Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [NRHispania] DESIGNATIO PROVISIONALIS PRINCIPIS CURIAE
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:25:53 -0700 (PDT)

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez)
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez)swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Legatus Externis
Rebus Hispaniae to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Legatus Externis Rebus Hispaniae and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:28:14 -0700 (PDT)

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As an official of the province of Hispania of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus
Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of
Rome in my public dealings,and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public
and private life.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez)swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Legatus Externis
Rebus Hispaniae to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do
I
accept the position of Legatus Externis Rebus Hispaniae and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:38:39 -0400

I don't know that just because this essay is being sent all over the web that it devalues it at all. I myself have received about 8 copies - from widely differing sources. But all of them claim Tamim Ansary as the author. As I said in my original post, nothing claimed here differs drastically from information I've been reading about the Taliban in Afghanistan over the past 3-4 years. So indeed take it as meant - that we do NOT need to engage in battle with the People of Afghanistan, but rather with the hoodlums & criminals who have been holding them hostage.

Helena Galeria

Salve,

I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but this is the 14th time I have
received this exact same "letter" in the past three days. Every time it
shows up someone new is claiming a different source. I am not commenting on
the *content* and what I may think of it, just pointing out that this
"letter" should be seen for what it truly is.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Opening=20of=20NY=20stock=20exchange?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:16:33 +0200

Salvete,

Once again I'm watching CNN since 2 hours. I'm waiting for a historical
moment, when the opening bell will reopen the NY stock exchange. I see many
people with american flags and it touches my very heart to see your great
country united on the first real workday since the tragedy.

Greatings from Switzerland and may the LORD bless your country and all of
you,

valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho



________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!

Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoricium XXIX about the foundation of "Conclavis
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:33:26 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium XXIX about the foundation of "Conclavis Praeparatio
Cohors Propraetoris" (Preparation/Briefing Chamber of the Propraetorian
Staff)

I. As Propraetor Thules I have a need to sometimes contact my whole staff
at once. To achive this I have built a "Conclavis Praeparatio Cohors
Propraetoris" (Preparation/Briefing Chamber of the Propraetorian Staff) at
Yahoo for briefing, preparation, information and consultation of my whole
staff.

II. Hereby I proclaim the foundation of the "Conclavis Praeparatio Cohors
Propraetoris" (Preparation/Briefing Chamber of the Propraetorian Staff).

III. All members of the Cohors Propraetoris Thules of Legati, Scribae,
Lictores and Viatores rank will be made members of the Conclavus.

IV. The "Conclavis Praeparatio Cohors Propraetoris" will not have any power
to decide anything and will only be assambled at the direct order of the
Propraetor.

V. In the the "Conclavis Praeparatio Cohors Propraetoris" I will:
1. Brief my whole staff about Provincia Thule and Nova Roma matters
2. Prepare my whole staff for actions to be taken
3. Inform my whole staff about needed actions
4. Consult my whole staff about actions to be taken

The Conclavus is to be seen as the Briefing room of the Governor.

VI. The the "Conclavis Praeparatio Cohors Propraetoris" is in no way meant
to replace the "Consilium Provinciale Thules".

VII. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given September 17th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
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Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
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************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:08:52 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, shinjikun@s... wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I apologize for the conusion! My intent was not in being divisive,
> and I was not using the term liberal to refer to a specific
politcal
> group or party. Western Civilization is as a whole, a liberal and
> democratic society, which is a good thing. Liberal is defined in
the
> Cambridge English Dictonary as: "believing in or allowing more
> personal freedom and a development towards a fairer sharing of
wealth
> and power within society." I think this accurately describes the
> overall trends in every western nation today. I was attempting to
> point out the irony, that the same values that have driven western
> peoples towards embracing the ideals of peace, social justice, and
> religious freedom, make us in many ways emotionaly unprepared to
deal
> with this new sort of threat. Often evil can be difficult for the
> good to truly understand. It is not criticism, but simply a
statement
> of fact - and it's a hurdle, we as a people are going to have to
> overcome. *sigh* I wish I was a better writer!
>
> Vale,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
As I postulated in my reply to the earlier post, your use of the term
was perfectly understandable to me, but my initial assumption in the
context used was that we were using the dictionary definition, not
one of the many perversions of the term in use today. It's not your
writing that's at fault, it's inaccurate usage's prevalence.

Vale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

Subject:	[novaroma] Last Week
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:46:22 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma and Members of the Sodalitas Militarium;

My apologies for my silence the past few days but as you may have heard,
both my wife and I were involved in a very serious single car accident
on the Interstate a week ago last Sunday. With God's grace, we were
neither of us hurt in what was determined by the local hospital medical
staff as nothing less than miraculus, considering the total demolishmnt
of the vehicle. Two tires blew out simultaneously on the driver's side
of the car at interstate highway speeds in the midst of medium traffic.

My wife who was driving, saved both of our lives by retaining control of
the vehicle long enough to slow the van sufficiently to avoid a multiple
roll-over, or multiple vehicle collision and to allow the vehicle to
come to rest on a grassy verge off the highway which was the only
relatively small stretch of such along that area of highway for miles in
either direction.

The resulting efforts of revisiting the van to retrieve a variety of
personal effects

(we were returning from a Roman Reenactment at the time and the accident
occurred about 120 miles from home)

was significant and with the events of last week here in the U.S. and
the committment of another CW reenactment in Massachusetts this
immediate last weekend, we have been much taken up. Over this last
weekend a mistaken E-Mail sent to me by accident has filled my somewhat
limited mail box, and has effectively stopped further mail reciept. My
apologies for that consequence and inconvienience. This appears to be a
recurring problem.

I wish to thank all those NR Citizens who have so unselfishly and
thoughtfully shared thier sympathies with those of us here in the United
States for this horrific loss that we have sustained, and for your very
kind attention to our needs in this respect.

To all of those who have mentioned the unleashing of the dogs of war, I
would respond thusly:

It is a fairly easy thing to do to press the trigger of a gun, bomb
release, or missile command console, because the finger of he or she who
does so, relies upon the responsibility of another. I have done so in
the past, and I am fully sensitive of the resulting responsibiity. That
responsibility in the United States, and in most other civilized nations
of the world depends upon a firm determination of the rightness and
surity of that simple decision. A reponsibility that goes beyond the
simple action of release, but the actual determnation of the death of
another. To me, that responsibility is one of an awesome determination.
The effectiveness of the military ability of any given country is not
the question of the moment, but rather the surity and rightness of the
the action. That is what the U.S. and it's friends around the world are
trying at this point to determine. It is also why the military arm in
most civilised countries is governed by the decisions of the leaders of
the country, duly appointed and not self-declared, some of whom were
once military officers and who now seek to determine the justice of any
of our future actions. Further,the innocence of the citizens of any
given country, must certainly be considered strongly, just as I who am
now a private citizen would wish to be considered.

