Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Congratulations to Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:42:40 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, amice.

--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@--------> wrote:
> >I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Ħlvarez) further swear to fulfill the
> >obligations and responsibilities of the office of Legatus Externis
> >Rebus Hispaniae to the best of my abilities.
> >
> >On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
> Gods
> >and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
> >accept the position of Legatus Externis Rebus Hispaniae and all the
> >rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
> >thereto.
> >
> >
> >=====
> >Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> >Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> >Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> >Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
>
>
> Salve Amice!
>
> I have been away a few days and now I find that You have taken
> another
> heavy task on your shoulders. I am most pleased to see that You also
> will
> lend some of your gifts to your beloved homeprovincia of Hispania. On
> the
> behalf of Provinca Thule I congratulate You to your latest position
> of
> confidence. I also congratulate our sisterprovince Hispania to this
> appointment of one of its most able sons to become Legatus Externis
> Rebus
> Hispaniae. We in Thule are honored that our friend Honorable Gnaeus
> Salix
> Astur also takes of his valuable time to assist us!
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

Thank you very much for your kind words, amice. My original plan to
take every possible position within Nova Roma is working fine :-).

Now, seriously; this last one will not add any burden to my already
loaded shoulders. I was already unofficially carrying the weight
associated with this provincial position (and some would even say some
more! ;-) ). This appointment will simply give a slight patina of
"officiality" to my acts :-).


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Very important: manipulation by CNN
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:44:39 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnubus Civibus S.P.D.

With respect to the reports of celebrating Palestinians, I
would like to note that BBC World Service has stated that
limited film footage was shown repeatedly due to the
confiscation of other films showing the same sort of thing.
Threats, they say, were also made by agents of the
Palestinian Authority against the camera crew who took the
footage the BBC broadcast. (I do not know if it was the
same as CNN's.) Interviews were broadcast on BBC radio with
Palestinians engaged in the activity, who described their
delight. I have never had any reason to doubt the
journalistic integrity of the BBC. (I might wonder if CNN
used stock footage of celebrating Palestinians under those
conidtions - but if they did, they should have indicated
this on screen.)

Authorities of the Palestinian National Authority stated
that this feeling of celebration was rare and atypical, and
we know that Chairman Arafat gave blood. (Vedius' reports
of such celebrations in the U.S. itself cause me to share
his feelings of disgust.)

I am intensely glad as an American citizen that the United
States has always kept in mind that since the capture of
Jerusalem by the Emperor Titus, the Jews have at
Christian/European hands had a difficult time of it, and at
Nazi hands a worse, so that the world does owe them
something. And that Israel is the most full-fledged,
functioning, unequivocal, multi-party democracy in the
Middle East.

Yes, the Palestinians deserve a state too, and the U.S. has
been trying to help them get one. America bashing by Arabs
just because we won't let Israel be erased and because we
saved an independent Arabic country (Kuwait) from erasure
by the imperialism of Sadam Hussein - who would have gone
on to create more mischief for his Arab neighbours, had he
been given the chance - is deeply unjust to America and
contrary to the facts.

That having been said, I do agree with Limitanus that if we
demand the extradition of Osama Bin Laden from a country
with which we presumably do not have an extradition treaty,
we do at least owe them some concrete evidence related to
the crime he is wanted for. And if they were to insist on
his being tried by as Islamic court, well why not? I
daresay an Islamic court in, say, Saudi Arabia or Egypt
would be perfectly happy to convict him, since the mass
murder of innocent civilians is definitely against Islamic
principles.

Attacks against and already oppressed Afghani civilians
should be abhorrent to us, and indeed are, to the best of
my knowlege, contrary to NATO doctrine. And getting Bin
Laden out if the Taliban will not give him up would be very
difficult, unless we are willing to send in ground troups
and have quite a few more American (and perhaps allied)
casualties.

I submit that the price of getting him out might be more
than we would wish to pay. There are many cells and agents
allied with him in more accessible places, and if they were
dealt with thoroughly, he would be rendered impotent
against the rest of the world. And we would find quite a
lot of people to bring to trial - something that we would
have to do anyway if we really want to end terrorism.

The fact, therefore, that so much American prestige has
been placed on threatening the Taliban into giving up Bin
Laden - and that before the FBI investigation was more than
barely begun - might have been a mistake. We might have to
back down or go to war ineffectively, or pay a horrible
price in American lives and harm to the innocent civilians
of Afghanistan to possibly capture him - or possibly not.

Vengeance sometimes is as close as one can get to justice.
But a more important thing is to put an end to terrorism,
so that this will not happen again. And to do so without
compromising our traditional civil liberties or succumbing
to a general suspicion of foreigners or Arabs or Moslems.

There are reports of contacts between the terrorists and an
Iraqi envoy. Could the real initiative have come from
someone other than Bin Laden? Do we really know? Something
must be done about terrorism - this attack certainly proves
it - but we should be very, very careful that we really
know what we are doing, and get it right.

Dii nostri Americam ament!

Valete!



Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:40:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Subject: Re: Very important: manipulation by CNN

Salve Antoni Grylle,

[ quoting one Marcio A. V. Carvalho]
> Well, these images were recorded in 1991. These are the
images
of the
> palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait!.
> The use of these images by the CNN, which while not
corresponding to reality
> aim to inform about a serious problem, is simply
unacceptable.

Here, the author makes a wild accusation, while offering
absolutely
no
proof whatsover. This is grossly irresponsible. Is this
person
some
sort of journalist?

Chicago Sun-Times columnist Richard Roeper, who has some
experience
in debunking urban legends, has written in
http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep18.html

# Claim: CNN's footage of Palestinians rejoicing over
# the attacks on America is really 10-year-old footage
# of Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait.

# Reality: False. It's not surprising that a number of
# media conspiracy theories have sprouted in recent
# days--but as always, you have to question the motives
# of the so-called conspirators. Why would a global
# news organization risk its entire future in order to
# become a propaganda tool--and how could they get so
# many employees to go along with the plan?

# In a posting to Jim Romenesko's MediaNewssite, CNN
# chief news executive Eason Jordan said: ''The suggestion
# that CNN used 10-year-old images to illustrate
# Palestinians celebrating the terrorist strikes in
# the U.S. is baseless and ridiculous. The videotape
# was, in fact, shot Tuesday in East Jerusalem by a
# Reuters TV crew and included comments from a Palestinian
# praising Osama bin Laden, who was not a Gulf War
# player. The more interesting story--it has the added
# value of being true--is that Palestinian officials
# have threatened journalists for taking pictures of
# these Palestinian celebrations.''

