Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] a question regarding patron deities
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:12:39 -0700

Ave,

Patron dieties are set by the Paterfamilias. Many Gentes have them listed as a means of indentifying the Gods that gens pays special reverence for. How the patron dieties are handled within the gens would be within the pervue of the Paterfamilias or the Materfamilias.

My honest suggestion for you, Lucius Pompeius, would be to contact your Paterfamilias and ask him what he expects in terms of reverence/worship.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: danielovi@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 4:47 PM
Subject: [novaroma] a question regarding patron deities

Salvete omnes.
I wish to make in the main list the same question I already made at
the Religio list.
Now that my gens has patron deities, I would like that somebody could
explain me about that,i.e., its meaning and its role in a gens. In
the case of my gens, they are : Isis-Fortuna, Venus and Celestial
Antinous. By the way, I do not have any idea who the latter is.
Thank you in advance.
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] a question regarding patron deities
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:12:39 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Nova Roma
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:47:54 -0000

I might be able to talk my parents into turning our small plot into a
Roman outpost. We live outside of Granville, North Dakota.
Personally, I think a cultural capital would be a great idea. Maybe
we could even talk the Itallian government into setting up something,
because not only does it benifit us, but it benifits them in that it
allows anybody to re-explore Roman culture in a way museums can't.
As per the citizens not being able to actually go there, so what? I
plan to go to Rome some day, that's just what everyone will have to
say. That, and even if they never get to go, at least they can say
it's there.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

--- In novaroma@--------, "Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@a...>
wrote:
> Salve,
>
> As yet, Nova Roma does not in fact own any land. We have stated
goals
> of eventually owning a 108 acre "cultural world capital" in the
> future, but so far there has been no money to put toward such a
> project.
>
> There was some in-depth discussion about obtaining land just a few
> months ago, (seems like longer!)where other "intermediate" options
> were considered. In my opinion the most reasonable was buying a
very
> inexpensive "starter" piece of land, a place that we could put up a
> flag and perhaps a monument/park, and make use of for publicity
> purposes. Just because we have a stated goal of 108 acres for
> a "capital" doesn't mean we can't start smaller!
>
> Land will probably end up being a difficult issue for us. It will
be
> very hard for many hundreds of people to agree to spend money on a
> place where only a tiny minority of them are likely to be able to
> ever visit. No matter what land comes available, there will likely
> always be a majority of people who will find it inconvenient, or
> against whatever personal dream they have had for land. (If they
even
> want land at all. Some have stated that it's a waste of our time
and
> money!)
>
> My personal vision of land goes like this:
>
> Near future - buying a ridiculously cheap piece of land somewhere,
> even if it's in the middle of nowhere. Some of our Citizens visit
it
> now and again, put up a flag, we make a nice little park with
flowers
> and some sort of monument, take lots of pictures, and put up the
info
> on the website. What a great way to prove to the world we have real
> world intent (and organization!) This could be done for only a few
> thousand and could gain us years of increased publicity.
>
> Farther future - As our local provinciae grow, we obtain "local"
> pieces of land. These wouldn't have to be terribly big... just a
> place where a "Roman outpost" could be put up for folks to gather
at
> events/classes, etc. (Or, even more cool, a location with a few
> legions get together and build a Roman style fort...) Obviously,
> anything including buildings (bought or built) requires a far
greater
> financial/organizational burden. We don't have that kind of
resources
> now at mere thousand Citizens, but we might at say, 15,000.
>
> Ultimate future: we buy (or are gifted with!) 108 contiguous acres
of
> land, on which we build a "cultural capital", perhaps in the form
of
> a Roman forum with governmental/religious/business facilities. This
> would be a Classical equivalent of the micronation which exists in
> Vatican City. Obviously, this would be a project requiring millions
> of dollars. I don't expect to see it happen in my lifetime.
However,
> the plan is there and something to keep in mind for the years
ahead.
>
> If I really had my personal choice we'd buy an island somewhere.
The
> discussion of land a few months ago was started when it was found
> that there are islands, (some fairly large) selling for only
$35,000
> US or so. Less than the average price of a home in the US with no
> land at all!
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@--------> wrote:
> > I seem to remember reading in the constitution somewhere that
there
> > was an actual plot of land set aside for Nova Roma. Is this
true?
> > If so, where is the real Nova Roma?
> >
> > Marcus Cornelius Tiberius


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: "Land Bill" for Nova Roma
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:05:34 -0000

I concure, the Culture Capital should be someplace that was under
Roman rule. That could be anyplace from England to North Africa. I
also like the idea of having small outposts, so everone can actually
visit "Nova Roma". I think that by even calling them "outposts of
Nova Roma" then we could all say we went to Nova Roma after visiting
an outpost. Then maybe we could just make it a citizen's wish list
that we could make a pilgramage to the Cultural Capital.

I realize land is not cheap, but by getting land, and by publisizing
that we have land, Nova Roma could gain more citizens and thus more
money to do things with that land. I'm sure we could start out small
and with even just on historical looking building with donations from
different historical societies (I think).

As for the pesimists that seem to be thinking a long way down the
road, "Rome wasn't built in a day".

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:
> Salvete,
> I agree - having a lot of small parcels of land throughout the NR
provinces would be great for all sorts of reasons. Owning land with
a view of actual Roman ruins would be very soul-satisfying.
> Vale bene,
> Helena Galeria
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ti--------us.ann@--------
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] "Land Bill" for Nova Roma
>
>
> Salvete quirites,
>
> With growing interest I have read the mails about land for NR. As
a result
> I have taken the liberty to ask around in the provincia germaniae
superioris,
> if anybody knew about something that could do.
>
> I understand if some people want to own land in the States, but I
personally
> believe, that at least some land in every province or in parts of
the world
> which were under roman rule would bring lots of people from these
parts
> into NR.
>
> I will keep you updated if someone finds something. Please answer
no matter
> if you agree with my view or not, but I find it unnerving to
write mails
> to a list of many hundred people and nobody writes back.
>
> Valete from Basilea, Germania Superior, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] "Land Bill" for Nova Roma
From:	Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:22:40 -0700 (PDT)

