Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Here I go again
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:02:37 +0200


Subject:	[novaroma] Active or Inactive?
From:	"Sybil Leek" <DolanAp@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:21:46 -0700

Salvete Marcus Octavius Germanicus and Tite Labiene,

I am a citizen that falls in this category. In that my main points come from
longevity and with only one new gens member in the last year... I have not
served in a public office but I have voted in elections faithfully. However,
I do not believe that my access and ability to participate in Nova Roma
should be "cut" through my points because I am not seen as a valued citizen
(public figure) of Nova Roma.

I do agree that there seems to be an imbalance in the point system, as well
as, in the ratio of class in Nova Roma. It seems to me that being seen as an
active citizen in Nova Roma means also being computer literate. I however,
have very few skills concerning computers, i.e. I do not feel that I have
the skills needed to perform the duties of such an office. This does not
however mean that I would not like to try, just that I fear I would fail in
my attempt. Personally, I would not like to fail any endeavor that I try in
the name of my favored Nova Roma. I would prefer doing justice to its' name,
for I wish to see it grow in prosperity.

It seems for now that the majority of interaction between Nova Roman
citizens is conducted on the internet. Citizens interactions occur through
the various mailing lists and through service to its public offices on the
net and by maintaining its outward availability to people in general. I have
also noticed that there are some localized physical meetings conducted by
the citizenry. However, I have not seen that these physical meetings are in
general practice by the citizenry body at large on a regular basis.

Due to the above mentioned circumstances it seems that Nova Roma is only
partially fulfilling its full potential as a re-creative society. I believe
that more complete communication and better physical attendance at localized
meetings might lead to a richer involvement in the Nova Roma society as a
whole. To facilitate such interactions a more accessible and open line of
communication is needed by the citizens of Nova Roma to participate.

To conclude my ramblings, I believe that we have a very good start at being
a great society. We have the benefit of a committed ruling body, we are
growing internationally and locally in numbers. I also believe that we could
have greater involvement by those individuals who are not, or do not, have
the ability to be in official public office if we involve them in other
ways. We can increase our over all citizen involvement through better
facilitated communication. Hence, our Governors having access to personal
contact information, so that local physical meetings of the citizenry body
could take place on a regular basis. If we can achieve this level of
interaction in our citizenry body at large; we may discover that those
individuals, now seen as inactive, are actually very interested in being
involved in the growth of Nova Roma.

Valete Prima Ritulia Nocta

What is the use of a head without a body to navigate.

>Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:41:05 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
>Subject: Relative strength of classes and centuries
>
>Salve Tite Labiene,
>
>(I've changed the subject line to something more appropriate than "Digest")
>
> > > ...classes contain people whose only points are for
> > > longevity, with little activity; such citizens are less likely to
> > > vote than an interested newcomer with fewer points.
> >
> > Essentially, this implies an argument to either remove or severely limit
>the
> > number of points given for longevity.
>
>I agree. If we cut the point values for longevity to a third or a quarter
>of their present values, that could neatly solve the problem of the
>2nd and 3rd centuries being filled with inactive citizens.
>
>Vale, Octavius.
>
>--
>M. Octavius Germanicus
>Propraetor, Lacus Magni
>Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
>lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
>their C programs." -- Robert Firth

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Here I go again
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:41:58 -0000

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
> So what you are proposing is to punish Patrician Paterfamilias
> because we are active and I do not support that.

Salve, Luci Corneli Sulla Felix.

Ave Titus Octavius,

I'm sorry if you feel I suggested punishment for you and the other
patrician paterfamilii, such was not my intention. I didn't, and still
don't, consider it a "punishment" to make the path to become a
patrician
somewhat more demanding than that to join the plebeian ranks. To tie
into the recent discussion on oligarchy, Roma Antiqua was indeed an
aristocracy, in my opinion. The aristocracy, the patricians, made up
for
1 percent of the population and easily half the wealth, and even more
power.

Sulla: I understand you do not mean it as a punishment, I do. I
think any governmental internvention in the interal operations of a
Gens (familiae) should be extremely limited, and on only extreme
circumstances. I agree about your conclusion about the Patricians
being 1% but the problem it was that in the LATE REPUBLIC. We really
do not know the precentages of the Orders during the Third Year of
Romulus's rule. In a recent discussion on AIM with Lucius Sicinius I
learned that at the time of the third year of the founding of Rome
Plebs were not even citizens (if I remember the conversation
correctly).

They (the patricians) were very cautious about letting anyone into
their
ranks, and with our current system the reverse is true. Anyone wanting
to be a patrician will probably, due to active and welcoming
paterfamilii such as yourself, indeed become one. This is not in
itself
bad, it actually speaks well of your faith in new citizens, but it
rhymes ill with the system of Roma Antiqua, which we are trying to
recreate here. As has been said before, we are not trying to build
Utopia, but build a nation in the spirit of Roma Antiqua.

Sulla: Who says we are not cautious about letting anyone into our
ranks? M. Octavius approved you to join the Gens Octavia. I approve
my Gens members. I have my own way of approving gens members. But
that is not the point. The problem with the numbers of Plebians vs.
Patricains is diminishing. If you look at the first year of NR,
most citizens were Patricians. By the time I took office it was at a
ration of about 40% Patricians 60% Plebians. Now we are down to
about 30% Patricians and 70% Plebs. Next year it will go even
lower. It would have gone further if more Plebian Paters/Maters
actually responded to Censor requests. However, since the problem
has been identified and is in the process of being corrected you can
view the Album Gentium to see that most of the Gentes that needed to
be closed are Plebians.

Again, I apologize for disturbing anyone through broaching the
subject,
I can only blame it on the math exam I had today. There's no better
time
for philosophical ponderings than when the time's running out for your
finals...:)

Sulla: Its no problem to bring this up. But we want to identify the
root cause for this. That cause is the lack of response on
Paters/Maters. I brought up before that there would have been about
300 additional Plebian citizens if those Paters/Maters responded.
Unfortunately that has not happened.

Very Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II)
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:07:29 -0400

Salve,

>>Could we please instaur a no html, no attachment policy on this list. The
number of unreadable mails is growing everyday.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus>>

The "no attachment" policy has been in effect on this List from its
inception. If you have received attachments they have not been via this
List. As for "html" posts, up until today there has only been the very rare
problem. I am certain the person who posted today has remedied her posting,
as she has *never* had this problem until today.

If you are having a "growing" problem reading your e-mails please contact me
privately and I will be happy to assist you in adjusting your list settings.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Analysis of NR (II)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:46:21 EDT

Draco:
A few months ago, I posted an email to this list, in which I tried to analyze
the problem of activity here in NR, which many complain about, and the
subsequent forming of a "government by the few", partially as a resultof the
population's political passivity. Anyway, I'm not here today to talk about
this snake that is eating itself, but something different.

Cassius respondit:
May I ask exactly what you mean by "the snake that is eating itself?"

>Draco:
>In fact, I think that we can't really complain about NR's system - in
theory. A breakdown of the different aspects:(1) DEMOCRATIC ASPECT: In fact,
democracy in NR is much more direct than in many other countries. Letting the
whole population vote on leges, and having elections each year are very
democratic things to do, and surpass the way things are in many macronations.

Cassius:
I thank you for this, Draco. This is a �fact that has been completely ignored
in the daily litany of complaints about how awful/unfair/oppressive Nova Roma
is. Its very nice to see something positive show up for once!

>Draco
>However, there is the problem of patricians and plebeians. Personally, I see
two possible solutions:a) Let the patricians vote in the Comitia Plebis but
take away their extra century points.

Cassius:
That would be a huge departure from historical form, wouldn't it? �And, if
the Patricians were in the Plebian assembly too, what would make it different
from the Comitia Centuriata?

>Draco:
>b) Drastically reduce the number of patricians.I think the first option of
the two would be the best to do, although latteroption is more Roman in
practice and origin.

Cassius:
Hmm. And how would this be done? Controlled hunting? ;)

(2) OLIGARCHIC ASPECT: I think the idea of calling the Senatores"aristocrats"
is rediculous. They are not "the best", and none of them is,to my
recollection, of a noble descent.

Cassius:
And what is wrong with calling Senators "Senators" or "The Senate?" �Is there
some reason why those ancient Roman titles are inaccurate? �Or are they just
not a divisive enough a club for you to beat on others with? �

Draco:
Whatever offence American citizenstake at this word, I do not find it
offensive, and I honestly can't think of a better definition.

Cassius:
I disagree with this *greatly*. �Oligarch is a deliberately derogatory term
which basically means "self serving power hungry criminal." �What on earth is
wrong with calling others "People" or "Citizens"? �There is no reason that
you truly NEED an official �"catch-all" name for you to defame, vilify and
dehumanize your opponents with - even though I'm sure its convenient and
pleasing for you to have one.