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

TALIBAN DELENDA EST

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Stupid? Question.
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:39:03 -0300

radams36@-------- wrote:
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> > --- In novaroma@--------, loos@q... wrote:
> > > Hypothetical situation:
> > >
> > > A suicidal terrorist blews itself and a hundred in of cubans in an
> > > attempt to
> > > kill Fidel Castro.
> > >
> > > Without solid evidence, Cuba asks the USA for the extradition of
> the
> > > most
> > > eminent anti-castrist emigry, and assorts this demand with an
> ultimatum
> > > to the
> > > USA, considering this as a declaration of War.
> > >
> > > What would be your reactions?
> > >
> > > Could the answer to this mitigate your demands for killing
> afghans ?
> > >
> > > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
> > 1. If any US Citizen or resident alien were involved they would have
> > violated the US Neutrality acts. We outlawed "private" attempts at
> > waging war against other nations in the 19th Century.
> >
> > 2. Bin Ladden has allready issued two Fatwahs declairing war against
> > the United States. Any attempt by an American to do this would
> violate
> > the Neutrality acts.
> >
> > 3. Bin Ladden has publicly claimed credit for the attack on the USS
> > Cole. Under international law a ship is soverign territory of the
> > nation that owns it, so the deaths of the American Sailors occured
> on
> > US terrotory. Under our laws Bin Laden is a confessed Murderer. This
> > was also an act of war, violating the Nerenburg protocols on waging
> > aggressive war. Bin Laden is a confessed War Criminal.
> >
> > 4. We already have strong enough evidance to have indicted Bin Laden
> > for the attacks on our Embassies in Africa. Under International law
> > Embassies are the Soverign territory of the nation that owns them,
> so
> > we do have jurisdiction over this crime.
> >
> > We allready have enough on Bin Ladden to hang him WITHOUT the latest
> > outrage, but a trial before US courts would be very dangrous to the
> > Taliban as it would open the way for Taliban government offical to
> be
> > indicted for war crimes, so the Taliban has ignored ALL attempts to
> > bring this self confessed Murderer to trail before last weeks
> attacks.
> >
> > IF the Cuban Government presented the same level of evidance against
> > the hypothetical terrorist it is allmost certain that he would
> either
> > be tried on capital charges in the US, or extradicted to Cuba.
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Well put, Drusus! The original allegory was clearly both superficial
> and flawed, but I have decided not to respond to Limitanus's posts
> anymore due to his consistent explicit bigotry (disappointing in
> someone who is a University professor - I would expect better).
> Thanks for speaking eloquently and specifically for those of us (or
> at least, me) who choose not to acknowledge him. I agree
> wholeheartedly, I don't believe we would ever harbour anyone guilty
> of the crimes Bin Laden is admittedly guilty of.
>

The USA did not present any evidence of the implication of Bin Laden
in the last crimes. They ask for the world to believe them without
presenting evidences "because it could endanger the intelligence netwirk
that gathered the evidences".
The USA are harbouring many cuban emigrees which for instance financed
the Pig Bay operation, clearly a "Private War" action.

I am quite sure that if the USA present evidences to the afghan
government they will respect what they publicly declared: extradite Bin
Laden.
You can not hope they will do it just believing something the USA said.
The credibility of the US government is rather low (non-signature of the
Kyoto accord, non-respect of the various ACBM treaties etc.) and most
Afgans were already betrayed by the USA after the dissolution of the
USSR.

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Stupid? Question.
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:32:57 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> radams36@-------- wrote:
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, loos@q... wrote:
> > > > Hypothetical situation:
> > > >
> > > > A suicidal terrorist blews itself and a
> hundred in of cubans in an
> > > > attempt to
> > > > kill Fidel Castro.
> > > >
> > > > Without solid evidence, Cuba asks the USA for
> the extradition of
> > the
> > > > most
> > > > eminent anti-castrist emigry, and assorts this
> demand with an
> > ultimatum
> > > > to the
> > > > USA, considering this as a declaration of War.
> > > >
> > > > What would be your reactions?
> > > >
> > > > Could the answer to this mitigate your demands
> for killing
> > afghans ?
> > > >
> > > > Manius Villius Limitanus
> > >
> > > 1. If any US Citizen or resident alien were
> involved they would have
> > > violated the US Neutrality acts. We outlawed
> "private" attempts at
> > > waging war against other nations in the 19th
> Century.
> > >
> > > 2. Bin Ladden has allready issued two Fatwahs
> declairing war against
> > > the United States. Any attempt by an American to
> do this would
> > violate
> > > the Neutrality acts.
> > >
> > > 3. Bin Ladden has publicly claimed credit for
> the attack on the USS
> > > Cole. Under international law a ship is soverign
> territory of the
> > > nation that owns it, so the deaths of the
> American Sailors occured
> > on
> > > US terrotory. Under our laws Bin Laden is a
> confessed Murderer. This
> > > was also an act of war, violating the Nerenburg
> protocols on waging
> > > aggressive war. Bin Laden is a confessed War
> Criminal.
> > >
> > > 4. We already have strong enough evidance to
> have indicted Bin Laden
> > > for the attacks on our Embassies in Africa.
> Under International law
> > > Embassies are the Soverign territory of the
> nation that owns them,
> > so
> > > we do have jurisdiction over this crime.
> > >
> > > We allready have enough on Bin Ladden to hang
> him WITHOUT the latest
> > > outrage, but a trial before US courts would be
> very dangrous to the
> > > Taliban as it would open the way for Taliban
> government offical to
> > be
> > > indicted for war crimes, so the Taliban has
> ignored ALL attempts to
> > > bring this self confessed Murderer to trail
> before last weeks
> > attacks.
> > >
> > > IF the Cuban Government presented the same level
> of evidance against
> > > the hypothetical terrorist it is allmost certain
> that he would
> > either
> > > be tried on capital charges in the US, or
> extradicted to Cuba.
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Well put, Drusus! The original allegory was
> clearly both superficial
> > and flawed, but I have decided not to respond to
> Limitanus's posts
> > anymore due to his consistent explicit bigotry
> (disappointing in
> > someone who is a University professor - I would
> expect better).
> > Thanks for speaking eloquently and specifically
> for those of us (or
> > at least, me) who choose not to acknowledge him. I
> agree
> > wholeheartedly, I don't believe we would ever
> harbour anyone guilty
> > of the crimes Bin Laden is admittedly guilty of.
> >
>
> The USA did not present any evidence of the
> implication of Bin Laden
> in the last crimes. They ask for the world to
> believe them without
> presenting evidences "because it could endanger the
> intelligence netwirk
> that gathered the evidences".
> The USA are harbouring many cuban emigrees which for
> instance financed
> the Pig Bay operation, clearly a "Private War"
> action.

No that was poorly planned CIA operation, and a
bungled execection that saw JFK being anything but a
profile in courage when he abandoned the men he sent
on that hopless mission.

>
> I am quite sure that if the USA present evidences to
> the afghan
> government they will respect what they publicly
> declared: extradite Bin
> Laden.

DRUSUS:They have refused to extradite him, even after
his acknowledgement of the attack on the USS Cole.

> You can not hope they will do it just believing
> something the USA said.
> The credibility of the US government is rather low
> (non-signature of the
> Kyoto accord, non-respect of the various ACBM
> treaties etc.)

DRUSUS:Those pacts have major flaws, and the US did
the right thing. The Kyoto accords place heavy
penalities on the USA and NONE on some other nations.

The Idea that the US should forgo developing a method
of protecting it's citizens from missle attacks would
be ignoring it's obligation to protect it's citizens.

> and most
> Afgans were already betrayed by the USA after the
> dissolution of the
> USSR.

Well most Americans feel pretty damn betrayed after we
provided them with arms and funds to repel the Soviet
Invaders, and they repay us by aiding terrorists that
attack us.

L. Sicinius Drusus


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Very important: manipulation by CNN
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 05:01:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@l...>
wrote:
> Ave noble Citizens,
>
> I don't place my trust in any media organization - they exist to
make profit, not to spread truth - not my hometown paper (Germanicus,
did you get my email about the Herald-Sun?), not Murdoch's empire,
not even CNN.

