| Subject: |
[novaroma] Some Brief Responses |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 04:16:07 +0200 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I would like to say that I agree with Senator Audens, that
in general the peoples of the world treat Americans
decently. I have not had his chances to travel, but I have
been around the world a couple of times and living abroad
for some 25 years in Taiwan and Poland. I have been in
Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Canada and about ten
European countries, and in *all* I was treated on the whole
very decently indeed, often better than the inhabitants
treat each other! I even during the past summer was in a
course with a young female Latinist from Serbia, who was
perfectly friendly even in describing the bombs NATO
dropped around her, although she knew that I was American.
Europeans often do disagree with the U.S. foreign policy by
feeling that the Palestinians' cause should receive more
support (without hurting Israel), that the case of human
hardship in Iraq caused by the trade embargo is excessive,
and that the U.S. is too eager to use force in general. Not
all Europeans by any means feel even these things, and even
those who do on the whole rather like the U.S. anyway, and
would rarely think that their disagreements would justify
being intentionally rude to an American. Sympathy for
Americans in the wake of the tragedy is well nigh
universal.
I also agree with Senator Audens that the terrorists were
not cowards. Being willing to die for one's convictions is
usually not easy. The courage is even admirable, but
unfortunately tainted by being in the all too efficient
service of hate. The courage of those who reportedly fought
with the hijackers on the Pittsburgh plane to stop its
being used as a missile and save the lives of others is far
more admirable, and commands the highest respect of us all.
_________
Pompeia, I know that we often seem neglectful of Canada and
to take her for granted, while our sheer population size
and economy have an enormous impact there. I think the
President's speech (the parts of it I heard) was excellent,
and I hope you will forgive him for not mentioning Canada.
As an American who has been to Canada twice for a total of
about two weeks there, I must say I have found Canadians to
be hospitable and kind, and it is one of the countries I
would most like to live in. The health care system in which
you work is, I think, to be admired, as is much else there
from your clean cities to your vast and beautiful
wildernesses. I learned "O Canada" in school right
alongside the "Star Spangled Banner", and I was just
singing it to myself last night (I don't know why). In
short, although we take you for granted, that is just
because we feel perfectly comfortable with you, and think
you a good neighbour. Vivat Canadia! :-)
Valete!
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction |
| From: |
trog99@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 02:30:56 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, radams36@j... wrote:
> --- I
do
> agree that Secretary Powell seems to be a calm, clear-headed, and
> intelligent individual, and I do have some confidence in his
> abilities.
Pompeia: As do I.
>
> What exactly did GWB say about Iran's 'support'? I've only gotten a
> vague impression to date.
Pompeia: I guess if one is not Canadian, you would not realize that
the fact that we were completely overlooked as a friend and ally, and
Iran was given these accolades, is stinging, and leaves one feeling
hurt.
This occurred during the first portion of the speech, when he listed
all the supporters of the U.S.
I will grant you, that our Primeminister, Jean Cretien, has not
"blindly" pledged military support. For one thing, our military
support will be niggardly. We likely have 6 boats and 6 tanks, plus a
handcount of planes. Our technical support will probably be the best
asset. We are not the UK; we are Canada. It is not that military
support is being refused, but I think our government wants to make
sure that the military approach is part of a well-thought,
constructive plan. Our Minister of Foreign Affairs met with Collin
Powell today to determine exactly what it is of Canada the U.S. needs.
Because this is taking longer than Bush would like, we are snubbed?
I am just thinking of all the possible reasons why he did this. About
5 people wrote that speech, I'm sure, and nobody noticed? This was no
"stumble-bum" oversight, I do not believe.
I dunno...I just see all these kids having bake sales at schools,
steelworkers, firefighters having these benefits to raise money "for
the cause", stores and restaurants collecting donations, Celine Dion
planning to sing God Bless America at the national telethon and we
are not even acknowledged as part of the team? Kind of demoralizing,
but I guess if you are not Canadian you would not entirely understand
where I'm coming from. And I do not fault you personally for that.
It is just a low blow from the President of the United States,
behaviourwise, toward an ally he has had since the end of the war of
1812.
