Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Stupid? Question.
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:02:35 -0300

Teleri ferch Nyfain wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Do you have a clue how the Taliban believe? They are already oppressing the majority of their own country (that would be the women) - so much that the suicide rate among women has tripled since the Taliban took over. Why would they ever agree to cooperate with the US whom they hate?

Just because they said so. First the day after the attack, then again
yesterday
offering 2 other options to the USA: give the evidences to 3 ulemas from
3 different islamic country, give the evidence to the organisation of
islamic states if those "independent" referees recommend the extradition
they will do it. G.W.Bush answered: "It is not time for negotiation, it
is time for action".

Taleban is an awful government and they oppress a lot of men too, not
only all women, but they believe in the value of o given word, which is
not the case of the USA. Seems that in the USA the main game is to get
oneself out of a given word/contract and this for you have so many
lawyers.

> Plus, the FBI has certainly got a lot of eveidence that the terrorists involved in this attack had links to Bin Laden. Other links undoubtedly exist, but his name apparently keeps cropping up in the investigation.

If there are proofs: SHOW THEM. A constant in terrorist action is the
revendication of the crime, here Bin Laden specifically said he was not
involved. Of course this is no proof at all of his innocence, and my
conviction is that he is involved. But justice and international
relations ask for proofs.
Even the totally guilty A. Pinochet which is responsible for an
equivalent number of murders was able to not beeing extradited from UK
to Spain.

> I may have my doubts about the total integrity of various US agencies (having worked in the government for years) but compared to much of the world, certainly oppressive regimes prone to massacres of their own dissedent citizens, we have very conscienteous law enforcement.
>

Mmmm, better than most but far from perfect, take a look at the racial
proportions of the convicts (or worse in the death row).

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A saddened American...
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:27:27 -0300

Adrian Gunn wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I have always made an effort to be an informed reader, and try to get
> as my news from as many different sources as possible. I have been
> following the European Press quite a bit, in the wake of the WTC
> disaster, in attempt to get a feel for our allies' viewpoints, and
> what I've found has left me deeply saddened and disturbed. It seems
> the general consensus among the European press is, at best, that this
> disaster was self-inflicted by result of our misguided policies, and
> at worst, that we've finally got what we deserved. As an American, I
> would like to pose a question to the non-US civies here on this list:
> Is this reaction in the press an accurate reflection of the citizens'
> of Europe viewpoint? Do you all really dislike us that much?

No I don t think so. US citizens are not particularly disliked.
No, nobody diserves those sort of killing. There are a lot of bad
feelings against the USA, not against the US citizens or residents.

> Is there
> that much resentment against the USA in Europe?
> I will be the first
> to admit that the US has done a lot of dumb things in the past, and
> frequently our policies have been nearsightedly self-interested, but
> as whole haven't our hearts always been in the right place? Despite
> our differences, I have thought of the USA as a friend of Europe. We
> have always been willing to sacrifice both our lives and economic
> resources in defense of Europe, through two World Wars and the Cold
> War. What would have happened if we had remained neutral in WW2?

You remained neutral. Japan open the war against the USA, and even after
that the USA did not declare war against the other Axis countries.
Several days passed before finally Italy and Germany declared war
against the USA. A stupid move which saved Europe.
The lap of time between Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of war
was the same as the lap of time between the 2 A-Bombs on Japan, since
the justification of the second is that Japan had time enough to
surrender in meantime, the same must apply to the non-declaration of War
of the USA against Germany.

> What
> if there had been no Berlin Airlift? No Marshal plan? No NATO? No
> United Nations? What if the US had insisted the repayment of war debt
> after WW2? Or demanded reparations after WW2?

The Democratic Republics would have spread over Europe, not necessarely
bad.

> We are certainly not
> perfect, far from it, but sometimes I wonder if anyone has ever
> considered the alternatives. If the only superpower was the Soviet
> Union or Communist China? Or if the USA was really as bad as some
> people like to paint us to be? Can anyone imagine the horror of a
> truly evil or imperialistic USA?

