Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Leaving
From:	MIBAntT@--------
Date:	Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:43:19 EDT

I have been a lurker, observing Nova Roma for quite some time. For a bit over
a year now, I think. Your organization did much to stimulate my interest in
Classical history, and that knowledge made my recent trip to Rome more
enjoyable.
I attempted to join NR some time ago, but I was unable to, as the
paterfamilias of my desired gens did not list his E-mail addy. I did
subscribe to your list though, and was impressed at the volume of mail I
recieved concerning events, classical history, books, and whatnot.
However, my mailbox has been flooded with insulting and rather immature
messages. There were so many that I'm now in the habit of deleting most
"[novaroma]" posts that come into my possession. As such, I didn't read much
of the argument that has occured here as of late, but I am rather shocked at
they way it was handled. As such, I think it's time that I join the list of
"Nova Roman refugees" and high-tail it out of here before I lose an important
message in the volumes of insulting mails shooting back and forth.
To those who are serious about Nova Roma, good luck to you. It's a noble
cause, and one worth working for. A lot of politics involves compromise, and
getting over bitter personality conflicts, which I suppose has not helped the
situation with the Century Points system. To those of you who can go above
and beyond that, I ask you to step forward and maybe bring some sense into
this list.
Thanks, and regrets
-Mag

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: Re: [novaroma] RESIGNATION
From:	Iulia66198@--------
Date:	Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:26:30 EDT

Salvete omnes...

Firstly, before I say anything else, let me opine for a moment by saying that
I have the greatest respect for Fortunatus and for his wisdom of things
Roman. I have even had the pleasure of making his acquaintance and that of
his family offline, and I don't believe he is the type to intentionally set
out to offend anyone.

Q. Fabius Maximus wrote:

<<Certainly Tribune Labienus was not referring to any Nova Roman Christians.
I saw nothing in it that would cause NR Christians to think they were being
singled out.>>

What exactly is a 'NR Christian'? Have we taken a poll of those defining
themselves as 'Christian' here to see what denomination they belong to and
whether or not it is 'acceptable' to us?

Iulia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Leaving
From:	Krysialtemus@--------
Date:	Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:43:50 EDT

I'm not leaving NR but am wondering why all the bickering? I too automatically delete almost all NR posts without reading them because I am sure that they are full of insults, whining, jealous tirades, ect.... It seems to me that this is a case of "to many chiefs (or wannabee's) and not enough indians".

Caecilia Drusa Dalmatica

And by the way, if someone did want to post something on here they risk being skewered by someone attempting to intimidate by any verbal means they can in order to show their supposed "intellectual superiority"!


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Leaving
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:16:51 -0400

Salve,

>>I have been a lurker, observing Nova Roma for quite some time. For a bit
over a year now, I think.>>

Interesting. He only joined the Main List on 7/26 of this year. Closer to
40 days than a year.

>>I did subscribe to your list though, and was impressed at the volume of
mail I recieved concerning events, classical history, books, and whatnot.>>

Interesting again. Not to slight ourselves, but this List has not been rife
with such posts since 7/26. Now, had he been a member for a longer time he
would have seen such posts, but he has not been.

I'll be blunt. When we lose the likes of someone like Dalmaticus.....a
proven worker and very highly liked man, it matters.......a LOT. When we
lose the likes of "Mag" here I see no loss. He made no
contribution.......not even an effort.......to our nation and yet he freely
criticizes. Had he truly been one of those who wanted to see NR succeed he
would be about more than words, and those words would not be so misleading.
I sense yet another "paper persona" trying to make a "statement". What a
shame he tried to do so and ride the legitimate emotion attached to the loss
of a man like Dalmaticus.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RESIGNATION
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:43:37 -0700 (PDT)

I too will be saddened to see you go. You do not
necessarily have to leave the Militarium. And
regardless of my present position in Nova Roma, I
agree that some here need to stop acting like children
and remember why this micro-nation was formed. Sadly,
I must admit that 90% of all NR mail I get is deleted
without being read simply because I know it is one
person berrating another, or someone whining about not
being able to buy a stupid island. IT is when quality
citizens such as yourself finally give up that I am
forced to let my honest opinions finally out.

Another fellow Soldier
Marcus Scipio Africanus
Legate of Lacus Magni Orientalis
Tribunii Angusticlavii of the Militarium

Shane Evans
Captain, United States Army

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RESIGNATION
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Wed, 5 Sep 2001 22:34:35 -0400

Salvete,
As a US Navy Retiree, I totally agree with Q. Fabius. In fact, one of the reason I joined the Navy was because it upset me that so many of my fellow anti-Vietnam War demonstrators seemed to target the soldiers! I, for one, demonstrated against that so-called "war" because I felt our soldiers were being needlessly killed!! So as soon as the troops got pulled out, I joined the Navy, to the consternation of my fellow hippie friends LOL
And, I lasted (as a big-time Liberal, Hippie, Environmentalist, and Feminist) for 20 years, & retired! I doubt I could have lasted 20 months in a truly fascist military.
So it bothers me that someone from NR could make such a statement.
Valete,
Helena Galeria
The second statement disturbs me more. Rome can be considered fascist during
the Principate and Dominate periods, but not the republic.
But for someone to call a US serving soldier "fascist" baffles the Hades out
me.
The United States uses a volunteer army, unlike Europe, which still practices
the Reserve
system. Which practice is fascist? Also, if you have ever been in the US
armed forces, you
know that you are instrument of the politicians decisions. You do not
question policy, you simply carry it out. In fact one of the few times the
government allowed the soldiers to question policy was the early period of
the American Civil War, also a volunteer army, and it was a disaster.
Since citizenship in the US is rather treasured, many US soldiers see
themselves akin to Roman soldiers, so they study them and their history.
Just because they have such an interest does not make them "fascists." This
practice must stop.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Leaving
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:06:12 EDT

In a message dated 9/5/01 5:45:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Krysialtemus@-------- writes:

> And by the way, if someone did want to post something on here they risk
> being skewered by someone attempting to intimidate by any verbal means they
> can in order to show their supposed "intellectual superiority"!
>
>

Salvete,
If someone can define intellectual superiority for me, I would appreciate it.
If you mean people get corrected on this list for mistakes they make about
Roman history, I do not believe that is intellectual superiority at all.
This is
what this list is about.
After spending 3 years on this list my knowledge of things Roman has doubled.
And that is a good thing. The comment about "Chiefs and Indians" is
misleading,
I think we have too little chiefs for so many Indians. Many here are seeing
a mini power struggle between the direction Nova Roma should proceed. The
Founders and their supporters see one direction, the so called Popularii see
another.
But the amount of discord on this list is almost nonexistent, when compared
to some of the
other academic lists I belong to. The Greek list is the worst, we had two
Prof's almost to blows about if the Spartans had transverse or transfixed
crests! The insults about the various Prof families and their knowledge made
for interesting reading to say the least.
I do not think there is that much wrong with us.

Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Philosophy needs - Consciousness
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:35:46 +1000 (EST)

Salvete omnes,

I am writing to ask anyone out there if they can
provide quotes and book details (author, publisher,
date etc.) for anything on consciousness, especially
if it is from the ancient sources, as I am writing an
article for a local magazine over here. Any modern
sources would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

http://travel.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Travel
- Got Itchy feet? Get inspired!


Subject:	[novaroma] Italkim = Roman Jews.
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 05:27:05 -0000

Salvete quirites et amici,

I post this in hopes to bring to light, a part of Roman history that
many (still practicing Italkim or "Roman Jews") would like to share.

This is in a preface of an Italkim cook book. If you would like further
information on this, contact me personally. I would be more than happy
to share it with you.

" The Jews in Italy "

"Although most of us think of Italy as the cradle of Catholicism,
in fact, the oldest Jewsish community in the world is in Rome. Jews
have been in Italy since the second century BCE, arriving from
settlements in Palestine when Judah Maccabeus formed an alliance with
Rome. After the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in ACE 70, more
Jews came to the city, many as prisoners of war. A relife on the arch
of Titus in the Colloseum, depicts the carrying away of the menorah
from the Temple. At the end of the first century, some 30,000 Jews
lived in Rome, settled around Trastevere and the Isola Tiburina.
Italian Jews fall into three major strains. The Italkim are Jews who
have been in Italy since the second century BCE. The Sephardim came
from Spain and Prtugal after the Spanish inquisition of 1492. The
Ashkenazim settled in the norther parts of Italy. The French Jews in
Piedmontm the German Jews in Friuli and Trieste, others in Mantua and
Ferrara."

As I continue to gather information on this subject. I can
offer more of my own personal stories of my fellow Romans
who call themselves Italkim. Most of their costoms take me back to the
Roma that we all know and love. Down to their katuba (Jewish marriage
licensce of sorts). Where the love for Roma is very evident.
This makes me feel even more (if possible) compelled to raise my
children within this culture in which I adore. Because of the fact that
even with all the time that has past. And all of the horrors of those
who would rather see a person die because of their beliefs. The Italkim
have kept the culture intwined with their God. For this, they have my
most humble respect.As well as a familial embrace as Romans.

Dii te ament quirites et shalom mei amici Italkim!
A. Corvus Septimius Arloro


Subject:	[novaroma] Defeat of Varus.
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:55:39 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

I have just been watching quite a good TV program about the annihilation of Quintilius Varus' army at the hands of Arminius and the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest.

The program touched on the implications for subsequant European history and made some quite dramatic conclusions. It called the battle 'one of the most important events in European history' and one that has shaped modern Europe. This was based on the premise that the defeat of the legions led to the end of the Imperial policy of attempting to 'Romanize' Germania and consequently led to the cultural division of Europe. This resulted, apparently, in the subsequant wars such as the religous ones during the reformation, the Napoleonic wars and even the first and second world wars that occured last (!!!!!) century. The program also mentioned that rulers such as Charlemagne, Frederick the 'Great', Kaiser Willhelm and even Hitler himself would not have risen to power had Varus not so rashly marched his troops into the trap Arminius had set.