<P> How about a subsidiary corp or committee orgainzed
to deal with these issues. Plus it would open up
areas for Nova Romans to work.
<P>
<P>Gaius Geminius Germanus
<P> <B><I>tiberius.ann@--------</I></B>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><TT>Salvete
quirites,<BR><BR>With growing interest I have read the
mails about land for NR. As a result<BR>I have taken
the liberty to ask around in the provincia germaniae
superioris,<BR>if anybody knew about something that
could do.<BR><BR>I understand if some people want to
own land in the States, but I personally<BR>believe,
that at least some land in every province or in parts
of the world<BR>which were under roman rule would
bring lots of people from these parts<BR>into
NR.<BR><BR>I will keep you updated if someone finds
something. Please answer no matter<BR>if you agree
with my view or not, but I find it unnerving to write
mails<BR>to a list of many hundred people and nobody
writes back.<BR><BR>Valete from Basilea, Germania
Superior, Tiberius Annaeus
Otho<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________<BR>E-Mail
for everyone! <A
href="http://www.bluemail.ch/">http://www.bluemail.ch/</A>
powered by Bluewin!<BR><BR><BR><BR></TT><BR>
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Subject:	[novaroma] gens
From:	tekoamxai@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:31:12 -0000

salvete omnes!

i just got through reading the latest issue of "the
eagle". there was a list of things to be discussed.
one of them was the gens system-should it be replaced
with a familia system.

i know nothing about the issues here and would
appreciate some comment.

thanks,
drusilla cassia titiana


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] gens
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:56:24 -0700

Ave,

There has been a detailed discussion on this very topic on the Vedian_Baths list and the NovaRomaLaws list.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: tekoamxai@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: [novaroma] gens

salvete omnes!

i just got through reading the latest issue of "the
eagle". there was a list of things to be discussed.
one of them was the gens system-should it be replaced
with a familia system.

i know nothing about the issues here and would
appreciate some comment.

thanks,
drusilla cassia titiana


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Apology (was One Canadian's Reaction)
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:56:24 -0000

---Salve Procurator Cato:

Your comments, as always, are well-taken; and God/Gods speed with
amendments to our existing laws. They do need work, as they have kept
our hands tied to date.

Raymond Chretien, it seems, is to Jean Chretien, what Billy Carter
was to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter.....the dear relative who is
constantly saying the "wrong thing at the wrong time".

Ahh well...........

You have written many posts on this terrible assault. In every one of
them you have displayed sincere compassion and convictions for
justice, Cato.

You are a great Roman and a great Canadian:)

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, "Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> Salve Propraetrix Pompeia et alii:
>
> The statement about Prime Minister Chretien hoping that Gore
would win the Presidental election was actually made by the former
Canadian Ambassador to the U.S., Raymond Chretien, (the Prime
Minister's nephew) refering to statements that his uncle had
apparently made to him in private. My apology for not making that
clear. It is simply not very smart to make such a statement during an
election in a country that also is your largest trading partner.
Raymond was re-called to Ottawa shortly after opening his mouth in
Washington D.C.
> The statement that Chretien made right after the disaster,
about not being aware of any terrorist cells operating in Canada was
reported in all the major newspapers, Toronto Star, Toronto Sun,
National Post etc. I read at least two, and sometimes three papers a
day. His surprising statement was the source of much discussion by
columnists in the papers.
> As far as the law, I would say that it would be very easy to
pass legislation making it illegal to form terrorist cells or to be a
member of such a cell. End their charitable status. (We are apparently
going to do this much at least.) Arrest and deport or imprison any who
are members or work to raise funds. Protecting the lives of our
citizens must come before the "rights" of such mad criminals. For that
is exactly what they are. And these criminals, by being the terrorists
that they are, have thrown away their rights as far as I am concerned.
They have destroyed their own rights by destroying the rights and
lives of innocent people, or supporting those who do such nightmarish
deeds.
> Please Pompeia, this as well, is simply an attempt to explain
things better, and no reflection on your statements. With all respect
to you.
> Valete, ... Appius Cato
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] "Land Bill" for Nova Roma
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:00:09 -0700

Ave,

Personally I think its way too soon. We have not even had a successful dry run in the collection of revenues.

However, the body that would ultimately be responsible for this decision, I believe, would be the Senate of Nova Roma. Given that according to the Constitution of Nova Roma it is the supreme policy making body.

In my honest opinion, I think we should continue collecting funds for placement of the land fund. And wait to see how the collection of taxes progresses. Because purchasing land and being able to maintain the land is going to be a HUGE endeavor.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Dreesbach
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] "Land Bill" for Nova Roma

<P> How about a subsidiary corp or committee orgainzed
to deal with these issues. Plus it would open up
areas for Nova Romans to work.
<P>
<P>Gaius Geminius Germanus
<P> <B><I>tiberius.ann@--------</I></B>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><TT>Salvete
quirites,<BR><BR>With growing interest I have read the
mails about land for NR. As a result<BR>I have taken
the liberty to ask around in the provincia germaniae
superioris,<BR>if anybody knew about something that
could do.<BR><BR>I understand if some people want to
own land in the States, but I personally<BR>believe,
that at least some land in every province or in parts
of the world<BR>which were under roman rule would
bring lots of people from these parts<BR>into
NR.<BR><BR>I will keep you updated if someone finds
something. Please answer no matter<BR>if you agree
with my view or not, but I find it unnerving to write
mails<BR>to a list of many hundred people and nobody
writes back.<BR><BR>Valete from Basilea, Germania
Superior, Tiberius Annaeus
Otho<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________<BR>E-Mail
for everyone! <A
href="http://www.bluemail.ch/">http://www.bluemail.ch/</A>
powered by Bluewin!<BR><BR><BR><BR></TT><BR>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: America
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:01:08 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Tal123berg@a... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marcus.
> >
> >
> > Allowing a fascist dictator to rule for around 40 years does not
> seem
> > to coincide with my definition of "wiping out". Franco's regime was
> so
> > negative for Spain because of that; it meant the exclusion of Spain
> > from international circles (particularly from the European scene),
> but
> > it also meant that Spain was "safe" from Communism (no Marshall plan
> > needed here), and that it was out of the competition for
> international
> > economic preponderance (good for other European nations as well).
> >
> > All that is history now, and I am a firm believer that we should not
> > blame today's men for the faults of their grandparents. But if we
> start
> > to wave around the Marshall paln debt, I thought I should make clear
> > that not ALL of Western Europe benefited from it.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> > Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> > Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> > Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> > Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
> >
>
> Salve Gnaee!
>
> All I wanted to point out is that there were good reasons for
> President Truman, the tru(e) architect of the Marshall Plan, not to
> include Spain "at the time" in this effort to fill the existing
> dollar gap and to rebuild the European industry base. Someone else
> already pointed out that the attitude towards Franco changed over
> time.
>
> But with this ongoing debate here drifting ever farther away from the
> established list policy, let us take a look at how Roma antiqua would
> have treated something like the terrible terrorist events of
> September 11th (our Western societies take some pride in having their
> cultural roots in Roma antiqua (and Grecia for that matter)). This is
> for instance how Sulla reacted to the Mass murder of Italian citizens
> in Asia minor and the non cooperating Athens.
>
> Here is a recount of what the fabled Sulla did to that city:
>
> "When they had thrown down the wall, and made all level betwixt the
> Piraic and Sacred Gate, about midnight Sylla entered the breach, with
> all the terrors of trumpets and cornets sounding, with the triumphant
> shout and cry of an army let loose to spoil and slaughter, and
> scouring through the streets with swords drawn. There was no
> numbering the slain; the amount is to this day conjectured only from
> the space of ground overflowed with blood. For without mentioning the
> execution done in other quarters of the city, the blood that was shed
> about the market-place spread over the whole Ceramicus within the
> Double-gate, and, according to most writers, passed through the gate
> and overflowed the suburb. Nor did the multitudes which fell thus
> exceed the number of those who, out of pity and love for their
> country which they believed was now finally to perish, slew
> themselves; the best of them, through despair of their country's
> surviving, dreading themselves to survive, expecting neither humanity
> nor moderation in Sylla."
>
> The US has so far been prudent und humane in its response and I have
> to congratulate them for it. I must say personally I did not think
> that President Bush had this in him (although to have called for
> a "crusade" is outright stupidity and plays into the hands of the
> terrorists).
>
> The US now has the sympathy and support of the whole civilised world
> (including most muslim countries). It should stay on course and not
> risk it by steering into the waters of:
>
> "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in
> brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I
> believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time
> trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the
> treatment."
>
> This smacks too much of a Sulla way of thinking and it would in my
> unlearned judgement be a tragedy if the US took this as a model for
> its policies.
>
> Marcus Heinz (Marcus Marcius Rex)