I have said all I have to say on the issue. Time for some Roman
threads, maybe.
vale,
Pompeia
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction |
| From: |
bcatfd@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 03:51:25 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:
> Well, as I avoid listening to the actual broadcasts I'm not sure.
>I believe someone else on the list gave a summary. As for why I
>mentioned Secretary of State Colin Powell - not only is he level-
>headed, etc - he was the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
>during the Gulf War - a 5-star General. I'm retired Navy - I trust
>this man much more than any of the politicians on Capitol Hill
>whatever party they are in.
Powell was a 4 star, not a 5. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is a 4
star rank. There hasn't been anyone promoted to 5 star general--also
known as General of the Army--since Omar Bradley in 1950. He was the
last one as I recall and he is 20 years dead. I think there were only
4: Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Bradley. We will in all
likelihood never see another, though one never knows. Let us hope
not, for that would likely mean a Third World War.
(The navy has an equivalent 5 star rank, Admiral of the Fleet. The
only one who comes to mind of that rank was Nimitz, though there may
have been others. )
As for Bush, we all--even me, who voted for him--had some doubts
about his ability (in retrospect it was probably too much propaganda
during the campaign last year) but his actions since the WTC attack
have laid those fears to rest. He has risen to the job. His
sincerity, confidence and resolution mark him as perfectly suited for
this moment.
Thank you to all our European citizens who have expressed their
condolences and support to those of us in the U.S. It has meant a lot
to all of us.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] One Canadian's Reaction |
| From: |
Maximina Octavia <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Ave Pompeia,
How can you be hurt?! Some of us Americans see Canada
as the the Northern United States? (LOL) (kidding)
Iran on the other hand, is usually hostile, so it is
quite remarkable that they offer their support. If
they are honestly with us, this is an awesome
breakthrough.
The only country that did not offer support or
sympathy was Iraq. Personally, I thank all the other
countries that do support the U.S.
As our sister, I think it is implied that we are
allies. I thank you. In Fact, my ex-stepmom and my
stepsister are Canadian. How aboot that, Eh?
Vale, Maximina (CanUsa Forever!)
--- trog99@-------- wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> Hadrianus, amicus, you were wondering whether or not
> Europeans
> disliked you as an American, judging by what you had
> gleaned from the
> European press. I felt bad for you, but as you can
> see, many of our
> European civites have assured you that this cannot
> be universally
> assumed by any means. They may not always agree
> with you, but dislike
> is often not accompanied by their point of view.
>
> I can especially identify with how you feel. To be
> honest, I was
> quite hurt that George W. Bush didn't even
> acknowledge Canada as being
> of any kind of small help to the U. S..........he
> didn't even
> acknowledge that we existed.
>
>
>
> He gave more accolades to Iran last night than
> Canada. Iran, a
> country whom in the past has offended the Americans
> by hostaging
> several people, I believe over 100 for approx. a
> year. Perhaps Bush
> does not remember the Iatola who allowed this to
> transpire. It was a
> Canadian Ambassador, Ken Taylor, who worked with the
> American
> government in a plot to free these hostages; it
> foiled, only 4, I
> believe were freed. This was in the '70's.
>
> I hope the "buds" in Iran come through for him.
>
> I am not asking for a cookie each time I do a good
> deed, but when Iran
> is treated like longtime friends, and we are
> ignored, I tend to get a
> little sad.
>
> What have we done, that hasn't happened in the U.S.,
> security-wise?
>
> I am hoping that this omission isn't because one of
> the perpetrators
> was living in Canada and crossed the border into the
> U.S. With
> respect, the American immigrations allowed him into
> their country.
> And it was American companies who trained them in
> flight procedures.
> This is indicative that BOTH Canada and the U.S.
> need to tighten their
> security.
> The chain of terrorist infestation intwines the
> globe; it is not just
> in Canada.