All of which made me think - the wars of the reformation happened in a Christian Europe, not a pagan one - and a vast majority of Europe was Christian at this time including Romanized and Germanic. However, it was predominately the Germanic countries such as the Rhine states and England that converted to Protestantism. Why?

Napolean rose to power in a 'Romanized' country and went to war against other 'Romanized' nations in addition to Germanic ones such as Prussia. He also had Germanic allies. Can these events really be traced back to Varus' defeat?

The first and second world wars occured between various Romanized and Germanic countries with more idealogical than cultural significance. Italy allied with Germany during the Second World war for example. As such, the programs conclusions would appear flawed - right or wrong?

Finally, what about England? First Romanized and then Germanicized - where do we stand in the scheme of things? Would the Jutes, Angles and Saxons even have come to these shores if Augustus had succeded with his policy of settling Germania?

My final question to you is, undoubtdely important though the defeat was, especially for Rome and iron age Germany, was it such a defing moment in European history as the program made out?

I thank you in advance for your time.

Valete,

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Thoughts on Respect
From:	"Sybil Leek" <DolanAp@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 02:49:01 -0700

Salve Omnes,

A comment on the nature of Nova Roma's mailing list and the negative effects
it has had on some citizens over the last year. Over the last year I have
noticed that we have lost several citizens because of the rude and brash
language used on this list. That loss either being their resignation or by
their deletion of mail because of its nature.

I have also been disheartened, as some of you may have been, over this last
year due to the nature of this lists language and politics. Nova Roma's
response to this lack of community has been to create guidelines for the
mailing list. As a note, rules are created in response to a community�s
inability to govern them selves.

If we ever hope to create a great nation in Nova Roma we must consider how
we interact with each other. For like a pebble thrown into a pond, language
starts a ripple that turns into a wave at a great distance. As such, I plead
with all to consider what we do and say in this moment, for our actions will
echo in the future of Nova Roma as a viable nation.

Vale Prima Ritulia Nocta,

"What we do in life, echos in eternity"
Movie: Gladiator, Character: Maximus, food for thought in a movie script
line.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


Subject:	[novaroma] Aeternia search and Dalmaticus regret
From:	alexprobus1@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:04:42 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I would be very glad if Aeternia will contact me ASAP. As she have
changed her email address few times I am not very sure about her
current one. I would need to contact her according to some Pannonian
provincial administration issues.
I would also like to express my deep regret on my friend Dalmaticus'
resignation. I contacted him and hope he will reconsider his
decision. His resignation will be a great loss for Nova Roma. As I
got a web status only on this list and do visit it from time to time
only, I got no idea about what have happend with Dalmaticus here.
Anyway, such insults as fascist etc just because Dalmaticus is a
serviceman can not be acceptable. I very much hope Dalmaticus will
reconsider and will return to his friends.

Bene valete

Alexander I.C. Probus


Subject:	[novaroma] Vindolandia bearing fruit
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:25:32 -0400

Salvete!

I happened on the following article, and thought folks here would find it
interesting, not only for the story itself (which is pretty darned
impressive) but also because Nova Roma recently made a donation to the
Vindolandia Trust. :-)

-----

Story of a slave is liberated by hi-tech scanner

BY NIGEL HAWKES AND MARK HENDERSON

FAINT messages on Roman writing tablets unearthed near Hadrian�s Wall have
been deciphered using a computer scanning technique.

The first analysis of the texts has already revealed that some slaves were
remarkably well-integrated into the society of Vindolandia, Northumberland,
in the second century. Further work on about 200 similar wooden tablets
promises to reveal much more about the economic and social structure of the
garrison settlement.

The tablets, recovered over three decades, were originally filled with wax
and written on using metal styluses. Only faint scratches survived. The new
system, developed by Michael Brady, Professor of Information Engineering at
Oxford University, enhances the text with raking light that casts shadows
which can be picked up by computer analysis. The system is being adapted to
improve analysis of mammograms, in which wispy fibres must be identified
against breast tissue.

Alan Bowman, of the Centre for the Study of Ancient Documents at Oxford
University, said that the first three tablets to be deciphered had added to
knowledge of Vindolandia.

One text had been especially illuminating. �It is part of a letter referring
to a slave named Vericundus that an officer has had in the household for 15
years or so,� Dr Bowman said. �He seems to have been sent on a mission to
Northern France with money, possibly involving the sale of a slave. The way
he is described and treated is evidence of a certain social intimacy between
slaves and quite senior officers. It shows how far slaves were trusted and
integrated into society, to an extent that is quite unusual for the period.
In one letter from an officer to a slave, the slave is even addressed as
�frater� (brother).�

The documents, Dr Bowman said, suggested that the Roman army on Hadrian�s
Wall was not a brutal army of oppression, but had close links with local
tribes. There are also records showing that the soldiers, who came from
Northern Germany, France and the Low Countries, remained in close
communication with their native regions, and also kept detailed records of
their economic transactions. �Even here, out in the sticks, we can see
evidence of meticulous book-keeping,� he said.

Professor Brady said of the computer system: �It has certainly achieved its
purpose, and an unexpected beneficiary of the work has been my primary
research interest, which is to develop systems that can diagnose breast
cancer as early as possible.

�Detecting cancerous tissue on a mammogram is not actually all that unlike
trying to read shallow scratches on a piece of wood. You have to pick out
very faint lines, against a pattern of considerable background �noise�,
whether that be the rest of the tissue in the breast or the grain of the
wood. This software can help.�

(From http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001305847,00.html)

-----

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings
From:	Jim Smith <heybabba@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:07:51 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,

Thank you, Maximina Octavia, for the greeting. I
find it refreshing to hear someone properly receive a
new member into this social order and make them feel
welcome. The mundane lives of so many in this day and
age, do not afford them the opportunity to do as such.

A little about me. I am a member of other
recreation groups, namely the SCA, of which I am
second in command of a Viking household. I am mostly
interested in the areas of militarism and societal
valour as seen and brought into play by Nova Roma and
the people therein. I am also doing research on a
type of Roman coin given to soldiers featuring sexual
positions. If anyone knows the Roman name for these
coins or has any information on them, please contact
me. I am currently acquiring an education in computer
science at my local college. I hope to find a faction
of Nova Roma in the Oregon area so that I may meet the
acquaintance of other Nova Romans and possibly enjoy a
hearty round of tali.

Vale, Primus Ritulius Militus

Unlike a politician, a soldier has the good fortune of
knowing who him enemies are.

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Subject:	[novaroma] List Content (was RE: RESIGNATION)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:55:25 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Evans [mailto:marcusafricanus@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:44 PM
>
> Sadly,
> I must admit that 90% of all NR mail I get is deleted
> without being read simply because I know it is one
> person berrating another, or someone whining about not
> being able to buy a stupid island.

...or people bitching about the poor quality of the discussions here on the
Nova Roma list.

Rather than merely complaining that there's too much rancor here, or too
much politics, or too much pie-in-the-sky dreaming, or too much
whatever-you-don't-like, would it not make more sense for you to start a
thread on something that _does_ interest you? THAT is the way to effect
change; if you don't like the threads that you see on the list, start one
that you DO like. Or perhaps you'd want to check out some of the 50+ email
lists on yahoogroups.com connected with Nova Roma that deal with innumerable
specialized topics, from cooking and food to military history to
gladiatorial combat.

Personally, as Consul and co-founder, I see the discussions of how to
develop our institutions and infrastructure as quite fascinating and vital.
They impact the development of the very framework we're building for the
discussion about and restoration of Rome, and since that's my interest those
are the threads I participate in.

But if you want to discuss the historical impact of the siege of Massada, or
what socio-politico developments led to the construction of Hadrian's Wall,
or the comparative biography of Sulla and Caesar, or tips on putting
together a large gathering in your Provincia for Saturnalia, then go ahead
and DO it. Don't wait for someone else to, and then claim it's a failing of
the group as a whole when they don't.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Philosophy needs - Consciousness
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:59:21 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig Stevenson [mailto:gaiussentius@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:36 AM
>
> I am writing to ask anyone out there if they can
> provide quotes and book details (author, publisher,
> date etc.) for anything on consciousness, especially
> if it is from the ancient sources, as I am writing an
> article for a local magazine over here. Any modern
> sources would also be appreciated.

You might try _The Origins of Consciousness in the Bicameral Mind_ by Julian
Jaynes (ISBN 0618057072). It's not specifically Roman (and as the title
might suggest it is hardly light reading), but it does use Homer as a major
source for its main argument.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Mithraic communities in Vindolanda? (was Re: Vindolandia bearing fruit)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:13:40 +0100

Salvete Consul Germanice et omnes

I found this part specially interesting:
> One text had been especially illuminating. It is part of a letter
referring
> to a slave named Vericundus that an officer has had in the household for
15
> years or so, Dr Bowman said. He seems to have been sent on a mission to
> Northern France with money, possibly involving the sale of a slave. The
way
> he is described and treated is evidence of a certain social intimacy
between
> slaves and quite senior officers. It shows how far slaves were trusted and
> integrated into society, to an extent that is quite unusual for the
period.
> In one letter from an officer to a slave, the slave is even addressed as
> frater (brother).

As you may know, Mithraists and faithful of some other oriental cults
addressed themselves as 'frater'. The period in question (2nd century AD,
the summit of Mithraism with the Antonine Emperors) and the fact that we are
talking about a military community may be evidence that relationships
between officers and slaves were softened because both were members of a
Mithraic community.

Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete!
>
> I happened on the following article, and thought folks here would find it
> interesting, not only for the story itself (which is pretty darned
> impressive) but also because Nova Roma recently made a donation to the
> Vindolandia Trust. :-)
>
> -----
>
> Story of a slave is liberated by hi-tech scanner
>
> BY NIGEL HAWKES AND MARK HENDERSON
>
> FAINT messages on Roman writing tablets unearthed near Hadrians Wall have
> been deciphered using a computer scanning technique.
>
> The first analysis of the texts has already revealed that some slaves were
> remarkably well-integrated into the society of Vindolandia,
Northumberland,
> in the second century. Further work on about 200 similar wooden tablets
> promises to reveal much more about the economic and social structure of
the
> garrison settlement.
>
> The tablets, recovered over three decades, were originally filled with wax
> and written on using metal styluses. Only faint scratches survived. The
new
> system, developed by Michael Brady, Professor of Information Engineering
at
> Oxford University, enhances the text with raking light that casts shadows
> which can be picked up by computer analysis. The system is being adapted
to
> improve analysis of mammograms, in which wispy fibres must be identified
> against breast tissue.
>
> Alan Bowman, of the Centre for the Study of Ancient Documents at Oxford
> University, said that the first three tablets to be deciphered had added
to
> knowledge of Vindolandia.
>
> One text had been especially illuminating. It is part of a letter
referring
> to a slave named Vericundus that an officer has had in the household for
15
> years or so, Dr Bowman said. He seems to have been sent on a mission to
> Northern France with money, possibly involving the sale of a slave. The
way
> he is described and treated is evidence of a certain social intimacy
between
> slaves and quite senior officers. It shows how far slaves were trusted and
> integrated into society, to an extent that is quite unusual for the
period.
> In one letter from an officer to a slave, the slave is even addressed as
> frater (brother).
>
> The documents, Dr Bowman said, suggested that the Roman army on Hadrians
> Wall was not a brutal army of oppression, but had close links with local
> tribes. There are also records showing that the soldiers, who came from
> Northern Germany, France and the Low Countries, remained in close
> communication with their native regions, and also kept detailed records of
> their economic transactions. Even here, out in the sticks, we can see
> evidence of meticulous book-keeping, he said.
>
> Professor Brady said of the computer system: It has certainly achieved
its
> purpose, and an unexpected beneficiary of the work has been my primary
> research interest, which is to develop systems that can diagnose breast
> cancer as early as possible.
>
> Detecting cancerous tissue on a mammogram is not actually all that unlike
> trying to read shallow scratches on a piece of wood. You have to pick out
> very faint lines, against a pattern of considerable background noise,
> whether that be the rest of the tissue in the breast or the grain of the
> wood. This software can help.
>
> (From http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001305847,00.html)
>
> -----
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] shalom chaverim! Re: Italkim = Roman Jews.
From:	"Quintus Quinctilius Varus Galili" <quinctilius.varus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 07:39:53 -0000

shalom chaver a. corvus ceptimius arloro,

ani lo jehudi, aval ani chaver gadol me ha israel we me ha phalastin.
ani lo medaber ivrit, aval ani mevin kzat,kzat,kzat! ani lichtov im
chaverim me galil, nazarat, yeushalaim (teddy kollek), betlahem, tel
aviv, acco, haifa .....
ani ohev meod yerushalaim ha shel zahav! ba shanah habaa anachnu
noseim, im ha mischpachat scheli, le yerushalaim. ha aliah-schelanu ha
schmoneah.

shalom we trischat shalom chaver!
quintus quinctilius varus galili
legatus germaniae superioris

HALLO MY FRIEND A.C.C.A.
I AM NOT JEWISH, BUT I AM A FRIEND OF THE ISRAELISH AND PALAESTINIEN PEOPLE.
I DO NOT SPEAK HEBREW, BUT I UNDERSTAND A LITTE BIT.
I WRITE LETTERS TO MY FRIENDS IN THE GALIL, NAZARETH, YERUSHALAIM, BETLEHEM, TEL AVIV, ACCO AND HAIFA....
I LIKE YERUSHALAIM, THE GOLDEN CITY!
IN THE NEXT YEAHR WE GO, WITH MY FAMILY, TO YERUSHALAIM AGAIN.
IT WILL BEE OUR 8 HOLYDAY-TRIP IN THIS TOWN.
PEACE AND GREATINGS MY FRIEND

quintus quinctilius varus galili
legatus germaniae superioris

--- In novaroma@--------, antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- wrote:
> Salvete quirites et amici,
>
> I post this in hopes to bring to light, a part of Roman history that
> many (still practicing Italkim or "Roman Jews") would like to share.
>
>
> This is in a preface of an Italkim cook book. If you would like
further
> information on this, contact me personally. I would be more than
happy
> to share it with you.
>
> " The Jews in Italy "
>
> "Although most of us think of Italy as the cradle of
Catholicism,
> in fact, the oldest Jewsish community in the world is in Rome. Jews
> have been in Italy since the second century BCE, arriving from
> settlements in Palestine when Judah Maccabeus formed an alliance
with
> Rome. After the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in ACE 70,
more
> Jews came to the city, many as prisoners of war. A relife on the
arch
> of Titus in the Colloseum, depicts the carrying away of the menorah
> from the Temple. At the end of the first century, some 30,000 Jews
> lived in Rome, settled around Trastevere and the Isola Tiburina.
> Italian Jews fall into three major strains. The Italkim are Jews who
> have been in Italy since the second century BCE. The Sephardim came
> from Spain and Prtugal after the Spanish inquisition of 1492. The
> Ashkenazim settled in the norther parts of Italy. The French Jews in
> Piedmontm the German Jews in Friuli and Trieste, others in Mantua
and
> Ferrara."
>
>
> As I continue to gather information on this subject. I can
> offer more of my own personal stories of my fellow Romans
> who call themselves Italkim. Most of their costoms take me back to
the
> Roma that we all know and love. Down to their katuba (Jewish
marriage
> licensce of sorts). Where the love for Roma is very evident.
> This makes me feel even more (if possible) compelled to raise my
> children within this culture in which I adore. Because of the fact
that
> even with all the time that has past. And all of the horrors of
those
> who would rather see a person die because of their beliefs. The
Italkim
> have kept the culture intwined with their God. For this, they have
my
> most humble respect.As well as a familial embrace as Romans.
>
>
>
> Dii te ament quirites et shalom mei amici Italkim!
> A. Corvus Septimius Arloro


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Aeternia search and Dalmaticus regret
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:30:22 -0400

Salvete,

When I first saw this post, I actually thought you missed me Alexander! (I
was kidding). Sorry for the long absences, and e-mail changes, suburbia
happens. Anyway, Alexander or anyone else may contact me at the following
alternate address SnarkMistress@-------- oh and by the way Alexander if you
hear any word from Nocturnia tell her I said hello. Remember civis stay
peachy.

Valete,
Aeternia

>From: alexprobus1@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Aeternia search and Dalmaticus regret
>Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:04:42 -0000
>
>Salvete omnes,
>
>I would be very glad if Aeternia will contact me ASAP. As she have
>changed her email address few times I am not very sure about her
>current one. I would need to contact her according to some Pannonian
>provincial administration issues.
>I would also like to express my deep regret on my friend Dalmaticus'
>resignation. I contacted him and hope he will reconsider his
>decision. His resignation will be a great loss for Nova Roma. As I
>got a web status only on this list and do visit it from time to time
>only, I got no idea about what have happend with Dalmaticus here.
>Anyway, such insults as fascist etc just because Dalmaticus is a
>serviceman can not be acceptable. I very much hope Dalmaticus will
>reconsider and will return to his friends.
>
>Bene valete
>
>Alexander I.C. Probus
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:51:01 -0000

Salvete Decime Iuni et Omnes,

>>I have just been watching quite a good TV program about the
annihilation of Quintilius Varus' army at the hands of Arminius and
the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest.<<

The program touched on the implications for subsequant European
history and made some quite dramatic conclusions. It called the
battle 'one of the most important events in European history' and one
that has shaped modern Europe. This was based on the premise that the
defeat of the legions led to the end of the Imperial policy of
attempting to 'Romanize' Germania and consequently led to the
cultural division of Europe. This resulted, apparently, in the
subsequant wars such as the religous ones during the reformation, the
Napoleonic wars and even the first and second world wars that occured
last (!!!!!) century. The program also mentioned that rulers such as
Charlemagne, Frederick the 'Great', Kaiser Willhelm and even Hitler
himself would not have risen to power had Varus not so rashly marched
his troops into the trap Arminius had set.<<

You might be interested in a book titled "What If" edited by Robert
Cowley including essays by John Keegan, David McCullogh, Steven
Ambrose and others. The authors speculate how history may have been
changed if the outcome of certain military events had been different.

I can't recall who wrote the piece on Teutoburg, but he basically
agrees with the opinion above, speculating that even Hitler would not
have arose.

There are other essays covering battles from Salamis to D-Day. An
entertaining book.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	[novaroma] A Healthy Organization
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:01:58 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

I see the same tired old complaints about the content
of this list are surfacing again.

We are having an ongoing debate about the future of
Nova Roma. We have citizens who care enough about that
future to comment on it, to engage in active debates
over where Nova Roma should be, Next year or in a more
distant future. Citizens this is a sign of a vibrant
healthy organization.

Do you prefer a Nova Roma that is so apathetic that
it's jaded citizens don't bother replying to a post
that may change our future? That isn't an option,
because once our citizens reach that stage, Nova Roma
has NO future.

Are you unhappy with the openness of the Democratic
part of our government? Would you prefer we just a a
civil war to decide who the Princeps will be so you
can await his decessions, while having no input into
what they will be?

