| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:07:52 -0500 |
|
Salvete
> Just for curiosity's sake. Was there opposition to that proposal when
> it was first presented to the Comitia?
I certainly don't remember any. Assuming my memory is serving me well,
it passed unanimously among those centuries that contained voters. We
(Nova Roma as a whole) just didn't think it through as well as we ought
to have.
>>As an aside, those irregularities did not make any difference in the
>>outcome of that vote. We checked.
>
> Which irregularities, if I may ask?
The number of centuries assigned to each class by the censores did not
match the numbers given in Lex Vedia Centuriata. At the time, there
were one-person centuriae into the fourth class, so it really didn't
make a difference. C Marius felt that having a flexible schedule of
centuriae per class would be a way to ensure that the situation didn't
occur again. We really should have realized what we were doing, but
errare humanum est.
> Then, why has Octavius Germanicus stated, on his previous message, that
> the issue was about the lack of time to discuss the proposals?
He would be best able to answer that question. If pressed, I would
guess that it is because he feels that that was the most important
issue. Both complaints, and others, were raised at the time.
> Thank you, Tribune. You have been very helpful.
You're quite welcome.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:23:38 -0500 (CDT) |
|
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Fortunatus wrote:
Salve,
> > Then, why has Octavius Germanicus stated, on his previous message, that
> > the issue was about the lack of time to discuss the proposals?
>
> He would be best able to answer that question. If pressed, I would
> guess that it is because he feels that that was the most important
> issue. Both complaints, and others, were raised at the time.
Exactly. There were multiple issues - the lack of time to properly
debate the laws; the fact that most of them were completely unexpected
and had never been discussed at all; the unfairness of patricians being
unable to vote on laws that affect all of us; and, of course, lingering
distrust left over from the heated elections of December.
Vale, O.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] "Mock Trial" Iudices needed. |
| From: |
PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:27:16 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve,
I, too would like to volunteer to serve as a juror.
Vale,
Pompeia Antonia Caesaria
-- QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:
> In a message dated 8/28/01 9:35:46 AM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> marcusafricanus@-------- writes:
>
>
> > I will be willing to serve.
> >
> > marcusafricanus@--------
> > M. Scipio Africanus
> >
>
> Salve M. Scipio Africane
> You are the XI juror. Thank you for your interest.
> Vale
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:08:54 -0000 |
|
>
> MAF: Yes, we do. I hope it is a stage that we shall
> outgrow. Perhaps Sulla was trying to urge us to say
> "aristocratic" rather than "oligarchic"?
ACS: Which definition (based on what Sulla provided) are you attempting
to illustrate?
To my democratic
> ears that sounds about the same,
ACS: But you are a learned man... What ARE the differences exactly?
Because, according to my education. There are differences between the
two.. And I am not in the practice of flying my education banner for
all to see.So, please do not ask of it.
but if enough members of
> the oligarchy
ACS: Using blanket statements AGAIN are we?
would prefer to be called "aristocrats" maybe
> we should agree, since I am not interested in insulting
> people with words,
ACS: Calling certain person(s) an "oligarch" IS insulting. Considering
the meaning of that term. Which I am sure that you know the real
meaning of.
but in identifying a socio-political
> problem that we have.
ACS: Socio-political? First, Society cannot be an exact science,
considering the human factor.Thus, not being able to pinpoint what
everyone his happy with. Political? something that can be used for one
person's view on how things should be, is a dangerous mixture within a
society.
Thank you for your time,
A. Corvus Septimius
SEMPER FIDELIS
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Citizen application and NR coins?? |
| From: |
John Marck Osborne <john@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:20:54 -0500 |
|
I applied for citizenship quite some time ago now, and I still haven't
heard back from anyone. Can anyone help me with this?
Also, I ordered my NR coins on July 12 and still haven't received them,
even though I've seen other people in here state that they had received
their coins. Anyone have any information on this as well?
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] oil lamps |
| From: |
"scott dolleck" <billgatesson@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:07:30 +0000 |
|
Salvete Omnes.
I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
Does anyone know where in the US I can find "real"(replica)
functional roman oil lamps?
Valete.
Lucius Avisius Seneca
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] oil lamps |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:40:56 -0500 |
|
Salve Luci Avisi
> I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
> Does anyone know where in the US I can find "real"(replica)
> functional roman oil lamps?
I'd suggest these, for starters:
http://www.eganbronze.com/Pages/indexnew.html (nice, but quite pricey)
http://oil_lamps.tripod.com/
I've got a couple of lamps from the latter one, and have been quite
pleased with them.
Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] oil lamps |
| From: |
asseri@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:58:19 EDT |
|
Salve!
yes, I can tell you were you can have one commissioned. I have a
friend who is a potter by trade who made one for me. It was $25. 00
It holds about a cup of olive oil. it is fired unglazed clay but I
did have him glaze the inside to keep oil leakage from being a problem. I
braid my own wick with five strands of pure cotton cord. it burns pretty darn
good.
I have commissioned one that will burn three wicks. The good potter
Hoar is moving back to my town next month so I will be able to get him more
ideas for Roman creations
I love my lamp! In fact I have been able to show it to M. Scipio
Africanus - Legatus, Lacus Magni Orientalis so he can speak of its humble
beauty if you seek a second opinion. Unfortunately he doesn't have a picture
of a Roman lamp.
Here is the website of the Potters <A HREF="http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/hroar/">StarHammer Ceramics home page</A>
http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/hroar/
Valve
Fabia Ancinna Drusila
( sheika Aminah bint Abdullah al'Asseri in the SCA )
(and I thought our names were long )
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:49:31 -0300 |
|
Salvete,
>> MAF: Yes, we do. I hope it is a stage that we shall
>> outgrow. Perhaps Sulla was trying to urge us to say
>> "aristocratic" rather than "oligarchic"?
>
>ACS: Which definition (based on what Sulla provided) are you attempting
>to illustrate?
>
>
>>To my democratic
>> ears that sounds about the same,
>
>ACS: But you are a learned man... What ARE the differences exactly?
>Because, according to my education. There are differences between the
>two.. And I am not in the practice of flying my education banner for
>all to see.So, please do not ask of it.
We definitively have no aristocracy, if you prefer ploutocracy instead of
oligarchy we can use that one, these 2 terms are classically equivalent while
aristocraty implies some birth right I don t see in NR.
>> but if enough members of
>> the oligarchy
> ACS: Using blanket statements AGAIN are we?
>>would prefer to be called "aristocrats" maybe
>> we should agree, since I am not interested in insulting
>> people with words,
>ACS: Calling certain person(s) an "oligarch" IS insulting. Considering
>the meaning of that term. Which I am sure that you know the real
>meaning of.
the real meaning is "government of the few/rare" I fail to see what is
insulting in this. I understand why our ploutocrats "the few that govern"
would like to be called aristocrats "the better that govern", but on one side
I don t conder most of them as aristoi, and this is definitively insulting
for most republicans (european sense of the word).
Vale,
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Digest No1591 |
| From: |
"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:25:30 -0400 |
|
Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
If I may, I'd like to address a few items below.
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:12:28 +0200
From: "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Subject: Re: Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries
Salvete Omnes!
Limitanus has given us a good analysis of the traditional
Roman system of republican government and ours.
>SNIP<
I have a few questions about the Comitia Centuriata. I have
the impression that the censores are free to assign a
number of centuries to each class as they see fit. Is this
impression correct?
Anyway, it is true that an abnormal (and antihistorical)
level of reelection does occur.
CINCINNATUS: It is my 'opinion' that, more than Formosanus' assertion, for
the number of "abnormal (and antihistorical) level of reelection(s)" the
real reasons are that there are few interested candidates and there are, as
yet, too few citizens to expect that there will be a complete turnover when
we have elections *each year*. What other nation holds major elections every
year for every position?
I think that at the end of the first year there were barely 100 citizens.
The beginning of this year there were ~600. Until the last election we never
had enought candidates to fill all the open positions, let alone have them
all contested! So, is it really a surprize that those of us who are truly
commited to see Nova Roma succeed have taken up the standard?
Now, in the case of the last vote. The new citizens were added to the
centuries according to law, AND even though we (Sulla and I) could simply
have added them to the fifth class, we didn't.
New citizens were added so that the proportion of centuries in each class
would be as stipulated in the LEX VEDIA CENTURIATA,
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
A. Class I shall have 55 centuries;
B. Class II shall have 47 centuries;
C. Class III shall have 39 centuries;
D. Class IV shall have 30 centuries;
E. Class V shall have 22 centuries.
Even though this was overturned by the Lex Iunia Centuriata!
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191003.html
"This law "Lex Iunia Centuriata" replaces paragraph I of the law "Lex Vedia
Centuriata". The passage of the former leaves the remainder of the latter
valid. Whenever a consul or praetor convenes the comitia centuriata, the
censores are to issue an edict specifying how many centuries are to be
allocated to the classes. By all such edicts, the centuries will be
allocated to five classes such that Class I will have the greatest number of
centuries, and Class V the least."
Which gives the Censores, in my opinion, too broad discretion in
apportioning the centuries to the classes.
************************************************
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaAnnounce/message/31
From: "Lucius Equitius" <--------3hw7@-------->
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:20 pm
Subject: Edictum Centuriata Sextilius
Ex Domo Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
In accordance with Lex Iunia Centuriata,
here are the classes, citizens in class, and average citizens in each
century:
-- I -- 78 / 1.42
-- II -- 122 / 2.60
-- III -- 272 / 6.97
-- IV -- 292 / 9.73
-- V -- 220 / 10.00
Bene omnibus nobis
**********************************
CINCINNATUS: The above proportions should be codified, but they will be
adhered to during my term as Censor by edictum in either case.