In my estimation, signs along the public roads urging "Bomb The
Bastards" and "Nuke The Ragheads", or comments about unleashing the dogs
of war neglect the question of reducing oneself to the level of those
whom we deplore, not to mention the extreme difficulty in "rounding up"
the dogs of war in the aftermath of such a release. In every war, the
world over, the consequences of such blatent and thoughtless comments
have been studied and regretted by billions of people for thousands of
years, Truly, it can be said that mankind does not often learn by it's
mistakes, possibly due to the shortness of the human lifeline, the
volitiity of it's temper, and it's disregard for the consequences of
it's more precipitous acts. .

In closing, I would like to comment on our personal relations with
others who may differ in race, creed or religion from ourselves. I have
friends the world over whose skins differ in color from mine, whose
religions differ from mine over the whole range of the available, and
whose creeds often differ from mine as well. They are not my friends
for the above stated attributes, but rather from a mutual agreement of
personal tastes and personal affection. I should be very disappointed
if any of my friends anywhere in the world were to turn against me for
the actions of some American-born renegade (there are such) carrying out
acts of terrorism against them. So, it is my feeling that my friends
are my friends regardless of race, creed or color, and those who are not
my friends -- who treat me with insult, innuendo, or contempt and / or
harm without just cause, may well be just as much a WASP (White
Anglo-Saxon Protestant) as I am . Therefore, I would appeal to all Nova
Romans to save your dissatisfaction, if it must be expended in word or
in deed, for those who have been deliberate with you, and not to those
who differ in more innocent ways.

My thanks again for those who have sent thier best wishes to our nation,
and to myself and to my wife. My most sincere thanks and appreciation.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] With sadness
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:05:01 EDT

Salvete Dexion,

Thank you for your poignant comments about this tragedy.

If I may - I observed this week in Southern California a great warming between the cultures. I went to a memorial service in which I witnessed a most amazing sight. I saw a Roman Catholic Priest read a Gospel from Matthew. I saw a Buddhist Priest pray. A Jewish Rabbi recited a passage from the Torah, and the Imam from a local Mosque sang a passage from the Koran.

Oh I wept! But mixed with the bitterness of loss were tears of gratitude that came freely when I saw all of us praying together: Christian, Jew, Buddhist, and Moslem. I wish you could have seen all the tears! I knew then - that goodness will ultimately prevail.

It was such a special moment! If greater respect and understanding for, and of, differences is what comes from this tragedy then the dead will not have died in vain. Goodness and respect begin with us all Dexion. Thank you and may your days be blessed. You are a good man.

---Secunda Cornelia Valeria

Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings To All!
From:	Valerian75@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:07:54 EDT

Salvete!

In light of last weeks tragedies, I have been quite busy with volunteer work.
I live on Andrews Air Force Base and my stepfather was involved in the
Pentagon incident. He made it out before the walls could completely come
down in his office. I send out my prayers to those who lost loved ones in
the WTC and Pentagon incidents. I have put on hold any activities I had
planned to start recently since peoples minds will be elsewhere over the next
few weeks. I will contact area Gens in order for me to get to know some of
you. Any citizens who live in the DC area and have questions, comments,
concerns, or suggestions please e-mail me. Until then, take care and may the
Gods & Goddesses be with you all.

Many Blessings,
Lucia Ambrosia Valeria
Valerian75@--------
Legatus for the DC area


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	bjsink@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:04:36 -0000

Lex Iunia de Iusiurando

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the
people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust, swear to
honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust, swear to uphold and defend the Religio
Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a
way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust , swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust , further swear to fulfill the obligations
and responsibilities of the office of Vicarius et Decemvir Coventus
Informatoria Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Vicarius et Decemvir Coventus
Informatoria Thules, and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

A. Cornelius Sallust

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:38:56 -0400

Rufus,

Thank you again, noble citizen.

As an aside, let me first say that there is hardly a post (I can't think of one at the moment, by the way) that you send to the List that I don't go away from edified - your posts are always direct, well thought-out, meaningful, and useful. I, then, will also adopt, from now on, the term "extremist" instead of "fundamentalist". Please feel free to call me on it any time you see the contrary.

The problem with "labels" is that they can cut you off at the knees before you can say "Hey Maximus buddy, watch that triden--", can't they? Thanks for the bonum verbum.

Matt


Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:24:49 -0400

Noble Municius,

Put away the scourge, citizen, please - as with most matters, the confusion is just a case of semantics. In fact, your point is supreme - and, beyond that, you had the profound ability to have put it in words which we all floundered with - you summed up for us the issue that, IMHO, is going to be the most defining moment for our nation since a century or more ago.

Thank you for that, Municius - I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Matthew



Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:26:14 -0500

Salvete Rufe Iuli et alii

> To clarify, my point is not that it doesn't explain hatred of the
> U.S., but that it doesn't explain murdering innocent civilians.


Hmm. We are talking about slightly different things, and using the same
terminology to do it. I think that understanding the causes of any
thing--even the murder of innocent civilians--does explain that thing.
However, I also agree entirely that one comes up short when one attempts
to comprehend that unfortunate capacity which allows men to believe that
such evils are ever justified.


> I just continue, naively, I'm sure, to wish that the U.S. would begin
> making a policy of supporting individuals or organizations by virtue
> of their ethical stance, not our selfish interests. The dictatorships
> we support and have supported are, to me, a severe embarassment at
> best.


I feel much the same way. However, the world is less than ideal, and
one works with the tools that are available in order to do that which is
possible. Is it truly wrong to support such regimes in the short term
in order to allow the spread of freedom and democratic principles in the
long run? Unfortunately, I am no sage, and therefore can not answer
that question definitively in every case (or even a majority of cases).
Therefore, I do my best to understand why things are the way they are
and make what positive difference I can given the combination of my less
than perfect knowledge of what is right and my relative powerlessness as
a single voter.


> Well said - and well appreciated. I did not have the impression you
> personally were condoning or minimizing anything. Your insights have
> been useful and thoughtful.


I am glad to have been of help.


> I believe it will be hard to act dispassionately, but I don't think
> that fact squarely rules out rational thought and response.