Some of you brag about how much mail you delete. There
is one post that I hope you don't forget to delete.
Your voter code, because you have insured that you are
incapable of casting an informed vote.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:19:31 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have just been watching quite a good TV program about the
annihilation of Quintilius Varus' army at the hands of Arminius and
the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest.
>
> The program touched on the implications for subsequant European
history and made some quite dramatic conclusions. It called the
battle 'one of the most important events in European history' and one
that has shaped modern Europe. This was based on the premise that the
defeat of the legions led to the end of the Imperial policy of
attempting to 'Romanize' Germania and consequently led to the
cultural division of Europe. This resulted, apparently, in the
subsequant wars such as the religous ones during the reformation, the
Napoleonic wars and even the first and second world wars that occured
last (!!!!!) century. The program also mentioned that rulers such as
Charlemagne, Frederick the 'Great', Kaiser Willhelm and even Hitler
himself would not have risen to power had Varus not so rashly marched
his troops into the trap Arminius had set.
>
> All of which made me think - the wars of the reformation happened
in a Christian Europe, not a pagan one - and a vast majority of
Europe was Christian at this time including Romanized and Germanic.
However, it was predominately the Germanic countries such as the
Rhine states and England that converted to Protestantism. Why?
>
> Napolean rose to power in a 'Romanized' country and went to war
against other 'Romanized' nations in addition to Germanic ones such
as Prussia. He also had Germanic allies. Can these events really be
traced back to Varus' defeat?
>
> The first and second world wars occured between various Romanized
and Germanic countries with more idealogical than cultural
significance. Italy allied with Germany during the Second World war
for example. As such, the programs conclusions would appear flawed -
right or wrong?
>
> Finally, what about England? First Romanized and then Germanicized -
where do we stand in the scheme of things? Would the Jutes, Angles
and Saxons even have come to these shores if Augustus had succeded
with his policy of settling Germania?
>
> My final question to you is, undoubtdely important though the
defeat was, especially for Rome and iron age Germany, was it such a
defing moment in European history as the program made out?
>
> I thank you in advance for your time.
>
> Valete,
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus.
>

Salve, Silane!

An interesting premise, although I think it's fair to say that no one
knows if other factors would have arisen and still caused the
cultural fragmentation that has characterized European history.

Why Germany became Protestant is probably, IMHO, due to the initially
local influence of Martin Luther, although my knowledge in this area
is lacking. England became Protestant for completely unrelated
reasons (Henry VIII and his marital status issues) - the fact that
both countries have Germanic origins is a coincidence, as far as this
issue goes.

I think it is fair to say that any military encounter that resulted
in the kind of major policy change involved here is of great
historical significance, but extrapolating out any more than a few
decades becomes more and more speculative as the time frame increases.

Interesting post - thanks for making it!

Vale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Some responses
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:27:19 -0000

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Excuse the fact that certain affairs at the beginning of the new
school year cause me to respond a bit tardily to this.

I am perfectly happy for the whole world to know that I have
informed the Senate of my willingness to serve until the end of the
present year as propraetor of the new Venedia province in which
I dwell. The Senate has also received two petitions requesting my
appointment from Petrus Artorius Longinus representing the
provincial population.

There is furthermore a very definite reason why I should be
governor of Venedia: there is no one else (as far as any of us know)
in the province who meets the Senate's objective qualifications for a
propraetor. Some months ago I appointed Longinus my Scriba Aedilicius
partly in order to give him the experience in a central government
job so that later he would have the qualifications too. He, however,
does not particularly want the post even when qualified, and does wish
me to have it. His judgement is based on his own priorities and
knowing me face to face.

Despite the customary vilifications of me, I have been carrying out
my duties at Aedilis quite creditably I think, for which assertion I
offer the following evidence:

(1) I worked with the other Aediles and others in initiating and
carrying out the last competition at the time of the Cerealia. For a
prise that in the end I was asked to make the final decision on, I
chose a Cornelian because she was best, which I think demonstrates my
objectivity in carrying out my public duties.

(2) I am presentely working with the other aediles and other officials
on the Ludi Romani and the sodalitas evaluations connected therewith.
I was, incidentally, the first of the four aediles to complete my
evaluations, which I feel are comprehensive and constructive, and will
be felt to be so when released.

(3) Both the welfare of the Plebs and legal affairs being natural
concerns of a plebeian aedile, I have been working to define the
nature of the problems faced by relative newcomers and the veterans
here, which is very important for the remedying of those problems. I
have also been active on the Nova Roman Civil Rights List at trying to
work with the others there to develop a consensus on the human rights
legislation that Nova Roma needs to protect all citizens, whether
patrician or plebeian.

(4) In response to Consul Vedius'"Friendly Challenge" to the four
aediles to hold a live NR meeting during our term of office, I with
much help from my Scriba Longinus have been organising a provincial
meeting for Venedia, which will take place late in October, thus
merging our aedilician duties and provincial interests in a happy
way.

I thus feel fully qualified for the post. If anyone casts doubt upon
this, it must be because of political differences. In my letter to the
Senate I frankly noted that many of the more conservative members of
that body and I have different political points of view. And I
suggested that that should be no impediment. And indeed I would say to
everyone that Nova Roma has to allow for a normal diversity of
political opinion - something that certainly existed in Republican
Rome. Both optimates and populares, both establishment supporters and
critics desiring improvement, all have a right to serve the Respublica
in both ellective and apoointive office.

In this case we have a chance for the Senate, where there is a
majority of optimates, to appoint a distinctive voice of the populares
to a position in their gift for which he is well and even specially
suited. If they do so, that will indicate that they are indeed capable
of thinking beyond their class and factional interest to the good of
Nova Roma as a whole, and that they are willing to judge according to
capability and not political persuasion.

It would be nice to think that this is so, and even nicer to see the
proof that it is so.

Valete!

From: Decimus Iunius Silanus <danedwardsuk@-------->
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2001 6:49 am
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Some responses

Salve,

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
<germa--------s@--------> wrote:

When taken in the context of Formosanus' established
pattern of behavior-- 
in which he has consistently villified Nova Roma as a
whole and described 
our system of government as a "nightmarish
bureaucracy"-- any indication 
that he would aspire to the position of governor of
the newly-created 
province of Venedia would naturally be suspect.
(Indeed-- one wonders why he 
would aspire to the position of Aedile, given his
contempt for our 
Republic.) 
 
As our governors are often seen as our "first line of
contact", it naturally 
behooves us to appoint individuals whose enthusiasm
for Nova Roma is not 
dulled by disdain for our organization. Surely an
individual who has shown 
outward contempt for Nova Roma and Her governmental
policies and 
institutions would make a poor spokesman for us in
the
position of governor. 
I speak here only in the most general terms, of
course. 
 
Senate traditions of confidentiality demand that I am
unable to comment 
directly on whether or not Formosanus has petitioned
the Senate to be 
appointed to the post of governor of Venedia. He may,
of course, confirm or 
deny such rumors should he choose. 
 
Vale, 
 
Flavius Vedius Germanicus, 
Consul 
 

I understand. There is evidently some long standing
antagonism between various individuals within our res
publica, certainly going on for longer than I have
been a citizen. As a consequence I have little
understanding of the background of such 'conflicts'.
Thankyou for your explanation. I suppose as NR's
population continues to grow and we become even more
successful, concordia will become increasingly
difficult to maintain. Such is human nature
unfortunately.

Vale,

Decimus Iunius Silanus.


Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No1604 - Vindolandia bearing fruit
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:45:42 -0400

Salvete omnibus

For anyone interested in this topic try;

"Life and Letters on the Roman Frontier" by Alan K. Bowman
ISBN 0-415-92025-6
Routlege 1994

Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:25:32 -0400
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Subject: Vindolandia bearing fruit

Salvete!

I happened on the following article, and thought folks here would find it
interesting, not only for the story itself (which is pretty darned
impressive) but also because Nova Roma recently made a donation to the
Vindolandia Trust. :-)

-----

Story of a slave is liberated by hi-tech scanner

BY NIGEL HAWKES AND MARK HENDERSON

FAINT messages on Roman writing tablets unearthed near Hadrian's Wall have
been deciphered using a computer scanning technique.

The first analysis of the texts has already revealed that some slaves were
remarkably well-integrated into the society of Vindolandia, Northumberland,
in the second century. Further work on about 200 similar wooden tablets
promises to reveal much more about the economic and social structure of the
garrison settlement.

The tablets, recovered over three decades, were originally filled with wax
and written on using metal styluses. Only faint scratches survived. The new
system, developed by Michael Brady, Professor of Information Engineering at
Oxford University, enhances the text with raking light that casts shadows
which can be picked up by computer analysis. The system is being adapted to
improve analysis of mammograms, in which wispy fibres must be identified
against breast tissue.

Alan Bowman, of the Centre for the Study of Ancient Documents at Oxford
University, said that the first three tablets to be deciphered had added to
knowledge of Vindolandia.
>SNIP<
(From http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001305847,00.html)

-----

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:09:39 +0100

Salve Gai Popilli,

>You might be interested in a book titled "What If" edited by Robert
>Cowley including essays by John Keegan, David McCullogh, Steven
>Ambrose and others. The authors speculate how history may have been
>changed if the outcome of certain military events had been different.

>I can't recall who wrote the piece on Teutoburg, but he basically
>agrees with the opinion above, speculating that even Hitler would not
>have arose.

>There are other essays covering battles from Salamis to D-Day. An
>entertaining book.

>Valete,
>Gaius Popillius Laenas

Thankyou for the suggestion - I'm always on the lookout for a good book.

Vale,

Decimus Iunius Silanus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] I'm a Bad American
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:09:51 -0000

Salvete Omnes!

Ted Nugent's statement (lifted from another writer or not) that "I'm a
Bad American-this pretty much sums it up for me" certainly seems
accurate. His endless desire to be tough, his xenophobia, his
misrepresentations of people and programmes and governments
seriously and sincerely trying to improve the world, all bespeak
immaturity and confusion of mind.