Truly imperialistic the USA are, truly evil? No. Just selfish

> It truly saddens me to think the
> world would breath a collective sigh of relief if the USA was to
> suddenly dry up and blow away. While I don't expect the World to
> agree with us on every issue all the time, I think this is an
> instance where it would be nice if it cut us a little slack.

The world feeled sorrow for the american people after last weeks
tragedy, and showed its sympathy to the US citizens and residents. We
all joined in.

In the hypothetical event of the terrorists rublling the WTC and part of
the Pentagon without any casuality and only one wounded: american pride,
the world would have commemorated, that s what I get from the same
readings as yours, and from talks with friends.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] One Canadian's Reaction
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:55:26 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

Hadrianus, amicus, you were wondering whether or not Europeans
disliked you as an American, judging by what you had gleaned from the
European press. I felt bad for you, but as you can see, many of our
European civites have assured you that this cannot be universally
assumed by any means. They may not always agree with you, but dislike
is often not accompanied by their point of view.

I can especially identify with how you feel. To be honest, I was
quite hurt that George W. Bush didn't even acknowledge Canada as being
of any kind of small help to the U. S..........he didn't even
acknowledge that we existed.

He gave more accolades to Iran last night than Canada. Iran, a
country whom in the past has offended the Americans by hostaging
several people, I believe over 100 for approx. a year. Perhaps Bush
does not remember the Iatola who allowed this to transpire. It was a
Canadian Ambassador, Ken Taylor, who worked with the American
government in a plot to free these hostages; it foiled, only 4, I
believe were freed. This was in the '70's.

I hope the "buds" in Iran come through for him.

I am not asking for a cookie each time I do a good deed, but when Iran
is treated like longtime friends, and we are ignored, I tend to get a
little sad.

What have we done, that hasn't happened in the U.S., security-wise?

I am hoping that this omission isn't because one of the perpetrators
was living in Canada and crossed the border into the U.S. With
respect, the American immigrations allowed him into their country.
And it was American companies who trained them in flight procedures.
This is indicative that BOTH Canada and the U.S. need to tighten their
security.
The chain of terrorist infestation intwines the globe; it is not just
in Canada.

Really bothered me, it really did. I couldn't keep my mind off it as I
worked last night. Not you folks, the president's remarks, or lack
thereof.

Thanks for listening.

Pompeia Cornelia


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A saddened American...
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:53:02 -0000

> Adrian Gunn wrote:

>
> No I don t think so. US citizens are not particularly disliked.
> No, nobody diserves those sort of killing. There are a lot of bad
> feelings against the USA, not against the US citizens or residents.
>
>
> You remained neutral. Japan open the war against the USA, and even
after
> that the USA did not declare war against the other Axis countries.
> Several days passed before finally Italy and Germany declared war
> against the USA. A stupid move which saved Europe.
> The lap of time between Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of
war
> was the same as the lap of time between the 2 A-Bombs on Japan,
since
> the justification of the second is that Japan had time enough to
> surrender in meantime, the same must apply to the non-declaration
of War
> of the USA against Germany.
>
>
> The Democratic Republics would have spread over Europe, not
necessarely
> bad.
>
>
> Truly imperialistic the USA are, truly evil? No. Just selfish
>
>
> The world feeled sorrow for the american people after last weeks
> tragedy, and showed its sympathy to the US citizens and residents.
> We all joined in.
>
> In the hypothetical event of the terrorists rublling the WTC and
part of
> the Pentagon without any casuality and only one wounded: american
pride,
> the world would have commemorated, that s what I get from the same
> readings as yours, and from talks with friends.
>

Salve cives.

Although this kind of opinion is not unknown in my circle of
acquaintances, and respectable in itself, I must say that it is not
widely spread there, nor in the hispania provincia. Nor in the
former "Democratic Republics", as far as I know.