Quite true, and always a good thing to keep in mind. Our local paper
is not only VERY conservatively biased, but its editors and owners
are politically active conservatives. It alternately amuses and
angers me to see the many letters to the editor that accuse them of
liberal bias (which is, believe me, stunningly absurd). Most media
has abdicated even any pretense of lack of bias, which is a real
shame.

> Now, good people, don't misunderstand, I am not saying that it was
not a hoax - what I am saying is that we can't know one way or the
other. Call me a media-agnostic-haha. A reference to Bin Laden
within the videotape is no proof (this was what the news exec from
CNN was reported to have said was in the piece to "prove" that the
footage was current).

I do agree with Chicago's Roeper that CNN would have been taking a
big risk, for very little in the way of reward, so the initial story
saying they had faked it did not seem credible to me. Still, a little
doubt and lack of credulity is always a good way to approach the news
media....

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Stupid? Question.
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 05:21:58 -0000

> > The USA did not present any evidence of the
> > implication of Bin Laden
> > in the last crimes. They ask for the world to
> > believe them without
> > presenting evidences "because it could endanger the
> > intelligence netwirk
> > that gathered the evidences".
> > The USA are harbouring many cuban emigrees which for
> > instance financed
> > the Pig Bay operation, clearly a "Private War"
> > action.
>
> No that was poorly planned CIA operation, and a
> bungled execection that saw JFK being anything but a
> profile in courage when he abandoned the men he sent
> on that hopless mission.
>
> >
> > I am quite sure that if the USA present evidences to
> > the afghan
> > government they will respect what they publicly
> > declared: extradite Bin
> > Laden.
>
> DRUSUS:They have refused to extradite him, even after
> his acknowledgement of the attack on the USS Cole.
>
> > You can not hope they will do it just believing
> > something the USA said.
> > The credibility of the US government is rather low
> > (non-signature of the
> > Kyoto accord, non-respect of the various ACBM
> > treaties etc.)
>
> DRUSUS:Those pacts have major flaws, and the US did
> the right thing. The Kyoto accords place heavy
> penalities on the USA and NONE on some other nations.
>
> The Idea that the US should forgo developing a method
> of protecting it's citizens from missile attacks would
> be ignoring it's obligation to protect it's citizens.
>
> > and most
> > Afgans were already betrayed by the USA after the
> > dissolution of the
> > USSR.
>
> Well most Americans feel pretty damn betrayed after we
> provided them with arms and funds to repel the Soviet
> Invaders, and they repay us by aiding terrorists that
> attack us.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>

Eloquent as always, Drusus, and very accurate, IMHO. We can always
count on you for intelligent and well-thought responses to these half-
formulated or questionable postulates. Well spoken, citizen!

Ave!

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1626
From:	Mikko =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sillanp=E4=E4?= <mikko.sillanpaa@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:11:40 +0300

Salvete,

At least the figure for Finland is wrong, there were only 3 Finnish
missing this Monday and yesterday it was confirmed that there were
luckily no Finnish people missing anymore and no-one (Finnish) was
killed in this horrible event.

Valete,

>Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:07:17 -0000
> From: "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
>Subject: WTC Casualty List of Non-American Citizens as of 17 Sep 01
>
>Salvete,
>
>This is the official Federal Emergency Managment Agency casualty list
>of non-US citizens killed or missing in the WTC attack as of 17 Sep
>01. It is safe to assume the 99% of those listed missing are in fact
>dead, and that these numbers will rise before the recovery is
>finished. The total is 2238 non-US citizens dead or missing, which is
>aproximately 1/2 the total casualties. The list was obtained from
>Retuers News Agency. It truly was the World Trade Center and I think
>this list makes it very clear, that this is not the United States
>fight alone...
>
>Australia Dead: 9 Missing: 69
>Bangladesh Dead: 0 Missing: 50
>Brazil: Dead: 0 Missing: 30
>UK Dead: 0 Missing: 300
>Canada Dead: 0 Missing: 40-75
>China Dead: 2 Missing: 51
>Columbia: Dead: 0 Missing: 199
>Ecuador: Dead: 0 Missing: 34
>Egypt: Dead: 1 Missing: 3
>El Salvador Dead: 1 Missing: 72
>Finland Dead: 0 Missing: 50
>Germany: Dead: 4 Missing: 100
>Honduras: Dead: 1 Missing: 0
>Indonesia Dead: 1 Missing: 12-15
>Ireland Dead: 3 Missing: 100
>Italy: Dead: 5 Missing: 0
>Japan: Dead: 2 Missing: 22
>Lebanon: Dead: 0 Missing: 3
>Mexico: Dead: 16 Missing: 150
>Philippines: Dead: 7 Missing: 428
>Russia: Dead: 7 Missing: 100
>South Africa: Dead: 1 Missing: 24
>South Korea: Dead: 2 Missing: 16
>Switzerland: Dead: 8 Missing: 280
>Thailand: Dead: 0 Missing: 3
>
>The link to the Reuters list is : http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?
>g=events/ts/091101nydccrash&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=12&a=
>
>I would like to offer my condolences to the cives of all the nations
>lisited here.
>
>Valete,
>
>C. Minucius Hadrianus
>Legatus of Massachusetts
>Nova Britannia Provincia


--
Caius Curius Saturninus

Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Novae Romae Academiae in Thule
Praeses et Triumvir Novae Romae Academiae in Thule

e-mail: c.curius@--------
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751



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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Digest Number 1626
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:35:09 -0400

Salvete,

That's good to hear! Since this was only a preliminary estimate, let's hope
that more figures continue to drop in the same way!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia
-----Original Message-----
From: Mikko Sillanpaa [mailto:mikko.sillanpaa@--------]
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 5:12 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1626


Salvete,

At least the figure for Finland is wrong, there were only 3 Finnish
missing this Monday and yesterday it was confirmed that there were
luckily no Finnish people missing anymore and no-one (Finnish) was
killed in this horrible event.

Valete,

>Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:07:17 -0000
> From: "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
>Subject: WTC Casualty List of Non-American Citizens as of 17 Sep 01
>
>Salvete,
>
>This is the official Federal Emergency Managment Agency casualty list
>of non-US citizens killed or missing in the WTC attack as of 17 Sep
>01. It is safe to assume the 99% of those listed missing are in fact
>dead, and that these numbers will rise before the recovery is
>finished. The total is 2238 non-US citizens dead or missing, which is
>aproximately 1/2 the total casualties. The list was obtained from
>Retuers News Agency. It truly was the World Trade Center and I think
>this list makes it very clear, that this is not the United States
>fight alone...
>
>Australia Dead: 9 Missing: 69
>Bangladesh Dead: 0 Missing: 50
>Brazil: Dead: 0 Missing: 30
>UK Dead: 0 Missing: 300
>Canada Dead: 0 Missing: 40-75
>China Dead: 2 Missing: 51
>Columbia: Dead: 0 Missing: 199
>Ecuador: Dead: 0 Missing: 34
>Egypt: Dead: 1 Missing: 3
>El Salvador Dead: 1 Missing: 72
>Finland Dead: 0 Missing: 50
>Germany: Dead: 4 Missing: 100
>Honduras: Dead: 1 Missing: 0
>Indonesia Dead: 1 Missing: 12-15
>Ireland Dead: 3 Missing: 100
>Italy: Dead: 5 Missing: 0
>Japan: Dead: 2 Missing: 22
>Lebanon: Dead: 0 Missing: 3
>Mexico: Dead: 16 Missing: 150
>Philippines: Dead: 7 Missing: 428
>Russia: Dead: 7 Missing: 100
>South Africa: Dead: 1 Missing: 24
>South Korea: Dead: 2 Missing: 16
>Switzerland: Dead: 8 Missing: 280
>Thailand: Dead: 0 Missing: 3
>
>The link to the Reuters list is : http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?
>g=events/ts/091101nydccrash&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=12&a=
>
>I would like to offer my condolences to the cives of all the nations
>lisited here.
>
>Valete,
>
>C. Minucius Hadrianus
>Legatus of Massachusetts
>Nova Britannia Provincia


