Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Reflections on the Peaceful Integration of Everyone
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:04:22 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Cives S.P.D.

In considering various posts by Cassius, Graecus, and
Audens, I have observed certain tendencies of thought and
feeling which I might address collectively.

Nova Roma has a definite focus: interest in ancient Rome.
It has many more or less detachable constitutent aspects:
micronationalism, the Religio Romana, political
reconstructionism, Roman fellowship, Latinity, etc. This
particular package was put together by the founders and
modified subsequently mostly by them, although not without
the influence of others.

Now, it is important to note that it is possible for people
to come here with very diverse interests and
interpretations. Some people might find, for example, the
Roman element interesting, but micronationality quirky.
Others might find the concept of micronationality
fascinating, and accept the Romanity as a suitable
background, but not a primary interest. For others the
Religio is the most important thing, while for others it is
irrelevant or even disagreeable.

Nova Roma - like that little town overlooking the Tiber
that came to include in its structure great swathes of
Europe, Africa and the Near East - has spread itself out
from a corner of America to include people from four
continents and more. At the same time it has spread through
different sociopolitical groups of society even within the
United States. The result of this growth and spread is that
Nova Roma has changed since its founders first founded it,
and is still changing.

Consider the Religio Romana. Happily (in my opinion) it is
still flourishing here, but already more than a year ago
people were leaving because they felt that the Religio
Romana had been too de-emphasised compared with its
original status. Presures had made themselves felt from
non-RR cives, people who loved many parts of Nova Roma, but
did not feel free to accept the Religio. So, there was
adaptation and change.

The founders had their own mix of ideas about Nova Roma and
its institutions. But allowing in a broader selection of
people is slowly resulting in a different consensus based
on different perceptions of what Nova Roma really is and
should be.

I have had a couple of fairly civilised and agreeable
public dialogues with M. Cassius Iulianus about our
problems of development here. Always, though, there comes a
time we he can find no more to say, but near the end of his
contributions he tends to say things that tend to want to
make me look like a foreigner out of place here. In fact, I
have been involved since I was "hooked" in December 1999
CE. And I have tended to spend at least 2 hours a day on
the average "in" Nova Roma, about its affairs, treating it
as a home, as something worthy of caring about, as a part
of my own identity. I refuse to consider myself in any
sense a foreigner here. I see, rather, on the veterans'
part a desire to limit their concept of "real Nova Romans"
to those who are very close to them in outlook and values,
perhaps even to those who are personally friendly, even
when the success in Nova Roma has long since been bringing
in people equally Roman in concern, but with differing
values.

But the rest of us who are in some cases more liberal or
interested in some different mix of aspects here are not
foreigners if we have chosen to come here and stay here.
And protesting against things we find wrong does not make
us foreign; I, like many of us, have protested in my native
macrronation on various occasions to make it better too.

The veterans have devised a relatively closed system with
relatively few members, one which can be very effective at
excluding others it wants to exclude, and which through
constitutional structure and political means ensure that it
will have effective power over most legislative
initiatives to change things. The result is that they have
dug in by virtue of their century points, lifetime senate
membership, and repeated holding of high offices, and they
are willing to use this firmly-entrenched power to keep
things in accordance with their vision for Nova Roma as
much as possible.

They are as a consequence rather resistant to the changes
in popular attitude brought about by our expansion and
natural evolution. In standing against them, they make a
gap that creates tension between them and outsiders.

But what are they defending against everyone else that
requires such elaborate political machinery and merciless
attacks on well-intentioned reformers and critics? As far
as I can see, only the elaborate machinery itself and the
exact list of privileged persons who are being protected by
it.

No one doubts that many of them have contributed much to
Nova Roma, nor that some may be very good human beings, but
I do not think that most people who find out how much power
is kept in so few hands feel it fair. And when some of the
group manipulate it to get back at critics or disliked
individuals among the general population, it looks even
worse.

I think that the immediately necessary steps to solve the
problem in a way not all that horrible for anybody would be
to strengthen the plebeian institutions and limit excessive
office-holding by anybody, especially of the top six, so
that more people can percolate upwards into the senatorial
ranks and have the chance as consuls to take legislative
initiatives. This could well be joined by a comprehensive,
detailed and enforceable civil rights bill.

Such reasonable and small changes that still left all the
senators in their seats of honour in the Senate, would make
the playing field level enough for the future devlopments
and evolution in Nova Roma to take place in a more normal
manner with fewer tensions, resentments, and
recriminations.

But I would like to stress the psychological aspects. If
the veterans think that Nova Roma can become an
intercontinental giant of a micronation and be just a
bigger version of their original vision, then they are
simply deluding themselves. There are more imaginations and
wills here now than when Nova Roma was founded, and if the
veterans want to make us feel that Nova Roma is really our
home and our Rome too, they must let us decide with them
what and how it is to be.

So far the veterans have not taken criticism well. Note
that it did not use to be criticism so much for
"oligarchism", but simply criticism for specific acts of
perceived injustice. The ineffectiveness of reasoned and
persistent protests because of the close bondings among the
veterans has now resulted in increasing examination of the
bases of power here.

This has led to still more defensiveness, and more rather
senseless attacks on the critics (along with some quite
reasonable criticism of the critics to be sure). I do not
see how this defensiveness is beneficial to our society.

I would like to see the veterans admit that:

1) We, the relative newcomers (often no longer so new) and
the critics, are here and we have a right to be here by
virtue of our concern for and involvement in this place;

2) We have our own interpretations of Romanitas and our own
visions of what we want Nova Roma to be, and these may be
diffferent from those of the veterans' and no less valid;

3) We have a right to determine together with the veterans
as citizens together the nature and future of Nova Roma and
what it means to be a Nova Roman, and our relatively
greater numbers must be taken fairly into account.

I think that these points are fair and realistic, and that
a serious-minded consideration of them by all the veterans
would perhaps yield a climate here in which there would be
less tension and a more amicable relationship with all the
rest of us.

Change is inevitable and it is not inevitably bad. Special
concentrations of power tend to attract criticism, even if
there were no wrongdoing. Everybody wants to bring his own
concerns and values into the things he cares about. These
are simple and evident things, and if we all remembered
them there would be more harmony and less enmity here.
Which is certainly something I would be in favour of.

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________


Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:01:18 -0000

Salvete quirites,

Those of us that are living our lives within the Roman
culture (outside the confinds of the internet), must have an idea of
how important it is to respect our (spiritual or otherwise) ancestors.
In doing so, I would like to know how many of us are
raising our children with these beliefs. That is, if there are any
involved. If not, how do YOU go about expressing yourself in this
wonderful culture? And, (if asked) do you openly express your love
for our culture, including our gods? I humbly await your replies.

Valete,

A. Corvus Septimius


Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma Facts - (Was: Analysis of NR II)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:19:39 EDT

Salvete,

I am splitting my answer to Draco's message up into two parts. The first part
is my reply to his "theories" about experienced Citizens.

Draco:
Ok... Few people really take an active role in NR (id est actually
_doing_things), which leaves the burden upon the shoulders of the small group
of active people. Those people, in turn, naturally hold multiple offices and
are often active in all branches of NR. This discourages some people, who
assume (and I said assume) that NR is run by a clique of people, and so they
go dormant, silent and passive.

Cassius respondit:
I am amazed how little of that matches reality. Here are nine accurate and
verifiable statements which I invite all our Citizens to check out:

1. Nova Roma's ratio of "active vs. inactive" people is no worse (and is in
fact probably better) than for most non-profit organizations.

2. Our "old guard" is in fact NOT "old". Nova Roma has only been around for
four years. No one among us, myself included, has a career older than that!
That is nothing compared to the lifelong public careers that were common
(nay, expected!) in ancient Rome, and it is nothing at all compared to the
public careers of most politically active people in any macronation you can
name.

3. The burdens of maintaining Nova Roma are in fact NOT being shouldered by
some small "old guard" minority. There are more "new" (two years or less)
people than "old" (three years or more) among our elected
magistrates/officers, both on the international and local levels.

4. Charges of "oligarchy" (keeping others away from power/influence) leveled
at our "older" (three years or more) members are in fact quite false. Every
year the number of "new" people among our officers/magistrates has grown. The
numbers speak for growth, not stasis!

5. The people you name as "oligarchs" (the three years or more Citizens)
have in fact been the group which has worked the hardest to get new people
active/involved. Encouraging involvement in things Roman is why we started
Nova Roma, after all! I specifically direct you to the directions for getting
involved that are at the very beginning of the NR website:
http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/

6. The Citizens of Nova Roma are in fact by percentage very well involved for
such a large and geographically diverse group. I believe the common ratio of
"active vs. inactive" membership in social organizations is usually 20/80, we
are in fact somewhere around 30/70 or even 40/60.

7. The number of new citizens joining Nova Roma has continued to grow with
each passing year. We have never fallen below 20 new Citizens in a month, and
we almost always greatly surpass that. We can therefore safely conclude that
people are not being scared away because some of this micronation's officers
are decrepit old dinosaurs who've had careers as long as *four whole years*
in various offices.

8. The records show that a greater number of people volunteer for Nova Roma
magistracies and offices with each passing election. We can again safely
conclude that the numbers are proof that people are not being "scared away"
because some people have stuck with Nova Roma since it's founding. If that
were so, the number of volunteers would be shrinking or remaining the same.

9. Your idea that older/experienced members of an organization "scare away"
potential new member involvement is in fact a completely unsupported (and if
I may say so, rather surreal) idea. People are *inspired* by examples of
dedication and loyalty to an organization, not repelled by them. This is why
most nations, groups and businesses go out of their way to "show off" the
stories of people who show long-term effort and commitment on behalf of them.

Cassius:
Even though Nova Roma is young and has a lot of growing to do, I hope the
statements above will help put our common situation into perspective. Nova
Roma has continued to grow, prosper, and bring in new people continually
since it's founding.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesar <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:20:08 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

I think this is a wonderful question and I hope it
invites many responses. I can only answer for myself,
what I do personally in my life to expres my love for
Rome. I am hosting bi-monthly meetings at my home for
Nova Roma open to Nova Romans and non Nova Romans
alike. Each meeting will include some form of
reenactment from Rome, along with a ritual to be
performed and Roman food as it was prepared by the
ancients. I have set up an altar in my home honoring
the Gods Ceres, Minerva, Apollo and Venus which is
visible to all who enter. I speak as much about Rome
to everyone I encounter as they care to hear. I eat
mostly Roman food and it is almost all I serve to
guests now. I read almost daily on some aspect of
Rome. I watch and purchase programs on Rome. I study
Latin loosely and erratically but am slowly learning.
I am creating artwork reflective of Rome. I read the
ML almost daily and try to keep abreast of current
affairs. I subscribe to several lists pertaining to
Rome and frequently forward posts to non Nova Roman
friends. I prefer to use my Roman name in real life
as much as I can. I have purchased and will continue
to purchase products from NR. All this activity may
seem extreme to some but it feels very natural to me.
I'm sure there are other things that I do but the most
important aspect of my endeavors is that I am
influencing those around me. Many I have spoke with
have truly enjoyed the information I have shared and
the cuisine and appreciate it. The response actually
has been very positive. I have no children but I
influence others' children when I can and there again
the reaction has been most positive. I'm sure that
there are many on this list who do more than I but
these things I do and it is a labor of love.