I do not disagree with every word he says, and I laud him for his
charitable gifts - but as a moral or political philosopher he is a
total failure. Too much hate backed with a stubbornness which he
obviously thinks we are to admire. I don't. Being stubborn in the
cause of ignorance and prejudice is no virtue.

I think it might be relevant for us as Nova Romans to read this and
then read a few chapters of Marcus Aurelius. Which of the two
individuals is more mature and more admirable as a human being would,
I think, be immediately apparent to just about everybody.

Valete!

M. Apollonius Formosanus
Aedilis Plebeius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Healthy Organization
From:	PompeiaAntoniaCaesaria <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

I don't feel it's the subject matter of the post that
these individuals (if I may be so bold as to assume to
interpret this) object to as much as much as the
manner in which the discussion is conducted. When I
first joined Nova Roma I had no interest in politics
but my interest grew reading this list. It has been a
very educational journey but a painful one as well. I
have been enlightened at a price. I have had to
endure reading many unpleasant and surprisingly
hostile posts and found myself wondering at times why
am I doing this to myself and whether Nova Roma was
worth it. All of us here are students of Rome. We
are all the same. Some of us have more knowledge but
with that knowledge also comes responsibility.
Responsibility towards others less learned or perhaps
not as astute. Those with more education and knowledge
need to show more tolerance and more patience not
less. I feel that some on this list tend to forget or
don't care that as eager as some of us are to learn we
also have a limit as to what we will endure to do so.
My area of interest in the past has not been Roman.
My major in college was not Roman History but I am
here now to learn about Rome. Does that make me
stupid or less worthy than someone here with a PHD in
Classical History? I feel that I deserve, as everyone
on this list, the same respect regardless of my past
knowledge of Rome as long as I am willing to learn.
No matter how much you think you know there is always
someone out there who knows more. Let us all be
humbled by that. Each time any of us sends a post it
may be read by someone who is reading their very first
post and has just joined Nova Roma. Someone who is
eager, excited, anxious and willing to be part of our
group. Or someone who was inactive and now wishes to
participate more or someone who had a focus in another
area in Nova Roma and now wants to participate on this
list. Please, let us keep that in mind when posting.
Regardless of our backgrounds we are all here to learn
something. Education needs to rule here not ego but
the manner in which the material is presented is just
as important as the material itself and I personally
don't want to feel as though I'm putting my dignitas
on the line every time I send a post.

Vale,

Pompeia Antonia Caesaria

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I see the same tired old complaints about the
> content
> of this list are surfacing again.
>
> We are having an ongoing debate about the future of
> Nova Roma. We have citizens who care enough about
> that
> future to comment on it, to engage in active debates
> over where Nova Roma should be, Next year or in a
> more
> distant future. Citizens this is a sign of a vibrant
> healthy organization.
>
> Do you prefer a Nova Roma that is so apathetic that
> it's jaded citizens don't bother replying to a post
> that may change our future? That isn't an option,
> because once our citizens reach that stage, Nova
> Roma
> has NO future.
>
> Are you unhappy with the openness of the Democratic
> part of our government? Would you prefer we just a a
> civil war to decide who the Princeps will be so you
> can await his decessions, while having no input into
> what they will be?
>
> Some of you brag about how much mail you delete.
> There
> is one post that I hope you don't forget to delete.
> Your voter code, because you have insured that you
> are
> incapable of casting an informed vote.
>
> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant
> messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
>

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	burdigalus@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:18:31 -0000

Gaius Etcheverius Burdigalus Decimu Iunio Silano et Omnes SPD

Salvete!

I'm by no means a professional historian but I am a student of
history. This is a good question because there are casual lines that
can be drawn from one historical instance to another, but I don't
think that a line can be drawn that far across time.
If I remember this incident properly, Quintilius Varus lost three
legions in the Teutoburg forests of Germania on a supposedly punitive
mission. The loss of these legions did cause Caesar Augustus a great
deal of worry late in his career but I don't see where a direct
causal line can be drawn between this battle and the rise of a 20th
century monster. Even though this loss (Due, in my opinion Varus'
ambitions far outstripping both his intelligence and talent as a
military leader and tactician)was approximately 1/3 of the total of
the Roman army, Augustus had, before his own death, replaced these
three legions. The loss, although traumatic to Augustus didn't, in my
opinion, dramatically affect the course of the Empire.
Of far more importance in the makeup of 18th and 19th century
Europe were the Gallatian campaigns of G. Julius Caesar and the
administration and organization of these conquered territories by the
empire long after the death of Julius Caesar. The diplomatic theories
of the 18th century and the 19th century (specifically, the
unification of Germany by Bizmark) brought about the conditions that
made the first world war in 1914 possible. It was Bizmark's
unquestionable talent at "realpolitik" that kept Europe at peace
after the unification of Germany. Upon his death, realpolitik began
to unravel The result of WWI (the treaty of Versaille), and the
subsequent political meltdown of the Kaiser's empire, and the general
lack of will in France and England to enforce the provisions of that
treaty that were the main causes of WWII. Although the treaty itself
was incredibly flawed and unjust and would not have lasted much
longer had it been enforced.
Varus' defeat had nothing to do with the unification of Germany
under Bizmark's realpolitik in the 19th century, so I don't see the
link that the producers of that television program claim existed.

Valete!
G. Etcheverius Burdigalus

--- In novaroma@--------, "Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have just been watching quite a good TV program about the
annihilation of Quintilius Varus' army at the hands of Arminius and
the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest.
>
> The program touched on the implications for subsequant European
history and made some quite dramatic conclusions. It called the
battle 'one of the most important events in European history' and one
that has shaped modern Europe. This was based on the premise that the
defeat of the legions led to the end of the Imperial policy of
attempting to 'Romanize' Germania and consequently led to the
cultural division of Europe. This resulted, apparently, in the
subsequant wars such as the religous ones during the reformation, the
Napoleonic wars and even the first and second world wars that occured
last (!!!!!) century. The program also mentioned that rulers such as
Charlemagne, Frederick the 'Great', Kaiser Willhelm and even Hitler
himself would not have risen to power had Varus not so rashly marched
his troops into the trap Arminius had set.
>
> All of which made me think - the wars of the reformation happened
in a Christian Europe, not a pagan one - and a vast majority of
Europe was Christian at this time including Romanized and Germanic.
However, it was predominately the Germanic countries such as the
Rhine states and England that converted to Protestantism. Why?
>
> Napolean rose to power in a 'Romanized' country and went to war
against other 'Romanized' nations in addition to Germanic ones such
as Prussia. He also had Germanic allies. Can these events really be
traced back to Varus' defeat?
>
> The first and second world wars occured between various Romanized
and Germanic countries with more idealogical than cultural
significance. Italy allied with Germany during the Second World war
for example. As such, the programs conclusions would appear flawed -
right or wrong?
>
> Finally, what about England? First Romanized and then Germanicized -
where do we stand in the scheme of things? Would the Jutes, Angles
and Saxons even have come to these shores if Augustus had succeded
with his policy of settling Germania?
>
> My final question to you is, undoubtdely important though the
defeat was, especially for Rome and iron age Germany, was it such a
defing moment in European history as the program made out?
>
> I thank you in advance for your time.
>
> Valete,
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] shalom chaverim! Re: Italkim = Roman Jews.
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:10:29 -0700 (PDT)

--- Quintus Quinctilius Varus Galili
<quinctilius.varus@--------> wrote:
> shalom chaver a. corvus ceptimius arloro,
>
> ani lo jehudi, aval ani chaver gadol me ha israel we
> me ha phalastin.
> ani lo medaber ivrit, aval ani mevin kzat,kzat,kzat!
> ani lichtov im
> chaverim me galil, nazarat, yeushalaim (teddy
> kollek), betlahem, tel
> aviv, acco, haifa .....
> ani ohev meod yerushalaim ha shel zahav! ba shanah
> habaa anachnu
> noseim, im ha mischpachat scheli, le yerushalaim. ha
> aliah-schelanu ha
> schmoneah.
>
> shalom we trischat shalom chaver!
> quintus quinctilius varus galili
> legatus germaniae superioris
>
> HALLO MY FRIEND A.C.C.A.
> I AM NOT JEWISH, BUT I AM A FRIEND OF THE ISRAELISH
> AND PALAESTINIEN PEOPLE.
> I DO NOT SPEAK HEBREW, BUT I UNDERSTAND A LITTE BIT.
> I WRITE LETTERS TO MY FRIENDS IN THE GALIL,
> NAZARETH, YERUSHALAIM, BETLEHEM, TEL AVIV, ACCO AND
> HAIFA....
> I LIKE YERUSHALAIM, THE GOLDEN CITY!
> IN THE NEXT YEAHR WE GO, WITH MY FAMILY, TO
> YERUSHALAIM AGAIN.
> IT WILL BEE OUR 8 HOLYDAY-TRIP IN THIS TOWN.
> PEACE AND GREATINGS MY FRIEND
>
> quintus quinctilius varus galili
> legatus germaniae superioris
>
>
Ave Quinte,

It is a pleasure to meet you! Have you been
to Roma, perhaps? Someday, I will travel the whole
mediterranean! This is one of my primary goals in
life.
If they can tear me away from the Coloseum, that is.
:-)

Live Well my friend!
A. Corvus Septimius Arloro

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:20:09 +0100

Salve Rufe Iuli,

>An interesting premise, although I think it's fair to say that no one
>knows if other factors would have arisen and still caused the
>cultural fragmentation that has characterized European history.

>Why Germany became Protestant is probably, IMHO, due to the initially
>local influence of Martin Luther, although my knowledge in this area
>is lacking. England became Protestant for completely unrelated
>reasons (Henry VIII and his marital status issues) - the fact that
>both countries have Germanic origins is a coincidence, as far as this
>issue goes.