--
Caius Curius Saturninus

Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Novae Romae Academiae in Thule
Praeses et Triumvir Novae Romae Academiae in Thule

e-mail: c.curius@--------
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of office
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:04:23 -0000

I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz), do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As an official of the province of Hispania of Nova Roma, I, Marcus
Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses
of Rome in my public dealings,and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my
public and private life.

I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz)swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never
to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz) swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Procurator
Retis Hispaniae to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Procurator Retis Hispaniae and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.


===== Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!


Marcus Salix Saverius

Post Scriptum: A former message of mine formulating this same oath of
office was erroneously worded, so please ignore it. Aliquando
dormitat homerus.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:50:10 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Salix,
Congratulations on your new position as Procurator
with thanks for your willingness to serve Nova Roma.
Good luck in your new office.
Vale, Maximina Octavia
--- Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza
<javier_gil_ruiz@--------> wrote:
> I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz), do hereby
> solemnly swear
> to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always
> in the best
> interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
>
> As an official of the province of Hispania of Nova
> Roma, I, Marcus
> Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz) swear to honor the
> Gods and Goddesses
> of Rome in my public dealings,and to pursue the
> Roman Virtues in my
> public and private life.
>
> I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz)swear to
> uphold and defend
> the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova
> Roma and swear never
> to act in a way that would threaten its status as
> the State Religion.
>
> I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz) swear to
> protect and defend
> the Constitution of Nova Roma.
>
> I, Marcus Salix Saverius(Javier Gil-Ruiz) further
> swear to fulfill
> the obligations and responsibilities of the office
> of Legatus
> Externis Rebus Hispaniae to the best of my
> abilities.
>
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
> presence of the
> Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their
> will and favor,
> do I accept the position of Procurator Retis
> Hispaniae and all the
> rights, privileges, obligations, and
> responsibilities attendant
> thereto.
>
>
>
>





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:55:20 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Octavius Pius,
With all that is happening, if I have not already
congratulated you, I do so now.
I wish you great success in your new position of
Decemvir Conventus Informatoria Thules.
As always, I am certain that you will do your best and
thank you for your willingness to serve our Gens and
Nova Roma.
Good luck and I am proud to call you brother.

Vale, Maximina Octavia

--- Kristoffer From <from@--------> wrote:
> Salve, quirites.
>
> I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), do hereby
> solemnly swear to
> uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
> the best interests
> of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Octavius Pius
> (Kristoffer From),
> swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
> public dealings, and
> to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
> life.
>
> I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to
> uphold and defend the
> Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
> and swear never to act
> in a way that would threaten its status as the State
> Religion.
>
> I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to
> protect and defend
> the Constitution of Nova Roma.
>
> I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), further
> swear to fulfill the
> obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> Decemvir Conventus
> Informatoria Thules to the best of my abilities.
>
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
> presence of the Gods
> and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will
> and favor, do I
> accept the position of Decemvir Conventus
> Informatoria Thules and all
> the rights, privileges, obligations, and
> responsibilities attendant
> thereto.
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Senior Legatus Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
> o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
> R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:16:37 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Galaicus,
Congratulations on your new office of Legatus Externis
Rebus Hispaniae.
Here is appreciation for your fulfilling these duties
for Nova Roma.
Good luck for the future.
Vale, Maximina Octavia

--- Piteas@-------- wrote:
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro), do
> hereby solemnly
> swear to
> uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
> the best interests
> of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix
> Galaicus (Alejandro
> Carneiro)
> swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
> public dealings,
> and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> private life.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro) swear
> to uphold and
> defend the
> Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
> and swear never to
> act in a way that would threaten its status as the
> State Religion.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro) swear
> to protect and
> defend the
> Constitution of Nova Roma.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro)
> further swear to
> fulfill the
> obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> Aedilis Arenae
> Hispanae to the best of my abilities.
>
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
> presence of the Gods
> and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will
> and favor, do I
> accept the position of Legatus Externis Rebus
> Hispaniae and all the
> rights, privileges, obligations, and
> responsibilities attendant
> thereto.
>
> Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
>
>





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Subject:	[novaroma] Ludi Romani, cancelled
From:	"M Arminius Maior" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:45:28 -0300

Avete, Quirites

To those cives who still remember the proposed Ludi Romani: due to the last week events, the Ludi are cancelled.
There are a possibility, however, that we, the aediles, could redo something to the Ludi Plebeii, in november.

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebis


Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S.
http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp

Subject:	[novaroma] A saddened American...
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:02:45 -0000

Salvete,

I have always made an effort to be an informed reader, and try to get
as my news from as many different sources as possible. I have been
following the European Press quite a bit, in the wake of the WTC
disaster, in attempt to get a feel for our allies' viewpoints, and
what I've found has left me deeply saddened and disturbed. It seems
the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list:
Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
of Europe viewpoint? Do you all really dislike us that much? Is there
that much resentment against the USA in Europe? I will be the first
to admit that the US has done a lot of dumb things in the past, and
frequently our policies have been nearsightedly self-interested, but
as whole haven't our hearts always been in the right place? Despite
our differences, I have thought of the USA as a friend of Europe. We
have always been willing to sacrifice both our lives and economic
resources in defense of Europe, through two World Wars and the Cold
War. What would have happened if we had remained neutral in WW2? What
if there had been no Berlin Airlift? No Marshal plan? No NATO? No
United Nations? What if the US had insisted the repayment of war debt
after WW2? Or demanded reparations after WW2? We are certainly not
perfect, far from it, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has ever
considered the alternatives. If the only superpower was the Soviet
Union or Communist China? Or if the USA was really as bad as some
people like to paint us to be? Can anyone imagine the horror of a
truly evil or imperialistic USA? It truly saddens me to think the
world would breath a collective sigh of relief if the USA was to
suddenly dry up and blow away. While I don't expect the World to
agree with us on every issue all the time, I think this is an
instance where it would be nice if it cut us a little slack.