Salvete,

Lets Not forget the Result of Sulla's retaking of Athens. Roman Power
endured for another 500 years, and in all that time Athens NEVER sided
with those who murdered Roman citizens again.

Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: Bless America Project - PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY
From:	scriba_forum@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:01:43 -0000

--- Salvete Omnes: I have been asked to forward this as a deem it
appropriate. I feel this might be of interest to some in the Pagan
Community of Nova Roma.

The following seems to be a way in which the Pagan Community can
express their sorrow, dreams, etc. in light of the recent tragedies in
the U.S.

Quite often, when the expressions "multifaith" or "ecumenical" are
tossed around, our Pagan bretheren are forgotton.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix Canada Orientalis
Nova Roma

In HellenicPagan@--------, Phillip Lindman <plindman@--------> wrote:
> Body: The Pagan Unity Campaign announces today the start of a new
> project that deals with the use of the gender specific "God" in
> alleged interfaith ceremonies that discludes Pagans or any faith
> other than Christian, Muslim or Jewish paths.
>
> Our goal is to do this in a manner that is respectful, non-divisive,
> and supportive of all Americans. To achieve this goal, we have
> developed a new "Goddess Bless America" T shirt that you can buy via
> our online store. Also, we have developed a postcard campaign that
> expresses our diverse beliefs during this tragedy.
>
> However, this campaign is different from past PUC activities and
will
> include certain members of the mainstream media, specifically those
> who have come out against Falwell's hate rhetoric.
>
> We ask all Pagans to send postcards to the below addresses that read
> "_________ Bless America" where each Pagan will write the name of
the
> Deity they work with the most. If you are a devotee of Sekhmet,
write
> in "Sekhmet." If you work with three Dieties, send in three cards!
If
> you only deal with the "feminine", write in "Goddess."
>
> We also ask you to add "Pagan Unity Campaign" and
> "paganunitycampaign.org" to each card so the addressees can see that
> all cards are from a single source.
>
> Please use postcards that have a picture from your local area. Cards
> with a local museum, your city's skyline or "Welcome To Florida"
type
> cards are also encouraged. We want to show that these cards come
from
> all over America and from individual people. This is especially
> important now that we are including select individuals of the
> mainstream media. However, please feel free to add any other
> politician or media figure to your list, but PUC is focusing on the
> below five more maximum impact.
>
> Since the September 11 attacks killed almost a thousand people from
> other nations, we invite non-US Pagans to join us in this project.
>
> The mail date for this is October 2nd, the next Full Moon. We need
to
> be respectful to the victims, their families and all Americans and
> allow some time for the pain to ease. Remember, if we cannot be
> supportive of all Americans, this is not worth doing. However, we
> need to do this soon before more egregious behavior can occur. We
> have a lot of work ahead to make thisdeadline.
>
> The Suggested Mail-To List...
>
> President Bush
> 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
> Washington, DC 20500
>
> Bill Maher
> Politically Incorrect
> CBS Television City
> 7800 Beverly Blvd.
> Los Angeles, CA 90036
>
> Bill O'Reilly
> The O'Reilly Factor
> Fox News Viewer Services
> 1211 Avenue of the Americas
> New York, NY 10036
>
> Geraldo Rivera
> Rivera Live
> CNBC
> 2200 Fletcher Ave.
> Fort Lee, NJ 07024
>
> Diane Sawyer
> Good Morning America
> ABC Television
> 77 W 66th St.
> Rm 100.
> New York, NY 10023
>
> For complete details on the Bless America Project, surf to -
> http://www.paganunitycampaign.org/blessamerica
>
> To buy a "Goddess Bless America" T-shirt, surf to -
> http://www.cafepress.com/pucpac
>
> For complete details on the PUC PAC, surf to -
> http://www.paganunitycampaign.org/
>
> For interviews or other media requests, please mail the staff at -
> media@--------
>
> "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a
> Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
> -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797) signed by John Adams
>
> ***End Press Release***

=====
Email: plindman@--------
AIM: MrLindman || Yahoo: PLindman

__________________________________________________
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--- End forwarded message ---


Subject:	[novaroma] Ohio Nova Roma Get-Together
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:21:23 -0700 (PDT)

Friends, Romans, Countrymen!
I appologize in advance for taking so long to get
this out. Between finalizing a divorce, and being put
on high alert for the past two weeks, I have been
quite busy. The gathering in Ohio on October 13 is
still on. It will be held at Grigg's Reservoir, in
Columbus, Ohio from 10:00 am til 4:00 pm. I have
decided to make several changes to our original plans.
This event will now be more of a fellowship than a
public event. As the new Legate of this Regio, it is
my wishes to meet people from not only my Regio, but
the rest of the Provincia, and anyone abroad with no
plans for the weekend.
It will be a pot luck picnic. Everyone is asked
to bring a plate or bowl of something, plus the
necessary eating utensils. IF you are planning to
come and wish to announce what you plan to bring, then
please feel free. Otherwise, we could all be eating A
LOT of potato salad. ;o)
We will play games (of Roman nature) talk, tell
lies, and enjoy the company of each other. After 4:00
anyone wishing, is invited to travel with us to a
local Italian restaurante which has a very nice
Romanesqu atmostphere about it. I am also pleased to
announce our beloved Provincial Governor himself will
be in attendance, as well as other noted officials.
In the Spring, we will have a more formal gathering,
and invite the public, and roll out all the stops.
For this first time, I decided to just keep it low
key, and give everyone a chance to meet one-another,
and talk about ideas for more events throughout our
beloved Provincia. Because of weather possibilities,
Roman attire is optional. :o) We will however have
these lovely name tags for everyone to wear. :o)

The points of contact for this event are myself
Marcus Africanus (Shane Evans) 740-967-9131
and my Corniculus Major Centurion M Bianchius Antonius
imperialreign@-------- 614 485 0593.

