Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Iusurando
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:18:25 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites.

Titus Minicius Marianus, a cives of Hispania, has prepared a
translation of our oath of office to Latin. I thought it would be a
good idea to post it here, on the main list; for I think that an oath
in Latin would probably be more "Roman" than one in English (both could
be simultaneously used, IMHO).

The original English text can be found at:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html

---------------------------------------------------
Ego, (praenomen, nomen, cognomen et nomen barbarum) hoc ipso facto
sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae Romae
Populo atque Senatu agere.
Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego............... Romae deos deasque colere

IVRO in omnibus publicae vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et
publica et privata vita persequi.
Ego......... Romanam religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae

Reipublicae religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae
religionis aliquid detrimenti capiat.
Praeterea ego.......... IVRO quam optime fungi officium muneris (the
office in genitive).
Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque deabus
et eorum voluntate et favore, munus (office in genitive) ACCIPIO una
cum iuribus, privilegiis. munera atque officia quae meum munus
comportat.
In (your Province, city or similar)(date) anno MMDCCLIV ab Vrbe
condita.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Iusurando
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:26:33 -0000

--- Salvete Gnae Salix et alii:

My thanks to you for posting, and to Titus Minicius for the
translation. Actually long overdue, given we are in our fourth year
of Nova Roma's existance.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> Titus Minicius Marianus, a cives of Hispania, has prepared a
> translation of our oath of office to Latin. I thought it would be a
> good idea to post it here, on the main list; for I think that an
oath
> in Latin would probably be more "Roman" than one in English (both
could
> be simultaneously used, IMHO).
>
> The original English text can be found at:
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Ego, (praenomen, nomen, cognomen et nomen barbarum) hoc ipso facto
> sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
Romae
> Populo atque Senatu agere.
> Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego............... Romae deos deasque
colere
>
> IVRO in omnibus publicae vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et
> publica et privata vita persequi.
> Ego......... Romanam religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae
Romae
>
> Reipublicae religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae
> religionis aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> Praeterea ego.......... IVRO quam optime fungi officium muneris (the
> office in genitive).
> Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
deabus
> et eorum voluntate et favore, munus (office in genitive) ACCIPIO una
> cum iuribus, privilegiis. munera atque officia quae meum munus
> comportat.
> In (your Province, city or similar)(date) anno MMDCCLIV ab Vrbe
> condita.
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Apology, (was One Canadian's Reaction)
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 02:44:32 -0000

---
Salvete Procurator Cato et alii:

First off, let me reiterate that this whole incident of Sept. 11 has
made me sick at heart, angry, helpless of feeling, and the whole lot.
As Cato has indicated, he feels this way too.

I received my Nursing Degree at an American University. I have many
American friends, and a few relatives.

Cato, I have a few comments to make on your post. I hope you will
accept these as merely expanding on your post. I am in no way
demeaning your opinion or your sentiment toward the evil people who
did these grizzly deeds. However, I feel I must digress on a couple
of things for the benefit of those American civites who may not fully
understand our Canadian system. This is in good faith. My comments
follow:

In novaroma@--------, "Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites: I can believe that we were simply overlooked
because the American government is so comfortable with living in peace
with us next door to them. Having been friends since the end of the
War of 1812, and the fact that we are so much alike may have a great
deal to do with Bush forgetting to mention us. I am sure he
appreciates the assistance of the Canadian people.

Pompeia: Collin Powell has subsequently made this clear, and I
appreciate the reassurrence that this is no disproportionate anger
toward the Canadian people on the part of George Bush.

> But something else occurred to me as well. During the
Presidential elections, Prime Minister Jean Chretien made perfectly
clear that he hoped Al Gore would win the election and become
President. Chretien has no love for President Bush, and Bush knows it.
Chretien liked Al Gore because their political philosophical beliefs
are a lot closer then Chretien and Bush's. I am sure that Bush hasn't
forgotten.

Pompeia: Did he say verbatim he had no personal regard for President
Bush, or did he simply endorse the Democratic candidate because
Chretien and in this case, Al Gore, would be more philosophically
compatable. This is common knowledge that our Liberals are more
Equitable to the U.S. Democrates, and our Conservatives seem to jive
better with American Republicanism. Their ideas and ideal are often
quite correspondent. It is not inappropriate for a Canadian
Primeminister to want to deal with a U.S. President he will get on the
best with. I "hope" that GWB is not stewing over small stuff like
this; personally, I doubt it. I know Jean Chretien is no Pierre
Elliot Trudeau in terms of eloquence and statesmanship, but such a
sentiment is only natural. I am sure the President himself has those
he would rather see in office in a given foreign country, on the basis
that he can deal with a potential leader better than his political
rival.

> Also earlier this week, our great Prime Minister, Jean Chretien
stated the he wasn't aware of any terrorist cells operating in Canada.
Either he is a total idiot, (The average Canadian is well aware that
we have terrorist cells working here), or he is trying to win the gold
medal for lying.

Pompeia: Must have been on shift when he said this, but I agree, it
is a ridiculous statement. Won't be the first, won't be the last :)
It is like saying their are no dandelions in Canada. Like Terrorist
affilitates, dandes are the world over, and they have infiltrated this
continent: Canada, U.S., and I have no reason not to believe Mexico. I
will let Mr. Chretien defend himself. What *I* see in this statement
is that they are here, but they are not actively practising terrorism
in Canada, to the point where we can pin anything illegal on them.
And if we could, as in countless other examples, they would be
deported and/or extradicted to the country who had crime beefs with
them.
A poorly phrased statement on Chretien's part, but I do not want our
American friends to believe that nothing within Canadian law was done.

The R.C.M.P can "know" about certain people, even their names, as can
the FBI, but if they don't have anything "on them", all they can do is
watch them. Probably why nothing too much was done. And it is the
federal police's venue to investigate this stuff. They probably did
inform the primeminister of their existence, but that does not prove
that they were active beyond fund raising, which has been recently
addressed by virtue of tightened laws.

It seems to me that the FBI and the R.C.M.P. cooperate more intimately
with Canadian and U.S. criminal arrests than the FBI with the CIA, and
from what I've read, the State Police. President Bush, has of late
made all of these agencies account to a presidential rep, who will
account to him.

Let me give you all an illustration of how closely the FBI and our
police operate. Three years ago a woman was brutally beaten to death
in her home here in this small town of Sault Ste. Marie. They
arrested a man just recently out of Calgary. The arrest was partly
due to Psych profiling and consultation from the FBI. An even
superficial glimpse at our newspapers gives accounts of the FBI
assisting Canada with drug busts, etc., and vice versa. My point?
Oh, yes, my point :) If they cooperate with affairs in a rinkydink
town like the Sault, they are surely making each other aware of their
respective "shoddies", to wit, those bearing observation, who might
cross the border one way or the other.

I am sure you can appreciate that Canada has a Charter of Rights and a
Criminal Code, which entitles persons (even if we don't think they are
here in good faith) to fairness of treatment and trial. Innocent
until proven guilty. We cannot arbitrarily deport people on
suspicions or 'maybe mights". Can you imagine? We'd have the UN,
Amnesty International, and in this case the Muslim Countries down our
necks for unrightful treatment of immigrants based on discrimination,
and in some cases, shoddy treatment of Canadian citizens.

We cannot arbitrarily break into people's homes and demand the right
to search without some evidence that there is cause to search. The
last time that was done on a national scale was when the War Measures
Act was implemented during the FLQ crisis in Quebec in the early
'70's. But, these guys were more that suspect; they murdered Pierre
Laport (can't remember what job he did), and kidnapped British
Ambassador James Cross. This was an ACTIVE terrorist regime.

I am sure that President Bush is shocked at the
statements and words coming out of Chretien's mouth. I know for a fact
that a lot of my fellow Canadians are sickened by some of the
statements coming from Chretien and his cabinent members lately.
(especially the Immigration Minister).

Pompeia: Yes, some interesting verbage, indeed.

> The R.C.M.P. and theC.S.I.S., our version of the C.I.A., and
other intelligence agencies around the world including the C.I.A.made
perfectly clear to the Canadian government and the media, several
years ago, and again quite recently, that we have terrorist cells in
Canada, including Islamic Jihad, and Hammas, and even El Queida, along
with the I.R.A. and Tamil groups, who raise money for their causes
back home. Some, including Hammas and Islamic Jihad even have
charitable status for tax purposes and one of them at least, I believe
Islamic Jihad, even ran a web site in Canada to support their cause.
UNBELIEVABLE!!! The government is now looking at withdrawing their
charitable status. Oh boy!!.