I believe I spent roughly twenty minutes seething in anger at the attack
before I reminded myself of M Aurelius' words, "When force of
circumstance upsets your equanimity, lose no time in recovering your
self-control, and do not remain out of tune longer than you can help."
It was then that I let go of my passions concerning the matter.
However, I admit that I am not particularly normal in this, and that I
would quite probably have much more difficulty letting go of my feelings
if I had lost someone in the tragedy. (Fortunately, it turned out that
the office of my friend who works at the Pentagon is in a different wing.)

> Our passion and anger may still be there, we just can't use them as our
> deciding factors. I don't think the emotion has to be eliminated or
> suppressed, just that it needs to be put in its proper place - in
> that respect, I suspect we are close together if not in complete
> concord.


I generally agree. As a Stoic, I expect that I am less willing to
suffer my emotions than you, but we do seem to be fairly close on the
subject.


> Hope that doesn't include Gin or Vodka bottles!


LOL Actually, it does. Fortunately, she has vigilant parents and short
arms.


> Thanks for a considerate and interesting reply, Fortunatus, it is
> appreciated.


You are quite welcome.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a
sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run along the road. By doing
such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet.
When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed
though you get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.
-Hagakure

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:44:14 -0400

Check this out. This just about sums up my opinions about the Taliban, etc. I am retired Navy, and worked with the SEALs as a Yeoman - I hope they send in SPECOPS & wipe out the terrorists. But.....

Helena Galeria

Dear Friends,
> > The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
> > Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I
> > know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen.
> > Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.
> > -Gary T.
> >
> >
> > Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:
> >
> > I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
> > Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this
> > would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this
> > atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
> > else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
> > whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
> >
> > And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I
> > am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've
> > never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who
> > will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
> >
> > I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
> > doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in
> > New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
> >
> > But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even
> > the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
> > psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
> > criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
> > think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
> > Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not
> > only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They
> > were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone
> > would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest
> > of international thugs holed up in their country.
> >
> > Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
> > answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
> > A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
> > disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
> > There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
> > widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
> > farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
> > reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
> >
> > We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
> > Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.
> > Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?
> > Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their
> > hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from
> > medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
> >
> > New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
> > least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the
> > Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away
> > and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans,
> > they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying
> over
> > Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the
> > criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making
> > common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've
> > been raping all this time
> >
> > So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
> > true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
> > there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do
> what
> > needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill
> > as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about
> > killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's
> > actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some
> > Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin
> > Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any
> > troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let
> > us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will
> > other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're
> > flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
> >
> > And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
> > wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
> > all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
> > might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into
> > Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a
> > holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to
> > lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably
> > wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the
> > war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but
> > ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
> >
> > Tamim Ansary



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	Valerian75@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:51:07 EDT

Okay... First of all, I understand your anger and your determination to
ferret these evil-doers out. I'm married to the military. My husband works
for the security forces squadron here on Andrews AFB. I am proud of his job
and I am proud of my country. For personal reasons though I do not like how
this government operates, but it's better than being overseas somewhere. The
people you are aiming at have their own feelings and beliefs on this
situation. Many of them have family members or friends that are in the
military. Do you think they are in such a hurry to lose them to this
stupidity? My husband will probably get sent off and if something happens to
him you think it's going to help me sleep better at night because someone
says "he died defending our country"? We have children and we know the
dangers of his job, doesn't mean I have to like it though. So what if people
think "why can't we just get along?". They all know that Bush will take
action and it won't be peaceful. It doesn't make anyone a victim of
themselves. It's called being human. Many of us weren't raised to be
violent and gung ho. My stepfather had the plane crash at the Pentagon a 100
yards from his office and he made it out while his office was tumbling down
around him. I have volunteered my time to help out with the aftermath.
Right now I am trying to protect my six year old from all this violence
because he doesn't understand at the moment. So lighten up a bit and save
your aggression for when you do get shipped out. I'm sure it will get you
far over there.

Many Blessings,
Lucia Ambrosia Valeria
Valerian75@--------
Legatus for DC area

>
>
> WARNING, this is a bit hostile. and to all you you who have supported us in
> NY and the US I appologize up front. Your support means the world to us.
> It is people like you that keep us doing what we do. Knowing that you are
> appreciated makes the job alot easier..
>
> NOW:
> Anyone who seeks a peaceful resolution before we route the terrorists out
> who did this to us I say this; I would like to offer you a one way first
> class ticket, on your airline of choice, to Afganistan. Iraq, Iran, Libya,
> or any other place where Americans are considered EVIL.
>
> I am sure your "lets all get along, barny the purple dinasour" attitude
> will
> get you far there...
>
> I do not know how many of you touting the "let this go, or violence is
> wrong" attitude have ever had to deal with these people, (and I do not mean
> muslim, I mean Religious Zelots, be they black white tan pink purple,
> whatever color, make model, etc.) But I have spent a good many years
> fighting these people and if I may I would like to let you in on a
> secret...
> They are all NUTS!!!! and the only way to deal with them is a failure drill
> from your MP-5 (that is two bullets to the chest and one to the head)..
> because if you dont do it to them they will do it to you...
>
> WAKE UP!!!!! There is no need for dialoge, cheerful banter, or retoric
> about this, these people wanted you deat too, you just happened not to be
> on
> one of the planes, or at WTC when it happened. Unless you are one of them
> you are the enemy. I am not a bible kinda guy, but there is a bit in there
> (I think it's matthew 8, 15 or something like that) that says blessed are
> the meek for they shall inherit the earth, well, guess what you MEEK are
> not
> going to have an earth to enherit.. Now there is one line I know well from
> that passage, blessed are the peacemakers, for they (we)shall be known as
> the sons of god...
>
> although I am not at liberty to discuss some stuff here, my unit has
> already
> gotten the nod, to spin up and prep for a trip somewhere... and we don't
> do
> peace keeping missions. we hook and fry terrorists, and other bad people...
>
> I cant help but think on the line from samual jackson in pulp fiction...
> the
> quote from the bible he says, and you know what... works for me!!
>
> There will be a time when you people realize that peace is gained only
> through superior firepower... like gun control is hitting your target..
>
> So, go hide in a hole, if you like... but do so knowing that there will
> always be men like Hadraininus and I to stand ready, walk the fence, and
> protect you from evil... and yourselves..
>
> Freedom isn't free...
>
> humbly,
>
> Casca
>
> Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
> Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
> Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
> Cornicularius Militarium Sodalitas
> Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma
>
> "Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
> est Lux."
> "we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
> the Light"
>
> www.geocities.com/legio_vi
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] With sadness
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:07:58 EDT

In a message dated 9/17/01 9:04:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, VMoeller@--------
writes:


> Salvete Dexion, Salvete is plural. Dexion should be dative case, except
> there is no dative case for Dexion since it is not latin.