Feel free to contact either of us (coughGreggcough)
with any questions, comments, notification of what
you're bringing, etc, etc, etc.

Legatus M. Scipio Africanus

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Nova Roma
From:	"Gaius Cornelius Publicus" <gaius-cornelius-publicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:13:51 -0700

[snippus maximus (yeah, I know what work farms & ranches can be, especially
since slaves are kinda politically incorrect)]
>
>Again, land will be a difficult prospect for us. Even if we were to
>pool say, $35,000 in the next five years, the chances of a majority
>of us agreeing on any one location are slim indeed. It is difficult
>to think of any place in the world where a majrity of the Citizens
>wouldn't feel they were being cheated out of their money by not being
>able to "use" the land.
>
Perhaps we should approach the problem from a different angle.

Maybe a web registry of NR Lands and let cives who want to register their
current or future land as NR land. Could have degrees of "publicness" - for
example a person with larger tract of land could open it up for local or
regional meetings and campouts. This kinda follows the model of an amateur
astronomy group I am in (people with country land let others in the group
come out and set up telescopes on a nice concrete pad they installed for
just that purpose in a field away from all lights and obstructions)...I also
have hippy friends that let their friends camp on their rural lands whenever
asked.

Publicus


Subject:	[novaroma] Spain
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:59:34 -0400 (EDT)

Legatus / Triumvir Gnaeus Salix Astur;

No, Master Astur, neither you nor your country owe me a thing.
Friendship between individuals brings it's own mutually agreeable
obligations, and nations owe other nations only what is agreed to by
formal agreement or treaty.

I simply find that when I (and usually others) are critical of another
country's actions without dwelling there, and being familiar with the
culture found in that country, one tends to judge others by the same
ruler, that he / she uses in his own nation. This can be a real
problem, as we have recently seen, since there can be, and very often
is, an extremely large difference between the view of people of
different cultural, geographic and religious backgrounds.

Just from my limited knowledge of the Islamic Faith and reading the
Koran, my explanation of some differing philosophies to a member of the
Greek Orthodox Church recently completely confused the poor individual
to whom I was explaining my views, and who indicated to me that "I
sounded like I was sympathic to the attackers of my country!!!!" With
that kind of response to a question asked of me, I hang up my attempts
to be a diplomat. I realize that such a venue is not my particular
forte!!!!!!!

My gentle reminder of the past things that the U.S. has done, was best
laid out by our Canadian friend (on which I cannot improve) that was
posted here a few days ago, and which I recommend again for anyone
interested, with my thanks, for his thoughts being brought to this list.

No, Master Astur, you owe me or mine nothing, except perhaps that you
may not understand everything that we do here in my country, since our
cultures are so different. I have lived in Spain for two years on your
economy, in a Spanish house, in a Spanish neighborhood, and have dealt
extensively with the Spanish people in everyday life. Even so, I could
not bring myself to be critical of how your government worked, since
almost daily I saw and heard tidbits which were a puzzle to me, and when
the answers to these puzzles were explained, I found these answers to be
perfectly reasonable from the view of the Spanish people, as a whole.
Sometimes the small missing part of knowledge or piece of information
changes the whole picture of what is going on in the world in whch we
find ourselves. Of course, as I grow older, I also find that I am less
sure of anything in a hard and fast sense, since there is almost always
some further piece of information which needs to be introduced into any
question of national import. A weakness, I suppose that those of
younger years do not have, and which has only grown on me in the last 30
years or so.

Some time ago I wrote to this list regarding making decisions, and being
critical of them when one does not have all the available information.
Since I felt, that I would never be in possssion of all the information
which made up the decisions of the Spanish Government, I decided not to
be critical of it and simply enjoy my stay there among a unique and
essentially happy and hospitable people. I found that this idea, while
some may label it as "sticking one's head in the sand" enabled me to
enjoy my stay there, to make friends instead of enemies, and pursue much
more effectively the questions that arose about the differences between
our two cultures.

However each to his own. No sir, you owe me nothing, perhaps it is I
who owe you for the opportunity to say these words on this list. As
others have said this idea may be off-topic in some ways, but in others
(such as the Roman Virtues) it may well be very much on-topic, as it
seems to me, that criticism of another's country, ideas, and
discussions, unless extremely pointed, are best dealt with in generosity
and understanding, and with the idea that "honey catches more flies than
salt."

This has been the plea on this list for a very long time (over three
years) and we have still not mastered the apparent, and very difficult
art of it.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma Land
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 04:58:11 -0400 (EDT)

Nova Roma Citizens;

Actually there is a small land fund set aside in last year's Annual NR
Budget, which will again very soon be under review for next year's
budget proposal. It's not much, considering land prices currently, but
it is a beginning.

In my humble view, the determination about land anywhere, will have to
be seriously laid aside, except for dreams, (which all are encouraged to
indulge in) until sufficient funds for even the annual taxes on donated
/ purchased land are aquired.

Certainly the ideas of land somewhere in the original Roman Empire is a
thoughful and entertaining idea. The idea of several places on the
different continents where we have citizens is also appealing. The
offering of donated land has been made in the past by citizens who then
have left NR for a variety of reasons. This possibility raises legal
and practical questions about the donation of land to Nova Roma.
However, the old bugaboos about the following, that have been brought up
before, are still there:

--Initial Costs / Donation;

--Taxes;

--Guardianship (against the inevitable vandalism, break-in and homeless
visitation);

--Upkeep (estate care, painting, repairs, improvements, etc.);

--Availability (accessability and environment);

--Location ( Requirements:---Must have, Should have, Nice to have);

There are any number of places just here in the state of Connecticut,
U.S. alone which would be suitable for a small local presence. Almost
all of these have buildings which could be used and improved upon. The
prices are very reasonable, and a few are available as a result of
foreclosure, for the mere payment of back taxes. However, as pointed
out previously some time ago, these places are under scrutiny from those
who have ready cash to invest, and if these places are not taken up by
those so blessed; any consideration on our part to seriusly look at such
a parcel of land should be undertaken carefully and with the services of
an independent land appraiser.