Pompeia: Again, you can know their names, but if you "have nothing on
them", then all you can do is open a file on them watch them. The
fact that their charitable status is taken away is a chuckle in that,
superficially, it is a thin action, but if people stop donating to
them because they can't get a write-off, rendering these factions,
"awareness groups", whathaveyou, to Koolaide stands and bake sales,
they might be less likely to pitch their tents in Canada to make
money.

Consider that say, Mr. Porco, is a well-known maffia man by the RCMP.
Being a member of the maffia is not a crime (it can't be, trust me
:); it is not in contravention of the Criminal Code of Canada. What
else can the feds do, the primeminister, you or me do, but watch him?
Darned especially if he's a Canadian citizen.

Same for America. If you can't pin anything illegal on people, they
cannot arbitrarily be stipped of their citizenship, their inalienable
rights, because you "suspect" anything.

The Muslims who danced in the streets of Brooklyn and Jersey the night
of the 11th have "certain inalienable rights" too, under the U.S.
constitution (assuming some of them were citizens). Quite a slap in
the face for the average American who pursues a virtuous life and the
American Dream. But that is the cold reality, which makes this
situation more complex that one might assume.

This continent as a whole needs to tighten security; we need to
prescreen immigrants more carefully, and we all need to do what we can
to smite the network of terrorism, so we can get on with out lives.

I thank you for your time. And as sorry as I am that all this
happened, the R.C.M.P. is an efficient agency, and the primeminister's
role has little to do with it, if the suspects in question are only
suspects. Even if he makes ridiculous statements from time to time.

Is Canada and her government perfect? Nope. But I am sure that if
charges could have been laid against these men in question, or if
there was a way to boot them out, it would have been done. I will
believe that until I receive proof beyond reasonable doubt to the
contrary. They have booted people out before.

With respect to you Cato, I just wanted to expand on your post, giving
some more detailed insight into Canada's position, as I see it.

And I don't want the United States to believe that we were
disproportionately negligent, for reasons I have suggested above. As
with Cato, your friendship is important to me, as is your welfare.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

> I am sure that President bush and his Cabinent look at these
things up here in Canada, and wonder what is in the water that our
Canadian leaders are drinking. Or perhaps its something in the air in
Ottawa that they breathe. They certainly don't reflect what the
average Canadian thinks.
> From this Canadian, I offer sincere apologies to the victims,
for the words, and lack of action of our leaders here in Canada.

Pompeia: Chretien has, well unless he's a REAL liar, has been in
communication with GWB several times. Collin Powell and John Manley
met last Thursday. Chretien and Bush are to meet tomorrow. Lack of
action, or calculated action? As I stated in a prior post, we do not
have the army the Brits or the Americans do. It would be rather silly
of us to rush in head first to do battle as a secondary military
force, without first assessing how best we could utilize our Military
for the good of the entire cause. Our military has been on standby
for several days.........so Canada obviously anticipates use of same.
> Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
> Rogator, Novae Romae
> Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Nationalism (was Re: [novaroma] European Reaction)
From:	Tal123berg@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 02:37:26 -0000

> > The third world will NOT solve it's problems until it realizes
that
> > most of it's problems are internal, not external. Sending large
> > ammounts of aid most of which will end up in some tin horn tyrants
> > bank account is not going to solve any problems.
> >
>
> Totally agreed, charity is never a solution. The "aid" mostly
serves to
> stabilize the tyrants which were for a long time supported because
they
> were
> anti-communist.
> Solidarity would help: stopping to manipulate the commodities
market and
> the international currency market. Oppening the borders to 3rd world
> products
> (not only commodities).
>
> Not linking the FMI loans to anti-social local politics wich are
just
> turning the countries more disequal.
>

Let me inform you that Bi- and Multilateral Institutions like DFID,
World Bank and Asian Development Bank have already shifted their
focus towards achieving the International Development Goals
identified by the United Nations (www.developmentgoals.org) with
poverty alleviation being the overarching goal (at least for ADB).

In the developing world there is a need for financing infrastructure
and other important areas which is so high as being almost impossible
to express in numbers. Assistance by the developed world for these
developing countries (at best on a performance based level) will be
necessary for quite some time to come and it is and should by no
means be "charity". Most of the loans given to Developing Countries
by World Bank and other IFIs btw are not exactly "aid" (meaning
grants) dished out by OECD countries but loans that are refinanced by
the IFIs on the international financial markets (the developing
countries pay interest for the loans at general market conditions;
this "favorable treatment" is made possible by the Triple A rating of
the IFIs which stems from government guarantees of OECD countries
backing them and thereby making it possible to channel "cheap" funds
to the developing countries).

About solidarity: In February 2001 The EU passed the "Anything but
arms" initiative. This initiative will allow 48 of the world's
poorest countries tariff-free access to the EU markets for all
products with the exception of arms. In March 2001, duties and quotas
were eliminated for most products (with the exception of sugar, rice,
and bananas). All other tariffs and quotas will be eliminated by
2005. I am not aware of a similar action by the US.

Having said this, my bank has among its members Afghanistan, Pakistan
and the Central Asian Republics. All of them will most probably be
gravely afected by any offensive action the US will take (be it by
refugee flows or direct combat damage). A thoughtful approach (not
merely based on blind revenge) by all countries involved is highly
welcome by those who will have to rebuild what is left after the
damage is done. So far the US and its Secretary of State have done a
good job in my opinion. I dearly hope it can stay that way.

Marcus Heinz (Marcus Marcius Rex)
Asian Development Bank, Manila, Philippines


Subject:	Nationalism (was Re: [novaroma] European Reaction)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:06:35 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:
> Drusus,
>
> WE in the 50s & 60s backed some horrendous tyrants JUST because they
had no socialist ties. Read "The Ugly American" - its based on sad
fact. That's what Draco is talking about no doubt. Oh, & I am an
American and am NOT 18.

I'm an old fart, so I do recall some of the tyrants we supported. It
used to outrage me to see the 2 color maps that showed the communists
and the "free world", with our tame dictatorships included in the
"free world". I also recall some of the tyrants the USSR supported.

>
> Also, American (actually multinational now) corporations have
perpetrated some terrible injustices on the poorer nations. All in
the name of profit. The latest atrocity is to refuse to manufacture
drugs against maleria and other diseases since its not profitable -
after all only the poorest countries still have problems with these
diseases. Never mind how many people die each year.

Are you willing to pay the cost, and I do mean you, not forcing the
cost on others.
>
> Also, Gore got the majority vote in the election last fall. So I
guess the majority of Americans did NOT want Dubya in office. Fact.

Not a Majority, a pluarity. Nader, Buchanon, and Browne each recived
more votes than the differance betweem Gore & Bush. Not that it
matters. The US President is elected by the states, NOT by the people.
The states aren't even required to let you vote for the president.
They have the power to select the electors by any means they choose,
by having the legslature pick them or even by holding a beer drinking
contest between the canidates.
>
> It worries me a lot - seeing this Love it or Leave it attitude raise
its ugly head again in the aftermath of this tragedy. I fought
against this as a teenager & I naively thought that we'd grown away
from such a simple-minded attitude.

A large part of that attitude was the manner the Viet Nam war was
protested. Flag Burning for example.

Drusus
>
> Helena Galeria
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Nationalism (was Re: [novaroma] European Reaction)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 05:09:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Cable" <hendrik.meuleman@p...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Every day, thousands are starving due to ex-colonial systems,
> > heritages of
> > > the cold war. Every day, thousands are being killed every day in
armed
> > > conflicts, with arms supplied by the rich world. Every day,
millions of
> > > children work 15 hours a day in sweatshops in terrible conditions to
> > comply
> > > the demands of the capitalist world. Every day, human beings like
> > you and I
> > > are being murdered or broken because of the convictions they hold,
> > while the
> > > western world is well aware of this.
> > > Can you sleep at night?
> >
> > DRUSUS: I sleep very well at night, colonialism has NOTHING to do with
> > any starvation, the corrupt goverments in SOME former colonies that
> > have made living standards LOWER than they were in the colonial era
> > have caused problems. Arms don't cause conflicts, people do and these
> > conflicts are usualy between two gangs of looters who are fighting to
> > rape the area.
>
> Selling the arms _allows_ the conflict, it does not cause it. (Even if
> I must aknowledge that the conflict would still happen with knifes and
> spears, it would be perhaps less deadly).

DRUSUS: Or Machates. That was the weapon of choice during the Genocide
in Rwanda, the deadliest conflict since the killing fields in Cambodia.

>
> > The people in these areas WELCOME the sweetshops
> > because they are ALLREADY working 12-15 hour days for less money than
> > the western companies pay, thanks to the governments having looted the
> > nation.
>
> Most of those countries could have been in Capital accumulation phase
> for some 50 years now. Western neo-colonialism prevented this by
> draining the capital
> to the western countries and still imposing a capitalistic form of
> economy.
> This equation cannot work. In order for capitalism to produce common
> wealth
> there must be some local capital, without it this is just exploration.