MAF: Yes, in Cicero's time (for example)
>SNIP<
MAF: Yes, Astur, you are correct. We have that other
unhistorical problem of having a gigantic patrician
population, proportionally speaking...
CINCINNATUS: Do tell us, please, what the ratio of Plebian to Patricians was
in the third year of the founding of Roma? I dare say it was not that
Patricians were "less the 1%" of the population of Rome.
> > Here all new citizens join the 5th class.
CINCINNATUS: This is incorrect. New citizens were added to the third through
the fifth class.
MAF: I join with Astur in praising Octavius for this very
welcome innovation.
CINCINNATUS: Senator Marcus Octavius Gemanicus has been one of the most
valuable resources in Nova Roma, and we could in no way have made anything
like the progress we have with out him.
He is also a fine human being and I support him fully.
>>We clearly have an oligarchic micro-nation, much more
>>oligarchic that Rome was.
>>Manius Villius Limitanus
MAF: Yes, we do. I hope it is a stage that we shall
outgrow. Perhaps Sulla was trying to urge us to say
"aristocratic" rather than "oligarchic"? To my democratic
ears that sounds about the same, but if enough members of
the oligarchy would prefer to be called "aristocrats" maybe
we should agree, since I am not interested in insulting
people with words, but in identifying a socio-political
problem that we have. Solving that matter does not involve
aristocratic heads rolling from the guillotine, but just an
adaptation of traditional Roman laws to open up major
positions every year on a wider scale to people who have
never held them before - as was the case in Roma Antiqua.
Valete!
CINCINNATUS: How about the passage of a *little* time. Roma wasn't built in
a day, you know. In fact ancient Roma still had a KING in it's third year
and he stayed in power for a few years after that, as well.
Not that I'm overly fond of the 'late' Republic/Imperial period, but
Augustus was wise in many of the things he did and said, like "Festina
Lente", hurry slowly.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: "Mock Trial" Iudices needed. |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:13:15 -0400 |
|
Salvete cives et amici,
I too would be delighted to serve as an Iudices.
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 03:07:49 EDT |
|
In a message dated 8/28/01 7:41:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
loos@-------- writes:
Salvete Romanoi
Limitius: We definitely have no aristocracy,
>
>
Hmm I disagree with this statement. The better, the ones who have put time,
effort, research and their own money into this reconstruction, do govern.
> he real meaning is "government of the few/rare" I fail to see what
> is
> insulting in this. I understand why our ploutocrats "the few that govern"
> would like to be called aristocrats "the better that govern", but on one
> side
> I don t conder most of them as aristoi, and this is definitively insulting
> for most republicans (european sense of the word).
>
I certainly believe the current Senate as a whole are better, fair and much
more open minded then someone like Manius Villius Limitanus.
Quirites (using the old term that predates Rome) I ask you, why are you here?
If it is to experience and learn things Roman, then do so. We offer a
fantastic opertunity, as you dedicate yourself to working for Rome, you grow
in wealth and knowledge. If you are here to tear us down, be aware you will
not be here for long.
If you recall Nova Roma is III years old. Where was Roma Antiquita when it
was III years old? Under a King. Are we under a King? Do you Quirites have
some say in your government? Yes. Did the Sabines, and Latins and those of
Alba Longa? Not really.
This worrysome Patrician unbalance will even out. It did in ancient Rome.
Once wealth, in our case, experience, allows it, the Plebians will become
more powerful. Funny but Polybios predicted the rise of the Plebs 104 years
before it happened.
About the offices. By the fourth year, I see happening what happened in
Rome, an inexperienced magistrate in tandem with an experienced one. Why
were the Familias of several important Gentes elected as Consules over and
over again? Because they were the most qualified. So it is here.
My namesake was Consul 3 times, Dictator once. He saved Rome from the
Carthaginians. Would we even have a Rome today if the Rome's Socii - Latins,
Etruscans, Umbrians, Campanians and Oscans had abandoned her in that time of
troubles? No. They stuck. Why do you think that happened?
I would say no matter how troublesome Rome might be to the Socii, the
alternative was worse. They stuck because they saw potential in Rome. I
suspect you all see the same.
Virgil once said: "So vast a toil it was to found the State of Rome."
This has come down to us as "Rome was not built in a day."
Recall this when you clamor for instant change.
"Tantae molis erat Romanam condere gentem."
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL |
| From: |
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:09:41 EDT |
|
Salvete!
I, Quintius Fabius Maximus, Proconsul of CAL province appoint citizen
Pompeia Antonia Caesaria as my scriba. Done this day a.d. V Kal Sept.
2755 AUC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:54:27 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- loos@-------- wrote:
SNIP
>
> We clearly have an oligarchic micro-nation, much
> more oligarchic that
> Rome was.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
Salvete,
Lets have a closer look at this.
In Antiquita The Plebian assembly passed the majority
of the "laws". Over 99% of the citizens were allowed
to vote in the Plebian assembly, so on the surface it
seems farily Democratic. Lets NOT lose sight of one
thing. The Tribal assignments. New Citizens were
assigned to one of the four Urban tribes (Unless they
lived far enough from Rome that there was little
likelyhood of them voting) The vast majority of the
citizens who lived in Rome were enrolled in an Urban
Tribe. 4 votes out of 35. Female Citizens couldn't
vote. The thousands of slaves in Roma couldn't vote.
We assign ALL new citizens to a Rural tribe, and they
remain in a Rural tribe as long as they vote in the
December elections and pay your taxes. We allow Women
to vote. We have no slaves.
I Think there is little doubt that our tribal
assemblies are far more Democratic (Ancient usage)
than the Tribal assemblies of Antiquita ever were.
So how about the Classes? In Antiquita the class
structure resembled a pyramid. The higher classes were
far smaller than the lower classes. Largest of all was
the Capti Censi.
Our classes are required to be the same size after the
Centuries are redrawn. This only has to be done once a
year, but thanks to efforts of Marcus Octavius we
shall be able to do this whenever it's required.
(Thank you Marcus Octavius)
We do assign all our new citizens to the lower
classes, while in antiquita a freedman MIGHT be
wealthy enough to be assigned to the first class,
don't forget one very important point about this
freedman. He would be the client of his even wealther
former master, and would vote as instructed. He had no
control over who he voted for.
It is also far easier for a citizen to rise in our
classes than it ever was for the average citizen to
rise in Antiquita. The majority were born in the Capti
Censi, lived it that non-class all their life, and
only left it when they died.
Our centuries are also far more Democratic than they
ever were in Antiquita.
Now look at our magistrates. In Antiquita you had to
spend vast ammounts of your personal wealth to get
elected. Only Men could become Magistrates. Here you
have to pay a nominal tax to be eligible for Office,
and Women can stand for Office. Some offices DO
require outlays that some civies can't afford, but we
certainly don't have as high a bar as Antiquita, where
only the VERY wealthy could afford to hold office.
Our offices are open to a far higher percentage of our
citizens than the same offices were in Antiquita.
Again Nova Roma is far more Democratic than Antiquita
ever was.
In Antiquita you had to have a Census Worth of a
Million Sesterces to be ELIGIBLE for the Senate, and
had to be male. Is our Senate Composed of Millionaire
men?
Even our Senate is more Democratic that the Senate of
Antiquita.
So are we "more oligarchic that Rome was"?
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Analysis of NR (II) |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:33:18 +0200 |
|
Salvete Quirites,
A few months ago, I posted an email to this list, in which I tried to
analyze the problem of activity here in NR, which many complain about, and
the subsequent forming of a "government by the few", partially as a result
of the population's political passivity. Anyway, I'm not here today to talk
about this snake that is eating itself, but something different.
In fact, I think that we can't really complain about NR's system - in
theory. A breakdown of the different aspects:
(1) DEMOCRATIC ASPECT: In fact, democracy in NR is much more direct than in
many other countries. Letting the whole population vote on leges, and having
elections each year are very democratic things to do, and surpass the way
things are in many macronations. However, there is the problem of patricians
and plebeians. Personally, I see two possible solutions:
a) Let the patricians vote in the Comitia Plebis but take
away their extra century points.
b) Drastically reduce the number of patricians.
I think the first option of the two would be the best to do, although latter
option is more Roman in practice and origin.
(2) OLIGARCHIC ASPECT: I think the idea of calling the Senatores
"aristocrats" is rediculous. They are not "the best", and none of them is,
to my recollection, of a noble descent. Whatever offence American citizens
take at this word, I do not find it offensive, and I honestly can't think of
a better definition. Even plutocracy (government of the rich) is not
suitable. The Senate has a large influence here in NR, and I recall that one
of my first discussions in Nova Roma was about this very problem. I said
that this situation would lead to conservatism and corruption, because our
Senatores are appointed to this body for life, unless they invoke the wrath
of their colleagues of course. In many countries, there is an oligarchical
aspect (a board of ministers or something), and I have no problem with this.
But I do have a problem with Senatores appointed for life. They will never
invite their enemies, fit as they may be for that office, into the Senate,
and thus it will grow into a bastion of conservatism.
The only light at the end of the tunnel would be going for Praetor, Consul
or Censor, but given that most people of the old garde run for one of those
positions and get elected each year, it is hard to push your way inside the
Senate.