While Censor Sulla is certainly correct that the Senate will make the
final decisions under our present Constitution, it would seem to me that
an independent committee should be formed to discuss and determine a
suggested list of items (including the above list) and formulate
proposals to the Senate for consideration, when we have suitable
funding, and when we have located and defined specific land parcels for
consideration, and when the details, suggestions, ideas, and comments
have all been sifted. To that end, since there have been so many good
ideas fielded here in regard to this topic, perhaps a special list (A
Homeland List) should be established and the ideas on the Nova Roma List
having to do with a homeland, be transferred there to be added to and
considered by the various interested citizens, in order to save these
ideas. A List Scribae could be appointed to place / transfer the ideas
proposed here on this list to the Homeland List so that they will not be
forgotten.

The Homeland idea is a good one and a dream that can in fact come true.
But before it does, it will require the detailed research, and hard work
of some Nova Romans who are capable, available, and who have support in
the financial, physical, and practical aspects of Land aquisition. This
I do not believe is a negative view, but rather an immenently practical
one, suggested as a current landowner, Ideas are fun, and easily
indulged in, but determination, concurrence, and hard work will
determine the goal completed, as in most things here in Nova Roma, and
at the moment those vital components have not yet begun to be
formulated.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Nationalism (was Re: [novaroma] European Reaction)
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:54:09 -0000

Salve cives, et salve druso.

Regarding your message I stand in a twofold position.

On one hand I agree with you wholeheartedly on disliking the logic of
those who say that the U.S. somehow deserve what happened.

I've seen enough of those who say that they take the same distance to
a government than to a terrorist group, or those who
somehow "explain" that a terrorist action, even if it is wrong, could
have been avoided if a government hadn't done some wrong. There are
enough of these people in my country.

The real propaganda for a terrorist organisation is not the fanatical
message, which is only for "insider use". It's these people who, with
their sophism, sow sympathy with criminals. "Yes", they say, "the
massacre of the WTC was wrong, and I mourn the deaths, but
intellectually I see how this is only deserved for what happened with
the palestinians/Nicaraguan Contra/McCarthism/Native
americans/British loyalists/hussites/Carthaginians".

To talk about another kind of terrorism, here in Spain we have our
local sort. The "E.T.A." is a basque separatist terrorist group which
has a long history of killings, kidnappings and other "actions". The
enormous majority of spaniards have a great hatred of this group, and
it is another undoubtable case where there is no doubt of where
democracy rule of law and human rights lie. There is a very small
amount of fanatics which support them, but some others "explain" them
and "take the same distance from then than from the government".
Their argumentations are quite convolved, but their ulterior motives
are always their support to the basque nationalism.

Funnily enough, the american media seems to take a lax stance towards
terrorism if it doesn't affect them personally. CNN, which has no
compunction of rightly calling Bin Laden a "terrorist", never uses
that word with ETA. They prefer to use words like "armed group"
or "fighters". They also make statements like "they were blamed for
800 deaths", "neutrally" doubting the integrity of our legal system.
Another media, like "National Geographic" take sympathy on "fighters
who are forced to be in jail far away from home". Change the names
for those of Bin Laden and Al Quaeda and you would have the sort of
stamements that would enrage you, and those are the kind of
statements we are not making.

On the other hand there is a statement of yours I cannot support:

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Cable" <hendrik.meuleman@p...> wrote:
>
>
> I make a point of staying OUT of the internal affairs of other
> Macronations, and have NEVER made a public comment advising others
on
> who to select, and expect the same courtsey from others. As far as
I'm
> concerned NonAmerican citizens have three choices. Ask your
> Macronation to apply to the US government for admission as a state,
> Move to the USA and apply for US citizenship, or shut up.

One of the most important reasons for the greatness of your country,
and of our support for it, is its liberty of expression. My not
possesing the american citizenship is not, IMO enough reason to deny
me any freedom of speech, and I didn't read anything like that in
your Constitution or Billof Rights.

I am sorry, but I do not understand why anybody would deem
discourteous an opinion about a political event (like an election),
if it is nor discourteously worded.

To change the theme, one of the small recent cultural differences
between america and europe seems to be the american's worry
about "political correctness", the underlying philosophy of which
seems to be that if a statement could hurt the particular feelings of
a group, then this statement would be wrong. Although this policy has
been good preventing evils like the the use of openly racist language
its exaggeration seems to lead to greater evils. Impeding the display
of native american archeological items because it "is against the
sensibility of their descendants", for example, would be one of these
exaggerations. The danger ahead seems to me to pass from a society
where "personal liberty ends where the personal liberty of others
begins" to a society where " personal liberty ends where the
particular concept of sensibility of some group begins".

Sorry if this statement about a great country has offended any of
its citizens.

Vale

Marcus Salix Saverius


Subject:	[novaroma] Spain & U.S.
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:58:17 -0000

Salve cives, et salve, Marcus Audens.

Although this conversation is between you and Astur, I am a spaniard,
and know Astur personally (he is actually part of my family). So I
feel entitled to express my views, which are in fact quite similar to
his.

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Legatus / Triumvir Gnaeus Salix Astur;
> No, Master Astur, neither you nor your country owe me a thing.
> Friendship between individuals brings it's own mutually agreeable
> obligations, and nations owe other nations only what is agreed to by
> formal agreement or treaty.

True. And in this case, formal agreements and treaties state great
mutual obligations. But apart from written contracts, there is a
mutual sharing of goals and values, and a common opinion in both
populations that we are "friends". This doesn't stop both our
countries from spying on each other, sadly. But it does help them not
to take umbrage when some case is found out.

> I simply find that when I (and usually others) are critical of
another
> country's actions without dwelling there, and being familiar with
the
> culture found in that country, one tends to judge others by the same
> ruler, that he / she uses in his own nation. This can be a real
> problem, as we have recently seen, since there can be, and very
often
> is, an extremely large difference between the view of people of
> different cultural, geographic and religious backgrounds.

Well, one can hardly not agree to this. There is much to your
statement. But the need to "make a simplified scientific model" of
another peoples and cultures in order to judge them is always there.
For example, it is historically important now to ascertain how the
muslim integrist movement thinks and reacts, not only in order to
judge part of it but as a means to end our conflict with them.

The mere concept of "ethics" compared to "moral" states that there
are things that are "inmoral", that is, wrong in some cultures and
environments, and things that are "unethical", that is, wrong in
every culture and environment.

Conceiving the existence of such a "metamoral" is audacious, but also
a basic necessity for convivence. And it also is a source for
conflict. Many cultures see the discrimination of women, religious
intolerance, disregard for human rights or forms of authoritarian
government as peculiarities of their cultural morality. On other
easier grounds, I think that america and europe should find a common
ground in some matters in order to ease their convivence, and
dialogue and mutual criticism is necessary for this.