DRUSUS: The Corparations don't steal goods and services, they pay for
them, and corrupt officals steal much of that. Another problem is laws
that limit how much of a company can be foriegn owned. A company might
be willing to put up the cost of starting a company, but there is no
local capital for the remaining costs, and a company would be very
foolish to pay 100% of the cost for 25% of the company. These nations
would be better off if they allowed total foriegn ownership at the
start, with Taxes being paid in the form of a portion of the stock in
the company, either the local branch or the multinational itself. This
way the locals would gradualy gain control of the company over an
agreed apon number of years or shares in a multinational company. Of
course there have to be safegaurds in place to keep corrupt local
officals from stealing the stock.

>
> >
> > The third world will NOT solve it's problems until it realizes that
> > most of it's problems are internal, not external. Sending large
> > ammounts of aid most of which will end up in some tin horn tyrants
> > bank account is not going to solve any problems.
> >
>
> Totally agreed, charity is never a solution. The "aid" mostly serves to
> stabilize the tyrants which were for a long time supported because they
> were
> anti-communist.
> Solidarity would help: stopping to manipulate the commodities market and
> the international currency market. Oppening the borders to 3rd world
> products
> (not only commodities).

DRUSUS: Of the two major US Partys the Republicans tend to favor
opening markets, while the Democrats tend to favor keeping them closed
to protect American Jobs.

>
> Not linking the FMI loans to anti-social local politics wich are just
> turning the countries more disequal.
>
> > >
> > > When Bush was elected, the US was the laughing stock of the rest
of the
> > > world. I hope you realize this. And as I have said before, what I
> > think of
> > > your president has nothing to do with the sympathy I feel for the
> > victims of
> > > the tragedy. I'll say it again: human suffering goes above and
beyond
> > > everything. But that does not mean that it has to be so black/white
> > as you
> > > portray it. It will only add to the polarization of the world.
> >
> > DRUSUS: To be blunt, most of us don't give a damn what the rest of the
> > world thinks of our leader. The Democratic party nominated the
> > shallowest excuse for a human being I've ever seen, and tried to get
> > him elected by pushing a package of lies regarding the intelegence of
> > the Republican canidate. You are making a judgement based on those
> > lies. Are you aware that the "laughing stock" has degrees from TWO of
> > the most prestigous universities in America, while his allegdly
> > smarter opponent flunked out of Journalism school a far easier course
> > than the MBA the president holds.
> >
>
> Not sure what Draco meant, here down it is the way he was elected that
> was the reason for laugh, strange democracy yours.

DRUSUS:It's based on the Roman system for chosing the Consuls, with
the states taking the place of the Centurys. We don't have one big
election, we have 51 little ones to decide how the States will cast
their votes.

> Bush does not seem stupid but he really lacks basic knowledge in
> geography and
> geopolitics, lack of knowledge he shares with a lot a financial wizards
> which
> can badly influence whole markets because they mix up 2 countries with
> little
> in common for instance.

DRUSUS: Bush has a bad case of stagefrieght. Put him on Camera and he
screws up most of the time (I was surprised how well he handled hi
speech to congress)
>
> > I make a point of staying OUT of the internal affairs of other
> > Macronations, and have NEVER made a public comment advising others on
> > who to select, and expect the same courtsey from others. As far as I'm
> > concerned NonAmerican citizens have three choices. Ask your
> > Macronation to apply to the US government for admission as a state,
> > Move to the USA and apply for US citizenship, or shut up.
> >
>
> When the USA are about to start WWIII the whole world is implied and
> is invited to speak, wasn t this your argument in your letter to Bush
> etc. ?
>
> > "human suffering goes above and beyond everything" is a black and
> > white statement, and a VERY black one. Most of the conflicts in the
> > world today stem from the idea that one groups "suffering" gives them
> > a blank check to do whatever they wish to releave their "suffering"
>
> Agreed and that is exactly why a lot of people are against any
> intervention
> against Afghanistan : The USA suffering does not allow them to make
> the Afghans suffer.
>
> Some numbers from latin-america against retaliation:
> Brasil: 79% against
> Mexico: 78% against
> Argentine: 77% against
> (Source : Folha de SP 22/09/01)
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] America
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 03:35:32 -0400 (EDT)

Mistress Maximina Octavia;

I am impressed with your statements and forthrightness. It is my
fondest hope that all foriegn aid that is now going out to a large
number of countries in the world, will be critically reviewed. Those
countries who do not support the U.S., I believe that foriegn aid
support to those countries should be diverted in it's entirity, to the
fight on terrorism. I have not heard of any such action, and I believe
it should be immediately undertaken. It should be obvious to all
western nations that this terrorist threat is directed to all, not just
the U.S. The murder of large number of foriegn citizens in New York was
a deliberate statement, and one which should be recognized by all
thinking people everywhere in the Western World.

I am told, or was told some years ago, that the only country who has
repaid the loans made to them after WWII was Finland. At this late date
I don't suppose it matters much, but, it would seem that those countries
(and their citizens) whom we have sent money, supplies, aid,
intelligence, and support might give some thought to willingly assisting
in an effort which is for all the world, not just for the U.S.
Terrorist attacks in other countries with the apparent willingness to
kill, maim and destroy people of like faith and culture, as well as
those who are of a different belief should certainly speak as a warning
to all.

I fully understand the basis of these terrorists and where they come
from. At the turn of the century, there was another such fanatic who
rose to the top of the ladder near Kartounm (spelling??) in the Sudan.
He and his followers at that time directed their efforts against England
and to a lesser extent Egypt. They destroyed the Army of General "Hicks
Pasha" and ultimately overran Kartounm, killed General "Chinese" Gorden,
who had organized the defense of Kartoumn, and were in time finally
defeated by the British Army, an action which was reported by a young
Winston Churchill.

In the following years it was passed among many of the believers of
Islam, in that area, that another would rise from the desert dwellers
and again lead those of Islam (or those who believe as do some in Islam
of the complete religious unsuitability of the western religions and
cultures) to a victory against the West. It was a larger world then,
and there were vast areas, that were seen as useless, where many of the
followers of Islam dwelt. Today the world is much smaller with hidden
treasures in those same vast lands that today are as precious as gold
was at that time, with all that entails in the greedy human animal.

In 1842, the remnants of the British Army of the Indus were completely
distroyed at Ganadamack (First Afghan War) on the road from Kabul to
Jalalabad after having been invited to come to Afghanistan as an
occupying force as described in the book "The Fierce Pawns" authored by
Macrory. This army was a combined force of the Queen's Regiments and the
Company (Honorable East India Company) and most of the soldiers were
presumably Muslims.

Compared to those stories is the book "Seven Pillers of Wisdom" written
by a former Colonel of the British Army, who during WWI fought as a
leader of Arab forces against the Axis powers, and was accepted by them,
even to the extent of Prince Fisal and the the ruling family of Saudi
Arabia. Those Arabs who came to this Englishman's banner were certainly
Islamic in religion and honored this man greatly for his leadership, and
his concern for them, even though he was not of thier faith.

Just lately there have been Americans who have acted with the home
forces of Afghanistan as advisors against the Russian Invasion, and
provided weapons, supplies and support until the Russians left the
country.

I understand that in all of these cases, a war footing was paramount,
and desperation against a strong enemy was the creation of a time of
special needs, but I would be interested to know how Islam and it's
teachings could be so broad in it's interpretation, as to allow such
wide and contradictory beliefs as with the above items mentioned, within
it's adherents, and the present terrorist problem which draws apparent
strength and support from Islam in some, quarters, manner and degree. I
have some little knowledge of the about the above items having been
interested in all of them as a mlitary historian (by avocation only), as
well as havng read the Koran, and for a time considering immersing
myself within the belief. It was, in fact, the idea of "jihad" that
finally moved me not to embrace that religion further, in my early
search for a faith in which I felt at home, and one in which I could
believe.

I do not for one moment deny that these people have a strong belief in
what they do, and what they believe to be necessary for the final goals
in thier life. I have heard from those who are strong adherents of
Islam and holy men within that belief indicate that these terrorist
ideas are NOT in the realm of Islam, and yet the beliefs of those who
have died, and the attempts of those who have attempted to do so and
have failed, is I believe not to be disregarded as mere foolishness.
Thousands of thier fellow citizens believe strongly in what they are
doing, and how they are doing it. Why???? I have seen apparently good
men who are hard-working, intelligent, caring and properoous people in
Islamic countries support these tactics fully. Again I ask why, and
what has brought these people to such a basic disagreement within such a
peaceful religion.