Valete,

Pompeia Antonia Caesaria

--- antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- wrote:
> Salvete quirites,
>
> Those of us that are living our lives
> within the Roman
> culture (outside the confinds of the internet), must
> have an idea of
> how important it is to respect our (spiritual or
> otherwise) ancestors.
> In doing so, I would like to know how
> many of us are
> raising our children with these beliefs. That is, if
> there are any
> involved. If not, how do YOU go about expressing
> yourself in this
> wonderful culture? And, (if asked) do you openly
> express your love
> for our culture, including our gods? I humbly await
> your replies.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Corvus Septimius
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] NR Desktop Picture
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:13:04 -0400

Salvete cives et amici,

Yesterday I talked of how I designed a Nova Roma desktop picture. For those
citizens interested I have uploaded it to a provincial website I maintain.
If you wish to download it just pay a quick visit to the fallowing:

http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/nrdesktop.jpg

This desktop is currently only for 800x600 monitors. If you wish a different
size just let me know and I will make it available.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:34:07 -0400

Salve,

>on 8/30/01 10:01 PM, antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- at
antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- wrote:

> Salvete quirites,
>
> Those of us that are living our lives within the Roman
> culture (outside the confinds of the internet), must have an idea of
> how important it is to respect our (spiritual or otherwise) ancestors.
> In doing so, I would like to know how many of us are
> raising our children with these beliefs. That is, if there are any
> involved. If not, how do YOU go about expressing yourself in this
> wonderful culture? And, (if asked) do you openly express your love
> for our culture, including our gods? I humbly await your replies.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Corvus Septimius

I try to the very best of my ability to live my life as a good Roman. I
strongly believe in the Roman virtues. When faced with challenging situation
I often quietly find my self asking myself the question of what would a good
Roman do in this case. I currently do not have children although when I do,
I fully intend to raise them as a good virtuous Roman would.

I do my best to express the ancient Roman culture in modern ways. I achieve
this in various ways the most popular being my websites for Nova Roma. Off
the net I try my best to introduce the Roman life style to all who are
willing. I am hardly ashamed to express my love for all things Roman and my
choice to live my life as a modern Roman. I have held discussions with close
friends and family about this nations mission and many are interested. I
hope that soon in the near future I will have real blood family and off line
friends here in Nova Roma.

Being a Nova Roman is a great life style, and one I am happy to actively
live.

Valete,

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:43:12 +1000 (EST)

Salve Septimius,

I myself try as hard as I can to keep to being Roman,
not easy when you have a erratic father who beleives
that Nova Roma might be the front for a fanatical
cult!:-))

But they do not know about how rigorously I try to
keep my life in that way. Sure, they find it a bit
strange that I keep many books on Rome, many software
programs on Rome and record many television programs
on Rome. They, for example, are not aware of the altar
that I keep to Mars in the abandoned woodshed down at
the bottom of our property (ah, I thank Fortuna that
my parents, being corporate automatons, have no real
leaning towards country life (apart from a dying
garden near the house), and so never venture out to
that area).

I hope that, when I am old enough to have this happen,
that I will be able to raise my children in Roman
tradition (though I am not running out to buy a toga
virilis for a possible future child's ritual of
manhood!;-) ).

Hope this helps,

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salvete quirites, 
 

Those of us that are living our lives within the Roman
 
culture (outside the confinds of the internet), must
have an idea of 
how important it is to respect our (spiritual or
otherwise) ancestors. 

In doing so, I would like to know how many of us are
 
raising our children with these beliefs. That is, if
there are any 
involved. If not, how do YOU go about expressing
yourself in this 
wonderful culture? And, (if asked) do you openly
express your love 
for our culture, including our gods? I humbly await
your replies. 
 
 

Valete, 
 

A. Corvus Septimius 
 

 

 
 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[novaroma] on Reflections on the Peaceful Integration of Everyone response
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 05:23:26 EDT

Q Fabius Maximus omnibus Cives S.P.D.
Well, we Vets are all standing in line to respond to Apollonius' message here
in the Forum.
I wanted to take first crack at him, and based the quietness of the list
looks like I will
be first.

To open, I am not an original member of Nova Roma to my sorrow, although I had
been searching for a place like this my whole life. I arrived in Sextilius,
the year Nova Roma
became
And now that I'm here, I don't want to see it changed for the worse. Change
is inventible Polybios makes that very clear in his treatise on government.
What sort of change do we want? Ah now that becomes the problem. And is the
crux of most of our tensions with other citizens. We want slow change. We
want to refine the reconstruction, as scholars and business professionals
join us. But we don't want to do it quickly, because therein lies disaster.
We saw that demonstrated convincingly in June of 1999.

With that in mind, let us consider Apollonius comments:

"Nova Roma has a definite focus: interest in ancient Rome.
It has many more or less detachable constituent aspects:
micronationalism, the Religio Romana, political
reconstructionism, Roman fellowship, Latinity, etc. This
particular package was put together by the founders and
modified subsequently mostly by them, although not without
the influence of others."

Well, I'd answer we are unique in our micronationhood. This is what raises
us above the SCA. Ancient Vines, Ancient States. And I don't consider our
aspects to be detachable
Without the micronation, Roman Religio, State reconstruction, THERE IS NO
NOVA ROMA.

"Nova Roma - like that little town overlooking the Tiber
that came to include in its structure great swathes of
Europe, Africa and the Near East - has spread itself out
from a corner of America to include people from four
continents and more. At the same time it has spread through
different sociopolitical groups of society even within the
United States. The result of this growth and spread is that
Nova Roma has changed since its founders first founded it,
and is still changing."

As Polybios points out. All government undergoes changes.
The fact it has spread so rapidly shows, least to me, how powerful a tug Rome
is, to so
many people.
Pray continue.

"Consider the Religio Romana. Happily (in my opinion) it is
still flourishing here, but already more than a year ago
people were leaving because they felt that the Religio
Romana had been too de-emphasised compared with its
original status. Pressures had made themselves felt from
non-RR cives, people who loved many parts of Nova Roma, but
did not feel free to accept the Religio. So, there was
adaptation and change."

Change? What change? We don't prosecute Christians? What has changed?
We knew hardly anything about the Religio when we all started. Research had
to be carried
out. You are finally beginning to see those results after almost 4 years.
Those people
who left were in a hurry, did not know better and were not interested in
waiting for the fruit of everybody's labor. You can't resuscitate a buried
Religio in one night. Nay it will take years, and much more hard work.

"The founders had their own mix of ideas about Nova Roma and
its institutions. But allowing in a broader selection of
people is slowly resulting in a different consensus based
on different perceptions of what Nova Roma really is and
should be."

Which is to be expected. And we are seeing the results of this today.

"I have had a couple of fairly civilized and agreeable
public dialogues with M. Cassius Iulianus about our
problems of development here. Always, though, there comes a
time we he can find no more to say, but near the end of his
contributions he tends to say things that tend to want to
make me look like a foreigner out of place here. In fact, I
have been involved since I was "hooked" in December 1999
CE. And I have tended to spend at least 2 hours a day on
the average "in" Nova Roma, about its affairs, treating it
as a home, as something worthy of caring about, as a part
of my own identity. I refuse to consider myself in any
sense a foreigner here. I see, rather, on the veterans'
part a desire to limit their concept of "real Nova Romans"
to those who are very close to them in outlook and values,
perhaps even to those who are personally friendly, even
when the success in Nova Roma has long since been bringing
in people equally Roman in concern, but with differing
values."

Just two hours a day Apollonius? You are just visiting right?
We Vets are not limiting the concept, we are limiting your concept of the
concept.
That is quite a difference.

"But the rest of us who are in some cases more liberal or
interested in some different mix of aspects here are not
foreigners if we have chosen to come here and stay here.
And protesting against things we find wrong does not make
us foreign; I, like many of us, have protested in my native
macrronation on various occasions to make it better too."

Perhaps you should spend more time on those problems
then what you see as ours. Nova Roma is a big tent, and all
are welcome to shelter under it, but sacrifices will have to be made.
If citizens are not willing to make those, then they really don't belong
here now, do they? Love of Rome is not enough, to bring our design to
completion. It is going to take more.

"The veterans have devised a relatively closed system with
relatively few members, one which can be very effective at
excluding others it wants to exclude, and which through
constitutional structure and political means ensure that it
will have effective power over most legislative
initiatives to change things. The result is that they have
dug in by virtue of their century points, lifetime senate
membership, and repeated holding of high offices, and they
are willing to use this firmly-entrenched power to keep
things in accordance with their vision for Nova Roma as
much as possible."

Hmmm , sounds like Livius description of the early Roman Republic to me.
Have you ever given any thought that may be the reason that
Early Rome endured after the collapse of the monarchy?
A conservative Senate, guiding the people, waging wars when needed,
mandating trade, telling the people what laws to vote for.
No quick changes. Everything slow and deliberate.
No, I'll bet you haven't.

"They are as a consequence rather resistant to the changes
in popular attitude brought about by our expansion and
natural evolution. In standing against them, they make a
gap that creates tension between them and outsiders. "

What tension? The only tension I see is that manufactured by you
when you try and tell the People, that they are oppressed by us veteran
Oligarchs.

"But what are they defending against everyone else that
requires such elaborate political machinery and merciless
attacks on well-intentioned reformers and critics? As far
as I can see, only the elaborate machinery itself and the
exact list of privileged persons who are being protected by
it."

If I may, can I use an example. I have a business. And while I'm
doing so-so with it, you come to me and say, "look you had three
years and gee you've done nothing but upset your workers.
I want to give them more money to make them happy."
I say "Will this help increase my profit? "
"No, but I'll be pleased, and they'll be happy."
Do you really think I'm going to turn my company over to you?

"No one doubts that many of them have contributed much to
Nova Roma, nor that some may be very good human beings, but
I do not think that most people who find out how much power
is kept in so few hands feel it fair. And when some of the
group manipulate it to get back at critics or disliked
individuals among the general population, it looks even
worse."

Next thing you will be saying is "Absolute power corrupts"

"I think that the immediately necessary steps to solve the
problem in a way not all that horrible for anybody would be
to strengthen the plebeian institutions and limit excessive
office-holding by anybody, especially of the top six, so
that more people can percolate upwards into the senatorial
ranks and have the chance as consuls to take legislative
initiatives. This could well be joined by a comprehensive,
detailed and enforceable civil rights bill."

Now we have rules limiting the Consules to two terms in 5 years no
consecutive term
allowed. That follows Roman procedure. We have rules saying Praetors must
take a year off between terms. We have a "way of honor" that maps out the
offices one must serve to advance to the top spot.
I think we are doing quite fine, thank you.

"Such reasonable and small changes that still left all the
senators in their seats of honour in the Senate, would make
the playing field level enough for the future developments
and evolution in Nova Roma to take place in a more normal
manner with fewer tensions, resentments, and
recriminations."

Again all manufactured by you.

"But I would like to stress the psychological aspects."
This ought to be good

"If the veterans think that Nova Roma can become an
intercontinental giant of a micronation and be just a
bigger version of their original vision, then they are
simply deluding themselves. There are more imaginations and
wills here now than when Nova Roma was founded, and if the
veterans want to make us feel that Nova Roma is really our
home and our Rome too, they must let us decide with them
what and how it is to be."

If you please. We have 20-30 memberships coming in weekly, and
if you take away the 100 discontent citizens who want to tear us down,
we will replace our losses in 6 weeks, tops. And as it was in Rome, we hold
a huge
manpower advantage, my Greek friend. Look around you. How many citizens
follow
you? 6, 10 maybe 25.