>Draco:
>Even plutocracy (government of the rich) is not suitable. The Senate has a
large >influence here in NR, and I recall that one of my first discussions in
Nova Roma was about this very problem. I said that this situation would lead
to conservatism and corruption, because our Senatores are appointed to this
body for life, unless they invoke the wrath of their colleagues of course.

Cassius:
Draco, after all this time it still seems that you don't understand what the
Senate IS. You keep talking about it as if it is THE government of Nova Roma.
It is not. It is an *advisory* body, which has a couple of specific direct
powers, particularly taxes/finances, and appointing Provincial Praetors. The
Nova Roma *government* is the elected magistrates and the Comitiae of the
People.

>Draco:
>In many countries, there is an oligarchical aspect (a board of ministers or
something), and I have no problem with this.But I do have a problem with
Senatores appointed for life. They will never invite their enemies, fit as
they may be for that office, into the Senate,and thus it will grow into a
bastion of conservatism.

Cassius:
I hate to surprise you, but the ancient Rome itself was a bastion of
conservatism. Tradition and the Mos Maiorum have been the foundation of the
of the Roman system since before the Republic.

As far as Senators being appointed for life - I think you are mistaking the
Senate for a board of elected magistrates. It is not. The Senatorial class is
simply one of the Roman Classes, like the Ordo Equester. It is supposed to
be a bastion of Roman conservatism and tradition, not a forum for the most
popular political "flavor of the month".

The ancient Romans believed that it was important to have a guiding body of
old conservative curmudgeons advising the State... keeping a certain amount
of experience and expertise around is what provides stability. �The Senate is
not unlike a Board of Directors - and many Boards of Directors of
organizations are long term posts rather than short term elected ones.

Your assertion that the Senate will never invite any of it's "enemies" is
just plain a falsehood. First, the Senate is made up of both Patricians and
Plebeians who's ideals and friendships vary widely. Secondly, the Senate has
in fact continually shown a policy of being willing to add even the most
controversial people. We had a few Senators of that sort walk out on the Ides
of March, remember? Trying to paint the Senate as some sort of "old boy
network" that is in lockstep together is absurd.

>Draco:
>The only light at the end of the tunnel would be going for Praetor, Consular
Censor, but given that most people of the old garde run for one of those
positions and get elected each year, it is hard to push your way inside the
Senate.

Cassius:
True, it is easier to be elected as a magistrate and actually be one of the
people that *govern* Nova Roma, than it is to get into the Senate and be an
advisor to Nova Roma. Not that its impossible... just more difficult. For
instance, it is not easy for a demagogue to get in just because he happened
to be temporarily riding high on the changeable tide of public opinion.

>Draco:
>(3) MONARCHIC ASPECT: This exists in many civilized countries, too, undert
he form of presidents, or constitutional kings and queens. So again, in
principle there is nothing wrong with this. The only problem here is that the
Consules are stonger than the Tribuni.

Cassius:
It is historical for the Consuls to have wider powers than the Tribunes. This
is not a "problem," it is simply the Roman system. In fact, this aspect of
the Roman system is very similar to that of most modern Democratic
governments. Are you really insisting that say, the "Speaker of the House"
in Congress should have more power than the elected President of a nation?

>Draco:
>In conclusion, everything taken into account, I would like to repeat my
suggestion. Right now, we have over 1000 citizens. It seems very unlikely to
me that right now, no candidates would be found for any of the higher offices
other than the same old faces.

Cassius:
I certainly hope to see new Citizens volunteering for various magistracies
this year! So far we've always had trouble fielding enough candidates for the
available offices... but more people do come forward each election time. Why,
last year we actually had some *races* for an office, instead of "almost
enough" candidates to fill positions without contest.

>Draco:
>So my suggestion is that these people, who previously held the position of
Praetor, Consul or Censor, not run for office, to show their goodwill, and
their willingness to leave NR inthe hands of fresh newcomers. They will be
all the more respected for this decision, because authority is usually not
respected because of the power it has - authority is directly derived from
respect, and not the other way around.

Cassius:
So... everyone with proven talent, experience, and years of time, effort and
money invested here should walk away completely, and leave Nova Roma entirely
in the hands of new Citizens who have no experience and nothing invested
here? I find it difficult to believe that this makes sense even to you.

Not that I haven't seen this kind of impulse before. I see it all the time in
Pagan groups and other social organizations. "Thanks founders, for building
this neat place! But I deserve to own it and you don't. So get out."

Draco, I am your "poster child" of an Oligarch. Twice Consul, once Praetor,
Proconsul, Pontifex Maximus, Senator. I am one of the Founders of Nova Roma.
I've spent four years of time, effort, and emotion on this place. I've
invested a few thousand dollars of my own money in it.

And you know what? I still LOVE Nova Roma. I am interested in it, excited by
it, inspired by it. Every day I work for it, and try to help build it toward
it's ultimate potential. I spend my time with it's people, I write about it
and for it, I take time from other activities that could do far more for me
as a person in order to serve it.

You may think that kind of enthusiasm makes me an "old boy criminal" who
wants to keep others out. That's crap. What it makes me is a valuable Citizen
- and being a valuable Citizen is what I pride myself on, not titles. I
spend my time encouraging others, trying to keep them involved and active. I
WANT others to fill positions of influence, and have spend four years working
toward that as a goal.

The active and experienced Citizens of Nova Roma DO NOT NEED to "retire" in
order for new folks to be involved. There are still far more things to be
done than we have people for... positions we can't fill, projects we can't
staff, etc. We need everyone we can get - even if you and your small group
of friends don't like them.

I state now that I am not going to "show my goodwill by leaving Nova Roma in
the hands of fresh newcomers." Rather, I will show my goodwill by remaining
active and valuable, and encouraging fresh newcomers to join myself and
others in doing the same!

Nova Roma is not a game of "Musical Chairs" where there are only a limited
amount of seats for too many people. Nova Roma is more like an empty Coloseum
with only a few people in the almost empty stands, trying very hard to be a
proper Roman crowd. There is more than enough room for everyone here.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

� �

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] To argentinians / recordatorio a los argentinos
From:	danielovi@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:56:33 -0000

Salvete omnes
This post is for the citizens from provincia Argentina. Next
Saturday, we shall meet as usual at the same time and the same place
since it is the first Saturday of the month.
Bene valete
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis Argentina

Salvete omnes.
Este mensaje es para los ciudadanos de provincia Argentina.
El pr�ximo S�bado nos encontraremos como habitualmente lo hacemos a
la misma hora y mismo lugar, puesto que es el primer s�bado de mes.
Bene valete.

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis Argentina


Subject:	[novaroma] Apology - longish
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:10:10 -0400

C Marius Merullus omnibus civibus et amicis Novae Romae salutem plurimam
dicit

I apologize to you all today for my neglect of duty this year.

It is not that I regret what I have been doing for all this time. Last
fall, my company folded and I was out of work; my brother, a carpenter, was
also out of work. My wife had just given birth to our second daughter. We
had no bedroom for our daughters, and a perennially leaking roof, consisting
of three small structures with different pitches. We had saved sufficiently
to undertake a major building project, but not enough to build from the
ground. In late fall, I completed the foundation work and began a new
chimney. Then, in December, I packed up my family and they moved to live
with relatives. My brother and I built a new carrying wall on the north
side of the house, and framed a second floor. My father and uncle, both
retired from the construction trade, joined us, and we had just removed the
highest roof of the old house when we received thirty-four inches of snow.
>From that point on, it was a cycle of demolish-build-cover-remove
snow-demolish, and so on, through the winter. The house is again whole, now
with adequate bedrooms for the entire family, and one evenly pitched, sound
roof over the entire structure. My family has been living here for about
three weeks. This project of mine is nearly finished, except for siding on
the north side of the house, and completion of the lararium, about which I
may say more in another message.

I did what I had to do, but I did not fulfill my obligations before two
sodalitates of Nova Roma: in both the Outreach and Latin groups, I was
responsible for overseeing elections for this year. Yet I oversaw no
elections. I could have turned over my responsibilities to other officers
of those groups with just a little planning, had I only been honest with
myself. Instead, I told myself that I would be able to manage, moving the
computer from one part of the house to another, as different parts were
gutted and re-built. I managed to move my sleeping mat around that way, but
I didn't touch the computer until March, when it was time to demolish the
room in which it had been.