Henry VIII was merely the catalyst for the English Reformation. Protestantism was already a very potent force in Tudor England, amongst both the populace at large and particularly amongst Henry's ministers. If the Pope had allowed Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn he would very probably have happily remained a Roman Catholic. Undoubtedly he would have been horrified at the extent of the Reformation under his children Edward VI and Elizabeth I.

>I think it is fair to say that any military encounter that resulted
>in the kind of major policy change involved here is of great
>historical significance, but extrapolating out any more than a few
>decades becomes more and more speculative as the time frame increases.

Exactly what I think. Although the TV program in question was quite good - I believe it emphasised the 'what if' scenario in order to make it more relevant to TV viewers who may not be as interested in Roman history as you or I.

>Interesting post - thanks for making it!

Thanks for replying.

Vale,

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Gathering
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:21:48 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

I'm cross posting this to the main list in the hope of catching our Provincial neighbors not on the Ambor Waves list.
I will be in Portland on Sat. the 8th. I don't know the name of the park but I'm posting directions to it at the end of this post. If anyone recognizes the park by the location please let the rest of us know the name. I'll be at the rugby match there at the park. Look for the large fellow with a knee brace on. (I won't be playing due to an injury).
Also, we have many new cives in our Province. Please consider yourselves invited to join the Ambor Waves mailing list by following the link in my sig line.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Hitting "send" too soon
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:23:06 -0700

Salve,

Here's those directions:

DIRECTIONS- I-5 SOUTH AND TAKE THE PORTLAND AVE EXIT
PORTLAND AVE UNTIL IT ENDS AND YOU MUST GO RIGHT
FOLLOW THAT STREET ABOUT 10 BLOCKS TO WOOLSEY
RIGHT ON WOOLSEY AND THE PITCH IS ON THE RIGHT
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 18:33:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@-------->
wrote:
> Salve Rufe Iuli,
>
> >An interesting premise, although I think it's fair to say that no
one
> >knows if other factors would have arisen and still caused the
> >cultural fragmentation that has characterized European history.
>
> >Why Germany became Protestant is probably, IMHO, due to the
initially
> >local influence of Martin Luther, although my knowledge in this
area
> >is lacking. England became Protestant for completely unrelated
> >reasons (Henry VIII and his marital status issues) - the fact that
> >both countries have Germanic origins is a coincidence, as far as
this
> >issue goes.
>
> Henry VIII was merely the catalyst for the English Reformation.
Protestantism was already a very potent force in Tudor England,
amongst both the populace at large and particularly amongst Henry's
ministers. If the Pope had allowed Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn he
would very probably have happily remained a Roman Catholic.
Undoubtedly he would have been horrified at the extent of the
Reformation under his children Edward VI and Elizabeth I.

Thanks for the clarification - my knowledge of Tudor England is
somewhat sketchy.

>
> >I think it is fair to say that any military encounter that
resulted
> >in the kind of major policy change involved here is of great
> >historical significance, but extrapolating out any more than a few
> >decades becomes more and more speculative as the time frame
increases.
>
>
> Exactly what I think. Although the TV program in question was quite
good - I believe it emphasised the 'what if' scenario in order to
make it more relevant to TV viewers who may not be as interested in
Roman history as you or I.
>

The program's premise may be speculative, but it is interesting. Even
more so than the Saturday Night Live parody of such programs, "What
If Eleanor Roosevelt Could Fly?"

Vale!

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Defeat of Varus.
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, D. Iuni.

--- Decimus Iunius Silanus <danedwardsuk@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have just been watching quite a good TV program about the
> annihilation of Quintilius Varus' army at the hands of Arminius and
> the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest.
>
> The program touched on the implications for subsequant European
> history and made some quite dramatic conclusions. It called the
> battle 'one of the most important events in European history' and one
> that has shaped modern Europe. This was based on the premise that the
> defeat of the legions led to the end of the Imperial policy of
> attempting to 'Romanize' Germania and consequently led to the
> cultural division of Europe. This resulted, apparently, in the
> subsequant wars such as the religous ones during the reformation, the
> Napoleonic wars and even the first and second world wars that occured
> last (!!!!!) century. The program also mentioned that rulers such as
> Charlemagne, Frederick the 'Great', Kaiser Willhelm and even Hitler
> himself would not have risen to power had Varus not so rashly marched
> his troops into the trap Arminius had set.
>
> All of which made me think - the wars of the reformation happened in
> a Christian Europe, not a pagan one - and a vast majority of Europe
> was Christian at this time including Romanized and Germanic. However,
> it was predominately the Germanic countries such as the Rhine states
> and England that converted to Protestantism. Why?

An extremely interesting question. I would like to toss a couple of
ideas for you all to consider:

1.- The Germanic tribes originally converted to Arrianism, a Christian
"heresy", and not to mainstream (and Roman) Catholocism.

2.- The cultural and linguistic differences between germanic and latin
Europe might have created a gap between their conceptions of religion.
Think that protestantism closely follows the linguistic divide in
Europe (although there are exceptions, of course).

> Napolean rose to power in a 'Romanized' country and went to war
> against other 'Romanized' nations in addition to Germanic ones such
> as Prussia. He also had Germanic allies. Can these events really be
> traced back to Varus' defeat?

Certainly not. But German-French past animosity can be traced to that
time. It was a cultural and linguistic difference what created a
permanent division of the Frankish Empire (not to mention the simple
existance of the Frankish Empire).

> The first and second world wars occured between various Romanized and
> Germanic countries with more idealogical than cultural significance.
> Italy allied with Germany during the Second World war for example. As
> such, the programs conclusions would appear flawed - right or wrong?

Same as above, I would say.

> Finally, what about England? First Romanized and then Germanicized -
> where do we stand in the scheme of things? Would the Jutes, Angles
> and Saxons even have come to these shores if Augustus had succeded
> with his policy of settling Germania?

Probably not. Britain would have been truly romanized.

> My final question to you is, undoubtdely important though the defeat
> was, especially for Rome and iron age Germany, was it such a defing
> moment in European history as the program made out?

It certainly was. The deaths of Drusus and Germanicus (two very capable
Roman commanders) changed history.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: List Content (was RE: RESIGNATION)
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:32:45 -0000

Salvete esteemed Counsul et Omnes,

>>Rather than merely complaining that there's too much rancor here,
or too much politics, or too much pie-in-the-sky dreaming, or too much
whatever-you-don't-like, would it not make more sense for you to
start athread on something that _does_ interest you? THAT is the way
to effect change<<

Hear, hear!

I have much respect for Dalmaticus (Jeff Smith), but I don't agree
with his opinion of the "religious atmosphere" of Nova Roma. I am a
Christain (Roman Catholic) and I have never felt persecuted,
offended, or put upon in any way by practictioners of the Religio.

The "last straw" post , IMO, was not a bashing of Christianity at
all, but a comment on people who try to push their beliefs (religious
or otherwise) on others. If Fortunatus (or anyone else) was posting
anti-Christain messages or going door to door trying to convert
people to Paganism, that would be different.

Again, IMO, Dalmaticus (again with all respect to him)is very serious
about his religion which happens to be a very conservative
denomination. If it wasn't Fortunatus' post that was the "last
straw", it soon would have been someone else's.

As to the "facist" part, I can't speak to that except to say I never
read anything I would interpret that way.

What I do find irritating are these posts like, "Yeah, I know what
Dalmaticus is talking about. The Main List is this or that". Take
Vedius' advice. If you don't like the topics, change the subject.

With respect to all.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Defeat of Varus.
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:46:08 -0000

Salve Gai Etcheveri et Salve Omnes,

In the essay I mentioned, the author points out that Varus replaced
Tiberius who was having considerable success against the Germans.
Once Varus was defeated, Rome withdrew from Germania and Augustus
advised Tiberius not to expand the Empire.

The premise of ther essay is that a Romanized Germany would not have
evolved as independently as actually happened. He also speculates
that Germany would have developed a more centralized government
instead of the fragmented principalities that developed. Further, he
says Martin Luther who was sheltered by some of these Princes would
have had a much harder time and perhaps would have been executed.

Of course, it's all speculation. That's why I described the book as
entertaining - you really can't take it seriously ;-)

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: List Content (was RE: RESIGNATION)
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:58:30 -0400

Salve,

> As to the "facist" part, I can't speak to that except to say I never
> read anything I would interpret that way.

I *believe* that is a reference to a comment made quite a while ago on the
Back Alley list. As someone else pointed out, it is more evidence that a
"bunch" of things led to his decision, not just the one post here on the
Main List.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Defeat of Varus.
From:	"Marek Grajek" <MarekJG@-------->
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:08:29 +0200

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Decimus Iunius Silanus [mailto:danedwardsuk@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:56 AM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Defeat of Varus.

Salve,

Speculative history is in interesting area, as there are few if any
constraints of your imagination in constructing the alternative versions of
the history based on the assumptions "what if"...

No doubt Warrus's defeat made a real impression on the contemporary Romans.
August is reported to have cried in his dreams "Warrus, give me back my
legions!" a long time after the battle. The numbers of the legions
annihilated in the Teutoburg Forest were regarded as fatal, so no legions
bearing their number were ever recreated in the Roman army. All this sounds
surprising considering that in the Roman history there were many
defeatscomparable in size. The catastrophe of the Crassus's legion at
Carrhae cost more lives than Teutoburg. In the later empire the suppresion
of the mincers' uprising was also very bloody.
The only explanation I can offer to this phaenomenon is the historical
context of the event. After the period of the bloody civil wars August was
able to establish peace, ceremoniously closing the Janus's gate. He seemed
to suceed in everything he undertook, in any spere of life: war,
administration, culture... Suddenly the Warrus's catastrophe undermined his
picture of the favourit of the Fate and History...