"So far the veterans have not taken criticism well. Note
that it did not use to be criticism so much for
"oligarchism", but simply criticism for specific acts of
perceived injustice. The ineffectiveness of reasoned and
persistent protests because of the close bondings among the
veterans has now resulted in increasing examination of the
bases of power here."

Well, gee, Apollonius you cut me to the quick. If I had any power here
your raggedy ass would be on an island, banished for life. Not because you
criticize me, but because of all the time I have wasted on defending "our
power bases"
Nova Roma from the likes of you. I can't get anything done. My law code
languishes,
my research stagnates, all because of you. So if I had the "power" of which
you speak
my exterordinaii would be arresting you in the forum while we speak.
<aside>
"What's that? no exterordinaii? OK, how about my lictors? I'll scourge him.
Bring forth my lictors with their fasces. Huh? Oh, my one lictor is on a set
somewhere in Hollywood? Curse it! Looks the miscreant gets away with
annoying me.
So where were we? Oh yes. Power...

"I would like to see the veterans admit that:

1) We, the relative newcomers (often no longer so new) and
the critics, are here and we have a right to be here by
virtue of our concern for and involvement in this place;"

You do. The fact you revere Rome allows you to be here. But
you are here to aid us in the reconstruction, not to cause us problems.

"2) We have our own interpretations of Romanitas and our own
visions of what we want Nova Roma to be, and these may be
diffferent from those of the veterans' and no less valid;"

Disagree. Your newness automatically does not make you a NR expert,
anymore then a grizzled old vet like Aelius was. He never got what we were
attempting to do, just like you.

"3) We have a right to determine together with the veterans
as citizens together the nature and future of Nova Roma and
what it means to be a Nova Roman, and our relatively
greater numbers must be taken fairly into account."

You have a vote in the Comitia like every citizen here in
Rome. So your "great numbers" are taken in account in
the vote.

"I think that these points are fair and realistic, and that
a serious-minded consideration of them by all the veterans
would perhaps yield a climate here in which there would be
less tension and a more amicable relationship with all the
rest of us."

Who are "us" Villius, and the Family Apolonii? And we have a friendly
atmosphere here. Till someone decides he knows more about our design
then the designers themselves. Then things get a mite moody. Like all good
Romans we are ready to struggle for what we believe in. And we believe in a
Roman reconstruction, not a modern one with Roman aspects "attached."

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] "Mock Trial" Still accepting Iudices
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 05:47:33 EDT

Salvete

I'm still accepting Iudices for the mock trial next
week. You will have to put in an hour a day
that's all.
If you are interested in furthering your knowledge,
please join us.
E mail me privately before midnight Friday PDT.

Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma Facts - (Was: Analysis of NR II)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:08:45 +0200

S. Apollonius Draco M. Cassio Iuliano Consuli SPD,

> I am splitting my answer to Draco's message up into two parts. The first
part
> is my reply to his "theories" about experienced Citizens.
>

'kay.

>
> Draco:
> Ok... Few people really take an active role in NR (id est actually
> _doing_things), which leaves the burden upon the shoulders of the small
group
> of active people. Those people, in turn, naturally hold multiple offices
and
> are often active in all branches of NR. This discourages some people, who
> assume (and I said assume) that NR is run by a clique of people, and so
they
> go dormant, silent and passive.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> I am amazed how little of that matches reality. Here are nine accurate and
> verifiable statements which I invite all our Citizens to check out:
>
> 1. Nova Roma's ratio of "active vs. inactive" people is no worse (and is
in
> fact probably better) than for most non-profit organizations.
>

True. That is because the same situation usually exists in other
organizations, too.

> 2. Our "old guard" is in fact NOT "old". Nova Roma has only been around
for
> four years. No one among us, myself included, has a career older than
that!
> That is nothing compared to the lifelong public careers that were common
> (nay, expected!) in ancient Rome, and it is nothing at all compared to
the
> public careers of most politically active people in any macronation you
can
> name.
>

"Old garde" is a relative term, and four years is quite a long time in
internet time. A macronational career in politics lasts longer because of
the relative sloth, while that same problem does not exist here. Here, you
can sit at home in front of your computer and type a few hours away, while
in a macronation you'd have to travel to a building and "waste" your time on
giving handshakes, asking for paroles and other formal or social procedures.

> 3. The burdens of maintaining Nova Roma are in fact NOT being shouldered
by
> some small "old guard" minority. There are more "new" (two years or less)
> people than "old" (three years or more) among our elected
> magistrates/officers, both on the international and local levels.
>

I was talking about the actual burdens. Not about positions that really
don't require much, such as Aedilis or Quaestor. Needed as they may be,
right now those positions are not the most important ones. On a nitpicking
note, local magistrates aren't even elected. As you know, only the lower
magistracies are being occupied by
"newcomers". This could provide for these people's further growth if they
want to climb up the ladder, but will they stand a decent chance? I hope so.

> 4. Charges of "oligarchy" (keeping others away from power/influence)
leveled
> at our "older" (three years or more) members are in fact quite false.
Every
> year the number of "new" people among our officers/magistrates has grown.
The
> numbers speak for growth, not stasis!
>

I have never called you an oligarch, as I said before. I wish you weren't
putting those words in my mouth. I agree I should have modified my words,
and concede the fact that there _is_ growth. But the growth is slow, and
opposition to those who are of a totally different opinion than the ones in
power has often been ruthless. I do not want to rehash the failed AD
adventure here, but the mass hysteria showed that many people in the key
positions at that time were very reluctant to leave their position to people
who had largely different opinions. There is no stasis in people, but I fear
there seems to be a stasis in opinion. But I concede this is a totally
different thing, and that I'm on shady terrain again, where I should not be.

> 5. The people you name as "oligarchs" (the three years or more Citizens)
> have in fact been the group which has worked the hardest to get new people
> active/involved. Encouraging involvement in things Roman is why we started
> Nova Roma, after all! I specifically direct you to the directions for
getting
> involved that are at the very beginning of the NR website:
> http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/
>

It is beyond doubt that NR encourages activity. But look at the Sodalitates
and their leaders; no one who's in charge of a Sodalitas is "newer" than a
year.

> 6. The Citizens of Nova Roma are in fact by percentage very well involved
for
> such a large and geographically diverse group. I believe the common ratio
of
> "active vs. inactive" membership in social organizations is usually 20/80,
we
> are in fact somewhere around 30/70 or even 40/60.
>

40% may be subscribed to the mailing list, but only about 30% votes, if
you're lucky. About 20% bothers to speak from time to time, and about 5 to
10% is actually active in doing things other than talking. Again, this is
not a personal attack I'm flinging at you, as this situation exists in many
organizations, and is fairly natural.

> 7. The number of new citizens joining Nova Roma has continued to grow with
> each passing year. We have never fallen below 20 new Citizens in a month,
and
> we almost always greatly surpass that. We can therefore safely conclude
that
> people are not being scared away because some of this micronation's
officers
> are decrepit old dinosaurs who've had careers as long as *four whole
years*
> in various offices.
>

Most of these citizens join at a whim, or are only briefly interested, then
wandering off to more urgent business. Some check out the ML first, or do
check out the website carefully, but most of them do not. Bravo to those who
actually get involved and active.

> 8. The records show that a greater number of people volunteer for Nova
Roma
> magistracies and offices with each passing election. We can again safely
> conclude that the numbers are proof that people are not being "scared
away"
> because some people have stuck with Nova Roma since it's founding. If
that
> were so, the number of volunteers would be shrinking or remaining the
same.
>

I agree.

> 9. Your idea that older/experienced members of an organization "scare
away"
> potential new member involvement is in fact a completely unsupported (and
if
> I may say so, rather surreal) idea. People are *inspired* by examples of
> dedication and loyalty to an organization, not repelled by them. This is
why
> most nations, groups and businesses go out of their way to "show off" the
> stories of people who show long-term effort and commitment on behalf of
them.
>

Of course people are inspired by those great examples, and I won't easily
dismiss what those "dinosaurs" have done for NR! But it's the same story
each time again; when some complain that it's always the same people, or the
people with the same opinion, who hold the key positions, they get the reply
that they should try and run themselves. They do, and the more they disagree
with their opponents, the more opposition they get, sometimes viciously so.
Mind you, this is not something I accuse you of, but a general situation.

> Cassius:
> Even though Nova Roma is young and has a lot of growing to do, I hope the
> statements above will help put our common situation into perspective. Nova
> Roma has continued to grow, prosper, and bring in new people continually
> since it's founding.

I admit that my original idea was too simple, and I basically and
theoretically agree with you on most points.

Vale bene,
S. Apollonius Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Absolute power....
From:	"J. Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:37:10 +0200

Salve, O Praetor,

Just wanted to make a few comments.

(snipped)

> "No one doubts that many of them have contributed much to
> Nova Roma, nor that some may be very good human beings, but
> I do not think that most people who find out how much power
> is kept in so few hands feel it fair. And when some of the
> group manipulate it to get back at critics or disliked
> individuals among the general population, it looks even
> worse."
>
> Next thing you will be saying is "Absolute power corrupts"
>

It does. 99% of all absolute leaders are corrupt.

> "Such reasonable and small changes that still left all the
> senators in their seats of honour in the Senate, would make
> the playing field level enough for the future developments
> and evolution in Nova Roma to take place in a more normal
> manner with fewer tensions, resentments, and
> recriminations."
>
> Again all manufactured by you.

A denial policy. It takes two to tango; holding only Formosanus responsible
for all that is (allegedly) wrong in NR is a mistake.

> "If the veterans think that Nova Roma can become an
> intercontinental giant of a micronation and be just a
> bigger version of their original vision, then they are
> simply deluding themselves. There are more imaginations and
> wills here now than when Nova Roma was founded, and if the
> veterans want to make us feel that Nova Roma is really our
> home and our Rome too, they must let us decide with them
> what and how it is to be."
>
> If you please. We have 20-30 memberships coming in weekly, and
> if you take away the 100 discontent citizens who want to tear us down
> ... (snipped)

"Tearing us down" is a paranoid statement, and it shows that you don't
really understand what discontentment means. It is not a synonym of
destruction. By saying this, polarization will only increase.

> "So far the veterans have not taken criticism well. Note
> that it did not use to be criticism so much for
> "oligarchism", but simply criticism for specific acts of
> perceived injustice. The ineffectiveness of reasoned and
> persistent protests because of the close bondings among the
> veterans has now resulted in increasing examination of the
> bases of power here."
>
> Well, gee, Apollonius you cut me to the quick. If I had any power here
> your raggedy ass would be on an island, banished for life.

How extremely nice and polite. Do you always deal with opposition in this
way? Well, if you say things like that, it should not surprise you that
people think you are - dare I say it - rightist.

> "I think that these points are fair and realistic, and that
> a serious-minded consideration of them by all the veterans
> would perhaps yield a climate here in which there would be
> less tension and a more amicable relationship with all the
> rest of us."
>
> Who are "us" Villius, and the Family Apolonii? And we have a friendly
> atmosphere here. Till someone decides he knows more about our design
> then the designers themselves. Then things get a mite moody. Like all
good
> Romans we are ready to struggle for what we believe in. And we believe in
a
> Roman reconstruction, not a modern one with Roman aspects "attached."

Formosanus does not hold the orthodox interpretation of Romanitas, and
neither do you.

