Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from the regions of Raetia and Noricum!
From:	t.odysse@--------
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:57:59 -0000

I want to send Condolences from the C.R. from the Regions of Raetia
and Noricum to all, who are involved in the NYC and Washington
tragedy!

Maximianus Flavius Herculius
Legatus Regionum Raetia et Noricum


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from Raetia and Noricum
From:	"Maximianus Flavius Herculius" <t.odysse@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:46:28 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

I´m sending you in the name of all Cives Novaromani
in the regions of Raetia and Noricum my condolences
to such, who have been involved by that disaster. We are
shocked about this horreable crime!

Maximianus Flavius Herculius
Legatus Regionum Raetia et Noricum

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from Raetia and Noricum
From:	"Maximianus Flavius Herculius" <t.odysse@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:29:22 +0200

Ave Quirites,

I want to send you the Condolences of all Cives Novaromani
in the regiones of Raetia and Noricum. I´m speachless about
this tragedy!

Maximianus Flavius Herculius
Legatus Raetia et Noricum

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from the regions of Raetia and Noricum!
From:	t.odysse@--------
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:54:22 -0000

Ave Quirites,

I want to send Condolences to the victims
of the New York tragedy from all the Cives
Novaromani in the regions of Raetia and Noricum!
Óur best wishes are with you!

Maximianus Flavius Herculius
Legatus Regionum Raetia et Noricum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OT A world called to action....
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:50:24 -0300 (BRT)

Salvete,

if I u8nderstand your post you are willing to use terrorism to combat
terrorism ?

This only leads to escalate is clearly the wrong answer.

Defending democracy (world wide) means using the law and justice to hunt
down the terrorists not turning into a terrorist.

The same is true for the use of mass destruction weapons (nuclear bombs
etc.) which will neceserly cause civilian death.

The assimilation of states/governments to the terrorist is just as bad, it
is the equivalent of what just happened: killing innocent civilians in
order to hurt an evil government against which there are so many
legitimate griefs.
Again a condemnable form of terrorism.

All this said I reiterate my condoleances to all the US citizens and my
condenation of this awful indiscriminate killing of so many civilians.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Adrian Gunn wrote:

> Salvete,
>
>
> We have reached a critical point in our history, and it is not time
> for half-measures. This new level of terrorism threatens the fabric
> of our society and western civilization in general. Reactive security
> measures will severely curb our cherished civil liberties and risk
> setting us down the road to becoming a police state. We can not stop
> attacks like this by simple 'security measures', without sacrificing
> our democratic institutions and dedication to personal liberty.
> Instead we must be proactive, and hunt these criminals down wherever
> they lair, and destroy them, whatever the cost. They must learn that
> terrorism is not an option that will bring them victory, but will
> only bring them and their cause to ruin. Any hesitation, any
> squeamishness on our part, will only encourage further attacks by
> fanatics dedicated to the destruction of democracy and western
> civilization. And sooner or later, the car bomb and airplane will
> give way to nuclear, chemical and biological attacks, that will kill
> MILLIONS, not thousands. We can not allow this to happen. The
> civilized world must unite and declare war against terrorism, the
> same way the world united 50 years ago to end the scourge of nazism
> and fascism. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. Here is what
> I think we we should do: rescind the U.S. Executive Order prohibiting
> assassination. We have some of the most frighteningly effective
> Special Operations capabilities in the world. We should use them, in
> cooperation with similar forces that our allies possess, to hunt down
> and kill any national leader who harbors terrorists, associates with
> terrorists, sponsors terrorists, etc. I assume, no matter how radical
> a nation's anti-western policies or attitudes are, the man-in-charge
> probably likes keeping his skin intact. I can't imagine there is
> anyone in this world that be can't eliminated, whether it be by a
> snipers bullet or a 2000lb laser guided bomb, given enough time and
> effort. This eliminates the necessity of waging war on a rouge
> nation's population, who are often innocent prisoners of the ruling
> regime's policies. If any of the government's in question take
> exception to this policy, we can always suggest if the prefer a
> declaration of war and facing the full wrath of the most powerful
> military ever known, that is certainly their prerogative. I suspect
> under these circumstances, even the most indirect national support
> for terrorism will dry up quickly.
>
> Please excuse the rant.
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 São Paulo, S SP
Brazil


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:18:18 -0400

Here, here. Well said, noble citizen.

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

>>> tiberius_ann@-------- Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:24:25 PM >>>
Salvete omnes,

Today I have read lots of things about sorrow and rage which seem to have
been written in a great rage. I myself have lived in Arabia for 3 years
and I got to know the arabian culture and religion. I feel, as if some people
are attacking me personally, even if they aren't, but when reading things
like 'let us kill them all' or 'we must use nuclear weapons', fun stops
with me.

Nothing at all can be so horrible as to cause the greatest nation in this
world to sink to the level of terrorists, and that would be the case if
Amerika started an ethnic cleansing process of Arabia, WITHOUT KNOWING IF
IT WERE THE ARABS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So please, let us all calm down and wait at least until we know who is behind
this all.

Valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho

________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OT A world called to action....
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:02:33 -0400

Justice, yes. Revenge? Makes us no better than the cowards who did the deed. Assasination, thousands of them, is what the attackers did to America. Do we not all serve the triune goddesses of Justice, Mercy and Temperance?

>>> shinjikun@-------- Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:37:08 AM >>>
Salvete,

We have reached a critical point in our history, and it is not time
for half-measures. This new level of terrorism threatens the fabric
of our society and western civilization in general. Reactive security
measures will severely curb our cherished civil liberties and risk
setting us down the road to becoming a police state. We can not stop
attacks like this by simple 'security measures', without sacrificing
our democratic institutions and dedication to personal liberty.
Instead we must be proactive, and hunt these criminals down wherever
they lair, and destroy them, whatever the cost. They must learn that
terrorism is not an option that will bring them victory, but will
only bring them and their cause to ruin. Any hesitation, any
squeamishness on our part, will only encourage further attacks by
fanatics dedicated to the destruction of democracy and western
civilization. And sooner or later, the car bomb and airplane will
give way to nuclear, chemical and biological attacks, that will kill
MILLIONS, not thousands. We can not allow this to happen. The
civilized world must unite and declare war against terrorism, the
same way the world united 50 years ago to end the scourge of nazism
and fascism. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. Here is what
I think we we should do: rescind the U.S. Executive Order prohibiting
assassination. We have some of the most frighteningly effective
Special Operations capabilities in the world. We should use them, in
cooperation with similar forces that our allies possess, to hunt down
and kill any national leader who harbors terrorists, associates with
terrorists, sponsors terrorists, etc. I assume, no matter how radical
a nation's anti-western policies or attitudes are, the man-in-charge
probably likes keeping his skin intact. I can't imagine there is
anyone in this world that be can't eliminated, whether it be by a
snipers bullet or a 2000lb laser guided bomb, given enough time and
effort. This eliminates the necessity of waging war on a rouge
nation's population, who are often innocent prisoners of the ruling
regime's policies. If any of the government's in question take
exception to this policy, we can always suggest if the prefer a
declaration of war and facing the full wrath of the most powerful
military ever known, that is certainly their prerogative. I suspect
under these circumstances, even the most indirect national support
for terrorism will dry up quickly.

Please excuse the rant.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:52:57 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf Of
Kristoffer From
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM
>
> Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to cause more?

If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died. The United
States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from Raetia and Noricum
From:	"Maximianus Flavius Herculius" <t.odysse@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:41:25 +0200

Ave Quirites,

I wa´nt to send condolences from the
Cives of the Regions of Raetia and Noricum!
Our feekings are with all, who are involved in
the US-tragedy!

Maximianus Flavius Herculius
Legatus Regionum Raetia et Noricum

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Aurelius" <lucius.aurelius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:58:12 +1100

Consul,

Peace cannot come from vengeance.

Peace can only truly come from reconciliation - only when those who hate no
longer feel that way can such actions never be repeated.

In time, I am sure you will agree.

Lucius Aurelius Samarius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
lucius.aurelius@--------
ICQ: 4895187

Praeterea censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

----- Original Message -----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:52 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage

> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf
Of
> Kristoffer From
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM
> >
> > Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to cause more?
>
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died. The United
> States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:10:50 -0700

Ave,

I am sure many people said the same things during the appeasement period right before WW2. I think we all agree we should not fall into the same traps our ancestors did. We should learn from history or we will be doomed to repeat it.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Aurelius
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage

Consul,

Peace cannot come from vengeance.

Peace can only truly come from reconciliation - only when those who hate no
longer feel that way can such actions never be repeated.

In time, I am sure you will agree.

Lucius Aurelius Samarius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
lucius.aurelius@--------
ICQ: 4895187

Praeterea censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

----- Original Message -----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:52 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage

> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf
Of
> Kristoffer From
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM
> >
> > Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to cause more?
>
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died. The United
> States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:10:30 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

I have a little experience with the grief that comes when you lose a loved
one to violence. Eight years ago, my sister and 4 yr old niece were killed
by my brother in law. Many members of my family are still consumed with
rage, this loss still effects them on a regular basis. They direct their
hate against my former brother in law, therefore he still has a place in
their minds. I chose to let my hate go. I'm glad he's behind bars so he
can't hurt anyone else, but I don't care to give him any more of my energy.
I must add my voice to those calling for patience and restraint. We must
take whatever steps are necessary to try to prevent acts like this from ever
happening again. We must find and punish those responsible in a manner that
does not lower us to their level. We must not let the terrorists have
control of our minds and hearts. We must not lash out at everyone who shares
the religion or ethnicity of the villains.
Thanks for letting me share these thoughts.

M.L. Peterson (USMC '82-'88) Semper Fi
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage

> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf
Of
> Kristoffer From
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM
> >
> > Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to cause more?
>
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died. The United
> States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	a.cato@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:21:24 -0000

> From: Flavius Vedius Germa--------s <germa--------s@--------> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:52 AM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
>
>
> > Salvete
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf
> Of
> > Kristoffer From
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM
> > >
> > > Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to
cause more?
> >
> > If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill
ten, a
> > hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died.
The United
> > States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Consul
> >

> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
Salve: Reconciliation with fanatical terrorists? If you are joking,
it is a sick joke. You cannot reconcile with these nut cases. They do
not believe in the concept. They will settle for nothing less then
having everything their way. That is their nature. They care for
nothing else, including the lives of thousands of innocent men, women
and children. This would mean that the free countries totally give in
to ALL their demands. I can see that they have already cowered you
into submission. They understand only two things. Force, and the
Power to deliver it. The only course of action left for our friends
in the U.S., and those of us who still live in relatively free
countries is to root out those responsible, (making sure to keep
innocent losses to as small a number as possible) and destroy them.
They can not be stopped any other way. I would not give in to these
sick bastards.
Vale, ... Appius Cato
> >


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from New Zealand
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:06:35 +1200

Salvete Quirites

Aotearoa (New Zealand) awoke on 12 Sep to learn of the disaster that had recently befallen the peoples of the United States. Our television stations have been constantly broadcasting since trying to keep us up to date with events. I offer my condolences to everyone who has lost friends and family. This sudden tragedy has made me ashamed to be a human. Many people here are still trying to comprehend this reality, it is hard to imagine when you live in one of the most peaceful countries in the world, even my husband who is a US citizen wandered around in a daze yesterday unable to comprehend his feelings. We are now recieving the names of New Zealanders killed in the incidents and hearing stories of New Zealanders who escaped. I have been strongly moved by the people in the emergency services who have attempted to save others with no regards for themselves, through tragedy we have heroes.

Again my condolences to those deeply hurt by this. I can only hope for some sanity and clarity to come.

Valete
Domna Claudia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"alexious@--------" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:14:04 -0400

Ave,

I am sure many people said the same things during the appeasement period right before WW2. I think we all agree we should not fall into the same traps our ancestors did. We should learn from history or we will be doomed to repeat it.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Lucius Aurelius lucius.aurelius@--------
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:58:12 +1100
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage

<html><body>
<tt>
Consul, 
 
Peace cannot come from vengeance. 
 
Peace can only truly come from reconciliation - only when those who hate no 
longer feel that way can such actions never be repeated. 
 
In time, I am sure you will agree. 
 
Lucius Aurelius Samarius 
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior 
lucius.aurelius@-------- 
ICQ: 4895187 
 
Praeterea censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> 
To: <novaroma@--------> 
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:52 AM 
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage 
 
 
> Salvete 
> 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf 
Of 
> Kristoffer From 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM 
> > 
> > Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to cause more? 
> 
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a 
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died. The United 
> States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it. 
> 
> Valete, 
> 
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus, 
> Consul 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
> 
> 
> 
 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>


Subject:	[novaroma] absence due to NYC horror
From:	"Kryn Miner" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:38:07 -0400

to all my fellow cives, I will be out of the loop for a while...

I belong to an orginization that responds to acts like this and will be
helping the people in NYC for a while...

will try to get back from time to time...

Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
Cornicularius Militarium Sodalitas
Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

www.geocities.com/legio_vi

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:43:13 -0400

Salve,

> Peace cannot come from vengeance.>>

Neither can our continued policy of turning the other cheek and trying to be
reasonable.

> Peace can only truly come from reconciliation>>

I ask you how on Earth you think one can reconcile with fanatical maniacs
who believe their god approves of such heinous acts? How can you ever
reconcile with those who feel justified in killing thousands for NO REASON
except that they happened to be American?

>>- only when those who hate no longer feel that way can such actions never
be repeated.>>

When those who hate dance in the streets to celebrate the needless killing
of thousands of innocent Americans whose ONLY mistake was showing up for
work.....how precisely are we to help them overcome their hate? When we are
dealing with fanatic maniacs who preach that every dead American brings one
closer to Allah.....how are we to overcome that level of hate?