Salve Secunda Cornelia Valeria, Accenscius.

I'm fine. Hopefully I'll back in Rome next week. I hate dealing with the
real world I am beginning to understand.
As you know we have to submit a budget by Kalanids Nov. I'm wondering if you
could start work on a tentative one for CAL?
Your Legatii should start on one for your old province

Vale
The Proconsul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	avikingthing@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:32:33 EDT

Noble Casca,

You wrote:

<< Freedom isn't free...>>

I agreed with this part of your post, noble Casca. We all have to work at
Freedom and earn Her and honor Her, not just club Her over the head and drag
her home by the hair and make her cook dinner. I also agreed with you that a
strong military is of the utmost importance, which, I believe, is what you
were trying to say in your post. In fact, a strong, well-prepared military
is just as important a piece of the whole puzzle as Justice and Temperance
are, and no less.

Your post indicated your perspective, Casca, so thank you for sharing it. We
should feel truly blessed, especially in this time, that the goddesses and
gods have allowed a forum to be created where we can share our thoughts and
ideas freely and without fear of censure.

>From your post, I'm sure you agree with me that the easy part of the war on
terrorism is to kill the physical enemy, whoever that may be, wherever they
may hide. But the larger, harder, longer part of the war will be to kill the
fear, won't it? I mean fear truly IS the enemy we must conquer in this
American war on terrorism. It is the mind-killer, it is the little death
(thank you, Paul A.). So, unfortunately, Casca, no matter how courageously
unselfish you and Hadrianinus are, you simply aren't able to fight our wars
for us. We must do that ourselves, each and everyone of us, everyday from
now on.

But, thank you for doing your duty to your country, Casca. And thanks to
each and every one of us for fighting so valiantly our own wars with
terrorism, both this past week and in years to come. As we fight daily
against the true enemy - fear - let us never forget that, surely, this duty
to our country is the most noble of all Roman virtues.

Matthew


Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] a few quick comments regarding the NYC Incident
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:47:07 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Rufio,
Personally, I want to thank you for your ongoing
service to the USA. My father was in the army and ,
of course, WWII. You have my complete support and
prayers in all your efforts.
I pray to all the powers that be to avenge this
atrocity.
Please take comfort that my prayers are with you every
moment and for your friends who have died serving the
US.
Vale, Maximina Octavia

--- Kryn Miner <kminer_rsg@--------> wrote:
> To the cives that think a firm, fair answer is not
> due, I offer this..
>
> I (as some of you know) have spent my entire adult
> life in the Army be it
> one form or another... 7 years spent in the active
> component. I consider
> myself a lucky man to have been honored to spend 5
> of those years in the
> special operations community.
>
> I have combated terrorists on both US and foreign
> soil. There is a code
> among warriors that whatever our loses, it is
> expected... and respected...
> These zelots are 110% commited to their beliefs, and
> no matter how errant
> they are, there is a degree of respect for that
> commitment...
>
> they believe they are at war with us (the west) and
> are willing to give
> THEIR lives, not their childrens, families, friends,
> etc. to that cause just
> as we who hunt "Tangos" do... "Shooters" believe
> the risks are worth the
> benefit.. no matter what side they fight for..
>
> Now that said... I can make a personal pledge and
> vow on behalf of my Dark
> clad brothers. WE WILL FIND AND DESTROY THIS
> CANCER!!! It is said in the
> specops world that it was not if but when this
> happened... people in our
> country do not realize how exposed to this horror we
> are...
>
> Now, is the time for justice, and it will come from
> the barrel of an MP5SD3,
> the GLID of a Navy seal team, and the belly of an
> Ohio class sub.. etc...
>
> I have lost 5 good friends to this horror, 2 police
> officers who from best
> guess were in the buildings getting people out..
> their deaths and the
> deaths of those HELPLESS VICTIMS will be avenged...
>
> as I am writting this I am covered in dust, my
> nostrils are filled with the
> scent of death.. I have seen the face of war many
> times but never this
> bad...
>
> So, where ever you live, when you pray to your god,
> gods or whatever.. be
> thankful you are not here... and remember freedom is
> never free... these
> people intombed here paid for your freedom (if you
> are an american). DO NOT
> belittle there passing by talking of forgiveness...
> you disgrace them and
> yourselves...
>
> I must go now.. there are bodies to recover...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Kryn Miner... Cpt, U.S. Army (Member of the CD
> Urban Search and Rescue
> team)
>
> AKA
>
> Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
> Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
> Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
> Cornicularius Militarium Sodalitas
> Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma
>
> "Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad
> potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
> est Lux."
> "we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we
> stand ready... She is
> the Light"
>
> www.geocities.com/legio_vi
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Accident
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:22:53 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,
I am very grateful that you and your wife are unharmed
and I hope to see you posting again soon.


Be Well,
Vale, Maximina Octavia


>
> ..., jmath669642reng@-------- --------e:
> > To My Nova Roma Friends;
> >
> > My apologies if I have seemed not to be active in
> my duties for the
> last
> > few days. Last Sunday night my wife and I were
> engaged in a serious
> > single car accident in excess of 100 miles from
> our home. While
> neither
> > my wife or I sustaind any severe injuries, the van
> in which we were
> > traveling has been totally wrecked.
> >
> > This combined with the terrible events of last
> Tuesday, have
> occupied me
> > and my family to an overwhelming extent since
> then.
> >
> > I now have a much better understanding of the
> hatred directed
> against
> > American's from outside this country. It is
> difficult for me to
> > understand based on our past history, and on my
> personal interaction
> > with my friends in Europe and Asia not to mention
> those in Africa
> and
> > South America, but I suppose that I must be
> somewhat nieve in my
> views.
> > The events of last Tuesday certainly reflect that
> unhappy view.
> >
> > At any event, you have my apologies for my
> absence, and at least
> one if
> > not two reasons for it. America will overcome
> this last terrible
> > assault and will come back stronger than she has
> ever been, if
> somewhat
> > less nieve, as I have been, about those who hate
> us.
> >
> > Respectfully;
> > Marcus Audens
> >
> > Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
> >
> >
> >
>
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: With sadness
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:22:45 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, VMoeller@a... wrote:
> Salvete Dexion,
>
> Thank you for your poignant comments about this tragedy.

Salve Soror Valeria Secunda:

Thank you for sharing this experience with us. I truly enjoyed
reading about this wonderful display of unity, comfort and
understanding. I am sure we all need to hear these 'positives' at a
time like this.

