitution. If the Centuries were set up on a
Democratic principle, the Magistrates would echo the
Tribunes in their mandate. They would become part of
the Democratic element, leaving no Monarchial element.
This would leave the Democratic element in control of
The Comitiae, The Magistrates, and the Tribunes. The
Senate would have a very hard time placing checks on
this strengthened Democratic element, paving the way
for the Degeneration into class warfare that occurs in
a pure Democracy.
Monarchy degenerates into Tyranny. Aristocracy
degenerates into Oligarchy. Democracy degenerates into
class warfare. THAT is why a mixed Constitution is
vital. The competion between the elements prevents the
degeneration.
If the Democratic element becomes dominant, then it's
just a matter of time before the Demogauges start
stirring up hatred between groups of voters that they
can exploit in their quest for power.
Valete
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:53:21 +0200 |
|
Ave Marce Octavi,
(snip)
> You hope that if you mention these mythical right-wingers often
> enough that the people may actually start to believe that they
> exist. This tactic is known as "the Big Lie", and I for one find
> it contemptible. In the interests of balance, should I start
> referring to you as a "communist infiltrator" or somesuch nonsense?
>
Well, in fact this already happened; I fondly remember Nerva's "Nova Roma
Apollonia" flag with hammer and sickle. Despite the fact that I don't have
communist sympathies, and think of maoism and stalinism as horrible, I had a
good laugh. I think we should all relativate ourselves. The often very
emotional responses to allegations of being rightist, statist or fascist
(allegations that are in itself emotional) should therefore also be
relativated, and such harsh responses pique more suspicion than they settle
anything.
Note that I do not believe that you are a right wing politician, and also
note that, while I find myself in the left wing, I disagree _with respect_
on issues that my political oponnents and I have different views of. It's
usually not the opinions here that matter, but personalities, when it comes
down to politics, so the real clash is more between characters than it is
between ideologies, which is all too often a good mask to veil one's hatred,
which I have experienced many times here in NR.
Vale bene,
Draco
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