(3) MONARCHIC ASPECT: This exists in many civilized countries, too, under
the form of presidents, or constitutional kings and queens. So again, in
principle there is nothing wrong with this. The only problem here is that
the Consules are stonger than the Tribuni.
In conclusion, everything taken into account, I would like to repeat my
suggestion. Right now, we have over 1000 citizens. It seems very unlikely to
me that right now, no candidates would be found for any of the higher
offices other than the same old faces. So my suggestion is that these
people, who previously held the position of Praetor, Consul or Censor, not
run for office, to show their goodwill, and their willingness to leave NR in
the hands of fresh newcomers. They will be all the more respected for this
decision, because authority is usually not respected because of the power it
has - authority is directly derived from respect, and not the other way
around.
Valete bene!
S. Apollonius Draco
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Digest No1591 |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:33:22 -0400 |
|
Salvete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:26 PM
>
> In accordance with Lex Iunia Centuriata,
> here are the classes, citizens in class, and average citizens in each
> century:
> -- I -- 78 / 1.42
> -- II -- 122 / 2.60
> -- III -- 272 / 6.97
> -- IV -- 292 / 9.73
> -- V -- 220 / 10.00
>
> Bene omnibus nobis
> **********************************
>
> CINCINNATUS: The above proportions should be codified, but they will be
> adhered to during my term as Censor by edictum in either case.
Hmmm... that would give us (roughly):
Class I: 8% of the population
Class II: 12% of the population
Class III: 28% of the population
Class IV: 30% of the population
Class V: 22% of the population
Would it not make more sense that the higher classes would have the largest
percentage of the population, rather than peaking at class IV and going down
again in class V? I would be quite in favor of putting forth a lex that
stipulates better guidelines for the formation of the centuries. What would
your specific suggestion be?
Next year in the Forum!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II) |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:43:47 -0400 |
|
Salvete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:33 AM
>
> It seems very unlikely to
> me that right now, no candidates would be found for any of the higher
> offices other than the same old faces. So my suggestion is that these
> people, who previously held the position of Praetor, Consul or Censor, not
> run for office, to show their goodwill, and their willingness to leave NR
in
> the hands of fresh newcomers. They will be all the more respected for this
> decision, because authority is usually not respected because of the power
it
> has - authority is directly derived from respect, and not the other way
> around.
I thought everybody already knew where I stood on this. I have no intention
of running for office next year. My decision is based on my own particular
situation, however; I see no problem with experienced people running for
higher office, and don't think we should bring in new people simply for the
sake of doing so.
Until we have a much larger stable of capable and experienced candidates, we
will simply have to suffer along with the same old capable and experienced
magistrates. While I do think that our stable of such people is growing
quite nicely, and fully expect to see many new faces in the elections this
year, we must be patient in such matters. I for one don't want a Consul who
doesn't have the experience in Nova Roma necessary to do the job.
Next year in the Forum!
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Digest No1591 |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:11:48 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Flavi Vedi,
> Hmmm... that would give us (roughly):
>
> Class I: 8% of the population
> Class II: 12% of the population
> Class III: 28% of the population
> Class IV: 30% of the population
> Class V: 22% of the population
>
> Would it not make more sense that the higher classes would have the largest
> percentage of the population, rather than peaking at class IV and going down
> again in class V? I would be quite in favor of putting forth a lex that
> stipulates better guidelines for the formation of the centuries. What would
> your specific suggestion be?
The unbalanced numbers above exist only because we have gone so long
without a reallocation. Once all the points are entered (three scribes
are working on this right now), reallocation can be quick and frequent.
The Lex Vedia Centuriata states:
> E. Citizens within each class shall be divided as evenly as
> possible among the centuries in that class.
Then, the citizens will be divided evenly into classes. Assume there
will be 1000 citizens of voting age; this gives us 200 per class. If
the old allotment of centuries per class remains constant:
Class I : 200 cvs / 55 cent = 3.63 cvs/cent
Class II : 200 cvs / 47 cent = 4.25 cvs/cent
Class III: 200 cvs / 39 cent = 5.12 cvs/cent
Class IV : 200 cvs / 30 cent = 6.66 cvs/cent
Class V : 200 cvs / 22 cent = 9.09 cvs/cent
Of course, this will change again once the deadline for taxes has
passed, and century 193 suddenly becomes the most populous by far.
Vale, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
"Lucius Equtius Cincinnatus" <vze23hw7@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:06:21 -0000 |
|
Salvete,
I'm sorry that this wasn't as clear to everyone as it was to me.
I was refering to the proportions of centuries in each class.
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
A. Class I shall have 55 centuries;
B. Class II shall have 47 centuries;
C. Class III shall have 39 centuries;
D. Class IV shall have 30 centuries;
E. Class V shall have 22 centuries.
This was overturned by the Lex Iunia Centuriata, or rather replaced
by the clause, "By all such edicts, the centuries will be
allocated to five classes such that Class I will have the greatest
number of centuries, and Class V the least." Which allows the
Censores to have something like the following, **for example**:
Class I, 90 centuries;
Class II, 50 centuries;
Class III, 40 centuries;
Class IV,10 centuries;
Class V, 3 centuries.
etc.
The Censores have chosen to stay with the example in the origanal Lex
Vedia Centuriata, which is more balenced than what the Romans used in
the "Servian" Assembly, and what is now possible under current law.
Valete, Censor L Equitius Cincinnatus
> > Bene omnibus nobis
> > **********************************
> >
> > CINCINNATUS: The above proportions should be codified, but they
will be
> > adhered to during my term as Censor by edictum in either case.
>
> Hmmm... that would give us (roughly):
>
> Class I: 8% of the population
> Class II: 12% of the population
> Class III: 28% of the population
> Class IV: 30% of the population
> Class V: 22% of the population
>
> Would it not make more sense that the higher classes would have the
largest
> percentage of the population, rather than peaking at class IV and
going down
> again in class V? I would be quite in favor of putting forth a lex
that
> stipulates better guidelines for the formation of the centuries.
What would
> your specific suggestion be?
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:53:05 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve,
> The Censores have chosen to stay with the example in the origanal Lex
> Vedia Centuriata, which is more balenced than what the Romans used in
> the "Servian" Assembly, and what is now possible under current law.
I've recently begun to notice an unanticipated problem with the
century allocations. Active citizens will be placed in the first
or second class, for the most part. Inactive or new citizens will
be placed in the later three classes.
An unanticipated effect of this is that active citizens will share
their centuries with other active citizens who are likely to vote;
inactive citizens will share their centuries with inactive citizens
who probably won't vote. Thus, placement in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th
centuries may have as much weight - or more - as placement in the
first or second.
Consider this hypothetical distribution:
Century #1 - F. Vedius, L. Equitius, M. Cassius
Century #192 - six inactive citizens who have no century points
for anything other than the date they joined.
In century #1, all three citizens will certainly vote. Thus, each of
their votes counts for one-third of a century.
In century #192, let us assume that an inactive citizen has a one in
three chance of voting. Two of these citizens vote; each of their
votes counts for half a century.
Thus, each of those inactive citizens in Class V has potentially more
voting power than a very active citizen in Class I -- this is exactly
the opposite of what the century system was intended to do.
Strange as it may seem, the centuries-in-class division may not be
"top-heavy" enough.
Vale, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:17:46 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete,
Here are some statistics for the December election, based upon a
database dump done shortly after (but before any new citizens had
been placed in centuries).
Class Cents. Cives Votes Voting%
I 55 75 42 56%
II 47 124 21 16%
III 39 155 30 19%
IV 30 84 26 30%
V 22 162 60 37%
The lowest turnout was in the Second class; only 16%. I suspect that
this class was composed mainly of people who joined in late 1998 or
early 1999, and have since become inactive. Those who joined early
and were active in public life were entirely in the first class.
The Fifth class had a high voter turnout; probably because it was
mainly persons who had joined that year, and still had their initial
high level of interest.
Those numbers suggest that the voting strength of the second and
third classes should be decreased, and the first and fifth classes'
strength should increase.
After the century points are reallocated, they may suggest a different
division. When changing the size of the classes, the Censors should
consider which classes contain people whose only points are for
longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
Valete, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:31:26 US/Central |
|
Salvete
> ...classes contain people whose only points are for
> longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
> vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
Essentially, this implies an argument to either remove or severely limit the
number of points given for longevity.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Here I go again |
| From: |
Kristoffer From <from@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:36:19 +0200 |
|
Salvete, quirites.
A topic which I've seen discussed quite a lot recently, is the
unhistorical percentage of patrician cives. In Roma Antiqua, 99 percent
of the citizens were plebeian. Here, in Nova Roma, the corresponding
figure is 70 percent. This makes several historical institutions, such
as the tribunate, lose at least some of their meaning as instruments of
democracy. Keeping the 30 percent of our population that is currently of
patrician heritage out of elections, concerning the destiny of our
entire nation, is in direct opposition to the original intention of the
comitia plebis and the tribunate. This is a problem, and I hereby
propose a very ill-advised solution.
We have a lot of patricians, and are steadily gaining more. To decrease
this percentage, we can take one of two general approaches:
1. Remove the patrician status from inactive/new/willing patrician
cives.
2. Prevent "fresh blood" from steadily flowing into the patrician
gentes.
Both of the above statements are, intentionally, worded in rather
negative terms. This is because I'd rather see we didn't have to take
either approach, but could just let the problem "solve itself", somehow.