> In time, I am sure you will agree.>>

I disagree. In time, and not much at that, I believe certain nations are
about to be keenly reminded of *exactly* why we are the world's foremost
super power.

Mind you.....I have been a "dove" my entire adult life. I have even done
the protest-march-in-college thing to protest what I perceive as unfair in
our government. I do not say what I say out of any knee-jerk jingoism or
misguided sense of patriotism. Quite simply put if the USA does NOT
retaliate swiftly and viciously, we might as well disarm our military and
invite Osama Bin Ladin himself to come to the White House and spank GW Bush
personally.

And that ain't gonna happen.

We have tried for years to be reasonable. Do you have *any* idea how easy
it would have been for our special forces to assassinate Bin Laden?? But,
you see, we honor the laws of our land. We rise above such things.
Unfortunately this tragedy means we need to reevaluate our tactics. The
time has come, through NO action of our own, for even peace-minded folk such
as myself to say enough is enough.....you will NOT get away with bloodying
my home soil.

They threw down the gauntlet with this unprovoked attack. We are simply
going to pick it up and proceed to shove it right back down their throats in
a way that will make their children's children shudder at the very *notion*
of killing innocent Americans *ever* again.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

>
> Lucius Aurelius Samarius
> Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
> lucius.aurelius@--------
> ICQ: 4895187
>
> Praeterea censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:52 AM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
>
>
> > Salvete
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: from@--------
[mailto:from@--------]On Behalf
Of
> Kristoffer From
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:20 AM
> >
> > Is any number of civilian casualties enough of an excuse to cause more?
>
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died. The United
> States did not start this. By the Gods, though, we will finish it.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] I was very lucky
From:	sifurichmooney@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:29:50 -0000

I spent from last thursday evening through late monday morning in NYC
to see my mom for her birthday, and also to see one of my students
(I am a martial art instructor and have tons of students all over the
place). We went to Chinatown, ate lots of porkbuns, walked past the
WTC, and had a fine time.

My wife and I flew out of Laguardia on Monday morning at 830 AM
and headed for Dulles in DC, and from there back to DFW. Had we opted
to stay another night, who knows what might have happened.

Revenge is a dish best served from our bombers.

T T Germanicus

aka

rich mooney

http://www.geocities.com/sijai2000


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: I was very lucky
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:07:27 -0000

---

Salve Tiberi:

I am so thankful that you and your wife are safe, and elected NOT to
delay your depaprture.

I am also very relieved to hear from Tiberius Cascus Longinus, who
lives in NYC. Casce, you have a brave spirit and a big heart, in
venturing forth to aid the people of NYC. Please be careful, and may
the protectors of Rome bring you safely back to us.

In novaroma@--------, sifurichmoone--------.. wrote:
> I spent from last thursday evening through late monday morning in
NYC
> to see my mom for her birthday, and also to see one of my students
> (I am a martial art instructor and have tons of students all over
the
> place). We went to Chinatown, ate lots of porkbuns, walked past the
> WTC, and had a fine time.
>
> My wife and I flew out of Laguardia on Monday morning at 830 AM
> and headed for Dulles in DC, and from there back to DFW. Had we
opted
> to stay another night, who knows what might have happened.
>
> Revenge is a dish best served from our bombers.
>
> T T Germanicus
>
> aka
>
> rich mooney
>
> http://www.geocities.com/sijai2000


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <julilla@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:33:57 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have a little experience with the grief that comes when you lose
a loved one to violence. Eight years ago, my sister and 4 yr old
niece were killed by my brother in law. Many members of my family are
still consumed with rage, this loss still effects them on a regular
basis. They direct their hate against my former brother in law,
therefore he still has a place in their minds. I chose to let my hate
go. I'm glad he's behind bars so he can't hurt anyone else, but I
don't care to give him any more of my energy.

> I must add my voice to those calling for patience and restraint. We
must take whatever steps are necessary to try to prevent acts like
this from ever happening again. We must find and punish those
responsible in a manner that does not lower us to their level. We
must not let the terrorists have control of our minds and hearts. We
must not lash out at everyone who shares the religion or ethnicity of
the villains.
> Thanks for letting me share these thoughts.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious, my heart goes out to you and your
family. As I know from sharing tragedies of a close friend, the pain
of loss never fades, yet it can deepen the ties with our fellow human
beings while we cherish the memories of happier times.

May your wisdom help us all to be stronger in these times of trouble.

---
cura et valeas,

@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| http://julilla.tripod.com/
Daily Life in Ancient Rome
@____@ julilla@--------
||||


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] OT A world called to action....
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:54:00 -0400

Salvete,

While I don't wish to turn this into an argument(so this will be my last
post on the matter), I disagree with you on this point. Surgical military
action against an enemy of the United States is not terrorism. Unfortunately
this incident has changed then nature of terrorism. It is no longer a matter
for law-enforcement and the justice system. Whoever the perpetrators of the
heinous act are, they have committed an act of WAR against the United
States, and by Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, against every other
member of NATO. AS a result, the normal national and international laws
regarding criminal conduct, and investigation are irrelevant. This affair is
now under the international laws of war, which in no way prohibit the
targeting the leadership of an enemy. Killing the leadership of this
terrorist organization, or the leadership of any supporting state, is no
different than if the allies had killed Adolph Hitler and the Nazi
leadership during the Second World War. These barbarians have no legal
rights anymore, beyond those rights granted to combatants under the Laws of
Land Warfare as defined by the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

We have a saying here in the United States: "You mess with the bull, you get
the horns." And the USA is one pissed off bull right now.

End of rant!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Loos [mailto:loos@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:50 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] OT A world called to action....

Salvete,

if I u8nderstand your post you are willing to use terrorism to combat
terrorism ?

This only leads to escalate is clearly the wrong answer.

Defending democracy (world wide) means using the law and justice to hunt
down the terrorists not turning into a terrorist.

The same is true for the use of mass destruction weapons (nuclear bombs
etc.) which will neceserly cause civilian death.

The assimilation of states/governments to the terrorist is just as bad, it
is the equivalent of what just happened: killing innocent civilians in
order to hurt an evil government against which there are so many
legitimate griefs.
Again a condemnable form of terrorism.

All this said I reiterate my condoleances to all the US citizens and my
condenation of this awful indiscriminate killing of so many civilians.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Adrian Gunn wrote:

> Salvete,
>
>
> We have reached a critical point in our history, and it is not time
> for half-measures. This new level of terrorism threatens the fabric
> of our society and western civilization in general. Reactive security
> measures will severely curb our cherished civil liberties and risk
> setting us down the road to becoming a police state. We can not stop
> attacks like this by simple 'security measures', without sacrificing
> our democratic institutions and dedication to personal liberty.
> Instead we must be proactive, and hunt these criminals down wherever
> they lair, and destroy them, whatever the cost. They must learn that
> terrorism is not an option that will bring them victory, but will
> only bring them and their cause to ruin. Any hesitation, any
> squeamishness on our part, will only encourage further attacks by
> fanatics dedicated to the destruction of democracy and western
> civilization. And sooner or later, the car bomb and airplane will
> give way to nuclear, chemical and biological attacks, that will kill
> MILLIONS, not thousands. We can not allow this to happen. The
> civilized world must unite and declare war against terrorism, the
> same way the world united 50 years ago to end the scourge of nazism
> and fascism. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. Here is what
> I think we we should do: rescind the U.S. Executive Order prohibiting
> assassination. We have some of the most frighteningly effective
> Special Operations capabilities in the world. We should use them, in
> cooperation with similar forces that our allies possess, to hunt down
> and kill any national leader who harbors terrorists, associates with
> terrorists, sponsors terrorists, etc. I assume, no matter how radical
> a nation's anti-western policies or attitudes are, the man-in-charge
> probably likes keeping his skin intact. I can't imagine there is
> anyone in this world that be can't eliminated, whether it be by a
> snipers bullet or a 2000lb laser guided bomb, given enough time and
> effort. This eliminates the necessity of waging war on a rouge
> nation's population, who are often innocent prisoners of the ruling
> regime's policies. If any of the government's in question take
> exception to this policy, we can always suggest if the prefer a
> declaration of war and facing the full wrath of the most powerful
> military ever known, that is certainly their prerogative. I suspect
> under these circumstances, even the most indirect national support
> for terrorism will dry up quickly.
>
> Please excuse the rant.
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 Sco Paulo, S SP
Brazil

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:49:39 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Aurelius" <lucius.aurelius@b...> wrote:
> Consul,
>
> Peace cannot come from vengeance.
>
> Peace can only truly come from reconciliation - only when those who
hate no
> longer feel that way can such actions never be repeated.
>
> In time, I am sure you will agree.
>
> Lucius Aurelius Samarius
> Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
> lucius.aurelius@--------
> ICQ: 4895187
>

Reconciliation ?
With people who blindly hate us?
With people who consider any attempt to do so a weakness to be exploited?

How can we reconcile with the Taliban, a group that hates everthing
the west stands for? that hates the values that Nova Roma stands for.

We seek to revive the best of Roma, they hate all that Roma stands for.

We seek a place for the Religio in the world. They seek to destroy all
faiths but their perverted version of Islam. Do not forget we are
discussing the same barbarians who destroyed priceless Budhist shrines
earlier this year as "Idols". What would they make of the Religio?

We are discussing people who are foes of the West, barbarians who hate
our civilation, our culture. People who hate everything Nova Roma
stands for.

Do you realize the Penality in Afganistan for converting from another
faith, or for attempting to "convert" a muslam? Death. A copy of our
Religio page is grounds foe execution among the Taliban.

Yes this will end when they no longer hate us, but that day will only
come when they are dead, or we surrender all of our values to them. I
prefer death to life without my values. I am prepared to fight for the
things I love.

We are discussing the 21st century version of the Nazi Party, and
there is no hope of comprimise or reconciliation with this evil band,
there is only a stark choice. Kill or be killed.

L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] I was very lucky
From:	Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:12:56 -0700 (PDT)

I am glad you are ok and hope you mother is too.
Gaius Geminius Germanus
sifurichmooney@-------- wrote: I spent from last thursday evening through late monday morning in NYC
to see my mom for her birthday, and also to see one of my students
(I am a martial art instructor and have tons of students all over the
place). We went to Chinatown, ate lots of porkbuns, walked past the
WTC, and had a fine time.

My wife and I flew out of Laguardia on Monday morning at 830 AM
and headed for Dulles in DC, and from there back to DFW. Had we opted
to stay another night, who knows what might have happened.

Revenge is a dish best served from our bombers.

T T Germanicus

aka

rich mooney

http://www.geocities.com/sijai2000

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---------------------------------
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information inYahoo! News.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Yesterday
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:06:56 -0500

Avete omnes,

My friends in the Germano-Nordic heathen community are as stirred as we
here in the New City. We have, luckily, lost no one

I should like to personally thank our non-US Cives for their statements
of grief and support.

I was lucky, my cousin who worked in tower 1, quit her job 3 weeks ago
and moved back to Massachusetts.

My mother's cousin, who worked in #7, is on holiday with his family.

My heart goes out to Manius Constantius.

I wish for retribution on those responsible, not justice.

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives Nova Romana et Paterfamilias
Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html

Aut cervisae aut nihil!
(either beer, or nothing!)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	avikingthing@--------
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:38:07 EDT

The noble citizen speaks the truth. I am sorry for you loss, Sir, and wish
you much solace. Your very presence and words have helped untold numbers of
Romans who are now grieving and looking for answers.

Tim

Tim Jones
Durham, NC


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	avikingthing@--------
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:27:40 EDT

How can you say this? This is the wrong line of thinking - surely we should
look towards Justice not Revenge.


Subject:	[novaroma] Vicesima Quarta Legion XXIV News September 2001
From:	"LegionXXIV" <legionXXIV@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:35:58 -0400

VICESIMA - QUARTA
LEGION XXIV - MEDIA - ATLANTIA

* PROVINCIA PENNSYLVANIA *
* MEDIA - ATLANTICA * AMERICIA *

Defending the Frontiers of Ancient Rome
in the Mid - Atlantic Province
of North America

September 12, 2001
Year of Rome 2754

Ave et Salutatio... Commilitonis

Hello and Greetings from Gallio Velius Marsallas,
Praefectus, Legio XXIV Media-Atlantia;
Tribune Militaris - NovaRoma - Gens Velia
aka George W. Metz
13 Post Run Newtown Square, PA 19073-3014

legionxxiv@-------- 610-353-4982

http://www.legionxxiv.org

VICESIMA QUARTA LEGION XXIV NEWS SEPTEMBER 2001

PENNSIC XXX August 14 - 17

The Commander and four members of the Collins family came to Cooper's
Lake Campground for Pennsic War XXX. Gaius Licinius Marcellus (Daniel)
- Titus Pontius Maximus (John) - Gnaeus Herennius Artistus (Stephen) and
Livia Ocellina (Karen). The five of us spent four days displaying the presence
of ancient Rome. We belatedly joined with the Roman theme SCA household
of DarkYard in their annual memorial parade in honor of their founder, "Forgan".
Previously we had camped with Dark Yard and while they were gracious hosts;
it felt good to have our own little piece of Roma this year.
On Friday and Saturday we walked around the compound in segmentata, maile,
signifer lupus and civilian dress with many pictures being taken and receiving
numerous compliments on our appearance. Thanks Gaius, Titus, Gnaeus and
Livia for coming in from Las Vegas and New Jersey to show Legion XXIV at
its best!