All this would probably be easier to overlook except for the fact that I
have, from my early days of citizenship, criticized most anyone and everyone
who withdrew candidacy for election, forgot to summon an assembly or acted
in any way contrary to any lex or edictum. Furthermore, I promulgated, with
others, edicta that stressed the gravity of citizenship and obligations to
the Res Publica, and even one that provides penalties for magistrates who
resign citizenship more than once a year. The irony is not lost on me that,
after all that, I left my constituents in two sodalitates in a more
difficult position than I would have by resigning at the end of last year.
I also forced the censores to close my gens, and might well have discouraged
a prospective citizen from joining by failing to respond to inquires about
joining gens Maria.

I am ready and willing to face the consequences of these actions, whatever
they may be. I am back, to continue to do what I can for Nova Roma, in omne
tempus. With my next message to the censores, I shall re-open gens Maria.

I thank Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix and
Priscilla Vedia Serena for their assistance in getting me back in touch with
the Nova Roman world.

Vt omnes bene valeatis

C Marius Merullus


Subject:	[novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:55:38 -0500

Salve,
Does anyone have any idea where there might be some Roman
themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?

Vale,
Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
ICQ#: 29580250
AIM: LegateMajor


Subject:	[novaroma] The Tabularium, Our Foundation
From:	Gaius Iulius Sulla <c_iulius_sulla@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:41:00 -0700 (PDT)

C Iulius Sulla Novoromanis S.P.D.,

Let me start with an observation: the Tabularium is an
excellent example of the open nature of our government
and its operation. In my humble opinion, it is one of
the first places with which a citizen (or potential
citizen) should become familiar. It is faithfully
maintained by our Curator Araneae, Marcus Octavius
Germanicus, with the assistance of the Senators.

I am concerned some have overlooked just how important
this body of leges, edictas, and Senatus Consulta
really is. There have been ongoing debates about
fairness, oligarchy, et cetera. And yet, I have seen
very little citation of lex.

We are separated from our forefathers' customs by many
centuries, yet our Tabularium has captured what was to
them (our original Conscript Fathers) unwritten
custom.

I applaud men like Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix for
his constant references to the leges and constitution
of NR. There will always be great men and women in NR
-- those who attain that certain pre-eminence;
however, we are a republic of leges, not people, and
definitely not oligarchies.

I write all of this to draw attention to one of our
many leges:

LEX IUNIA DE TEMPORUM DEFINITIONE CONSULATUUM

"This law shall regulate the amount of times a person
may hold the office of consul during a specified time
period."

"I. No person shall hold the office of consul for two
years consecutively, or in any five year period, hold
the office of consul more than twice."

These are NOT the leges of an oligarchy.

O citizens of this Republic, study your leges and
enforce them. Know the foundation upon which our
Republic was built. To honor the lex is to honor the
Republic. To forget the lex is to forget who we
aspire to be.

Your Servant
C Iulius Sulla

--- cassius622@-------- wrote:
> Draco:
> A few months ago, I posted an email to this list, in
> which I tried to analyze
> the problem of activity here in NR, which many
> complain about, and the
> subsequent forming of a "government by the few",
> partially as a resultof the
> population's political passivity. Anyway, I'm not
> here today to talk about
> this snake that is eating itself, but something
> different.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> May I ask exactly what you mean by "the snake that
> is eating itself?"
>
>
> >Draco:
> >In fact, I think that we can't really complain
> about NR's system - in
> theory. A breakdown of the different aspects:(1)
> DEMOCRATIC ASPECT: In fact,
> democracy in NR is much more direct than in many
> other countries. Letting the
> whole population vote on leges, and having elections
> each year are very
> democratic things to do, and surpass the way things
> are in many macronations.
>
> Cassius:
> I thank you for this, Draco. This is a �fact that
> has been completely ignored
> in the daily litany of complaints about how
> awful/unfair/oppressive Nova Roma
> is. Its very nice to see something positive show up
> for once!
>
> >Draco
> >However, there is the problem of patricians and
> plebeians. Personally, I see
> two possible solutions:a) Let the patricians vote in
> the Comitia Plebis but
> take away their extra century points.
>
> Cassius:
> That would be a huge departure from historical form,
> wouldn't it? �And, if
> the Patricians were in the Plebian assembly too,
> what would make it different
> from the Comitia Centuriata?
>
> >Draco:
> >b) Drastically reduce the number of patricians.I
> think the first option of
> the two would be the best to do, although
> latteroption is more Roman in
> practice and origin.
>
> Cassius:
> Hmm. And how would this be done? Controlled hunting?
> ;)
>
>
> (2) OLIGARCHIC ASPECT: I think the idea of calling
> the Senatores"aristocrats"
> is rediculous. They are not "the best", and none of
> them is,to my
> recollection, of a noble descent.
>
> Cassius:
> And what is wrong with calling Senators "Senators"
> or "The Senate?" �Is there
> some reason why those ancient Roman titles are
> inaccurate? �Or are they just
> not a divisive enough a club for you to beat on
> others with? �
>
>
> Draco:
> Whatever offence American citizenstake at this word,
> I do not find it
> offensive, and I honestly can't think of a better
> definition.
>
> Cassius:
> I disagree with this *greatly*. �Oligarch is a
> deliberately derogatory term
> which basically means "self serving power hungry
> criminal." �What on earth is
> wrong with calling others "People" or "Citizens"?
> �There is no reason that
> you truly NEED an official �"catch-all" name for you
> to defame, vilify and
> dehumanize your opponents with - even though I'm
> sure its convenient and
> pleasing for you to have one.
>
> >Draco:
> >Even plutocracy (government of the rich) is not
> suitable. The Senate has a
> large >influence here in NR, and I recall that one
> of my first discussions in
> Nova Roma was about this very problem. I said that
> this situation would lead
> to conservatism and corruption, because our
> Senatores are appointed to this
> body for life, unless they invoke the wrath of their
> colleagues of course.
>
> Cassius:
> Draco, after all this time it still seems that you
> don't understand what the
> Senate IS. You keep talking about it as if it is THE
> government of Nova Roma.
> It is not. It is an *advisory* body, which has a
> couple of specific direct
> powers, particularly taxes/finances, and appointing
> Provincial Praetors. The
> Nova Roma *government* is the elected magistrates
> and the Comitiae of the
> People.
>
> >Draco:
> >In many countries, there is an oligarchical aspect
> (a board of ministers or
> something), and I have no problem with this.But I do
> have a problem with
> Senatores appointed for life. They will never invite
> their enemies, fit as
> they may be for that office, into the Senate,and
> thus it will grow into a
> bastion of conservatism.
>
> Cassius:
> I hate to surprise you, but the ancient Rome itself
> was a bastion of
> conservatism. Tradition and the Mos Maiorum have
> been the foundation of the
> of the Roman system since before the Republic.
>
> As far as Senators being appointed for life - I
> think you are mistaking the
> Senate for a board of elected magistrates. It is
> not. The Senatorial class is
> simply one of the Roman Classes, like the Ordo
> Equester. It is supposed to
> be a bastion of Roman conservatism and tradition,
> not a forum for the most
> popular political "flavor of the month".
>
> The ancient Romans believed that it was important to
> have a guiding body of
> old conservative curmudgeons advising the State...
> keeping a certain amount
> of experience and expertise around is what provides
> stability. �The Senate is
> not unlike a Board of Directors - and many Boards of
> Directors of
> organizations are long term posts rather than short
> term elected ones.
>
> Your assertion that the Senate will never invite any
> of it's "enemies" is
> just plain a falsehood. First, the Senate is made up
> of both Patricians and
> Plebeians who's ideals and friendships vary widely.
> Secondly, the Senate has
> in fact continually shown a policy of being willing
> to add even the most
> controversial people. We had a few Senators of that
> sort walk out on the Ides
> of March, remember? Trying to paint the Senate as
> some sort of "old boy
> network" that is in lockstep together is absurd.
>
> >Draco:
> >The only light at the end of the tunnel would be
> going for Praetor, Consular
> Censor, but given that most people of the old garde
> run for one of those
> positions and get elected each year, it is hard to
> push your way inside the
> Senate.
>
> Cassius:
> True, it is easier to be elected as a magistrate and
> actually be one of the
> people that *govern* Nova Roma, than it is to get
> into the Senate and be an
> advisor to Nova Roma. Not that its impossible...
> just more difficult. For
> instance, it is not easy for a demagogue to get in
> just because he happened
> to be temporarily riding high on the changeable tide
> of public opinion.
>
> >Draco:
> >(3) MONARCHIC ASPECT: This exists in many civilized
> countries, too, undert
> he form of presidents, or constitutional kings and
> queens. So again, in
>
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Active or Inactive?
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:12:26 -0400

Salve,

>on 8/29/01 8:21 PM, Sybil Leek at DolanAp@-------- wrote:

>It seems to me that being seen as an
> active citizen in Nova Roma means also being computer literate. I however,
> have very few skills concerning computers, i.e. I do not feel that I have
> the skills needed to perform the duties of such an office. This does not
> however mean that I would not like to try, just that I fear I would fail in
> my attempt. Personally, I would not like to fail any endeavor that I try in
> the name of my favored Nova Roma. I would prefer doing justice to its' name,
> for I wish to see it grow in prosperity.

