Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:05:25 -0000

A few comments, if I may:

--- In novaroma@--------, loos@q... wrote:
> "Nick R. Ramos Jr." wrote:
> >
> > Is military retaliation to an act of war terrorism?
>
> Killing non-involved civilians by attacking a foreign country
because
> some of their residents is involved is terrorism.

But killing combatants and those who train in terror is not. That is
what I meant about military retaliation.

>
> > Should we have
> > apologized to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Make no mistake,
Mane
> > Limitane, this is even worse than Pearl Harbor - not only anact of
> > undeclared war, but one perpetrated against civilian targets,
using
> > civilian aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.
> >
>
> I often thnk the japanese for bringing the USA in WWII, it helped
save
> Europe from the totalitarianisms :)
>
>
> > Escalation? Do you honestly think that this is not war?
>
> No it is not war. A war happens between to organized states (or
between
> an organized state and a wannabe state). Here we have the opposition
> between a state (the USA) and it seems individuals since no
organization
> proclamed itself responsible for those acts.
>

Sorry, you are wrong. This is war - Jihad! It has been proclaimed by
several fatwas issued by bin Laden and by the Taliban, and by others.
And it is cowardly war at that - one that targets those specifically
exempt by the Holy Q'uran from being targeted. Know thy enemy -
understand the fact that they are preaching Jihad, nothing else; and
promising the faithful that they will be in Paradise if they fall in
battle.

> Escalation: if you react against innocents their friends/sons will
join
> the terrorist organization.
> Terrorism is an old problem, what you see today in the USA is a pale
> remnant of the strength of terrorism in the 70's. Terrorism was
> vanquished in most of Europe by cutting of the popular bases and
> recruiting grounds for the terrorists, both in Italy and Germany.
This
> was done by bettering the life conditions/housing conditions of the
poor
> people, after that the erradication of the RAF and BR was only a
matter
> of effective Police action. The IRA is coming to an end because the
> Irish feel that they can get better results through the Sinn Fein.
> ETA is still alive (at least in Spain, in France it is quite
still),
> I don t know why nor the way of action of the Spanish government.
(Salix
> ?).

You forget conveniently that the U.S. has tried very gingerly over
the past decade to improve it's relations with all the Middle Eastern
nations. Witness the recent rapproachment with Iran and other
nations, and the fact that although we could have certainly engaged
in a campaign of annihilation against Iraq, we have not done so. We
have backed Yasser Arafat in his efforts to deal with Israel - and
what was the payback? Palestinians dancing in the streets, ecstatic
that thousands of Americans had been hurt or killed.

>
> > Then my
> > friend, mea apologia, but you are dead wrong, and there is no
point
> > in any further discussion. We will take the measures necessary to
> > bring Iustitia to those who committed this crime.
>
> I can only fully support this: bring Justitia to those who commited
> (well they are already dead) and were acomplices in this crime. Don
t
> bring revange on those who are just neighbours of the acomplices.

Agreed.

>
> > And if the
> > information available is right, these folks are those who would
kill
> > you and me for being keffirs, "infidels" that deserve to die. No
> > peace is possible with us, Allah commands that we be slaughtered.
> >
>
> Allah never commanded any thing like that, the Coran is a book of
> religious tolerance (if you pay the tribute), don t confuse with the
> christian doctrine.
> It was not the musims that said "Kill them all, god will recognize
its
> sheeps"
>
> They are not fitting keffirs, they are fighting for something (I
don t
> know what, but it is clearly not a religious issue).


Apparently, you have not read or heard any of the fatwas pronounced
against the U.S. by these folks, nor seen them marching against "The
Great Satan" as they call the U.S. Not to be arrogant, but please
find out a little bit more about what you are talking about before
engaging in an argument.