I believe the conclusion stating that Teutoburg has changed the course of
the history is slightly exagerated. I would even argue in favour of the
contardictory thesis - it has prolongued the life of the Roman empire. From
the study of empires preceding and following Rome we know that until
recently they suffered from the crucial problem - communications. Efficient
transmission of orders from the center to the outskirts of the emipre, tax
collection, troops relocation, finally commerce and cultural exchange depend
on the communications within the organism. Romans did a lot to improve it.
In fact the Roman road system is regarded by many as of the fundamental
factors of their sucess in constructing the emipre. And even this perfect
system was unable to assure the coordination of efforts in the Western and
Eastern part of the state once the surrouding lost its static character.
Division of power was the logical solution. Once the situation around and
within the state became even more complicated, further divisions created the
mosaic of nations, languages and interests we know as the contemporary
Europe.
Rome acted mostly in a reasonable way, self-limiting its interest to the
areas it could effectively control given its limited means. Remember the
Hadrian Wall, remember voluntary abandoning Dacia. I am convinced that
incorporation of the entire Germania into the Roman emipre would stress the
Roman communication lines beyond the limits. Do not forget the limitations
of the ancient communications: sea navigation, rivers, scarce road system.
The vast areas of Germania, with their deep forests and swamps, were
practically unaccesible by the Roman standards.

I can hardly agree with the thesis linking the tribes known to the Rome as
the Germans with Charlemagne, Napoleon, Frederic the Great or Hitler. The
way we learn the history tends to overlook the period that shaped the
environment we live in the contemporary Europe - the Great Migration. It is
curious, because I can recognize a similar pattern in our knowledge of the
other areas and periods. We learn a lot about the classical period in the
Greek history, then we overjump the hellenistic period to switch directly
into the roman history. We learn about Rome and then jump directly to
Charlemagne. In this way we forget that the foundations of the contemporary
Europe were laid in the Dark Ages, between the V and VII centuries. The
social and tribal structures described by the Roman historians were
annihilated during the Great Migration. Remember the story of the Gothic
tribes, landing at the Vistula mould in the I century, migrating to the
Crimea peninsula, then attacking the Constantinople, moving to Italy,
founding their state in Gaul and Iberic peninsula, finally landing in Africa
and founding the Vandal state... We have to agree that the tribes founding
their states on the ruins of Rome did not use a lot of the Roman experience,
relying merely on their tribal habits and traditions. Being able to reject
the Romanitas in the core Roman lands (Italy), they would have managed to do
the same in the (hipotetically) conquered German areas.

Cneus Marius Aquila

---------------------------------------------------------------
KONKURS: Niedobre miejsca - 50 ksiazek W. Whartona do wygrania!
http://szkola.interia.pl/wharton/strona.html?co=13


Subject:	[novaroma] Ludi Romani: The Contest of Thalia - Comic Essays
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:00:52 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

In co�peration with the Musaea of the Collegium Thaliae (Pompeia
Cornelia
Strabo) of the Sodalitas Musarum, and its Coryphaeus (Sextus Apollonius
Draco), I, Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius, do hereby by
this edictum
declare this contest is opened.

Its purpose: to select and present some of the entries of this contest
to the people,
for their *comic* value.

The following two questions must be answered in no more than 1500
characters:

"What is best about Nova Roma?" and "What is worst about Nova Roma?"

The selection will be made by M. Cornelius Scipio, T. Sertorius
Albinus and M. Arminius Maior, with the advice of the three organisers.

Its rules:
* Participants must be citizens of Nova Roma.
* Participants may send in multiple entries.
* The language of the entry is free, as long as its author
can appoint
someone to translate it into another language understandible to
the three
organisers.
* The following file formats are accepted: *.doc, *.txt
* The entry must be sent to the following three addresses:
bvm3@-------- ; hendrik.meuleman@pi.be and trog99@hotmail.com
* The entry must be sent in no later than September 14
* The selection shall be announced on September 16

Enjoy, cives, enjoy!

Valete!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Defeat of Varus.
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:20:34 EDT

In a message dated 9/6/01 2:51:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
danedwardsuk@-------- writes:

> My final question to you is, undoubtdely important though the defeat was,
> especially for Rome and iron age Germany, was it such a defing moment in
> European history as the program made out?
>
>
Salvete!
Well, it was enough to get included in Cresey's "Decisive Battles of the
World.

Teutoburger Wald, Lat. saltus, Teutoburginensis, is a land mark defeat for
several reasons. Germania was the next logical conquest on the Roman
timetable, and it was on its way to being pacified, operations were
commencing against Marobodus in Bohemia by Tiberius and Drusus when the
Pannonian revolt happened (CE 6). Augustus was forced to transfer most of
his Germanic assets (modern word) to Pannonia to quickly crush the revolt.
This allowed two things to occur. 1. it gave the Germans breathing room, 2.
It allowed the Germans to eliminate the pro-Roman tribes. During this time a
commander of a German auxiliary unit of Cherusci, traditionally known as
Herman (Roman name Arminius) rise to prominence.
Herman apparently (according to Dio Cassius) was not stupid. He understood
history. Moreso his also understood how the Romans defeated Gaul, by divide
and conquror. He saw the same thing happening to his country. Ironically
had his Cherubic unit been transferred to Pannonia, to help put down the
revolt, what was about happen never would have. But Fortuna and Fate
conspired against the Romans. Augustus was convinced only Romans were needed
to put down the revolt. The bulk of the auxiliaries stayed in their
provinces.

Herman started to organize, silently, a minor revolt. He made alliances,
eliminated his detractors and strengthened the Germans for the upcoming
struggle against the Romans.
Meanwhile the Legate of the province, Q. Quinctilius Varus, husband of
Augustus' niece, with three legiones ( XVII, VIII, XIX ) in Germania were
conducting operations against the Suebi east of the Veser (Central Germany.)
Herman, knew that Romans had to return in fall to their winter quarters,
planned his rebellion accordingly. As the Romans left their camp near
today's Minden, to return to their fortress on the Lippe (Aliso) they had to
cross a large area of forest in the modern Doren region. Since the column
was returning in autumn, they had all their equipment and dependents with
them.
The legiones, Cassius Dio tell us, were not at full strength. So we can
assume 4000-3600 per legio, which gives 12000-10800 for the main force 5
units Auxiliaries average 400 so 2,000 three Alae of Gauls average 450 so
1350. These were useless in the upcoming struggle, having to dismount to
fight. This gives the total of around 15350 fighting men. The average
German tribe could put around 2000 fighting men into the field so the Romans
faced similar numbers in the rebellious tribes. The problem was that with
the dependents, the Roman column stretched 9 miles in terrain that was not
conducive to Roman way of fighting, and was ideal for the German.

Which is what happened. Quinctilius believed he was in friendly territory,
Herman made sure he was not. Over a period of three days, the Roman column
was hit rapidly with sharp attacks which the Romans drove off, over and over
again. The Romans were professionals,
the Germans amateurs, but each time they drove them off the Romans took
casualties, and the Germans gained confidence. Varus, finally realized that
Arminius had betrayed him, burnt his baggage, and raced towards the Lippe and
salvation. "Raced" was the operative word. Had they been able to move
quickly or were on the plains, they would have quickly routed their enemy and
left them behind. Struggling through the woods on the trail, the Roman army
was slowly butchered. Finally trapped in the Doren ravine, the remnants of
the army surrendered according to Velleius, and Florus. The Germans had won.
The survivors who got away from the rout rallied at Aliso, and were trapped
by the besieging Germans, but escaped using a stratagem. The camp prefect
had the Conicers blow a blast, that echoed of the nearby hills and convinced
the Germans that Roman rescue units were at hand. The unsophisticated
Germans scattered, and the Roman command down to two cohors escaped. The
battle was over, but Germania was aflame in revolt. To be fair when
Marobodus chief of powerful Marcomanni received Varus' head to persuade him
to join the revolt, he maintained his alliance with Rome, and sent the head
to Rome for proper internment
Why did this happen? It is easy to say Varus was an arrogant idiot, and
deserved what he got. However his conduct in the campaign up till then was
very good. Hard to believe that he would ignore Segestes the Cherusci's
warning. However Segestes was obviously trying to cultivate favor as a
rival to Arminius, so Varus disregarded it. Not knowing the state of German
politics at the time we might have done the same. As for the why of the
advance to the Doren pass in highly unfavorable terrain, Varus was in
friendly territory and this trail lead in a straight line to the fortress at
Aliso. Remember the weather was terrible, it was autumn, and the Roman force
had been summer campaigning, they were without winter gear. It makes sense
that his Tribunes and Legates would urge him to take the shortest path to get
the 9 mile column across the mountains.
As long as the Romans could fight the Germans hand to hand, they stood a good
chance of winning. All three Roman authors agree, that Roman Cohortes
scattered their opposition when the Germans would stay and fight. However as
the running fight went on, Roman morale dropped and German morale rose. And
that was the real reason for the defeat.
What happened to the prisoners? All three authors are silent on this, but we
get a hint from
Seneca in Ep.47 "It is said that the foremost citizens of Rome were taking
into slavery by Arminius' Germans and men who might of hoped to enter the
Senate someday spent the rest of their lives as shepherds or doorkeepers."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:14:54 -0400

Primus Ritulius Militus writes:

> A little about me. I am a member of other
> recreation groups, namely the SCA, of which I am
> second in command of a Viking household.

Salve, Militus. I too have done the SCA thing, found that
I liked the rapier fencing, and liked some of the people,
but for reasons of time and other demands I drifted away.
I hope you find that NR satisfies whatever you're hoping
to find here.

> I am mostly interested in the areas of militarism

So come on over and join the SodalitasMilitarium!
I'm the Assensai Major over there, and I'm sure we'd
be pleased to have you. Contact me in e-mail if you're
interested.

> and societal
> valour as seen and brought into play by Nova Roma and
> the people therein.

Yes, there's something honestly refreshing about the
Roman approach to life.