But, as I said, I here intend to discuss one solution, and I've chosen
the second method, since it will have no impact on our current citizens,
and may even give us a stronger connection with Roma Antiqua.
It's really a rather simple idea; Don't allow any new citizens to enter
patrician gentes, except for children of patrician cives. The only way
to "become" a patrician, is through the historical approach of adoption,
and this only after a certain time, perhaps half a year, as an active
plebei, and (of course) with the approval of both involved paterfamilii.
This would, I believe, slow down the increase of the patrician gentes,
in favor of the plebeii, thus allowing us to better control the ratio of
patricians versus plebeis.
Also, on a slightly different topic, how about allowing plebeian
factions of patrician gentes? Such as, to use my own gens as example,
creating a plebeian "arm" of gens Octavia, with a plebeian
paterfamilias? Of course the original paterfamilias, in this case Marcus
Octavius Germanicus, would have to approve of the creation of this
gens-within-a-gens, but once it's there, it's an official gens in it's
own right. Just a quick thought, not REALLY having anything to do with
the main subject of this post.
As always, this isn't an attack, even indirectly, and I beg anyone, who
takes any offense, for forgiveness. I am not a native english speaker,
so I may use some word with nuances I do not intend. Please find it in
your heart to forgive this, and just let me know what I've done wrong,
so I can avoid making the same mistakes over and over again. Practise
makes perfect! :)
Valete,
Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum
AKA Kristoffer From
---
Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.
- Not-so-famous quotation
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Armistice/Deadhorse |
| From: |
"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:34:20 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I don't enjoy the stench of dead horse flesh, so, I'll try to steer away from it. However, I will take this opportunity to suggest that this issue and ones like it keep coming up because we do not have clearly defined civil rights. (I realize the Constitution speaks against discrimination, but it is addressed pertaining to the state. We have not enumerated the rights of individuals.) I'm not a member of the minority in question, but I am a member of more than one minority group. This is why this "dead horse" issue is so important to me/us, IMHO.
Therefore, I once again invite anyone interested in developing a list of civil rights that to join NRCR@-------- This Nova Roma Civil Rights list is a place to determine which rights are important to us. If we determine which rights are essential to all we won't have to worry about the rights of any specific group, it will be covered. Let's have the same rights for all, not specific laws to deal with specific cases!
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, Fortunate.
--- Fortunatus <labienus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > Just for curiosity's sake. Was there opposition to that proposal
> when
> > it was first presented to the Comitia?
>
>
> I certainly don't remember any. Assuming my memory is serving me
> well,
> it passed unanimously among those centuries that contained voters.
> We
> (Nova Roma as a whole) just didn't think it through as well as we
> ought
> to have.
It sounds strange, though.
> >>As an aside, those irregularities did not make any difference in
> the
> >>outcome of that vote. We checked.
> >
> > Which irregularities, if I may ask?
>
>
> The number of centuries assigned to each class by the censores did
> not
> match the numbers given in Lex Vedia Centuriata. At the time, there
> were one-person centuriae into the fourth class, so it really didn't
> make a difference. C Marius felt that having a flexible schedule of
> centuriae per class would be a way to ensure that the situation
> didn't
> occur again. We really should have realized what we were doing, but
> errare humanum est.
I see. It was a difficult situation. I guess I would have suggested to
annulate the results and repeat the votation again, and I would have
asked political responsability from the censores (as our last votation
has also had some "irregularities", I guess the chosen solution was not
even good at avoiding that ;-) ).
> > Then, why has Octavius Germanicus stated, on his previous message,
> that
> > the issue was about the lack of time to discuss the proposals?
>
>
> He would be best able to answer that question. If pressed, I would
> guess that it is because he feels that that was the most important
> issue. Both complaints, and others, were raised at the time.
I understand. Just a matter of emphasis.
> > Thank you, Tribune. You have been very helpful.
>
>
> You're quite welcome.
And thank you again :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oligarchy/Mixed System/Centuries |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:42:12 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, Octavi.
--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Fortunatus wrote:
> Salve,
>
> > > Then, why has Octavius Germanicus stated, on his previous
> message, that
> > > the issue was about the lack of time to discuss the proposals?
> >
> > He would be best able to answer that question. If pressed, I would
>
> > guess that it is because he feels that that was the most important
> > issue. Both complaints, and others, were raised at the time.
>
> Exactly. There were multiple issues - the lack of time to properly
> debate the laws; the fact that most of them were completely
> unexpected
> and had never been discussed at all; the unfairness of patricians
> being
> unable to vote on laws that affect all of us; and, of course,
> lingering
> distrust left over from the heated elections of December.
I understand. Thank you, propraetor.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Relative strength of classes and centuries |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:41:05 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Tite Labiene,
(I've changed the subject line to something more appropriate than "Digest")
> > ...classes contain people whose only points are for
> > longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
> > vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
>
> Essentially, this implies an argument to either remove or severely limit the
> number of points given for longevity.
I agree. If we cut the point values for longevity to a third or a quarter
of their present values, that could neatly solve the problem of the
2nd and 3rd centuries being filled with inactive citizens.
Vale, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:48:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Here are some statistics for the December election,
> based upon a
> database dump done shortly after (but before any new
> citizens had
> been placed in centuries).
>
> Class Cents. Cives Votes Voting%
> I 55 75 42 56%
> II 47 124 21 16%
> III 39 155 30 19%
> IV 30 84 26 30%
> V 22 162 60 37%
>
> The lowest turnout was in the Second class; only
> 16%. I suspect that
> this class was composed mainly of people who joined
> in late 1998 or
> early 1999, and have since become inactive. Those
> who joined early
> and were active in public life were entirely in the
> first class.
>
Since we have over 1000 civies now each class will
have over 200 civies. The first and second classes
from last December add up to 199 civies so it is very
likely that ALL of the old Second class, the group
with the lowest turnout will be in the first class
this December, along with some civies from Last years
third Class. The Remaninder of the old Third Class
will be in the New Second Class. This will mainly be
due to longitivity Points that inactive civies
continue to amass. I think it's likely that the frist
and second classes will have the lowest turnout this
year.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:50:42 -0400 |
|
Salvete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: labienus@-------- [mailto:labienus@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 7:31 AM
>
> > ...classes contain people whose only points are for
> > longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
> > vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
>
> Essentially, this implies an argument to either remove or
> severely limit the
> number of points given for longevity.
I would tend to agree. A mere failure to inform the Censors of your intent
to resign isn't something that should be rewarded...
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1590 |
| From: |
"william wheeler" <holyconelia@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:58:15 +0000 |
|
Salve to the Apollonia Tiberius
look below at letter for what i am replying to:
I Marcus Cornelius Felix am GAY and I am a Cornelia have been for over 2
years Sulla knows has known from the start , I hold a post of Honnor
in the Gens ( look at my titles at end of post). Sulla is not a homophobic
anything he has a lot of Gay friends.
take that back , or i will say Blood war on you and yours ....
IE no Apollonia will ever get my vote on the CP for any priesthood
( yes i am a pontitff and yes i get to vote on who gets a priesthood in NR)
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Pontitff
Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:59:53 +0200
From: "Tiberius 'Sokarus' Apollonius Callias" <hadescallias@-------->
Subject: Fw: Re: Are we at it again? Yes indeed.
Salvete
Who said Sulla had won.I have been called a lot of things but never a
spoiled
child before so who ever wrote this, hear me out, and this goes out also for
the
one who wrote that i wasn't completely honoust. What Sulla forgot to
mentioned
wich played in his favour, but nobody mentioned, is the fact that when i
first
received the lettre i complied to it and said that i will change my name
wich i
put out of the mailing list of the gens. When i found out that many others
are
using invalid roman names, than i start to protest not at the beginning and
i
think that it should be know that i don't hate the republic or the Senate,
just
Sulla. He is a backstabbing, homophobic Senator and censor who claims all
good
things but dislikes them in private. He has a two faces(janusface): one that
is
shown to the public and another that is shown in private.
Valete
Tiberius Apollonius Callias
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Pontitff
Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest No1591 |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, censor Equiti.
--- Lucius Equitius <vze23hw7@--------> wrote:
<<snipped>>
> Anyway, it is true that an abnormal (and antihistorical)
> level of reelection does occur.
>
> CINCINNATUS: It is my 'opinion' that, more than Formosanus'
> assertion, for
> the number of "abnormal (and antihistorical) level of reelection(s)"
> the
> real reasons are that there are few interested candidates and there
> are, as
> yet, too few citizens to expect that there will be a complete
> turnover when
> we have elections *each year*. What other nation holds major
> elections every
> year for every position?
I have to say that that affirmation was not wrote by Formosanus; I
wrote it on a previous post. Formosanus was just quoting it.
> I think that at the end of the first year there were barely 100
> citizens.
> The beginning of this year there were ~600. Until the last election
> we never
> had enought candidates to fill all the open positions, let alone have
> them
> all contested! So, is it really a surprize that those of us who are
> truly
> commited to see Nova Roma succeed have taken up the standard?
Perhaps these provisions will have to be changed in the future, now
that we are over 1,000 citizens.
> Now, in the case of the last vote. The new citizens were added to the
> centuries according to law, AND even though we (Sulla and I) could
> simply
> have added them to the fifth class, we didn't.
> New citizens were added so that the proportion of centuries in each
> class
> would be as stipulated in the LEX VEDIA CENTURIATA,
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
> A. Class I shall have 55 centuries;
> B. Class II shall have 47 centuries;
> C. Class III shall have 39 centuries;
> D. Class IV shall have 30 centuries;
> E. Class V shall have 22 centuries.