>
> > As for me, I will not bar my Iugula for their sword. Me, I vote
that
> > we extirpate this cancer upon Islam, and upon humanity. Many
Muslims
> > are innocent of this crime - may we not harm even one of them. As
for
> > the guilty - may we not leave one alive. And the Gods have mercy
upon
> > us.
>
> Muslims are innocent for that crime, some individuals are guilty.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement above. Let me clarify one
thing. I have a Lodge brother who is Muslim, and is an excellent
example of the teachings of Islam. I have known a few other Muslims
in my life, and I deeply respect them and their religious ideals. As
for the beasts that planned and executed this - although they call
themselves Muslim, and cloak themselves in pious hypocrisy, they are
not Muslims. They are a cancer,a walking disease upon Islam and upon
the world, that must be eradicated. May Allah grant that.

Mane Villi, I understand English is not your first language, and that
we have had misunderstandings in the past because of this. Please do
make an effort to understand what I am saying before commenting on
it. It was readily apparent that you did not understand my prior
posting.

Bene vale in pace Deorum,
Marius Cornelius Scipio

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: BA - Post I found on the net]
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:27:05 -0400

So was I! I remember reading that editorial way back when. I had just joined the Navy (little hippy me!!)
Helena/Teleri
----- Original Message -----
From: VMoeller@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: BA - Post I found on the net]


Ave Pater:

(I'm revealing my age)...but... this editorial was written by Mr. Sinclair circa 1974 at the time President Nixon resigned from office.

While the details are a bit dated (The Airbus is a very comfortable and well designed aircraft, and many nations did send helpful crews to the Oklahoma City Bombing site to assist the recovery effort) I believe the sentiments Gordon Sinclair expressed then are just as trenchant today.

Thanks for sharing this. For a moment I was 17 all over again! : )

---Secunda

Subject:	[novaroma] RE: [asatru_N_action] Nova Roma (was: FW: Article: The Case for Rage and Retribution)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:55:17 -0400

Salvete and Heilsan;

(I'll be sending this to the Nova Roma email list as well...)

-----Original Message-----
> From: Harbard [mailto:harbard@--------]
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:44 PM
> To: asatru_N_action@--------
> Subject: [asatru_N_action] Nova Roma (was: FW: [novaroma] Article: The
Case for Rage and
> Retribution)
>
> Kinsfolk;
>
> I have a question that has been nagging at me for some time - and
this is
> an honest question, so friends of Nova Romans please don't jump all over
me
> before reading it through. I have been vaguely aware of Nova Roma for
> some time, but have had little real information, as they seem to be even
> more insular than we are. I know that they are a tribalist revival of
> pre-draugrtru southern European heritage, culture, and spirituality, as we
> are of northern European, and that there is a certain 'all heathens
> together' feeling about them. My question is this; from what little I
> have learned, they are even more traditionalist than we are, and
> traditionally the Romans and the Germanic tribes have not exactly been
> friends. Where do they stand on this?
>
> Farheil,
>
> Harbard
>
> ==
> Salty spray upon my face, Nordic steel in hand,
> Spirit bold and courage true, Hail to our Northern land.

As many here probably know, I am the co-founder of Nova Roma and one of its
two Consuls for this year, so naturally I was going to open my big yap on
this one. :-)

It probably is accurate to say Nova Roma is "more traditionalist" than most
Ásatrúar, but that does not in any way carry over to any animosity between
Nova Romans and Heathens (as Pip, Will, I, and probably others are no doubt
ample proof). Nova Roma is open to followers of all faiths, from Jews to
Roman pagans, from Heathens to Christians; that, we believe, reflects the
cosmopolitan nature of ancient Rome, and was something we sought to feature
in our own revival of Roman culture. Even I, who am a Norse "Edda Thumper"
in my own beliefs and practices (except where I am required to perform rites
according to the Roman tradition as part of my duties), am embraced by my
fellow citizens and have been honored by being elected to the highest
magistracy. As we say on the website, "All that's required is a love of all
things Roman."

Too, I think the animosity between the Germanic tribes and Rome is often
overstated, particularly within the Heathen community. Don't forget that
Arminius (Herman, the German leader of the Battle of Teutoberger Forest)
served in the Roman army for many years before he turned against Rome, and
the gradual Romanization of Germania was not exactly opposed by all of the
tribes therein. The Goths, for example were for many years allies of Rome
and guardians of her borders, as were many of the other smaller Germanic
tribes. Many Germans served as auxiliaries within the Legions and often were
rewarded with Roman citizenship, and there is ample evidence of centuries of
peaceful trade between Germans and Romans along the frontiers of the Rhine
and Danube.