MEMORY TOWN - MOUNT POCONO PA Sept. 8 - 9

Our Ludus Gladiatorium was the big and mostly only activity at this event.
The weather was great; but the crowds were not. The event was apparently
not that well publicized. The 1st North Carolina Sharpshooters were supported
by the Northern Medieval Assoc (Vikings) and Legion XXIV in this first time
attempt at a Time-Line Event in N/E PA.

Our Ludus Lanista and Senator, Marcus Audens (James Matthews) * Palus Primus
"Lead Gladiator", Maximus Gladius (John Ebel) * Commander Cascus Longinus
(Kryn Minor) of the new Legion VI of Troy, NY * Lupus Britannicus "Wolf of Britain"
barbarian gladiator (Mike Catellier) and Titus Italicus (Brian Helt) of Leg-VI put on
quite a show.
On Saturday, Maximus was victorious over the "Wolf of Britain" and "Retiarius"
(net & trident) Cascus. But, on Sunday, Maximus became a "bit full of himself"
and fell victim to "The Wolf " in the afternoon battle.

While we waited for the crowds to show up, we got in a lot of pilum practice and our
improving skill and form held the attention of the public and the Vikings on the hill behind
our camp. The commander had made-up four pilum kits from the Leg-IX Quartermaster
and along with the two others already on hand, a storm of pilums was discharged
at two haybails and a hapless target apple. Cascus had thrown javelin in school and
showed good form with the pilum, scoring a direct hit on the target apple. Commander
Gallio also scored a glancing hit, as well, as he bettered his technique.
One of the pilums was made up with a 3 pound ball weight and it was obvious that it took
more energy to throw effectively; but had an awesome impact force.

Palus Primus Maximus is still looking for gladiator recruits. The Ludus Gladiatorium of
Legion XXIV is becoming well organized and recognized; having done three major
public exhibitions this summer. John "Maximus" is really getting this unit in good form!
Check it out at www.legionxxiv.org/gladacademy

The following comes from our sister Legion XX. . .

On October 20-21 Legion XX has been invited to participate in a parade and
festival activities being held by the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, MD.
We should support them and need to be there and ready to roll about 9 AM,
as the parade (called the ArtMarch) starts at 10. It's about 6 blocks long, and will
be followed by an opening ceremony which should end no later than 11:30.
For the rest of the day we'll be stationed in Mt. Vernon park (not to be confused with
George Washington's domus in Virginia!) in the midst of the festival.
Activities will include " musical and other entertainment, cultural food and
beverage stations, beer and wine gardens and interactive arts activities
(Asian fish printing, calligraphy and illumination, painting, and more)."
We can break camp at about 7 PM, if not sooner. On Sunday there is no
parade but the rest will be pretty much the same, running from 12 noon until
about 6:30 PM.
Space is apparently pretty limited, and I have not yet found out if there
will be room for the tent or a pilum range. Matt Amt will advise about
directions, parking, passes to the Museum, overnight security, etc.
We may not be camping out, but packing up all our gear overnight.
---------------
For our associates in the Mid-West; Shane Evans of Nova Roma is planning
a "Roman Days event" in Columbus, Ohio on the October 13th, and is inviting
Legio XX and XXIV to attend. He mentions a full day of activities plus a feast
in the evening. I myself will not be going since I have other commitments; but if
any other groups or lonely Romans out there can help out, please contact
Shane directly at marcusafricanus@--------

SOURCES
Two new suppliers have asked me to mention their names. JB Pickerel makes
a very nice lorica segmentata and is experimenting with a number of other
things. See his site, Whyt-Hawk Armoury, at
http://www.whythawkarmoury.homestead.com/ (click the "Historical" and
"Brasswork" buttons).
Scott Jenquin has come up with a method for stamping out lorica lobed hinge
blanks. They are perfectly shaped and ready to be folded and notched.
He says he can do brass or red brass in nearly any thickness (I'd recommend
.020" or so), and is asking $20 for a set of 16 blanks (for 8 hinges).
Contact him at jenq0001@--------

REMINDER for Roman Tour in England and Europe, July 26 - Aug 10 2002
with Peter Connolly and Charles Wesencraft. See the Teutoburger Vald,
Saalburg Fort, Alesia, Hadrian's Wall and other sites. $2,250 per person
Contact Robert Garbisch 224 Masonic Drive; Vallejo, CA 94591-4231
707-557-4188 fireman_bob1@-------- for details or to sign-up!

UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS

Leg XX Fall Encampment, Sept 15-16, Marietta Mansion, MD.

Universal Soldier Time Line, Sept 29-30, Fort Washington, MD

Parade and Demonstration, Oct 20-21, Walters Art Gallery, Baltimore

Check out our Website http://www.legionxxiv.org
It has been recently updated and is loaded with links to other roman legions,
suppliers and contacts, along with historical roman organizations
and data on equipment. Our "Links" pages, "Roman Names" page,
"Glossary" and "TimeLines" are quite comprehensive, along with a
Photo Gallery thru Time.
A major section on gladiatorial combat and the Colosseum has
been added along with a log of the Imperial Legions and an
explanation for why 2001 is the true New Millennium and
why there was no "Year Zero". Take a look.

Thanking you for your interest in Legion XXIV,

We remain, as always,
(take your pick)

Tuus in Sodalicio Imperium Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Empire

Tuus in Sodalicio Respublica Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Gallio / George

Directions to Marietta Mansion:

5626 Bell Station Rd., Glenn Dale, MD 20769. 301-464-5291.
>From I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450 East, go 4 miles, turn left on Rt. 193, then left onto Bell Station Rd. and a 1000 feet to left into Marietta (or follow the signs to the parking area).

Alternate south bound on Baltimore-Washington Parkway to exit for Route 193 just before exit for Beltway I-495. Left off exit to 193 and then left at light. East on 193 for 5 miles, past fire station, to Marietta entrance on the right.

Directions to Fort Washington: 301-736-4600

>From I-95/495 the Capital Beltway, take Rt. 210 Indian Head Highway South; go about 4 miles and turn right at the light onto Fort Washington Road, which ends about 3.5 miles later at the park entrance.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:34:08 -0700

Ave,

I believe there are times when justice equals revenge. Once we find out who the culprits are for certain...I think that this will be the case.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: avikingthing@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage

How can you say this? This is the wrong line of thinking - surely we should
look towards Justice not Revenge.


Subject:	[novaroma] The Reconciliation comments
From:	"Lucius Aurelius" <lucius.aurelius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:10:37 +1100

A number of people have taken my comments of reconciliation out of context. So I feel it necessary to put them back into context.

There was a comment:
If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died.

I responded that retaliation would not prevent it happening again, and that only when two neighbours are reconciled can such actions never be repeated.

Despite what has been made of my comments publicly and privately, I have not defended what happened. I am as appalled at what happened as everyone else here.

What I said though was that while you hate your neighbour, and while your neighbour hates you, then evil things happen. In order to prevent them happening, both sides need to remove hate. Because if you simply kill your neighbour, then their children/family/friends will simply harbour a grudge and seek to kill you when you are not vigilant.

A lesson from history: For a century, France and Germany beat each other up. First one was the victor, and the vanquished people harboured a grudge until they rose up and quashed their neighbour. Then the process reversed itself. Only now, when they realise that they can both be better off not trying to kill each other are they able to be civilised neighbours.

(And yes, I do realise I can have the example of Carthage's salt farms thrown back at me - but I would have thought we'd moved past that after 2000 years)

Lucius Aurelius Samarius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
lucius.aurelius@--------
ICQ: 4895187

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Virus Alert
From:	"Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:33:31 -0400

Salvete Omnes: I would like to inform everyone that I just had an E-mail sent to me that Norton discovered had a virus attachment. It is the W95.Hybris.worm. The attachment is "suck.zl9" message is "leather sado" . do not open the detachment. Delete the message right away if you receive it.
vale, ... Cato

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Reconciliation comments
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:37:05 -0000

Salve, omnesque Luci!

Reconciliation is possible when there are at least two sides that may
be willing to conduct dialogue. The walking cancers that planned and
perpetrated this act desire only one thing: our total annihilation,
and the destruction of everything but their own point of view.

This was not an attack against a military target; this was the
deliberate murder of civilians aboard four aircraft so that they
could use those aircraft as weapons of mass destruction. These folks
planned these acts carefully and meticulously, covering every base,
making sure that they could carry out these crimes with almost
surgical precision. They were fully aware of how many lives would be
riven from this Earth, how much wanton destruction and horror would
result from these acts. They literally had months to consider the
enormity of this crime.

And they went right ahead and executed it with glee.

The example of France and Germany is a false parallel - with those
two countries, you had a common cultural base, a sense that "we have
something in common with them", and ultimately, a common ground where
both sides could ultimately come together and talk.

In this case, we have more in common with the man on the Moon than
with the perpetrators and with those who rejoiced at our misfortune.
The people on Gaza and the West Bank who passed out candies and
danced in the streets are the same folks our past President tried his
damnedest to help work out their problems with the Israelis. We
became the laughingstock of the Arab world because of our naivete in
attempting to help them. Their gratitude was patently visible
yesterday.

As for your example of Carthage - let me put this in very stark
terms. When Rome plowed salt into the ground at Cartago, the
Carthaginian problem was solved per saecula saeculorum. Perhaps that
is what we require. I feel sorry for the good people in Arab
countries that will suffer because of the blind hatred of their
governments and religious leaders - but we did not fly four aircraft
with 266 human beings into three major targets and one failed
approach, to cause over 20,000 casualties. And ceratinly not to
punish "the Great Satan", as these people call us.

If you want reconciliation, go right ahead. Your comments are not out
of context, they are wrong. You reconcile with the ox as he gores
you, or with the lion as he devours you. Me, I prefer to defend
myself as needed. I believe that we should respond to this
unprecedented act of war with the only language these folks
understand, straight out of Sha'ria: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for
a tooth, a life for a life".

If I am vengeful, so be it. This blood cannot be cleansed by words or
by platitudes. No weregild is sufficient to pay for the pain and
grief that this atrocity has caused. By now, we have a very good idea
from whence this crime came, so please understand our fury. I have
tried for 36 years not to hate - but this callous disregard for life
itself bears no other response. Forgiveness will come - when the Dis
Manes are appeased. These folks are not our neighbors, friend - they
are our Enemy, by their own hatred of our way of life and our
culture. They believe we have no right to exist, that killing us is
pleasing to their God. We are below contempt as far as they are
concerned.

We did not start this war. With the help of the Gods, we will end it,
and when Pax is restored, we will pray to the Supreme Architect of
the Universe that we may never have to endure this horror again.

Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis, Nova Roma

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Aurelius" <lucius.aurelius@b...> wrote:
> A number of people have taken my comments of reconciliation out of
context. So I feel it necessary to put them back into context.
>
> There was a comment:
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died.
>
> I responded that retaliation would not prevent it happening again,
and that only when two neighbours are reconciled can such actions
never be repeated.
>
> Despite what has been made of my comments publicly and privately, I
have not defended what happened. I am as appalled at what happened as
everyone else here.
>
> What I said though was that while you hate your neighbour, and
while your neighbour hates you, then evil things happen. In order to
prevent them happening, both sides need to remove hate. Because if
you simply kill your neighbour, then their children/family/friends
will simply harbour a grudge and seek to kill you when you are not
vigilant.
>
> A lesson from history: For a century, France and Germany beat each
other up. First one was the victor, and the vanquished people
harboured a grudge until they rose up and quashed their neighbour.
Then the process reversed itself. Only now, when they realise that
they can both be better off not trying to kill each other are they
able to be civilised neighbours.
>
> (And yes, I do realise I can have the example of Carthage's salt
farms thrown back at me - but I would have thought we'd moved past
that after 2000 years)
>
>
> Lucius Aurelius Samarius
> Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
> lucius.aurelius@--------
> ICQ: 4895187
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:48:05 -0000

Is military retaliation to an act of war terrorism? Should we have
apologized to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Make no mistake, Mane
Limitane, this is even worse than Pearl Harbor - not only anact of
undeclared war, but one perpetrated against civilian targets, using
civilian aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.

Escalation? Do you honestly think that this is not war? Then my
friend, mea apologia, but you are dead wrong, and there is no point
in any further discussion. We will take the measures necessary to
bring Iustitia to those who committed this crime. And if the
information available is right, these folks are those who would kill
you and me for being keffirs, "infidels" that deserve to die. No
peace is possible with us, Allah commands that we be slaughtered.

As for me, I will not bar my Iugula for their sword. Me, I vote that
we extirpate this cancer upon Islam, and upon humanity. Many Muslims
are innocent of this crime - may we not harm even one of them. As for
the guilty - may we not leave one alive. And the Gods have mercy upon
us.

Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis, Nova Roma

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> if I u8nderstand your post you are willing to use terrorism to
combat
> terrorism ?
>
> This only leads to escalate is clearly the wrong answer.
>
> Defending democracy (world wide) means using the law and justice to
hunt
> down the terrorists not turning into a terrorist.
>
> The same is true for the use of mass destruction weapons (nuclear
bombs
> etc.) which will neceserly cause civilian death.
>
> The assimilation of states/governments to the terrorist is just as
bad, it
> is the equivalent of what just happened: killing innocent civilians
in
> order to hurt an evil government against which there are so many
> legitimate griefs.
> Again a condemnable form of terrorism.
>
> All this said I reiterate my condoleances to all the US citizens
and my
> condenation of this awful indiscriminate killing of so many
civilians.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Adrian Gunn wrote:
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> >
> > We have reached a critical point in our history, and it is not
time
> > for half-measures. This new level of terrorism threatens the
fabric
> > of our society and western civilization in general. Reactive
security
> > measures will severely curb our cherished civil liberties and
risk
> > setting us down the road to becoming a police state. We can not
stop
> > attacks like this by simple 'security measures', without
sacrificing
> > our democratic institutions and dedication to personal liberty.
> > Instead we must be proactive, and hunt these criminals down
wherever
> > they lair, and destroy them, whatever the cost. They must learn
that
> > terrorism is not an option that will bring them victory, but will
> > only bring them and their cause to ruin. Any hesitation, any
> > squeamishness on our part, will only encourage further attacks by
> > fanatics dedicated to the destruction of democracy and western
> > civilization. And sooner or later, the car bomb and airplane will
> > give way to nuclear, chemical and biological attacks, that will
kill
> > MILLIONS, not thousands. We can not allow this to happen. The
> > civilized world must unite and declare war against terrorism, the
> > same way the world united 50 years ago to end the scourge of
nazism
> > and fascism. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. Here is
what
> > I think we we should do: rescind the U.S. Executive Order
prohibiting
> > assassination. We have some of the most frighteningly effective
> > Special Operations capabilities in the world. We should use them,
in
> > cooperation with similar forces that our allies possess, to hunt
down
> > and kill any national leader who harbors terrorists, associates
with
> > terrorists, sponsors terrorists, etc. I assume, no matter how
radical
> > a nation's anti-western policies or attitudes are, the man-in-
charge
> > probably likes keeping his skin intact. I can't imagine there is
> > anyone in this world that be can't eliminated, whether it be by a
> > snipers bullet or a 2000lb laser guided bomb, given enough time
and
> > effort. This eliminates the necessity of waging war on a rouge
> > nation's population, who are often innocent prisoners of the
ruling
> > regime's policies. If any of the government's in question take
> > exception to this policy, we can always suggest if the prefer a
> > declaration of war and facing the full wrath of the most powerful
> > military ever known, that is certainly their prerogative. I
suspect
> > under these circumstances, even the most indirect national
support
> > for terrorism will dry up quickly.
> >
> > Please excuse the rant.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > C. Minucius Hadrianus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
> Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
> PO Box 26077 05599-970 São Paulo, S SP
> Brazil


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20Sorrow=20and=20Rage?=
From:	tiberius_ann@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:53:07 +0200

Salvete omnes,

The following lines have hurt me deeply:

>How can we reconcile with the Taliban, a group that hates everthing
>the west stands for? that hates the values that Nova Roma stands for.
>
>We seek to revive the best of Roma, they hate all that Roma stands for.

How dare you use Rome as an equivalent to the USA. I must say. Rome is and
always was a part of EUROPE. Rome stands for ITALY. The USA are, as great
as they are, by no means the equivalent of Rome. Nor is Nova Roma.

Valete, TiAnO

________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:58:24 +0200

Salve L. Sicini Druse

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:

>We are discussing the 21st century version of the Nazi Party, and
>there is no hope of comprimise or reconciliation with this evil band,
>there is only a stark choice. Kill or be killed.
>
In WW2 the bombings went against the civilians, not against the Nazi who
were sitting safely in their harbours. Apart from all the Jews among
their relatives and friends, my grandma lost a lot of people due to the
bombing.

A retaliation campaign against Afghanistan will not kill the Taleban, it
will kill civilians and soldiers - like the Desert Storm campaign did.
Hussein is still alive, mocking the US. I am sure, ten thousands of
innocent will be killed, people who don't have the chance to watch CNN
to see what really happened - but those responsible will survive and
start over. The same old story.
It seems there's a kind of "gentlemen agreement" not to kill the
political leaders in military campaigns - at least this is what it looks
like after WW2.

I am afraid that many people driven by anger and grief, are simply
thirsting for a human sacrifice, a scapegoat, blood as weregild for
blood ... These people are doing exactly what such terrorists want them
to: they give up on the fundamental standards of (western) civilisation.

Di deaeque res bene vertant.

--
_
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` ´/ /
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~´ \ \ \
Civis NovaRomana ( ( | | ) /\ )
Auctrix Bibliotheca Germaniae \_\| | _/ / _| |
http://www.geocities.com/CorneliaLucilla /__/ /__/ /__/

_________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:15:32 +0200

Just an addition ... I lost friends in NYC ... one of the 3 German
businessmen in the plane that hit WTC2 was a business partner of ours. I
talked with him several times on the phone, we wanted to meet to talk
about cooperation, we shared a similar philosophy, values, sympathy, but
before we could develop our friendship he was torn away by a senseless
crime.
A friend of mine lost a close friend who worked in an upper story of the
same building.

I want justice. But I don't want the blood of innocent persons. And I
don't want anyone to stain his hands with the blood of innocent people.
It's what THEY did.

Get those who are responsible and drag them to court right before the
whole world. Just like it was done with the Nazi criminals in the
Nürnberg trials. They will be sentenced and punished.

By hitting US targets and using US means exclusively, they wanted to
drive wedges between America and the rest of the world. They didn't
manage to make Europe and Russia and many other countries turn away from
America - we are at your side. Now those who cry for a bloody revenge
turn away from those at your side, ram these wedges deep into the
fragile web of international coherence - fullfil the terrorists' intentions!

How THEY will rejoice to see you raging with fury among "their" people,
becoming the mortal enemy as they predicted!

Di deaeque res bene vertant

--
_
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` ´/ /
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~´ \ \ \
Civis NovaRomana ( ( | | ) /\ )
Auctrix Bibliotheca Germaniae \_\| | _/ / _| |
http://www.geocities.com/CorneliaLucilla /__/ /__/ /__/

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] a few quick comments regarding the NYC Incident
From:	"Kryn Miner" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:00:28 -0400

To the cives that think a firm, fair answer is not due, I offer this..

I (as some of you know) have spent my entire adult life in the Army be it
one form or another... 7 years spent in the active component. I consider
myself a lucky man to have been honored to spend 5 of those years in the
special operations community.

I have combated terrorists on both US and foreign soil. There is a code
among warriors that whatever our loses, it is expected... and respected...
These zelots are 110% commited to their beliefs, and no matter how errant
they are, there is a degree of respect for that commitment...

they believe they are at war with us (the west) and are willing to give
THEIR lives, not their childrens, families, friends, etc. to that cause just
as we who hunt "Tangos" do... "Shooters" believe the risks are worth the
benefit.. no matter what side they fight for..

Now that said... I can make a personal pledge and vow on behalf of my Dark
clad brothers. WE WILL FIND AND DESTROY THIS CANCER!!! It is said in the
specops world that it was not if but when this happened... people in our
country do not realize how exposed to this horror we are...

Now, is the time for justice, and it will come from the barrel of an MP5SD3,
the GLID of a Navy seal team, and the belly of an Ohio class sub.. etc...

I have lost 5 good friends to this horror, 2 police officers who from best
guess were in the buildings getting people out.. their deaths and the
deaths of those HELPLESS VICTIMS will be avenged...

as I am writting this I am covered in dust, my nostrils are filled with the
scent of death.. I have seen the face of war many times but never this
bad...

So, where ever you live, when you pray to your god, gods or whatever.. be
thankful you are not here... and remember freedom is never free... these
people intombed here paid for your freedom (if you are an american). DO NOT
belittle there passing by talking of forgiveness... you disgrace them and
yourselves...

I must go now.. there are bodies to recover...

Sincerely,

Kryn Miner... Cpt, U.S. Army (Member of the CD Urban Search and Rescue
team)

AKA

Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
Cornicularius Militarium Sodalitas
Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

www.geocities.com/legio_vi

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


Subject:	[novaroma] Thanks and Condolences
From:	"Valerie Hartzer" <valsylph@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:24:26 -0400

Salvete Omnes,

I can't begin to express my gratitude to the Nova Romans from Provincia outside of the United States who have emailed their support and condolences.I feel truly blessed that I am seeking citizenship in Nova Roma for this Republica is filled with so many fine and caring people.

I have spent the last two days staring in shocked disbelief at the video screens at work and the TV at home, watching in horror as one of the largest office buildings in the world crumbles like a cardboard model, decimating a city my husband and I have flown to and through many times over the years. Even though distant from New York proper, Detroit has many strategic targets and most of the city shut down or were locked down by security as the office building where I work did. The costs of this event are horrific lives, property, monetary markets all over the world but most of all the peace and security of a people have been shattered.

I have been to Europe many times and on one occasion weathered a Coup (Ukraine in 1991). Being in Ukraine was scary but not half as frightening as when terrorism comes to your own home, your own doorstep. When you visit a politically unstable country you expect to run the risk of being stuck in a Coup or some political firestorm, but not in a quiet peaceful nation. Especially not as a native citizen. Especially on a normal workday. Now nothing feels normal, nothing feels right. How weird it is to be at home huddled around the TV watching BBC news ...just like I was in Ukraine ...we were huddled around a short wave radio in a park listening to BBC news. And now the scary precautions like pat downs and identifying your checked luggage and any left being blown up that you have to do in European airports don't seem half as weird as they did.

I would also like to offer my heartfelt condolences to the Nova Romans around the country who lost family, friends, loved ones in the planes, Pentagon and World Trade Center. My prayers go out to all of you and also to the many Nova Romans serving in the U.S. military and as rescuers, may all of you be protected by the Gods in your efforts to help.

I also pray that the true perpetrators of this heinous crime be brought to justice. May we NOT stoop to the level of grabbing a convenient scapegoat to slaughter to salve the pain, but instead find those truly responsible and see that they answer for their crime, but not exact some terrible vengeance in the process. It is far too easy to become just like those that you most despise out of fear and hatred.

Bene vale,
In Pace Deorum,

Lucia Valeria Secunda Ianuaria Coqua (citizenship/name pending)
"Try to enjoy the great festival of life with other men"
Epictetus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: Adlocvtio 9/01
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:31:02 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Amt" <mamt@-------->
To: <mamt@-------->
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:00 AM
Subject: Adlocvtio 9/01

ADLOCVTIO
NEWSLETTER OF THE TWENTIETH LEGION

Vol. XI, no. ix, September 2001

AT WAR
I think I speak for the whole Legion and all our Associates in saying that
all our prayers and hopes go out to those affected by Tuesday's inexcusable
and barbaric attacks, and to the heroic rescue workers who have risked and
given their lives, and to the members of America's armed forces and those of
her allies who may be going abroad to inflict justice.
There shouldn't be much effect on our schedule of events, but if there are
any changes I'll let you know. Or you can always contact me for
confirmation. My feeling is that we should carry on and do our thing as
planned. If all I can do to help is teach history, that's what I'll do.
God Bless America!

EVENTS
The Fall Encampment at Marietta Mansion on September 15-16 is confirmed,
for whomever can make it. Public hours are from 10 AM to 4 PM, so please try
to be there by about 9 AM for set-up. There is no set schedule beyond that,
we'll simply drill or chuck pila when there is an audience. Richard and
Allison are planning to bring the Caupona and feed the participants. Anyone
who is not an Active member of Legio XX and wants to participate should
contact me (Quintus) and Susan Wolfe, the site manager at Marietta
(301-464-5291). There are no plans for merchants, food vendors, etc.,
though I'll try to remember to bring the cardboard shields for the Kiddy
Cohort.
Directions: From I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450
East, go 4 miles, turn left on Rt. 193, then left onto Bell Station Rd. and
left again into Marietta.
-------------
The fall Universal Soldier encampment at Fort Washington, Maryland, will be
September 29-30. If you've been there before, you've probably already
gotten the application form in the mail, so don't forget to send that back
to them. If you haven't been there before, a ranger will come around with a
registration form for you to fill out at some point. Public hours will be
from 10 AM to 5 PM on Saturday, and 10 AM to 3 PM on Sunday. As usual, aim
to get there about an hour before opening, if you can. There is an
admission fee for the public (not much). As usual, there is no schedule of
activities, but there is plenty of space for drill and pilum practice. Take
a stroll through the fort, too, it's worth it.
Directions: From I-95/495 the Capital Beltway, take Rt. 210 Indian Head
Highway South; go about 4 miles and turn right at the light onto Fort
Washington Road, which ends about 3.5 miles later at the park entrance.
-------------
On October 20-21 the Legion has been invited to participate in a parade and
festival activities being held by the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, MD.
We need to be there and ready to roll about 9 AM, as the parade (called the
ArtMarch) starts at 10. It's about 6 blocks long, and will be followed by
an opening ceremony which should end no later than 11:30. For the rest of
the day we'll be stationed in Mt. Vernon park (not to be confused with
George Washington's domus in Virginia!) in the midst of the festival.
Activities will include " musical and other entertainment, cultural food and
beverage stations, beer and wine gardens and interactive arts activities
(Asian fish printing, calligraphy and illumination, painting, and more)."
We can break camp at about 7 PM, if not sooner. On Sunday there is no
parade but the rest will be pretty much the same, running from 12 noon until
about 6:30 PM.
Space is apparently pretty limited, and I have not yet found out if there
will be room for the tent or a pilum range. I will also find out about
directions, parking, passes to the Museum, overnight security, etc. I
expect that we will NOT be camping out, but packing up all our gear
overnight.
---------------
Shane Evans of Nova Roma is planning a "Roman Days event" in Columbus, Ohio
on the October 13th, and is inviting Legio XX to attend. He mentions a full
day of activities plus a feast in the evening. I myself will not be going
since I'll be doing the Battle of Hastings that weekend, but if a few
members are interested I'll be happy to put it on the calendar and send
along the tent and signum. Let me know! Any other groups or lonely Romans
out there who want more info can contact Shane directly at
marcusafricanus@--------
---------------
Too close for you? Here's an invitation from the Iberian Peninsula!
"The LEGIO VII GEMINA wishes to make you a proposition: we will organize the
TARRACO VIVA Roman Days around the 25th of May 2002; and we'd like to invite
the whole of the XXth LEGION to perform your demonstrations.
"About the staying and feeding, it would be all provided by us, but we don't
know about the trip. Do you know if you'd have special offers for your
group? We could talk about sharing expenses depending on the price. What
we can ensure is the whole staying and feeding for all the XXth LEGION
members during all the days of
performance.
"Sincerely yours:
"MagÌ & Enric Seritjol, presidents of LEG VII GEM"
masefe@--------
----------------
The Classics Department of the University of Maryland is having their
annual Latin Day on Tuesday, October 23, with the theme of Roman Women. For
more information see their website:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/Classics/Latinday/LD-200
.html. This is not a Legio XX event, but the University's program to
introduce Latin and the Classics department to local high school students.