>
> Really bothered me, it really did. I couldn't keep
> my mind off it as I
> worked last night. Not you folks, the president's
> remarks, or lack
> thereof.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction |
| From: |
radams36@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 04:30:11 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, trog99@h... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, radams36@j... wrote:
> > --- I
> do
> > agree that Secretary Powell seems to be a calm, clear-headed, and
> > intelligent individual, and I do have some confidence in his
> > abilities.
>
> Pompeia: As do I.
> >
> > What exactly did GWB say about Iran's 'support'? I've only gotten
a
> > vague impression to date.
>
> Pompeia: I guess if one is not Canadian, you would not realize
that
> the fact that we were completely overlooked as a friend and ally,
and
> Iran was given these accolades, is stinging, and leaves one feeling
> hurt.
>
> This occurred during the first portion of the speech, when he
listed
> all the supporters of the U.S.
>
> vale,
> Pompeia
>
>
Speaking for myself, I will just briefly reiterate. I think the
overwhelming support from other nations has been heartwarming and
moving, and it is appreciated more than I can say. I don't presume to
speak for anyone else, but from me to ALL of you and to your nations
and leadership - thank you so very much for your promised help and
continuing support.
Valete bene,
Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Inquiry on the handling of crises. |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:38:33 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Since Sept. 11, our list has been focused on events that will ultimately
shape our lives in ways we never have thought possible. In the past two
weeks I have seen a variety of responses to the attacks the United
States has faced. However, as Pompeia Cornelia stated in an earlier
post maybe we should start discussing topics that are related to Roma.
Well, I have been thinking since this tragedy has befallen the world,
how would the ancients have dealt with this?
Before this life changing event, we were discussing Tuteorberg Wald
(sp.). My inquiry might tie into that, here is my question. There
seems, based on my readings, a various scale of tragedies that befell
Rome. Some that come to mind are:
Passing under the Yoke,
Defeats like the Tuteroberg Wald/Aurasio and other major defeats
Breechs in the Frontier
Mass killings of Roman Citizens
the Sack of Rome in 410/455 ce
My questions on this are which were more catestrophic in relation to how
they affected the average citizen and why?
Also, in what realm would this tragedy be rated to the ancients? IE.
Was the reaction similar to the citizens reacations when an army was
forced to pass under the yoke? why or why not?
This is something I have been wondering for a while.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] A surprised Spaniard (Re: A saddened American...) |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:14:06 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete Hispanici; et salve, Paleologe.
--- radams36@-------- wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I know emotions are still running high, but the support of our Salix
> brothers, and all the other supportive posts, still ease the burden
> of those of us in the U.S. For the vast majority who have expressed
> support, I thank you once again. It makes a difference.
>
> Valete,
>
> Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
I think I can speak in the name of all the gens Salicia, and of all the
cives of Hispania (and maybe of Europe as well), when I say that we are
very pleased (and even flattered!) to hear that our written support
does somehow ease the pain, even a little bit.
That is what we have surely tried in the last days; to show you (the
American people) that we do like you and that you are appreciated. It
is true that America's behaviour has not been perfect in the past; but
who can claim such a deed?
We hope you can overcome this terrible blow, and we will give you our
moral support, if that is what you need.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: One Canadian's Reaction |
| From: |
"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 02:34:06 -0400 |
|
I worked at Camp Smith when the Admiral of the Fleet (Joint Chief) worked there - he was referred to as a 5-star. I just go by what I was told by the Special Forces General at the time (1989).
Helena
(The navy has an equivalent 5 star rank, Admiral of the Fleet. The
only one who comes to mind of that rank was Nimitz, though there may
have been others. )
Decius Iunius Palladius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] A surprised Spaniard (Re: A saddened American...) |
| From: |
radams36@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:56:35 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Hispanici; et salve, Paleologe.
>
> --- radams36@-------- wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I know emotions are still running high, but the support of our
Salix
> > brothers, and all the other supportive posts, still ease the
burden
> > of those of us in the U.S. For the vast majority who have
expressed
> > support, I thank you once again. It makes a difference.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
>
> I think I can speak in the name of all the gens Salicia, and of all
the
> cives of Hispania (and maybe of Europe as well), when I say that we
are
> very pleased (and even flattered!) to hear that our written support
> does somehow ease the pain, even a little bit.
