Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:40:08 -0000

Thank you for your reply and clarification. Indeed, the breaking of
national or international laws is NOT acceptable, even under these
circumstances. I appreciate your candor and temperance in your
response.

Vale!

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

--- In novaroma@--------, "Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@l...>
wrote:
> Noble Citizen,
>
> Thoughts well said, but we probably disagree on the definitions:
>
> 1) of Temperance. In this situation, Temperance would be to find
the guilty, punishment them by meaningful jail terms or execution,
and promises to do the same to all who inflict such pain on America
again. I have already necessity of swiftness in Justice, so I won't
readdress that part of your post, regardless, don't confuse
Temperance and Justice with complacency.
>
> 2) and of Revenge and Justice. Revenge is just that, revenge, not
Justice. Perhaps we can agree that the punishment (my term) that the
barbarians deserve is the same acts of revenge (your term) that you
would suggest. I think so. But with that said, if we do not show
forth Aequitas (a Public Virtue) and law-abiding in all matters, at
all times, we, de facto, revert to the barbarians that were our
ancestors when they stood around digging clams out of the ancient
Tiber when it was but a trickle.
>
> Regardless of the semantics we are in agreement that Justice must
swing her sword quickly to punish the wicked, whoever and wherever
they may be. Truly, as you say, noble citizen, "in full measure".
>
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
> Durham, NC
>
> >>> radams36@-------- Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:18:05 PM >>>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@l...>
> wrote:
> > Justice, yes. Revenge? Makes us no better than the cowards who
> did the deed.
>
> That's an opinion we don't all share. I'm a peaceful man, but I
have
> no problem with revenge undertaken in a just cause. It's not the
> noblest motivator, but it's far from the basest. To equate the
> natural human desire for vengeance to the sanguinely premeditated
and
> cowardly attack that instigated it is very insulting and offensive.
>
> Assasination, thousands of them, is what the attackers did to
> America. Do we not all serve the triune goddesses of Justice,
Mercy
> and Temperance?
> >
> The important point is to NOT react splenitively just because it
> feels good, but to also temper that with the realization that
> hesitant or indecisive reaction will encourage more of this type of
> behavior. Our course of action must be plotted in such a way as to
> discourage terrorism, to make it NOT pay off for those who indulge
in
> it. How to do that is not a simple question, nor do I personally
have
> the definitive answer. I do know, however, that neither complacency
> nor forgiveness is the solution to this issue, however much we
might
> wish it so. Justice, Mercy, and Temperance must be applied
> intelligently. Mercy or Temperance towards the terrorist
organization
> that did this would be foolish and counterproductive. Justice,
> hopefully, will be served - in full measure.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] [Fwd: BA - Post I found on the net]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:07:48 -0700

alexious@-------- wrote:
>
> You can see the original at www.hardocp.com. Here is the text:
>
> ___
> A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. America: The Good Neighbor.
>
> Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television Commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
>
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.
>
> None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
>
> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
>
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
>
> If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
> and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
>
> You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
>
> When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
>
> I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
>
> Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
>
> Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: A Tribute to the United States
From:	"Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:10:51 -0400

Salvete Novaromanis: I send to this list two notes that I sent to Antonia Cornelia and Lucius Cornelia Sulla. These were in response to "A Tribute to the United States" by a Canadian, Gordon Sinclair years ago. Sulla will be posting it to the Main List. These notes express my feelings, and, I am sure, the feelings of the vast majority of Canadians. I am sure that Antonia Cornelia and Lucius Cornelius Sulla will forgive me for sharing this with all of you. I just want you all to know that we share in the grief, and that the U.S. does not stand alone. We are with you all. The U.S. has many friends. My prayers for us all. This will be my last posting on this for some time. It is too much.
Bene valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato

----- Original Message -----
From: Appius Tullius Cato
To: Europamoon7@--------
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:17 PM
Subject: Fw: A Tribute to the United States

Salve Antonia Cornelia: I set the below note to Sulla in response to seeing the article "A Tribute to the United States" My message describes my feelings, and that of most if not all Canadians. I cannot express the feelings in my heart over what has happened. I am certainly not my normal self right now, that's for sure. The only words I can come up with are grief, outrage, knumbness, disbelief, sickness. I had great difficulty falling asleep last night, and I wouldn't be surprised if this continues for quite some time. I don't believe the reality has really hit me yet.
The U.S. does not stand alone. You have many friends that will stand with you. This is one Canadian among hundreds of thousands, millions, who will stand with you. I have always been a great admirerer of the noble principals outlined in the Constitution of the United States. And now these principals are under attack at the cost of the lives of thousands of innocent men, women and children. Those who did this will be hunted down and destroyed. I hope this can be accomplished without any more innocent civilians losing their lives in any country, and I pray for the soldiers of the U.S. and those of us who are your NATO allies. May the Gods bless us all. We stand together with you.
My best wishes to you all in this time of grief.
Bene vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Appius Tullius Cato
To: alexious@--------
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:40 PM
Subject: A Tribute to the United States

Salve Sulla: A beautiful tribute indeed. I remember hearing it the first time back during the Vietnam War. I too, am a Canadian who has always been sickened by the U.S. being insulted and attacked around the world. I also have U.S. citizens who are friends and relatives, and have traveled and spent much time in the States. The U.S. is like a second home for me. No, the U.S. is not perfect, and they certainly have their share of crime and criminals etc. But then what country doesn't? What country is perfect? The U.S. in my opinion is far better than most, and has more individual freedom than most other countries. It is a beacon for the rest of the world, and other relatively free countries probably would not stay free for long without the U.S.
The U.S. has always been willing to lend or give aid around the world to an extent that no other country has been either willing or able to do. It has accomplished far more than any other. And that is because her people are free.
But then, I am only repeating what has already been said by others in words better then mine.
I am wondering if you would be able to send this tribute to the main list my friend?
Our thoughts, and prayers are with our U.S. friends and relatives, and with all America at this time.
It appears that many large Canadian businesses also had offices in the World Trade Center buildings. Apparently Canadian lives have also been lost.
Be well my friend, we are with you.

Bene vale, ... Appius Tullius Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: post
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:04:17 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

Thanks. I saw the post later. I am not on moderated
status that's why I was concerned that it didn't come
up right away. I have been having problems with my
emails and just wanted to be sure that they were being
received.

Vale,

Antonia Cornelia Octavia

--- trog99@-------- wrote:
> ---
>
>
> Ave Soror:
> Amica, I have received no posts from you in the
> pending messages, if
> you are still on moderated status. From time to
> time posts directly
> to the list are delayed due to server reasons, or
> the gram just
> "dies".
>
> What I always do as a safeguard, is to save a copy
> of the sent message
> in the event such quirks occur.
>
>
> Bene vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia
> Scriba Curatrix Sermonen
>
> In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia
> <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> > Ave List Moderator,
> >
> > I had sent a post in and never saw it. Can you
> tell me
> > what happened?
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Antonia Caornelia Octavia
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> >
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:16:55 +0200

Antonio Grilo wrote:
> In fact Roma is not the USA and it is my opinion that we should avoid by all
> means such an identification.
> Nevertheless, I remind TiAnO that Roma was not ITALY. Roma was all the
> Mediterranean World and a part of Britain. Trajan and Seneca were born in
> Spain. He should read the History books again, for it seems that he is not
> able to grasp the grandeur of Rome. Maybe he is even able to call be a
> barbarian though I am from a country - Portugal - where we speak a language
> that evolved from Latin and whose vocabulary is very similar - when not
> equal - to it.