SURF'S UP
No rest for the website! You'll notice that the Table of Contents on the
main page has been made more readable and expanded, so that it is now
possible to reach every part of the site from there. There are some new
photos on the Scutum page, thanks to Richard Campbell and his digital
camera. There's also a little more info on the Lorica page, plus some
alternate shoulder guard patterns. I rearranged the Links page, bowing to
common sense and putting the Canadian groups together with the U.S. groups,
and put all the group names in boldface type so they are a little easier to
read (hopefully!). New additions you might notice include Legio IX in
Alabama and Legio XXX Ulpia Victrix in Ontario.

CALENDAR
September 15-16 --Legio XX Fall Encampment at Marietta Mansion
September 15 -- Masterpiece Motorcade, Leg. III Gallica, New Orleans
Museum of Art. Contact Darren Nunez, DNUNEZ1@-------- (not a Leg.XX
event)
September 29-30 --Leg.XX at Universal Soldier encampment, Fort Washington
October 6 -- Monthly workshop/muster
October 4-6, 2001--ROMEC XIII at Vindonissa, Switzerland. For more info,
see http://www.unibas.ch/arch/ROMEC/index.html
October 13 --Nova Roma event in Columbus, Ohio
October 20-21 -- Leg. XX at Walters Art Gallery, Baltimore for ArtMarch
parade and festival.
November 3 --Monthly workshop/muster
Dec. 1-2, 5, 8-9 -- Walk Through Bethlehem, Seventh Day Adventist
Headquarters, Silver Spring, MD
--------------------
Directions to the monthly workshops/musters at Roger Moskey's house: 304
Terrie Drive, Sterling, VA 20165. 703-450-2385, jj0197@--------
>From I-495 Capital Beltway, take Exit 12 B Route 267 Toll Road West towards
Dulles Airport. After paying toll (50 cents), take the first exit--Exit 16
Route 7 Leesburg Pike West for about 11 miles. Go past Cascades Parkway,
and at the next light take a right onto PALISADES Parkway, then an immediate
left onto "Triple 7" (Route 777). Pass Calvary Temple on right, take the
next right onto Regina Drive; follow it to the end and take a right onto
Markwood Drive. At stop sign take a left onto Terrie Drive (culdesac).
#304 is just to the right of the middle.
--------------------
ADLOCVTIO is the Official Newsletter of the Twentieth Legion, published on
the Ides of each month. Matthew Amt, 9416 Rhode Island Ave., College Park,
MD 20740-1639, 301-345-0582, mamt@-------- The Legio XX website is
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Reconciliation comments
From:	"G. Etcheverius Burdigalus" <burdigalus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:21:58 -0700 (PDT)

Gaius Etcheverius Burdigalus Lucio Aurelio et Omnes
S.P.D.

Salvete,

I do prize and respect your moral beliefs Lucius
Aurelius, but I cannot agree with the simplistic view
from which you speak. Nothing that human hands touch
is so simple as to be as easily explained as you say.
The evils perpetrated against the world that we call
World War II had many causes, not least of which was
the forebearance of the leaders of the European powers
for the rule of a madman in the most productive and
populus nation in Europe whose stated purpose in life
was to see the "Aryan" people of the world dominate
and rule over the less "perfect", whose goal was the
extermination of an entire race.
Our world isn't perfect but we make progress. It is
slow, painful and sometime cruel, but we do make
progress. The terrorists would reduce all of us to the
rule of the gun and destroy what little progress we
have made. Terrorism will not solve the problems we
are trying to solve.
In their world the hungry will die of starvation.
The creative would be destroyed because of the
intellectual threat they bring. Thinking would be a
crime punishable by death. Nothing and nobody would be
immune from instant destruction at the whim of some
monster with a gun.
One incident in history perhaps illustrates my point
better than I can at the moment: Back in Beirut,
during the Lebbanese civil war, the USA had their CIA
station chief kidnapped by one of the.The USSR
suffered the same kidnapping of one of their
diplomatic staff in the area. Yet the response of the
Soviets was different than the American response.
The Soviets did a little digging to find out which
falange had their man. They found out, and captured a
couple of that falanges supporters, cut their throats
and left them to die on the front steps of the
falanges building.
The American station chief was executed in a very
gruesome and cruel manner. The Soviet diplomat was
returned to them the next day unharmed.
In further developments and fighting in the area,
the Soviets were never again shot at, never shelled
and their facilities and people left to their own
devices. How many American and western lives were
lost?
I ask you two questions:
1 - In the scenario I just described, who's strategy
ultimately proved to be the more successful, the most
humane in terms of human suffering and the most
"reasonable" in terms of cost, the Soviet or the
American?
2 - Whose moral stand proved to be strong, well
thought out and took account of the actual situation
and who's moral stand proved weak, ineffective and
morally bankrupt in preventing attacks on their own
people?

Valete,
G. Etcheverius Burdigalus

> A number of people have taken my comments of
> reconciliation out of context. So I feel it
> necessary to put them back into context.
>
> There was a comment:
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I
> say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of
> ours who died.
>
> I responded that retaliation would not prevent it
> happening again, and that only when two neighbours
> are reconciled can such actions never be repeated.
>
> Despite what has been made of my comments publicly
> and privately, I have not defended what happened. I
> am as appalled at what happened as everyone else
> here.
>
> What I said though was that while you hate your
> neighbour, and while your neighbour hates you, then
> evil things happen. In order to prevent them
> happening, both sides need to remove hate. Because
> if you simply kill your neighbour, then their
> children/family/friends will simply harbour a grudge
> and seek to kill you when you are not vigilant.
>
> A lesson from history: For a century, France and
> Germany beat each other up. First one was the
> victor, and the vanquished people harboured a grudge
> until they rose up and quashed their neighbour. Then
> the process reversed itself. Only now, when they
> realise that they can both be better off not trying
> to kill each other are they able to be civilised
> neighbours.
>
> (And yes, I do realise I can have the example of
> Carthage's salt farms thrown back at me - but I
> would have thought we'd moved past that after 2000
> years)
>
>
> Lucius Aurelius Samarius
> Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
> lucius.aurelius@--------
> ICQ: 4895187
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
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Subject:	[novaroma] Our condolences
From:	Pica <mjarc@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:25:52 +0200 (MET DST)

Salvete Romani.

I have been asked by my fellow cives in Venedia to express our most
sincere condolences: to the Americans among us, to all those who have lost
their loved ones and friends and to everybody, because we have all been
hurt by this, all over the world.

Mani Constantine Serapio, I am so sorry.

Maia Apollonia Pica


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Milly Jansen" <millys2@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:52:09 +0200

Salve Lucilla Cornelia et salvete Omnes!

First off I would like to express my heartfelt sympathy to you Lucilla and
all the other people who lost someone he/she loved or knew.

I wholeheartedly agree with the views you just shared, Lucilla!

When US (and the rest of the world) would start to use violence against
violence it will lead the world into complete desaster.
It will turn those who'll die in a possible retaliation into martyres and
will create a whole chain of mutual atrocities (commited by both sides)in
the time to follow. (this "problem" can not be solved simply by dropping
some bombs somewhere, history has prooved this already!)

I pray that Minerva and her wisdom will guide us and I ask you my fellow
cives to join in the prayer for wisdom so that the world will not be guided
by anger or ruled by fear!

Agrippina Iulia Germanica

>From: Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:15:32 +0200
>
>Just an addition ... I lost friends in NYC ... one of the 3 German
>businessmen in the plane that hit WTC2 was a business partner of ours. I
>talked with him several times on the phone, we wanted to meet to talk
>about cooperation, we shared a similar philosophy, values, sympathy, but
>before we could develop our friendship he was torn away by a senseless
>crime.
>A friend of mine lost a close friend who worked in an upper story of the
>same building.
>
>I want justice. But I don't want the blood of innocent persons. And I
>don't want anyone to stain his hands with the blood of innocent people.
>It's what THEY did.
>
>Get those who are responsible and drag them to court right before the
>whole world. Just like it was done with the Nazi criminals in the
>Nürnberg trials. They will be sentenced and punished.
>
>By hitting US targets and using US means exclusively, they wanted to
>drive wedges between America and the rest of the world. They didn't
>manage to make Europe and Russia and many other countries turn away from
>America - we are at your side. Now those who cry for a bloody revenge
>turn away from those at your side, ram these wedges deep into the
>fragile web of international coherence - fullfil the terrorists'
>intentions!
>
>How THEY will rejoice to see you raging with fury among "their" people,
>becoming the mortal enemy as they predicted!
>
>Di deaeque res bene vertant
>
>--
> _
>Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
>Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
> Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
>Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` ´/ /
>Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
> Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~´ \ \ \
>Civis NovaRomana ( ( | | ) /\ )
>Auctrix Bibliotheca Germaniae \_\| | _/ / _| |
> http://www.geocities.com/CorneliaLucilla /__/ /__/ /__/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Claudia=20Maxima=20Dea?= <eleteia@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:50:00 +0200 (CEST)

I have no words to express the sorrow I felt when I yesterday heard of the horrendous crime
committed against all that is civilized. In a state of shock and disbelief, I would just like to
offer my condolences and deepest sympathy to each and every one affected by this. My thoughts and
prayers are with you all.

Valete,
Claudia Maxima Dea
Procuratrix Informatoria Thules.

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Reconciliation comments
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:05:34 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Aurelius [mailto:lucius.aurelius@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:11 PM
>
> A number of people have taken my comments of reconciliation out
> of context. So I feel it necessary to put them back into context.
>
> There was a comment:
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died.

That was me.

> I responded that retaliation would not prevent it happening
> again, and that only when two neighbours are reconciled can such
> actions never be repeated.

I disagree. Indeed, taken to its logical conclusion, it can be guaranteed
that no terrorist will attack American targets once all the terrorists are
dead. If more rise up to take their place, kill them, too. And so on until
the pool of available terrorists is dried up.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

> What I said though was that while you hate your neighbour, and
> while your neighbour hates you, then evil things happen. In order
> to prevent them happening, both sides need to remove hate.

Or, one side needs to establish an undeniable, unshakable, and inpenetrable
dominance over the other. If such dominance needs to be established by
eliminating those among our enemies who are inclined and capable towards
aggressive action, then I say so be it. Your neighbor can hate you all he
wants, as long as he is incapable of acting on that hate.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

> Because if you simply kill your neighbour, then their
> children/family/friends will simply harbour a grudge and seek to
> kill you when you are not vigilant.

You overlook the obvious solution in that case. I'm sure I don't need to
point it out.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

> A lesson from history: For a century, France and Germany beat
> each other up. First one was the victor, and the vanquished
> people harboured a grudge until they rose up and quashed their
> neighbour. Then the process reversed itself. Only now, when they
> realise that they can both be better off not trying to kill each
> other are they able to be civilised neighbours.

Your analysis is flawed. The current peaceful situation between France and
Germany did not come about through some sort of cathartic realization that
they had no reason to be antagonistic towards one another. It came about
because the core of antagonists on both sides were wiped out through
violence, and the violence inflicted on Germany was so severe as to preclude
is turning to warlike ways for generations. The psychological change of
which you speak came not from within, but was inflicted from without in the
form of invasion, mass bombing raids, and the deaths of hundreds of
thousands of people. Those who were inclined towards violence were either
dead or unable to draw up support from those who were not necessarily so
inclined because of the devastation they so recently had suffered for doing
so.

> (And yes, I do realise I can have the example of Carthage's salt
> farms thrown back at me - but I would have thought we'd moved
> past that after 2000 years)

Perhaps we can move past such, when we move past terrorist scum hijacking
planes and ramming them into buildings full of innocent people. And I think
I know a way to do just that.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Reconciliation comments
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:29:34 -0400

Good Citizens,

The noble Consul's argument was radically flawed itself - when the terrorism occurred, the ones who hijacked the planes were dead men!

Pre-emptive murder, clothed in the skins of Revenge - to return to the barbarians acts of barbarism - shows them that they have won the battle for their gods of Chaos and Evil.

Swift and severe swings Justice's sword, focused and temperant - is she not enough for us at this horrible time?

Come, Lord Mercury, quickly guide us back to Reason and Temperance. Change our hatred and anger to resolution. Assist us to focus our grief into the great strength it will take to locate the criminals and carry out the full punishment due the Barbarians.

Matthew

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

>>> germanicus@-------- Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:05:34 AM >>>
Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Aurelius [mailto:lucius.aurelius@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:11 PM
>
> A number of people have taken my comments of reconciliation out
> of context. So I feel it necessary to put them back into context.
>
> There was a comment:
> If such retailiation prevents another attack, then I say kill ten, a
> hundred, or a thousand of theirs for each one of ours who died.