Vale bene,
S. Apollonius Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Reflections on the Peaceful Integration of Everyone
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:13:08 -0000

Salve Formosane

I will start my answer by stating that I have nothing against you as
a person, and if your curriculum is true in what concerns your
defense of human rights in the macronational context, then you even
have my admiration for that.
Nevertheless, no matter how great your skill may be in that field, I
fear that it is not of much use in the context of Nova Roma. Nova
Roma feeds on its voluntary manpower. Citizens are here voluntarily,
magistrates work voluntarily. The fact that the number of citizens
keeps growing and that work keeps being done can only show that
people are happy to be and work in Nova Roma.

Nova Roma will of course evolve, but this evolution will meet
practical needs, not those needs created by demagoges. The current
growth rate of Nova Roma both in numbers and in quality speaks for
itself to say that Nova Roma currently has the system it needs. About
the future we don't know. Lets wait and see.

Formosane we are in the begining. The greatest need of Nova Roma is
WORK. This is the best contribute you can give. It is with your work
that you can earn the esteem of the citizens and your fellow
magistrates, not following your passions in interminable discussions
in the mailing lists.

Magnae nationes stoicae crescent, epicureae abolescent!
(Great nations rise stoic and die epicurean!)

... And ancient Rome is a fine example.

The people have elected you as Aedilis Plebis because they expected
you to do something in that field. People expected you to implement
interesting means of Roman-inspired entertainment which everyone
could enjoy, promoting more personal links between the citizens,
contributing to Romanitas, and of course attracting more people to
Nova Roma. Like this you are erring the expectations of the people.

But there is still time for you to recognise your error and to change
your approach towards Nova Roma, resuming your duty as magistrate of
the Respublica. Come and join us spending our time to build something
visible and great... For the building will be done anyway... It's
just a question of having your signature instead of a 'damnatio
memoriae'.

Vale bene in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:22:26 US/Central

Salve Antoni Corve et salvete omnes

> Those of us that are living our lives within the Roman
> culture (outside the confinds of the internet), must have an idea of
> how important it is to respect our (spiritual or otherwise) ancestors.
> In doing so, I would like to know how many of us are
> raising our children with these beliefs. That is, if there are any
> involved. If not, how do YOU go about expressing yourself in this
> wonderful culture? And, (if asked) do you openly express your love
> for our culture, including our gods? I humbly await your replies.

I am raising my daughter in a fashion which I see as Nova Roman. I can't raise
her as a Roman, and, considering the ancient views about women, I really
wouldn't want to. That said, I maintain a lararium at which I sacrifice
incense to the Lares, Penates, manes of my ancestors, our patron Gods, and the
genius locus of my house on a fairly regular basis. Each year, we also perform
a special ritual in honor of Ianus. I include my daughter in these rites,
allowing her to take part as she desires (she is only two years old, after
all). I am attempting to amass photographs and other images of my and my
wife's ancestors to include in the cabinet we use to store our lararium, as a
modern version of imagines. Eventually, I want to collect what information I
can to attach stories to those images and teach my daughter about her family's
history.

Several of her favorite books are about ancient Rome, filled with some very
nice pictures of Roman antiquities and the Romans themselves. I am
unfortunately not half so proficient with Latin as I like, so I can't really
help her become a native speaker of the language. However, as I show her new
things and teach her words, I mix English and Latin. "Yes, Julia, that's a
tree. Arbor est." We are, in many ways, learning together.

Additionally, as she gets older, I shall endeavor to instill in her the primary
ethics of Stoicism as my parents did for me, and I will expose her to other
philosophies along the way. All of the Romans I admire were men of deep
thought, and I want to impress upon my daughter the importance of exercising
one's intellect. For me, this is an integral part of Romanitas.

As for expressing my own Romanitas, I do that simply by existing day to day as
a pagan Stoic. The Stoicism of M Aurelius and Seneca is quintessentially
Roman, and it is usually to them that I turn when I need some advice. I am a
modern citizen of the USA, but much of my thought remains grounded in the
worldview of the ancients.

And, finally, do I openly express my love for our culture and Gods? I do so,
but situationally. At my current place of work, I am surrounded by fairly
devout Christians. Therefore, in the interest of a peaceful work environment,
I choose not to make an issue of my religion while there. I do, however, make
no secret of my chosen philosophy and my love of the ancient world. Outside of
work, well, my wife once turned a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses away from our
door, saying, "I will not tolerate any blasphemy against the Gods of Rome in
this house!"

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Nova Roma Facts
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:51:41 EDT

Salvete,

I am headed out to vacation soon, and have only time to answer Draco's reply
to this before leaving....

> 1. Nova Roma's ratio of "active vs. inactive" people is no worse (and is in
fact probably better) than for most non-profit organizations.

>>Draco:
>True. That is because the same situation usually exists in other
organizations, too.

Cassius:
Most organizations have a group of dedicated "core" people that can always be
counted on to volunteer their time and effort. The difference is that in most
groups they are highly valued for their dedication. You, on the other hand,
seem to consider them the greatest problem to our community and seem to want
them removed. This is, in my opinion, a completely bizarre view - most
especially since those people in Nova Roma do everything possible to
encourage others to be active and involved as well.

> >2. Our "old guard" is in fact NOT "old." Nova Roma has only been around
for four years. No one among us, myself included, has a career older than
that! That is nothing compared to the lifelong public careers that were
common (nay, expected!) in ancient Rome, and it is nothing at all compared
to the public careers of most politically active people in any macronation
you can name.

>>Draco:
"Old garde" is a relative term, and four years is quite a long time in
Internet time.

Cassius:
"Internet time?!?" You've got to be joking! I guess we'll be measuring the
careers of our magistrates, officers and Citizens in *Dog Years* next? Wait.
Draco, that would mean you've been posting a constant litany of complaints
and dissatisfaction for *fourteen years* now. Isn't it time *you* retired?

>>Draco:
>A macronational career in politics lasts longer because of the relative
sloth, while that same problem does not exist here. Here, you can sit at home
in front of your computer and type a few hours away, while in a macronation
you'd have to travel to a building and "waste" your time on giving
handshakes, asking for paroles and other formal or social procedures.

Cassius:
I don't mean to be derisive of your feelings, Draco, but that's just plain
silly. If anything, an "Internet" career is only a fraction as demanding as a
"real world" career. Logically it would *extend* the useful careers of our
Citizens rather than shorten them! Think of it. I'm sitting at a comfy desk
replying to you... and I can leave the task and come back to it when it is
convenient. Hardly the sort of thing that leaves a person ready for
"retirement" after a few months!

> 3. The burdens of maintaining Nova Roma are in fact NOT being shouldered
by some small "old guard" minority. There are more "new" (two years or less)
people than "old" (three years or more) among our elected
magistrates/officers, both on the international and local levels.

>>Draco:
>>I was talking about the actual burdens. Not about positions that really
don't require much, such as Aedilis or Quaestor. Needed as they may be, right
now those positions are not the most important ones. On a nitpicking note,
local magistrates aren't even elected. As you know, only the lower
magistracies are being occupied by"newcomers".

Cassius:
So in once sentence, Nova Roma's "Internet time" is so difficult that a
person should be retire after only a few months, and in the next sentence,
the positions in NR really don't require much work? You can't have it both
ways, Draco.

As far as new people occupying "lower" magistracies and offices, don't you
think that's the way the rest of the world does things? It amuses me
complain that Nova Roma doesn't do things the "modern" way, and then complain
about policies that we share with everyone else *too*. Should someone be able
to join Nova Roma one month, and be Consul the next? Perhaps that's what you
think, but that isn't the way groups, businesses or nations work in the "real
world." People start out with basic positions in which they can gain
experience, confidence and a reputation for good work, and then move on to
positions of greater responsibility.

>>Draco:
>This could provide for these people's further growth if they want to climb
up the ladder, but will they stand a decent chance? I hope so.

Cassius:
The "numbers" show that it IS so. Each year more new people move into higher
positions. That is how most organizations/nations function, and that is how
Nova Roma works as well.

> 4. Charges of "oligarchy" (keeping others away from power/influence)
leveled at our "older" (three years or more) members are in fact quite
false. Every year the number of "new" people among our officers/magistrates
has grown. The numbers speak for growth, not stasis!

Draco:
I have never called you an oligarch, as I said before. I wish you weren't
putting those words in my mouth.

Cassius:
I did not say you had called me an oligarch directly. I merely reference the
use of the word *generally* in your posts and (and in those of Formosanus).

>Draco:
> I agree I should have modified my words, and concede the fact that there
_is_ growth. But the growth is slow,

Cassius:
As opposed to WHAT? Nova Roma has grown faster than any historical
organization that I have ever seen.

>>Draco:
>>and opposition to those who are of a totally different opinion than the
ones in power has often been ruthless. I do not want to rehash the failed AD
adventure here, but the mass hysteria showed that many people in the key
positions at that time were very reluctant to leave their position to people
who had largely different opinions.

Cassius:
Different opinions are most often treated with courtesy and respect here. The
things that have received "harsh" treatment have been behavior that gets
harsh treatment *anywhere*.

If you:

A. Join an organization, then turn around and declare that you disagree with
nearly all of it's purpose, mission, organization, and beliefs,

B: Declare that your sole purpose is to change everything from the ground up,
expressly against the desires of a majority of the membership, and

C: Then actively work to remove the people who have built and/or are running
the organization so that you can change everything to suit your own desires,

You're going to encounter a huge amount of opposition, both from the officers
of that organization, and from a majority of the membership.

>>Draco:
>>There is no stasis in people, but I fear there seems to be a stasis in
opinion. But I concede this is a totally different thing, and that I'm on
shady terrain again, where I should not be.

Cassius:
New ideas have always been welcome here. Demands to completely rebuild Nova
Roma with completely different structure, goals and values have been less
welcome. I hate to say this, but people join an organization because they
agree with it and want to continue it's goals, not so that they can destroy
it and turn it into something different.

5. The people you name as "oligarchs" (the three years or more Citizens)
have in fact been the group which has worked the hardest to get new people
active/involved. Encouraging involvement in things Roman is why we started>
Nova Roma, after all! I specifically direct you to the directions forgetting>
involved that are at the very beginning of the NR website:> <A HREF="http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/">
http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/</A>

>Draco:
>It is beyond doubt that NR encourages activity. But look at the Sodalitates
and their leaders; no one who's in charge of a Sodalitas is "newer" than a
year.

Cassius:
As far as I am aware there is nothing barring "new" Citizens from leading a
Sodalitas, or even forming a new Sodalitas! If there are no "new" Citizens in
charge of a Sodalitas at the moment it would not be Nova Roma's fault in any
case. The internal offices of the various Sodalitas are set by the
memberships themselves. If you feel you have a serious complaint in this
you'll have to take it to each Sodalitas individually and talk it over with
the Citizens there.

6. The Citizens of Nova Roma are in fact by percentage very well involved
for such a large and geographically diverse group. I believe the common ratio
of "active vs. inactive" membership in social organizations is usually 20/80,
we are in fact somewhere around 30/70 or even 40/60.

Draco:
:40% may be subscribed to the mailing list,

Cassius:
Just about 50% are subscribed to the main list, and my guess is that at least
another 10 to 15% are subscribed to OTHER lists, including the NR Announce
list, the Religio Romana list, and the various Provincial lists.

>>Draco:
>>but only about 30% votes, if you're lucky.