Salve, Antoni Grylle Graece.

I start off by apologizing; I'm tired, and as you all know by know, when
I'm tired, I lack finesse. Sometimes I'm even just plain rude. But
that's never stopped me before, and won't now, either. No offense meant.

Quite correct, Rome was not Italy. Rome was ONE CITY in Italy. Rome was
definitely NOT all the Mediterranean World and a part of Britain. The
Roman Empire covered all these areas, and her cultural influence is
still perceived in those regions, but Rome was Rome, and it took
centuries for even other parts of Italy to be considered Romans.

P.S. Capitalization of letters here mean I'm shouting. I told you I was
tired. Sorry.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] post
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:30:51 -0400

Try re-sending it again. I have not seen any messages from you in the
pending folders.

Priscilla

> -----Original Message-----
> From: AntoniaCorneliaOctavia [mailto:europamoon7@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:11 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] post
>
>
> Ave List Moderator,
>
> I had sent a post in and never saw it. Can you tell me
> what happened?
>
> Vale,
>
> Antonia Caornelia Octavia
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: BA - Post I found on the net]
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:44:21 EDT

Ave Pater:

(I'm revealing my age)...but... this editorial was written by Mr. Sinclair circa 1974 at the time President Nixon resigned from office.

While the details are a bit dated (The Airbus is a very comfortable and well designed aircraft, and many nations did send helpful crews to the Oklahoma City Bombing site to assist the recovery effort) I believe the sentiments Gordon Sinclair expressed then are just as trenchant today.

Thanks for sharing this. For a moment I was 17 all over again! : )

---Secunda


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:59:03 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Antonio Grilo" <amg@c...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> In fact Roma is not the USA and it is my opinion that we should
avoid by all
> means such an identification.

Salve,

I do have a Dictator and Consul's declaration saying that Roma IS in
the USA.

See
http://www.romegeorgia.com/capwolf.html

<Big Grin>

L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] FW: [Fellowship-of-Isis] FW:] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity -An Affirmation
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:11:09 -0400

Forwarded at the request of Merlynia Ambrosia Artori

FVG

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue L Flaxman [mailto:boomboom120@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:50 AM
To: mesidhe@--------
Cc: big_fat_bean@--------; merlinia@home.com; Books1985@aol.com;
shari.finkel@--------
Subject: Fw: [Fellowship-of-Isis] FW:] Letter to the Terrorists from
Humanity -An Affirmation

I received the following from Mary K. Greer today and wanted to share with
all of you.

Elda
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary K. Greer
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:49 PM
To: Isis Aurea; Marilyn Nyborg
Subject: [iaurea] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity -An Affirmation

I am not the author of this letter (see below) but please read
and pass on if you agree.

Sept. 12, 2001
To the terrorists,

Though I do not yet know your names, I know what you have done.
You should know that though you knock down our towers, you can
not bring down our power. Though you shadow us in smoke- born
darkness, know from within our hearts, within our minds our
Light will still shine. Though I mourn our dead, I celebrate
their lives. What each gave can not be stolen from us no matter
how hard you try. Our will to go on is their shrine. I let them
all be reborn in me today. Though you alter our flights and
metal birds fall to ignite columns of solidity to flame, our
souls by violence you can not claim.

I do not know your names yet. But be assured that today, I will
ask the name of someone who passes me on the street. I might
have let an unknown person slip away last week, but today I will
offer comfort to all and make love known. Today there is no such
thing as a stranger. Many have asked me Were you there? Many
have asked if I knew anyone who died or was injured there. I
tell you that without doubt that I knew them all. I have held my
child in love as they held their children. I have dreamed as
they did. I have eaten food as they did. I have climbed stairs
only to run down them for my life with an unthinkable threat
behind me and the hope of life ahead of me. They are all me no
matter what name they answered to. I am them. Mothers, brothers,
fathers, sisters, sons, daughters friends, my self, my family.
Though you tumble our towers they can not bring down our power.
Be assured my blood will continue to beat in a million hearts.

For in all your inflicted horror, I will love with greater depth
today. Be assured that today, I am the new mother and father of
each child you rendered an orphan. I am the one who will fill in
the gaps your violence had left. I will lift rubble. I will bury
the dead. I will comfort the sorrowing. I will righteously rage
at your injustice. I will rebuild what you tear down. I will
heal what you damage. I will give back what you take. In this
way, I will not l not you win. For in the end you seek to bring,
I vow that a greater Unity will begin. Though you bring down our
towers, you can not end our power. I will not let you make me
hate. In Love I will move forward, onward and upward. This you
can not stop. I am Love Rising from the ashes you have left us.

Though metalic birds crash , you can not ground the soaring
spirit of those who love. Know this, for every part of me you
have killed, for every part of me , you have wounded, you have
awaken a stronger part which refuses to become as you are. I am
the Phoenix-Eagle rising from the ashes of your burning hate.
Though you have stolen many feathers from my united wings, I
will fly in your face. I will make the immortality of my will to
rise known. I am the spirit that nests in all human places.
Though you rob me of thousands, more have opened themselves to
me in the wake of your destruction. I will not be defeated. I
will not become like you. I will love in the ashes. I will nest
in the rubble. I will love and I will protect all for I am no
longer separate from those who have been knocked out of the sky.
I am one with those who have been cast down from the very top of
all we have built and dreamed of. Though you bring down our
flights and topple our towers, we know our true power. It shall
not die but rise above all you have done.

I have awoken and you have been warned. Make no mistake, we are
now One. Still we will fly and reach new heights for in the
depths of the horror you have inflicted each ended life has been
reborn in our determination. Though you bring down our towers,
still my love move and will go on in true power. You will come
to know that their is but one name now. I am Humanity. I will
not lose my soul though you kill my bodies.

I am Love. I will speak, give of myself and fight hate from
every willing heart. I vow to be the blessing in the face of
your curse. Long after all of you are forgotten dust, I will
remain. In me will be preserved all that you tried to end. I am
the healing after the
wound. I am Love and there fore hate's ultimate doom. I am no
longer a
victim but victorious.

Rising in Love,

Rev. Laeaurra Flamehawk-Mitchell,
Interfaith Order of Intercession

I wrote this letter not because I am some sort of special or
holy messenger but because within my grief and my rage I have
words when many do not. Read it. Sign it and pass it on if you
agree with what it says and are willing to be one of Love's
answers to hate. Let it circle the globe. Let it be a message, a
vow and an answer from this moment on. Let it be one of many
united memorials and monuments. Though we sign this with many
letters of many languages we are one name, Humanity.

Blessings,
Rev. Laeaurra Flamehawk-Mitchell

Iseum Isis Aurea
http://isisaurea.freeyellow.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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----------

Morgaine--et al
This is from my Pagan group...Blessed be, little one...
Love,
Livy
Please forward to whoever you want...

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Elda Lantz" <eldalea@-------->
To: <IsisMagic@-------->, <Fellowship-of-Isis@-------->
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:25:28 -0700
Subject: [Fellowship-of-Isis] FW:] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity
-An Affirmation
Message-ID: <001f01c13bfc$8628c220$ce1277d8@oemcomputer>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Fw: Setting up a Candle Light Vigil - Friday, Sept 14th @ 10:00PM EST
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:13:26 EDT

Salve,
I got this from several other lists/groups. If you didn't already know
now you do. Please forgive if this is a repeat. It might do well for this to
be a world wide effort!