That was me.

> I responded that retaliation would not prevent it happening
> again, and that only when two neighbours are reconciled can such
> actions never be repeated.

I disagree. Indeed, taken to its logical conclusion, it can be guaranteed
that no terrorist will attack American targets once all the terrorists are
dead. If more rise up to take their place, kill them, too. And so on until
the pool of available terrorists is dried up.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

> What I said though was that while you hate your neighbour, and
> while your neighbour hates you, then evil things happen. In order
> to prevent them happening, both sides need to remove hate.

Or, one side needs to establish an undeniable, unshakable, and inpenetrable
dominance over the other. If such dominance needs to be established by
eliminating those among our enemies who are inclined and capable towards
aggressive action, then I say so be it. Your neighbor can hate you all he
wants, as long as he is incapable of acting on that hate.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

> Because if you simply kill your neighbour, then their
> children/family/friends will simply harbour a grudge and seek to
> kill you when you are not vigilant.

You overlook the obvious solution in that case. I'm sure I don't need to
point it out.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

> A lesson from history: For a century, France and Germany beat
> each other up. First one was the victor, and the vanquished
> people harboured a grudge until they rose up and quashed their
> neighbour. Then the process reversed itself. Only now, when they
> realise that they can both be better off not trying to kill each
> other are they able to be civilised neighbours.

Your analysis is flawed. The current peaceful situation between France and
Germany did not come about through some sort of cathartic realization that
they had no reason to be antagonistic towards one another. It came about
because the core of antagonists on both sides were wiped out through
violence, and the violence inflicted on Germany was so severe as to preclude
is turning to warlike ways for generations. The psychological change of
which you speak came not from within, but was inflicted from without in the
form of invasion, mass bombing raids, and the deaths of hundreds of
thousands of people. Those who were inclined towards violence were either
dead or unable to draw up support from those who were not necessarily so
inclined because of the devastation they so recently had suffered for doing
so.

> (And yes, I do realise I can have the example of Carthage's salt
> farms thrown back at me - but I would have thought we'd moved
> past that after 2000 years)

Perhaps we can move past such, when we move past terrorist scum hijacking
planes and ramming them into buildings full of innocent people. And I think
I know a way to do just that.

Dead men don't hijack planes.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: with thanks
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:30:49 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, mark zona <pitdog2002@--------> wrote:
> I have been touched by the sincere outpouring of
> sympathy from the international citizens of NR.
> Painful and frustrating as the last day has been for
> me as an American, I have found comfort in the
> postings of condolences from these citizens of NR
> which reside all over the world.
> I just want to say thank you.
>
> M. Antonius Zeno
>
I would like to second this sentiment - both on the list and in the
world at large, support has been immediate and sincere, even from
such unexpected sources as Yasser Arafat, Russia, and China - maybe
one positive lesson to be gleaned from this tragedy is that our
differences with other civilized countries are probably not as great
as we sometimes think. Thanks to all for the support.

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] (unknown)
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:57:42 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, tiberius_ann@b... wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Today I have read lots of things about sorrow and rage which seem
to have
> been written in a great rage. I myself have lived in Arabia for 3
years
> and I got to know the arabian culture and religion. I feel, as if
some people
> are attacking me personally, even if they aren't, but when reading
things
> like 'let us kill them all' or 'we must use nuclear weapons', fun
stops
> with me.

Maybe we will have to use nuclear weapons (I very, very much doubt it
would be necessary in any case), but now is clearly NOT the time to
decide that. Westerners should all strive to keep in mind: Not all
Arabic people are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Shiite - in fact, most
Islamic teaching holds peace and respect for life as a very high and
worthy ideal. Not all Shiites are violent, although (to my limited
knowlege), Shiites are more prone to embrace violence than Sunni
Muslims. Not all violent Shiites are terrorists. I am appalled to see
that a mosque here in the Dallas area was attacked in a drive-by
shooting last night (apparently, window damage was the only result,
thankfully). Anger is understandable, but we must know who that anger
should be directed at before acting on it. I ask that you not take
any of these angry posts personally, I doubt they were meant to be.

> Nothing at all can be so horrible as to cause the greatest nation
in this
> world to sink to the level of terrorists, and that would be the
case if
> Amerika started an ethnic cleansing process of Arabia, WITHOUT
KNOWING IF
> IT WERE THE ARABS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That won't happen in any case, nor would it be justified.

> So please, let us all calm down and wait at least until we know who
is behind
> this all.
>
> Valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
>
Quite true. At this point, we don't even know for sure that Osama Bin-
Laden is involved (although it seems pretty likely). Level heads must
prevail in a crisis. We cannot and must not ignore or minimize the
issue, and a decisive, timely response is necessary, but rash,
unfocused reaction is not helpful.

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: thanks, Nova Roma
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:00:37 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Manius Constantinus Serapio"
<manius_constantinus_serapio@--------> wrote:
> AVETE
>
> I would like to thank all those who sent to me in public and
> privately messages of condolences and many kind words. Really thank
> you.
>
> I also would like Nova Roma for demonstrating such a solidarity
> with all victims of this action.
>
> Those terrorists, those orrible people took away one of my
sisters
> and my two nieces, 2 and 4 years old.
> I don't know if I will be able to forgive them.
> I am crying with my family and I am praying since yesterday for my
> relatives. But I am also praying so that Mars found those mens and
> make justice.
>
> Please, forgive my rage.
> thank you again
>
> VALETE MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
> Civis Provinciae Italiae

Manius, I am horrified and aghast to hear of the details, and my
heart goes out to you and yours. Your rage needs no forgiveness, it
is honest and justified. I'm sure you'll be in the prayers of all our
citizens, including my own.

My deepest and heart-felt condolences,

Rufus Iulius Palaoeologus


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20=28unknown=29?=
From:	tiberius_ann@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:06:11 +0200

Salvete omnes, salve Rufus Iulius Palaeologus,

Your kind and moderate words have very much touched me. All the more so
because I had people known to me, not friends or collegues, only people
I know, who have not yet called in. I am still missing reactions from 8
people. All 8 of them are Arabs or have arabic roots and they worked in
the WTC. However, this has not changed anything in my position.

I hope you understand, that I don't want to talk about that anymore and
I have not yet talked about it because I don't feel like it. But now it's
out and I hope that this fact gives more weight to the two mails I posted
on this list earlier.

Valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho

-- Original-Nachricht --

>--- In novaroma@--------, tiberius_ann@b... wrote:
>> Salvete omnes,
>>
>> Today I have read lots of things about sorrow and rage which seem
>to have
>> been written in a great rage. I myself have lived in Arabia for 3
>years
>> and I got to know the arabian culture and religion. I feel, as if
>some people
>> are attacking me personally, even if they aren't, but when reading
>things
>> like 'let us kill them all' or 'we must use nuclear weapons', fun
>stops
>> with me.
>
>Maybe we will have to use nuclear weapons (I very, very much doubt it
>would be necessary in any case), but now is clearly NOT the time to
>decide that. Westerners should all strive to keep in mind: Not all
>Arabic people are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Shiite - in fact, most
>Islamic teaching holds peace and respect for life as a very high and
>worthy ideal. Not all Shiites are violent, although (to my limited
>knowlege), Shiites are more prone to embrace violence than Sunni
>Muslims. Not all violent Shiites are terrorists. I am appalled to see
>that a mosque here in the Dallas area was attacked in a drive-by
>shooting last night (apparently, window damage was the only result,
>thankfully). Anger is understandable, but we must know who that anger
>should be directed at before acting on it. I ask that you not take
>any of these angry posts personally, I doubt they were meant to be.
>
>> Nothing at all can be so horrible as to cause the greatest nation
>in this
>> world to sink to the level of terrorists, and that would be the
>case if
>> Amerika started an ethnic cleansing process of Arabia, WITHOUT
>KNOWING IF
>> IT WERE THE ARABS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>That won't happen in any case, nor would it be justified.
>
>> So please, let us all calm down and wait at least until we know who
>is behind
>> this all.
>>
>> Valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
>>
>Quite true. At this point, we don't even know for sure that Osama Bin-
>Laden is involved (although it seems pretty likely). Level heads must
>prevail in a crisis. We cannot and must not ignore or minimize the
>issue, and a decisive, timely response is necessary, but rash,
>unfocused reaction is not helpful.
>
>Valete,
>
>Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:18:05 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@l...>
wrote:
> Justice, yes. Revenge? Makes us no better than the cowards who
did the deed.

That's an opinion we don't all share. I'm a peaceful man, but I have
no problem with revenge undertaken in a just cause. It's not the
noblest motivator, but it's far from the basest. To equate the
natural human desire for vengeance to the sanguinely premeditated and
cowardly attack that instigated it is very insulting and offensive.

Assasination, thousands of them, is what the attackers did to
America. Do we not all serve the triune goddesses of Justice, Mercy
and Temperance?
>
The important point is to NOT react splenitively just because it
feels good, but to also temper that with the realization that
hesitant or indecisive reaction will encourage more of this type of
behavior. Our course of action must be plotted in such a way as to
discourage terrorism, to make it NOT pay off for those who indulge in
it. How to do that is not a simple question, nor do I personally have
the definitive answer. I do know, however, that neither complacency
nor forgiveness is the solution to this issue, however much we might
wish it so. Justice, Mercy, and Temperance must be applied
intelligently. Mercy or Temperance towards the terrorist organization
that did this would be foolish and counterproductive. Justice,
hopefully, will be served - in full measure.

Respectfully,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:39:39 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@s...> wrote:
> Is military retaliation to an act of war terrorism? Should we have
> apologized to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Make no mistake,
Mane
> Limitane, this is even worse than Pearl Harbor - not only anact of
> undeclared war, but one perpetrated against civilian targets, using
> civilian aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.
>
> Escalation? Do you honestly think that this is not war? Then my
> friend, mea apologia, but you are dead wrong, and there is no point
> in any further discussion. We will take the measures necessary to
> bring Iustitia to those who committed this crime. And if the
> information available is right, these folks are those who would
kill
> you and me for being keffirs, "infidels" that deserve to die. No
> peace is possible with us, Allah commands that we be slaughtered.
>
> As for me, I will not bar my Iugula for their sword. Me, I vote
that
> we extirpate this cancer upon Islam, and upon humanity. Many
Muslims
> are innocent of this crime - may we not harm even one of them. As
for
> the guilty - may we not leave one alive. And the Gods have mercy
upon
> us.
>
> Marius Cornelius Scipio
> Aedilis Curulis, Nova Roma
>

Well spoken, Scipio!

Reconciliation between Christian and Muslim is still sorely needed,
as it has been for centuries now - even our society's basic
understanding of Islam is not adequate. However, reconciliation with
violent fanatics who have undertaken a jihad is not possible, no
matter how willing we might be to try it. Discussion and compromise
should always be our first resort, WHEN there is a chance they will
yield results. That is not the case here. Clearly, the wicked and
black-hearted sub-humans who perpetrated this act must be found out
and expunged, one way or another. There is no place for negotiation
or discussion with these terrorists, to think otherwise is
astoundingly disingenuous.

Islam on the whole is not to blame, something we all must remember.
The Islamic sects who support this kind of behavior are in the
minority, but their massive destructive ability has now been
demonstrated. To protect ourselves, we are compelled to demonstrate
our own ability to destroy those who would destroy us, one way or
another. Turning the other cheek can only make things worse. This
barbaric act is both a criminal act, and an act of war, and will have
to be dealt with accordingly. The key now is to find the responsible
parties and to fix their culpability clearly and unquestionably.

Salvete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] (unknown)
From:	darkelf@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:50:31 -0000

Salvete:

>
> Maybe we will have to use nuclear weapons (I very, very much doubt it
> would be necessary in any case), but now is clearly NOT the time to
> decide that. Westerners should all strive to keep in mind: Not all
> Arabic people are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Shiite - in fact, most
> Islamic teaching holds peace and respect for life as a very high and
> worthy ideal. Not all Shiites are violent, although (to my limited
> knowlege), Shiites are more prone to embrace violence than Sunni
> Muslims. Not all violent Shiites are terrorists. I am appalled to see
> that a mosque here in the Dallas area was attacked in a drive-by
> shooting last night (apparently, window damage was the only result,
> thankfully).

Interestingly... the Taliban is purist *Sunni*. Bin Laden is as well.

And what you say here is wise. We cannot blame the religion - any branch of it - for the stupidity of a few of its members.

Valete,
Cinnabari


Subject:	[novaroma] (unknown)
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:59:35 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, darkelf@e... wrote:
> Salvete:
>
> >
> > Maybe we will have to use nuclear weapons (I very, very much
doubt it
> > would be necessary in any case), but now is clearly NOT the time
to
> > decide that. Westerners should all strive to keep in mind: Not
all
> > Arabic people are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Shiite - in fact,
most
> > Islamic teaching holds peace and respect for life as a very high
and
> > worthy ideal. Not all Shiites are violent, although (to my
limited
> > knowlege), Shiites are more prone to embrace violence than Sunni
> > Muslims. Not all violent Shiites are terrorists. I am appalled to
see
> > that a mosque here in the Dallas area was attacked in a drive-by
> > shooting last night (apparently, window damage was the only
result,
> > thankfully).
>
> Interestingly... the Taliban is purist *Sunni*. Bin Laden is as
well.
>
> And what you say here is wise. We cannot blame the religion - any
branch of it - for the stupidity of a few of its members.
>
> Valete,
> Cinnabari

Thank you for the information, Cinnabari, I am not really very
familiar with the Taliban (although I'm sure we all will be in the
days to come). I appreciate the clarification.