>
> Even though this was overturned by the Lex Iunia Centuriata!
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191003.html
<<snipped>>
> Which gives the Censores, in my opinion, too broad discretion in
> apportioning the centuries to the classes.
I agree on this statement.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Armistice/Deadhorse |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:03:12 US/Central |
|
Salve Luci Maurici et salvete omnes
> Therefore, I once again invite anyone interested in developing a list of
> civil rights that to join NRCR@--------
I am currently a member of over twenty lists that have to do with Nova Roma and
roughly a dozen others that don't. Would it be acceptable to you to start such
a discussion on either the Sodalitas Virtutis list, where we could consider how
best to create a virtuous state, or the NovaRomaLaws list, where we could get
into what we modern Romans consider to fall under the Ius Gentium, and what we
feel we need to codify as part of our Ius Civile?
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] blood war |
| From: |
"william wheeler" <holyconelia@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:21:43 +0000 |
|
Salve
someone asked me if i was thinking that
Do you feel that the Apollonii have
insulted the Gods by attacking Their (The Gods') elected magistrates,
to that i say YES i do so ....
vale
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Pontitff
Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] blood war |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:52:13 US/Central |
|
Salvete Marce Corneli et alii
I really should just let this one go by, but I can't.
> someone asked me if i was thinking that
> Do you feel that the Apollonii have
> insulted the Gods by attacking Their (The Gods') elected magistrates,
>
> to that i say YES i do so ....
This is utter rubbish. While Fortune always has a hand in an election, it is
the people who elect magistrates, not the Gods. To claim that there is some
kind of medieval Christian divine right given to our elected magistrates, or
that such a thing was believed by the ancients, is flat-out wrong. The Gods
were assumed to have spoken in the outcome of elections, but it was never seen
as blasphemous to verbally assault the winners of those elections.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Here I go again |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:28:16 -0700 |
|
Ave,
This issue has been discussed many many times on the Vedian Baths list.
The problem is with the huge number of Plebian Gentes who have been
CLOSED. Why have they been closed? Well thats for a variety of
reasons. But sufficit to say that we would have had about 200+ more
Plebian citizens if they (the Plebian Paters/Maters) would have taken
time to actually respond to Censor emails.
This is not a problem for most Patrician Paterfamilias's because we
respond and are active. So what you are proposing is to punish
Patrician Paterfamilias because we are active and I do not support that.
Now, this is just a simplified explanation. I went into greater detail
on the Vedian Baths list. If you would like to see the whole thread,
please feel free to sign up.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
Kristoffer From wrote:
>
> Salvete, quirites.
>
> A topic which I've seen discussed quite a lot recently, is the
> unhistorical percentage of patrician cives. In Roma Antiqua, 99
> percent
> of the citizens were plebeian. Here, in Nova Roma, the corresponding
> figure is 70 percent. This makes several historical institutions, such
> as the tribunate, lose at least some of their meaning as instruments
> of
> democracy. Keeping the 30 percent of our population that is currently
> of
> patrician heritage out of elections, concerning the destiny of our
> entire nation, is in direct opposition to the original intention of
> the
> comitia plebis and the tribunate. This is a problem, and I hereby
> propose a very ill-advised solution.
>
> We have a lot of patricians, and are steadily gaining more. To
> decrease
> this percentage, we can take one of two general approaches:
>
> 1. Remove the patrician status from inactive/new/willing patrician
> cives.
>
> 2. Prevent "fresh blood" from steadily flowing into the patrician
> gentes.
>
> Both of the above statements are, intentionally, worded in rather
> negative terms. This is because I'd rather see we didn't have to take
> either approach, but could just let the problem "solve itself",
> somehow.
> But, as I said, I here intend to discuss one solution, and I've chosen
> the second method, since it will have no impact on our current
> citizens,
> and may even give us a stronger connection with Roma Antiqua.
>
> It's really a rather simple idea; Don't allow any new citizens to
> enter
> patrician gentes, except for children of patrician cives. The only way
> to "become" a patrician, is through the historical approach of
> adoption,
> and this only after a certain time, perhaps half a year, as an active
> plebei, and (of course) with the approval of both involved
> paterfamilii.
>
> This would, I believe, slow down the increase of the patrician gentes,
> in favor of the plebeii, thus allowing us to better control the ratio
> of
> patricians versus plebeis.
>
> Also, on a slightly different topic, how about allowing plebeian
> factions of patrician gentes? Such as, to use my own gens as example,
> creating a plebeian "arm" of gens Octavia, with a plebeian
> paterfamilias? Of course the original paterfamilias, in this case
> Marcus
> Octavius Germanicus, would have to approve of the creation of this
> gens-within-a-gens, but once it's there, it's an official gens in it's
> own right. Just a quick thought, not REALLY having anything to do with
> the main subject of this post.
>
> As always, this isn't an attack, even indirectly, and I beg anyone,
> who
> takes any offense, for forgiveness. I am not a native english speaker,
> so I may use some word with nuances I do not intend. Please find it in
> your heart to forgive this, and just let me know what I've done wrong,
> so I can avoid making the same mistakes over and over again. Practise
> makes perfect! :)
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Senior Legatus Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
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|
| Subject: |
Re: Fw: [novaroma] Re: Are we at it again? Yes indeed. |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:43:54 -0700 |
|
Ave,
I think it has been shown to you conclusively that your opinion of me,
as a backstabbing, homophobic senator has been inaccurate. If you would
apologize, I would be pleased to forget this entire unfortunate
situation.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Tiberius 'Sokarus' Apollonius Callias wrote:
>
> Salvete
> Who said Sulla had won.I have been called a lot of things but never a
> spoiled child before so who ever wrote this, hear me out, and this
> goes out also for the one who wrote that i wasn't completely honoust.
> What Sulla forgot to mentioned wich played in his favour, but nobody
> mentioned, is the fact that when i first received the lettre i
> complied to it and said that i will change my name wich i put out of
> the mailing list of the gens. When i found out that many others are
> using invalid roman names, than i start to protest not at the
> beginning and i think that it should be know that i don't hate the
> republic or the Senate, just Sulla. He is a backstabbing, homophobic
> Senator and censor who claims all good things but dislikes them in
> private. He has a two faces(janusface): one that is shown to the
> public and another that is shown in private.
> Valete
> Tiberius Apollonius Callias
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office (was Edictum Propraetoricium XXIV about the Appointment of a new Triumvir Academia Novae Romae in Thule.) |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:46:12 +0200 |
|
Salve Gnaeo, et congratulations for your new position
Vale optime, Fortuna Deorum tibiscumque
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Cc: <ThuleNovaRoma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:09 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Oath of Office (was Edictum Propraetoricium XXIV about
the Appointment of a new Triumvir Academia Novae Romae in Thule.)
> I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) do hereby solemnly swear to
> uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
> of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez)
> swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
> and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to uphold and defend the
> Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
> act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to protect and defend the
> Constitution of Nova Roma.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) further swear to fulfill the
> obligations and responsibilities of the office of Triumvir Novae Romae
> Academiae in Thule to the best of my abilities.
>
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
> and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
> accept the position of Triumvir Novae Romae Academiae in Thule and all
> the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
> thereto.
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
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>
>
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
"Itzeel Reyes Hernandez" <itzeel@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:56:59 +0100 |
|
Salvete,
Your statistic are interesting... but, don't think about why are a lot of
civilians which have a little participation in NOVA ROMA.
I have 2 friends mexicans who work with me, we talk much about all the
mails, BUT... when we write for the group... we don?t have any response.
I?ts unfear make statistics without analize >WHY is this "fenomeno" in the
group (i love that word it?s like in greek). There are many causes. In the
early ROMA, with the GREEK influence... the discutions was limited because
everybody have the same background. To put a law for discution without any
background...it?s a wase of time... bla, bla, bla, bla-...
is not the essential.
BUT the statistics are interesting like an abstact idea... with certain
problems... how to join the abstract ideas whit the "facto".... it?s nos a
matter of statistics.
Valete, Galia Claudia
-----Mensaje original-----
De: Marcus Octavius Germanicus [mailto:haase@--------]
Enviado el: Miercoles 29 de Agosto de 2001 5:18 PM
Para: novaroma@--------
Asunto: Re: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591
Salvete,
Here are some statistics for the December election, based upon a
database dump done shortly after (but before any new citizens had
been placed in centuries).
Class Cents. Cives Votes Voting%
I 55 75 42 56%
II 47 124 21 16%
III 39 155 30 19%
IV 30 84 26 30%
V 22 162 60 37%
The lowest turnout was in the Second class; only 16%. I suspect that
this class was composed mainly of people who joined in late 1998 or
early 1999, and have since become inactive. Those who joined early
and were active in public life were entirely in the first class.
The Fifth class had a high voter turnout; probably because it was
mainly persons who had joined that year, and still had their initial
high level of interest.
Those numbers suggest that the voting strength of the second and
third classes should be decreased, and the first and fifth classes'
strength should increase.
After the century points are reallocated, they may suggest a different
division. When changing the size of the classes, the Censors should
consider which classes contain people whose only points are for
longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
Valete, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II) |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:13:56 -0700 (PDT) |
|
<P>
<P> <B><I>"S. Apollonius Draco"
<hendrik.meuleman@--------></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<P><TT>Salvete Quirites,<BR>Draco:<BR><BR>(2)
OLIGARCHIC ASPECT: I think the idea of calling the
Senatores<BR>"aristocrats" is rediculous. They are not
"the best", and none of them is,<BR>to my
recollection, of a noble descent.</TT></P>
<P><TT>Maximina: IMHO, Nobility is in the actions and
the hearts of those who do service to Nova Roma.