F.A . Drusila

I will be lighting my candles...I hope the rest of you
> will as well. Please read:
>
> All,
>
> Pass this on....
>
> Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. Pacific Time/9:00 p.m.
> Central Standard Time/10:00 p.m. EST (so that the
> candle light can be seen across the country) step out
> your door, stop your car, or step out of your
> establishment and light a candle.
>
> We will show the world that Americans are strong and
> united together against terrorism.
>
> Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail list. We
> need to reach everyone across the United States
> quickly.
>
> The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE
> TERRORISM!
>
> Thank you.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Fw: Setting up a Candle Light Vigil - Friday, Sept
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:39:46 +0200

asseri@-------- wrote:
> I got this from several other lists/groups. If you didn't already know
> now you do. Please forgive if this is a repeat. It might do well for this to
> be a world wide effort!
>
> > Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. Pacific Time/9:00 p.m.
> > Central Standard Time/10:00 p.m. EST (so that the
> > candle light can be seen across the country) step out
> > your door, stop your car, or step out of your
> > establishment and light a candle.

Salvete, Drusila et omnes.

Yes indeed...when would this be in CEST (Central European Standard
Time), or at least in GMT? Sorry, I'm just not good at US timezones. I
THINK EST is 6 hours after GMT, but I'm not sure. Thanks.

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:57:45 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf Of
Kristoffer From
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:17 PM
>
> I start off by apologizing; I'm tired, and as you all know by know, when
> I'm tired, I lack finesse. Sometimes I'm even just plain rude.

Perhaps you should consider just not posting in such circumstances; we can
all wait 8 hours or so until we receive the benefit of your wisdom and
insight, I'm sure. It might very well save a lot of heartache and bother.
The rest of us manage to do so; "Sometimes I'm just a rude sonofabitch"
isn't quite an adequate explanation. Learn to behave like a normal person,
or just shut the hell up.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20Sorrow=20and=20Rage?=
From:	tiberius_ann@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:38:02 +0200

Salvete omnes quirites,

Many of you have not yet heard one thing from me, that might make sense
to your very hurt american, or other, hearts.

It might help you understand the things I have written, if you know something
more about me.

I am 24 years old and live in Switzerland. That might lead some of you to
the conclusion that I should not get involved. However, from 1989 to 1992
I lived in the arabian gulf region and lived through the gulfwar. At that
time, I was 12 - 15 years old and the arabic culture and the way the people
around me supported the american attacks on Irak deeply touched me.

I have many arabic friends and some of them are involved in the attack on
WTC. 8 people have not yet contacted me. They were part of a 12 man crew
who worked at the WTC when the planes hit and the towers collapsed. Until
now I have only heard from 4 of them and what they wrote and told me is
not very pleasant.

I wrote things that many Nova Romans did not take in well. I meant no personal
offense against any person or against Nova Roma, but I stand behind everything
I wrote and I will repeat every statement if I feel it necessary.

I thank all those who answer to this mail or to my previous mails and hope
that those who took offense will try to see my statements in context.

However, I strongly believe, that we have to keep Nova Roma and the current
situation in USA apart. Please don't make the mistake of blurring your vision
and mixing things. Nova Roma cannot do more than try to give kind words
to people who lost friends, like me. Nova Roma does not have any power in
the macronational world and therefore I believe very strongly, that it is
wrong to see events as an attack against Nova Roma.

As for this part of your message, Antonia:

>I can only assume the individual who posted this is
>clearly overcome by grief as that could be the only
>explanation for such an insensitive and ungrateful
>message.

Yes, I am overcome by grief, but I stand to every word I wrote.

Valete and may the LORD bless all of you, Tiberius Annaeus Otho

________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] on Attitude
From:	"Sybil Leek" <DolanAp@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:47:17 -0700

Salve omnes,

Just a side thought on our reaction to the terrorism in NY...I am a US
citizen and I feel a need to speak about our words in the past few days.

First, I believe we should be very mindful of the heart-felt concerns of
people across the world who have reached out to us. Yes, our loss has been
great. However, have we done the same for other nations around the world who
have lived with terrorism for years? Their loss has been no less.

Secondly, we seem to only have reacted to this type of situation after it
has happened to us. Now, it seems we have a personal need to extinguish
terrorism worldwide. To, in effect, create a war on it and all people who we
deem as terroristic in nature.

Lastly, anger and words spoken in anger can be a double-edged sword that one
may not survive in the future. We have to remember that there are all types
of mentalities in the world and we are only one part of that world.

To conclude, I do not wish to ever see this type of attack again on any
nation. Hopefully we can learn a greater way of living with each other
because of the situation. However, if embattlement is needed to resolve this
situation it is fated, but I shall not beg it to my door or any other
person�s door.

Respectfully Prima Ritulia Nocta,

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?3=20minutes=20silence=20in=20school?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:14:30 +0200

Salvete omnes,

Today something extraordinary happened in school. I am a teacher in Switzerland
and we decided that it would be nice to remember the dead together with
the EU. Therefore every teacher was told to hold 3 minutes of silence at
12:00. This is 5 minutes before school is out here in my town. That again
is the worst time for anything because students are at home allready with
their minds.

However, today I have not heard one squeek throughout our whole school from
12:00 to 12:05. Most teachers told the students to be quiet and remember
until the bell rang. So did I and I was proud that my students managed.

This only for all those who lost someone, like I did, in the tragedy. I
hope it gives you all another wave of strength for the days to come.

Valete, TiAnO

________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:40:18 -0000

Salve Tiberi Annaee Otho

> Many of you have not yet heard one thing from me, that might make
sense
> to your very hurt american, or other, hearts.
>
> It might help you understand the things I have written, if you know
something
> more about me.
Ita sit.

> I am 24 years old and live in Switzerland. That might lead some of
you to
> the conclusion that I should not get involved. However, from 1989
to 1992
> I lived in the arabian gulf region and lived through the gulfwar.
At that
> time, I was 12 - 15 years old and the arabic culture and the way
the people
> around me supported the american attacks on Irak deeply touched me.
Personally, I'm a friend of the arabic culture, and I am almost as
proud of my arabic heritage as I am proud of my Roman heritage. I am
an admirer of the arabic culture of the Al Andaluz, which dominated a
part of my country (and mainly the region in the south where my
parents live) for many centuries. During the rule of the moslems,
science and philosophy developed, and religious tolerance was the
rule, with a big part of the population speaking arab - of course -
while keeping the christian faith - the 'mocarabes'.
The town where I lived for 17 years is called Beja, the same name of
a town in Tunisia. And the city where I live now, Lisbon the capital,
still has a neighbourhood called "Mouraria", which means "place where
the moors live". And our national song, "Fado" bears much resemblance
with the music of the Al Andaluz, as demonstrated two month ago by a
female singer from Morocco in whose concert I was present and
delighted.
During the attack on Irak I was deeply against the position of the
western countries, which I believe to have different policies and
different interpretations of international right depending on their
economical and strategical interests. Had the western powers solved
other problems with the same effectiveness and almost everything
would be right. I was also against the terrorist attack on the
Serbian population as much as I was against the genocide of the
Albanians.
Now I am against the terrorist attack in the USA because more
civilians were killed in the name of a God Who is surely not the same
God of my ancestors in Al Andaluz (maybe the reason why the Al
Andaluz got weaker and weaker as more fanatic - fundamentalist? -
moslem hords attacked from Morocco)... Though I think that part of
the guilt belongs to ex-president Ronald Reagan and his disastrous
support of the moslem fanatics of Afghanistan against the moderated
government supported by Russia.