With a heavy heart,

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Oath of Office (corrected)
From:	Piteas@--------
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:15:24 -0000

Oops, I´m the new Aedilis Arenae Hispanae, not the new legatus
externis rebus of that province.
Sorry

Galaicus


--- In novaroma@--------, Maximina Octavia <m--------q@--------> wrote:
> Ave Galaicus,
> Congratulations on your new office of Legatus Externis
> Rebus Hispaniae.
> Here is appreciation for your fulfilling these duties
> for Nova Roma.
> Good luck for the future.
> Vale, Maximina Octavia
>
> --- P--------s@-------- wrote:
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro), do
> > hereby solemnly
> > swear to
> > uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
> > the best interests
> > of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> >
> > As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix
> > Galaicus (Alejandro
> > Carneiro)
> > swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
> > public dealings,
> > and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> > private life.
> >
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro) swear
> > to uphold and
> > defend the
> > Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
> > and swear never to
> > act in a way that would threaten its status as the
> > State Religion.
> >
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro) swear
> > to protect and
> > defend the
> > Constitution of Nova Roma.
> >
> > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro)
> > further swear to
> > fulfill the
> > obligations and responsibilities of the office of
> > Aedilis Arenae
> > Hispanae to the best of my abilities.
> >
> > On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
> > presence of the Gods
> > and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will
> > and favor, do I
> > accept the position of Aedilis Arenae Hispanae and all the
> > rights, privileges, obligations, and
> > responsibilities attendant
> > thereto.
> >
> > Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
> >
> >




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Very important: manipulation by CNN
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:57:41 EDT

In a message dated 9/19/01 10:51:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Hilliam@-------- writes:

> et al

As a former seg. producer at Cable News Network, I have to say that if that
was ever done, that producer and editor would be out of a job. Immidatley.
We were not to manipulate images ever, we can only enhance them to make them
cleaner but that's all. The employees hand book makes that perfectly clear.

As for the hoax, before footage is deposited into the file vault, the bottom
left corner of each frame is marked "file footage" so the company cannot use
it for a current story, unless the viewer knows its from an old story and is
a file shot.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A saddened American...
From:	"Keith Seddon" <K.H.S@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:04:53 +0100

In response to C. Minucius Hadrianus who wrote:

> It seems
> the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
> disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
> at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
> would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list:
> Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
> of Europe viewpoint?

I am in England. I read the Guardian newspaper, and I watch the news on
BBC1, on BBC2 Newsnight, and on Channel 4.

These sentiments do not reflect what I have been reading and watching.

I wonder if what you have seen of the European treatment of this terrible
subject has been filtered to make the exaggerated point that some articles,
I suppose, will be taking the line you describe. There is by no means a
concensus.

It would appear to be an entirely uncivilised response to believe that
innocent people 'deserve' to be the victims of such horror, but at the same
time believe that the terrorists' crime was one against civilised values.

Live in honour,

Lucilius Gellius Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A saddened American...
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:26:05 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- Adrian Gunn <shinjikun@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I have always made an effort to be an informed reader, and try to get
>
> as my news from as many different sources as possible. I have been
> following the European Press quite a bit, in the wake of the WTC
> disaster, in attempt to get a feel for our allies' viewpoints, and
> what I've found has left me deeply saddened and disturbed. It seems
> the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
> disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
> at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
> would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list:
> Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
> of Europe viewpoint? Do you all really dislike us that much? Is there
> that much resentment against the USA in Europe?

To be fair, I have to admit that some people in Europe would agree with
the point of view you have stated above. However, rest assured that
that is neither the point of view of the wide majority of the
Europeans, who have publicly condemmned this terrorist attack with huge
demonstrations in the street; nor the feeling among the various levels
of government in Europe, who have also condemned the attack and have
stated their readiness to help in any possible way.

I live in a state that has been suffering the plague of terrorism for
over 30 years (since much before I was born), and I had never seen such
a general shock after a terrorist attack. The number of victims make
this act of terror comparable to no other in the view of most of my
compatriots.

Besides, the fact that many Europeans have lost their lifes in the
attack makes it even more terrible for us here.

> I will be the first
> to admit that the US has done a lot of dumb things in the past, and
> frequently our policies have been nearsightedly self-interested, but
> as whole haven't our hearts always been in the right place? Despite
> our differences, I have thought of the USA as a friend of Europe. We
> have always been willing to sacrifice both our lives and economic
> resources in defense of Europe, through two World Wars and the Cold
> War. What would have happened if we had remained neutral in WW2? What
> if there had been no Berlin Airlift? No Marshal plan? No NATO? No
> United Nations? What if the US had insisted the repayment of war debt
> after WW2? Or demanded reparations after WW2? We are certainly not
> perfect, far from it, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has ever
> considered the alternatives. If the only superpower was the Soviet
> Union or Communist China? Or if the USA was really as bad as some
> people like to paint us to be? Can anyone imagine the horror of a
> truly evil or imperialistic USA? It truly saddens me to think the
> world would breath a collective sigh of relief if the USA was to
> suddenly dry up and blow away. While I don't expect the World to
> agree with us on every issue all the time, I think this is an
> instance where it would be nice if it cut us a little slack.
>
> With a heavy heart,
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus

I hope this attack does not succeed in implanting a feeling of "us
against everyone" among American citizens. Not only it would not be
fair; it would be wrong.

I think that too many Europeans are expressing their pain every day
since the attack for you to consider yourself betrayed.


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/

Subject:	[novaroma] Allright... (was A saddened American...)
From:	"J. Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:51:35 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

> I have always made an effort to be an informed reader, and try to get
> as my news from as many different sources as possible. I have been
> following the European Press quite a bit, in the wake of the WTC
> disaster, in attempt to get a feel for our allies' viewpoints, and
> what I've found has left me deeply saddened and disturbed. It seems
> the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
> disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
> at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
> would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list:
> Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
> of Europe viewpoint? Do you all really dislike us that much? Is there
> that much resentment against the USA in Europe?

As Gnaeus Salix said, it is not. The UEFA soccer league matches were delayed
because of this (think of soccer being as important to us as baseball and
football put together). Many people volunteered to give blood. Days of
mourning were declared, and everyone felt shocked by the tragedy that struck
the US in its heart. Human suffering goes above and beyond national borders.
But that's where it ends. Innocent civilians being slaughtered is gruesome,
but it the oil and power games the US played in the middle east for the last
decades have had a comparable effect on many people there. Often, I find
myself in disagreement with US policies. But that doesn't mean that we don't
understand your suffering, or would ridicule it. They are two seperate
things.

> I will be the first
> to admit that the US has done a lot of dumb things in the past, and
> frequently our policies have been nearsightedly self-interested, but
> as whole haven't our hearts always been in the right place? Despite
> our differences, I have thought of the USA as a friend of Europe. We
> have always been willing to sacrifice both our lives and economic
> resources in defense of Europe, through two World Wars and the Cold
> War. What would have happened if we had remained neutral in WW2? What
> if there had been no Berlin Airlift? No Marshal plan? No NATO? No
> United Nations? What if the US had insisted the repayment of war debt
> after WW2? Or demanded reparations after WW2? We are certainly not
> perfect, far from it, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has ever
> considered the alternatives. If the only superpower was the Soviet
> Union or Communist China? Or if the USA was really as bad as some
> people like to paint us to be? Can anyone imagine the horror of a
> truly evil or imperialistic USA? It truly saddens me to think the
> world would breath a collective sigh of relief if the USA was to
> suddenly dry up and blow away. While I don't expect the World to
> agree with us on every issue all the time, I think this is an
> instance where it would be nice if it cut us a little slack.
>

Well, we come at the crux of Euro-American relations here. The US had
nothing to lose by starting up the Marshall plan, because western Europe
became an economical ally as well as a powerful military one, whereas the
USSR enslaved its neighbour states and eventually lost them. It's a matter
of intelligent policy-making. Also, might I remind you that the US only
stepped into WW2 after Pearl Harbour? The phrase "we saved you so you will
repay us" is rather childish. You cannot expect your best friends to agree
with you on everything, even if they saved your life. Gratitude and
difference in opinion are, again, two seperate things.