So, the short answer is, Nova Roma welcomes Germanic Heathens in its ranks,
and indeed embraces them as valuable citizens and friends, just as ancient
Rome welcomed Germanii in its armies, its citizenship rolls, and its
society.

Valete and Ár ok friðr,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus, aka Úlfgrímr

Subject:	[novaroma] Powerful image
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:34:01 -0400

http://herald-sun.com/nationworld/14-140130.html

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:05:32 -0300

Salve,

we do agree

Manius Villius Limitanus


Em Friday 14 September 2001 20:05, Nick R. Ramos Jr. escreveu:
>A few comments, if I may:
>
>--- In novaroma@--------, loos@q... wrote:
>> "Nick R. Ramos Jr." wrote:
>> >
>> > Is military retaliation to an act of war terrorism?
>>
>> Killing non-involved civilians by attacking a foreign country
>because
>> some of their residents is involved is terrorism.
>
>But killing combatants and those who train in terror is not. That is
>what I meant about military retaliation.
>
>>
>> > Should we have
>> > apologized to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Make no mistake,
>Mane
>> > Limitane, this is even worse than Pearl Harbor - not only anact of
>> > undeclared war, but one perpetrated against civilian targets,
>using
>> > civilian aircraft as weapons of mass destruction.
>> >
>>
>> I often thnk the japanese for bringing the USA in WWII, it helped
>save
>> Europe from the totalitarianisms :)
>>
>>
>> > Escalation? Do you honestly think that this is not war?
>>
>> No it is not war. A war happens between to organized states (or
>between
>> an organized state and a wannabe state). Here we have the opposition
>> between a state (the USA) and it seems individuals since no
>organization
>> proclamed itself responsible for those acts.
>>
>
>Sorry, you are wrong. This is war - Jihad! It has been proclaimed by
>several fatwas issued by bin Laden and by the Taliban, and by others.
>And it is cowardly war at that - one that targets those specifically
>exempt by the Holy Q'uran from being targeted. Know thy enemy -
>understand the fact that they are preaching Jihad, nothing else; and
>promising the faithful that they will be in Paradise if they fall in
>battle.
>
>> Escalation: if you react against innocents their friends/sons will
>join
>> the terrorist organization.
>> Terrorism is an old problem, what you see today in the USA is a pale
>> remnant of the strength of terrorism in the 70's. Terrorism was
>> vanquished in most of Europe by cutting of the popular bases and
>> recruiting grounds for the terrorists, both in Italy and Germany.
>This
>> was done by bettering the life conditions/housing conditions of the
>poor
>> people, after that the erradication of the RAF and BR was only a
>matter
>> of effective Police action. The IRA is coming to an end because the
>> Irish feel that they can get better results through the Sinn Fein.
>> ETA is still alive (at least in Spain, in France it is quite
>still),
>> I don t know why nor the way of action of the Spanish government.
>(Salix
>> ?).
>
>You forget conveniently that the U.S. has tried very gingerly over
>the past decade to improve it's relations with all the Middle Eastern
>nations. Witness the recent rapproachment with Iran and other
>nations, and the fact that although we could have certainly engaged
>in a campaign of annihilation against Iraq, we have not done so. We
>have backed Yasser Arafat in his efforts to deal with Israel - and
>what was the payback? Palestinians dancing in the streets, ecstatic
>that thousands of Americans had been hurt or killed.
>
>>
>> > Then my
>> > friend, mea apologia, but you are dead wrong, and there is no
>point
>> > in any further discussion. We will take the measures necessary to
>> > bring Iustitia to those who committed this crime.
>>
>> I can only fully support this: bring Justitia to those who commited
>> (well they are already dead) and were acomplices in this crime. Don
>t
>> bring revange on those who are just neighbours of the acomplices.
>
>Agreed.
>
>>
>> > And if the
>> > information available is right, these folks are those who would
>kill
>> > you and me for being keffirs, "infidels" that deserve to die. No
>> > peace is possible with us, Allah commands that we be slaughtered.
>> >
>>
>> Allah never commanded any thing like that, the Coran is a book of
>> religious tolerance (if you pay the tribute), don t confuse with the
>> christian doctrine.
>> It was not the musims that said "Kill them all, god will recognize
>its
>> sheeps"
>>
>> They are not fitting keffirs, they are fighting for something (I
>don t
>> know what, but it is clearly not a religious issue).
>
>
>Apparently, you have not read or heard any of the fatwas pronounced
>against the U.S. by these folks, nor seen them marching against "The
>Great Satan" as they call the U.S. Not to be arrogant, but please
>find out a little bit more about what you are talking about before
>engaging in an argument.
>
>>
>> > As for me, I will not bar my Iugula for their sword. Me, I vote
>that
>> > we extirpate this cancer upon Islam, and upon humanity. Many
>Muslims
>> > are innocent of this crime - may we not harm even one of them. As
>for
>> > the guilty - may we not leave one alive. And the Gods have mercy
>upon
>> > us.
>>
>> Muslims are innocent for that crime, some individuals are guilty.
>>
>> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>Perhaps you misunderstood my statement above. Let me clarify one
>thing. I have a Lodge brother who is Muslim, and is an excellent
>example of the teachings of Islam. I have known a few other Muslims
>in my life, and I deeply respect them and their religious ideals. As
>for the beasts that planned and executed this - although they call
>themselves Muslim, and cloak themselves in pious hypocrisy, they are
>not Muslims. They are a cancer,a walking disease upon Islam and upon
>the world, that must be eradicated. May Allah grant that.
>
>Mane Villi, I understand English is not your first language, and that
>we have had misunderstandings in the past because of this. Please do
>make an effort to understand what I am saying before commenting on
>it. It was readily apparent that you did not understand my prior
>posting.
>
>Bene vale in pace Deorum,
>Marius Cornelius Scipio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	"Valerie Hartzer" <valsylph@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:13:27 -0400