Cassius:
About the average for most macronations... but even so I believe *everyone*
is working harder to bring that total up.

Draco:
About 20% bothers to speak from time to time, and about 5 to10% is actually
active in doing things other than talking.

Cassius:
Personally, I believe the percentages are somewhat higher than that, but
we're now getting into numbers that are difficult to prove for certain. The
one I dispute is your saying that only 5 to 10 percent do more than talk. A
LOT of activity goes on at the local level, and "off the main list." Perhaps
I just see more of this than you do since it is entirely possible that I hear
from more people.

>>Draco:
>>Again, this is not a personal attack I'm flinging at you, as this situation
exists in many organizations, and is fairly natural.

Cassius:
I don't consider it an attack at all. However, if you agree that Nova Roma's
situation is at least "average" (natural) in comparison with that of other
organizations, why the constant insinuations that things here are abnormally
bad?

7. The number of new citizens joining Nova Roma has continued to grow with
each passing year. We have never fallen below 20 new Citizens in a month, and
we almost always greatly surpass that. We can therefore safely conclude that
people are not being scared away because some of this micronation's officers
are decrepit old dinosaurs who've had careers as long as *four whole years*
in various offices.

>>Draco:
>>Most of these citizens join at a whim, or are only briefly interested, then
wandering off to more urgent business. Some check out the ML first, or do
check out the website carefully, but most of them do not. Bravo to those who
actually get involved and active.

Cassius:
I don't think that most folks join "on a whim," but do so rather out of an
interest in things Roman. However, none of that has much to do with your
charge that people are "scared away" by seeing other Citizens staying
involved long term.

> 8. The records show that a greater number of people volunteer for Nova Roma
magistracies and offices with each passing election. We can again safely
conclude that the numbers are proof that people are not being "scared away"
because some people have stuck with Nova Roma since it's founding. If that
were so, the number of volunteers would be shrinking or remaining the same.

>>Draco:
>>I agree.

Cassius:
If you DID agree, Draco, you would not have called for our long term Citizens
to resign "en masse" so that their presence doesn't discourage "new"
Citizens.

> 9. Your idea that older/experienced members of an organization "scare away">
potential new member involvement is in fact a completely unsupported (and if
I may say so, rather surreal) idea. People are *inspired* by examples of
dedication and loyalty to an organization, not repelled by them. This is why
most nations, groups and businesses go out of their way to "show off" the
stories of people who show long-term effort and commitment on behalf of them.

>>Draco:
>Of course people are inspired by those great examples, and I won't easily
dismiss what those "dinosaurs" have done for NR!

Cassius:
No, you just want them to resign after their "too long" three or four year
careers, and leave you in peace to completely disassemble Nova Roma and
rebuild it in accord with your personal ideas.

>>Draco:
>>But it's the same story each time again; when some complain that it's
always the same people, or the people with the same opinion, who hold the key
positions, they get the reply that they should try and run themselves.

Cassius:
And so they should! You yourself have not contested the facts that new folks
are indeed encouraged to participate actively, and that more "new" Citizens
gain offices each year.

Draco:
They do, and the more they disagree with their opponents, the more opposition
they get, sometimes viciously so. Mind you, this is not something I accuse
you of, but a general situation.

Cassius:
You are quite correct. The more some folks show that they disagree with
everything that Nova Roma stands for, the more opposition they face. You
don't have to "accuse" me of doing this, I will happily proclaim it : The
more someone shows that they dislike everything about Nova Roma, and the more
they declare their intent to destroy it and rebuild it as something
completely foreign, the more I will fight them. I call on all other Citizens
who have come here because they are in accord with what Nova Roma has been
intended to be since the founding to do the same.

Not that I am saying that Nova Roma is not open to "new" ideas. I am
certainly NOT saying that Nova Roma does not tolerate other points of view!
What I AM saying is that if someone continues to struggle against 90% of what
Nova Roma is and believes because they think it is "wrong," they should not
be here. They would be much better off forming their own organization in
accord with their own inner beliefs.

I do NOT advocate a "love it or leave it" policy. I DO advocate a policy of
tolerance on all sides. Constant, nay, *daily* complaints about the same
things over and over again, even against official votes by the other
Citizens, is not tolerance. It is deliberate antisocial agitation.

> Cassius:> Even though Nova Roma is young and has a lot of growing to do, I
hope the statements above will help put our common situation into
perspective. Nova Roma has continued to grow, prosper, and bring in new
people continually since it's founding.

>>Draco:
>>I admit that my original idea was too simple, and I basically and
theoretically agree with you on most points.

Cassius:
Again, I wish we WERE in accord with these things. My guess, however, is that
you'll still be raising the very same issues next week, and next month, as if
they were still brand new and had never been challenged.

My apologies if I have been too harsh with you here, Draco. I do in fact like
and respect you on an individual level... and am in fact writing fast since I
will be leaving on vacation in just a few hours.

Hopefully when I return there can be some reasonable dialogue on how ALL
Citizens, both "old" and "new" can be more involved and productive. As I've
said there is an almost unlimited amount of room in Nova Roma... there are
only a thousand of us to take up a culture once shared by a few *million*
people. Every one of us could (and probably can) have an official job and
title, and it'd still be just a drop in the bucket compared to the legacy
we're trying to revive.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Colonia
From:	Jeff Smith <dalmaticus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 07:57:30 -0700 (PDT)

http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Colonia.html

This is some interesting commentary and text on Roman
Colonia.

Dalmaticus

=====
JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies out of the trunk." -- anonymous

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Nova Roma Facts
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:11:22 +0200

Salve et salvete,

Instead of rehashing the whole mail, I'll only respond to a few key points
made, and hope that you will receive this when you're back (enjoy your
holidays, by the way!).

(snipped)

> Cassius:
> I did not say you had called me an oligarch directly. I merely reference
the
> use of the word *generally* in your posts and (and in those of
Formosanus).
>

DRACO: I almost never used the word.

(snipped)

> Cassius:
> Different opinions are most often treated with courtesy and respect here.
The
> things that have received "harsh" treatment have been behavior that gets
> harsh treatment *anywhere*.
>
> If you:
>
> A. Join an organization, then turn around and declare that you disagree
with
> nearly all of it's purpose, mission, organization, and beliefs,
>

DRACO: But I do not. I like the Religio, I am in agreement with its mission
and purpose. I do not like some bits of the organization, that's all.

> B: Declare that your sole purpose is to change everything from the ground
up,
> expressly against the desires of a majority of the membership, and
>
> C: Then actively work to remove the people who have built and/or are
running
> the organization so that you can change everything to suit your own
desires,
>
> You're going to encounter a huge amount of opposition, both from the
officers
> of that organization, and from a majority of the membership.
>

DRACO: I think here you make a mistake. I never said I wanted to remove
everyone with experience from all offices. I said that they have a finger in
every pie, and that they might leave some pies alone. Simple as that.

I further think that claiming I want to destroy NR, and then totally rebuild
it according to my own vision, is wrong. Where do you get that idea? Where
have I implied this?

(snipped)

> Cassius:
> Again, I wish we WERE in accord with these things. My guess, however, is
that
> you'll still be raising the very same issues next week, and next month, as
if
> they were still brand new and had never been challenged.
>

DRACO: LoL. Perhaps. It reminds me of the old joke:
"Dad, can I have an ice cream?"
"No, you can't."
"Why are you giving me the same answer everytime?"
"Because you always ask the same question."

This example could apply to you as well as me.

> My apologies if I have been too harsh with you here, Draco. I do in fact
like
> and respect you on an individual level... and am in fact writing fast
since I
> will be leaving on vacation in just a few hours.
>

DRACO: I understand, and feel not offended. I only wish that you wouldn't be
so convinced that I and some of my friends are trying to "destroy NR". That
is a very far fetch, and has led to unnecessary and counterproductive mass
hysteria in the past.

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Chronic complainers (was Re: Reflections on...)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:21:49 -0400

Salvete,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:04 PM
>
> I would like to see the veterans admit that:
>
> 1) We, the relative newcomers (often no longer so new) and
> the critics, are here and we have a right to be here by
> virtue of our concern for and involvement in this place;

In the case of the most recalcitrant critics, I am no longer sure that this
is the case. Indeed, I can see a quite compelling circumstantial argument
being made that certain individuals remain here and engage in the disruptive
behavior they do not for love of Nova Roma, but because of a deep and bitter
resentment. Whatever love they may have felt for Nova Roma has long since
turned to a seething desire to cause Her harm.

And the fact that certain of those individuals are known to be involved in
rival projects (formed when their own agendas here bore little fruit), which
would have much to gain through causing strife here, only makes the scenario
more plausible. It also explains why such individuals would continue to
remain in a place they so decry, when any sane person would have long since
left the Orwelian nightmare they paint Nova Roma as being.

It is not concern, but petulance and spite, which motivates these chronic
complainers.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] What NR is and should be (was Re: Reflections on...)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:22:04 -0400

Salvete,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:04 PM
>
> The founders had their own mix of ideas about Nova Roma and
> its institutions. But allowing in a broader selection of
> people is slowly resulting in a different consensus based
> on different perceptions of what Nova Roma really is and
> should be.

I disagree.

While the details are certainly changing, different aspects being emphasized
and de-emphasized, and new elements are being added regularly as new people
join our ranks with new ideas, the basic concept envisioned by myself and
the other people who were around at our inception remains constant. It is
enshrined in our founding documents; the Declaratio Novae Romae and our
Constitution which, though it has undergone many revisions and one complete
rewriting, still bears the definition of that original conception unchanged:

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

The details may change, new things added, some things removed, but the
fundamental purpose and identity of Nova Roma does not change.

> But I would like to stress the psychological aspects. If
> the veterans think that Nova Roma can become an
> intercontinental giant of a micronation and be just a
> bigger version of their original vision, then they are
> simply deluding themselves. There are more imaginations and
> wills here now than when Nova Roma was founded, and if the
> veterans want to make us feel that Nova Roma is really our
> home and our Rome too, they must let us decide with them
> what and how it is to be.

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

I do indeed believe that vision will remain valid as we grow and become an
"intercontinental giant of a micronation". For that belief, you say I am
"deluded". I say it is you who are deluded, thinking to come in here and
change the very fundamental foundation of an organization merely because it
doesn't happen to mesh with the way you think it should have been founded in
the first place.

If you can work within that vision, then yes, you are home. You, Formosanus,
have hitherto not seemed willing or able to do so, and in your frustration
you have caused no little amount of vexation to those who do agree with this
fundamental vision, who form the vast majority of our Citizens. We certainly
do not agree on everything, but on that fundamental question of what Nova
Roma is, and should be, we do. And the vast majority of people who join us,
do so because they also agree with it, even if they might disagree with some
particulars.

> 2) We have our own interpretations of Romanitas and our own
> visions of what we want Nova Roma to be, and these may be
> diffferent from those of the veterans' and no less valid;

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

As long as your own interpretation of Romanitas, and your own vision of what
you want Nova Roma to be, is consistent with that foundational statement, I
fully agree. It is only when you wish to turn NR into something at odds with
that basic vision, that your own ideas must perforce be turned aside. This
has been your trouble from the beginning, Formosanus; not a question of
specific issues, but the entire framework whence you approach those issues.
You and a handful of your supporters want Nova Roma to be a model of modern
21st-century civil rights and Political Correctness. It was never intended
to be such, and that fact has never changed, nor never been hidden from
prospective cives.