A not unremarkable number of europeans do have some amount of
antipathy for the U.S., for a variety of colourful reasons. Some do
maturely and detachedly criticise their outer politics, whereas
others seem to fuzzily dislike globalisation, hamburgers and
genetically modified foods. Much of this disliking can be safely
attributed to remnants of leftist politic ideologies, whose only
standing ideal would be critizising the U.S. and imperialism.

But these people are not, as far as I know, setting the ideological
tone here. That doesn't mean there aren't critics of some aspects of
this country, but they normally don't imply any kind of hatred.

Just my two sestertii

Marcus Salix Saverius


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:14:40 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> Hadrianus, amicus, you were wondering whether or not Europeans
> disliked you as an American, judging by what you had gleaned from
the
> European press. I felt bad for you, but as you can see, many of
our
> European civites have assured you that this cannot be universally
> assumed by any means. They may not always agree with you, but
dislike
> is often not accompanied by their point of view.
>
> I can especially identify with how you feel. To be honest, I was
> quite hurt that George W. Bush didn't even acknowledge Canada as
being
> of any kind of small help to the U. S..........he didn't even
> acknowledge that we existed.
>
>
>
> He gave more accolades to Iran last night than Canada. Iran, a
> country whom in the past has offended the Americans by hostaging
> several people, I believe over 100 for approx. a year. Perhaps
Bush
> does not remember the Iatola who allowed this to transpire. It was
a
> Canadian Ambassador, Ken Taylor, who worked with the American
> government in a plot to free these hostages; it foiled, only 4, I
> believe were freed. This was in the '70's.
>
> I hope the "buds" in Iran come through for him.
>
> I am not asking for a cookie each time I do a good deed, but when
Iran
> is treated like longtime friends, and we are ignored, I tend to get
a
> little sad.
>
> What have we done, that hasn't happened in the U.S., security-wise?
>
> I am hoping that this omission isn't because one of the
perpetrators
> was living in Canada and crossed the border into the U.S. With
> respect, the American immigrations allowed him into their country.
> And it was American companies who trained them in flight
procedures.
> This is indicative that BOTH Canada and the U.S. need to tighten
their
> security.
> The chain of terrorist infestation intwines the globe; it is not
just
> in Canada.
>
> Really bothered me, it really did. I couldn't keep my mind off it
as I
> worked last night. Not you folks, the president's remarks, or lack
> thereof.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Pompeia Cornelia

We love you crazy canucks, Cornelia, really we do! You've given us
SCTV and Canadian beer!

Seriously, though, I think most Americans feel like I do, that Canada
is one of our very best allies and a terrific neighbor. It's no
insult to Canada that we expect and anticipate your help and support -
I don't think we're taking it for granted (although it might seem
that way). I didn't listen to or read Bush's speech yet, but I
imagine the fact that Iran is willing to be helpful was noteworthy
because they are not traditional allies to the U.S., along with their
status as a predominantly Muslim country. That's no excuse to slight
our traditional allies, though. For my part, I appreciate everything
Canada does and will do for us.

Vale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] A Thankful American
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:32:55 -0400

Salvete,

I would like to thank all of the thoughtful civies who responded very
graciously to my post. I sincerely appreciate your your opinions and
support, and in helping me understand the attitudes of Europeans towards
this event. I will again apologize if the tone of my post seemed accusatory,
as I was not thinking terribly objectively when I wrote it. Despite of the
frequently cavalier attitude of the US towards the rest of the world, and
our penchant for unilateralist (is that a word?), deep down we really do
care what the rest of the world thinks of us, and I can't emphasize how much
the support we are receiving from our allies around the world (especially
Europe) means to us.
Thank you!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] One Canadian's Reaction
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:41:59 -0400

Salve,

I think perhaps omission was based on the belief that support from Canada is
implicit in our relationship. That said he should not have omitted Canada in
his speech. Canada has always been one of the two closesest friends of the
USA (the other being the UK) and I think perhaps we have come to take that
fact for granted. While I realize that the thanks of one American can not
compensate for the ommision, I would like you to know that I am truly
grateful for your Nation's supoort and friendship, now, and throughout our
history. Multas Gratias Canada!