In closing, to Hadrianus and other Americans: yes, Europe feels your pain.
Yes, we think it is a terrible thing. Yes, we think the Taliban and bin
Laden should be dealt with effectively. But no, dissent is not a crime. If
you live in the "land of the free", you should respect that.

Valete bene,
Draco

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A saddened American...
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:11:53 -0000

Salvete Lucili Gelli Severe et omnes,

<snipped>
I am in England. I read the Guardian newspaper, and I watch the news
on BBC1, on BBC2 Newsnight, and on Channel 4.

These sentiments do not reflect what I have been reading and watching.

I wonder if what you have seen of the European treatment of this
terrible subject has been filtered to make the exaggerated point that
some articles,I suppose, will be taking the line you describe. There
is by no means a concensus.
<snipped>

Thank you for writing back so quickly! I was hoping that my
impressions were wrong, which is why I posed the question on my post.
I suppose under the circumstances, it is easy to become a bit
defensive, and I apologize if that was the tone of my post. I am glad
to find my fears (at the very least in the case of the UK) are
unfounded. Gratias!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:41:56 +0200

Maximina Octavia wrote:
> I wish you great success in your new position of
> Decemvir Conventus Informatoria Thules.
> As always, I am certain that you will do your best and
> thank you for your willingness to serve our Gens and
> Nova Roma.

Salve, Maximina Octavia.

Thank you for your trust in my abilities, sister. I will do my utmost to
earn the faith you show for my abilities and dedication.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A saddened American...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:57:42 +0200

Salvete Omnes,

I just wanted to react to Hadrianus post.
I wondered how you could get to imagine that the majority of European was
thinking in a way that Americans derserved the terrible events of the last
few days.
Besides, this is true that some media expressed a point of view that if
innocent Americans should not have been victims of the terrorist attacks,
the symbol of a certain over-americanism over the world somehow deserved
what happened. I deeply think this no anti-americanism at all, I simply
think this press try to expressed that from certain points of view, civilian
Iraqi for instance, the werstern countries are the devil. A way to express
that noone, nor European, nor American, nor whoever, is purely "white". But
this shall apply to States, to Policies, not to citizens.

Something I am sure of, is that nobody here in Europe thinks that american
people had ever deserved what happened.
In France for example, these horrible events recalled to everyone the
numerous terrorist attacks we had in Paris in 1995, when the metro blew up
twice with hundreds of casualties, and when several other attacks were
avoided at last time. We had experienced horror as well, and we understand
what you feel. We are with you, and we keep in mind that you were there
during WW2. Thanks to you, we're still French; I hope nobody has forgotten
this.

Vale Optime, you're in our prayers.
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae




----- Original Message -----
From: Adrian Gunn <shinjikun@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 7:11 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: A saddened American...


> Salvete Lucili Gelli Severe et omnes,
>
> <snipped>
> I am in England. I read the Guardian newspaper, and I watch the news
> on BBC1, on BBC2 Newsnight, and on Channel 4.
>
> These sentiments do not reflect what I have been reading and watching.
>
> I wonder if what you have seen of the European treatment of this
> terrible subject has been filtered to make the exaggerated point that
> some articles,I suppose, will be taking the line you describe. There
> is by no means a concensus.
> <snipped>
>
> Thank you for writing back so quickly! I was hoping that my
> impressions were wrong, which is why I posed the question on my post.
> I suppose under the circumstances, it is easy to become a bit
> defensive, and I apologize if that was the tone of my post. I am glad
> to find my fears (at the very least in the case of the UK) are
> unfounded. Gratias!
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Very important: manipulation by CNN
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:12:37 -0400

Noble Fabius,

Thank you for your post listing the instructions you received as the segment producer, and indications that might help one judge whether CNN news footage is used or not. This helps everyone make her or his own determination as to how much belief to have or not have with regards to CNN, the handbook, and you as a former segment producer.

Unfortunately, not everyone may be as ethical as you were in their portraying reality on a news show. I would like to believe that the news producers, etc., were, and are, and will be. But I lack that kind of faith. That's just me, the curmudgeon that I am, carrying around my lamp looking for Truth. So, although CNN is very high on the continuum for me regarding which news service's information to accept, still I must take all media information with a grain, no...a block of salt.

Gratias, noble citizen
Salve,

Matthew

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC



>>> QFabiusMaxmi@-------- Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:57:41 AM >>>
In a message dated 9/19/01 10:51:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Hilliam@-------- writes:

> et al

As a former seg. producer at Cable News Network, I have to say that if that
was ever done, that producer and editor would be out of a job. Immidatley.
We were not to manipulate images ever, we can only enhance them to make them
cleaner but that's all. The employees hand book makes that perfectly clear.

As for the hoax, before footage is deposited into the file vault, the bottom
left corner of each frame is marked "file footage" so the company cannot use
it for a current story, unless the viewer knows its from an old story and is
a file shot.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20A=20saddened=20American=2E=2E=2E?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:01:21 +0200

Salve C. Minucius Hadrianus,

I very much admire your currage in asking us non US-citizens for our straight
forward thoughts about the US.

>Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
>of Europe viewpoint?

>From the way I feel and the way the people I talk to feel, this is not a
really accurate reflection of our viewpoint. I might say, that many of us
sometimes think things like that, but not as a general thought about the
US but as one possibility to try and understand many of your reactions which
were also mirrored on this list. How are we Europeans supposed to understand
things like 'nuke the ragheads'???????

>Do you all really dislike us that much?

I strongly believe this is not about disliking you. Many of the political
things the US government does sometimes seem egoistic and arrogant to us.
But people who get to know the people better will see, that this is only
one of the things that come from your different way of viewing things.

>Is there that much resentment against the USA in Europe?

NO, not resentment, sometimes just a different way of thinking about things.

>I will be the first
>to admit that the US has done a lot of dumb things in the past, and
>frequently our policies have been nearsightedly self-interested, but
>as whole haven't our hearts always been in the right place?

As a whole you certainly have, but when we look at the things that have
happened, it is very easy to look at things and ask why the US is playing
the police in all the world and thereby forgetting its own homeland.

Now for a personal remark. I spent three wonderful years in an american
school and I still don't understand all the things that happen in your country,
so please don't be too harsh to those of us who have never encountered your
way of life.

Vale C. Minucius Hadrianus, Greetings from Switzerland, Tiberius Annaeus
Otho




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Subject:	[novaroma] European Reaction
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:20:29 -0400 (EDT)

Legate Hadrianus;

>From those good friends that I have in Europe, the condolances I have
recieved, and the support so generously offered, I think, are truly
indicative of thier outrage and horror at what has happened here in the
last few days.

There are those in Europe who certainly may well be irritated at some of
the stupid actions and observations of Americans who do not take the
time to understand the culture of the places that they visit or the
languages that are spoken there. When I lived in Spain, I was often
mistaken for a native of the country and spoken down to by American
Tourists. It angered me just as I am sure it angered my Spanish
friends, and I leave you to imagine the result when my anger at such
treatment finally allowed me to respond!! There are also those who may
have a passing gripe for equally personnal reasons, but for the most
part the Europeans of my aquaintaince have been very generous and
supportive both before and after this terrible and vicious attack.