> 3) We have a right to determine together with the veterans
> as citizens together the nature and future of Nova Roma and
> what it means to be a Nova Roman, and our relatively
> greater numbers must be taken fairly into account.

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and
society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

Again, as long as such are consistent with that foundational statement, I
would agree. When you seek to contradict it with your never-ending crusades,
and try to overturn it in your quest to remake Nova Roma into what _you_
think it should be, there will be conflict. The choice is yours.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Excusionary government? (was: Reflections on...)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:22:14 -0400

Salvete,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:04 PM
>
> The veterans have devised a relatively closed system with
> relatively few members, one which can be very effective at
> excluding others it wants to exclude,

I must disagree with this villianous mischaracterization. It is true that to
date, circumstances have forced the same people to step up to the often
arduous tasks demanded of holding magistracies. That was a simple function
of population and experience, not through any systemic apparatus to keep out
new people.

Formosanus, your problem is that you lack patience. You want everything NOW
and are unwilling to brook any delay. We must be willing to wait for new
people to become seasoned and familiar with our society and its
institutions, as is happening right now. I believe it was Fortunatus before
who said that serving as rogator was an invaluable experience, giving
much-needed insights into the way our political system works. It is not
exclusionary to want our highest officials to have experience serving in
lesser offices, it is prudent.

> No one doubts that many of them have contributed much to
> Nova Roma, nor that some may be very good human beings, but
> I do not think that most people who find out how much power
> is kept in so few hands feel it fair.

Indeed. The "few" such as Caius Flavius Diocletiantus (Praetor, 1st elected
office held), Titus Labienus Fortunatus (Tribunus Plebis, previously
rogator), Cn. Moravius Piscinus (former Tribunus Plebis, 1st elected office
held), Quintus Sertorius (elected Quaestor then Tribunus Plebis, 1st year in
office), Marius Cornelius Scipio (Aedile, 1st elected office held), Titus
Sertorius Albinus (Aedile, 1st elected office held), Marcus Arminius Maior
(Aedile and Scribe, 1st year in office), you (Aedile, 1st elected office
held), six of our Quaestors, and all of our Vigintisexviri. Most of our
governors are newcomers as well. If we're trying to keep new people out of
the road to political authority, it sounds like we're doing a piss-poor job
of it.

Sounds to me like the system is working exactly the way it should. A new
crop of people learning the ropes, getting acquainted with our institutions
and our society, and in the process of climbing up the ladder. I offer no
apologies for the fact that it isn't working as quickly as you want it to.

> Such reasonable and small changes that still left all the
> senators in their seats of honour in the Senate, would make
> the playing field level enough for the future devlopments
> and evolution in Nova Roma to take place in a more normal
> manner with fewer tensions, resentments, and recriminations.

The playing field is quite level as it is. Attaining the lofty heights of
our political structure is, however, a slow process; a deliberate process.
We must not allow your impatience to drive us to imprudence. The system is
not "closed" at all, except to those who want to vault into the top seats of
power at once, and completely remold Nova Roma in their own image before
they have a fair inkling of what it is already like.

We need, and deserve, experienced and capable people in the major
magistracies. That's what the system is giving us, and as new experienced
and capable people arise, they too will find themselves with the opportunity
to serve the Republic in ever-more-demanding positions.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Away Notice
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:42:44 EDT

Salvete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus and Patricia Cassia are going on vacation! We will be
away from 1:00 PM EST on Friday, 8/31 until sometime Saturday, 9/8. We'll
miss everyone, and look forward to our return.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Reflections on the Peaceful Integration of Everyone
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:58:58 -0700 (PDT)

--- "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:

SNIP
>
> The veterans have devised a relatively closed system
> with
> relatively few members, one which can be very
> effective at
> excluding others it wants to exclude, and which
> through
> constitutional structure and political means ensure
> that it
> will have effective power over most legislative
> initiatives to change things. The result is that
> they have
> dug in by virtue of their century points, lifetime
> senate
> membership, and repeated holding of high offices,
> and they
> are willing to use this firmly-entrenched power to
> keep
> things in accordance with their vision for Nova Roma
> as
> much as possible.

Salvete Quirites,

So Formosanus has discovered a new cause to add to the
three dead horses he regularly flogs. Forcing the
"Veterans" to accept "Newcomers" even if they have
good reasons to reject these newcomers.

How selfless of him! Or is it? I am more of a
"Newcomer" Than Formosanus. I have been a citizen for
less time than Formosanus, and I have been appointed
Propraetor. Many of my fellow Propraetors have been
citizens for less time than he has. We have diverse
political views. Nova Roma is VERY open to new comers
of ALL views.

So why do we need to force open a system that is
already open? Is this selfless act a shameless attempt
to force one certain newcomer into office?

Read this post from the NovaromaVizantia mail list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaromaVizantia/message/946

Formosanus' Scribe Petrus Artorius Longinus made this
post on July 8th. I considered this part of it worth
remembering.

"2. Who would be our propraetor (some time ago in
request to Nr Senate for form province Venedia i
proposed Marcus Apollonius Formosanus for propraetor"

Yes Civies, Formosanus' Scribe included a nomination
of Formosanus as Propraetor in Vendia's application to
become a Provincia!

Formosanus, is this the REAL reason behind your latest
cause? Is this nothing more than a self serving
attempt to force the Senate into appointing you as the
Propraetor of Vendia? Is your name before the Senate
at this moment?

IF this is in fact true, then this sneaky attempt to
force the Senate's hand shows that you are unfit for
the job.

Formosanus, You have attempted to drive a wedge
between the "Veterans" and the "Newcomers" in your
post, with it's lies that new citizens are excluded.

You have repeated your calls to "strengthen the
plebeian institutions" All to often when you bought
this subject up you have shown you would do this in a
manner that would create distrust between the Orders.

In the Past you have attempted to alienate the North
American Civies from the European Civies.

Your "peaceful protests" consist of using slurs like
"Homophobe" in your efforts to force our elected
Magistrates to bend to your will.

In Short you have shown that you have NO qualms about
resorting to stirring up class warfare to create a
power base for yourself. Your past actions have shown
that you are unfit to be a Lictor, let alone to be
preceded by Lictors.

I Am fed up with the divisions that your power lust,
your need to force your will on Nova Roma have
created.

I Am Calling for Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to
resign his citizenship from Nova Roma. I call on
Formosanus to create his own "21st Century"
Micronation of Libra Roma which he can control through
whatever means he wishes.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] fading in to the abyss
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:20:38 EDT

Greetings all,
Since i am involved with or on so many lists I am making a blanket
post to save me what time I have. My hard drive is fouling again. I am going
to try a Norton program that the dr. I work with says may help.
In july I was offered a 486 hard drive if Gen and Scott see this note
please contact me !
I hope the worst doesn't happen yet but if it does I will be able to
check my mail every 2- 4 days. then it may be a month or two til l / its is
back to normal.

In service to so many dreams
Ancinna Fabia Drusila
Shieka Aminah bint Abdullah al' asseri
Rheed of the shallows
janet
"Where life is not kind ... it is generous"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Absolute power....Fabius' reply
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:34:27 EDT

Salvete!

In a message dated 8/31/01 4:44:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:
Q. Fabus Maximus answers
>>Just wanted to make a few comments.
>
> <<

Oh please do.

> (snipped)
>
> > "No one doubts that many of them have contributed much to
> > Nova Roma, nor that some may be very good human beings, but
> > I do not think that most people who find out how much power
> > is kept in so few hands feel it fair. And when some of the
> > group manipulate it to get back at critics or disliked
> > individuals among the general population, it looks even
> > worse."
> >
> > Next thing you will be saying is "Absolute power corrupts"
> >
>
> It does. 99% of all absolute leaders are corrupt.

And if I had absolute power maybe that would be true. But
consider what power I really have. Or had. Right now I have none.
My law code research is at a stand still, because I'm tradding jabs with
you. Believe me, if I felt that this was benign and you are just discontented
about NR, I wouldn't be here. But we ignored you last September, and look
where that got us. So I ignore you no longer. Everytime "you" bitch about
NR and it direction, one of us will be here to answer. Ye gods Apollonius
Draco,
it has been less then four years. Give it time.
I have no power here. All I have is the respect given to me as former
Consul,
Praetor Urbanus, and a Roman scholar. All that is earned through study, hard
work and dedication. Not because I have six armed lictors.

>
> > "Such reasonable and small changes that still left all the
> > senators in their seats of honour in the Senate, would make
> > the playing field level enough for the future developments
> > and evolution in Nova Roma to take place in a more normal
> > manner with fewer tensions, resentments, and
> > recriminations."
> >
> > Again all manufactured by you.
>
> A denial policy. It takes two to tango; holding only Formosanus responsible
> for all that is (allegedly) wrong in NR is a mistake.
>

A what policy? Look around you. Who has the loudest voice here? Let him
shut up, and then let's listen to additional discontented murmurs. Are there
any?
We can't tell can we? So you suggest that I and my colleagues be quiet and
just let him rant? You have read Cicero, Draco, just how Roman would we be
to allow that?

> > "If the veterans think that Nova Roma can become an
> > intercontinental giant of a micronation and be just a
> > bigger version of their original vision, then they are
> > simply deluding themselves. There are more imaginations and
> > wills here now than when Nova Roma was founded, and if the
> > veterans want to make us feel that Nova Roma is really our
> > home and our Rome too, they must let us decide with them
> > what and how it is to be."
> >
> > If you please. We have 20-30 memberships coming in weekly, and
> > if you take away the 100 discontent citizens who want to tear us down
> > ... (snipped)
>
> "Tearing us down" is a paranoid statement, and it shows that you don't
> really understand what discontentment means. It is not a synonym of
> destruction. By saying this, polarization will only increase.

Paranoid? Are you a psychologist as well? The only paranoid people here
seems to be your faction. You are paranoid of the Senate, the Curator of the
list, the Praetors, the Censors, as for polarization, we had it here when
Marconius
and Marius were ranting. I do not want to go through that again.

>
> > "So far the veterans have not taken criticism well. Note
> > that it did not use to be criticism so much for
> > "oligarchism", but simply criticism for specific acts of
> > perceived injustice. The ineffectiveness of reasoned and
> > persistent protests because of the close bondings among the
> > veterans has now resulted in increasing examination of the
> > bases of power here."
> >
> > Well, gee, Apollonius you cut me to the quick. If I had any power here
> > your raggedy ass would be on an island, banished for life.
>
> How extremely nice and polite. Do you always deal with opposition in this
> way? Well, if you say things like that, it should not surprise you that
> people think you are - dare I say it - rightist.
>
I was making a jest. He claimed I had power. I demonstrated I had none.
Of course you paranoid fool. I who am a democrat liberal, I'm a rightist.
What
a laugh. If anything I'm a centralist here in Rome, but I lean towards
tradition.
If this isn't a reconstruction of Rome, but a 21st cent creation, I'm
marching lockstep with your pater, but, and this is the thing you all forget,
it is not.
We are attempting to reconstruct Rome. And 21st cent thinking is not going
to do that. We need to understand how Romans saw their life, the concepts of
correctness, duty, and fear of the gods. Can we do this 100%? No, but we
can sure try to get 75% correct. And if not maybe 50%. If this makes me
rightist,
so be it.