But I have faith in the existence of a universal common sense and
need for peace and mutual respect. The signs for it are always there.
For example, recently I have read the interesting opinion of spanish
diplomats in pakistan about the taliban psychology. It is a really
interesting insight which I am sure american authorities and media
also have. In it they express their amazement and joy at the mullahs
petition to Bin Laden that he should abandon their country of his own
will (they, and all their acquaintances, had expected something much
more radical and confrontational). Of course, both our countries
rightly see this as void and insufficient. But it shows that even
those fanatics who would like to die for their beliefs and never have
changed their minds retain some human common sense.

But I digress. In my opinion, U.S. citizenship is not a sine qua non
precondition for the liberty of expression regarding its inner
politics. I see how a great knowledge only attainable through
long "on the spot" experience would be necessary to do so without
erring. But the candid, respectful voicing of constructive if
erroneous opinion should be allowed and approved, if only as a means
of ascertaining foreign vox populi (and because of mere principle).

Besides, I believe that, as a whole, spaniards are much better
prepared to judge americans than the other way round. Not because of
any superiority on our side, of course! But I have known many
americans who did not realise how so much of their country is
irradiated to the "outer world" in so many ways (throughout our whole
lives) and who were surprised at how well they were known abroad. It
is something the most popular culture in the world will just have to
live with.

This, of course, only applies in general terms to the majority of the
population (who hasn't lived in spain for two years). I have had the
privilege of briefly taking part (mostly listening) in conversations
with some high ranking US and NATO military, and was agreeably
surprised at seeing some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable
people I've known of. These individuals did show much multicultural
savvy.

> Just from my limited knowledge of the Islamic Faith and reading the
> Koran, my explanation of some differing philosophies to a member of
the
> Greek Orthodox Church recently completely confused the poor
individual
> to whom I was explaining my views, and who indicated to me that "I
> sounded like I was sympathic to the attackers of my country!!!!"
With
> that kind of response to a question asked of me, I hang up my
attempts
> to be a diplomat. I realize that such a venue is not my particular
> forte!!!!!!!
>
> My gentle reminder of the past things that the U.S. has done, was
best
> laid out by our Canadian friend (on which I cannot improve) that was
> posted here a few days ago, and which I recommend again for anyone
> interested, with my thanks, for his thoughts being brought to this
list.
>
> No, Master Astur, you owe me or mine nothing, except perhaps that
you
> may not understand everything that we do here in my country, since
our
> cultures are so different. I have lived in Spain for two years on
your
> economy, in a Spanish house, in a Spanish neighborhood, and have
dealt
> extensively with the Spanish people in everyday life. Even so, I
could
> not bring myself to be critical of how your government worked, since
> almost daily I saw and heard tidbits which were a puzzle to me, and
when
> the answers to these puzzles were explained, I found these answers
to be
> perfectly reasonable from the view of the Spanish people, as a
whole.
> Sometimes the small missing part of knowledge or piece of
information
> changes the whole picture of what is going on in the world in whch
we
> find ourselves. Of course, as I grow older, I also find that I am
less
> sure of anything in a hard and fast sense, since there is almost
always
> some further piece of information which needs to be introduced into
any
> question of national import. A weakness, I suppose that those of
> younger years do not have, and which has only grown on me in the
last 30
> years or so.
>
> Some time ago I wrote to this list regarding making decisions, and
being
> critical of them when one does not have all the available
information.
> Since I felt, that I would never be in possssion of all the
information
> which made up the decisions of the Spanish Government, I decided
not to
> be critical of it and simply enjoy my stay there among a unique and
> essentially happy and hospitable people. I found that this idea,
while
> some may label it as "sticking one's head in the sand" enabled me to
> enjoy my stay there, to make friends instead of enemies, and pursue
much
> more effectively the questions that arose about the differences
between
> our two cultures.

Yes, this is a common occurence. It is funny that some foreigners who
come to live to Spain think this way till the point when they begin
to think like spaniards and begin not to understand their original
countries.

But, as an american who has lived in Spain you will understand our
surprise at the concern in the U.S. about the statements of european
media and individuals. Of course I see that the media should not take
a sympathetic or lax stance or language towards terrorism. But
distance often breeds misunderstanding, and this is normal. Some
popular american media are talking about spanish terrorism when
trying to be neutral in a manner that is hurtful for us and would be
deemed so by you if it referred to Al Quaeda as, for example, "armed
pro-islamist group", etc.(I add a link for your pleasure).

http://cnn.looksmart.com/r_search?
l&izch&qc=&col=cnni&qm=0&st=1&nh=10&rf=1&venue=all&keyword=&qp=&search
=0&key=ETA

> However each to his own. No sir, you owe me nothing, perhaps it is
I
> who owe you for the opportunity to say these words on this list. As
> others have said this idea may be off-topic in some ways, but in
others
> (such as the Roman Virtues) it may well be very much on-topic, as it
> seems to me, that criticism of another's country, ideas, and
> discussions, unless extremely pointed, are best dealt with in
generosity
> and understanding, and with the idea that "honey catches more flies
than
> salt."
>
> This has been the plea on this list for a very long time (over three
> years) and we have still not mastered the apparent, and very
difficult
> art of it.

Well, this list has indeed been a means of getting to know the
american mind better for Astur and me! At least we both think we know
you better just from continuously reading from american cives.

Devotio Hispanica semper vivat.

Marcus Salix Saverius


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] gens
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:51:34 -0400

Salvete;

The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work actually much
more closely to how the ancient familiae work. In fact, that might be the
best way to proceed for now; simply change the term we use from "gens" to
"familia" and leave everything else-- the way they operate, who is a member,
etc.-- exactly the way it is.

Hmmm... any thoughts on that? An amendment to change the Constitution,
simply replacing "gens" with "familia"?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tekoamxai@-------- [mailto:tekoamxai@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:31 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] gens
>
>
> salvete omnes!
>
> i just got through reading the latest issue of "the
> eagle". there was a list of things to be discussed.
> one of them was the gens system-should it be replaced
> with a familia system.
>
> i know nothing about the issues here and would
> appreciate some comment.
>
> thanks,
> drusilla cassia titiana
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma Land
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:50:24 +0200

>Nova Roma Citizens;
>
>
>While Censor Sulla is certainly correct that the Senate will make the
>final decisions under our present Constitution, it would seem to me that
>an independent committee should be formed to discuss and determine a
>suggested list of items (including the above list) and formulate
>proposals to the Senate for consideration, when we have suitable
>funding, and when we have located and defined specific land parcels for
>consideration, and when the details, suggestions, ideas, and comments
>have all been sifted. To that end, since there have been so many good
>ideas fielded here in regard to this topic, perhaps a special list (A
>Homeland List) should be established and the ideas on the Nova Roma List
>having to do with a homeland, be transferred there to be added to and
>considered by the various interested citizens, in order to save these
>ideas. A List Scribae could be appointed to place / transfer the ideas
>proposed here on this list to the Homeland List so that they will not be
>forgotten.
>
>Respectfully;
>Marcus Audens
>
>
>Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Salve Omnes!