</TT></P>
<P><TT>I see no merit or nobility in those who are
constantly being critical and trying to tear it down
especially in it's infancy. Isn't it better
to present reasonable solutions instead of being the
problem?</TT></P>
<P><TT>Draco:</TT></P>
<P><TT>But I do have a problem with Senatores
appointed for life. They will never<BR>invite their
enemies, fit as they may be for that office, into the
Senate,<BR>and thus it will grow into a bastion of
conservatism.<BR>The only light at the end of the
tunnel would be going for Praetor, Consul<BR>or
Censor, but given that most people of the old garde
run for one of those<BR>positions and get elected each
year, it is hard to push your way inside
the<BR>Senate.</TT></P>
<P><TT>Maximina:</TT></P>
<P><TT>Perhaps if those who are critical were to offer
viable solutions to what *they* think are problems,
they may be elected. Do you really think the
citizens want to elect someone who is
counter-productive and prone to dramatic
overstatement? The people who are serving are
elected (elected=chosen). They are chosen, why?
Answer: because they are the best! If the people
thought someone else was the best, they would *choose*
that candidate.</TT></P>
<P><TT>(My Definition of Best: Someone who is
qualified through experience and greater knowledge
concerning the positions that they are candidates
for. Someone who is honest and forthright
and does not have a tendency toward drama
and exaggeration. Someone who will do their utmost for
the citizens of NR. Someone willing to spend the
time and often their own money to build Nova Roma
up, not tear her down. Someone who will make
mistakes because they are human. Someone,
because of their humanity, I can relate to.
Someone who has demonstrated these qualities to
me.)</TT></P>
<P><TT>I do not always agree with some of the people
in our government and I have taken issue with them,
however, even though I disagree, I recognize that
this may be the *best* person in a given position not
the *perfect* person in a given position. In my
little experience with NR, I have found gentle
persuasion to further my cause is more effective than
bombastic and offensive language. </P></TT>
<P><TT>Draco:<BR>In conclusion, everything taken into
account, I would like to repeat my<BR>suggestion.
Right now, we have over 1000 citizens. It seems very
unlikely to<BR>me that right now, no candidates would
be found for any of the higher<BR>offices other than
the same old faces. So my suggestion is that
these<BR>people, who previously held the position of
Praetor, Consul or Censor, not<BR>run for office, to
show their goodwill, and their willingness to leave NR
in<BR>the hands of fresh newcomers. They will be all
the more respected for this<BR>decision, because
authority is usually not respected because of the
power it<BR>has - authority is directly derived from
respect, and not the other way<BR>around.</TT></P>
<P><TT>Maximina:</TT></P>
<P><TT>I am not sure what you mean by fresh
newcomers. How fresh? Speaking just for
myself, I would like someone with
experience. </TT></P>
<P><TT> If you were running a business, and I am
assuming that you do not, would you hire some *fresh*
newcomer to manage your business? Or would you want
someone who has experience in the type of business you
run and can contribute their skills to making your
business grow? (Example: I worked for GM who
hired many *fresh* newcomers (interns) straight out of
college and gave the "Golden Handshake" to many
longtime, experienced employees. This mistake
cost them a lot more money than they realized at the
time. Quality took a nosedive and they have
spent years trying to recover. Many businesses
have made this mistake.)</TT></P>
<P><TT></TT><TT>IMHO, most of the 1000+ members we
have do not have any interest in politics and even
less if they have visited this list and see how
elected officials are treated!</TT></P>
<P><TT>Please do not misunderstand, I read your posts
and if you are interested, I think you are honest and
intelligent. I truly believe you think you are
acting in the best interests of NR. I hope that
you are able to read my post in the spirit of
friendship and know that I too have the best interests
of NR at heart. </TT></P>
<P><TT>Vale, Maximina</TT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
|
| Subject: |
(Caesaria)Re: [novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:55:57 -0700 (PDT) |
|
<P> <STRONG><EM>Ave Pompeia,</EM></STRONG>
<P><STRONG><EM>Congratulations on your
appointment! You fill a very important position
and I am happy to see it filled by a woman.
</EM></STRONG>
<P><STRONG><EM>I know that you will always do your
best for Nova Roma. I am honored to say that I know
from personal association with you that you have the
highest moral character and kindest
heart.</EM></STRONG>
<P><STRONG><EM>We, at Nova Roma, are lucky to have
someone like you serve in California or anywhere for
that matter.</EM></STRONG>
<P><STRONG><EM>Best wishes and again
Congratulations!</EM></STRONG>
<P><STRONG><EM>Vale, Maximina Octavia</EM></STRONG>
<P>
<P> <B><I>QFabiusMaxmi@--------</I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
5px"><TT>Salvete!<BR>I, Quintius Fabius Maximus,
Proconsul of CAL province appoint citizen <BR>Pompeia
Antonia Caesaria as my scriba. Done this day
a.d. V Kal Sept.<BR>2755 AUC
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>[Non-text portions of
this message have been removed]<BR><BR></TT><BR><!--
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] oil lamps |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:36:59 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Ave L. Avisius Senca,
I forgot to mention that the lamps at the tripod site are only $7.00 each and made in accordance with the ancient method of a mold. Shipping is also reasonable. I paid $4 for both lamps to be shipped.
Good Luck, Vale, Maximina Octavia
scott dolleck <billgatesson@--------> wrote: Salvete Omnes.
I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
Does anyone know where in the US I can find "real"(replica)
functional roman oil lamps?
Valete.
Lucius Avisius Seneca
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
| Subject: |
(to: L. Seneca)Re: [novaroma] oil lamps and more |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Ave Lucius Avisius Seneca,
Here are a couple of links that are great for lamps.
The first link I believe is in Canada, I e-mailed the gentleman who makes the lamps and they are US$6.50 approximately for each lamp and shipping is reasonable. They are made with historical accuracy and are really beautiful.
The second link (Ancient Lamps) is really great as well. I have ordered two lamps from this fellow and they are absolutely beautiful. However, This fellow (Bryan) will not be firing any lamps for a few months due to a family emergency.
The lamps I purchased are not only beautiful but extremely functional. I use Safflower oil and it burns completely clean. There is no smoke and no odor. You can also use olive oil or any other vegetable oil for that matter.
For wicks, Bryan suggested cotton rope (from your builder warehouses) with the center strand (usually metal such as lead or zinc) removed. This is easy to do. I have even made my own wicks by braiding five strands of cotton string together (one wick I made from three strands and it burned for one and a half hours). The wick needs to be soaked in the oil that is contained in the lamp or a separate jar before burning. It is the oil that burns, the wick is just the vehicle.
I purchased the Carthage and Trier models. I use the Carthage most often because it is larger and consequently holds more oil. They are both great though.
http://www.chez.com/calelhs/lamps.htm
http://ancientlamps.tripod.com/
I will also be providing larariums and other items for the larariums at my website. The first will be completed soon and you will find a picture of it on my website at the Macellum:
http://www.caesar-a.cityslide.com
I wish you the best of luck and I am happy to help anytime. Please feel free to contact me with any requests or comments.
Vale, Maximina Octavia
P.S. You may also find Roman oil lamps at E-bay if you do not mind paying more, however, I doubt that you would want to use these. They are probably best keep in a glass case or safe place for viewing.
scott dolleck <billgatesson@--------> wrote: Salvete Omnes.
I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
Does anyone know where in the US I can find "real"(replica)
functional roman oil lamps?
Valete.
Lucius Avisius Seneca
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
| Subject: |
Re: (Caesaria)Re: [novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:57:24 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Can this be reposted without the HTML please? I would really like to
read it.
Vale,
Sulla
Maximina Octavia wrote:
>
> <P> <STRONG><EM>Ave Pompeia,</EM></STRONG>
> <P><STRONG><EM>Congratulations on your
> appointment! You fill a very important position
> and I am happy to see it filled by a woman.
> </EM></STRONG>
> <P><STRONG><EM>I know that you will always do your
> best for Nova Roma. I am honored to say that I know
> from personal association with you that you have the
> highest moral character and kindest
> heart.</EM></STRONG>
> <P><STRONG><EM>We, at Nova Roma, are lucky to have
> someone like you serve in California or anywhere for
> that matter.</EM></STRONG>
> <P><STRONG><EM>Best wishes and again
> Congratulations!</EM></STRONG>
> <P><STRONG><EM>Vale, Maximina Octavia</EM></STRONG>
> <P>
> <P> <B><I>QFabiusMaxmi@--------</I></B> wrote:
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
> 5px"><TT>Salvete!<BR>I, Quintius Fabius Maximus,
> Proconsul of CAL province appoint citizen <BR>Pompeia
> Antonia Caesaria as my scriba. Done this day
> a.d. V Kal Sept.<BR>2755 AUC
> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>[Non-text portions of
> this message have been removed]<BR><BR></TT><BR><!--
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| Subject: |
[Fwd: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II)] |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:57:52 -0700 |
|
Can this be reposted without the HTML. I would really like to read it.