Don't be so hard on yourself. =) I doubt you would fail, seeing how strongly
you wish for the best of the res publica. Give it a try, you may surprise
yourself. People tend to learn quickly when they feel strongly about the
issues at hand. You seem to be one of these people.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Armistice/Deadhorse
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:09:28 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

If I can get a group of us talking about what rights we feel we wish to see protected, I'll move the discussion anywhere. I'm already a member of the NR Laws list and would welcome such a discussion there. I already have many individuals subscribed to the NRCR list and will keep it active for now. If two similar conversations develop I will cross post any significant information or try to meld the two groups, whichever seems most appropriate. Thanks for our interest and for those who have already joined the conversation, thanks as well.
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:18:55 -0400

Salve,

>Sextus Cornelius Cotta at cotta@-------- wrote:
> Does anyone have any idea where there might be some Roman
> themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?

I designed a Nova Roma desktop wallpaper. If you are interested I would be
more then happy to upload it to the Canada Orientalis provincia website for
you could easily download it.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Apology - longish
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:20:55 -0500

Ave Merulllus,

Gaius Marius Merullus wrote:
>
> C Marius Merullus omnibus civibus et amicis Novae Romae salutem plurimam
> dicit
>
> I apologize to you all today (excise explanation)
>
> Vt omnes bene valeatis
>
> C Marius Merullus
>

Welcome home.

Personally, I understand the emotion and feeling driving your personal
circumstance.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives et Paterfamilias
Qu�stor, Legate et Dominus Sodalis
Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/
The Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:56:13 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

I have a wonderful "Gladiator" desktop which I got
through the official Gladiator website. Just type in
Bona Fortuna.

Pompeia Antonia Caesaria

--- Charlie Collins <cotta@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
> Does anyone have any idea where there might be
> some Roman
> themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?
>
> Vale,
> Sextus Cornelius Cotta
>
>
>
> --
> Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
> America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
> ICQ#: 29580250
> AIM: LegateMajor
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:57:48 -0700

Also a good website is desktopthemes.com

Many of my friends at earthlink have uploaded a variety of themes there.

Vale,

Sulla

PompeiaAntoniaCaesar wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> I have a wonderful "Gladiator" desktop which I got
> through the official Gladiator website. Just type in
> Bona Fortuna.
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesaria
>
> --- Charlie Collins <cotta@--------> wrote:
> > Salve,
> > Does anyone have any idea where there might be
> > some Roman
> > themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?
> >
> > Vale,
> > Sextus Cornelius Cotta
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
> > America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
> > ICQ#: 29580250
> > AIM: LegateMajor
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
> Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [Lose 20 lbs by November 5th]
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:00:14 +0200

Salve Maximina,

For the convenience of Censor Sulla and everyone else, I have stripped this
reply of html.

<< I think the idea of calling the Senatores"aristocrats" is rediculous.
They are not "the best", and none of them is, to my recollection, of a noble
descent. >>

MAXIMINA: IMHO, Nobility is in the actions and the hearts of those who do
service to Nova Roma. >>

DRACO: Oh great! That means I am noble as well :).

MAXIMINA: I see no merit or nobility in those who are constantly being
critical and trying to tear it down especially in it's infancy. Isn't it
better to present reasonable solutions instead of being the problem?

DRACO: Well, it would take some search through the archives, but reasonable
solutions to the problems I described were presented by me and by others. I
had an alternative to the Capiti Censi law, and there was a lot of talk
about an alternative for the Name Change law, which was �almost� presented
for a vote. Plus, I have actively tried to make the Sodalitas Musarum an
active and attractive society, away from all political battles and riots. I
think that is what my opponents frequently forget.

<< But I do have a problem with Senatores appointed for life. They will
never invite their enemies, fit as they may be for that office, into the
Senate, and thus it will grow into a bastion of conservatism.The only light
at the end of the tunnel would be going for Praetor, Consulor Censor, but
given that most people of the old garde run for one of those positions and
get elected each year, it is hard to push your way inside the Senate. >>

MAXIMINA: Perhaps if those who are critical were to offer viable solutions
to what *they* think are problems, they may be elected. Do you really think
the citizens want to elect someone who is counter-productive and prone to
dramatic overstatement. The people who are serving are elected
(elected=chosen). They are chosen, why? Answer: because they are the best!

DRACO: I will digress here on macronational politics, but, was George W.
Bush elected because he was the best? No. He had the best campaign. He may
have been the best, but being better than the other person(s) running for
the same office as you does not make you win automatically. So I disagree
with your reasoning.

MAXIMINA: If the people thought someone else was the best, they would
*choose* that candidate. (My Definition of Best: Someone who is qualified
through experience and greater knowledge concerning the positions that they
are candidates for. Someone who is honest and forthright and does not have a
tendency toward drama and exaggeration. Someone who will do their utmost for
the citizens of NR. Someone willing to spend the time and often their own
money to build Nova Roma up, not tear her down. Someone who will make
mistakes because they are human. Someone, because of their humanity, I can
relate to. Someone who has demonstrated these qualities to me.)

DRACO: And do you think this can only refer to the "old garde"? There are
enough citizens here who apply to your definition, but I wish you would see
the difference between neutral criticism and tearing down something. I don't
consider myself, in any case, as a naturally destructive person, and most of
those in the political opposition are also usually more than just a voice of
criticism.

MAXIMINA: I do not always agree with some of the people in our government
and I have taken issue with them, however, even though I disagree, I
recognize that this may be the *best* person in a given position not the
*perfect* person in a given position.

DRACO: I disagree. Anyone with a decent campaign can get elected.

MAXIMINA: In my little experience with NR, I have found gentle persuasion to
further my cause is more effective than bombastic and offensive language.

DRACO: Some people can effectuate things through this, but appearently,
being gentle has never furthered any of my causes. Perhaps it's me, I don't
know ;).

<< In conclusion, everything taken into account, I would like to repeat
mysuggestion. Right now, we have over 1000 citizens. It seems very unlikely
tome that right now, no candidates would be found for any of the higher
offices other than the same old faces. So my suggestion is that these
people, who previously held the position of Praetor, Consul or Censor, not
run for office, to show their goodwill, and their willingness to leave NR in
the hands of fresh newcomers. They will be all the more respected for this
decision, because authority is usually not respected because of the power it
has - authority is directly derived from
respect, and not the other way around. >>

MAXIMINA: I am not sure what you mean by fresh newcomers. How fresh?

DRACO: People who haven't held these higher offices before.

MAXIMINA: Speaking just for myself, I would like someone with experience. If
you were running a business, and I am assuming that you do not, would you
hire some *fresh* newcomer to manage your business? Or would you want
someone who has experience in the type of business you run and can
contribute their skills to making your business grow? (Example: I worked for
GM who hired many *fresh* newcomers (interns) straight out of college and
gave the "Golden Handshake" to many longtime, experienced employees. This
mistake cost them a lot more money than they realized at the time. Quality
took a nosedive and they have spent years trying to recover. Many businesses
have made this mistake.) IMHO, most of the 1000+ members we have do not have
any interest in politics and even less if they have visited this list and
see how elected officials are treated!

DRACO: The way officials are treated usually depends on how they behave,
imo. Anyway, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying
that citizen Newbie, citizen for a month, runs for Consul. What I'm saying
is that people who continue to dwindle in the sub-top or in the outer
regions of the government (such as provinciae) now step up to hold these
positions. They are qualified, experienced, but are not "old" in a sense
that they haven't held these positions before. I hope that clarifies my
stance.

MAXIMINA: Please do not misunderstand, I read your posts and if you are
interested, I think you are honest and intelligent. I truly believe you
think you are acting in the best interests of NR. I hope that you are able
to read my post in the spirit of friendship and know that I too have the
best interests of NR at heart.

DRACO: Thank you. It's nice to have a rational discussion from time to time
;).