The fact that you found the moment so touching and special is just
another example of the richness of your character, Soror, and the
resultant genuine concern you have for people.

I am very proud to be your sister in Cornelia.

Buona Fortuna Perpetua (you certainly deserve it )

Pompeia Cornelia
>
> If I may - I observed this week in Southern California a great
warming between the cultures. I went to a memorial service in which I
witnessed a most amazing sight. I saw a Roman Catholic Priest read a
Gospel from Matthew. I saw a Buddhist Priest pray. A Jewish Rabbi
recited a passage from the Torah, and the Imam from a local Mosque
sang a passage from the Koran.
>
> Oh I wept! But mixed with the bitterness of loss were tears of
gratitude that came freely when I saw all of us praying together:
Christian, Jew, Buddhist, and Moslem. I wish you could have seen all
the tears! I knew then - that goodness will ultimately prevail.
>
> It was such a special moment! If greater respect and
understanding for, and of, differences is what comes from this tragedy
then the dead will not have died in vain. Goodness and respect begin
with us all Dexion. Thank you and may your days be blessed. You are a
good man.
>
> ---Secunda Cornelia Valeria

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:51:13 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Casca,

Once again, You have my complete support. I am with
you all the way no matter what you have to do.
My father was in the army and I am grateful for folks
like you who have the guts to do what is necessary.

I will surround you and your fellow service men and
women with my prayers every moment of every day and
pray that you will be kept safe.

Please stay in touch with us as much as you can so
we can know you are well.

Vale, Maximina Octavia





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Subject:	[novaroma] EDICTUM PROPRAETORICIUM DE DESIGNATIONE CONSILIO PROPRAETORIS HISPANIAE
From:	"salix" <salice@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:10:56 +0100

EDICTUM PROPRAETORICIUM DE DESIGNATIONE CONSILIO PROPRAETORIS HISPANIAE

I. This Edictum appoints some cives of Hispania to some of the
positions specified on the Edictum Propraetoricium de Consilio
Propraetoris Hispaniae.

II. The appointments are as follow:

A. Gnaeus Salix Astur is appointed Legatus Externis Rebus.
B. Lucius Minicius Laietanus is appointed Legatus Internis Rebus.
C. Claudius Salix Davianus is appointed Scriba ad Latinitatem.
D. Gnaeus Salix Galaicus is appointed Aedilis Arenae.
E. Marcus Salix Saverius is appointed Procurator Retis.

III. Every official appointed by this edictum must swear the official
Oath of Office in the ten days following the issuing of this edictum.

IV. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given a.d. xiv kal.oct. 2754 a.u.c. in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus.

Approved by the Curia Hispanica a.d. XV Kal. Octobris.

Marcus Salix Vigilius, Propraetor Hispaniae.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Subject:	[novaroma] EDICTVM PROPRAETORICVM DE CONSILIO PROPRAETORIS HISPANIAE
From:	"salix" <salice@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:10:54 +0100

EDICTVM PROPRAETORICVM DE CONSILIO PROPRAETORIS HISPANIAE

Ex Officio Propraetoris Hispaniae

I. This edictum specifies the functions of the Consilium Propraetoris,
which was defined in the Edictum Propraetoricium De Regula Provinciae
Hispaniae (par. II.B.). It can be admended in the future by the edicta
of the propraetor of Hispania, or by any lex or edictum of superior
rank, as ruled by the Constitutio Novae Romae.

II. The members of the Consilium will be divided into two tiers:

a. First Rank Officials: these have to follow the guidelines of the
Propraetor Provincialis. They respond to the Propraetor for their
actions.

b. Second Rank Officials: these have to follow the guidelines of
both the Propraetor and the First Rank Officials. They respond to the
Propraetor and to the First Rank Official assigned to them for their
actions

III. The First Rank Officials and their functions will be:

A. Legatus Externis Rebus: this official covers external affairs,
considering external affairs those that imply negotiations with cives
Novae Romae from other Provinciae and peregrini (foreigners). Among his
duties they are included the creation and maintenance of a provincial
web site, as well as constant and updated information about the affairs
of Nova Roma in general for the benefit of the rest of the Consilium
and the citizens of the province. Further recruitment campaigns will
also be designed and directed by this Legatus.

B. Legatus Internis Rebus: this official covers internal affairs,
including establishing contact with all the cives of Hispania, in order
to increase the number of active citizens within the Provincia. He must
also keep an elaborate and updated provincial census, for the benefit
of the rest of the Consilium and the citizens of the province. He will
also handle the day-to-day operations of the provincial mailing list.
It is also one of his duties to organize provincial meetings and
events.

C. Legatus Militarium: the duties of this Legatus will include the
creation and handling of a military recreation group at a provincial
level, as well as the organization of provincial events of military
significance.

D. Aedilis Arenae: this official will create and handle provincial
Roman games for the entertainment of the cives Hispaniae.

IV. The Second Rank Officials and their functions will be:

A. Praeco Actae: this official will keep the Acta Diurna (provincial
bulletin) updated.

B. Scriba ad Latinitate: this official will provide the Latin
translations required by the other officials.

C. Procurator Retis: this official will help the Legatus Externis Rebus
with the construction and handling of the provincial web site.

V. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given a.d. xiv kal.oct. 2754 a.u.c. in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus.

Approved by the Curia Hispanica a.d. XV Kal. Octobris.

Marcus Salix Vigilius, Propraetor Hispaniae.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] After Action Report--Legion XXIV--Memorytown--Mt. Pocono, PA--Part
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT)

Legion XXIV Commander;
Praefectus Gallio;

Sir;

I beg your leave to make a somewhat belated report of the activities
which occurred at the Memorytown Event, under the sponsrship and
auspices of the XXIVth Legion and your command:

I was pleased to arrive on the designated grounds at Memorytown at
appoximately 2:00 P.M. on Friday, and immediately set up the Gladitorial
School Headquarters Fly. I was pleased to greet Prafectus Gallio of
Legion XXIV on his arrival at about 5:00 P.M. and together we set up the
XXIVth Legion's Marching Camp Perimeter with palisade stakes. We then
cited the weapons and armor displays, and laid out the camp for the
Gladiator School and the Pilum Training ground.