> I am also doing research on a
> type of Roman coin given to soldiers featuring sexual
> positions. If anyone knows the Roman name for these
> coins or has any information on them, please contact
> me.

I've never heard about those. (I can think of several
off-color jokes here, but I'll spare the citizens my
attempts at humor.)

> I am currently acquiring an education in computer
> science at my local college.

Best of luck in your studies. There are a fair number
of CS experts around here. If you run into difficulty,
you may find that another citizen can suggest a line
of effort that will prove fruitful.

> I hope to find a faction
> of Nova Roma in the Oregon area so that I may meet the
> acquaintance of other Nova Romans and possibly enjoy a
> hearty round of tali.

Alas, I'm on the other side of the continent from you.
But I wish you well.

> Unlike a politician, a soldier has the good fortune of
> knowing who him enemies are.

(sometimes)

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Defeat of Varus.
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:31:17 -0400

Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:

> I have just been watching quite a good TV program about the
> annihilation of Quintilius Varus' army at the hands of Arminius and
> the Germanic tribes in the Teutoburg forest.

A timely presentation. The battle took place on the 9th - 11th of
September, in 9 AD (CE).

> The program touched on the implications for subsequant European
> history and made some quite dramatic conclusions.

It's a sad fact of television production that such 'dramatic' claims
get made all the time from these kinds of popularized documentaries.

> It called the battle 'one of the most important events in European
> history' and one that has shaped modern Europe.

That is true enough. The battle of Teutoburger-Wald is recognized in
military circles as one of the 10 or 15 most strategically important
battles in western history. Though the way it 'shaped modern Europe'
had more to do with the cultural identification of the 19th century
Germans with Arminius (Hermann) than with any direct consequence of
his victory.

> This was based on the premise that the
> defeat of the legions led to the end of the Imperial policy of
> attempting to 'Romanize' Germania

That much is true. The border of the Empire was set at the Rhine
and remained there.

> and consequently led to the cultural division of Europe.

I think that claim is horribly simplistic. The cultural divisions
of Europe involve a number of things. Some argument can be made
that the network of Roman roads provided western Europe with an
integration that eastern Europe didn't have, but even that can not
explain all of the cultural divisions between western and eastern
Europe.

[remainder of examples snipped]

I don't think anybody questions that the battle of Teutoburger-Wald
had long lasting consequences. But a lot of things went into the
events of 2000 years of European history. I just can not accept that
Arminius 'caused' WWI. His victory was certainly not a direct cause
of the 'War to end Wars' and I doubt it was even a proximate cause.

> My final question to you is, undoubtdely important though the defeat
> was, especially for Rome and iron age Germany, was it such a defing
> moment in European history as the program made out?

It was _a_ defining moment, but from what you report, the program
seems to have exaggerated things.

> I thank you in advance for your time.

You're welcome.

Vale,

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Healthy Organization
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@-------->
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:11:03 -0400

L. Sicinius Drusus writes:

> I see the same tired old complaints about the content
> of this list are surfacing again.
>
> We are having an ongoing debate about the future of
> Nova Roma. We have citizens who care enough about that
> future to comment on it, to engage in active debates
> over where Nova Roma should be, Next year or in a more
> distant future. Citizens this is a sign of a vibrant
> healthy organization.

While I agree that discussion and exchange of ideas
is a Good Thing, I think that - as Pompeia Antonia
mentioned - the concerns have more to do with tone,
demeanor, and a lack of courtesy and respect that
appears in certain posts.

> Do you prefer a Nova Roma that is so apathetic that
> it's jaded citizens don't bother replying to a post
> that may change our future?

No. Nor do I wish one where people have no wish to post
because they don't want to get dragged into protracted
debates by others. We unfortunately have some citizens
who think that any post made to the list is fair game
to turn into debating material. It's a sad fact that
when a good person such as Dalmaticus leaves, other people
will choose his departure as an excuse to flog their
own horses again.

> Are you unhappy with the openness of the Democratic
> part of our government?

I think that as modern day Romans, we can be above the
bickering and nastiness. I think that as modern day
Romans we should be too.

> Would you prefer we just [have] a civil war

Might be tricky to do that on the 'net. But I bet we
could find people who'd try if we let 'em.

> Some of you brag about how much mail you delete. There
> is one post that I hope you don't forget to delete.
> Your voter code, because you have insured that you are
> incapable of casting an informed vote.

Drusus, I really appreciate the frustration you project
in this. But there are many ways for someone to learn
about who and what they want to vote for in NR. There's
no requirement to even read the main list. Let's please
not make Dalmaticus' departure any more an occassion for
acrimony than it has already become.

Valete,

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The result of the Defeat of Varus.
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:40:52 EDT

Salvete

Much was made of the loss of three legiones. (Presumably Varius got what he
deserved) The question has to be asked why? Rome had received defeats like
this before.
The answer is two fold, the three had been raised by Augustus, when he was
Octavious Caesar, during the civil war, second, word of Varius' defeat came
five days after the celebration of the end of the Pannonian revolt. Tiberius
would have to immediately leave for the border, with troops. There were
still two legiones in Germania on the Rhine, I Germania,
V Alaudae under Legatus Lucius Asprenas. In short while the situation was
bad it was not critical.
However, as news of disaster spread, the citizens panics. The days of the
Teutones returned, Romans expected German armies to come sweeping across the
Rhine into Italy.
And if the Gauls rose... The Gauls didn't. They were used to peace and even
if they didn't
Legatus Lucius Asprenas' force insured that they would stay quiet.
Tiberus, returned to the Rhine with hastily raised citizen cohortes and
reinforcements of the closest Roman legio XVI Gallica, and made sure that the
Germans would not cross. A week later XXI Rapix arrived from Raetia, and
shortly after that II Augusta from Hispania.
The crisis had passed.
However had Augustus still been a younger, vigorous, man this would be but a
temporary setback, and Tiberius would have invaded Germania next year (CE 12)
with eight legiones and 16 aux. But Augustus was fading he had but 2 years
left to live, and as his successor, Tiberius, needed to be in Rome for the
succession.
The Agrippa faction was still powerful in Rome, even though the old man was
dead and Iulia exiled, there were powerful supporters of Augustus' grandson,
even though he was out favor for the moment. Tiberius dare not leave, since
if a coup was attempted it would lead to another civil war. The "Republic"
could ill afford that.
By 13 CE when Augustus had a law passed giving Tiberius the Tribunican power,
and Imperium as Augustus' equal was Tiberius was finally able to breathe a
sigh of relief. Still Augustus kept young Agrippa around to act as
counterbalance to Tiberius. Only after his death could Tiberius move
effectively against the Agrippa faction and render it harmless.
Because of this Germania would survive. Momentum had been lost, and though
Drusus Germanicus as Tiberius adopted son, after quailing a mutiny among four
legiones, was able to recover two of the lost eagles and defeat Hermann in
two battles, causing so much unrest in Germania that his former followers
killed him in CE 20.
However Tiberius was suspicious of his adopted son, and his rapport with the
people (Agrippina and Drusus were admired.) decided that the casualties of
the last three years especially loss of 1/2 a legio in a storm at sea, was
not worth the gain. He closed the campaign. Drusus would be sent to the
East.
To be fair he was probably correct. Germania was like no other province in
the Empire.
The thick woods, the unseasonal storms, the mercurial attitude of the people
would make campaigning past the Lippes a dubious project, and since the Limes
had been restored, Arminius punished, Eagles recovered, there was not much
more to gain, and a lot to lose.
Tacitus writing in the reign of Flavians disagreed. He tells us that "had
the Emperor not been jealous of Germanicus' success and had giving him what
he desired, Germania might be Rome's greatest province, greater then Gaul.
But he was a frightened weak willed man, and so the conquest was never
completed."

Germania of course was partly responsible for Rome's fall, but outside forces
pushed the Germans inward, so conquering Germania might not have kept the
Empire from eventually falling.
A book called "What if" a collection of essays and monographs edited by the
respectable Robert Cowley, the Editor of Harper's Magazine, Lewis Lapham
wrote "Furor Teutonicus" an essay that wonders what would have happened if
Rome civilized Germany.
Lapham is a witty author but he is not a historian, nor has he ever claimed
to be one I'll hasten to add. Saying things like "Tacitus wrote his
histories in the Reign of Hadrian," does not increase his reliability. In
short he says that Germany's thrust for glory and revenge can be laid at
Hermann's' feet. Even the treachery of the family is immortalized in the
opera "The Ring."
So OK. Lets face it. If Hermann goes off to Pannonia, history is changed.
Varius returns to Alsio, winters, advances to Rehme the following summer,
builds a fortress, subjects the central Germany to Roman pacification....
Hold it Hold It!
This presupposes a bunch of additional things that we have no control over
does not happen:
A. What if the Pannonian revolt gets worse, and additional assets are needed?
B. What if Gaul decides to follow their Pannoian brethren?
C. What if Augustus has a heart attack? Tiberius is in Pannonia. Agrippa is
on an island, where friendly forces can rescue him, even if his bid fails,
nobody is going to be worrying about Germania for bit.
D. Tiberius and Drusus are killed in Pannonia.
We historians hate playing the what if game, because history is not that
absolute.

Certainly if Germania had been Romanized history would have been changed.
How much is a good question. The Germans still would have undergone the
pressure from the Goths and the Huns. Hermann's failure would not have
stopped that. Rome would have to fight even further from Italy to halt them,
German troops were already in the Legiones, so that would not have changed.
Germans might have been interfering in the Empire long before the fourth
century, with who knows what result.
My point is we cannot say for sure and let's leave it at that.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: I'm a Bad American
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:04:45 -0000

FORMOSANUS: {re: Ted Nugent}..but as a moral or political philosopher
he is a total failure."

But far, far more preferable than John Lennon. Now that poor guy was
a loss. Such musical talent, such stupid ideas. 'Imagine' that.

Nerva