Nor am I ignorant of the past history of the Christain adherents, whose
hands have been stained with the blood of people of thier own faith
(Jeruselum-Crusades, just one example) and many others. However, I am
attempting to define rather than criticize the actions and the ideals
which drive some to such opposite concepts.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Canada and Mexico
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 05:28:59 -0400 (EDT)

Beneficarius Pompeia Strabo;

Well, In regard to what the President said, I don't recall his
mentioning Mexico either. Both Canada and Mexico have common boundaries
with the U.S., and are considered very good friends as far as I am
concerned (cannot and do not wish to appear to speak for the President).

I personally endorse the idea that both Mexico and Canada are not only
friends but are international allies and affiliates of the first class,
joining with England in that respect. I have been able to travel
extensively in all three countries and have enjoyed the hospitality of
those country's military hugely, as well as the civilian population.

I had the pleasure to be part of the crew who turned over the first
submarine to the Canadian Navy. It was named "Grilse" and it was a
pleasure for me to work closely with the Candadian Navy personnel, and
they in turn indicated how pleased they were that we let them do
"hands-on stuff" with the boat. Apparently the English "T" Boats that
they had been training on, did not allow them hands on activities, or at
least so I was told. Both the Canadian and British Navy were
outstanding hosts and our stay in Canada while relatively short, was in
fact most satisfying. Later trips to Halifax, Quebec, Montreal,
Louisburg, Niagra Falls, around the Gaspe' Peninsula and Victoria (for
the 30th Wedding Anniversary at the Victoria Hotel) were all very
enjoyable where I went as a civilian. I have also very fond memories of
a vacation (two weeks) into Canada in my early years, to Moosehead Lake,
and crossing Lake Huron on the car ferry. Both my parents related for
years afterward how impressed they were with the hospitality offered by
the Canadians that we met on that trip. Later trips of my own confirmed
those feelings.

My trips into Mexico have also been most enjoyable and informative,
Mexico City, Acapulco, Cuidad Juarez, Mexicali, Ensenada, Cabo San
Lucas, Zihuatanejo, archaelogical trip into the Sonoran Desert and a
trip down the Western Coast of the Country. The Military was a great
host, and I even learned a few words of the Naval local Spanish, Great
times!!

So, my friend, while I will not assume to correct my President, no
matter what other neo-political views are about him, He is my President,
and the Commander In Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. As
a military retiree such will always be the case, in my view. I have
endured the embarassment of Clinton with no comment, and I am relieved
to have such a man of character to now be in the Whte House. As it was
so well expressed by another on this list, the President has been
elected, in this country by our system. I do not criticize other
countries for thier methods and I do not expect criticism of mine from
those who are not U.S. Citizens on this list. Some Americans chose to
Object to the decisions of America in the last few decades, as is their
right to do, and I chose to serve my country as is my right to do,
because I am a citizen here. Others who are not, might consider living
in America before you criticize her.

In closing, Pompeia, I have always thought of Canada and Mexico as
international brothers, as well as England. Other countries who have
evidenced an appreciation of what we do, and who we are, I consider good
friends, but I know more about those three than any other except perhaps
Spain. When I lived in Spain it was under the rule of a Dictator, who
later turned the country over to the Prince who became King. The
Monarchy was just proclaimed as I was transferred. I percieved that
that action was greeted by favor from the majority of the Spanish
people. I had the pleasure of meeting the King and Queen, before thier
inauguration, and escorting them through an American Submarine and the
ship on which I was stationed as well (USS Holland) at the Spanish Naval
Base in Rota, Spain. During the time I was there, the Spanish Military
bent over backward to show us the hospitality of the country. We met
the officers in thier clubs, and I had tthe opportunity and pleasure to
live on the economy there, off-base in a Spanish House, within a Spanish
Community. As a military officer, I was treated with the utmost respect
by the Guardia Civil (Civil Guard), and called on them for assistance on
several occasions interceding for U.S. military personnel, with
immediate response, and the maxmum of effort. It was simply great!!!

Finally, my association with you, in the past couple of years has been
extremely satisfying to me personnally, and very supportive of the
Militarium in whch we both serve. All of the above is trying to say, in
a very roundabout way, how much I as an individual have appreciated
Canada and her people, offerings, beauty and hospitality, as well as my
expriences in other countries, both as a civilian and as a military
person, and further I say that all of my shipmates in "Grilse", and
those reenactors who went with me to Canada (Louisberg) in 1995 have
reflected my pleasure at your excelent recieving and care of us while we
were there!!!! Were I not wedded to my country by both birth and
extreme affection, I would seriously consider livng in Canada, and in
any case, I take every opportunity to renew my aquaintance with her out
of affection for the people and in anticpation of her sweeping beauty.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: America
From:	Tal123berg@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:34:35 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
>
> I am told, or was told some years ago, that the only country who has
> repaid the loans made to them after WWII was Finland. At this late
date
> I don't suppose it matters much, but, it would seem that those
countries
> (and their citizens) whom we have sent money, supplies, aid,
> intelligence, and support might give some thought to willingly
assisting
> in an effort which is for all the world, not just for the U.S.
> Terrorist attacks in other countries with the apparent willingness
to
> kill, maim and destroy people of like faith and culture, as well as
> those who are of a different belief should certainly speak as a
warning
> to all.
>

Dear Sir,

just a few data about the Marshall Plan after WWII you are obviously
referring to above: All loans indicated in the table (the third
figure in each line) have been paid back. The grant money itself most
of the time had to be used as a revolving credit facility for the
respective ailing economies and was under US control. Even today in
Germany and Austria, two large Funds (still partly under US control
and governed by bilateral agreements) exist, which - apart from
giving credits to local companies - also give grant money for
development purposes.

Economic Assistance, April 3, 1948 to June 30, 1952
(in millions of dollars)

Total for all countries $13,325.8 Grants: $11,820.7 Loans $1,505.1

COUNTRY Total Grants Loans
Austria 677.8 677.8 --
Belgium-Luxembourg 559.3 491.3 68.0a
Denmark 273.0 239.7 33.3
France 2,713.6 2,488.0 225.6
Germany, Federal Republic of 1,390.6 1,173.7 216.9b
Greece 706.7 706.7 --
Iceland 29.3 24.0 5.3
Ireland 147.5 19.3 128.2
Italy (including Trieste) 1,508.8 1,413.2 95.6
Netherlands (*East Indies)c 1,083.5 916.8 166.7
Norway 255.3 216.1 39.2
Portugal 51.2 15.1 36.1
Sweden 107.3 86.9 20.4
Turkey 225.1 140.1 85.0
United Kingdom 3,189.8 2,805.0 384.8

Regional 407.0d 407.0d --

Notes:

Loan total includes $65.0 million for Belgium and $3.0 million for
Luxembourg: grant detail between the two countries cannot be
identified.

Includes an original loan figure of $16.9 million, plus $200.0
million representing a pro-rated share of grants converted to loans
under an agreement signed February 27, 1953.

Marshall Plan aid to the Netherlands East Indies (now Indonesia) was
extended through the Netherlands prior to transfer of sovereignty on
December 30, 1949. The aid totals for the Netherlands East Indies are
as follows:
Total $101.4 million, Grants $84.2 million, Loans $17.2 million.

Includes U.S. contribution to the European Payments Union (EPU)
capital fund, $361.4 million; General Freight Account, $33.5 million;
and European Technical Assistance Authorizations (multi-country or
regional), $12.1 million.

It is also noteworthy that the US is one of the smallest contributors
of aid to other countries when measured against its GDP. While many
European countries give up to 1% of their GDP in development aid, the
US is closer to 0,2%, and that only if the US Congress is in a good
mood and releases the money.