> > "I think that these points are fair and realistic, and that
> > a serious-minded consideration of them by all the veterans
> > would perhaps yield a climate here in which there would be
> > less tension and a more amicable relationship with all the
> > rest of us."
> >
> > Who are "us" Villius, and the Family Apolonii? And we have a friendly
> > atmosphere here. Till someone decides he knows more about our design
> > then the designers themselves. Then things get a mite moody. Like all
> good
> > Romans we are ready to struggle for what we believe in. And we believe in
> a
> > Roman reconstruction, not a modern one with Roman aspects "attached."
>
> Formosanus does not hold the orthodox interpretation of Romanitas, and
> neither do you.
>

And neither do you. So I'd say the majority wins, correct? Seems like we
are winning.

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Ohio Nova Roma event - advertisment
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:44:26 EDT

(Until the time of the event I will be making what posts I can to advertise
the event. Not to be a pest but to reach as many new and other members that
may have missed an earlier post.)

Salvete,
On October 13 in Columbus Ohio a Nova Roma event will be held Please
read all of the post. Come and have fun with us!

A light lunch will be avaible on site as well. We have yet to pin it
down but it will be at reasonable cost and filling fare.

** Please the only confirmed resevation will be a prepaid one. You can e-mail
me but it must be backed up by either a check or money order. Please send
them to:
(Paid Preservtions are due by october 1st.)
Janet king
6432 So. Anthony Blvd
Fort Wayne, IN
46816
October 13, 2001
09:45 Opening Ceremonies/Benediction to the gods
10:00 Event opens to the public.
Religio Romana Exibit
Sodalitas Militarium Exibit
Money Changer (selling NR coins)
Oratory Contest (Topic to be on Taxation.)
Art contest (any form)
Gladiatorial Combat (Scripted)
Olympic Games (to be announced)
Roman Theater (to be announced)
Roman fashion show
FOOD!

The event will end at 5:00 pm, and for those who have
RSVPed in advance, we will be holding a private
"Roman" dinner from 6-9:00. There will be prizes
awarded for the various contests, and everyone
attending the dinner, will receive a special keepsake.

Bene,
M. Scipio Africanus

Here is the menu for the feast we will be having in
Columbus, Ohio after the Roman Day event. This is a
RSVP only dinner, and the cover charge will be $15.00.
I have tasted the cook's tallents, and I strongly
anyone planning to attend the event to stick around
for the dinner. For RSVP, contact Ancinna Fabia Drusila
(Asseri@--------) before October first. * see above note*
(Paid Preservtions are due by october 1st.)
Menu

hard cooked eggs (brown)
two types of flavored soft cheeses
flat bread
herbed olives
dried fruits
marinated chicken
marinated cucumber slices (garum and balsamic vinegar)

Baian Stew (Simply to die for)
lentils and artichokes hearts
cannelli bean fixed herb sauce
stuffed date fried in honey
sliced cantaloupes and grapes
raisin sweetened apple juice and grape juice (no
alchohol allowed there)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Nova Roma Facts
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:51:59 EDT

In a message dated 8/31/01 8:32:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

> DRACO: I understand, and feel not offended. I only wish that you wouldn't be
> so convinced that I and some of my friends are trying to "destroy NR". That
> is a very far fetch, and has led to unnecessary and counterproductive mass
> hysteria in the past.
>
>
Salvete
If I may interject, here. I do not think you wish to destroy NR as we know
it Apollonius Draco, but you have allied yourself with people who said that
they do.
You are a bright young man and you should see this. Also you have a great
political
career here, if your descent against the status quo is any indication, and
you will go far.
Time is what you now have to accept. Time and patience.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:34:09 EDT

In a message dated 8/31/01 7:24:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
labienus@-------- writes:

> Outside of
> work, well, my wife once turned a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses away from our
> door, saying, "I will not tolerate any blasphemy against the Gods of Rome
> in
> this house!"
>
>

Bravo to your wife!
Vale
Q Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Some responses
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:38:22 +0200

S. Apollonius Draco Q. Fabio Maximot L. Sicinio Druso et omnesque Quiritibus
SPD

Allright, instead of cluttering the main list with two replies, I'll bundle
my answers and comments in one larger posting.

QFM: Next thing you will be saying is "Absolute power corrupts"

SAD: It does. 99% of all absolute leaders are corrupt.

QFM2: And if I had absolute power maybe that would be true. But consider
what power I really have. Or had. Right now I have none. My law code
research is at a stand still, because I'm tradding jabs with you.

SAD2: Is it? Strange that I can find the time to do two things at once.
Don't tell me that writing an email takes you all day. Besides, you haven't
been trading jabs with me since January, have you? And you have a colleague,
too.

QFM2: Believe me, if I felt that this was benign and you are just
discontented about NR, I wouldn't be here. But we ignored you last
September, and look where that got us. So I ignore you no longer.
Everytime "you" bitch about NR and it direction, one of us will be here to
answer. Ye gods Apollonius Draco, it has been less then four years.
Give it time. I have no power here. All I have is the respect given to me
as former Consul, Praetor Urbanus, and a Roman scholar. All that is earned
through study, hard work and dedication. Not because I have six armed
lictors.

SAD2: I did not say that. You are taking a general politico-philosophical
statement personally.

----***----

SAD: A denial policy. It takes two to tango; holding only Formosanus
responsible for all that is (allegedly) wrong in NR is a mistake.

QFM: A what policy? Look around you. Who has the loudest voice here? Let
him shut up, and then let's listen to additional discontented murmurs. Are
there any? We can't tell can we? So you suggest that I and my colleagues be
quiet and just let him rant? You have read Cicero, Draco, just how Roman
would we be to allow that?

SAD2: One complaint is just as valid as a hundred. And I did not suggest
that you be silent. If Formosanus is the fool you portray him to be, the
people would be intelligent enough to see that without your help. You are
attacking the man more than you are actually going into what he said. This
is no substantial dialogue.

----***----

QFM: If you please. We have 20-30 memberships coming in weekly, and if you
take away the 100 discontent citizens who want to tear us down ... (snipped)

SAD: "Tearing us down" is a paranoid statement, and it shows that you don't
really understand what discontentment means. It is not a synonym of
destruction. By saying this, polarization will only increase.

QFM2: Paranoid? Are you a psychologist as well?

SAD2: Nope. Never said so either.

QFM2: The only paranoid people here seems to be your faction. You are
paranoid of the Senate, the Curator of the list, the Praetors, the Censors,
as for polarization, we had it here when Marconius and Marius were ranting.
I do not want to go through that again.

SAD2: "It's your fault! He started! He did it!" That's what you're sounding
like. I admit that I'm not a saint, and have done some pretty stupid things
here, but it would be nice if you came out of that ivory tower and stopped
blaming other people for their opinions, their character and their
criticism.

----***----

QFM: Well, gee, Apollonius you cut me to the quick. If I had any power here
your raggedy ass would be on an island, banished for life.

SAD: How extremely nice and polite. Do you always deal with opposition in
this way? Well, if you say things like that, it should not surprise you that
people think you are - dare I say it - rightist.

QFM2: I was making a jest. He claimed I had power. I demonstrated I had
none. Of course you paranoid fool. I who am a democrat liberal, I'm a
rightist. What a laugh. If anything I'm a centralist here in Rome, but I
lean towards tradition. If this isn't a reconstruction of Rome, but a 21st
cent creation, I'm marching lockstep with your pater, but, and this is the
thing you all forget, it is not. We are attempting to reconstruct Rome. And
21st cent thinking is not going to do that. We need to understand how
Romans saw their life, the concepts of correctness, duty, and fear of the
gods. Can we do this 100%? No, but we can sure try to get 75% correct.
And if not maybe 50%. If this makes me rightist, so be it.

SAD2: So, you somehow believe you ought to behave differently here than in
your macronation, even when it comes down to moral convictions? Forgive me
for saying this, but one of the two must be a pretence, and therefore a form
of roleplaying. This will very likely piss you off, but that's what it's
sounding like. Besides, you cannot do without 21st century thinking.
Reconstructing a civilization that died about 1600 years ago is impossible;
none of us are naturally born Romans, and trying to think like someone of
let's say the 2nd century AD is therefore doomed to fail. You can't just
eliminate your own opinions and precepts when you enter Nova Roma.

----***----

SAD: Formosanus does not hold the orthodox interpretation of Romanitas, and
neither do you.

QFM: And neither do you. So I'd say the majority wins, correct? Seems like
we are winning.

SAD2: This is not about winning. All I'm saying is that many interpretations
are equally valid.

----***----
----***----

I don't know why I'm even replying to this, but I was too weak to resist the
urge.

(snipped)

LSD: Yes Civies, Formosanus' Scribe included a nomination of Formosanus as
Propraetor in Vendia's application to become a Provincia!
Formosanus, is this the REAL reason behind your latest cause? Is this
nothing more than a self serving attempt to force the Senate into appointing
you as the Propraetor of Vendia? Is your name before the Senate at this
moment?
IF this is in fact true, then this sneaky attempt to force the Senate's hand
shows that you are unfit for the job.

SAD: Let me recap. You have no evidence. You are not a Venedian. You are not
a Senator. This is not your business. I am coming across rude, and I realize
it, but I think that you are resorting here to a very low tactic, namely
accusing a fellow citizen of the same thing you are doing.

LSD: Formosanus, You have attempted to drive a wedge between the "Veterans"
and the "Newcomers" in your post, with it's lies that new citizens are
excluded.

SAD: Again, you are without evidence. All you have as a support are
diliberate misinterpretations and distortions of Formosanus' words, backed
up by the reactions of the "usual suspects" who attack Formosanus no matter
what he says.

LSD: You have repeated your calls to "strengthen the plebeian institutions"
All to often when you bought this subject up you have shown you would do
this in a manner that would create distrust between the Orders.
In the Past you have attempted to alienate the North American Civies from
the European Civies.
Your "peaceful protests" consist of using slurs like "Homophobe" in your
efforts to force our elected Magistrates to bend to your will.
In Short you have shown that you have NO qualms about resorting to stirring
up class warfare to create a power base for yourself. Your past actions have
shown that you are unfit to be a Lictor, let alone to be preceded by
Lictors.

SAD: I find this an offensive and arrogant claim of yours. How low can you
go? You are ceaselessly attacking everything Formosanus is, and if you knew
him just a little better, you might not say these things about him. If he is
trying to alienate plebeians from patricians, then why is Senator Merullus a
friend of his? If he is trying to alienate Europaei from Americani, then why
is he an American citizen living in Venedia? If he is trying to create a
base of power, don't you think that he would use different tactics? Perhaps,
tactics like the one you are using now.

LSD: I Am fed up with the divisions that your power lust, your need to force
your will on Nova Roma have created.
I Am Calling for Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to resign his citizenship from
Nova Roma. I call on Formosanus to create his own "21st Century"
Micronation of Libra Roma which he can control through whatever means he
wishes.

SAD: So, you offer an offensive accusation without evidence, filled with
assumptions and attacks about Formosanus' character -- which should not play
a role in an ideological clash -- and then go on to pretend that you know
his every intention. You -- and all other opponents of his -- are willfully
omitting his work and enthusiasm in spreading Latin throughout NR, as both
head of the Sodalitas Latinitatis and the Schola Latina. You are attacking
an eminent, peace-loving, taoist scholar who is fluent in at least five
languages, and with a cultural experience larger than most citizens of Nova
Roma. You are judging a person you don't have the slightest idea about.

Valete bene omnes,
S. Apollonius Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Colonia
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:50:46 -0700

Ave,

Thank you for posting this its very interesting.