The members of the VIth Legion (Centurian Lupus Britannicus and
Praefectus Casca Longinus) arrived later that evening, and set up thier
tent in the designated area. Palus Primus Maximus Gladius, arrived
early on Saturday morning and set up the Great Gladitorial Gate, and
entrance to the camp, together with his extensive and most impressive
display of gladitorial weapons, armor, and helmets. He also set up his
small tent and two practice "butts" for any spectators wishing to
undertake Gladitorial Training under the "Lead Gladiator." Shortly
thereafter we greeted Legionary Titus Italicus of the VIth Legion, who
arrived on the scene.

Memorytown is a small resort off the main highway (PA Route 611) one or
two miles, several miles out of Mt. Pocono, PA. There are cabins to
rent, a Tavern-Restaurant, Gift Shop and a small pond for boating. The
event was not well advertised, so we enjoyed a relatively quiet weekend,
but of the 100 to 150 visitors who came our way, we retained a
significant number for our Gladitorial Presentations and demonstrations
of the Roman way to fight. Most stayed or came back for the gladitorial
events on Saturday and Sunday. The XXIVth and VIth Legion soldiers were
very active in explaining Roman Army Tactics to the visitors as well as
demonstrating weapons, armor and accoutrements in a most active and
dynamic way.

Saturday's Events included Pilum throwing, Model Bridge Building, and an
afternoon show with two gladitorial engagements. The Model Bridge
Building effort was a joint undertaking of Senator Audens and Praefectus
Casca, with pointers from the Field Engineer, Praefectus Gallio.

The first fight of the day was announced and previewed by the Ludus
Lanista and Senator Marcus Audens. The Aedile of the Games was selected
from the crowd, instructed on his duties and the crowd was strongly
urged to participate as Roman Citizens. The first bout was to be Maximus
Gladius against Lupus Britannicus "The Wolf of Britannia." The fight
was brief but fierce, with each Gladiator attacking the other with
shield and sword. Several clashes occurred, each more exciting than the
last, and finally Maximus seeing a brief opening overcame his opponent,
brought him to the ground, and appealed to the Games Aedile for a
decision. The crowd cried out "Thumbs Up" and the Aedile agreed,
whereupon Maximus dispatched the Wolf to the Gates of Death.

The Retarius Cascus followed in the next bout fighting Maximus who this
time appeared as a "Fish-Man." Retarius Casca's skillful handling of
the net, together with his constant probing with the Trident almost
netted him a victory over the champion, but a slip of the hand gave the
advantage and the net to Maximus, and Casca too passed under the
judgements of the crowd, who again sentenced Maximus' opponent to death.
However, Maximus recognizing the bravery and skill of the Retarius Casca
refused the decision and demanded his opponent's life. This was granted
with the crowd's full approval, if not to the satisfaction of the Aedile
of the Games.

Senator Audens paid the victorius Maximus in gold before the crowd,
praised his victory and the crowd cheered both the victor and the games.
For the most part, it seemed that the center of activity of this event
was the XXIVth Legion encampment. We were the only gop who provided
planned entertainmnt to whch spectators were willing to come back for at
the appointed time.

The afternoon and evening were spent in discussions with our Viking
friends, and warming the insides with good wine, as we met and became
closer to the Vikings who were on the scene. We found out that at least
one of the Vikings was a Nova Roman who did not know about our presence
there and happened to come with the Viings for something to do. His
interest may be such that he will join either the school or one of the
legions or hopefully both.

(End of Part I of the Memorytown Saga)

Respectfully;

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: With sadness
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:40:50 EDT

Salve Pompeia (PO),

Thank you for your note Po. May you always be well and blessed with your wonderful and magnanimous character.
: )
---Secunda Cornelia Valeria

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:07:09 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@l...>
wrote:
> Rufus,
>
> Thank you again, noble citizen.
>
> As an aside, let me first say that there is hardly a post (I can't
think of one at the moment, by the way) that you send to the List
that I don't go away from edified - your posts are always direct,
well thought-out, meaningful, and useful. I, then, will also adopt,
from now on, the term "extremist" instead of "fundamentalist".
Please feel free to call me on it any time you see the contrary.
>
> The problem with "labels" is that they can cut you off at the knees
before you can say "Hey Maximus buddy, watch that triden--", can't
they? Thanks for the bonum verbum.
>
> Matt
>
>
> Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
> Durham, NC

I am both flattered and humbled by your praise, and thank you very
much.

And yes, 'labelling' does lead to confusion, not understanding. Even
sincere disagreements can be useful, but are ill served if they're
not clear.

Thank you again, I appreciate the compliments.

Vale!

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: OT A world called to action....
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:13:09 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Fortunatus <labienus@t...> wrote:
> Salvete Rufe Iuli et alii
>
> > To clarify, my point is not that it doesn't explain hatred of the
> > U.S., but that it doesn't explain murdering innocent civilians.
>
>
> Hmm. We are talking about slightly different things, and using the
same
> terminology to do it. I think that understanding the causes of any
> thing--even the murder of innocent civilians--does explain that
thing.
> However, I also agree entirely that one comes up short when one
attempts
> to comprehend that unfortunate capacity which allows men to believe
that
> such evils are ever justified.

I think we're at least close to being on the same page, then. I do
agree with what I believe to be your core point - it is incumbent
upon us to understand where the hatred comes from. It didn't just
come into being on its own.

>
>
> > I just continue, naively, I'm sure, to wish that the U.S. would
begin
> > making a policy of supporting individuals or organizations by
virtue
> > of their ethical stance, not our selfish interests. The
dictatorships
> > we support and have supported are, to me, a severe embarassment
at
> > best.
>
>
> I feel much the same way. However, the world is less than ideal,
and
> one works with the tools that are available in order to do that
which is
> possible. Is it truly wrong to support such regimes in the short
term
> in order to allow the spread of freedom and democratic principles
in the
> long run? Unfortunately, I am no sage, and therefore can not
answer
> that question definitively in every case (or even a majority of
cases).
> Therefore, I do my best to understand why things are the way they
are
> and make what positive difference I can given the combination of my
less
> than perfect knowledge of what is right and my relative
powerlessness as
> a single voter.
>

You're quite right that it's not a clear-cut issue. Do we favor one
regime because it's better than another, although it's still
not 'good'? Do we choose the lesser of two evils as representing some
kind of progress? Hard to say definitively in any specific case,
pretty much impossible to have a hard-and-fast rule on, what policy
should be.