The comments recently posted by our Canadian Friends are certanly
indicative of thier admiration and liking for Americans and reflects my
enjoyment at being a visitor in Canada as well. The English have always
bent over backward in thier hospitality efforts and have certainly let
me know recently of thier affection for me personnally as well as thier
negative feelings about these attacks. In spite of some accusations
against the French at being cold towards Americans I have never found it
so, and the Italians, Belgians, Netherlanders, Portuguese, and Greeks
have always bent over backwards to accomodate me and answer my
questions. The Turkish people are somewhat withdrawn, but even there,
when it was apparent that one respected the Turkish Culture, they were
as much fun to be around as anyone, and their humor and hospitality knew
few bounds once you were accepted. My fatherr was one of such
acceptance and he died in Turkey of a Brain Annurism. The outpouring of
affection and support that my Mother recieved was virtually staggering.
I could go on all day, about the various places that I have visited and
lived, but I cannot honestly say, that I have ever found the people
where I have been hostile to me, because of my nationality, color, creed
or religion, even in my vists to the middle East. It is obviously
different there now in some places, but I think that is due to many very
unusual and special factors, that we are currently grappling with.

However, I must say that those who were so good to me, usually had no
use whatsoever for Americans who broke thier rules, rediculed their
culture, acted in ways detrimental to thier beliefs and spurned thier
offerings as being too little too late. Frankly, I don't blame them a
darned bit for that way of dealing with that kind of stupidity!!

>From my experience, the Europeans with whom I have an aquaintance have
always expressed a quiet admiration and relief at the actions of the
U.S. in regard to assistance programs in the past. It is generally only
the young people (18 going on 35) who get thier history from a book, and
who do not understand the weary efforts of the rebuilding of Europe, and
what our help meant at the time of need, who seem to expect our
assistance as a matter of course. However, that is obviously just a few
who are politically motivated and who feel themselves to be shielded by
the distance that they are from the U.S. These are, in my estimation,
relatively few, and are those who are opinionated without the help of
wiser heads to keep them on track. Were we to meet face-to-face without
prior knowledge, I strongly suspect that thier basic politenes and
hospitality would be engaged, as I have previously described.

I am always cautious when condemning U.S. Policy in foriegn lands, since
few people know what information was available to our leaders at that
time, and what the best obvious calls were in thier and thier advisors
views. No one but those people have all the facts, and after all, these
people were not, are not fools, as those in later years, who have no
knowledge other than the words of others what these people were really
like at that time could ever know. I suppose in some cases it can be
said in the clear light of 20-20 hindsight that some things could have
been done better, but as others have said we did not choose to be the
guardian at the gate, our wealth flows not so much from our physical
resources as from our generosity, and from our helping hand, always
outstetched and from our interests in other peoples, and not what they
have necessarily. If we come on strong it is becuse we are a strong
people, strong in love, affection, and in the basic idea of doing what
is right. We do not sometimes stop and think about how others look at
things differenty, because ofour relative isolation, but we really
should since the world is rapidly growing smaller. We have always paid
a fair price for goods, given the right of all to pass with a minimum of
difficulty until otherwise abused, and have as I have said extended the
assistance of the open and generous hand almost unceasingly to almost
everybody throughout our history. The worst we have treated anyone in
the world, was our own people who took the side of Loyalists in the
Revolutionary War, and we have never done that again tp anyone.

Oh yes, we have been rejected, and we have had this hand slapped, and on
occasion in the view of the present day, we have seemed to have made
past errors, but to seriously suggest that these errors were errors at
the time they were made, with the information available, and the ideas
prevelent at the time, I find to be slightly more critical than I wish
to be. All thngs considered the Europeans have benefitted much from the
United States and we in turn from them, and the world today is certainly
better in many respects for the benefit of both.

When I was pleased to serve in the Navy of the United States, both as
enlisted and as an officer, I was always aware that the decisions made
by those in command above me resulted from far more information than I
had at hand personnally. Later as I served as an officer, I came to
realize, that many of my decisions were and had to be based on the
situation at hand, with a secondary view to the future whatever that may
bring. All this while knowing that I had more informaton for my use
than anyone else of those for whom I spoke. Most people who do not have
to make decisions for others, that affect whatever small part of the
world that they represent, will ever know the necesssity of that often
difficult determination, and those who have been so involved know there
is little use in talking about it since those who are involved will
understand automatically and thos who are not so involved will not have
a clue.

Experiences every day with those who report the news, as opposed to
those who make the news, is apparent for all, even the most obtuse, to
see in relation to those kinds of responsibilities.

We both, Europe and the Americas and in fact the whole world face a
problem that we must somehow get around. There is little doubt in my
mind that Bin Laden is serious in his own mind about what he has
convinced himslf of. He is clever, wealthy, wields great influence. and
his beliefs (strange to us though they may be) I believe sustain him in
his assuredly basic way of life. In a way Bin Laden is one face of the
world, in which we must seek to understand, round up, but in the final
steps relieve of the drives that fuel both he, and all those who will
follow if we fail. I also believe that many will follow. Recently a
U.S. Senator said that these "terrorists' were not 10 feet tall, and I
certainly agree, further I am darned glad that they are not, bcause they
are scary enough at 5foot 4inchs!!!

Many here in the U.S. do not understand the mind-set of an individual
who does not fear to die for his / her values. Nor is it, I believe,
fully understood just how difficult it is to stop someone who has no
care for him / herself. We have not come to a full realization of that
as yet. We label the actions of September 11 as cowardly, but in fact
are they?? I think it takes more than a coward to face certain death by
one's own deliberate action. Horrible, yes, beastly, yes, fanatic in
our eyes and in the eyes of Islam, yes, barbaric, yes. Cowardly--I think
the jury is still out on that one.

In closing, My friend Hadrianus, I believe we may be refreshed with the
idea that most thinking Europeans, joined by other parts of the world,
with some obvious exceptions, appreciate us, and like us for what and
who we are, as we return affection and respect to them. Such are the
messages that I have recieved both recently and over the years. Close
association over time does not allow a serious mistake in purpose on the
part of a country to be made by those who are closely associated with
that entity, just as with an individual, and I think our wealth of
frendship in Europe is in safe hands for the most part.

For those who may be counting points, I am not really sure how the
foregoing is involved with the Roman Life, except that in my Humble view
the Roman Authorities understood well the idea of giving to Caesar what
was Caesar's and giving to whatever Gods you may have whatever they
deserved or needed. They certainly knew the value of friendship and the
fanaticism of blind and unreasoning hatred as well. The idea of
respecting other cultures was a part of the Roman Way and many aspects
of the cultures and ways of worship were adopted in places throughout
the Empire. This was at least part and parcel of the intent of the
Roman Way for certain parts of the empire until the greed of given men
and socities were fully engaged.