>
> That is what we have surely tried in the last days; to show you (the
> American people) that we do like you and that you are appreciated.
It
> is true that America's behaviour has not been perfect in the past;
but
> who can claim such a deed?
>
> We hope you can overcome this terrible blow, and we will give you
our
> moral support, if that is what you need.
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
>
> __________________________________________________
Thank you very much. You hate to look for anything 'good' to come out
of all this, but maybe the worldwide realization that our cultures'
similarities are greater and more significant than our differences is
one of them. Let's hope the world doesn't soon forget this hard-
earned lesson.
Warmest regards,
Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Apology, (was One Canadian's Reaction) |
| From: |
"Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:58:22 -0400 |
|
Salvete Quirites: I can believe that we were simply overlooked because the American government is so comfortable with living in peace with us next door to them. Having been friends since the end of the War of 1812, and the fact that we are so much alike may have a great deal to do with Bush forgetting to mention us. I am sure he appreciates the assistance of the Canadian people.
But something else occurred to me as well. During the Presidential elections, Prime Minister Jean Chretien made perfectly clear that he hoped Al Gore would win the election and become President. Chretien has no love for President Bush, and Bush knows it. Chretien liked Al Gore because their political philosophical beliefs are a lot closer then Chretien and Bush's. I am sure that Bush hasn't forgotten.
Also earlier this week, our great Prime Minister, Jean Chretien stated the he wasn't aware of any terrorist cells operating in Canada. Either he is a total idiot, (The average Canadian is well aware that we have terrorist cells working here), or he is trying to win the gold medal for lying. I am sure that President Bush is shocked at the statements and words coming out of Chretien's mouth. I know for a fact that a lot of my fellow Canadians are sickened by some of the statements coming from Chretien and his cabinent members lately. (especially the Immigration Minister).
The R.C.M.P. and theC.S.I.S., our version of the C.I.A., and other intelligence agencies around the world including the C.I.A.made perfectly clear to the Canadian government and the media, several years ago, and again quite recently, that we have terrorist cells in Canada, including Islamic Jihad, and Hammas, and even El Queida, along with the I.R.A. and Tamil groups, who raise money for their causes back home. Some, including Hammas and Islamic Jihad even have charitable status for tax purposes and one of them at least, I believe Islamic Jihad, even ran a web site in Canada to support their cause. UNBELIEVABLE!!! The government is now looking at withdrawing their charitable status. Oh boy!!.
I am sure that President bush and his Cabinent look at these things up here in Canada, and wonder what is in the water that our Canadian leaders are drinking. Or perhaps its something in the air in Ottawa that they breathe. They certainly don't reflect what the average Canadian thinks.
From this Canadian, I offer sincere apologies to the victims, for the words, and lack of action of our leaders here in Canada.
Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Nothing new |
| From: |
"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:57:43 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I would like to thank Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix for beginning the thread
of "handling crisis". I have also wondered what historical comparisons could
be made to current events. In pondering historical comparisons I find myself
drawn to considering the history of the Province of Caesaria (Palestine). It
seems a case could be made that our current events are a continuation of
struggles that have centered on that region for centuries. What lessons can
we learn by considering the history of that area and events concerning it?
In other words, this is not the first time a superpower has had to deal with
problems concerning these geographic areas or concerning fanatical extremist
groups (the term "Zealot" and it's origins springs to mind) and their
attempts to bring down an people.
So, let me ask if others see this kind of similarity. Rome moved into
Palestine/Israel/Caesaria and had to deal with fundamentalist extremist
groups that worshipped a foreign religion. That group was prosecuted for
their political, not religious, beliefs. The religion of the rebels spread
and became accepted by a more moderate element of society. Eventually, it
became the official religion of the Empire.
How much of a reflection of those past events is seen in current events? How
possible would a similar outcome be in the future? What lessons can we learn
from our forefathers handling of their similar situation?
I realize I may have over simplified some very complex issues. My purpose is
to try to stimulate discussion of history and specifically Roma. I eagerly
await responses.