Salvete Omnes,

A few points that everyone seems to be forgetting.

1. The World Trade Center was a major financial hub for ALL countries and 20-30 foreign banks traded stocks, securities and other financial goods there every single day. In fact the missing, tally people from around 20 different counties around the world not JUST U.S. citizens.

2. The terror of the crime is that ANYONE would strap a bomb to 300 people and propel it at high force into a building containing potentially 50,000 people. That would be like bombing a soccer/ football /baseball stadium while people are just sitting there. Most terrorist attacks world wide are of a much smaller scale, suitcase bombs on subways, somewhat larger bombs on a mid sized municipal building. But NO ONE has hit one of the largest buildings in the world using unwilling bystanders to deliver the bomb. That is what makes it so ghastly. This moves terrorism as a whole up into the same league with Hitler, Stalin, etc, but all at one time not in a calculated plan over 2-6 years but literally within minutes.That is the true terror that within minutes tens of thousands of people could be wiped off of the face of the earth. Anywhere in the world no matter how many guns, bombs, military personnel etc. a country may possess. And still worse that the perpetrators could carry this out with a minimal amount of easily available training with minimal funds and a few weeks planning.

3. That people are people. No matter where you live, what religion you worship, what people you call family, people all have the same basic physical, emotional and psychological needs. It doesn't matter what your culture defines as socially normative, no culture values the wholesale slaughter of a huge number of people for no reason.

4. That most of people's bickering and squabbling mean absolutely if they are not alive to be bickering and squabbling. And that is one fact I hope is indelibly driven home by this tragedy, that life is beautiful and precious and that we should enjoy it and not waste it all on picking fights. Because when it really come down to it without being alive you have nothing.

Bene vale et In Pace Deorum

Lucia Valeria Secunda Ianuaria Coqua (citizenship/name pending)
"Try to enjoy the great festival of life with other men"
Epictetus







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sorrow and Rage
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:06:26 +0200

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> My apologies to both the list in general and Titus Octavius in particular. I
> had mistakenly thought I was replying to Tiberius Annaeus, whose words I
> found offensive and inappropriate, and quite deserving of a scornful reply.
> I was mistaken, and wholeheartedly apologize to Titus Octavius.