>
> > Well said - and well appreciated. I did not have the impression
you
> > personally were condoning or minimizing anything. Your insights
have
> > been useful and thoughtful.
>
>
> I am glad to have been of help.
>
>
> > I believe it will be hard to act dispassionately, but I don't
think
> > that fact squarely rules out rational thought and response.
>
>
> I believe I spent roughly twenty minutes seething in anger at the
attack
> before I reminded myself of M Aurelius' words, "When force of
> circumstance upsets your equanimity, lose no time in recovering
your
> self-control, and do not remain out of tune longer than you can
help."
> It was then that I let go of my passions concerning the matter.
> However, I admit that I am not particularly normal in this, and
that I
> would quite probably have much more difficulty letting go of my
feelings
> if I had lost someone in the tragedy. (Fortunately, it turned out
that
> the office of my friend who works at the Pentagon is in a different
wing.)
>
> > Our passion and anger may still be there, we just can't use them
as our
> > deciding factors. I don't think the emotion has to be eliminated
or
> > suppressed, just that it needs to be put in its proper place - in
> > that respect, I suspect we are close together if not in complete
> > concord.
>
>
> I generally agree. As a Stoic, I expect that I am less willing to
> suffer my emotions than you, but we do seem to be fairly close on
the
> subject.
>
>
> > Hope that doesn't include Gin or Vodka bottles!
>
>
> LOL Actually, it does. Fortunately, she has vigilant parents and
short
> arms.
>
>
> > Thanks for a considerate and interesting reply, Fortunatus, it is
> > appreciated.
>
>
> You are quite welcome.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus

Thanks again, as usual, for giving us all some food for thought to
chew over, Fortunatus. It's always welcomed.

Vale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus




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Subject:	[novaroma] a hot head... and a heavy heart...
From:	"Kryn Miner" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:43:43 -0400

I want to appologize for being so um, lets just say "inpassioned" about the
WTC topic..

I forget some times there are other virtues such as humility, and
temperance, wisdom, etc. that are just as important to romans and americans
for that matter....

Thank you to all of you who have written me about my loss there. your
condolances are greatly appreciated..

They say there are some 5 steps in the greaving process, something like
shock, anger, guilt, acceptance or something like that... well, I'm working
on the other 4. (it seems I have anger down pat!! Trait of being an
enlisted guy in the 75th Ranger Regt for a few years, before becoming an
officer and a gentlemen)

if I have offended anyone I do humbly appologize. as one cive wrote to me,
it's not enough to win the battle on the ground we need to win it in our
hearts and homes. no one should be afraid to live their lives..

So, to all of you who have lost or have love ones that will fall into harms
way, because of this horror, You are not alone.. I offer that as comfort if
it can be...

sincerely,

Casca





Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
Cornicularius Militarium Sodalitas
Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

www.geocities.com/legio_vi



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: a hot head... and a heavy heart...
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:56:00 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Kr--------iner" <kminer_rsg@h...> wrote:
>
> I want to appologize for being so um, lets just say "inpassioned"
about the
> WTC topic..
>
> I forget some times there are other virtues such as humility, and
> temperance, wisdom, etc. that are just as important to romans and
americans
> for that matter....
>
> Thank you to all of you who have written me about my loss there.
your
> condolances are greatly appreciated..
>
> They say there are some 5 steps in the greaving process, something
like
> shock, anger, guilt, acceptance or something like that... well, I'm
working
> on the other 4. (it seems I have anger down pat!! Trait of being
an
> enlisted guy in the 75th Ranger Regt for a few years, before
becoming an
> officer and a gentlemen)
>
> if I have offended anyone I do humbly appologize. as one cive
wrote to me,
> it's not enough to win the battle on the ground we need to win it
in our
> hearts and homes. no one should be afraid to live their lives..
>
> So, to all of you who have lost or have love ones that will fall
into harms
> way, because of this horror, You are not alone.. I offer that as
comfort if
> it can be...
>
> sincerely,
>
> Casca
>
>
>
>
>
> Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
> Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
> Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
> Cornicularius Militarium Sodalitas
> Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma
>
> "Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam
eius. Roma
> est Lux."
> "we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready...
She is
> the Light"
>
> www.geocities.com/legio_vi
>

I believe most of us understand where you're coming from, Rufio, even
when we're not in 100% concord. I firmly agree that our resolve will
be tested, and that forgiveness or negotiation are not options,
whether we wish it or not. I wish the best for you in times that will
be more trying for you than for most of us. May your passion serve to
give you strength!

Vale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office (Revised)
From:	"Bjarne Sinkjaer" <bjsink@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:21:01 -0000

Lex Iunia de Iusiurando

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust (Bjarne Sinkjaer) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust (Bjarne
Sinkjaer), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust (Bjarne Sinkjaer), swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust (Bjarne Sinkjaer), swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Aulus Cornelius Sallust (Bjarne Sinkjaer), further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Vicarius et Decemvir Coventus Informatoria Thules to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Vicarius et Decemvir Coventus
Informatoria Thules, and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

A. Cornelius Sallust

Subject:	[novaroma] Stupid? Question.
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:04:54 -0300

Hypothetical situation:

A suicidal terrorist blews itself and a hundred in of cubans in an
attempt to
kill Fidel Castro.

Without solid evidence, Cuba asks the USA for the extradition of the
most
eminent anti-castrist emigry, and assorts this demand with an ultimatum
to the
USA, considering this as a declaration of War.

What would be your reactions?

Could the answer to this mitigate your demands for killing afghans ?

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: a hot head... and a heavy heart...
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:02:28 -0400

Greetings to Casca and Iulius,

May I attach my support to what the noble Rufus has said in words better than I could.
You have our unadulterated support, Casca, to do what your duty is. Just come back home a warrior, proud and victorious.

Noble citizens, lend me your aid to say:

Hail, Casca, protector of the free.


Salvete,
Matthew



Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Stupid? Question.
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:14:04 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, loos@q... wrote:
> Hypothetical situation:
>
> A suicidal terrorist blews itself and a hundred in of cubans in an
> attempt to
> kill Fidel Castro.
>
> Without solid evidence, Cuba asks the USA for the extradition of the
> most
> eminent anti-castrist emigry, and assorts this demand with an
ultimatum
> to the
> USA, considering this as a declaration of War.
>
> What would be your reactions?
>
> Could the answer to this mitigate your demands for killing afghans ?
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Salve Mani Villi,

My friend...we are developing solid proof, it wasn't hundreds killed
it was thousands (although hundreds is bad enough), and this isn't
the first time for bin Laden. He has been linked, with credible
evidence, to the bombings of the American embassies and the bombing
of the destroyer Cole - among others.

We HAVE already declared war against these terorists and the
countries that habror and succor them. I don't think you seriously
believe we should not retailate with all the force we can muster. If
you do, perhaps you would feel differently if the targets had instead
been Sao Paulo and Rio?