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious
"What then? if a good man should see his father or his son under the knife,
will he not weep, will he not faint?" But this is the way we see women act
whenever they are upset by the slightest suggestion of danger. The good man
will perform his duties undisturbed and unafraid; and he will in such a way
do all that is worthy of a good man as to do nothing that is unworthy of a
man. My father is being murdered - I will defend him; he is slain - I will
avenge him, not because I grieve, but because it is my duty" -Seneca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 9:38 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Inquiry on the handling of crises.
> Ave,
>
> Since Sept. 11, our list has been focused on events that will ultimately
> shape our lives in ways we never have thought possible. In the past two
> weeks I have seen a variety of responses to the attacks the United
> States has faced. However, as Pompeia Cornelia stated in an earlier
> post maybe we should start discussing topics that are related to Roma.
> Well, I have been thinking since this tragedy has befallen the world,
> how would the ancients have dealt with this?
>
> Before this life changing event, we were discussing Tuteorberg Wald
> (sp.). My inquiry might tie into that, here is my question. There
> seems, based on my readings, a various scale of tragedies that befell
> Rome. Some that come to mind are:
>
> Passing under the Yoke,
> Defeats like the Tuteroberg Wald/Aurasio and other major defeats
> Breechs in the Frontier
> Mass killings of Roman Citizens
> the Sack of Rome in 410/455 ce
>
> My questions on this are which were more catestrophic in relation to how
> they affected the average citizen and why?
>
> Also, in what realm would this tragedy be rated to the ancients? IE.
> Was the reaction similar to the citizens reacations when an army was
> forced to pass under the yoke? why or why not?
>
> This is something I have been wondering for a while.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] A saddened American |
| From: |
"Bjarne Sinkjaer" <bjsink@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:39:26 -0000 |
|
Ave C. Minucius Hadrianus
Before I to answer your question, I feel I must state two things. In
my answer I will come forth with some harsh judgment of US foreign
politics. Please understand, that I may speak out against American
actions, *not* the American people. You can do nothing about who you
are, but you can change your politics - and that is the only thing I
wish for. Second, please consider my answer as a personal one; I do
not speak by behalf of all Danes, nor all Europeans.
Let me say that the first reactions in Denmark were, and still are,
shock, disbelief and sympathy for those involved, and for the
American people as a whole. Beside a very small group of confused
youngsters of Arabian heritage, no one here has reacted as you
described. There was an improvised demonstration by young political
groups, ranging from the far left to the right. Flowers and candles
were laid down at the American embassy. Thousands have made
condolences on the Internet. The whole country held to minutes of
silence last Friday 12. O'clock.
Some have said, that this was not a attack on United Sate, but an
attack on the western civilization. But some have also said, that the
terrorist's action is a result of American politics – a result of
American economic, cultural and military expansionism – and that this
terrorist action should be taken as a warning, that Unites States
should change their behavior. It is *not* the same as that there
where any justification for a attack like this, or the Americans, by
any means, got that they deserved. I tend to agree to both statements.
The foreign politics of the United States has caused deep concern in
the last couple of years. There has been a trend in American foreign
politics of self-interest, isolationism, and disregard of
International organizations and agreements – anything that might not
be in the interest of the United States. This politics has culminated
under the current administration, but has been underway for some time
now – and is not been seen on as wise here in Europe.
United State has blocked international agreements on mines, small
arms, global warming, war crime tribunal, to name those I can
remember. The Israeli and American emigration from the racism
congress in South Africa is just the latest example. The United
States has refused to pay what it owns UN, but have nevertheless
tried several time to force it's own terms on several organization
inside the UN, regardless of that other member states might think of
it. In Denmark, a country who placed great in UN, this has caused
great irritation. The stated intention of one-sided canceling of the
ABM agreement by the United States, has given rise to speculations to
if anyone can make agreements with the United States anymore, or if
the United States will only uphold the agreements so long it is in
America's own interest.
President Bush has stated in his speak yesterday, "that either you
are with us, or you are against us." That means, that either do I
totally agree in every thing Unity State might do in the current,
however rush and unwise they might be, or I am in league with
terrorist. It say something on how Unity State look on the rest of
the world.