Vale optime,
S. Apollonius Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Active or Inactive?
From:	Gaius Iulius Sulla <c_iulius_sulla@-------->
Date:	Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:24:28 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

You have just demonstrated all the computer literacy
you will need. If you need something more, just ask
your fellow citizens. That's why the Gods made
scribae :)

Vale,
Sulla
--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> >on 8/29/01 8:21 PM, Sybil Leek at
> DolanAp@-------- wrote:
>
> >It seems to me that being seen as an
> > active citizen in Nova Roma means also being
> computer literate. I however,
> > have very few skills concerning computers, i.e. I
> do not feel that I have
> > the skills needed to perform the duties of such an
> office. This does not
> > however mean that I would not like to try, just
> that I fear I would fail in
> > my attempt. Personally, I would not like to fail
> any endeavor that I try in
> > the name of my favored Nova Roma. I would prefer
> doing justice to its' name,
> > for I wish to see it grow in prosperity.
>
> Don't be so hard on yourself. =) I doubt you would
> fail, seeing how strongly
> you wish for the best of the res publica. Give it a
> try, you may surprise
> yourself. People tend to learn quickly when they
> feel strongly about the
> issues at hand. You seem to be one of these people.
>
>
> "Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum
> mater ab vitualis"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is
> often the mother of virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
> Canada Orientalis Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
>
> Gens Claudia Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
> --
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Analysis of NR (II)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:25:03 +0200

Salve , O Consul

> Draco:
> A few months ago, I posted an email to this list, in which I tried to
analyze
> the problem of activity here in NR, which many complain about, and the
> subsequent forming of a "government by the few", partially as a resultof
the
> population's political passivity. Anyway, I'm not here today to talk about
> this snake that is eating itself, but something different.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> May I ask exactly what you mean by "the snake that is eating itself?"
>

Ok... Few people really take an active role in NR (id est actually _doing_
things), which leaves the burden upon the shoulders of the small group of
active people. Those people, in turn, naturally hold multiple offices and
are often active in all branches of NR. This discourages some people, who
assume (and I said assume) that NR is run by a clique of people, and so they
go dormant, silent and passive.

>
> >Draco:
> >In fact, I think that we can't really complain about NR's system - in
> theory. A breakdown of the different aspects:(1) DEMOCRATIC ASPECT: In
fact,
> democracy in NR is much more direct than in many other countries. Letting
the
> whole population vote on leges, and having elections each year are very
> democratic things to do, and surpass the way things are in many
macronations.
>
> Cassius:
> I thank you for this, Draco. This is a fact that has been completely
ignored
> in the daily litany of complaints about how awful/unfair/oppressive Nova
Roma
> is. Its very nice to see something positive show up for once!
>

Well, thanks!

> >Draco
> >However, there is the problem of patricians and plebeians. Personally, I
see
> two possible solutions:a) Let the patricians vote in the Comitia Plebis
but
> take away their extra century points.
>
> Cassius:
> That would be a huge departure from historical form, wouldn't it? And, if
> the Patricians were in the Plebian assembly too, what would make it
different
> from the Comitia Centuriata?
>

True. I have wondered about this myself. As I said, this is a rather
un-Roman solution. But it would be the most viable, unless you have
something different in mind.

> >Draco:
> >b) Drastically reduce the number of patricians.I think the first option
of
> the two would be the best to do, although latteroption is more Roman in
> practice and origin.
>
> Cassius:
> Hmm. And how would this be done? Controlled hunting? ;)
>

Hey, that's an idea. No, seriously, I wouldn't know. Some have suggested to
put a stop on the acceptance of new patrician citizens, or to split up
gentes, so that the number of plebeians would increase. However, both of
these proposals have been under heavy fire, especially by some patricians.
This whole pat-pleb thing is complicated, and will probably need a
complicated solution, less simpler than what I have proposed.

>
> (2) OLIGARCHIC ASPECT: I think the idea of calling the
Senatores"aristocrats"
> is rediculous. They are not "the best", and none of them is,to my
> recollection, of a noble descent.
>
> Cassius:
> And what is wrong with calling Senators "Senators" or "The Senate?" Is
there
> some reason why those ancient Roman titles are inaccurate? Or are they
just
> not a divisive enough a club for you to beat on others with?
>

No, it is not about sticking name tags to people. And in case you haven't
noticed, I usually do lable the Senate as "the Senate".

>
> Draco:
> Whatever offence American citizenstake at this word, I do not find it
> offensive, and I honestly can't think of a better definition.
>
> Cassius:
> I disagree with this *greatly*. Oligarch is a deliberately derogatory term
> which basically means "self serving power hungry criminal." What on earth
is
> wrong with calling others "People" or "Citizens"? There is no reason that
> you truly NEED an official "catch-all" name for you to defame, vilify and
> dehumanize your opponents with - even though I'm sure its convenient and
> pleasing for you to have one.
>

I would like to remind you that I am not of American descent, and honestly
must admit that even after all this time, don't understand the amount of
offence you take at this word. But if you want me to, I won't use it.
However, as Fortunatus pointed out, it applies to a neutral
dictionary-definition.

> >Draco:
> >Even plutocracy (government of the rich) is not suitable. The Senate has
a
> large >influence here in NR, and I recall that one of my first discussions
in
> Nova Roma was about this very problem. I said that this situation would
lead
> to conservatism and corruption, because our Senatores are appointed to
this
> body for life, unless they invoke the wrath of their colleagues of course.
>
> Cassius:
> Draco, after all this time it still seems that you don't understand what
the
> Senate IS. You keep talking about it as if it is THE government of Nova
Roma.
> It is not. It is an *advisory* body, which has a couple of specific direct
> powers, particularly taxes/finances, and appointing Provincial Praetors.
The
> Nova Roma *government* is the elected magistrates and the Comitiae of the
> People.
>

I didn't say the Senate was "the government". I said that the Senate has a
large influence, which is no lie at all. Besides, appointing governors is
quite a power, as are the control over finances. Plus, despite the fact that
Senatus Consulta have no actual power, they exercize a lot of influence.

> >Draco:
> >In many countries, there is an oligarchical aspect (a board of ministers
or
> something), and I have no problem with this.But I do have a problem with
> Senatores appointed for life. They will never invite their enemies, fit as
> they may be for that office, into the Senate,and thus it will grow into a
> bastion of conservatism.
>
> Cassius:
> I hate to surprise you, but the ancient Rome itself was a bastion of
> conservatism. Tradition and the Mos Maiorum have been the foundation of
the
> of the Roman system since before the Republic.
>

I disagree. There were more than enough reformers, rioteers and bloody civil
wars to demonstrate that many wanted to change things in the Roman Republic.
And changing, it did! The Mos Maiorum, by the way, has more to do with a
moral code than it has to do with governing.

> As far as Senators being appointed for life - I think you are mistaking
the
> Senate for a board of elected magistrates. It is not. The Senatorial class
is
> simply one of the Roman Classes, like the Ordo Equester. It is supposed
to
> be a bastion of Roman conservatism and tradition, not a forum for the most
> popular political "flavor of the month".
>

I didn't say that. Although I would hate to see the Senate change into a
fashion parade of the "flavour of the month", as you describe it, having the
"flavour of the millennium" hardly seems like a better thing :). But there
are a lot of things in between chaos and conservatism. Not everything is so
dual.

> The ancient Romans believed that it was important to have a guiding body
of
> old conservative curmudgeons advising the State... keeping a certain
amount
> of experience and expertise around is what provides stability. The Senate
is
> not unlike a Board of Directors - and many Boards of Directors of
> organizations are long term posts rather than short term elected ones.
>
> Your assertion that the Senate will never invite any of it's "enemies" is
> just plain a falsehood. First, the Senate is made up of both Patricians
and
> Plebeians who's ideals and friendships vary widely. Secondly, the Senate
has
> in fact continually shown a policy of being willing to add even the most
> controversial people. We had a few Senators of that sort walk out on the
Ides
> of March, remember? Trying to paint the Senate as some sort of "old boy
> network" that is in lockstep together is absurd.
>

Ok, I should have expressed myself better. What I mean is that in time, the
Senate will inevitably grow into this, but of course this is just my
opinion, and no fact. I compare it to instituting clientelism, which,
according to me, will lead to the formation of mobs and mafias, despite the
obvious noble intentions. That is what I am trying to say.

> >Draco:
> >The only light at the end of the tunnel would be going for Praetor,
Consular
> Censor, but given that most people of the old garde run for one of those
> positions and get elected each year, it is hard to push your way inside
the
> Senate.
>
> Cassius:
> True, it is easier to be elected as a magistrate and actually be one of
the
> people that *govern* Nova Roma, than it is to get into the Senate and be
an
> advisor to Nova Roma. Not that its impossible... just more difficult. For
> instance, it is not easy for a demagogue to get in just because he
happened
> to be temporarily riding high on the changeable tide of public opinion.
>

I smell an insinuation here :). Well, I never said it was impossible, did I?