> I have many arabic friends and some of them are involved in the
attack on
> WTC. 8 people have not yet contacted me. They were part of a 12 man
crew
> who worked at the WTC when the planes hit and the towers collapsed.
Until
> now I have only heard from 4 of them and what they wrote and told
me is
> not very pleasant.
I understand...

> I wrote things that many Nova Romans did not take in well. I meant
no personal
> offense against any person or against Nova Roma, but I stand behind
everything
> I wrote and I will repeat every statement if I feel it necessary.
You have that right, though I disagree with your point of view about
Rome. Indeed, many cities in the empire had the statute
of 'municipium' or 'colonia' and were full of roman citizens of plain
right even in somewhat early periods. Many were founded my Roman
citizens from the city of Rome itself!! And as the Empire grew, many
a roman citizens went to the temple of 'Roma et Augustus' to pray to
a goddess of a city they had never seen. And for them Roma was
everything, for even the Bizantines considered themselves 'Romanoi'
for many centuries after Rome ceased to belong to the Empire.

> I thank all those who answer to this mail or to my previous mails
and hope
> that those who took offense will try to see my statements in
context.
I will.

> However, I strongly believe, that we have to keep Nova Roma and the
current
> situation in USA apart. Please don't make the mistake of blurring
your vision
> and mixing things. Nova Roma cannot do more than try to give kind
words
> to people who lost friends, like me. Nova Roma does not have any
power in
> the macronational world and therefore I believe very strongly, that
it is
> wrong to see events as an attack against Nova Roma.
I agree, and that's why I took that approach when I invited people to
mourning and prayer. I repeat here what I said:

********
We all feel miserable because so many innocent american citizens were
killed
and injured. During these days of mourning, let a supplication by the
incense and prayer be made to the immortal gods on behalf of the
living and
the dead. Let us all pray together in this way:

"Divine 'manes', with a feeling of loss we pray to you so that you may
accept the deceased in the midst of you in the same way that you
accept
[this incense and] our prayers.
Immortal gods, tutelary spirits of the world, we beg you and pray to
you so
that you may be propitious to the roman people and to all men; may you
illuminate our minds and actions with divine light, and may you also
bestow
peace and concord upon humankind."
************

Vale bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fw: A Tribute to the United States
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:42:02 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Appius tullius Cato,

Thank you for sharing your kind thoughts. It is
friends such as yourself that make us feel that we are
doing something right in the world.

Vale,

Antonia Cornelia Octavia

--- Appius Tullius Cato <a.cato@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Novaromanis: I send to this list two notes
> that I sent to Antonia Cornelia and Lucius Cornelia
> Sulla. These were in response to "A Tribute to the
> United States" by a Canadian, Gordon Sinclair years
> ago. Sulla will be posting it to the Main List.
> These notes express my feelings, and, I am sure, the
> feelings of the vast majority of Canadians. I am
> sure that Antonia Cornelia and Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla will forgive me for sharing this with all of
> you. I just want you all to know that we share in
> the grief, and that the U.S. does not stand alone.
> We are with you all. The U.S. has many friends. My
> prayers for us all. This will be my last posting on
> this for some time. It is too much.
> Bene valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Appius Tullius Cato
> To: Europamoon7@--------
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:17 PM
> Subject: Fw: A Tribute to the United States
>
>
> Salve Antonia Cornelia: I set the below note to
> Sulla in response to seeing the article "A Tribute
> to the United States" My message describes my
> feelings, and that of most if not all Canadians. I
> cannot express the feelings in my heart over what
> has happened. I am certainly not my normal self
> right now, that's for sure. The only words I can
> come up with are grief, outrage, knumbness,
> disbelief, sickness. I had great difficulty falling
> asleep last night, and I wouldn't be surprised if
> this continues for quite some time. I don't believe
> the reality has really hit me yet.
> The U.S. does not stand alone. You have many
> friends that will stand with you. This is one
> Canadian among hundreds of thousands, millions, who
> will stand with you. I have always been a great
> admirerer of the noble principals outlined in the
> Constitution of the United States. And now these
> principals are under attack at the cost of the lives
> of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
> Those who did this will be hunted down and
> destroyed. I hope this can be accomplished without
> any more innocent civilians losing their lives in
> any country, and I pray for the soldiers of the U.S.
> and those of us who are your NATO allies. May the
> Gods bless us all. We stand together with you.
> My best wishes to you all in this time of grief.
> Bene vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
> Rogator, Novae Romae
> Procurator, Provincia
> Canadae Orientalis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Appius Tullius Cato
> To: alexious@--------
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:40 PM
> Subject: A Tribute to the United States
>
>
> Salve Sulla: A beautiful tribute indeed. I
> remember hearing it the first time back during the
> Vietnam War. I too, am a Canadian who has always
> been sickened by the U.S. being insulted and
> attacked around the world. I also have U.S. citizens
> who are friends and relatives, and have traveled and
> spent much time in the States. The U.S. is like a
> second home for me. No, the U.S. is not perfect, and
> they certainly have their share of crime and
> criminals etc. But then what country doesn't? What
> country is perfect? The U.S. in my opinion is far
> better than most, and has more individual freedom
> than most other countries. It is a beacon for the
> rest of the world, and other relatively free
> countries probably would not stay free for long
> without the U.S.
> The U.S. has always been willing to lend or
> give aid around the world to an extent that no other
> country has been either willing or able to do. It
> has accomplished far more than any other. And that
> is because her people are free.
> But then, I am only repeating what has already
> been said by others in words better then mine.
> I am wondering if you would be able to send
> this tribute to the main list my friend?
> Our thoughts, and prayers are with our U.S.
> friends and relatives, and with all America at this
> time.
> It appears that many large Canadian businesses
> also had offices in the World Trade Center
> buildings. Apparently Canadian lives have also been
> lost.
> Be well my friend, we are with you.
>
> Bene vale, ... Appius Tullius Cato
> Rogator, Novae Romae
> Procurator, Provincia
> Canadae Orientalis
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:51:17 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

It was Americans who started Nova Roma. How un
American is that? We Americans modeled our own
government after the ancient Roman Republic and
instead of berating us for associating ourselves with
Rome and Italy you should feel flattered that the most
powerful nation on earth is very much like Rome. I am
very proud of that.

Vale,

Antonia Cornelia Octavia

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@-------->
wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Antonio Grilo" <amg@c...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes
> >
> > In fact Roma is not the USA and it is my opinion
> that we should
> avoid by all
> > means such an identification.
>
>
> Salve,
>
> I do have a Dictator and Consul's declaration saying
> that Roma IS in
> the USA.
>
> See
> http://www.romegeorgia.com/capwolf.html
>
> <Big Grin>
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	avikingthing@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:00:43 EDT

Absolutely well spoken. Minerva has already spoken through your lips, noble
citizen.

Matthew

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC


Subject:	[novaroma] least we not forget
From:	kminer_rsg@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:44:07 -0400

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:10:33 -0000

Salve Antonia Cornelia Octavia

I don't know if you are aware of what you are implying in here. If
Nova Roma is another name for the USA, and if because it started in
USA it gives more right to US citizens to direct its course, then you
must agree that I am misplaced here. I am european from Portugal and
I am surely as proud of being european as you are of being an US
citizen. Besides, the US were not the only country to model its
structure after Rome, for I believe that all western countries have
done it one way or another. On the other hand I believe that neither
USA's nor EU's international policy have been in any way related to
the Virtutes, though I admit that the Romans behaved in a much
similar way in practice. In ancient times enemies were accused of
performing human sacrifice, while nowadays they are accused of not
being Democratic. All is relative.
I hope you will consider my words and recognise that such statements
can only contribute to divide Nova Roma between US and non-US
citizens. And believe me: there are many non-US citizens as well, and
many even speak languages that evolved directly from Latin, and some
can even see Roman monuments on the other side of the street. I hope
you will be able to recognise non-US citizens as Romans of Nova Roma
in the same way that I recognise you, who lives on the other side of
the Atlantic Ocean.