Lay to this the one-sided grouping with Israel in the Israel-
Palestinian conflict, and the placement of American troop in Saudi
Arabia, a government many Muslims sees as corrupt – and you can see
how some think that this terrorist action is a consequence of the
politics of United States.
Now. In the late 19. Century there was some very serious social
unrest here in Denmark. The democracy was new and untried, and people
could not wholly agree on its terms. In 1872 Left won the majority in
the parliament, but a rightwing politician, Estrup, where appointed
by the king to gather a government. That sparked a political battle.
Some Left politicians were send to jail, the Blue Gendarmes roam the
countryside, and the hate of the people was growing. Riffle
associatings ware made. In the end nothing would come from this,
because nobody would take the responsibility for a revolution.
Instead a national compromise was made in 1892, who said "We make
sure you don't starve, and You don't make revolution."
Today globalism has made the spasm between the rich and poor wider.
And they are painfully aware of this, because they see us every day
in the television. America are going to make war against terrorism –
and you think you can win, with all your high-tech weaponry. I do not
think so. But even if you do, even if you exterminate the current
generation of international terrorist, you don't remove the
underlying cause for international terrorism. And in five or ten
years there will be a new generation of desperate people, who have
nothing to lose by fighting us by any means have. And perhaps, next
time they might have a atomic bomb, or a deadly virus. We can never
wholly protect our self from this – we can only remove the reason why
fanatics never find it difficult to recruit men to their cause. And
that crave that we all, in America as in Europe - work together to
solve the problems that trouble our age.
Respectfully
A. Cornelius Sallust
PS. Please excuse me my limited English, but it is not my native
language.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Nothing new |
| From: |
mark zona <pitdog2002@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:33:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve quirites!
If I recall my history correctly, Rome and Judah were
allies during and well afer the selucid wars. When the
hasmonian dynasty in judah had inner dispute, the
Roman armies were invited in to help stabilize the
government, and remained at the request of the
hasmonian monarchy. All future rebellions by some
fringe religious groups (the bar kochba rebellion for
example) were as much against the Hasmonians rulers as
they were against the Roman occupation. Because the
Roman and Judean governments were allies, Judaism was
always treated as an acceptable religion within the
Roman Empire, and the number of Jews living outside of
Judea greatly outnumbered the number living within.
With regard to the galilean sect of Judaism which
would eventually replace the religio Romana as the
official religion of Rome, that sect was officially
considered as a heretical sect of Judaism centuries
before, and were shunned by main stream Jews.
The Romans made a strong distinction between the
practitioners of Judaism that were loyal Romans (the
majority) and the small fringe religious/political
zeaolots who rebelled against the Hasmonian rulers and
the Roman Empire.
I would imagine that if our Roman forefathers were
with us today, they would make the same distinction
between the followers of Islam and the radical islamic
terrorist groups who plague us today.
I also imagine, that a modern Roman army would come to
the aid of its allies and make all out war on those
terrorist, much like the Roman armies of old came to
the aid of their ally Judea, and crushed the
rebellious zealots who would wrestle power from the
Hasmonian monarchy.
And I don't believe they would think twice about it.
Salvete Omnes
Marcus Antonius Zeno
--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I would like to thank Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> for beginning the thread
> of "handling crisis". I have also wondered what
> historical comparisons could
> be made to current events. In pondering historical
> comparisons I find myself
> drawn to considering the history of the Province of
> Caesaria (Palestine). It
> seems a case could be made that our current events
> are a continuation of
> struggles that have centered on that region for
> centuries. What lessons can
> we learn by considering the history of that area and
> events concerning it?
> In other words, this is not the first time a
> superpower has had to deal with
> problems concerning these geographic areas or
> concerning fanatical extremist
> groups (the term "Zealot" and it's origins springs
> to mind) and their
> attempts to bring down an people.