With all respect.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:15:43 +0200

Salve, quirites.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From),
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and
to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act
in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Decemvir Conventus
Informatoria Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Decemvir Conventus Informatoria Thules and all
the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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Subject:	[novaroma] Anger
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:30:05 -0400 (EDT)

Casca longinus Tiberius;

My friend, your anger will sustain you until the other four are worked
out, as they will do in time -- they always do -- I know. I am greatly
saddened, because you are saddened, but just as I knew when I selected
you to be on my staff, and as I knew to keep you as my Cornicularius
(Adjutant) even though you were stretched thin, all things will wring
out, and when they do, it will come out right. He wh has your respect,
your friendship and your allegiance will have something truly
worthwhile.
Yes, you may well be a hot-head, but in my experience such is the
attribute that inspires men, and in your branch of the service, just as
it was in mine, the inspiration of men is one of the most important
attributes of a good officer because the men of his command must go in
harm's way, and it is often only the inspirtion of the leadership that
will allow them to do so with a full confidence in thier capabilities.

I have listened to your good advice, enjoyed your excellent experience,
and worked closely with you in different venues, at different times
under different conditions. I have listened carefully to your words,
when you spoke truly of your views, and I find myself thankful that I
have such on my staff who are not only clever, just slightly devious
(grin) but also sincere, determined, and dedicated. I would wish for
your commander that he should be so fortunate as to have many such
"hot-heads" under his command, and when and if you are called, my
prayers and thoughts will go with you, having some small idea of what it
truly means to "go in harm's way." My only regret, is that I can no
longer accompany you, in whatever endeavors you will face. You will do
just fine, my friend,-----you will do just fine!!!!!!!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	[novaroma] WTC Casualty List of Non-American Citizens as of 17 Sep 01
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:07:17 -0000

Salvete,

This is the official Federal Emergency Managment Agency casualty list
of non-US citizens killed or missing in the WTC attack as of 17 Sep
01. It is safe to assume the 99% of those listed missing are in fact
dead, and that these numbers will rise before the recovery is
finished. The total is 2238 non-US citizens dead or missing, which is
aproximately 1/2 the total casualties. The list was obtained from
Retuers News Agency. It truly was the World Trade Center and I think
this list makes it very clear, that this is not the United States
fight alone...

Australia Dead: 9 Missing: 69
Bangladesh Dead: 0 Missing: 50
Brazil: Dead: 0 Missing: 30
UK Dead: 0 Missing: 300
Canada Dead: 0 Missing: 40-75
China Dead: 2 Missing: 51
Columbia: Dead: 0 Missing: 199
Ecuador: Dead: 0 Missing: 34
Egypt: Dead: 1 Missing: 3
El Salvador Dead: 1 Missing: 72
Finland Dead: 0 Missing: 50
Germany: Dead: 4 Missing: 100
Honduras: Dead: 1 Missing: 0
Indonesia Dead: 1 Missing: 12-15
Ireland Dead: 3 Missing: 100
Italy: Dead: 5 Missing: 0
Japan: Dead: 2 Missing: 22
Lebanon: Dead: 0 Missing: 3
Mexico: Dead: 16 Missing: 150
Philippines: Dead: 7 Missing: 428
Russia: Dead: 7 Missing: 100
South Africa: Dead: 1 Missing: 24
South Korea: Dead: 2 Missing: 16
Switzerland: Dead: 8 Missing: 280
Thailand: Dead: 0 Missing: 3

The link to the Reuters list is : http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?
g=events/ts/091101nydccrash&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=12&a=

I would like to offer my condolences to the cives of all the nations
lisited here.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia









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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:32:47 -0400

Salve,

I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but this is the 14th time I have
received this exact same "letter" in the past three days. Every time it
shows up someone new is claiming a different source. I am not commenting on
the *content* and what I may think of it, just pointing out that this
"letter" should be seen for what it truly is.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teleri ferch Nyfain [mailto:rckovak@--------]
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 10:44 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be
> victims....
>
>
> Check this out. This just about sums up my opinions about the
> Taliban, etc. I am retired Navy, and worked with the SEALs as a
> Yeoman - I hope they send in SPECOPS & wipe out the terrorists. But.....
>
> Helena Galeria
>
> Dear Friends,
> > > The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
> > > Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most
> brilliant people I
> > > know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen.
> > > Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.
> > > -Gary T.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:
> > >
> > > I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
> > > Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this
> > > would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to
> do with this
> > > atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
> > > else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
> > > whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
> > >
> > > And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I
> > > am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've
> > > never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell
> anyone who
> > > will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
> > >
> > > I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
> > > doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the
> atrocity in
> > > New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
> > >
> > > But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even
> > > the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
> > > psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
> > > criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
> > > think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
> > > Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not
> > > only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They
> > > were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult
> if someone
> > > would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest
> > > of international thugs holed up in their country.
> > >
> > > Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
> > > answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
> > > A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
> > > disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
> > > There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
> > > widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land
> mines, the
> > > farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
> > > reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
> > >
> > > We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
> > > Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of
> it already.
> > > Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
> their houses?
> > > Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their
> > > hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from
> > > medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
> > >
> > > New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
> > > least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the
> > > Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd
> slip away
> > > and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans,
> > > they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying
> > over
> > > Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the
> > > criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only
> be making
> > > common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've
> > > been raping all this time
> > >
> > > So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
> > > true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
> > > there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do
> > what
> > > needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the
> belly to kill
> > > as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
> qualms about
> > > killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's
> > > actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some
> > > Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin
> > > Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any
> > > troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan.
> Would they let
> > > us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will
> > > other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're
> > > flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
> > >
> > > And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
> > > wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
> > > all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
> > > might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the
> world into
> > > Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a
> > > holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to
> > > lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
> He's probably
> > > wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would
> mean, but the
> > > war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but
> > > ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
> > >
> > > Tamim Ansary
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] to the people that would let themselves be victims....
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:38:34 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,

> I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but this is the 14th time I have
> received this exact same "letter" in the past three days. Every time it
> shows up someone new is claiming a different source. I am not commenting on
> the *content* and what I may think of it, just pointing out that this
> "letter" should be seen for what it truly is.

According to posters on alt.folklore.urban, Ansary is indeed the author:

] He was interviewed on Australian public radio yesterday morning. He
] said he wrote the email and sent it to about twenty friends who he
] regularly sends various writings to. Most of these people forwarded
] it to other people, and next thing he knew, he's getting phone calls
] from Australia. Apparently he lives in San Francisco and has lived in
] the USA for the last 35 years.

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

TALIBAN DELENDA EST