> >Draco:
> >(3) MONARCHIC ASPECT: This exists in many civilized countries, too,
undert
> he form of presidents, or constitutional kings and queens. So again, in
> principle there is nothing wrong with this. The only problem here is that
the
> Consules are stonger than the Tribuni.
>
> Cassius:
> It is historical for the Consuls to have wider powers than the Tribunes.
This
> is not a "problem," it is simply the Roman system. In fact, this aspect of
> the Roman system is very similar to that of most modern Democratic
> governments. Are you really insisting that say, the "Speaker of the House"
> in Congress should have more power than the elected President of a nation?
>

I am not an expert in American politics, so I don't really understand your
example.

> >Draco:
> >In conclusion, everything taken into account, I would like to repeat my
> suggestion. Right now, we have over 1000 citizens. It seems very unlikely
to
> me that right now, no candidates would be found for any of the higher
offices
> other than the same old faces.
>
> Cassius:
> I certainly hope to see new Citizens volunteering for various magistracies
> this year! So far we've always had trouble fielding enough candidates for
the
> available offices... but more people do come forward each election time.
Why,
> last year we actually had some *races* for an office, instead of "almost
> enough" candidates to fill positions without contest.
>

True enough. The elections were quite, umm, exciting, shall we say.

> >Draco:
> >So my suggestion is that these people, who previously held the position
of
> Praetor, Consul or Censor, not run for office, to show their goodwill, and
> their willingness to leave NR inthe hands of fresh newcomers. They will be
> all the more respected for this decision, because authority is usually not
> respected because of the power it has - authority is directly derived from
> respect, and not the other way around.
>
> Cassius:
> So... everyone with proven talent, experience, and years of time, effort
and
> money invested here should walk away completely, and leave Nova Roma
entirely
> in the hands of new Citizens who have no experience and nothing invested
> here? I find it difficult to believe that this makes sense even to you.
>
> Not that I haven't seen this kind of impulse before. I see it all the time
in
> Pagan groups and other social organizations. "Thanks founders, for
building
> this neat place! But I deserve to own it and you don't. So get out."
>
> Draco, I am your "poster child" of an Oligarch. Twice Consul, once
Praetor,
> Proconsul, Pontifex Maximus, Senator. I am one of the Founders of Nova
Roma.
> I've spent four years of time, effort, and emotion on this place. I've
> invested a few thousand dollars of my own money in it.
>
> And you know what? I still LOVE Nova Roma. I am interested in it, excited
by
> it, inspired by it. Every day I work for it, and try to help build it
toward
> it's ultimate potential. I spend my time with it's people, I write about
it
> and for it, I take time from other activities that could do far more for
me
> as a person in order to serve it.
>
> You may think that kind of enthusiasm makes me an "old boy criminal" who
> wants to keep others out. That's crap. What it makes me is a valuable
Citizen
> - and being a valuable Citizen is what I pride myself on, not titles. I
> spend my time encouraging others, trying to keep them involved and active.
I
> WANT others to fill positions of influence, and have spend four years
working
> toward that as a goal.
>

I did not say that we should push aside the founders, and the people who
have very good qualifications. I did not call for your removal, did I? I
think that most magistrates, even the "old ones" are doing a good job. But
that doesn't mean that it can't be someone else's turn to govern. Besides,
even if you won't hold an office other than Senator and Pontifex, you know
just as well as I do that you will still have a large influence on this
micronation, a moral authority that is stronger than any legal one.

> The active and experienced Citizens of Nova Roma DO NOT NEED to "retire"
in
> order for new folks to be involved. There are still far more things to be
> done than we have people for... positions we can't fill, projects we can't
> staff, etc. We need everyone we can get - even if you and your small
group
> of friends don't like them.
>

Well, for this I refer to my snake.

> I state now that I am not going to "show my goodwill by leaving Nova Roma
in
> the hands of fresh newcomers." Rather, I will show my goodwill by
remaining
> active and valuable, and encouraging fresh newcomers to join myself and
> others in doing the same!
>
> Nova Roma is not a game of "Musical Chairs" where there are only a limited
> amount of seats for too many people. Nova Roma is more like an empty
Coloseum
> with only a few people in the almost empty stands, trying very hard to be
a
> proper Roman crowd. There is more than enough room for everyone here.

Let us hope so.

Vale bene, and thanks for taking the time,
S. Apollonius Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Ubi est Aedilis Plebis Formosanus? (Where is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus?)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:08:21 +0100

Salvete omnes

Formosanus is a very active citizen. Nevertheless he turns his activity
towards things that are not of his competence, forgetting those which belong
to his responsibilities. The people of Roma has elected him as Aedilis
Plebis. But he seems to forget that. He spends all his time posting useless
inflamatory messages against those who follow their duties.

The duty of an Aedilis Plebis is to promote entertainment to the people of
Roma. Maybe Formosanus thinks that the conflicts he provokes are amusing,
but I'm sure that many of us would prefer other types of entertainment such
as the Ludi Circenses and the Munera Gladiatoria promoted by OLIGARCHS
Quintus Fabius Maximus and Antonius Gryllus Graecus when they were Aedilis
Curulis and Aedilis Plebis respectively. Maybe some of us prefer the
Military Strategy game promoted by OLIGARCH Quintus Fabius Maximus when he
was Curulis Aedilis.
In summary, Formosanus has accomplished nothing as Aedilis Plebis besides
creating permanent conflicts in the main list.

But now the tactics of that man have slightly changed to acquire a more
Bizantine character. He has offered PAX to Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla (by
the way, another OLIGARCH who does his duty as Censor everyday). And he has
also offered me to write him privately. That man almost convinced me that he
was well intentioned and willing to forget the past to help building our
Nova Roma. But I was wrong. That man has again thrown dirt on his white toga
by attacking the magistrates of the Respublica on the recently created
NRCR@-------- mailing list for debate on civil rights in Nova Roma. I
am attaching his posting at the end of my message.
That man dreams with the ressurrection of the Amici Dignitatis and is now
trying to use the NRCR list to accomplish this goal, stabbing Magistrates T.
Labienus Fortunatus and M. Cassius Iulianus on their back with the infamous
dagger. What about his war flag? Guess what? It's again the old story of
Lucius Marius Peregrinus, an issue already voted and decided by the people
in the Comitia!

Formosanus asks those magistrates for a Bill of Rights. I now ask Formosanus
about his Games:
UBI SUNT LUDI CIRCENSES MUNERAQUE GLADIATORIA, Aedilis Plebis Formosane?

For one thing I know... While Roma had no Bill of Rights, Roma HAD CIRCUS!
But I can see no CIRCUS. I can only see the Tragedies in the Ludi Scaenici
(Theatrical Games) that Formosanus promotes everyday in the mailing lists of
Nova Roma. The people have elected Formosanus to manage the CIRCUS, not to
be an actor playing sometimes the role of a fake Tribunus Plebis, sometimes
singing the laments of a mourning woman or weeping the tears of a sad clown!
The people has been betrayed in the last elections!
I leave a reflection for you. If this man is unable to manage the Circus,
how can someone consider him worth of being elected to a magistracy with
Imperium? How can this man be offered a seat in the Senate? He would surely
pollute the temple of Concordia when the Senate had to meet in there!

UBI EST AEDILIS PLEBIS FORMOSANUS? UBI SUNT LUDI CIRCENSES MUNERAQUE
GLADIATORIA? MEA SENTENTIA: FORMOSANUM PRODITOREM AD LEONES IN SUO CIRCO!!!
(Where is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus? Where are the Circus Games and the
Gladiatorial Games? My opinion: [Deliver] traitor Formosanus to the lions in
his Circus!)

Dii vos bene ament,
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

*********************************************

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus
Amatoribus Iurum Hominis S.P.D.

I would like to thank Procopious for creating this much
needed list and inviting us to it.

Although it has been said by some the the ancient Romans
did not have the idea of human rights, that is only true in
a rather limited interpretation. The struggles with the
socii over time gave rise to a clear idea of "Ius"
(pronouced "yoos"), which meant not only "law", but also
"right" - something that a person was legally entitled to
do. The struggle between the orders within Rome also led to
a clarification of this concept, as the plebeians gained
clear *rights* to certain things, enforceable through the
tribunes.

So much for *civil* rights. Through the concepts
developing out of Stoic ideas of natural law and
cosmopolitanism, which contributed to the theoretic
background of the jurisprudence of the Ius Gentium (Law of
Nations or international law) applicable to human beings as
such, by the end of the process in the Code of Justinian
the findamentals of the natural rights of man were well
developed in practice - *human* rights.