With the highest respect

Marcus Heinz (Marcus Marcius Rex)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] European Reaction
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:00:53 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Tiberius,
Thank you for your message. It appears to me that you
certainly have meant no disrespect. I appreaciate
your coming forth to ake this known.
As for racism, I am certainly the last person in the
world to be racist. My husband happens to be Chinese
and my grandmother was Spanish.
I love people of every background and race. There are
good people in all lands. I also love my country as
you do yours.
Thanks again for your kindness.
Ave, Maximina
--- tiberius.ann@-------- wrote:
> Salve Maximina Octavia,
>
> I have also written something on this topic and I
> want to appologize if
> you have understood my message in the way you
> descibe below. I for my part
> do not have any harsh feelings against the US, even
> if it could be believed
> from what I ahve written. I know many people in the
> US, spent (only) a few
> years in an american school and learned to love the
> freedom in the US. Switzerland
> is also a free country, but there are many ways of
> freedom in the US which
> don't exist in Switzerland.
>
> I want to thank you for your message below and
> assure you that at least
> for me it is not too US patriotic. I myself love
> patriotism very much, as
> long as it does not move into racism, which does
> clearly NOT do in your
> message.
>
> Cura ut valeas, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
>
> -- Original-Nachricht --
>
> >
> >Ave Omnes,
> >
> >This may be more forthright than some of you will
> >like.
> >
> >This message is primarily for those who have spent
> no
> >time or a mere few years in the United States and
> >presume to judge America and her motives.
> >
> >I have read nearly all the messages and I want to
> give
> >my heartfelt thanks to those who have sought to
> >support the U.S. instead of criticize.
> >
> >I can no longer sit by and tolerate some of these
> >messages when most Americans are still hurting.
> You
> >are adding insult to injury and I wonder how you
> can
> >sleep at night.
> >
> >Some of you have made presumptuous and harsh
> >statements regarding the United States and some of
> you
> >choose to just whine.
> >
> >Making these kinds of statements when the U.S. and
> the
> >world have just suffered this terrible tragedy is
> >unconscionable. Some of the statments are petty
> and
> >very inappropriate.
> >
> >When Bush said you stand with us or against us, he
> >meant standing against terrorist attacks on
> innocent
> >civilians. Yet, some of you seem to want to read
> into
> >this statement something sinister. Maybe you
> should
> >examine your own projections and motives.
> >
> >To others,you know who you are:
> >Others have said how selfish the United States is
> and
> >others proclaim that we neglect our homeland. It
> is
> >very sad that you should perceive us this way.
> Could
> >it be that you are receiving information from
> sources
> >who have their own agenda against the U.S.?
> >
> >Just like the people that are constantly
> criticizing
> >the Nova Roma government and it's officials,
> everybody
> >thinks they can do it better.
> >
> >How much in money and lives have you or your
> >government offered to feed the starving, offer
> medical
> >relief and even offered to help those people and
> >countries fighting for freedom?
> >How much money or time has your country or you
> offered
> >in the war on drugs?
> >
> >Most of you have no clue what our country is about
> so
> >please knock it off. We do not need your whining
> and
> >criticisms. And, what does it say about you that
> you
> >take this time of the lowest of emotional lows of
> the
> >American people to vent your criticisms?
> >
> >I am very proud to be a citizen of the United
> States.
> >I have been a citizen for over 50 years. NO
> >government or its people is perfect includings
> yours.
> >
> >I have had every opportunity to make a living, get
> a
> >good education, work for decent wages, enjoy peace
> and
> >security and have the freedom of self expression
> that
> >some only dream about.
> >If this declaration is too saccharin, too patriotic
> or
> >too sentimental for you or you just plain disagree.
> > Too Bad!
> >
> >Maximina Octavia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered
> by Bluewin!
>
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: Nationalism (was Re: [novaroma] European Reaction)
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:03:38 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Draco,
So throw me out.
You were certainly the furthest person from my mind
when I wrote my message.
However, in light of this message, it is good to know
where you stand.
Yes, terrorism is off topic. Sorry to offend you.
Ave, Maximina

--- Cable <hendrik.meuleman@--------> wrote:
> Salve Maximina,
>
> >
> > This may be more forthright than some of you will
> > like.
> >
> > This message is primarily for those who have spent
> no
> > time or a mere few years in the United States and
> > presume to judge America and her motives.
> >
> > I have read nearly all the messages and I want to
> give
> > my heartfelt thanks to those who have sought to
> > support the U.S. instead of criticize.
> >
>
> How about this... support AND criticism? What's
> wrong with that?
>
> > I can no longer sit by and tolerate some of these
> > messages when most Americans are still hurting.
> You
> > are adding insult to injury and I wonder how you
> can
> > sleep at night.
> >
>
> Every day, thousands are starving due to ex-colonial
> systems, heritages of
> the cold war. Every day, thousands are being killed
> every day in armed
> conflicts, with arms supplied by the rich world.
> Every day, millions of
> children work 15 hours a day in sweatshops in
> terrible conditions to comply
> the demands of the capitalist world. Every day,
> human beings like you and I
> are being murdered or broken because of the
> convictions they hold, while the
> western world is well aware of this.
> Can you sleep at night?
>
> > Some of you have made presumptuous and harsh
> > statements regarding the United States and some of
> you
> > choose to just whine.
> >
> > Making these kinds of statements when the U.S. and
> the
> > world have just suffered this terrible tragedy is
> > unconscionable. Some of the statments are petty
> and
> > very inappropriate.
> >
> > When Bush said you stand with us or against us, he
> > meant standing against terrorist attacks on
> innocent
> > civilians. Yet, some of you seem to want to read
> into
> > this statement something sinister. Maybe you
> should
> > examine your own projections and motives.
> >
>
> When Bush was elected, the US was the laughing stock
> of the rest of the
> world. I hope you realize this. And as I have said
> before, what I think of
> your president has nothing to do with the sympathy I
> feel for the victims of
> the tragedy. I'll say it again: human suffering goes
> above and beyond
> everything. But that does not mean that it has to be
> so black/white as you
> portray it. It will only add to the polarization of
> the world.
>
> > To others,you know who you are:
> > Others have said how selfish the United States is
> and
> > others proclaim that we neglect our homeland. It
> is
> > very sad that you should perceive us this way.
> Could
> > it be that you are receiving information from
> sources
> > who have their own agenda against the U.S.?
> >
>
> I almost forgot. I am a KGB agent, and I'm part of a
> Chinese spy network.
>
> > Just like the people that are constantly
> criticizing
> > the Nova Roma government and it's officials,
> everybody
> > thinks they can do it better.
> >
>
> And what is criticising the critics?
>
> > How much in money and lives have you or your
> > government offered to feed the starving, offer
> medical
> > relief and even offered to help those people and
> > countries fighting for freedom?
> > How much money or time has your country or you
> offered
> > in the war on drugs?
> >
>
> More than enough, thank you very much. I really
> don't need nationalism here.
>
> > Most of you have no clue what our country is about
> so
> > please knock it off. We do not need your whining
> and
> > criticisms. And, what does it say about you that
> you
> > take this time of the lowest of emotional lows of
> the
> > American people to vent your criticisms?
> >
>
> Wrong. My emotional sympathy goes out to all
> victims, let this be said. But
> my intellectual sympathy is a different issue.
>
> > I am very proud to be a citizen of the United
> States.
> > I have been a citizen for over 50 years. NO
> > government or its people is perfect includings
> yours.
> >
> > I have had every opportunity to make a living, get
> a
> > good education, work for decent wages, enjoy peace
> and
> > security and have the freedom of self expression
> that
> > some only dream about.
> > If this declaration is too saccharin, too
> patriotic or
> > too sentimental for you or you just plain
> disagree.
> > Too Bad!
>
> Well, I do disagree. And I think this is off topic,
> too.
>
> Vale,
> S. Apollonius Draco
>
>


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Introduction?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:48:22 +0200

Salve Helena Galeria,

>I envy all our European citizens, who actually live in part of the old
Empire.

Don't envy us. Just hop over and take a look at the old Empire and say hello
to us on the way!!!

Greetings from Switzerland, Tiberius Annaeus Otho

________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] America
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 06:04:13 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Marcus Audens,
Thank you for your reply. I have learned a lot from
you and Drusus whom I admire very much.
I wish that I understood politics more. With your
help and help of others (some who are not agreeable),
I am learning rapidly.
I regret my former passive and complacent attitude.

In no way do I blame the religion of Islam for a few
fanatics. G-d has always meant "love and compassion"
to me, not obliterate thy neighbor. I, too have
friends who are Islamic, Jewish, Christian and Pagan.
None of them have hate in their hearts and I feel
fortunate to have such diverse friends who have
enriched my life.

Thank you again for your comments and I pray for the
protection of all our families and friends.