> So, let me ask if others see this kind of
> similarity. Rome moved into
> Palestine/Israel/Caesaria and had to deal with
> fundamentalist extremist
> groups that worshipped a foreign religion. That
> group was prosecuted for
> their political, not religious, beliefs. The
> religion of the rebels spread
> and became accepted by a more moderate element of
> society. Eventually, it
> became the official religion of the Empire.
> How much of a reflection of those past events is
> seen in current events? How
> possible would a similar outcome be in the future?
> What lessons can we learn
> from our forefathers handling of their similar
> situation?
> I realize I may have over simplified some very
> complex issues. My purpose is
> to try to stimulate discussion of history and
> specifically Roma. I eagerly
> await responses.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full
> responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "What then? if a good man should see his father or
> his son under the knife,
> will he not weep, will he not faint?" But this is
> the way we see women act
> whenever they are upset by the slightest suggestion
> of danger. The good man
> will perform his duties undisturbed and unafraid;
> and he will in such a way
> do all that is worthy of a good man as to do nothing
> that is unworthy of a
> man. My father is being murdered - I will defend
> him; he is slain - I will
> avenge him, not because I grieve, but because it is
> my duty" -Seneca
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix"
> <alexious@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 9:38 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Inquiry on the handling of
> crises.
>
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Since Sept. 11, our list has been focused on
> events that will ultimately
> > shape our lives in ways we never have thought
> possible. In the past two
> > weeks I have seen a variety of responses to the
> attacks the United
> > States has faced. However, as Pompeia Cornelia
> stated in an earlier
> > post maybe we should start discussing topics that
> are related to Roma.
> > Well, I have been thinking since this tragedy has
> befallen the world,
> > how would the ancients have dealt with this?
> >
> > Before this life changing event, we were
> discussing Tuteorberg Wald
> > (sp.). My inquiry might tie into that, here is my
> question. There
> > seems, based on my readings, a various scale of
> tragedies that befell
> > Rome. Some that come to mind are:
> >
> > Passing under the Yoke,
> > Defeats like the Tuteroberg Wald/Aurasio and other
> major defeats
> > Breechs in the Frontier
> > Mass killings of Roman Citizens
> > the Sack of Rome in 410/455 ce
> >
> > My questions on this are which were more
> catestrophic in relation to how
> > they affected the average citizen and why?
> >
> > Also, in what realm would this tragedy be rated to
> the ancients? IE.
> > Was the reaction similar to the citizens
> reacations when an army was
> > forced to pass under the yoke? why or why not?
> >
> > This is something I have been wondering for a
> while.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Nothing new |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 22 Sep 2001 16:13:26 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Just a minor correction. By the time the revolts occurred 66ce and the
Bar Kochba revolts. The Hasmonean Dynasty was no longer a player. If I
recall correctly that line died out by the time Herod the Great died.
However, they certainly were not political players after Herod's tenure
of rule.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
mark zona wrote:
>
> Salve quirites!
>
> If I recall my history correctly, Rome and Judah were
> allies during and well afer the selucid wars. When the
> hasmonian dynasty in judah had inner dispute, the
> Roman armies were invited in to help stabilize the
> government, and remained at the request of the
> hasmonian monarchy. All future rebellions by some
> fringe religious groups (the bar kochba rebellion for
> example) were as much against the Hasmonians rulers as
> they were against the Roman occupation. Because the
> Roman and Judean governments were allies, Judaism was
> always treated as an acceptable religion within the
> Roman Empire, and the number of Jews living outside of
> Judea greatly outnumbered the number living within.
> With regard to the galilean sect of Judaism which
> would eventually replace the religio Romana as the
> official religion of Rome, that sect was officially
> considered as a heretical sect of Judaism centuries
> before, and were shunned by main stream Jews.
> The Romans made a strong distinction between the
> practitioners of Judaism that were loyal Romans (the
> majority) and the small fringe religious/political
> zeaolots who rebelled against the Hasmonian rulers and
> the Roman Empire.
> I would imagine that if our Roman forefathers were
> with us today, they would make the same distinction
> between the followers of Islam and the radical islamic
> terrorist groups who plague us today.