Although the Greeks (or some of them) are justly famous
for their love of freedom, democratic institutions and
political theory, in fact the history of Rome made the idea
of rights enforceable at law a more clearly developed
there, and later Roman law took much of the best from both
traditions and bequeathed it to the whole Western world.
Where, indeed it was joined by other traditions arising out
of Germanic mediaeval sources to make some of our modern
ideas of civil and human rights.

In Nova Roma we are blessed with a constitution that
provides many guaranteed rights, and leges have provided us
with others, such as the right of privacy. In practice they
have proven inadequate in some cases, partly because they
are not detailed enough, partly because we do not have an
adequate system of judicial review or even a basic justice
system (although Diocletianus has done a good job at
developing a procedure for certain actions at law), and
partly because the tribunes have not been given enough
power in practice to stop some kinds of abuses which they
theoretically should be the ones to stop.

I shall not belabour the point, but the treatment of
Lucius Marius Pergrinus convinced many of us that the
constitutional prohibition against discrimination by sexual
preference was not clear enough to secure equal rights for
all in his case. And the subsequent actions of the Senate
acting as a court, which many might consider inappropriate
in itself, in "convicting" Marius of deeds that were
nowhere written down as crimes, some of which took place in
private places outside of Nova Roman public space and were
only heard of by report, etc. seemed to many of us highly
irregular, and not to enhance the dignitas or auctoritas of
the Senate, nor promote confidence in the degree to which
our laws protect the individual civis.

The ultimate result of this was the creation of the Amici
Dignitatis, a group which was based on the signing of the
Dignitas Statement, which was simply the assertion that
certain ordinary human and civic rights should be observed
out of respect for the dignitas of the individual civis.
The group operated a mailing list to discuss these things,
the Dignitas Forum, no longer in existence, sponsored some
debates and voter-information sites, and some candidates
who had signed the Statement identified themselves openly
as Amici Dignitatis. Some of these won.

The Amici were subject to intense attack because the
existence of the group was correctly perceived as being a
living criticism of some things a lot of the more powerful
individuals in Nova Roma had been doing in their treatment
of "rights" issues. This led to a few people "unsigning"
the Statement, despite the fact that they believed in it
and publicly said so. I still have "Amicus Dignitatis" in
my e-mail signature, however, because I am proud of this
movement and unjust criticism does not faze me.

This year we were promised a Bill of Rights for Nova Roma
by both T. Fortunatus Labienus and C. Cassius Iulianus. It
has not yet appeared, and if it did I might wonder if it
would adequately address all the issues I at least am
concerned about adequately.

Now we have this admirable initiative by Procopious, and I
see that the membership so far contains people of somewhat
different political complexions, so I hope that we will be
able to work together to produce a recommendation for a
Bill of Rights by some name that will be comprehensive,
adequately detailed, and enforceable.

I have become famous because my first political activity
in Nova Roma was the defence of a civis who just wanted to
change his name and was denied the right to do so because
it involved changing the gender of that name due to the
sexual minority that the citizen belonged to and the
special problems they have. My involvement in that was a
matter of personal conscience, and I think it must be
pursued as a matter of principle until it is solved.
However, I have no particular interest in this type of case
- actually my professional concenrns are more in the area
of linguistic justice - and I shall be interested in all
aspects of the discussions here, I am sure.

I have publicly stated the three human rights issues that
already exist for me in already existing legislation, i.e.
the problems with the Lex Cornelia et Maria de Mutandis
Nominibus for non-surgical trangendering persons, the
existence of de facto punishments for non-criminals in the
Lex de Civitate Eiuranda, and the current discriminatory
policies relating to language on the Main List. I think
that any civil rights legislation that pretends to be
adequately comprehensive and detailed to do any good must
invalidate such legislation and insofar as possible to
human ingenuity make it impossible for things of that
nature to ever be promulgated in Nova Roma again.

I hope that Procopious will forgive my impetuosity in
rushing in to use this list which he has so graciously
created before he himself has - and I assure him that I
intend to leave the effective chairing of it to him. But I
am the sort of person who ordered a copy of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights from the United Nations when in
elementary school and memorised the whole preamble. Later I
worked with various American groups dedicated to different
human rights, and in Taiwan worked for political and
lingusitic rights for "native" Taiwanese (at some real risk
of deportation if not worse). I now am working in a modest
way for Chinese and Tibetan human rights and with the
Universal Esperanto Association for the rights of language
minorities.

I introduce the facts because it is easy to get stereotyped
in Nova Roma based on a small facet of one's personality or
activities, and I would like it to be clear to all that the
struggle for human rights in all parts of the world,
naturally including Nova Roma, is a normal part of my life,
and not something arising our of a personal dislike for
anyone in particular here here.

I am sure that others on this list might well have
something to say about their more general work for the
human rights movement that also might be of interest or
inspiration to us. I know Octavius, for example, to be a
member of the American Civil Liberties Union, an
organisation which I deeply admire and which in fact helped
me personally with a human rights case in the past with an
efficiency that impressed me very much.

It is obvious that we want to preserve human rights here in
a typically Roman way as much as possible, but my personal
concern would be that however we do it, it should be
adequate to our needs as a 21st Century C.E. micronation.

Bene valete!


Subject:	[novaroma] european meeting
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <manius_constantinus_serapio@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:19:51 -0000

AVETE OMNES

I would like to remember to you that at
www.nritalia.f2s.com/forumfulvii
you can find all informations about the next european meeting.
You have time untill the 15th of september to give me your agreement!

BENE VALETE MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Civis Provinciae Italiae


Subject:	[novaroma] The home stretch...
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:22:26 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

Today (roughly) marks the end of the first two-thirds of the Consulship of
myself and Marcus Cassius. I thought it would be beneficial at this time to
look back on some of the accomplishments of the last eight months, and look
forward to what I feel are the challenges and opportunities of the next
four.

I think it is fair to say, at the risk of self-promotion, that the last
eight months have been good ones for Nova Roma. Our voting procedures have
been reformed, standards for our highest magistracies put in place, holes in
our laws plugged, fair and modest annual dues established, and old divisive
issues put to the vote of the People. More and more face-to-face meetings
are being held all the time, we are starting to make our mark felt in the
world of academia, and the production of our first currency was a
spectacular success. We are gaining more and more attention from the media,
and of course just hit the thousand-cive mark.

Have there been rough spots? Of course. But with such a roster of
accomplishments, I still claim the right to feel both proud and optimistic.
I think almost everyone will agree that we are, as a nation, better off now
than we were eight months ago. And let us not forget that none of this is
the work of a single individual; none of our fantastic growth and wonderful
accomplishments would have been possible without the assistance and
participation of many, many people.

Of course, it is impossible to foresee every issue that might pop its head
over the horizon, but in the coming months, I will try to focus on a few
remaining things I'd like to see accomplished:

CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS

First and foremost, there are important changes to our Constitution that
will be taken up by the Comitia Centuriata. These include allowing the
children of cives to be regarded as cives themselves, reforming the
Tribunate, and allowing provinces much more flexibility in their own
organization. These items will be brought before the People in September, as
soon as the Senate finishes its discussions of the specifics of the
amendments.

BUDGET AND FINANCIAL ACCOUNTABILITY

Beyond that, the Senate must of course come up with a budget for next year,
and I intend to begin that process early on. Too, we need to find volunteers
to serve as publicani to help cives overseas pay their annual membership
dues next year. The question of financial accountability is always one that
should weigh in our minds, and research is currently underway to figure out
how publicani (and quaestors!) shall be bonded to handle funds. In more
general terms, the Senate will also be looking at methods to control our
funds more responsibly, so that expenses are paid in a professional and
above-board manner.

THE LEGAL SYSTEM

As most here know, our legal system is something that is still yet to be put
in place, except in isolated elements hither and yon. There has been
admirable work done thusfar (in particular the establishment of procedures
for civil suits by Caius Flavius Diocletianus), however, and that work is
finally about to bear fruit. The mock trial to be held by Praetor Quintus
Fabius is the stepping stone towards the realization of a complete legal
code and prodecure, which will hopefully serve to enhance all our
experiences within Nova Roma.

THE COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBUTA

I think it is safe to say that no one is satisfied with the current
situation regarding the Comitia Plebis. It goes unused because plebiscita
passed there would go unvoted-on by fully a third of the People, yet would
remain binding on them. Various solutions have been proposed, some of which
seem more acceptable than others. This is an issue that I want to see
resolved before the end of the year.