Vale bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex, Senator, Sacerdos Militarium, Propraetor Lusitaniae pro
Romae, civis novus romanus

--- In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> It was Americans who started Nova Roma. How un
> American is that? We Americans modeled our own
> government after the ancient Roman Republic and
> instead of berating us for associating ourselves with
> Rome and Italy you should feel flattered that the most
> powerful nation on earth is very much like Rome. I am
> very proud of that.
>
> Vale,
>
> Antonia Cornelia Octavia
>
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@-------->
> wrote:
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Antonio Grilo" <amg@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > Salvete omnes
> > >
> > > In fact Roma is not the USA and it is my opinion
> > that we should
> > avoid by all
> > > means such an identification.
> >
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > I do have a Dictator and Consul's declaration saying
> > that Roma IS in
> > the USA.
> >
> > See
> > http://www.romegeorgia.com/capwolf.html
> >
> > <Big Grin>
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: [Fellowship-of-Isis] FW:] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity -An Affirmation
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:42:35 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: Sue L Flaxman
To: mesidhe@--------
Cc: big_fat_bean@-------- ; merlinia@home.com ; Books1985@aol.com ; shari.finkel@csfb.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:50 AM
Subject: Fw: [Fellowship-of-Isis] FW:] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity -An Affirmation

Morgaine--et al
This is from my Pagan group...Blessed be, little one...
Love,
Livy
Please forward to whoever you want...

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Elda Lantz" <eldalea@-------->
To: <IsisMagic@-------->, <Fellowship-of-Isis@-------->
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:25:28 -0700
Subject: [Fellowship-of-Isis] FW:] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity
-An Affirmation
Message-ID: <001f01c13bfc$8628c220$ce1277d8@oemcomputer>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I received the following from Mary K. Greer today and wanted to share with
all of you.

Elda
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary K. Greer
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:49 PM
To: Isis Aurea; Marilyn Nyborg
Subject: [iaurea] Letter to the Terrorists from Humanity -An Affirmation

I am not the author of this letter (see below) but please read
and pass on if you agree.

Sept. 12, 2001
To the terrorists,

Though I do not yet know your names, I know what you have done.
You should know that though you knock down our towers, you can
not bring down our power. Though you shadow us in smoke- born
darkness, know from within our hearts, within our minds our
Light will still shine. Though I mourn our dead, I celebrate
their lives. What each gave can not be stolen from us no matter
how hard you try. Our will to go on is their shrine. I let them
all be reborn in me today. Though you alter our flights and
metal birds fall to ignite columns of solidity to flame, our
souls by violence you can not claim.

I do not know your names yet. But be assured that today, I will
ask the name of someone who passes me on the street. I might
have let an unknown person slip away last week, but today I will
offer comfort to all and make love known. Today there is no such
thing as a stranger. Many have asked me Were you there? Many
have asked if I knew anyone who died or was injured there. I
tell you that without doubt that I knew them all. I have held my
child in love as they held their children. I have dreamed as
they did. I have eaten food as they did. I have climbed stairs
only to run down them for my life with an unthinkable threat
behind me and the hope of life ahead of me. They are all me no
matter what name they answered to. I am them. Mothers, brothers,
fathers, sisters, sons, daughters friends, my self, my family.
Though you tumble our towers they can not bring down our power.
Be assured my blood will continue to beat in a million hearts.

For in all your inflicted horror, I will love with greater depth
today. Be assured that today, I am the new mother and father of
each child you rendered an orphan. I am the one who will fill in
the gaps your violence had left. I will lift rubble. I will bury
the dead. I will comfort the sorrowing. I will righteously rage
at your injustice. I will rebuild what you tear down. I will
heal what you damage. I will give back what you take. In this
way, I will not l not you win. For in the end you seek to bring,
I vow that a greater Unity will begin. Though you bring down our
towers, you can not end our power. I will not let you make me
hate. In Love I will move forward, onward and upward. This you
can not stop. I am Love Rising from the ashes you have left us.

Though metalic birds crash , you can not ground the soaring
spirit of those who love. Know this, for every part of me you
have killed, for every part of me , you have wounded, you have
awaken a stronger part which refuses to become as you are. I am
the Phoenix-Eagle rising from the ashes of your burning hate.
Though you have stolen many feathers from my united wings, I
will fly in your face. I will make the immortality of my will to
rise known. I am the spirit that nests in all human places.
Though you rob me of thousands, more have opened themselves to
me in the wake of your destruction. I will not be defeated. I
will not become like you. I will love in the ashes. I will nest
in the rubble. I will love and I will protect all for I am no
longer separate from those who have been knocked out of the sky.
I am one with those who have been cast down from the very top of
all we have built and dreamed of. Though you bring down our
flights and topple our towers, we know our true power. It shall
not die but rise above all you have done.

I have awoken and you have been warned. Make no mistake, we are
now One. Still we will fly and reach new heights for in the
depths of the horror you have inflicted each ended life has been
reborn in our determination. Though you bring down our towers,
still my love move and will go on in true power. You will come
to know that their is but one name now. I am Humanity. I will
not lose my soul though you kill my bodies.

I am Love. I will speak, give of myself and fight hate from
every willing heart. I vow to be the blessing in the face of
your curse. Long after all of you are forgotten dust, I will
remain. In me will be preserved all that you tried to end. I am
the healing after the
wound. I am Love and there fore hate's ultimate doom. I am no
longer a
victim but victorious.

Rising in Love,

Rev. Laeaurra Flamehawk-Mitchell,
Interfaith Order of Intercession

I wrote this letter not because I am some sort of special or
holy messenger but because within my grief and my rage I have
words when many do not. Read it. Sign it and pass it on if you
agree with what it says and are willing to be one of Love's
answers to hate. Let it circle the globe. Let it be a message, a
vow and an answer from this moment on. Let it be one of many
united memorials and monuments. Though we sign this with many
letters of many languages we are one name, Humanity.

Blessings,
Rev. Laeaurra Flamehawk-Mitchell

Iseum Isis Aurea
http://isisaurea.freeyellow.com

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Subject:	[novaroma] Maybe OT: The Rules of War & Islam
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:03:31 EDT

Greetings one and all,
I received this off the Immortal rgp e-mail list. As a Middle eastern
reenactor in the SCA. I knew many of these but not all of them. This make for
thoughtful reading.
Janet
Aminah
Drusila

< Found on a Usenet Group I frequent and possibly of interest to those who
have avatars from the time of the Prophet:
(Forwarded from Shyamma bint Yusef [shyamma@--------])

Per the rules of War & Islam, the following has been
prohibited by Prophet Muhammad more than 1400 years ago:

1. Killing traders, merchants, contractors and the like, they are to be
spared if they do not take part in actual fighting (kharaj of Yahya p
34, Kharaj of Abu Yusufp 122)