Salve, Flavi Vedi Germanice.

No apology is necessary, consul. My post was needlessly rude, and I wish
to apologize to Antonius Gryllus Graecus as well as the main list in
general for posting without more carefully considering my words. I've
been sick, and I guess my judgement's been somewhat lacking meanwhile.
I'm sorry for any and all offense caused by what I've said, and I will
try to refrain from further postings until I'm healthy once again.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:44:41 -0500

Salve Mari Corneli et salvete omnes

First, this is utterly OT. Anyone who is tired of this thread, please
feel free to stop reading right here.

Second, I only want to comment on one portion of this post. My
statements are only to that specific portion and should not be taken as
an indicator of any stance on my part, whether as a hawk or a dove or
something else, in the greater matter of terrorism and how it should be
handled.

> You forget conveniently that the U.S. has tried very gingerly over
> the past decade to improve it's relations with all the Middle Eastern
> nations. Witness the recent rapproachment with Iran and other
> nations, and the fact that although we could have certainly engaged
> in a campaign of annihilation against Iraq, we have not done so. We
> have backed Yasser Arafat in his efforts to deal with Israel - and
> what was the payback? Palestinians dancing in the streets, ecstatic
> that thousands of Americans had been hurt or killed.


The US policy toward the Middle East has been a systematic program of
attempting to maintain relative peace while thwarting any one country's
ability to gain a dominant position in the region. To that end, the US
bolstered Iraq prior to and during the Iran-Iraq war of the '80s.
Desert Storm was fought in large part because Iraq was threatening to be
able to establish itself as the pre-eminent power. However, it was
important not to destroy Iraq too much in order to maintain a balance
against Iran. Once Iraq began to prove that it was successfully
rebuilding its military infrastructure despite embargoes and no-fly
zones, the US began courting a rapprochement with Iran.

As for Yasser Arafat and Israel, the US has almost always been far more
supportive of the Israeli side of things. During the Cold War, Israel
was of great use to the US, providing intelligence and other help in the
region. Afterward, the Palestinian problem began to be resigned to a
back burner as the geopolitical center of gravity moved northward to
Turkey, the Balkans, and the Caspian Sea. Only once that happened, did
US policy really turn to an attempt to establish a lasting peace between
the two peoples. The Palestinians who were dancing--and these were not
all Palestinians--were doing so because of decades of US intervention on
the behalf of the Israelis (as well as a history of being backed by, and
therefore sympathetic to, anti-US forces in Iran and other predominately
Islamic states).

Geopolitics is almost never determined by good intentions. Rather, it
is dominated by national self-interest. The US is not immune to this
principle, and is no exception to it. And, peoples do not tend to
forget and forgive past injuries, especially when they have not had a
lengthy peace in which to allow the wounds to heal.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a
sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By doing
such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet.
When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed
though you get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.
-Hagakure

Subject:	[novaroma] 10 Things You Can Do Now (Citizens in US)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:52:20 EDT

Salvete,

Here is a wonderful (and in my opinion sensible) list of things that our U.S.
Citizens can do "right now" to help the U.S. remain strong and stable in this
time of crisis:

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/exports/ct_email.asp?/news/628351.asp

Many US Citizens, including myself, have done a lot of posting about the
terrorist attacks here in Nova Roma, simply through a need to do *something*.
However, even though we're very used to expressing ourselves in this forum,
we will need to refocus on Nova Roma business soon in order to keep Nova Roma
itself strong and stable.

This does not mean that I am one whit less angry, (or determined) over the
crisis situation. I am not lulling into "acceptance" or "healing." However,
it is up to us to do what we can ... and keeping Nova Roma on track is an
important task as well. Our role as a manifestation of "historical
Civilization" may be all the more meaningful in the times to come.

I hope the macronational advice above will be helpful - and that we will see
more of Nova Roma's business going forward as well. We may have to learn
together how to keep Romanitas on track during a time of international
crisis, and the sooner we become good at it the better.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]