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia
-----Original Message-----
From: trog99@-------- [mailto:trog99@--------]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:55 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] One Canadian's Reaction

Salvete Omnes:

Hadrianus, amicus, you were wondering whether or not Europeans
disliked you as an American, judging by what you had gleaned from the
European press. I felt bad for you, but as you can see, many of our
European civites have assured you that this cannot be universally
assumed by any means. They may not always agree with you, but dislike
is often not accompanied by their point of view.

I can especially identify with how you feel. To be honest, I was
quite hurt that George W. Bush didn't even acknowledge Canada as being
of any kind of small help to the U. S..........he didn't even
acknowledge that we existed.

He gave more accolades to Iran last night than Canada. Iran, a
country whom in the past has offended the Americans by hostaging
several people, I believe over 100 for approx. a year. Perhaps Bush
does not remember the Iatola who allowed this to transpire. It was a
Canadian Ambassador, Ken Taylor, who worked with the American
government in a plot to free these hostages; it foiled, only 4, I
believe were freed. This was in the '70's.

I hope the "buds" in Iran come through for him.

I am not asking for a cookie each time I do a good deed, but when Iran
is treated like longtime friends, and we are ignored, I tend to get a
little sad.

What have we done, that hasn't happened in the U.S., security-wise?

I am hoping that this omission isn't because one of the perpetrators
was living in Canada and crossed the border into the U.S. With
respect, the American immigrations allowed him into their country.
And it was American companies who trained them in flight procedures.
This is indicative that BOTH Canada and the U.S. need to tighten their
security.
The chain of terrorist infestation intwines the globe; it is not just
in Canada.

Really bothered me, it really did. I couldn't keep my mind off it as I
worked last night. Not you folks, the president's remarks, or lack
thereof.

Thanks for listening.

Pompeia Cornelia


Subject:	[novaroma] A surprised Spaniard (Re: A saddened American...)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete quirites; et salve, Saveri.

--- Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Salve cives.
>
> Although this kind of opinion is not unknown in my circle of
> acquaintances, and respectable in itself, I must say that it is not
> widely spread there, nor in the hispania provincia. Nor in the
> former "Democratic Republics", as far as I know.
>
> A not unremarkable number of europeans do have some amount of
> antipathy for the U.S., for a variety of colourful reasons. Some do
> maturely and detachedly criticise their outer politics, whereas
> others seem to fuzzily dislike globalisation, hamburgers and
> genetically modified foods. Much of this disliking can be safely
> attributed to remnants of leftist politic ideologies, whose only
> standing ideal would be critizising the U.S. and imperialism.
>
> But these people are not, as far as I know, setting the ideological
> tone here. That doesn't mean there aren't critics of some aspects of
> this country, but they normally don't imply any kind of hatred.
>
> Just my two sestertii
>
> Marcus Salix Saverius

Saverius speaks the truth. Besides, I just wanted to say how happy I am
to see other cives of Hispania partecipating in the debates of the main
list. Welcome, Saveri!

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] One Canadian's Reaction
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:25:58 -0400

Salve,
Dubya is not only a, well, less than commanding presence, he actually did not get elected by the majority vote. He's apparently once again put his foot in it. However, most of us just don't agree with him. I personnally put my full support behind Colin Powell in these troubling days, and try not to watch our esteemed leader (the blood pressure thing).
I'm sure most Americans appreciate Cananda, and observe Iran's "support" with the cynicism it deserves.
Vale bene,
Helena Galeria
Pompeia Cornelia scripsit:

To be honest, I was
quite hurt that George W. Bush didn't even acknowledge Canada as being
of any kind of small help to the U. S..........he didn't even
acknowledge that we existed.

He gave more accolades to Iran last night than Canada.

Really bothered me, it really did. I couldn't keep my mind off it as I
worked last night. Not you folks, the president's remarks, or lack
thereof.

Thanks for listening.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of office - Juramento de cargo
From:	"Laietanus" <enric.ferrer@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:37:58 +0200

I, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As an official of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer)
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer) swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer) swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Legatus Internis
Rebus Hispaniae to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae and all the
rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant
thereto.