I support this proposal! I also think it in some ways supports my own ideas
about two special Quaestors who wopuld be responsible for the Land Fund.
But that can wait.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV...Tibunate
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:51:01 US/Central

Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Pompeiae Corneliae omnibusque SPD

> The draft you presented looks good. Just a couple of things, however:
> it does not give a time frame for intercessio. I believe now a
> tribune has 48 hours to pronounce intercessio on a given action by
> another magistrate.

The constitution does not currently mandate a time frame for the use of
intercessio by any magistrate. The first Lex Vedia de Ratione Edictum
specifies a 72 hour limit for any magistrate to issue intercessio, but only in
the case of edicta.

The proposed amendment mandates a law that specifies the process by which
tribuni may issue intercessio, which would include such things as time frames.

] 3. The issuance and function of Intercessio shall be defined
] according to procedures described by legislation passed
] by Comitia.

Should this amendment pass, I intend to promulgate a plebiscitum which allows
72 hours for any tribunus to use intercessio, regardless of purpose, and an
additional 72 hours for all other tribuni to state their support for or
disagreement with that intercessio.

Valete


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV: The Tribunate
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:56:36 -0400

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:46 PM
>
> Let me first congratulate you for this final draft for a reformed
> tribunate. It will surely bring this institution closer to its
> historical duties, which I think is a good thing. I just have a couple
> of questions, if you don't mind:

Not at all; that's why I posted it while questions and comments could still
be incorporated into the voted-on version.

> > ] e. To call the Senate to order;
>
> What does this paragraph exactly mean? Will the Tribuni be able to set
> the agenda for the senatorial meeting?

That is up to the Senate, as they control their own internal rules. There is
some talk of making just such a change in connection with a change to the
rules for the Comitia Plebis, as a matter of fact, but that's more a job for
the Tribunes to explain, methinks. As it is, this is simply a carry-over
from the current phrasing in the Constitution.

> > ] f. To call the comitia plebis tributa to order;
>
> I see that there is no change to our actual situation on this point.
> Are you planning another reform here?

There are a couple of options being discussed. As I indicated, perhaps our
good Tribunes might speak to this particular issue.

> > ] g. To administer the law;
>
> What does this exactly mean?

Basically, it allows the Tribunes to conduct trials and other legal
proceedings before the Comitia Plebis. It's the same wording used to allow
the Praetors and Aediles to do the same thing before the Comitiae Centuriata
and Populi. Not including it for the Tribunes was an omission originally
(since they should very well have the power to conduct trials in the Comitia
Plebis, when called for by the law), and this is simply correcting that
omission. The exact mechanisms by which the Comitia Plebis would be called
by the tribunes to exercise legal functions is still in the works, just as
they are for the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV...Tibunate
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:02:39 -0400

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: trog99@-------- [mailto:trog99@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:31 PM
>
> The draft you presented looks good. Just a couple of things, however:
> it does not give a time frame for intercessio. I believe now a
> tribune has 48 hours to pronounce intercessio on a given action by
> another magistrate.

Right now, the time limit on pronouncing intercessio on an _edict_ is 48
hours. The time limit on intercessio on other actions is never anywhere
explicitly stated (some might recall Fortunatus and I going back and forth
in endless debate on this question back in March, I believe). Such details,
I think, are most properly covered in leges, rather than amendments; there
are simply too many conditions, too many circumstances that must be covered,
for such to be included neatly in the Constitution.

I agree with your reasoning that 48 hours is probably a bit crunched for an
increased number of tribunes. But for now, rather than getting bogged down
in this particular detail, I'd like to get the general framework in place.

There will definitely be a more comprehensive "intercessio definition lex"
coming forth in the near future, defining time limits, venues, etc. for
vetoes not only by the tribunes but all other magistrates as well. Indeed,
the amendment as currently written, calls for such mechanisms to be defined
by lex.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV...Tibunate
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:05:42 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: labienus@-------- [mailto:labienus@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 4:51 AM
>
> Should this amendment pass, I intend to promulgate a plebiscitum which
allows
> 72 hours for any tribunus to use intercessio, regardless of purpose, and
an
> additional 72 hours for all other tribuni to state their support for or
> disagreement with that intercessio.

See what happens when emails get sent at the same time? Great minds and all
that...

I'd like to see such a regulation extended to _all_ forms of veto, though;
not just the tribunicial intercessio. Just to keep things consistent.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] gens
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:40:30 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Flavi Vedi,

> The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work actually much
> more closely to how the ancient familiae work. In fact, that might be the
> best way to proceed for now; simply change the term we use from "gens" to
> "familia" and leave everything else-- the way they operate, who is a member,
> etc.-- exactly the way it is.

We should also remove the exclusive lock that a paterfamilias has
on a particular nomen. Currently, a nomen can be reused only if an
agnomen is attached, leading to overly long names.

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] gens
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:46:33 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus [mailto:haase@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:41 AM
>
> We should also remove the exclusive lock that a paterfamilias has
> on a particular nomen. Currently, a nomen can be reused only if an
> agnomen is attached, leading to overly long names.

How would you distinguish between one familia and another?

Vale,

FVG


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] gens
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:47:46 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,

> > We should also remove the exclusive lock that a paterfamilias has
> > on a particular nomen. Currently, a nomen can be reused only if an
> > agnomen is attached, leading to overly long names.
>
> How would you distinguish between one familia and another?

You could always look at the Album Gentium. That can be done in less
than a minute.

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: gens
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:50:25 -0000

---

Salve Senator Octavius et Omnes:

In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Flavi Vedi,
>
> > The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work
actually much
> > more closely to how the ancient familiae work. In fact, that might
be the
> > best way to proceed for now; simply change the term we use from
"gens" to
> > "familia" and leave everything else-- the way they operate, who is
a member,
> > etc.-- exactly the way it is.

Pompeia: I agree with this, as I have stated before. I honestly
don't see the need for much else right now with respect to gens
reforms; I think we have other priorities, to make a long story short
and to avoid repeating what I've said on other lists.

I would like to see an increase in standards/accountability for
Pater/Materfamilias, but I think this could be done by the censors
without implementing major structural reforms.