Vale,
Sulla
Maximina Octavia wrote:
>
> <P>
> <P> <B><I>"S. Apollonius Draco"
> <hendrik.meuleman@--------></I></B> wrote:
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> <P><TT>Salvete Quirites,<BR>Draco:<BR><BR>(2)
> OLIGARCHIC ASPECT: I think the idea of calling the
> Senatores<BR>"aristocrats" is rediculous. They are not
> "the best", and none of them is,<BR>to my
> recollection, of a noble descent.</TT></P>
> <P><TT>Maximina: IMHO, Nobility is in the actions and
> the hearts of those who do service to Nova Roma.
> </TT></P>
> <P><TT>I see no merit or nobility in those who are
> constantly being critical and trying to tear it down
> especially in it's infancy. Isn't it better
> to present reasonable solutions instead of being the
> problem?</TT></P>
> <P><TT>Draco:</TT></P>
> <P><TT>But I do have a problem with Senatores
> appointed for life. They will never<BR>invite their
> enemies, fit as they may be for that office, into the
> Senate,<BR>and thus it will grow into a bastion of
> conservatism.<BR>The only light at the end of the
> tunnel would be going for Praetor, Consul<BR>or
> Censor, but given that most people of the old garde
> run for one of those<BR>positions and get elected each
> year, it is hard to push your way inside
> the<BR>Senate.</TT></P>
> <P><TT>Maximina:</TT></P>
> <P><TT>Perhaps if those who are critical were to offer
> viable solutions to what *they* think are problems,
> they may be elected. Do you really think the
> citizens want to elect someone who is
> counter-productive and prone to dramatic
> overstatement? The people who are serving are
> elected (elected=chosen). They are chosen, why?
> Answer: because they are the best! If the people
> thought someone else was the best, they would *choose*
> that candidate.</TT></P>
> <P><TT>(My Definition of Best: Someone who is
> qualified through experience and greater knowledge
> concerning the positions that they are candidates
> for. Someone who is honest and forthright
> and does not have a tendency toward drama
> and exaggeration. Someone who will do their utmost for
> the citizens of NR. Someone willing to spend the
> time and often their own money to build Nova Roma
> up, not tear her down. Someone who will make
> mistakes because they are human. Someone,
> because of their humanity, I can relate to.
> Someone who has demonstrated these qualities to
> me.)</TT></P>
> <P><TT>I do not always agree with some of the people
> in our government and I have taken issue with them,
> however, even though I disagree, I recognize that
> this may be the *best* person in a given position not
> the *perfect* person in a given position. In my
> little experience with NR, I have found gentle
> persuasion to further my cause is more effective than
> bombastic and offensive language. </P></TT>
> <P><TT>Draco:<BR>In conclusion, everything taken into
> account, I would like to repeat my<BR>suggestion.
> Right now, we have over 1000 citizens. It seems very
> unlikely to<BR>me that right now, no candidates would
> be found for any of the higher<BR>offices other than
> the same old faces. So my suggestion is that
> these<BR>people, who previously held the position of
> Praetor, Consul or Censor, not<BR>run for office, to
> show their goodwill, and their willingness to leave NR
> in<BR>the hands of fresh newcomers. They will be all
> the more respected for this<BR>decision, because
> authority is usually not respected because of the
> power it<BR>has - authority is directly derived from
> respect, and not the other way<BR>around.</TT></P>
> <P><TT>Maximina:</TT></P>
> <P><TT>I am not sure what you mean by fresh
> newcomers. How fresh? Speaking just for
> myself, I would like someone with
> experience. </TT></P>
> <P><TT> If you were running a business, and I am
> assuming that you do not, would you hire some *fresh*
> newcomer to manage your business? Or would you want
> someone who has experience in the type of business you
> run and can contribute their skills to making your
> business grow? (Example: I worked for GM who
> hired many *fresh* newcomers (interns) straight out of
> college and gave the "Golden Handshake" to many
> longtime, experienced employees. This mistake
> cost them a lot more money than they realized at the
> time. Quality took a nosedive and they have
> spent years trying to recover. Many businesses
> have made this mistake.)</TT></P>
> <P><TT></TT><TT>IMHO, most of the 1000+ members we
> have do not have any interest in politics and even
> less if they have visited this list and see how
> elected officials are treated!</TT></P>
> <P><TT>Please do not misunderstand, I read your posts
> and if you are interested, I think you are honest and
> intelligent. I truly believe you think you are
> acting in the best interests of NR. I hope that
> you are able to read my post in the spirit of
> friendship and know that I too have the best interests
> of NR at heart. </TT></P>
> <P><TT>Vale, Maximina</TT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [Lose 20 lbs by November 5th]
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Appointment to Triumvir |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:29:50 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Triumvir Gnaeus Felix Astur;
I send you my sincere congratulations on your appointment to the
position of Triumvir for the Academia Thule. The position of Triumvir
is a important one for the Academia in it's formative years and requires
a great deal of time and effort to consider your position on items
placed before you for your consideration. The long term decisions
rendered at the Triumvirate's meetings will affect the Academia long
after it has begun it's formal task and the procedures, rules and ideas
placed into use and approval now will be part of a matrix which will
affect the Academia and it's adherents for years to come.
I have every confidence that ProPraetor Quintillianus has chosen well in
his selection of you for this task. You have been sensible in your
appoach to your previous duties in the Academia, as well as, respectful,
helpful, forthcoming, and hardworking in your efforts. My
congratultions on your appointment, and my best wishes for you, your
fellow Triumvirs, and for the Academia Thule. I am always pleased to
see that a person who is able to work well within a group is advanced as
his abilities indicate his worth.
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] PAX |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:42:13 -0700 |
|
Ave,
I am very pleased to announce that Tiberius Apollonius and I have worked
out our disagreements. He has stated I can forward this to the ML and I
shall do that:
____
Salve Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
I apolegize for the unapropiate words i said to you.
You can send this to the main list if you like and i will confirm it.
Vale
Tiberius Apollonius Callias
____
I am pleased to accept this and will start fresh with Tiberius
Apollonius.
Very Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] blood war |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:50:52 +0100 (BST) |
|
Tiberius Apollonius cicatrix Marco Cornelio Felici
S.P.D.
I feel I need to reply to two posts you recently made,
insulting the GENS Apollonia.
MESSAGE 1:
-----
>Salve to the Apollonia Tiberius
>
>look below at letter for what i am replying to:
>
>I Marcus Cornelius Felix am GAY and I am a Cornelia
>have been for over 2
>years Sulla knows has known from the start , I hold a
>post of Honnor
>in the Gens ( look at my titles at end of post).
>Sulla is not a homophobic
>anything he has a lot of Gay friends.
>take that back , or i will say Blood war on you and
>yours ....
>IE no Apollonia will ever get my vote on the CP for
>any priesthood
>( yes i am a pontitff and yes i get to vote on who
>gets a priesthood in NR)
>Marcus Cornelius Felix
>Pontitff
>Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
>Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
>Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
-----
RESPONDEO: So, because one disgruntled member of our
gens attacked your pater, no one out of the gens
Apollonia will ever get support from you for a
priesthood? A very fast and general conclusion, I
think. You might reconsider this. And a 'blood war'??
Come on, where are your thoughts? Maybe you should
take these words back...
MESSAGE 2:
-----
> Salve
>
> someone asked me if i was thinking that
> Do you feel that the Apollonii have
> insulted the Gods by attacking Their (The Gods')
> elected magistrates,
>
> to that i say YES i do so ....
> vale
>
>
> Marcus Cornelius Felix
> Pontitff
> Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
> Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
> Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
-----
RESPONDEO: Same comments as before, not the whole gens
attacked elected magistrates. And by no means we would
try to insult the gods, since many among our gens
members are strong believers.
Vale
=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________
"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)
____________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] blood war |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:15:25 -0700 |
|
Ave,
There is no reason to continue this discussion. As far as I am
concerned Tiberius Apollonius and I are starting fresh.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix wrote:
>
> Tiberius Apollonius cicatrix Marco Cornelio Felici
> S.P.D.
>
> I feel I need to reply to two posts you recently made,
> insulting the GENS Apollonia.
>
> MESSAGE 1:
> -----
> >Salve to the Apollonia Tiberius
> >
> >look below at letter for what i am replying to:
> >
> >I Marcus Cornelius Felix am GAY and I am a Cornelia
> >have been for over 2
> >years Sulla knows has known from the start , I hold a
> >post of Honnor
> >in the Gens ( look at my titles at end of post).
> >Sulla is not a homophobic
> >anything he has a lot of Gay friends.
> >take that back , or i will say Blood war on you and
> >yours ....
> >IE no Apollonia will ever get my vote on the CP for
> >any priesthood
> >( yes i am a pontitff and yes i get to vote on who
> >gets a priesthood in NR)
> >Marcus Cornelius Felix
> >Pontitff
> >Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
> >Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
> >Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
> -----
>
> RESPONDEO: So, because one disgruntled member of our
> gens attacked your pater, no one out of the gens
> Apollonia will ever get support from you for a
> priesthood? A very fast and general conclusion, I
> think. You might reconsider this. And a 'blood war'??
> Come on, where are your thoughts? Maybe you should
> take these words back...
>
> MESSAGE 2:
> -----
> > Salve
> >
> > someone asked me if i was thinking that
> > Do you feel that the Apollonii have
> > insulted the Gods by attacking Their (The Gods')
> > elected magistrates,
> >
> > to that i say YES i do so ....