Prouincia Hispania, a.d. XI kal.oct. 2754 a.u.c.
Lucius Minicius Laietanus

==============================

Yo, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer), juro solemnemente por este
acto defender el honor de Nova Roma y actuar siempre en inter�s del pueblo y
el Senado de Nova Roma.

Como oficial de Nova Roma yo, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer),
juro honrar a los Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis actuaciones p�blicas y seguir
las Virtudes Romanas en mi vida p�blica y privada.

Yo, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer), juro apoyar y defender la Religio
Romana como religi�n de Estado de Nova Roma y juro no actuar nunca de forma tal
que amenace su estatus de Religi�n de Estado.

Yo, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer), juro proteger y defender la Constituci�n
de Nova Roma.

Yo, Lucius Minicius Laietanus (Enric Ferrer), juro adem�s cumplir con las obligaciones
y responsabilidades del cargo de Legatus Internis Rebus Prouinciae Hispaniae de la mejor
forma que me sea posible.

Por mi honor como ciudadano de Nova Roma, y en presencia de los Dioses y Diosas
del pueblo romano y por su voluntad y favor, acepto el puesto de Legatus Internis Rebus
Hispaniae y los derechos, privilegios, obligaciones y responsabilidades que ello conlleva.

Prouincia Hispania, a.d. XI kal.oct. 2754 a.u.c.
Lucius Minicius Laietanus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] A surprised Spaniard (Re: A saddened American...)
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:03:09 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete quirites; et salve, Saveri.
>
> --- Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > Salve cives.
> >
> > Although this kind of opinion is not unknown in my circle of
> > acquaintances, and respectable in itself, I must say that it is
not
> > widely spread there, nor in the hispania provincia. Nor in the
> > former "Democratic Republics", as far as I know.
> >
> > A not unremarkable number of europeans do have some amount of
> > antipathy for the U.S., for a variety of colourful reasons. Some
do
> > maturely and detachedly criticise their outer politics, whereas
> > others seem to fuzzily dislike globalisation, hamburgers and
> > genetically modified foods. Much of this disliking can be safely
> > attributed to remnants of leftist politic ideologies, whose only
> > standing ideal would be critizising the U.S. and imperialism.
> >
> > But these people are not, as far as I know, setting the
ideological
> > tone here. That doesn't mean there aren't critics of some aspects
of
> > this country, but they normally don't imply any kind of hatred.
> >
> > Just my two sestertii
> >
> > Marcus Salix Saverius
>
> Saverius speaks the truth. Besides, I just wanted to say how happy
I am
> to see other cives of Hispania partecipating in the debates of the
main
> list. Welcome, Saveri!
>
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
>
Salvete,

I know emotions are still running high, but the support of our Salix
brothers, and all the other supportive posts, still ease the burden
of those of us in the U.S. For the vast majority who have expressed
support, I thank you once again. It makes a difference.

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:10:51 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:
> Salve,
> Dubya is not only a, well, less than commanding presence, he
actually did not get elected by the majority vote. He's apparently
once again put his foot in it. However, most of us just don't agree
with him. I personnally put my full support behind Colin Powell in
these troubling days, and try not to watch our esteemed leader (the
blood pressure thing).
> I'm sure most Americans appreciate Cananda, and observe
Iran's "support" with the cynicism it deserves.
> Vale bene,
> Helena Galeria

I'm willing to shelve some of my Bush criticisms for the time being,
in the interest of the greater cause, but that doesn't invalidate
them or end them. I understand he mentioned something about embarking
on 'a crusade' earlier this week (I am getting this second-hand, so I
don't know the details), and that was clearly a badly chosen and
insensitive choice of words. I doubt he meant it the way some people
will take it (I don't get a strong impression of him being outright
malicious, for all the criticisms I do have of him), but that's the
danger when the Prez is not always clear in expressing himself. I
think he did the right thing in decrying the backlash against
Muslims, and needs to stay on message with that to keep reminding
people not to hold Islam at large responsible for this atrocity. I do
agree that Secretary Powell seems to be a calm, clear-headed, and
intelligent individual, and I do have some confidence in his
abilities.