LOCAL ORGANIZATION

In more general terms, I would still like to see progress made on local
chapter organization. Specifically, passage of a lex that would give
guidelines and structure for such local chapters, allowing their members the
benefit of close-knit local interaction without burdensome interference from
above. That desire, of course, must be balanced against the need for
monetary controls and the guarantee of legal protection and opportunity
within the group. This is a balance I believe we can achieve.

GENS REFORM

In a nutshell; should we keep the present gens system, or break the gentes
into familia? And if so, how? While I am not sure this is an issue that will
be resolved this year, I would like to see at least the debate framed, the
issues discussed, and solutions bandied about. It's come up in several
different venues, and I think a discussion on the question here would be
most valuable.

I am certain that issues unforeseen will raise their heads; such is the
nature of life and politics. But the six items listed above will frame my
agenda as I work, as always, in what I believe is the best interests of the
Republic and its Citizens. I thank you all for the support I have been shown
thusfar, and hope to continue to earn that support in the coming months.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] web site
From:	"Julie & Lawrence Brooks" <anubis@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:57:47 -0400

I've received a few messages that our website has been inaccessible for a
few days. If anyone has tried within the last fews days to access our
website, it was down for some updates and to add a new look. The Roman link
is now back up at http://www.lawrensnest.com/roman.html

Vale
Varia Cassia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	"Julie & Lawrence Brooks" <anubis@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:58:50 -0400

Pompeia, what is the url for the official Gladiator website? I'd like to see that.

Thanks,

Varia Cassia

----- Original Message -----
From: PompeiaAntoniaCaesar
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?

Salve,

I have a wonderful "Gladiator" desktop which I got
through the official Gladiator website. Just type in
Bona Fortuna.

Pompeia Antonia Caesaria

--- Charlie Collins <cotta@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
> Does anyone have any idea where there might be
> some Roman
> themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?
>
> Vale,
> Sextus Cornelius Cotta
>
>
>
> --
> Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
> America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
> ICQ#: 29580250
> AIM: LegateMajor
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:11:37 -0000

Salutem

For those who prefer more peaceful and inspiring Desktop Pictures,
here are some sugestions:

http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/alma/p-alma8.htm
http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/alma/p-alma6.htm
http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/alma/p-alma7.htm
http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/alma/p-alma5.htm
http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/alma/p-alma9.htm
http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/alma/p-alma14.htm

These are some paitings by Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema.
I have myself chosen the first (The Roses of Heliogabalus) as my
Desktop Picture.

Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

--- In novaroma@--------, "Julie & Lawrence Brooks" <anubis@s...> wrote:
> Pompeia, what is the url for the official Gladiator website? I'd
like to see that.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Varia Cassia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: PompeiaAntoniaCaesar
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
>
>
> Salve,
>
> I have a wonderful "Gladiator" desktop which I got
> through the official Gladiator website. Just type in
> Bona Fortuna.
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesaria
>
>
> --- Charlie Collin--------t;cotta@--------> wrote:
> > Salve,
> > Does anyone have any idea where there might be
> > some Roman
> > themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?
> >
> > Vale,
> > Sextus Cornelius Cotta
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
> > America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
> > ICQ#: 29580250
> > AIM: LegateMajor
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Ubi est Aedilis Plebis Formosanus? (Where is Aedilis
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:36:26 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Antoni Grylle,

> That man dreams with the ressurrection of the Amici Dignitatis and is now
> trying to use the NRCR list to accomplish this goal, stabbing Magistrates T.
> Labienus Fortunatus and M. Cassius Iulianus on their back with the infamous
> dagger. What about his war flag? Guess what? It's again the old story of
> Lucius Marius Peregrinus, an issue already voted and decided by the people
> in the Comitia!

The NRCR list was specifically set up to discuss those and similar topics.
While such discussion is rightly considered to be akin to flogging
a defunct equine on this list, it is not inappropriate on that new list.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

"... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
their C programs." -- Robert Firth


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Ubi est Aedilis Plebis Formosanus? (Where is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus?)
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:48:16 -0000

Salve Marce Octavi

I'm not argueing that it is inappropriate. I am pointing at the way
it was done.
And I think it is time for Aedilis Plebis Formosanus to present a
report of his activity throughout this year. The Consules have
reported their achievements. The Praetors are achieving the
definition of trials in criminal cases. The Tribuni are doing their
job. I don't even refer the Censores the dimension of whose burden we
can only try to imagine.

I ask agin: WHERE ARE THE LUDI? What is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus
doing? We are in August and I have not seen a single game since
January!

Vale bene
Graecus

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Antoni Grylle,
>
> > That man dreams with the ressurrection of the Amici Dignitatis
and is now
> > trying to use the NRCR list to accomplish this goal, stabbing
Magistrates T.
> > Labienus Fortunatus and M. Cassius Iulianus on their back with
the infamous
> > dagger. What about his war flag? Guess what? It's again the old
story of
> > Lucius Marius Peregrinus, an issue already voted and decided by
the people
> > in the Comitia!
>
> The NRCR list was specifically set up to discuss those and similar
topics.
> While such discussion is rightly considered to be akin to flogging
> a defunct equine on this list, it is not inappropriate on that new
list.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
> "... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was
that,
> lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of
> their C programs." -- Robert Firth


Subject:	[novaroma] Welcome Back Senator Merullus;
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:17:43 -0400 (EDT)

Senator Merrullus;

I am very pleased to observe your return to Nova Roma. I think that I
have some small understanding of your past situation, having had my job
and company threatened twice in my second career, and carrying out the
necessity of moving my family 3000 miles to continue such career.
Considering your explanation, I cannot say that my actions would have
been any different, and in addition your past calm and careful
determinations in all of the below listed activities have certainly
indicated that you have a grasp on the necessity and practicality of
decisions which are both significant and long term.

For my part sir, your past activities as my Accensus Major, Senator, and
Censor have been of significant asisance and enlightenment for Nova
Roma, and I look forward to more of the same.

I am most pleased to welcome you back to Nova Roma, to those Sodalitas,
with whom I am associated, and to the Senate that we both serve. If you
feel that you need to be excused in any venue in which I have a say, I
offer that boon to you personnally and freely, and stand ready to assist
you in any way that you feel the need here or anywhere, as you have so
often assisted me in the past.

Welcome Home, my friend!!!!!!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Welcome Back Senator Merullus
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:05:09 -0000

Salve:

So nice to have you back again.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Ubi est Aedilis Plebis Formosanus? (Where is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus?)
From:	"VainQueur" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:22:11 +0200

Salve Antoni Grylle,

> I'm not argueing that it is inappropriate. I am pointing at the way
> it was done.
> And I think it is time for Aedilis Plebis Formosanus to present a
> report of his activity throughout this year. The Consules have
> reported their achievements. The Praetors are achieving the
> definition of trials in criminal cases. The Tribuni are doing their
> job. I don't even refer the Censores the dimension of whose burden we
> can only try to imagine.
>
> I ask agin: WHERE ARE THE LUDI? What is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus
> doing? We are in August and I have not seen a single game since
> January!
>

This is crap. You probably forgot the Cerealia / Romae Conditio games in
April. And the team of Aediles and I are working on the Ludi Romani.

Plus, you could have questioned the other Aediles, too. The reason why you
didn't do this is obvious.

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Ubi est Aedilis Plebis Formosanus? (Where is Aedilis Plebis Formosanus?)
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:19:59 -0000

Salve Draco

> Plus, you could have questioned the other Aediles, too. The reason
why you
> didn't do this is obvious.
Of course it is obvious! Who said the contrary? It is Formosanus who
criticises the job of the other magistrates so loudly! It is
Formosanus who aspires to a seat in the Senate! If I would expect a
remarkable job as Aedilis, it would be from him! Instead I see that
it is YOU who is doing a good job! Congratulations!

Vale bene et persevera in bono labore
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop Picture?
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:30:15 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

www.spielberg-dreamworks.com/gladiator/downloads.htm

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesaria

--- Julie & Lawrence Brooks <anubis@-------->
wrote:
> Pompeia, what is the url for the official Gladiator
> website? I'd like to see that.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Varia Cassia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: PompeiaAntoniaCaesar
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Wallpaper or Desktop
> Picture?
>
>
> Salve,
>
> I have a wonderful "Gladiator" desktop which I got
> through the official Gladiator website. Just type
> in
> Bona Fortuna.
>
> Pompeia Antonia Caesaria
>
>
> --- Charlie Collins <cotta@--------> wrote:
> > Salve,
> > Does anyone have any idea where there might be
> > some Roman
> > themed Desktop Pictures/Wallpaper?
> >
> > Vale,
> > Sextus Cornelius Cotta
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
> > America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
> > ICQ#: 29580250
> > AIM: LegateMajor
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant
> messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com