Subject: [novaroma] Re: America
From: Tal123berg@--------
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:56:49 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:

>
> If you read the above list carefully, you will see that Spain was
not
> included. The Marshall plan did not help Spain. Do we still owe you
> something, sir?
>
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
>

Salve Gnae!

As you probably know, the US was at the time in the business of
wiping out and not supporting fascist regimes as the Franco regime in
Spain. What one should know of course is that Marshall Plan aid and
the membership in the OEEC (which was to become the OECD) was
originally also offered to the later so called "Eastern bloc"
countries but they were made refuse the help grace of the Soviet
Union.

Marcus Heinz



Subject: [novaroma] Marshall Plan in Spain
From: "Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:34:20 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Tal123berg@a... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
>
> >
> > If you read the above list carefully, you will see that Spain was
> not> > included. The Marshall plan did not help Spain. Do we still
owe you> > something, sir?
> >
>
> Salve Gnae!
>
> As you probably know, the US was at the time in the business of
> wiping out and not supporting fascist regimes as the Franco regime
in
> Spain. What one should know of course is that Marshall Plan aid and
> the membership in the OEEC (which was to become the OECD) was
> originally also offered to the later so called "Eastern bloc"
> countries but they were made refuse the help grace of the Soviet
> Union.
>
> Marcus Heinz



Salve, cives.

Yes, the issue of fighting opressors with sanctions without harming
the opressed is difficult, even today (Saddam Hussein and Fidel
Castro come to mind).

But I feel compelled to say that, although the Marshall plan did not
help rebuild the spanish industry, it did include Spain in its food
and humanitarian aid budget. Spain also received humanitarian aid at
the time from the US through the FAO and the UN. My own grandparents
benefitted from this aid.

Of course, this was an relatively very unimportant part of the huge
Marshall plan credits, but it deserves a mention nonetheless.

The US posture towards francoist Spain changed with time. At first it
was instrumental to its diplomatic isolation as a fascist state (it
was mere chance that avoided Spain's entering WWII in Germany's
side). Later it was regarded as an "anti-communist state" by
Eisenhower (mainly due to its strategic situation in cold war
geopolitics), bilateral defence agreements were signed and
the "international isolation" was lifted.

Marcus Salix Saverius



Subject: [novaroma] OT: An interesting quote.....
From: "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:07:47 -0000
Salvete,

I stumbled across an intersting quote today, which very nicely sums
up my attitude towards those individuals who inisist that there is
a "peaceful solution" to dealing with the threat of extremist Islamic
terrorism...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in
brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I
believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time
trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the
treatment."

Malcolm X (1925-1965), speech, 12 December 1964, New York City

For those of you unfamilair with U.S. history, Malcom X was a famous
African-American civil rights activist and Muslim. I think it's safe
to say that Osama & the Taliban have no interest in brotherhood with
anyone who does not share thier twisted interpretation of Islam, so
we should not waste any effort trying to "work things out." You can
not make peace with people who only desire war.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price,
peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of
soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life."

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), letter, 10 Jan. 1917



Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: America
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marcus.

--- Tal123berg@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
>
> >
> > If you read the above list carefully, you will see that Spain was
> not
> > included. The Marshall plan did not help Spain. Do we still owe you
> > something, sir?
>
> Salve Gnae!
>
> As you probably know, the US was at the time in the business of
> wiping out and not supporting fascist regimes as the Franco regime in
> Spain. What one should know of course is that Marshall Plan aid and
> the membership in the OEEC (which was to become the OECD) was
> originally also offered to the later so called "Eastern bloc"
> countries but they were made refuse the help grace of the Soviet
> Union.
>
> Marcus Heinz

Allowing a fascist dictator to rule for around 40 years does not seem
to coincide with my definition of "wiping out". Franco's regime was so
negative for Spain because of that; it meant the exclusion of Spain
from international circles (particularly from the European scene), but
it also meant that Spain was "safe" from Communism (no Marshall plan
needed here), and that it was out of the competition for international
economic preponderance (good for other European nations as well).

All that is history now, and I am a firm believer that we should not
blame today's men for the faults of their grandparents. But if we start
to wave around the Marshall paln debt, I thought I should make clear
that not ALL of Western Europe benefited from it.


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Nova Britannia Get-together Update!
From: "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:34:33 -0400
Salvete,

Everything is all set to hold the get-together at my place (in Plymouth) on
Sunday, September 30th. The only possible hitch is if my National Guard unit
is activated between now and then (which is not out of the realm of
possibility). The tentaive plan is have either a cook-out or pizza party
(weather and everyone's preferance will be the determining factor) and watch
some Roman themed movies. If you plan on attending, please RSVP as soon as
possible so we can iron out all the details (i.e. when exactly people will
show-up, etc.). Suggestions for movies, or other possible activities are
welcome!

Valete,


C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova britannia provincia

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius




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