What exactly did GWB say about Iran's 'support'? I've only gotten a
vague impression to date.

Valete bene,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Staves of Rank (Ensigns)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:24:14 -0400 (EDT)

Commander Gallio;

As I indicated to you at Memorytown, I had come across some information
regarding the official staves of rank (ensigns) that we discussed.

>The "legatus",senior "tribuni" and "praefectus castorum" had thier own
staffs under the charge of a "Cornicularis legati, tribuni or
praefectii." These men were usually old soldiers, now past the prime of
thier active field career and delegated to many kinds of staff work and
other duties. They took the status of the officer, or official in whose
"officium" they served. The highest appointments would have been under
the provincial govenor, who would have had at least 60 "beneficari"
serving him.<

Ref.
G.R. Watson, "The Roman Soldier", 1969, Pages 85-86.

> An example in Britain is C. Mannius Secundus of Leg. XX whose
tombstone (RIB 293) was found at Wroxeter, declares him to have been a
"beneficarius legati pro praetore." While still attached and drawing
his pay from the legion, then stationed at Glouchester (see page 42)
what his duties were at Wroxeter is impossible to know, but these men
acted as district police officers on behalf of the govenor, or he may
have had a special assignment. Those on the staff of the procurator
(beneficari procuratoris) were presunably toll and tax collectors.<

Ref.
G.R. Watson, "The Roman Soldier", 1969

>Under the heading of ensigns and insignia might also be included the
official staves denoting the rank held. A "beneficarius," for example,
on official business bore the authority he derived as the agent of the
officer he served. His ensign is shown on a relief of the altar erected
by Tertinius Severus of VII Augusta, a "beneficarius consularis." It
consisted of a disc with two circular holes in it and a projecting
spike, very similar to an actual example found in Germany. Another very
different form, but in silver, comes from Caerleon.<

Ref.

--CIL (Corpus Inscriptum Latinarum), xiii, 7731; the stone is in the
Musee de Liege;

--Germania Romana, 1922, Taf. 94, No. &. See also A. Alfoldi, "Von
Speerattribut der altromischen Konige zu den Benefiziarierlanzen", in
Limes-Studien, Dasel, 1959, pp.7-12;
E. Ritterling, "Ein Amtsabzeichen der beneficarii conslaris im Museum zu
Wiesbaden, BJ. 125 (1919), pp.9-37.

>In these areas considered to have been conqured, civil officers under
the govenor and the procurator would have established a fiscal and an
administrative system, but they were aided by legionaries with the title
of "beneficarii" who were attached to the staffs of the two principal
officials. These were soldiers who chose to stay on after thier period
of active service but still presumably drawing thier pay from the unit
since on thier tombstones the affiliation still existed. Thier duties
were often tax and custom collection. police duties including the
gathering of intelligence and traffic control on rivers and roads and of
markets and harbors. A British example can be cited from
Dorchester-on-Thames, where a "benficarius consularis" may have been the
custom officer at a port on the river where goods could have been
transferred from river to road and visa versa. Pliney's letters show
how watchful Trajan was in controlling the numbers of these officials.

Ref.

The govenor could have had as many as sixty, but Pliny records a
procurator as having been given ten under a Centurion.

"The Roman Imperial Army," Graham Webster, 3rd Edition, Pages 118, 139 ,
270.

Respectfully submitted;

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:03:00 -0400

Well, as I avoid listening to the actual broadcasts I'm not sure. I believe someone else on the list gave a summary. As for why I mentioned Secretary of State Colin Powell - not only is he level-headed, etc - he was the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Gulf War - a 5-star General. I'm retired Navy - I trust this man much more than any of the politicians on Capitol Hill whatever party they are in.
Helena Galeria

What exactly did GWB say about Iran's 'support'? I've only gotten a
vague impression to date.

Valete bene,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

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