> I also imagine, that a modern Roman army would come to
> the aid of its allies and make all out war on those
> terrorist, much like the Roman armies of old came to
> the aid of their ally Judea, and crushed the
> rebellious zealots who would wrestle power from the
> Hasmonian monarchy.
> And I don't believe they would think twice about it.
> Salvete Omnes
> Marcus Antonius Zeno
>
> --- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@-------->
> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > I would like to thank Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > for beginning the thread
> > of "handling crisis". I have also wondered what
> > historical comparisons could
> > be made to current events. In pondering historical
> > comparisons I find myself
> > drawn to considering the history of the Province of
> > Caesaria (Palestine). It
> > seems a case could be made that our current events
> > are a continuation of
> > struggles that have centered on that region for
> > centuries. What lessons can
> > we learn by considering the history of that area and
> > events concerning it?
> > In other words, this is not the first time a
> > superpower has had to deal with
> > problems concerning these geographic areas or
> > concerning fanatical extremist
> > groups (the term "Zealot" and it's origins springs
> > to mind) and their
> > attempts to bring down an people.
> > So, let me ask if others see this kind of
> > similarity. Rome moved into
> > Palestine/Israel/Caesaria and had to deal with
> > fundamentalist extremist
> > groups that worshipped a foreign religion. That
> > group was prosecuted for
> > their political, not religious, beliefs. The
> > religion of the rebels spread
> > and became accepted by a more moderate element of
> > society. Eventually, it
> > became the official religion of the Empire.
> > How much of a reflection of those past events is
> > seen in current events? How
> > possible would a similar outcome be in the future?
> > What lessons can we learn
> > from our forefathers handling of their similar
> > situation?
> > I realize I may have over simplified some very
> > complex issues. My purpose is
> > to try to stimulate discussion of history and
> > specifically Roma. I eagerly
> > await responses.
> >
> > Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> > (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full
> > responsibility)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > procopious@--------
> > ICQ# 83516618
> > *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> > * The Gens Mauricia
> > http://www.geocities.com/procopious
> >
> > "What then? if a good man should see his father or
> > his son under the knife,
> > will he not weep, will he not faint?" But this is
> > the way we see women act
> > whenever they are upset by the slightest suggestion
> > of danger. The good man
> > will perform his duties undisturbed and unafraid;
> > and he will in such a way
> > do all that is worthy of a good man as to do nothing
> > that is unworthy of a
> > man. My father is being murdered - I will defend
> > him; he is slain - I will
> > avenge him, not because I grieve, but because it is
> > my duty" -Seneca
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix"
> > <alexious@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 9:38 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] Inquiry on the handling of
> > crises.
> >
> >
> > > Ave,
> > >
> > > Since Sept. 11, our list has been focused on
> > events that will ultimately
> > > shape our lives in ways we never have thought
> > possible. In the past two
> > > weeks I have seen a variety of responses to the
> > attacks the United
> > > States has faced. However, as Pompeia Cornelia
> > stated in an earlier
> > > post maybe we should start discussing topics that
> > are related to Roma.
> > > Well, I have been thinking since this tragedy has
> > befallen the world,
> > > how would the ancients have dealt with this?
> > >
> > > Before this life changing event, we were
> > discussing Tuteorberg Wald
> > > (sp.). My inquiry might tie into that, here is my
> > question. There
> > > seems, based on my readings, a various scale of
> > tragedies that befell
> > > Rome. Some that come to mind are:
> > >
> > > Passing under the Yoke,
> > > Defeats like the Tuteroberg Wald/Aurasio and other
> > major defeats
> > > Breechs in the Frontier
> > > Mass killings of Roman Citizens
> > > the Sack of Rome in 410/455 ce
> > >
> > > My questions on this are which were more
> > catestrophic in relation to how
> > > they affected the average citizen and why?
> > >
> > > Also, in what realm would this tragedy be rated to
> > the ancients? IE.
> > > Was the reaction similar to the citizens
> > reacations when an army was
> > > forced to pass under the yoke? why or why not?
> > >
> > > This is something I have been wondering for a
> > while.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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