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] (unknown)
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:07:32 +0200

Salvete

>We cannot blame the religion - any branch of it - for the stupidity of a few of its members.
>
Fundamentalism is a pest infecting any religion. Even in the name of
Buddhism war was declared on other peoples, and today there are
fundamentalist Christians shooting doctors because they make abortions
... an act which is a contradiction in itself!

Bene valete

--
_
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` ´/ /
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~´ \ \ \
Civis NovaRomana ( ( | | ) /\ )
Auctrix Bibliotheca Germaniae \_\| | _/ / _| |
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Reconciliation comments
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:02:01 +0200

Salvete Quirites

My daughter, 14 year-old Hypatia Cornelia Callisto, just suggested to
quickly rebuilt the World Trade Center and perform an international war
crime trial in it -- She was referring to the Nürnberg trials which took
place in the palace of justice that was used by the Nazi and where the
race laws had been declared ("The Nuremberg Trial" was on TV lately and
they're talking about nothing else but the assaults in school these
days); the idea is to heal the wounds by pointing a way to the future:
the culprits shown and sentenced in the place where the heinous crime
they initiated and/or supported was committed. And in my humble opinion
on the wall right behind the judges should be written the names of all
victims.

I am not talking about "mercy" or "reconciliation" with those
responsible and liable for those acts of terror, Flavi Vedi germanice
consul. That is what you want to read from my refusal of retaliation and
"surgical operations" in other nations when they concern American vital
interest (btw: Who will decide if American vital interests are
concerned? What will be the criteria for that decision?).

They hit you, but they attacked all of us, all civilized nations, all of
humanity - even their own people. Their acts of war violated
international right and the community of all human beings. It is not a
national issue alone and it's not a question of retaliation. Those who
hijacked the planes are dead and the dead cannot be harmed physically.
Blood cannot wash away blood, however hard you try. It's a question of
justice, of unmasking the evil before the eyes of the whole world, as it
was done in Nürnberg.

It worked in Nürnberg - denazification would have been impossible
without this painful process - it will work again!

Di deaeque res bene vertant ac nos bene protegant.

--
_
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` ´/ /
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~´ \ \ \
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:22:03 +0200

Salve, Rufe Iuli ...

I agree with much of your concerns, but ...

radams36@-------- wrote:

>... the wicked and
>black-hearted sub-humans ...
>
I am native from the nation where those term originate, and I am ashamed
every time I happen to come across them ...

The word is even stronger than the sword - so please do not deviate to
Nazi language!

Bene vale

--
_
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` ´/ /
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~´ \ \ \
Civis NovaRomana ( ( | | ) /\ )
Auctrix Bibliotheca Germaniae \_\| | _/ / _| |
http://www.geocities.com/CorneliaLucilla /__/ /__/ /__/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:08:51 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
wrote:
> Salve L. Sicini Druse
>
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> >We are discussing the 21st century version of the Nazi Party, and
> >there is no hope of comprimise or reconciliation with this evil
band,
> >there is only a stark choice. Kill or be killed.
> >
> In WW2 the bombings went against the civilians, not against the
Nazi who
> were sitting safely in their harbours. Apart from all the Jews
among
> their relatives and friends, my grandma lost a lot of people due to
the
> bombing.

DRUSUS:I Am NOT calling for a World War II style Bombing campaign.
The civilian losses in that campaign were a horror that I hope is
never repeated.
>
> A retaliation campaign against Afghanistan will not kill the
Taleban, it
> will kill civilians and soldiers - like the Desert Storm campaign
did.

DRUSUS:I Have no intrest in mere "retaliation". That policy has been
tried and proven to be an utter failure. We are facing a foe that
welcomes a short retaliation" campaign as a means of rallying support
to thier cause. I'm well aware that the war criminals in Kabul have
scurried to cower in bunkers outside the city, fearing the Martyrdom
they encourage OTHERS to accept.

> Hussein is still alive, mocking the US.

DRUSUS:He is alive becuse our allies wanted a weakened Iraq, but not
so weak as to split apart. The South of Iraq is mainly Shiite, and
the Sunni Arabs feared a Shiite Arab state would quickly fall under
Iranian influance. Northern Iraq is Armenian. Syria & Turkey have
large Armenian minorities and they feared an independant Armenian
state would aid separiist movements in their countries.

> I am sure, ten thousands of
> innocent will be killed, people who don't have the chance to watch
CNN
> to see what really happened - but those responsible will survive
and
> start over. The same old story.

DRUSUS:This is what we need to avoid! Taking out Bin Ladden will
accomplish little. We have to remove his Taliban masters from power,
and if possible bring them before a War crimes tribunal. If we can't
capture them, then we will have to eliminate them by other means. If
we allow then to remain in power they will simply find another Bin
Ladden to carry out their policies.

> It seems there's a kind of "gentlemen agreement" not to kill the
> political leaders in military campaigns - at least this is what it
looks
> like after WW2.

DRUSUS:This is something else that has to change. There is strong
evidance that US President Bush was a target in the recent attacks.
The "gentlemen agreement" has been broken and we need to take
advantage of that fact to save lives.
>
> I am afraid that many people driven by anger and grief, are simply
> thirsting for a human sacrifice, a scapegoat, blood as weregild for
> blood ... These people are doing exactly what such terrorists want
them
> to: they give up on the fundamental standards of (western)
civilisation.
>
DRUSUS:Yes we do have many who want vengance against those who
commited this horror. For many of us it's a different matter. We have
been forced to face reality. We are at war. This war did NOT start
two days ago, it has been going on for years. If you want a date for
the start, I would say it started in Munich in 1972.

For 29 years we have tried to pretend we aren't at war with a loose
alliance of gangster governments. We have fought that war with police
and that has been a failure. Two days ago the war was esculated to
the point that we can no longer ignore it's nature.

We are NOT facing "terrorist acts" from independant groups. These
rouge governments are brutal dictatorships, and governments like that
do NOT allow truely independant paramilitary groups to operate within
their borders. The so called "terrorist groups" are actually agents
of these goverments and their acts are the policies of these states.
Arresting the agents does NOT prevent the governments from recruiting
new agents.

We are facing cowardly governments that wished to resort to warfare
against Western Civilization, while avoiding the costs of open
warfare. We can't allow this. The war will continue as long as we
allow them to hide behind this "terrorist" charade.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Taliban Delenda Est


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:57:31 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
wrote:
> Salve, Rufe Iuli ...
>
> I agree with much of your concerns, but ...
>
> radams36@-------- wrote:
>
> >... the wicked and
> >black-hearted sub-humans ...
> >
> I am native from the nation where those term originate, and I am
ashamed
> every time I happen to come across them ...
>
> The word is even stronger than the sword - so please do not deviate
to
> Nazi language!
>
> Bene vale
>
> --
>
> Lucilla Cornelia Cinna

I think one or the other of us is encountering a language barrier
here:

'Black-hearted' is meant to convey the darkness held in the heart of
anyone capable of performing this despicable act.

'Sub-humans' is to convey that these people have chosen to make
themselves less than human by virtue of their behavior.

Reading between the lines of your post, I gather that you mistook my
references to mean something else, perhaps a racial or ethnic slur.
If so, you could not be more mistaken, so I hope the above clarifies.
I regard these people who committed this act as sub-human due to
their actions, which are their personal responsibility. They would
have no right to pin responsibility for those actions on their
country, race, ethnic background, or religion - nor would I accept
those factors as being contributory to their evil deeds. By and
large, there are no evil countries, races, ethnicities, or religions -
just evil individuals (and precious few of those, although I think
these hijackers qualify).

As to the "Nazi language" reference, I consider that a heinous slur,
but am willing to forbear if it is due to misapprehension. It was,
however, a reactionary term that was not justified.

Vale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:11:41 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> DRUSUS:Yes we do have many who want vengance against those who
> commited this horror. For many of us it's a different matter. We have
> been forced to face reality. We are at war. This war did NOT start
> two days ago, it has been going on for years. If you want a date for
> the start, I would say it started in Munich in 1972.

I think that a point we should make clear is that this "war" is not
against muslims, nor against Bin Laden. Our war is (should be) against
terrorism, in all its wicked forms. So this war started much earlier
than 1972. In my country, Spain, we have been facing terrorism since
the 1960's.

In the past, in the western world, we have committed the mistake to
differenciate between different kinds of terrorism; some times, our
governments have even supported terrorist groups to fight against a
"greater evil" (like the U.S. supported the taliban themselves in the
past).

This must stop. We must understand that terrorism is NEVER a legimitate
way to promote ANY goal, no matter how much we might agree with that
goal.

> For 29 years we have tried to pretend we aren't at war with a loose
> alliance of gangster governments. We have fought that war with police
> and that has been a failure. Two days ago the war was esculated to
> the point that we can no longer ignore it's nature.
>
> We are NOT facing "terrorist acts" from independant groups. These
> rouge governments are brutal dictatorships, and governments like that
> do NOT allow truely independant paramilitary groups to operate within
> their borders. The so called "terrorist groups" are actually agents
> of these goverments and their acts are the policies of these states.
> Arresting the agents does NOT prevent the governments from recruiting
> new agents.
>
> We are facing cowardly governments that wished to resort to warfare
> against Western Civilization, while avoiding the costs of open
> warfare. We can't allow this. The war will continue as long as we
> allow them to hide behind this "terrorist" charade.

We must also understand that there is no easy way out of this
labyrinth; not even by bombarding Afghanistan or any other "terrorist
haven". The "success" of this terrible action will only promote other
groups of nuts to superate themselves.

What must change from now on? We must not tolerate terrorism in any
form, nor must we tolerate those governments that harbour terrorism in
thieir territories. We (the western allies) must make clear that
terrorism is NOT a licit way to promote political goals, and that it
will not be tolerated. We must make clear that those who support
terrorism must be equated to those who practice it, and suffer the
legal consequences.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:54:21 -0400

Noble Citizen,

Thoughts well said, but we probably disagree on the definitions:

1) of Temperance. In this situation, Temperance would be to find the guilty, punishment them by meaningful jail terms or execution, and promises to do the same to all who inflict such pain on America again. I have already necessity of swiftness in Justice, so I won't readdress that part of your post, regardless, don't confuse Temperance and Justice with complacency.

2) and of Revenge and Justice. Revenge is just that, revenge, not Justice. Perhaps we can agree that the punishment (my term) that the barbarians deserve is the same acts of revenge (your term) that you would suggest. I think so. But with that said, if we do not show forth Aequitas (a Public Virtue) and law-abiding in all matters, at all times, we, de facto, revert to the barbarians that were our ancestors when they stood around digging clams out of the ancient Tiber when it was but a trickle.

Regardless of the semantics we are in agreement that Justice must swing her sword quickly to punish the wicked, whoever and wherever they may be. Truly, as you say, noble citizen, "in full measure".

Matthew

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

>>> radams36@-------- Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:18:05 PM >>>
--- In novaroma@--------, "Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@l...>
wrote:
> Justice, yes. Revenge? Makes us no better than the cowards who
did the deed.

That's an opinion we don't all share. I'm a peaceful man, but I have
no problem with revenge undertaken in a just cause. It's not the
noblest motivator, but it's far from the basest. To equate the
natural human desire for vengeance to the sanguinely premeditated and
cowardly attack that instigated it is very insulting and offensive.

Assasination, thousands of them, is what the attackers did to
America. Do we not all serve the triune goddesses of Justice, Mercy
and Temperance?
>
The important point is to NOT react splenitively just because it
feels good, but to also temper that with the realization that
hesitant or indecisive reaction will encourage more of this type of
behavior. Our course of action must be plotted in such a way as to
discourage terrorism, to make it NOT pay off for those who indulge in
it. How to do that is not a simple question, nor do I personally have
the definitive answer. I do know, however, that neither complacency
nor forgiveness is the solution to this issue, however much we might
wish it so. Justice, Mercy, and Temperance must be applied
intelligently. Mercy or Temperance towards the terrorist organization
that did this would be foolish and counterproductive. Justice,
hopefully, will be served - in full measure.

Respectfully,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:01:48 -0400

Well said, Rufus Iulius Palaeologus. Your posts surely reflect the thoughts of so many of us.

May Diana's hounds hunt them through the dark night until the ears of the barbarians are deafended from the baying, then may sweet Justice accomplish her most important task.

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

>>> radams36@-------- Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:39:39 PM >>>
--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@s...> wrote:
> Is military retaliation to an act of war terrorism? Should we have
> apologized to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Make no mistake,
Mane
> Limitane, this is even worse than Pearl Harbor - not only anact of
> undeclared war, but one perpetrated against civilian targets, using
> civilian aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.
>
> Escalation? Do you honestly think that this is not war? Then my
> friend, mea apologia, but you are dead wrong, and there is no point
> in any further discussion. We will take the measures necessary to
> bring Iustitia to those who committed this crime. And if the
> information available is right, these folks are those who would
kill
> you and me for being keffirs, "infidels" that deserve to die. No
> peace is possible with us, Allah commands that we be slaughtered.
>
> As for me, I will not bar my Iugula for their sword. Me, I vote
that
> we extirpate this cancer upon Islam, and upon humanity. Many
Muslims
> are innocent of this crime - may we not harm even one of them. As
for
> the guilty - may we not leave one alive. And the Gods have mercy
upon
> us.
>
> Marius Cornelius Scipio
> Aedilis Curulis, Nova Roma
>

Well spoken, Scipio!