> > vale
> >
> >
> > Marcus Cornelius Felix
> > Pontitff
> > Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
> > Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
> > Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
> -----
>
> RESPONDEO: Same comments as before, not the whole gens
> attacked elected magistrates. And by no means we would
> try to insult the gods, since many among our gens
> members are strong believers.
>
> Vale
>
> =====
> Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
> civis Novae Romae
> ____________________________
>
> "De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur,
> decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I,
> 20)
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: blood war |
| From: |
"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:39:12 -0000 |
|
Salve omnesque mi frater:
I disagree. This whole issue is between one member of the Appolloni
and Pater - many Appolloni are honorable and should not be insulted
so. And if I just read correctly, the matter has already been settled
- there is no dignitas in pursuing it further.
Omnes - the personal attack that generated this response, AND the
response of my frater, are the type of expression we should refrain
from in the Forum. No one gains anything by ad hominem attacks,
except
a bad reputation.
I apologize for making this comment - but the offense was equally
public and should not go uncommented.
Bene valete in pace Deorum,
Marius Cornelius Scipio
--- In novaroma@--------, "william wheeler" <hol--------elia@h...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> someone asked me if i was thinking that
> Do you feel that the Apollonii have
> insulted the Gods by attacking Their (The Gods') elected
magistrates,
>
> to that i say YES i do so ....
> vale
>
>
> Marcus Cornelius Felix
> Pontitff
> Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
> Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
> Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: blood war |
| From: |
"Mike Rasschaert" <hadescallias@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:12:19 -0000 |
|
Salvete
> I disagree. This whole issue is between one member of the Appolloni
> and Pater - many Appolloni are honorable and should not be insulted
> so. And if I just read correctly, the matter has already been
settled
> - there is no dignitas in pursuing it further.
> > someone asked me if i was thinking that
> > Do you feel that the Apollonii have
> > insulted the Gods by attacking Their (The Gods') elected
> magistrates,
> >
> > to that i say YES i do so ....
> > vale
I have to agree with him, condemning all the gens for the acts of one
is stupid, sorry if this is offensive but i couldn't find a synonime
for it. I don't attack the Gods and like it was said, the Gods don't
elect the magistrates but they had a role into it and further of all.
i know you are standing up for your frater but it is already settled
so don't start the fire again that has nothing to do with you in the
first place. Like i said before: it was between me and Sulla and
noone else had anything to do with it.
Vale
Tiberius Apollonius Callias
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Digest No1591 |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:21:34 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, censor Equitius.
--- Lucius Equtius Cincinnatus <vze23hw7@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I'm sorry that this wasn't as clear to everyone as it was to me.
>
> I was refering to the proportions of centuries in each class.
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99073007.html
> A. Class I shall have 55 centuries;
> B. Class II shall have 47 centuries;
> C. Class III shall have 39 centuries;
> D. Class IV shall have 30 centuries;
> E. Class V shall have 22 centuries.
>
> This was overturned by the Lex Iunia Centuriata, or rather replaced
> by the clause, "By all such edicts, the centuries will be
> allocated to five classes such that Class I will have the greatest
> number of centuries, and Class V the least." Which allows the
> Censores to have something like the following, **for example**:
> Class I, 90 centuries;
> Class II, 50 centuries;
> Class III, 40 centuries;
> Class IV,10 centuries;
> Class V, 3 centuries.
> etc.
> The Censores have chosen to stay with the example in the origanal Lex
>
> Vedia Centuriata, which is more balenced than what the Romans used in
>
> the "Servian" Assembly, and what is now possible under current law.
>
> Valete, Censor L Equitius Cincinnatus
I agree with your point of view, and I thank you for keeping to the
original proportion; but don't you think it would be safer for future
years to revoke Lex Iunia Centuriata?
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1590 |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:30:58 -0400 |
|
Salve Marcus Cornelius,
I have no interest at all in the sexuality of my fellow citizens. Although,
I found your remarks about gens Apollonia quite disturbing. It seems as
though you are abusing your religio powers. I am aware that you are entitled
to your opinions in matters like this, but please reconsider. Gens Apollonia
is made up of more then just a few selected individuals. Consider them above
your own interests for a moment.
Citizens who actively practice the religio should be encouraged to take up a
priesthood if they wish. Your statement is anything but encouragement to
citizens who are Apollonii.
"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
>Marcus Cornelius Felix at holyconelia@-------- wrote:
> I Marcus Cornelius Felix am GAY and I am a Cornelia have been for over 2
> years Sulla knows has known from the start , I hold a post of Honnor
> in the Gens ( look at my titles at end of post). Sulla is not a homophobic
> anything he has a lot of Gay friends.
> take that back , or i will say Blood war on you and yours ....
> IE no Apollonia will ever get my vote on the CP for any priesthood
> ( yes i am a pontitff and yes i get to vote on who gets a priesthood in NR)
> Marcus Cornelius Felix
> Pontitff
> Legate America Boreoccidentalis Minore
> Sacerdos Primus America Boreoccidentalis
> Gens Sacerdos Cornelia
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Relative strength of classes and centuries |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:44:28 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes.
--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> wrote:
> Salve Tite Labiene,
>
> (I've changed the subject line to something more appropriate than
> "Digest")
>
> > > ...classes contain people whose only points are for
> > > longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
>
> > > vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
> >
> > Essentially, this implies an argument to either remove or severely
> limit the
> > number of points given for longevity.
>
> I agree. If we cut the point values for longevity to a third or a
> quarter
> of their present values, that could neatly solve the problem of the
> 2nd and 3rd centuries being filled with inactive citizens.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
I want to share a couple of ideas on this issue, if you don't mind.
First, the problem you are pointing out, Octavi, will solve itself once
we implement the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. If these
citizens are truly inactive, then they won't pay taxes and will be
placed on century 193. The problem will be solved :-).
Second, if you want to limit the number of points awarded for
longevity, I would suggest simply placing a limit (say five years'
worth). In that way, we will save our Republic from becoming a
gerontocracy ;-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office (was Edictum Propraetoricium XXIV about the Appointment of a new Triumvir Academia Novae Romae in Thule.) |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve, propraetor Lutecio.
--- Yann Quéré <yquere@--------> wrote:
> Salve Gnaeo, et congratulations for your new position
> Vale optime, Fortuna Deorum tibiscumque
Gratias multas, propraetor Lutecio. Sit Fortuna et Felicitas etiam
tibiscum.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Appointment to Triumvir |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:18:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve, honorabilissime senator Marce Audens.
--- jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
> Triumvir Gnaeus Felix Astur;
>
> I send you my sincere congratulations on your appointment to the
> position of Triumvir for the Academia Thule. The position of
> Triumvir
> is a important one for the Academia in it's formative years and
> requires
> a great deal of time and effort to consider your position on items
> placed before you for your consideration. The long term decisions
> rendered at the Triumvirate's meetings will affect the Academia long
> after it has begun it's formal task and the procedures, rules and
> ideas
> placed into use and approval now will be part of a matrix which will
> affect the Academia and it's adherents for years to come.
>
> I have every confidence that ProPraetor Quintillianus has chosen well
> in
> his selection of you for this task. You have been sensible in your
> appoach to your previous duties in the Academia, as well as,
> respectful,
> helpful, forthcoming, and hardworking in your efforts. My
> congratultions on your appointment, and my best wishes for you, your
> fellow Triumvirs, and for the Academia Thule. I am always pleased to
> see that a person who is able to work well within a group is advanced
> as
> his abilities indicate his worth.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
It is always a pleasure to hear words of praise; when they come from
someone as noted for his balance and equanimity as you are, senator,
they become by themselves a motive of pride.
Thank you very much for your kind words; I hope I will be able to
fulfil your expectations.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Appointment to Triumvir |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:28:14 +0200 |
|
>Triumvir Gnaeus Felix Astur;
>
>I send you my sincere congratulations on your appointment to the
>position of Triumvir for the Academia Thule. The position of Triumvir
>is a important one for the Academia in it's formative years and requires
>a great deal of time and effort to consider your position on items
>placed before you for your consideration. The long term decisions
>rendered at the Triumvirate's meetings will affect the Academia long
>after it has begun it's formal task and the procedures, rules and ideas
>placed into use and approval now will be part of a matrix which will
>affect the Academia and it's adherents for years to come.
>
>I have every confidence that ProPraetor Quintillianus has chosen well in
>his selection of you for this task. You have been sensible in your
>appoach to your previous duties in the Academia, as well as, respectful,
>helpful, forthcoming, and hardworking in your efforts. My
>congratultions on your appointment, and my best wishes for you, your
>fellow Triumvirs, and for the Academia Thule. I am always pleased to
>see that a person who is able to work well within a group is advanced as
>his abilities indicate his worth.
>
>Respectfully;
>Marcus Audens
Salve Amice!
These are good advices from a respected man with a big heart. I thank You,
Illustrus Marcus Minucius Audens, for the kind words to us all and to the
Academia!
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II) |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:01:10 -0300 |
|
Salvete,
Could we please instaur a no html, no attachment policy
on this list. The number of unreadable mails is growing everyday.
Vale,
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1590 |
| From: |
"Maia Apollonia Pica" <mjarc@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:08:00 +0200 |
|
Salvete!
Amulius Claudius Petrus wrote:
> Citizens who actively practice the religio should be encouraged to
> take up a priesthood if they wish. Your statement is anything but
> encouragement to citizens who are Apollonii.
But I don't think we are going to have this gens war after all?
<looks up to fondly admire the nasty weaponry hanging all over her
room>
Valete in pace Deorum
Maia Apollonia Pica
|