Vale, Maximina

--- jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
> Mistress Maximina Octavia;
>
> I am impressed with your statements and
> forthrightness. It is my
> fondest hope that all foriegn aid that is now going
> out to a large
> number of countries in the world, will be critically
> reviewed. Those
> countries who do not support the U.S., I believe
> that foriegn aid
> support to those countries should be diverted in
> it's entirity, to the
> fight on terrorism. I have not heard of any such
> action, and I believe
> it should be immediately undertaken. It should be
> obvious to all
> western nations that this terrorist threat is
> directed to all, not just
> the U.S. The murder of large number of foriegn
> citizens in New York was
> a deliberate statement, and one which should be
> recognized by all
> thinking people everywhere in the Western World.
>
> I am told, or was told some years ago, that the only
> country who has
> repaid the loans made to them after WWII was
> Finland. At this late date
> I don't suppose it matters much, but, it would seem
> that those countries
> (and their citizens) whom we have sent money,
> supplies, aid,
> intelligence, and support might give some thought to
> willingly assisting
> in an effort which is for all the world, not just
> for the U.S.
> Terrorist attacks in other countries with the
> apparent willingness to
> kill, maim and destroy people of like faith and
> culture, as well as
> those who are of a different belief should certainly
> speak as a warning
> to all.
>
> I fully understand the basis of these terrorists and
> where they come
> from. At the turn of the century, there was another
> such fanatic who
> rose to the top of the ladder near Kartounm
> (spelling??) in the Sudan.
> He and his followers at that time directed their
> efforts against England
> and to a lesser extent Egypt. They destroyed the
> Army of General "Hicks
> Pasha" and ultimately overran Kartounm, killed
> General "Chinese" Gorden,
> who had organized the defense of Kartoumn, and were
> in time finally
> defeated by the British Army, an action which was
> reported by a young
> Winston Churchill.
>
> In the following years it was passed among many of
> the believers of
> Islam, in that area, that another would rise from
> the desert dwellers
> and again lead those of Islam (or those who believe
> as do some in Islam
> of the complete religious unsuitability of the
> western religions and
> cultures) to a victory against the West. It was a
> larger world then,
> and there were vast areas, that were seen as
> useless, where many of the
> followers of Islam dwelt. Today the world is much
> smaller with hidden
> treasures in those same vast lands that today are as
> precious as gold
> was at that time, with all that entails in the
> greedy human animal.
>
> In 1842, the remnants of the British Army of the
> Indus were completely
> distroyed at Ganadamack (First Afghan War) on the
> road from Kabul to
> Jalalabad after having been invited to come to
> Afghanistan as an
> occupying force as described in the book "The Fierce
> Pawns" authored by
> Macrory. This army was a combined force of the
> Queen's Regiments and the
> Company (Honorable East India Company) and most of
> the soldiers were
> presumably Muslims.
>
> Compared to those stories is the book "Seven Pillers
> of Wisdom" written
> by a former Colonel of the British Army, who during
> WWI fought as a
> leader of Arab forces against the Axis powers, and
> was accepted by them,
> even to the extent of Prince Fisal and the the
> ruling family of Saudi
> Arabia. Those Arabs who came to this Englishman's
> banner were certainly
> Islamic in religion and honored this man greatly for
> his leadership, and
> his concern for them, even though he was not of
> thier faith.
>
> Just lately there have been Americans who have acted
> with the home
> forces of Afghanistan as advisors against the
> Russian Invasion, and
> provided weapons, supplies and support until the
> Russians left the
> country.
>
> I understand that in all of these cases, a war
> footing was paramount,
> and desperation against a strong enemy was the
> creation of a time of
> special needs, but I would be interested to know how
> Islam and it's
> teachings could be so broad in it's interpretation,
> as to allow such
> wide and contradictory beliefs as with the above
> items mentioned, within
> it's adherents, and the present terrorist problem
> which draws apparent
> strength and support from Islam in some, quarters,
> manner and degree. I
> have some little knowledge of the about the above
> items having been
> interested in all of them as a mlitary historian (by
> avocation only), as
> well as havng read the Koran, and for a time
> considering immersing
> myself within the belief. It was, in fact, the idea
> of "jihad" that
> finally moved me not to embrace that religion
> further, in my early
> search for a faith in which I felt at home, and one
> in which I could
> believe.
>
> I do not for one moment deny that these people have
> a strong belief in
> what they do, and what they believe to be necessary
> for the final goals
> in thier life. I have heard from those who are
> strong adherents of
> Islam and holy men within that belief indicate that
> these terrorist
> ideas are NOT in the realm of Islam, and yet the
> beliefs of those who
> have died, and the attempts of those who have
> attempted to do so and
> have failed, is I believe not to be disregarded as
> mere foolishness.
> Thousands of thier fellow citizens believe strongly
> in what they are
> doing, and how they are doing it. Why???? I have
> seen apparently good
> men who are hard-working, intelligent, caring and
> properoous people in
> Islamic countries support these tactics fully.
> Again I ask why, and
> what has brought these people to such a basic
> disagreement within such a
> peaceful religion.
>
> Nor am I ignorant of the past history of the
> Christain adherents, whose
> hands have been stained with the blood of people of
> thier own faith
> (Jeruselum-Crusades, just one example) and many
> others. However, I am
> attempting to define rather than criticize the
> actions and the ideals
> which drive some to such opposite concepts.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
>
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Introduction
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 06:13:31 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Puteus Germanicus,

Welcome to Nova Roma. I hope that your citizenship
will be happy and productive.

I am very pleased that you entertain such acceptance
of Religio Romana and Roman virtues. You appear to be
an honorable soul interested in the growth of Nova
Roma.
As you may have noticed, we engage in healthy debate
on the Main List. ALthough, sometimes the posts may
seem harsh, I believe that our Romans are well
intentioned and virtuous people. I hope you keep that
in mind as our many forthright posts appear.

Good luck on your journey with us.

Vale, Maximina Octavia

--- Bart & Dorien <bart_dorien@--------> wrote:
> Salve!
>
> Dear Romans, allow me to introduce me as a new
> member to this list.
> Dear Lady Moderator, I have recieved your list and
> thank you for the introduction.
>
> I, Caius Puteus Germanicus was born 24 years ago and
> have been living in Germania Inferior, now part of
> the province of Gallia, since. My cognomen indicates
> my racial connections. I have been studying history
> at the university of Louvain and have always felt a
> special attraction to ancient Roman history, not
> only of the republic, but also of the early empire
> (principate). Disinterest grows as soon as
> christianity starts destroying what our forebears
> have been building up for a thousand years.
>
> I am working in a car leasing company at the moment,
> part of a financial group that unites bank,
> assurance and leasing activities (not that this
> might be of any interest here). I am living together
> with my girlfriend Dorien.
>
> I grew up in a society in which christianity was
> dying. As an adolescent I became interested in
> paganism, germanic version, the so called asatru. I
> am however convinced that every indo-european nation
> shares the same basic divine figures. Tacitus
> interpreted the germanic gods as members of the
> roman pantheon, calling the equivalent of Donar/Thor
> Jupiter and Wodan/Odin Mercurius. I am proud of
> having germanic roots, but I feel connected to Rome
> even more. Rome is the first universalist nation in
> history, the basis for present day western
> civilisation. I hope you will understand me being
> faithfull to Indo-European divinities, in the form
> of the religio romana as well as asatru (which word
> means nothing more or less than 'faithfull to the
> gods').
>
> I claim roman citizenship based on several
> principles: first of all the historical edictum of
> Caracalla in the early third century, in which the
> emperor gives citizenship to all free born men and
> women in the Imperium. Secondly, since I try to
> realise the principles of virtus in my own life
> (e.g. the importance of honour, family life, etc.).
> As Tacitus tells us in De Germania those principles
> are not even so different from the germanic ones
> (except for the concept of state, of course). I
> honour the Indo-European gods, and feel like
> adopting the via romana. Last but not least, I claim
> descendence from both germanic and roman settlers.
> As any European will know, no nation in western
> Europe can claim a clear racial descendence, the
> only thing thas is certain is the mother tongue you
> speak. As a Belgian, I grew up with both French and
> Dutch... and I have relatives in both parts of the
> country.
>
> I feel ready to help the res publica romana with
> rebuilding its imperium! After more than a millenium
> we still have the strength for doing so, and I want
> to be part of it!
>
> I hope I did not bore you with this introduction,
> and I hope to contribute to the development of this
> list,
>
> Vale!
> C. Puteus Germanicus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Introduction
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:44:21 +0100

Salve Caie Puteo Germanice

Be most welcome among us and particularly within
Provincia Gallia.

Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : "Bart & Dorien" <bart_dorien@-------->
> To : "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
> Cc :
> Date : Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:19:54 +0100
> Subject : [novaroma] Introduction
>
> Salve!
>
> Dear Romans, allow me to introduce me as a new member
to this list.
> Dear Lady Moderator, I have recieved your list and
thank you for the introduction.
>
> I, Caius Puteus Germanicus was born 24 years ago and
have been living in Germania Inferior, now part of the
province of Gallia, since. My cognomen indicates my
racial connections. I have been studying history at the
university of Louvain and have always felt a special
attraction to ancient Roman history, not only of the
republic, but also of the early empire (principate).
Disinterest grows as soon as christianity starts
destroying what our forebears have been building up for a
thousand years.
>
> I am working in a car leasing company at the moment,
part of a financial group that unites bank, assurance and
leasing activities (not that this might be of any
interest here). I am living together with my girlfriend
Dorien.
>
> I grew up in a society in which christianity was dying.
As an adolescent I became interested in paganism,
germanic version, the so called asatru. I am however
convinced that every indo-european nation shares the same
basic divine figures. Tacitus interpreted the germanic
gods as members of the roman pantheon, calling the
equivalent of Donar/Thor Jupiter and Wodan/Odin
Mercurius. I am proud of having germanic roots, but I
feel connected to Rome even more. Rome is the first
universalist nation in history, the basis for present day
western civilisation. I hope you will understand me being
faithfull to Indo-European divinities, in the form of the
religio romana as well as asatru (which word means
nothing more or less than 'faithfull to the gods').
>
> I claim roman citizenship based on several principles:
first of all the historical edictum of Caracalla in the
early third century, in which the emperor gives
citizenship to all free born men and women in the
Imperium. Secondly, since I try to realise the principles
of virtus in my own life (e.g. the importance of honour,
family life, etc.). As Tacitus tells us in De Germania
those principles are not even so different from the
germanic ones (except for the concept of state, of
course). I honour the Indo-European gods, and feel like
adopting the via romana. Last but not least, I claim
descendence from both germanic and roman settlers. As any
European will know, no nation in western Europe can claim
a clear racial descendence, the only thing thas is
certain is the mother tongue you speak. As a Belgian, I
grew up with both French and Dutch... and I have
relatives in both parts of the country.
>
> I feel ready to help the res publica romana with
rebuilding its imperium! After more than a millenium we
still have the strength for doing so, and I want to be
part of it!
>
> I hope I did not bore you with this introduction, and I
hope to contribute to the development of this list,
>
> Vale!
> C. Puteus Germanicus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--------------
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Subject:	[novaroma] Where do I stand?
From:	"Cable" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:58:05 +0200

Salve Maximina

> So throw me out.

I think I didn't suggest this. It just seems that we - rather violently -
disagree on a macropolitical issue.

> You were certainly the furthest person from my mind
> when I wrote my message.
> However, in light of this message, it is good to know
> where you stand.

Where do I stand?

> Yes, terrorism is off topic. Sorry to offend you.

I wasn't offended by the fact that it was off topic.

Vale bene!
Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Introduction
From:	"Bart & Dorien" <bart_dorien@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:06:29 +0100

Thank you for your welcome, Maximina.
I checked out your website, there are some beautiful peaces of art on it. I
have to admit I almost got a heart attack when I saw St Michael figuring
there, but the comment speaks for itself!
I only got one question to the group: is there an historical notice of
female gladiator fighters or not? I mean, really in the arena, not the women
who helped e.g. Spartacus in his strugle in the first century BC?
Vale bene!
C. Puteus Germanicus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maximina Octavia" <myownq@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Introduction

> Ave Puteus Germanicus,
>
> Welcome to Nova Roma. I hope that your citizenship
> will be happy and productive.
>
> I am very pleased that you entertain such acceptance
> of Religio Romana and Roman virtues. You appear to be
> an honorable soul interested in the growth of Nova
> Roma.
> As you may have noticed, we engage in healthy debate
> on the Main List. ALthough, sometimes the posts may
> seem harsh, I believe that our Romans are well
> intentioned and virtuous people. I hope you keep that
> in mind as our many forthright posts appear.
>
> Good luck on your journey with us.
>
> Vale, Maximina Octavia
>
> --- Bart & Dorien <bart_dorien@--------> wrote:
> > Salve!
> >
> > Dear Romans, allow me to introduce me as a new
> > member to this list.
> > Dear Lady Moderator, I have recieved your list and
> > thank you for the introduction.
> >
> > I, Caius Puteus Germanicus was born 24 years ago and
> > have been living in Germania Inferior, now part of
> > the province of Gallia, since. My cognomen indicates
> > my racial connections. I have been studying history
> > at the university of Louvain and have always felt a
> > special attraction to ancient Roman history, not
> > only of the republic, but also of the early empire
> > (principate). Disinterest grows as soon as
> > christianity starts destroying what our forebears
> > have been building up for a thousand years.
> >
> > I am working in a car leasing company at the moment,
> > part of a financial group that unites bank,
> > assurance and leasing activities (not that this
> > might be of any interest here). I am living together
> > with my girlfriend Dorien.
> >
> > I grew up in a society in which christianity was
> > dying. As an adolescent I became interested in
> > paganism, germanic version, the so called asatru. I
> > am however convinced that every indo-european nation
> > shares the same basic divine figures. Tacitus
> > interpreted the germanic gods as members of the
> > roman pantheon, calling the equivalent of Donar/Thor
> > Jupiter and Wodan/Odin Mercurius. I am proud of
> > having germanic roots, but I feel connected to Rome
> > even more. Rome is the first universalist nation in
> > history, the basis for present day western
> > civilisation. I hope you will understand me being
> > faithfull to Indo-European divinities, in the form
> > of the religio romana as well as asatru (which word
> > means nothing more or less than 'faithfull to the
> > gods').
> >
> > I claim roman citizenship based on several
> > principles: first of all the historical edictum of
> > Caracalla in the early third century, in which the
> > emperor gives citizenship to all free born men and
> > women in the Imperium. Secondly, since I try to
> > realise the principles of virtus in my own life
> > (e.g. the importance of honour, family life, etc.).
> > As Tacitus tells us in De Germania those principles
> > are not even so different from the germanic ones
> > (except for the concept of state, of course). I
> > honour the Indo-European gods, and feel like
> > adopting the via romana. Last but not least, I claim
> > descendence from both germanic and roman settlers.
> > As any European will know, no nation in western
> > Europe can claim a clear racial descendence, the
> > only thing thas is certain is the mother tongue you
> > speak. As a Belgian, I grew up with both French and
> > Dutch... and I have relatives in both parts of the
> > country.
> >
> > I feel ready to help the res publica romana with
> > rebuilding its imperium! After more than a millenium
> > we still have the strength for doing so, and I want
> > to be part of it!
> >
> > I hope I did not bore you with this introduction,
> > and I hope to contribute to the development of this
> > list,
> >
> > Vale!
> > C. Puteus Germanicus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Iusurando
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:20:23 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Iusurando
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:20:09 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Pompeia.

--- trog99@-------- wrote:
> --- Salvete Gnae Salix et alii:
>
> My thanks to you for posting, and to Titus Minicius for the
> translation. Actually long overdue, given we are in our fourth year
> of Nova Roma's existance.
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia

I would say so as well :-).

Thank you for your support, Cornelia.

> In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites.
> >
> > Titus Minicius Marianus, a cives of Hispania, has prepared a
> > translation of our oath of office to Latin. I thought it would be a
> > good idea to post it here, on the main list; for I think that an
> oath
> > in Latin would probably be more "Roman" than one in English (both
> could
> > be simultaneously used, IMHO).
> >
> > The original English text can be found at:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > Ego, (praenomen, nomen, cognomen et nomen barbarum) hoc ipso facto
> > sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
> Romae
> > Populo atque Senatu agere.
> > Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego............... Romae deos deasque
> colere
> >
> > IVRO in omnibus publicae vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et
>
> > publica et privata vita persequi.
> > Ego......... Romanam religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae
> Romae
> >
> > Reipublicae religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae
>
> > religionis aliquid detrimenti capiat.
> > Praeterea ego.......... IVRO quam optime fungi officium muneris
> (the
> > office in genitive).
> > Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque
> deabus
> > et eorum voluntate et favore, munus (office in genitive) ACCIPIO
> una
> > cum iuribus, privilegiis. munera atque officia quae meum munus
> > comportat.
> > In (your Province, city or similar)(date) anno MMDCCLIV ab Vrbe
> > condita.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> > Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> > Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> > Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> > Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
> Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: America
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:31:56 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marce Minuci Audens.