2. Killing non Combatants (Mabsit of Sarakhisiy, X, 64);

3. Combatants are only those who are physically capable of fighting
(Sharhj al siyar al kabir, IV,78).

4. Killing women (Idem, I, 59, 34), minors, servants, and slaves who
accompany their masters yet do not take part in actual fighting (Sharhj
al siyar al kabir, IV, 79-80), the blind (Mabsit of Sarakhsiy, X,
69), monks (Sharhj al siyar al kabir, I, 33), hermits (Idem, III, 190),
the very old (Mabsut of Sarakhsiy, X, 6), those physically incapable of
fighting (Idem, p69), the insane or delirious (Mabsut of Sarakhsiy p 69)

5. Killing peasants when they do not fight and the result of war is
indifferent on them (Idem, IV, 79; for order and practice of Abu Bakr
see Tabari 2026, 2031; for Umar see Ibn Rush Bidayah alk Masjtihad
I 311)

And Allah the Almighty states in the Quran:
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do NOT transgress
limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors" [Surah al Baqara (2): 190]

the Prophet said:
"Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat
you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you will do
wrong; but accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not
to do wrong if they do evil." [Tirmidhi 5129]

--
Wraith
Sometimes in our lives, we all have pain / We all have sorrow / But if
we are wise, we know that there's / Always tomorrow

Lean on me, when you're not strong / And I'll be you friend / I'll help
you carry on / For it won't be long, that I'm gonna need / Somebody to
lean on
- "Lean On Me" (As recorded by Bill Withers) BILL WITHERS. >>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20Sorrow=20and=20Rage?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:46:59 +0200

Very well formulated, dear citizen.

Thank you, Tiberus Annaeus Otho

-- Original-Nachricht --

>Salve Antonia Cornelia Octavia
>
>I don't know if you are aware of what you are implying in here. If
>Nova Roma is another name for the USA, and if because it started in
>USA it gives more right to US citizens to direct its course, then you
>must agree that I am misplaced here. I am european from Portugal and
>I am surely as proud of being european as you are of being an US
>citizen. Besides, the US were not the only country to model its
>structure after Rome, for I believe that all western countries have
>done it one way or another. On the other hand I believe that neither
>USA's nor EU's international policy have been in any way related to
>the Virtutes, though I admit that the Romans behaved in a much
>similar way in practice. In ancient times enemies were accused of
>performing human sacrifice, while nowadays they are accused of not
>being Democratic. All is relative.
>I hope you will consider my words and recognise that such statements
>can only contribute to divide Nova Roma between US and non-US
>citizens. And believe me: there are many non-US citizens as well, and
>many even speak languages that evolved directly from Latin, and some
>can even see Roman monuments on the other side of the street. I hope
>you will be able to recognise non-US citizens as Romans of Nova Roma
>in the same way that I recognise you, who lives on the other side of
>the Atlantic Ocean.
>
>Vale bene
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Pontifex, Senator, Sacerdos Militarium, Propraetor Lusitaniae pro
>Romae, civis novus romanus
>
>
>
>--- In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
>> Salve,
>>
>> It was Americans who started Nova Roma. How un
>> American is that? We Americans modeled our own
>> government after the ancient Roman Republic and
>> instead of berating us for associating ourselves with
>> Rome and Italy you should feel flattered that the most
>> powerful nation on earth is very much like Rome. I am
>> very proud of that.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Antonia Cornelia Octavia

________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Maybe OT: The Rules of War & Islam
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:37:57 -0000

Ave, Drusilla, and Avete Omnes,

Thanks for the valuable insight and specific information. We have had
some attacks on Muslim mosques here in the D/FW Texas area, which is
an ugly and reactionary response that is not justified by the
circumstances at all - it's shameful and reprehensible. I don't
believe any significant damage has been done in these attacks so far,
nor are there casualties as far as I know. Islam is NOT our enemy.
Your post serves as a reminder of the stated peaceful and civilized
ideals that Islam was founded on - as a definite non-Muslim, I can
still respect and admire those ideals.

Salve,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

--- In novaroma@--------, asseri@a... wrote:
> Greetings one and all,
> I received this off the Immortal rgp e-mail list. As a
Middle eastern
> reenactor in the SCA. I knew many of these but not all of them.
This make for
> thoughtful reading.
> Janet
> Aminah
> Drusila
>
> < Found on a Usenet Group I frequent and possibly of interest to
those who
> have avatars from the time of the Prophet:
&--------(Forwarded from Shyamma bint Yusef [shyamma@--------])
>
> Per the rules of War & Islam, the following has been
> prohibited by Prophet Muhammad more than 1400 years ago:
>
> 1. Killing traders, merchants, contractors and the like, they are
to be
> spared if they do not take part in actual fighting (kharaj of Yahya
p
> 34, Kharaj of Abu Yusufp 122)
>
> 2. Killing non Combatants (Mabsit of Sarakhisiy, X, 64);
>
> 3. Combatants are only those who are physically capable of fighting
> (Sharhj al siyar al kabir, IV,78).
>
> 4. Killing women (Idem, I, 59, 34), minors, servants, and slaves who
> accompany their masters yet do not take part in actual fighting
(Sharhj
> al siyar al kabir, IV, 79-80), the blind (Mabsit of Sarakhsiy, X,
> 69), monks (Sharhj al siyar al kabir, I, 33), hermits (Idem, III,
190),
> the very old (Mabsut of Sarakhsiy, X, 6), those physically
incapable of
> fighting (Idem, p69), the insane or delirious (Mabsut of Sarakhsiy
p 69)
>
> 5. Killing peasants when they do not fight and the result of war is
> indifferent on them (Idem, IV, 79; for order and practice of Abu
Bakr
> see Tabari 2026, 2031; for Umar see Ibn Rush Bidayah alk Masjtihad
> I 311)
>
> And Allah the Almighty states in the Quran:
> "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do NOT
transgress
> limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors" [Surah al Baqara (2):
190]
>
> the Prophet said:
> "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others
treat
> you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you
will do
> wrong; but accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not
> to do wrong if they do evil." [Tirmidhi 5129]
>
> --
> Wraith
> Sometimes in our lives, we all have pain / We all have sorrow / But
if
> we are wise, we know that there's / Always tomorrow
>
> Lean on me, when you're not strong / And I'll be you friend / I'll
help
> you carry on / For it won't be long, that I'm gonna need / Somebody
to
> lean on
> - "Lean On Me" (As recorded by Bill Withers) BILL WITHERS. >>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:03:32 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

You have misinterpreted my comments. They were
directed at an individual who stated that the U.S. and
Nova Roma has no right to compare itself to Roma or
Italy and that we are not worthy of comparison. These
were insulting remarks directed at Nova Roma and the
United States. I was simply correcting him in this
that both Nova Roma and the United States have modeled
themselves after Roma and that shows how we honor Roma
by emulating her. Please reread the previous threads
pertaining to this and the comments below. This was
in no way meant to degrade or impugn any other
nation's worth. But as as citizen of the United States
and Nova Roma I have the right to defend anyone who
degrades or impugns our worth.