Commerce, Trade and Comunication was as important then as it is now, and
misunderstandings at high levels were just as disasterous then, as they
are today, Perhaps it can be said that all of the foregoing is simply
to be read in the tapestry of history, woven over and over again, and
the only changes over the ages, are those which are cosmetic only.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens


Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A saddened American...
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:40:12 -0400

>>> shinjikun@-------- Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:02:45 AM
...It seems the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list...>>>

Noble Minucius,

I assume that you're assuming that some members of the European press are members of Nova Roma - perhaps you are correct, but of course, if you're not, then I'm sure you'll agree that it wouldn't be a fair comparison, would it?

And, if you are as aware of the European press' tactics as I am, then you'll agree with me that they can be more sensationalist than American papers - I mean really, whose morning paper in America has a "Page 2 girl"? (If anyone does not what that is, please feel free to email me privately, but trust me, it IS what you think it is. : ) )

But more importantly, if what you say is accurate, then the papers in Europe must not be following Tony Blair's trips around Europe and to America, trying to drum up support and funds for us. The press must not be reporting the untold numbers of non-Americans who were murdered in the WTCs - Britain has called the tragedy the highest # of British killed since WWII - any list circulating on the Net these days can show you the figures to support the fact that huge numbers of those killed were not American. So how the European press (let's call them the "legitimate press" to differentiate them from the bastards of yellow journalism) can report that "we got what we deserve" is unimaginable to me. Perhaps, Minucius, you could give us some links to the articles so we can send them our protests. I'm sure we would appreciate it.

One last word on a personal note, I have about ten really good friends in Europe - England, Scotland, France, and Italy - and they all sent me emails expressing their shock and condolences. Now, I know that ten guys are statistically few to support a position, but I have heard from them that the only emotion most of their countries is feeling right now, aside from shock and dismay, is embarrassment that America has done so much for them and that they can do so little to help us.

It's probably, Minucius, that the press is just trying to sell papers, so I wouldn't put too much faith in trash like that.


Matthew


Matthew Hillliard-Pinkston











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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Stupid? Question.
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:51:37 -0400

Salve,

Do you have a clue how the Taliban believe? They are already oppressing the majority of their own country (that would be the women) - so much that the suicide rate among women has tripled since the Taliban took over. Why would they ever agree to cooperate with the US whom they hate?
Plus, the FBI has certainly got a lot of eveidence that the terrorists involved in this attack had links to Bin Laden. Other links undoubtedly exist, but his name apparently keeps cropping up in the investigation.
I may have my doubts about the total integrity of various US agencies (having worked in the government for years) but compared to much of the world, certainly oppressive regimes prone to massacres of their own dissedent citizens, we have very conscienteous law enforcement.

Helena Galeria

<<<Manius Villius Limitanus said
I am quite sure that if the USA present evidences to the afghan
government they will respect what they publicly declared: extradite Bin
Laden.>>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A saddened American...
From:	"Marcus Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:08:53 +1100

Hadrianus,

Although you asked for the Euro perspective, you also asked what the US
allies would do, or how they're thinking. And so I shall try and share the
Australian perspective.

Here in Canberra, Australia is gearing up to an election due sometime before
the end of the year. Our PM was in Washington on the fateful day, and had
the remainder of his trip cancelled because the US administration was
(obviously) busy with other things following Tuesday last week.

All of Australia's leadership - political - is very much behind the
sentiment that what happened was the epitome of evil and must be prevented
from ever happening again. Our PM has essentially written a blank cheque -
whatever the US administration asks for in terms of help with logistics,
diplomatic work, intelligence, use of facilites etc. We will provide
anything asked. So there is a high degree of support.

Despite this, I went to the mall yesterday with a colleague for lunch. There
were at least a dozen people wandering around with "No War" badges on their
lapels.

There is a concern amongst many here that the attacks last week will result
in the US administration taking its allies down paths they might not wish to
travel. This sentiment is not the majority, but many here are wary of
following an ally into a situation which is against our interests.

Marcus Flavius Aurelius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
marcus.flavius@--------
ICQ: 4895187


----- Original Message -----
From: Adrian Gunn <shinjikun@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 2:02 AM
Subject: [novaroma] A saddened American...


> Salvete,
>
> I have always made an effort to be an informed reader, and try to get
> as my news from as many different sources as possible. I have been
> following the European Press quite a bit, in the wake of the WTC
> disaster, in attempt to get a feel for our allies' viewpoints, and
> what I've found has left me deeply saddened and disturbed. It seems
> the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
> disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
> at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
> would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list:
> Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
> of Europe viewpoint? Do you all really dislike us that much? Is there
> that much resentment against the USA in Europe? I will be the first
> to admit that the US has done a lot of dumb things in the past, and
> frequently our policies have been nearsightedly self-interested, but
> as whole haven't our hearts always been in the right place? Despite
> our differences, I have thought of the USA as a friend of Europe. We
> have always been willing to sacrifice both our lives and economic
> resources in defense of Europe, through two World Wars and the Cold
> War. What would have happened if we had remained neutral in WW2? What
> if there had been no Berlin Airlift? No Marshal plan? No NATO? No
> United Nations? What if the US had insisted the repayment of war debt
> after WW2? Or demanded reparations after WW2? We are certainly not
> perfect, far from it, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has ever
> considered the alternatives. If the only superpower was the Soviet
> Union or Communist China? Or if the USA was really as bad as some
> people like to paint us to be? Can anyone imagine the horror of a
> truly evil or imperialistic USA? It truly saddens me to think the
> world would breath a collective sigh of relief if the USA was to
> suddenly dry up and blow away. While I don't expect the World to
> agree with us on every issue all the time, I think this is an
> instance where it would be nice if it cut us a little slack.
>
> With a heavy heart,
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Oath of Office (corrected)
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:40:19 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Galaicus,
Whatever! Congratulations! You think I can keep this
all straight? :) LOL

Vale Maximina (who speaks very little Latin anyway)

--- Piteas@-------- wrote:
> Oops, I´m the new Aedilis Arenae Hispanae, not the
> new legatus
> externis rebus of that province.
> Sorry
>
> Galaicus
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Maximina Octavia <m--------q@-------->
> wrote:
> > Ave Galaicus,
> > Congratulations on your new office of Legatus
> Externis
> > Rebus Hispaniae.
> > Here is appreciation for your fulfilling these
> duties
> > for Nova Roma.
> > Good luck for the future.
> > Vale, Maximina Octavia
> >
> > --- P--------s@-------- wrote:
> > > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro),
> do
> > > hereby solemnly
> > > swear to
> > > uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always
> in
> > > the best interests
> > > of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix
> > > Galaicus (Alejandro
> > > Carneiro)
> > > swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in
> my
> > > public dealings,
> > > and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
> > > private life.
> > >
> > > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro)
> swear
> > > to uphold and
> > > defend the
> > > Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova
> Roma
> > > and swear never to
> > > act in a way that would threaten its status as
> the
> > > State Religion.
> > >
> > > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro)
> swear
> > > to protect and
> > > defend the
> > > Constitution of Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro)
> > > further swear to
> > > fulfill the
> > > obligations and responsibilities of the office
> of
> > > Aedilis Arenae
> > > Hispanae to the best of my abilities.
> > >
> > > On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in
> the
> > > presence of the Gods
> > > and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their
> will
> > > and favor, do I
> > > accept the position of Aedilis Arenae Hispanae
> and all the
> > > rights, privileges, obligations, and
> > > responsibilities attendant
> > > thereto.
> > >
> > > Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
> > >
> > >
>
>




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