Reconciliation between Christian and Muslim is still sorely needed,
as it has been for centuries now - even our society's basic
understanding of Islam is not adequate. However, reconciliation with
violent fanatics who have undertaken a jihad is not possible, no
matter how willing we might be to try it. Discussion and compromise
should always be our first resort, WHEN there is a chance they will
yield results. That is not the case here. Clearly, the wicked and
black-hearted sub-humans who perpetrated this act must be found out
and expunged, one way or another. There is no place for negotiation
or discussion with these terrorists, to think otherwise is
astoundingly disingenuous.

Islam on the whole is not to blame, something we all must remember.
The Islamic sects who support this kind of behavior are in the
minority, but their massive destructive ability has now been
demonstrated. To protect ourselves, we are compelled to demonstrate
our own ability to destroy those who would destroy us, one way or
another. Turning the other cheek can only make things worse. This
barbaric act is both a criminal act, and an act of war, and will have
to be dealt with accordingly. The key now is to find the responsible
parties and to fix their culpability clearly and unquestionably.

Salvete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: (unknown)
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:53:45 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, tiberius_ann@b... wrote:
> Salvete omnes, salve Rufus Iulius Palaeologus,
>
> Your kind and moderate words have very much touched me. All the
more so
> because I had people known to me, not friends or collegues, only
people
> I know, who have not yet called in. I am still missing reactions
from 8
> people. All 8 of them are Arabs or have arabic roots and they
worked in
> the WTC. However, this has not changed anything in my position.
>
> I hope you understand, that I don't want to talk about that anymore
and
> I have not yet talked about it because I don't feel like it. But
now it's
> out and I hope that this fact gives more weight to the two mails I
posted
> on this list earlier.
>
> Valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
>
Salve, Otho,

I am glad and humbled that my post was of some small comfort to you.
I respect your wish to not talk further on the issue, and applaud you
for sharing this very personal and painful information - I believe
the context will make your position more clear and understandable. My
sincerest condolences for your personal loss.

Respectfully,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Article: The Case for Rage and Retribution
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:42:17 EDT

Salvete,

Just wanted to forward an address of an article from the latest Time magazine
online.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,174641,00.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] post
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:10:34 -0700 (PDT)

Ave List Moderator,

I had sent a post in and never saw it. Can you tell me
what happened?

Vale,

Antonia Caornelia Octavia

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Idibus Septembris (September 13th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:30:07 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.

Today is the aniversary of the dedication of the temple of Iuppiter, Iuno
and Miverva on the Mons Capitolinus (Capitoline Hill). Tradition says that
it was dedicated in 509 BC by M. Horatius Pulvillus, the first Consul of the
Respublica. Iuppiter is today honoured with a banquet, the Epulum Iovis
(Banquet of Iuppiter). This is organised by the Epulones, priests who had
the duty of organising the banquets associated with public feasts. This
college of priests was created in 196 BC due to the increase in the number
of public feasts as new temples were built and dedicated. Numbering 3 in the
beginning (Triumviri Epulones), their number was increased to 7 (Septemviri
Epulones) until it reached 10 (their name did not change at this time, being
still Septemviri Epulones) by the time of Caesar. The magistrates and
senators attend the Epulum Iovis, which begins with a sacrifice (probably a
white heifer). The second batch of 'mola salsa', which the Vestal Virgins
have prepared earlier in the year, is now used (the first has been offered
at the Vestalia, the third is reserved for the Lupercalia). At the banquet
itself, images of the three deities preside, dressed for a feast: Iuppiter,
his face reddened with 'minium' is placed on a 'lectulus' (couch), while
Iuno and Minerva have 'sellae' (seats).
It is also worth to remember an ancient and mysterious ritual asociated with
the temple, which was kept until the IIIrd century BC. A Praetor or other
magistrate used to drive a nail into a wall of the temple. The meaning of
the ritual was unfortunately forgotten.

Today is also the 9th day of the Ludi Romani.

The month of September is sacred to Vulcan.

Di vos incolumes serviant,
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:58:41 -0700 (PDT)

--- tiberius_ann@-------- wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> The following lines have hurt me deeply:
>
> >How can we reconcile with the Taliban, a group that
> hates everthing
> >the west stands for? that hates the values that
> Nova Roma stands for.
> >
> >We seek to revive the best of Roma, they hate all
> that Roma stands for.
>
> How dare you use Rome as an equivalent to the USA. I
> must say. Rome is and
> always was a part of EUROPE. Rome stands for ITALY.
> The USA are, as great
> as they are, by no means the equivalent of Rome. Nor
> is Nova Roma.
>
> Valete, TiAnO

Salve,

I can only assume the individual who posted this is
clearly overcome by grief as that could be the only
explanation for such an insensitive and ungrateful
message.

Vale,

Antonia
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered
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>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: post
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:25:21 -0000

---

Ave Soror:
Amica, I have received no posts from you in the pending messages, if
you are still on moderated status. From time to time posts directly
to the list are delayed due to server reasons, or the gram just
"dies".

What I always do as a safeguard, is to save a copy of the sent message
in the event such quirks occur.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Scriba Curatrix Sermonen

In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> Ave List Moderator,
>
> I had sent a post in and never saw it. Can you tell me
> what happened?
>
> Vale,
>
> Antonia Caornelia Octavia
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
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Subject:	[novaroma] Stoic Workshop
From:	"Keith Seddon" <K.H.S@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:24:45 +0100

Dear Friends,

I am holding a Stoic Workshop in Watford, England, on Saturday 20th October. Just in case anyone is near enough to come, I will attach a Word file with the details, and also add the same information below.

The Workshop may be of interest to those interested in practical philosophy, pantheism, and Roman paganism.

If you would like to know more, please contact me!

Live with honour,

Keith

TICKET-ONLY EVENT

Happiness and Well-Being

Â¯ Â¯ Â¯

The Stoic Way of the Ancient Philosophers

A four-hour workshop facilitated by Keith Seddon, PhD

Saturday 20 October 2001, 11.30amâ€“3.30pm

Oracle Centre, 12 Market Street, Watford, WD18 0PD â— Tel. 01923 243040

Individuals Â£6.50, Couples Â£10

The Promise of Stoic Philosophy

The Roman Stoic philosopher Epictetus (c.55â€“c.135 CE) saw philosophy as having the practical purpose of guiding people towards leading better lives. The aim was to live well, to secure for oneself happiness or a flourishing life.

But what is philosophy? Does it not mean making preparation
to meet the things that come upon us? â€” Epictetus

The ills we suffer, says Epictetus, result from mistaken beliefs about what is truly good. We have invested our hope in the wrong things. Our capacity to flourish and be happy is entirely dependent upon our own characters, how we dispose ourselves to ourselves, to others, and to events generally. What qualities our characters come to have is completely up to us. Therefore, how well we flourish is also entirely up to us.

Participants will take an active role in pursuing answers to a range of topics, including:

The Stoics on how to live well â— How to secure meaningful happiness

How the Stoic handles hardships and suffering

How to face loss and disappointments â— How to deal with other people

We will also look at a range of Stoic ideas concerning:

Fate â— God â— Good and evil â— Inner tranquillity â— Freedom â— The good life

The virtues â— Living â€˜in accord with natureâ€™ â— What matters most in life

PLEASE NOTE

Participants will need to acquire a copy of The Handbook by Epictetus, available at the workshop at the discounted price of Â£3.00. (If you already have an edition of this text, bring it along!) You will also need a notebook and pen! Bring a packed lunch!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

q Please enrol me on the Happiness and Well-Being one-day Stoic Workshop. I enclose my cheque for Â£6.50 (Â£10.00 for couples) made payable to â€˜Keith Seddonâ€™.

q Please send me a copy of The Handbook by Epictetus. I have added a further Â£3.00 to my cheque.

q Please send me details of the Stoic Foundationâ€™s correspondence course, â€˜The Quest for Inner Peaceâ€™, for which I enclose 4 first-class stamps.

Name(s):

Address:

Telephone No.

Email:

Return to â€“ Dr Keith Seddon, BM Box 1129, London, WC1N 3XX

Enquiries â€“ Tel: 01923 229784 â— Email: k.h.s@--------

http://www.btinternet.com/~k.h.s/stoic-foundation.htm

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:45:33 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, tiberius_ann@b... wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> The following lines have hurt me deeply:
>
> >How can we reconcile with the Taliban, a group that hates everthing
> >the west stands for? that hates the values that Nova Roma stands
for.
> >
> >We seek to revive the best of Roma, they hate all that Roma stands
for.
>
> How dare you use Rome as an equivalent to the USA. I must say. Rome
is and
> always was a part of EUROPE. Rome stands for ITALY. The USA are, as
great
> as they are, by no means the equivalent of Rome. Nor is Nova Roma.
>
> Valete, TiAnO
>
>
This was NOT just an attack on the USA. This latest outrage is part
of an attack against all of western civilation.

Yes Roma WAS attacked, along with every place on this earth that
civilized men live. Do NOT think you can escape the hatred of the
Barbarians, they will attack western civilation any where they get
the chance. Two days ago it was New York and Washington's turn. Next
week it may be your turn.

L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] A Nova Roman perspective on the terrorist attacks
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:28:41 EDT

Salvete,

A thought occurred to me today which has helped me to understand the recent
US tragedy in a more human perspective. So far the scale of everything has
just seemed unreal - relating it into more personal terms has made a
difference for me so I post it here in case it might be meaningful to others.

Picture Nova Roma being destroyed.

Imagine yourself, you who read this, being dead. So is everyone who you've
ever known through Nova Roma. Germanicus and Pricilla Vedia, and their infant
daughter, myself and Patricia Cassia, Sulla and all the Cornelii, Marcus
Audens, Lucius Equitius, Oppius Flaccus, Pompeia Strabo, Draco, ALL the
Senate and People of New Rome. All violently murdered in a painful and
terrifying way.

Think of the dream being lost, our love for history and civilization being
blown forever from the face of the earth. Our four years of effort,
discussion, friendship (and arguing!) all destroyed before they could truly
come to fruition. Think of the faces that would be gone, the voices forever
stilled, the knowledge lost, the positive emotions ended.

All of us murdered because someone didn't like our political ideas in some
way. Our entire micronation destroyed - AND people dancing in the streets
afterward, celebrating our deaths, chanting "Death to Rome!" and throwing
candy to passers-by.

That, Quirites, would be far less than *one tenth* of what has just happened
in cold, stark reality. Nova Roma has only a thousand people all told -
*many* thousands have just been murdered.

This is not about some remote "them." It is as if it were US, only many, many
times worse.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:04:51 +0100

Salvete omnes

In fact Roma is not the USA and it is my opinion that we should avoid by all
means such an identification.
Nevertheless, I remind TiAnO that Roma was not ITALY. Roma was all the
Mediterranean World and a part of Britain. Trajan and Seneca were born in
Spain. He should read the History books again, for it seems that he is not
able to grasp the grandeur of Rome. Maybe he is even able to call be a
barbarian though I am from a country - Portugal - where we speak a language
that evolved from Latin and whose vocabulary is very similar - when not
equal - to it.
But Roma was not only that. Roma was also a dream of unified civilization,
with many languages (e.g. the eastern provinces kept the Greek, Aramaic and
other languages even in many administrative documents of the empire), many
'religiones', many different peoples, many different races, but unified by a
simple concept and state organisation and administration, by the same
practice of tolerance and recognition of the diferences. Maybe TiAnO does
not know - but me, the Romanus-Lusitanus who really feels himself a Roman
and who by the way has a Roman name Antonio Grilo inherited from his family,
like many other latins, will tell him - that Caracalla enacted an edict
conferring citizenship to all free men of the Empire. That edict still
stands and was even extended by Nova Roma, which although is not ancient
Roma - due to the Ages that never stop their race for eternity -, it indeed
strives to be the heir of the Roman concept already in practice in ancient
times, which surpassed the city of Rome itself: Roma Urbi et Orbi! Rome [is]
in the city [of Rome] and the Universe!

Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

--- In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
>
> --- ti--------us_ann@-------- wrote:
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > The following lines have hurt me deeply:
> >
> > >How can we reconcile with the Taliban, a group that
> > hates everthing
> > >the west stands for? that hates the values that
> > Nova Roma stands for.
> > >
> > >We seek to revive the best of Roma, they hate all
> > that Roma stands for.
> >
> > How dare you use Rome as an equivalent to the USA. I
> > must say. Rome is and
> > always was a part of EUROPE. Rome stands for ITALY.
> > The USA are, as great
> > as they are, by no means the equivalent of Rome. Nor
> > is Nova Roma.
> >
> > Valete, TiAnO
>
> Salve,
>
> I can only assume the individual who posted this is
> clearly overcome by grief as that could be the only
> explanation for such an insensitive and ungrateful
> message.
>
> Vale,
>
> Antonia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: post
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:03:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

Thanks. I saw the post later. I am not on moderated
status that's why I was concerned that it didn't come
up right away. I have been having problems with my
emails and just wanted to be sure that they were being
received.

Vale,

Antonia Cornelia Octavia

--- trog99@-------- wrote:
> ---
>
>
> Ave Soror:
> Amica, I have received no posts from you in the
> pending messages, if
> you are still on moderated status. From time to
> time posts directly
> to the list are delayed due to server reasons, or
> the gram just
> "dies".
>
> What I always do as a safeguard, is to save a copy
> of the sent message
> in the event such quirks occur.
>
>
> Bene vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia
> Scriba Curatrix Sermonen
>
> In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia
> <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> > Ave List Moderator,
> >
> > I had sent a post in and never saw it. Can you
> tell me
> > what happened?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Antonia Caornelia Octavia
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> >
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: post
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:04:38 -0700 (PDT)