Vale,

Antonio Cornelia Octavia

--- amg@-------- wrote:
> Salve Antonia Cornelia Octavia
>
> I don't know if you are aware of what you are
> implying in here. If
> Nova Roma is another name for the USA, and if
> because it started in
> USA it gives more right to US citizens to direct its
> course, then you
> must agree that I am misplaced here. I am european
> from Portugal and
> I am surely as proud of being european as you are of
> being an US
> citizen. Besides, the US were not the only country
> to model its
> structure after Rome, for I believe that all western
> countries have
> done it one way or another. On the other hand I
> believe that neither
> USA's nor EU's international policy have been in any
> way related to
> the Virtutes, though I admit that the Romans behaved
> in a much
> similar way in practice. In ancient times enemies
> were accused of
> performing human sacrifice, while nowadays they are
> accused of not
> being Democratic. All is relative.
> I hope you will consider my words and recognise that
> such statements
> can only contribute to divide Nova Roma between US
> and non-US
> citizens. And believe me: there are many non-US
> citizens as well, and
> many even speak languages that evolved directly from
> Latin, and some
> can even see Roman monuments on the other side of
> the street. I hope
> you will be able to recognise non-US citizens as
> Romans of Nova Roma
> in the same way that I recognise you, who lives on
> the other side of
> the Atlantic Ocean.
>
> Vale bene
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> Pontifex, Senator, Sacerdos Militarium, Propraetor
> Lusitaniae pro
> Romae, civis novus romanus
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia
> <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > It was Americans who started Nova Roma. How un
> > American is that? We Americans modeled our own
> > government after the ancient Roman Republic and
> > instead of berating us for associating ourselves
> with
> > Rome and Italy you should feel flattered that the
> most
> > powerful nation on earth is very much like Rome.
> I am
> > very proud of that.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Antonia Cornelia Octavia
> >
> >
> > --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@-------->
> > wrote:
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, "Antonio Grilo" <amg@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Salvete omnes
> > > >
> > > > In fact Roma is not the USA and it is my
> opinion
> > > that we should
> > > avoid by all
> > > > means such an identification.
> > >
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > I do have a Dictator and Consul's declaration
> saying
> > > that Roma IS in
> > > the USA.
> > >
> > > See
> > > http://www.romegeorgia.com/capwolf.html
> > >
> > > <Big Grin>
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> >
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:46:22 -0400

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

With respect to this issue I would like to state that while Nova Roma was founded by citizens of the United State there has been no statement by them or in the founding documents that Nova Roma is anything other than an international effort directed "to the study and restoration of ancient Roman culture."
However, I have received numerous times, as a result of my offices, correspondence to the effect "what do you know about Roma? Roma is Europe." This attitude has also been expressed, though perhaps less obtusely, on this list at various times. I don't believe that any 'Americans' have ever stated or implied that Nova Roma was 'for Americans only', but rather there has been some resentment of that fact that so far the majority of citizens and magistrates are from the United States. (These are my observations)
In my opinion the main ingredients that are needed to alter these perceptions are time and familiarity to build trust among us. I believe that those citizens, from whatever locations in the world, who have been citizens for sometime have come to the realization that we do indeed welcome all who wish to join us in our effort to restore of ancient Roman culture. However, do consider that we citizens of the "New World" will be sensitive to criticism of us because we don't happen to live in those physical areas once inhabited by citizens of the Roman 'Empire' or even Roma itself.
Remember that while we welcome those who join us to help build, there will be resentment to those who only offer criticism. Fortunately we have been blessed with many new citizens who have brought exceptional talents to our Magnus Opus. I think there are a few of my fellow magistrates who understand me when I say that I look forward to the day when I can hand over my responsibilities to a fellow citizen who will build upon what we have begun.

As we have seen in the last few days it is far easier to destroy than to construct.
Id te Iuppiter prohibessit!

What can take a lifetime to build can be torn down in a very short time, but in the true Roman spirit as builders we will rebuild bigger and better.

Bene omnibus nobis!

--- In novaroma@--------, amg@c... wrote:
> Salve Antonia Cornelia Octavia
>
> I don't know if you are aware of what you are implying in here. If
> Nova Roma is another name for the USA, and if because it started in
> USA it gives more right to US citizens to direct its course,
<SNIP>
> you will be able to recognise non-US citizens as Romans of Nova Roma in the same way that I recognise you, who lives on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.
>
> Vale bene
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> Pontifex, Senator, Sacerdos Militarium, Propraetor Lusitaniae pro
> Romae, civis novus romanus
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > It was Americans who started Nova Roma. How un
> > American is that? We Americans modeled our own
> > government after the ancient Roman Republic and
> > instead of berating us for associating ourselves with
> > Rome and Italy you should feel flattered that the most
> > powerful nation on earth is very much like Rome. I am
> > very proud of that.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Antonia Cornelia Octavia
> >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XVIII Kalendas Octobres (September 14th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:03:01 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies fasti (F), a day on which legal action can take
place.

Today is an Equorum Probatio (Parade of the Horses), probably similar to the
Equitum Probatio (Parade of the Horsemen) that takes place on July 15th. As
this date is not marked in the Fasti Antiates Maiores (a surviving calendar
from the time of the republic), there is the possibility that September 14th
was not celebrated before the imperial period.
For a description of the parade on July 15th see Dionysius of Halicarnassus
6.13.14.

The Ludi Romani continue.

The month of September is sacred to Vulcan.

Di vos incolumes serviant,
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	[novaroma] Accident
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:18:36 -0400 (EDT)

To My Nova Roma Friends;

My apologies if I have seemed not to be active in my duties for the last
few days. Last Sunday night my wife and I were engaged in a serious
single car accident in excess of 100 miles from our home. While neither
my wife or I sustaind any severe injuries, the van in which we were
traveling has been totally wrecked.

This combined with the terrible events of last Tuesday, have occupied me
and my family to an overwhelming extent since then.

I now have a much better understanding of the hatred directed against
American's from outside this country. It is difficult for me to
understand based on our past history, and on my personal interaction
with my friends in Europe and Asia not to mention those in Africa and
South America, but I suppose that I must be somewhat nieve in my views.
The events of last Tuesday certainly reflect that unhappy view.

At any event, you have my apologies for my absence, and at least one if
not two reasons for it. America will overcome this last terrible
assault and will come back stronger than she has ever been, if somewhat
less nieve, as I have been, about those who hate us.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:09:21 -0300

"Nick R. Ramos Jr." wrote:
>
> Is military retaliation to an act of war terrorism?

Killing non-involved civilians by attacking a foreign country because
some of their residents is involved is terrorism.

> Should we have
> apologized to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Make no mistake, Mane
> Limitane, this is even worse than Pearl Harbor - not only anact of
> undeclared war, but one perpetrated against civilian targets, using
> civilian aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.
>

I often thnk the japanese for bringing the USA in WWII, it helped save
Europe from the totalitarianisms :)

> Escalation? Do you honestly think that this is not war?

No it is not war. A war happens between to organized states (or between
an organized state and a wannabe state). Here we have the opposition
between a state (the USA) and it seems individuals since no organization
proclamed itself responsible for those acts.

Escalation: if you react against innocents their friends/sons will join
the terrorist organization.
Terrorism is an old problem, what you see today in the USA is a pale
remnant of the strength of terrorism in the 70's. Terrorism was
vanquished in most of Europe by cutting of the popular bases and
recruiting grounds for the terrorists, both in Italy and Germany. This
was done by bettering the life conditions/housing conditions of the poor
people, after that the erradication of the RAF and BR was only a matter
of effective Police action. The IRA is coming to an end because the
Irish feel that they can get better results through the Sinn Fein.
ETA is still alive (at least in Spain, in France it is quite still),
I don t know why nor the way of action of the Spanish government. (Salix
?).

> Then my
> friend, mea apologia, but you are dead wrong, and there is no point
> in any further discussion. We will take the measures necessary to
> bring Iustitia to those who committed this crime.

I can only fully support this: bring Justitia to those who commited
(well they are already dead) and were acomplices in this crime. Don t
bring revange on those who are just neighbours of the acomplices.