Vale,

Sulla

Jeff Smith wrote:
>
> http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Colonia.html
>
> This is some interesting commentary and text on Roman
> Colonia.
>
> Dalmaticus
>
> =====
> JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies out of the
> trunk." -- anonymous
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
> Messenger
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Subject:	(to Draco)Re: [novaroma] Analysis of NR (II)
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:18:05 -0700 (PDT)

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
(private)
> Salve Draco,

> For the convenience of Censor Sulla and everyone
> else, I have stripped this
> reply of html. Max: :) (Sorry this was not
intentional.)
>
> I tried to reply to your message in full but it was
truncated.
Suffice it to say:
Thank you for your reply and your complimentary
statements regarding our debate.

I am sorry that I was not more clear in reply to your
message. I must apologize as I used your post to take
issue with persons that you are associated with in
order to be more diplomatic.

I am certain that you know on which feet the shoes
fit.

TO be more clear without publicly attacking
individuals by name as I believe this has been played
out:

Point: IMHO, the citizens of NR do not want people
who are more interested in *drama* and dramatic
oratories than they are in offering clear and
forthright solutions. (I am certain that many of
*your* ideas are clear and forthright).

Point: As I personally feel that you have a lot to
offer NR, consider that sometimes the good of the
whole should outweigh the good of a few.

In closing:
(Not a lecture, just an observation) I admire you and
your posts, however, you could use your talents in
much better ways than they have been proferred.

Please be well and consider what I have said. Thanks
for your efforts as a reasonable human.

Vale friend, Maximina Octavia


Subject:	Re: (Caesaria)Re: [novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:58:28 -0700 (PDT)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote: Ave,Can this
be reposted without the HTML please?
I would really like to read it.
Vale,Sulla
Ave Sulla , So would I! If anyone should be able to
read through HTML, you should. (LOL) I am not sure how
this happened. Yahoo, I guess. I haven't had this
happen before. Sorry.
Maximina Octavia wrote:

Ave Pompeia,Congratulations on your> appointment! You
fill a very important position> and I am happy to see
it filled by a woman.> I know that you will always do
your> best for Nova Roma. I am honored to say that I
know> from personal association with you that you have
the> highest moral character and kindest> heart. We,
at Nova Roma, are lucky to have> someone like you
serve in California or anywhere for> that matter.Best
wishes and again> Congratulations!> Vale, Maximina Octavia


Subject:	RE: Re: (Caesaria)Re: [novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL
From:	"alexious@--------" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:08:02 -0400

Ave,

Yes I was able to read it..but it was hard on my eyes. And it just took a bit of time.

BTW, I really enjoyed reading your post.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Maximina Octavia myownq@--------
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: (Caesaria)Re: [novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL

<html><body>
<tt>
�� Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix� wrote: Ave,Can this 
be reposted without the HTML please? 
I would really like to read it. 
Vale,Sulla 
Ave Sulla , So would I!� If anyone should be able to 
read through HTML, you should. (LOL) I am not sure how 
this happened.� Yahoo, I guess. I haven't had this 
happen before.� Sorry. 
Maximina Octavia wrote: 
 
Ave Pompeia,Congratulations on your> appointment! You 
fill a very important position> and I am happy to see 
it filled by a woman.> I know that you will always do 
your> best for Nova Roma.� I am honored to say that I 
know> from personal association with you that you have 
the> highest moral character and kindest> heart. We, 
at Nova Roma, are lucky to have> someone like you 
serve in California or anywhere for> that matter.Best 
wishes and again> Congratulations!> Vale, Maximina Octavia 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:45:17 -0700 (PDT)

SALVETE,

--- labienus@-------- wrote:

>
> I am raising my daughter in a fashion which I see as
> Nova Roman. I can't raise
> her as a Roman, and, considering the ancient views
> about women, I really
> wouldn't want to.

ACS: This is one of the many reasons our culture is
so wonderful. The celebration of life, as well as the
evolving which can take place within her arms. And
doesnt frown upon how you raise your children (as a
whole). So, no matter what we call it.. Nova Roman or
Roman.. its still the same culture.. Ancient views
about women? Im sure that it seems very confining
compared to
our current society. But a huge role, they did play in
the nurturing of the culture apart from the care of
the household. Being brought up in a similar fashion
myself.. I was never taught to look down upon women..
But to hold them in the highest regard as the
nurturers
of our future. In most societies today, we are trying
very diligently to have equal standing between the
sexes.But what does that really mean? Its known that
there are natural tendencies that most women have,
that are very difficult for most men to accomplish.
And it goes both ways, of course. These issues were
well in place in ancient times... Technologies
flurished.. Most of our social issues remain the same.

That said, I maintain a lararium
> at which I sacrifice
> incense to the Lares, Penates, manes of my
> ancestors, our patron Gods, and the
> genius locus of my house on a fairly regular basis.
> Each year, we also perform
> a special ritual in honor of Ianus. I include my
> daughter in these rites,
> allowing her to take part as she desires (she is
> only two years old, after
> all).

ACS: I'm very happy to read this. This will show that,
the ones that are observing the religio are not alone.

I am attempting to amass photographs and
> other images of my and my
> wife's ancestors to include in the cabinet we use to
> store our lararium, as a
> modern version of imagines.

ACS: Modern? Im certain that placing familial images
have been around for a while:-)

Eventually, I want to
> collect what information I
> can to attach stories to those images and teach my
> daughter about her family's
> history.

ACS: Very commendable.

> Several of her favorite books are about ancient
> Rome, filled with some very
> nice pictures of Roman antiquities and the Romans
> themselves. I am
> unfortunately not half so proficient with Latin as I
> like, so I can't really
> help her become a native speaker of the language.

ACS: I'm sure that there were derrivations of latin in
the outlying provinces.. It must have been wonderful
to hear someone speaking a language other than latin
at their lararium (in ancient times).

> However, as I show her new
> things and teach her words, I mix English and Latin.
> "Yes, Julia, that's a
> tree. Arbor est." We are, in many ways, learning
> together.
>
> Additionally, as she gets older, I shall endeavor to
> instill in her the primary
> ethics of Stoicism as my parents did for me, and I
> will expose her to other
> philosophies along the way. All of the Romans I
> admire were men of deep
> thought, and I want to impress upon my daughter the
> importance of exercising
> one's intellect. For me, this is an integral part
> of Romanitas.

ACS: For you, as well as most of us, mei amice!

> As for expressing my own Romanitas, I do that simply
> by existing day to day as
> a pagan Stoic. The Stoicism of M Aurelius and
> Seneca is quintessentially
> Roman, and it is usually to them that I turn when I
> need some advice. I am a
> modern citizen of the USA, but much of my thought
> remains grounded in the
> worldview of the ancients.
>
> And, finally, do I openly express my love for our
> culture and Gods? I do so,
> but situationally. At my current place of work, I
> am surrounded by fairly
> devout Christians. Therefore, in the interest of a
> peaceful work environment,
> I choose not to make an issue of my religion while
> there. I do, however, make
> no secret of my chosen philosophy and my love of the
> ancient world. Outside of
> work, well, my wife once turned a pair of Jehovah's
> Witnesses away from our
> door, saying, "I will not tolerate any blasphemy
> against the Gods of Rome in
> this house!"

ACS: LOL! My mother used to say something a little
along the lines of that! A very firey Roman woman :-)
And for your wife, very admirable.

Dii te ament,

A. Corvus Septimius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Family.
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:15:50 -0500

Salvete Antoni Corve aliique

> ACS: This is one of the many reasons our culture is
> so wonderful. The celebration of life, as well as the
> evolving which can take place within her arms. And
> doesnt frown upon how you raise your children (as a
> whole). So, no matter what we call it.. Nova Roman or
> Roman.. its still the same culture.. Ancient views
> about women? Im sure that it seems very confining
> compared to our current society.

Ancient views about women do not *seem* confining. They are. In
ancient Rome, women could not own property except in rare circumstances,
they could not perform legal actions without a male tutor's consent,
they could not decide whom they would marry, they could not vote, &c.
In short, the power to determine the course of their lives was almost
entirely out of their hands. Most importantly, the ancient writers
often state as fact their opinion that women are inferior to men. I
have no doubt, therefore, that women were raised to believe that they
were inferior.

Does this mean that no Roman woman was happy with her life, or that they
were not appreciated for the role they played? Of course not. However,
I am quite grateful that my daughter will grow up in a society which
will, for the most part, judge her on the merits of her actions and on
the strength of her character, rather than on her gender. And, I will
raise her to believe that she is, in general, the equal of anyone--man
or woman--and to demand treatment that conforms with that fact.

> of our future. In most societies today, we are trying
> very diligently to have equal standing between the
> sexes.But what does that really mean?

It means a level playing field in which women have the power to control
their own destiny as much as any man. And, before someone tries to
bring up this particular chestnut, I am not referring to "lowering the
bar" for women. I am referring to allowing them to reach for the bar in
the first place.

> Most of our social issues remain the same.

Veritas est. Humans have not changed so much in the last few millenia.

> ACS: I'm very happy to read this. This will show that,
> the ones that are observing the religio are not alone.

Oh, we're not alone. We're just a little scattered.

>> I am attempting to amass photographs and
>>other images of my and my
>>wife's ancestors to include in the cabinet we use to
>>store our lararium, as a
>>modern version of imagines.
>
> ACS: Modern? Im certain that placing familial images
> have been around for a while:-)

Well, yes. However, the photograph is certainly a modern invention.

>> Eventually, I want to
>>collect what information I
>>can to attach stories to those images and teach my
>>daughter about her family's
>>history.
>
> ACS: Very commendable.

Gratias. My parents taught me very little about my ancestry, so I'm
doing it as much for myself as for my daughter and my ancestors' spirits.

> ACS: I'm sure that there were derrivations of latin in
> the outlying provinces.. It must have been wonderful
> to hear someone speaking a language other than latin
> at their lararium (in ancient times).

I expect that even the best modern Latinist would sound a bit odd to Cicero.

> ACS: LOL! My mother used to say something a little
> along the lines of that! A very firey Roman woman :-)
> And for your wife, very admirable.

I'll pass that along to her.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC


Subject:	Re: (Caesaria)Re: [novaroma] EDICTVM PROCONSVL CAL
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesaria <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 31 Aug 2001 16:51:54 -0700 (PDT)

--- Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> wrote:
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote: Ave,Can this
> be reposted without the HTML please?
> I would really like to read it.
> Vale,Sulla
> Ave Sulla , So would I! If anyone should be able
> to
> read through HTML, you should. (LOL) I am not sure
> how
> this happened. Yahoo, I guess. I haven't had this
> happen before. Sorry.
> Maximina Octavia wrote:
>
> Ave Pompeia,Congratulations on your> appointment!
> You
> fill a very important position> and I am happy to
> see
> it filled by a woman.> I know that you will always
> do
> your> best for Nova Roma. I am honored to say that
> I
> know> from personal association with you that you
> have
> the> highest moral character and kindest> heart. We,
> at Nova Roma, are lucky to have> someone like you
> serve in California or anywhere for> that
> matter.Best
> wishes and again> Congratulations!> Vale, Maximina
> Octavia
>

Salve Maximina,

Thank you for your confidence and for the compliments.
I hope I will fulfill my position to everyone's
satisfaction and that I will be an asset to Roma.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonica Caesaria
>

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