--- Tal123berg@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> >
> > I am told, or was told some years ago, that the only country who
> has
> > repaid the loans made to them after WWII was Finland. At this late
>
> date
> > I don't suppose it matters much, but, it would seem that those
> countries
> > (and their citizens) whom we have sent money, supplies, aid,
> > intelligence, and support might give some thought to willingly
> assisting
> > in an effort which is for all the world, not just for the U.S.
> > Terrorist attacks in other countries with the apparent willingness
> to
> > kill, maim and destroy people of like faith and culture, as well as
> > those who are of a different belief should certainly speak as a
> warning
> > to all.
> >
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> just a few data about the Marshall Plan after WWII you are obviously
> referring to above: All loans indicated in the table (the third
> figure in each line) have been paid back. The grant money itself most
>
> of the time had to be used as a revolving credit facility for the
> respective ailing economies and was under US control. Even today in
> Germany and Austria, two large Funds (still partly under US control
> and governed by bilateral agreements) exist, which - apart from
> giving credits to local companies - also give grant money for
> development purposes.
>
> Economic Assistance, April 3, 1948 to June 30, 1952
> (in millions of dollars)
>
>
> Total for all countries $13,325.8 Grants: $11,820.7 Loans $1,505.1
>
> COUNTRY Total Grants Loans
> Austria 677.8 677.8 --
> Belgium-Luxembourg 559.3 491.3 68.0a
> Denmark 273.0 239.7 33.3
> France 2,713.6 2,488.0 225.6
> Germany, Federal Republic of 1,390.6 1,173.7 216.9b
> Greece 706.7 706.7 --
> Iceland 29.3 24.0 5.3
> Ireland 147.5 19.3 128.2
> Italy (including Trieste) 1,508.8 1,413.2 95.6
> Netherlands (*East Indies)c 1,083.5 916.8 166.7
> Norway 255.3 216.1 39.2
> Portugal 51.2 15.1 36.1
> Sweden 107.3 86.9 20.4
> Turkey 225.1 140.1 85.0
> United Kingdom 3,189.8 2,805.0 384.8
>
> Regional 407.0d 407.0d --
>
> Notes:
>
> Loan total includes $65.0 million for Belgium and $3.0 million for
> Luxembourg: grant detail between the two countries cannot be
> identified.
>
> Includes an original loan figure of $16.9 million, plus $200.0
> million representing a pro-rated share of grants converted to loans
> under an agreement signed February 27, 1953.
>
> Marshall Plan aid to the Netherlands East Indies (now Indonesia) was
> extended through the Netherlands prior to transfer of sovereignty on
> December 30, 1949. The aid totals for the Netherlands East Indies are
>
> as follows:
> Total $101.4 million, Grants $84.2 million, Loans $17.2 million.
>
> Includes U.S. contribution to the European Payments Union (EPU)
> capital fund, $361.4 million; General Freight Account, $33.5 million;
>
> and European Technical Assistance Authorizations (multi-country or
> regional), $12.1 million.
>
> It is also noteworthy that the US is one of the smallest contributors
>
> of aid to other countries when measured against its GDP. While many
> European countries give up to 1% of their GDP in development aid, the
>
> US is closer to 0,2%, and that only if the US Congress is in a good
> mood and releases the money.
>
> With the highest respect
>
> Marcus Heinz (Marcus Marcius Rex)

If you read the above list carefully, you will see that Spain was not
included. The Marshall plan did not help Spain. Do we still owe you
something, sir?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Introduction
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:19:25 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Puteus Germanicus, (Bart and Dorien)

Thank you so much for checking out my website. Soon I
will be posting pictures of Larariums and a Mithraem I
just built. There about 2 feet high and about 1 and a
half feet wide.

Regarding St Michael, a good many Judeo-Christian
figures were adapted from Pagan religions. Some have
even compared Mithras with Christian figures.

My next project is a Kemetic Orthodox shrine decorated
in the traditional Egyptian styles.

I have delayed finishing my painting of Minerva in
order to finish other projects, but she will be along
soon.

Thanks again, write anytime. Love to read a friendly
message as often as possible.

If there is anything I can do for you, please feel
free to let me know.

Vale, Maximina

--- Bart & Dorien <bart_dorien@--------> wrote:
> Thank you for your welcome, Maximina.
> I checked out your website, there are some beautiful
> peaces of art on it. I
> have to admit I almost got a heart attack when I saw
> St Michael figuring
> there, but the comment speaks for itself!
> I only got one question to the group: is there an
> historical notice of
> female gladiator fighters or not? I mean, really in
> the arena, not the women
> who helped e.g. Spartacus in his strugle in the
> first century BC?
> Vale bene!
> C. Puteus Germanicus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maximina Octavia" <myownq@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 2:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Introduction
>
>
> > Ave Puteus Germanicus,
> >
> > Welcome to Nova Roma. I hope that your
> citizenship
> > will be happy and productive.
> >
> > I am very pleased that you entertain such
> acceptance
> > of Religio Romana and Roman virtues. You appear to
> be
> > an honorable soul interested in the growth of Nova
> > Roma.
> > As you may have noticed, we engage in healthy
> debate
> > on the Main List. ALthough, sometimes the posts
> may
> > seem harsh, I believe that our Romans are well
> > intentioned and virtuous people. I hope you keep
> that
> > in mind as our many forthright posts appear.
> >
> > Good luck on your journey with us.
> >
> > Vale, Maximina Octavia
> >
> > --- Bart & Dorien <bart_dorien@--------> wrote:
> > > Salve!
> > >
> > > Dear Romans, allow me to introduce me as a new
> > > member to this list.
> > > Dear Lady Moderator, I have recieved your list
> and
> > > thank you for the introduction.
> > >
> > > I, Caius Puteus Germanicus was born 24 years ago
> and
> > > have been living in Germania Inferior, now part
> of
> > > the province of Gallia, since. My cognomen
> indicates
> > > my racial connections. I have been studying
> history
> > > at the university of Louvain and have always
> felt a
> > > special attraction to ancient Roman history, not
> > > only of the republic, but also of the early
> empire
> > > (principate). Disinterest grows as soon as
> > > christianity starts destroying what our
> forebears
> > > have been building up for a thousand years.
> > >
> > > I am working in a car leasing company at the
> moment,
> > > part of a financial group that unites bank,
> > > assurance and leasing activities (not that this
> > > might be of any interest here). I am living
> together
> > > with my girlfriend Dorien.
> > >
> > > I grew up in a society in which christianity was
> > > dying. As an adolescent I became interested in
> > > paganism, germanic version, the so called
> asatru. I
> > > am however convinced that every indo-european
> nation
> > > shares the same basic divine figures. Tacitus
> > > interpreted the germanic gods as members of the
> > > roman pantheon, calling the equivalent of
> Donar/Thor
> > > Jupiter and Wodan/Odin Mercurius. I am proud of
> > > having germanic roots, but I feel connected to
> Rome
> > > even more. Rome is the first universalist nation
> in
> > > history, the basis for present day western
> > > civilisation. I hope you will understand me
> being
> > > faithfull to Indo-European divinities, in the
> form
> > > of the religio romana as well as asatru (which
> word
> > > means nothing more or less than 'faithfull to
> the
> > > gods').
> > >
> > > I claim roman citizenship based on several
> > > principles: first of all the historical edictum
> of
> > > Caracalla in the early third century, in which
> the
> > > emperor gives citizenship to all free born men
> and
> > > women in the Imperium. Secondly, since I try to
> > > realise the principles of virtus in my own life
> > > (e.g. the importance of honour, family life,
> etc.).
> > > As Tacitus tells us in De Germania those
> principles
> > > are not even so different from the germanic ones
> > > (except for the concept of state, of course). I
> > > honour the Indo-European gods, and feel like
> > > adopting the via romana. Last but not least, I
> claim
> > > descendence from both germanic and roman
> settlers.
> > > As any European will know, no nation in western
> > > Europe can claim a clear racial descendence, the
> > > only thing thas is certain is the mother tongue
> you
> > > speak. As a Belgian, I grew up with both French
> and
> > > Dutch... and I have relatives in both parts of
> the
> > > country.
> > >
> > > I feel ready to help the res publica romana with
> > > rebuilding its imperium! After more than a
> millenium
> > > we still have the strength for doing so, and I
> want
> > > to be part of it!
> > >
> > > I hope I did not bore you with this
> introduction,
> > > and I hope to contribute to the development of
> this
> > > list,
> > >
> > > Vale!
> > > C. Puteus Germanicus
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Where do I stand?
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:04:03 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Draco,
I think you quite clearly demonstrated your feelings.
I feel that it would be redundant to restate them. As
I said before, You did not come to mind at all when I
wrote my message. Perhaps I missed some very relative
comments.

* You * seem to violently disagree. I see nothing
violent in supporting my country and my fellow country
men and women.

The questions I posed were for the conscience of each
individual and not necessarily rhetorical.

However, I simply will not put up with ill-timed (or
otherwise) U.S. bashing and from people who do not
live in my country, or have merely spent a few years
here, and who do not fully understand all the nuances
of our politics. (Some who live here often have a hard
time understanding.)

Criticism of U.S. policy during this time indicates to
me that people feel we deserve terrorist attacks. Sort
of "well, if you didn't do this, this would not have
happened" attitude. (I am not suggesting you feel this
way, however, insensitive comments may indicate this
attitude.)

Enduring verbal attacks and criticism is just another
form of attack and, IMHO sadistic especially at this
very tender time.

Vale bene yourself!, Maximina
P.S. My conscience is clear. BTW, I sleep very well.

-- Cable <hendrik.meuleman@--------> wrote:
> Salve Maximina
>
> > So throw me out.
>
> I think I didn't suggest this. It just seems that we
> - rather violently -
> disagree on a macropolitical issue.
>
> > You were certainly the furthest person from my
> mind
> > when I wrote my message.
> > However, in light of this message, it is good to
> know
> > where you stand.
>
> Where do I stand?
>
> > Yes, terrorism is off topic. Sorry to offend you.
>
> I wasn't offended by the fact that it was off topic.
>
> Vale bene!
> Draco
>
>