> And if the
> information available is right, these folks are those who would kill
> you and me for being keffirs, "infidels" that deserve to die. No
> peace is possible with us, Allah commands that we be slaughtered.
>

Allah never commanded any thing like that, the Coran is a book of
religious tolerance (if you pay the tribute), don t confuse with the
christian doctrine.
It was not the musims that said "Kill them all, god will recognize its
sheeps"

They are not fitting keffirs, they are fighting for something (I don t
know what, but it is clearly not a religious issue).

> As for me, I will not bar my Iugula for their sword. Me, I vote that
> we extirpate this cancer upon Islam, and upon humanity. Many Muslims
> are innocent of this crime - may we not harm even one of them. As for
> the guilty - may we not leave one alive. And the Gods have mercy upon
> us.

Muslims are innocent for that crime, some individuals are guilty.

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Accident
From:	a.cato@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:01:48 -0000

Salve Senatori: I thank the Gods and Goddesses that you and your
wife are safe my friend. I pray that you both recover quickly from
the tragedies of the last week. The contributions from your posts are
always valuable to us, but only when you are ready.
Bene vale, ... Appius Cato

..., jmath669642reng@-------- --------e:
> To My Nova Roma Friends;
>
> My apologies if I have seemed not to be active in my duties for the
last
> few days. Last Sunday night my wife and I were engaged in a serious
> single car accident in excess of 100 miles from our home. While
neither
> my wife or I sustaind any severe injuries, the van in which we were
> traveling has been totally wrecked.
>
> This combined with the terrible events of last Tuesday, have
occupied me
> and my family to an overwhelming extent since then.
>
> I now have a much better understanding of the hatred directed
against
> American's from outside this country. It is difficult for me to
> understand based on our past history, and on my personal interaction
> with my friends in Europe and Asia not to mention those in Africa
and
> South America, but I suppose that I must be somewhat nieve in my
views.
> The events of last Tuesday certainly reflect that unhappy view.
>
> At any event, you have my apologies for my absence, and at least
one if
> not two reasons for it. America will overcome this last terrible
> assault and will come back stronger than she has ever been, if
somewhat
> less nieve, as I have been, about those who hate us.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Fw: A Tribute to the United States
From:	a.cato@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:34:02 -0000

Salve Antonia Cornelia Octavia: Many thanks for you kind reply. I
am saddened to say that not all Canadians feel as I do. But they are
in the minority. Yes Antonia Cornelia, the United States has many
good friends in Canada. Our two countries may have small
disagreements over some issues, but I like to think of these
disagreements as disagreements between brothers or sisters. I might
have a bad argument with my older brother, but if he is attacked with
violence by someone, I would do whatever it takes to come to his aid.
Thai is how I feel about our good neighbors to the south. Take care,
and my best wishes to you all in these difficult times.
Bene vale, ... Appius Tullius Cato

..., AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@--------> wrote:
> Salve Appius tullius Cato,
>
> Thank you for sharing your kind thoughts. It is
> friends such as yourself that make us feel that we are
> doing something right in the world.
>
> Vale,
>
> Antonia Cornelia Octavia
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	[novaroma] Condolences from Provincia Gallia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:44:54 +0200

Salvete Omnes.

I wish to express in the name of every citizen of Provincia Gallia all our
deep condolences to our fellowcitizens in the
USA. This drama lets me without word, and I hope every of our fellows along
with family is safe and unharmed. This is great suffering for the whole
world, wether we are part of a micro or macro nation.

Let us not forget where hatred can lead and let Nova Roma choose the way of
wisdom.

I was abroad for three days, and consecutive traffic troubles prevented me
from expressing my sympathies as soon as I would have liked to.

I wish to support particularly Nova Roman citizens in the US involved in
National Guard actions.

Valete Optime Omnes
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Accident
From:	scriba_forum@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:13:59 -0000

---
Salve Proconsul Audens:

I pray for a speedy recovery for you and your wife. I wish you the
very best, always, sir.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> To My Nova Roma Friends;
>
> My apologies if I have seemed not to be active in my duties for the
last
> few days. Last Sunday night my wife and I were engaged in a serious
> single car accident in excess of 100 miles from our home. While
neither
> my wife or I sustaind any severe injuries, the van in which we were
> traveling has been totally wrecked.
>
> This combined with the terrible events of last Tuesday, have
occupied me
> and my family to an overwhelming extent since then.
>
> I now have a much better understanding of the hatred directed
against
> American's from outside this country. It is difficult for me to
> understand based on our past history, and on my personal interaction
> with my friends in Europe and Asia not to mention those in Africa
and
> South America, but I suppose that I must be somewhat nieve in my
views.
> The events of last Tuesday certainly reflect that unhappy view.
>
> At any event, you have my apologies for my absence, and at least one
if
> not two reasons for it. America will overcome this last terrible
> assault and will come back stronger than she has ever been, if
somewhat
> less nieve, as I have been, about those who hate us.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] ETA (was Re: OT A world called to action....)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:17:36 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

It seems like I have been requested to provide some information.
If that was not the case, please forgive me.

--- loos@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> ETA is still alive (at least in Spain, in France it is quite still),
> I don t know why nor the way of action of the Spanish government.
> (Salix?).

ETA still attacks very frequently. Its most recent tactics (for the
last couple of years) have been attacking town council members of
non-nationalist (Basque nationalist) parties all around Spain, to
induce terror in non-nationalist voters, as well as coarsing the
freedom of speech of non-nationalist journalist, professors, teachers,
syndicate members, artists, etc...

Why? Because they have not understood yet that their claimed objectives
(to found an independent Basque nation following the model of communist
Albania (?!) ) do not hide their true objectives any more: they are
professional criminals who can not find a different way to earn for a
living than by the extortion of Basque and Spanish businessmen and the
economical support of those that still believe in their lies (a
permanently shrinking minority, thanks goodness and common sense).

The response of the Spanish and Basque governments is basically a law
enforcement approach. Most political parties agree in that terrorism
should not be "rewarded" by negotiating with the terrorists, although
some Basque nationalist parties think otherwise.

There is a possibility that this recent disaster might help general
opinion to understand that ETA is NOT a group of freedom-fighters
(there is a democratic Basque government whose degree of autonomy would
be very surprising for the Sinn Fein, which agrees to negotiate for
benefits the Basque autonomy has superated since the late 1970's).

Let's hope that other nations will stop "protecting" these criminals
(have you ever wondered why there is no Basque terrorism in France,
were the Basque have NO autonomous government at all? It might be
slightly connected to the fact that hardly ALL the terrorist peacefully
reside in the French Basque Country).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:40:47 -0400

Salvete

My apologies to both the list in general and Titus Octavius in particular. I
had mistakenly thought I was replying to Tiberius Annaeus, whose words I
found offensive and inappropriate, and quite deserving of a scornful reply.
I was mistaken, and wholeheartedly apologize to Titus Octavius.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus [mailto:germanicus@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:58 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
>
>
> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: from@--------
> [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf Of
> Kristoffer From
> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:17 PM
> >
> > I start off by apologizing; I'm tired, and as you all know by know, when
> > I'm tired, I lack finesse. Sometimes I'm even just plain rude.
>
> Perhaps you should consider just not posting in such circumstances; we can
> all wait 8 hours or so until we receive the benefit of your wisdom and
> insight, I'm sure. It might very well save a lot of heartache and bother.
> The rest of us manage to do so; "Sometimes I'm just a rude sonofabitch"
> isn't quite an adequate explanation. Learn to behave like a normal person,
> or just shut the hell up.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>