>
> We should also remove the exclusive lock that a paterfamilias has
> on a particular nomen. Currently, a nomen can be reused only if an
> agnomen is attached, leading to overly long names.

Pompeia: I'll have to think about this one; Overly long names are a
pain, but how are you going to avoid confusion when you have three
gens Pompeia, for example? Or am I misunderstanding you, Senator?
Admittedly, I do suffer from acute "brain drain" after a night shift
or two (grin)

Bene vale,
Pompeia
>
> Vale, O.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Changing the Constitution VI: Familiae et Gentes
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:06:45 -0400

Salvete omnes

Given the current discussion regarding gentes and familiae, might I suggest
the following:

-----

Lex Vedia de Familiae et Gentes

I. This Lex Vedia de Familiae et Gentes is hereby enacted to correct the
misapplication of the term "gens" for the basic family structure used within
Nova Roma, and replace it with the more historically accurate term
"familia".

II. The Constitution of Nova Roma is hereby amended so that all instances
where the term "gens" is used (including the plural form "gentes") shall be
altered to read "familia" (plural "familiae").

III. All laws, edicta, and other official documents extant at the time of
the passage and ratification of this lex are hereby amended so that all
instances where the term "gens" is used (including the plural form "gentes")
shall be altered to read "familia" (plural "familiae").

IV. All official publications (including but not limited to any official
websites, mailing lists, etc.) wherein the term "gens" is used (including
the plural form "gentes") shall be altered to read "familia" (plural
"familiae").

V. This lex shall not be construed to block the implementation of a system
of gentes based on the ancient model at some future date, through
appropriate legal mechanisms.

VI. Prior to ratification of paragraph II of this lex by the Senate, no
provisions of this lex shall come into effect.

-----

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV...Tibunate
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:21:14 US/Central

Salvete Consul Vedi et Quirites

> I'd like to see such a regulation extended to _all_ forms of veto, though;
> not just the tribunicial intercessio. Just to keep things consistent.

I agree. However, assuming the amendment passes, the tribunician veto will be
a special case, since it will operate differently than the veto of other
magistracies.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution VI: Familiae et Gentes
From:	Piparskeggr - Venator <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:33:47 -0500

Ave,

Hmmm, from Gens to Famila, hmmm...

Would this mean I could be a Capo d'Famila? ,-)

--
=========================================
In Hilaritas
- Venator
Cives Nova Romana et Capo Ulleria
Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html

Aut cervisae aut nihil!
(either beer, or nothing!)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] gens
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:53:09 +0200

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work actually much
> more closely to how the ancient familiae work. In fact, that might be the
> best way to proceed for now; simply change the term we use from "gens" to
> "familia" and leave everything else-- the way they operate, who is a member,
> etc.-- exactly the way it is.
>
> Hmmm... any thoughts on that? An amendment to change the Constitution,
> simply replacing "gens" with "familia"?

Salve, Flavi Vedi Germanice.

The gentes of today are indeed more similar to the familii than the
gentes of Roma Antiqua, but considering how they encompass may different
cognomen, they also share common traits with the gentes. As the
citizenship application form states, "Identifies branch within gens".
Different cognomen signifies familii within a gens, and should therefore
be interpreted that way by the legislation and constitution as well, in
my opinion.

It's quite easy to do, as well. The first citizen with a given cognomen
within a gens is the paterfamilias of that familia, and all paterfamilii
report to their patergentilia(?), who is the citizen within the gens
who's been a member of said gens the longest. Change all constitutional
and legislative references from "paterfamilias" to "patergentilias", and
then allow each gens to choose how the familia are going to be
integrated into the gens.

This wouldn't diminish the influence of the paterfamilii of today, only
give them the added possibility of establishing a firm internal
structure within their gentes, as well as provide a basis for further
legislation regarding the internal structure of familii.

Just my thoughts on the matter, I've got a feeling I'm getting myself
into a discussion which have been going on for quite some time, and may
be reiterating issues already spoken on the Vedian Bath list, but this
is how I believe things should (or at least could) be solved in an
amicable fashion.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Senior Legatus Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Spain
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:04:11 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, honorabilis Marce Minuci Audens.

--- jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
> Legatus / Triumvir Gnaeus Salix Astur;
>
> No, Master Astur, neither you nor your country owe me a thing.
> Friendship between individuals brings it's own mutually agreeable
> obligations, and nations owe other nations only what is agreed to by
> formal agreement or treaty.
>
> I simply find that when I (and usually others) are critical of
> another
> country's actions without dwelling there, and being familiar with the
> culture found in that country, one tends to judge others by the same
> ruler, that he / she uses in his own nation. This can be a real
> problem, as we have recently seen, since there can be, and very often
> is, an extremely large difference between the view of people of
> different cultural, geographic and religious backgrounds.
>
> Just from my limited knowledge of the Islamic Faith and reading the
> Koran, my explanation of some differing philosophies to a member of
> the
> Greek Orthodox Church recently completely confused the poor
> individual
> to whom I was explaining my views, and who indicated to me that "I
> sounded like I was sympathic to the attackers of my country!!!!"
> With
> that kind of response to a question asked of me, I hang up my
> attempts
> to be a diplomat. I realize that such a venue is not my particular
> forte!!!!!!!
>
> My gentle reminder of the past things that the U.S. has done, was
> best
> laid out by our Canadian friend (on which I cannot improve) that was
> posted here a few days ago, and which I recommend again for anyone
> interested, with my thanks, for his thoughts being brought to this
> list.
>
> No, Master Astur, you owe me or mine nothing, except perhaps that you
> may not understand everything that we do here in my country, since
> our
> cultures are so different. I have lived in Spain for two years on
> your
> economy, in a Spanish house, in a Spanish neighborhood, and have
> dealt
> extensively with the Spanish people in everyday life. Even so, I
> could
> not bring myself to be critical of how your government worked, since
> almost daily I saw and heard tidbits which were a puzzle to me, and
> when
> the answers to these puzzles were explained, I found these answers to
> be
> perfectly reasonable from the view of the Spanish people, as a whole.
> Sometimes the small missing part of knowledge or piece of information
> changes the whole picture of what is going on in the world in whch we
> find ourselves. Of course, as I grow older, I also find that I am
> less
> sure of anything in a hard and fast sense, since there is almost
> always
> some further piece of information which needs to be introduced into
> any
> question of national import. A weakness, I suppose that those of
> younger years do not have, and which has only grown on me in the last
> 30
> years or so.
>
> Some time ago I wrote to this list regarding making decisions, and
> being
> critical of them when one does not have all the available
> information.
> Since I felt, that I would never be in possssion of all the
> information
> which made up the decisions of the Spanish Government, I decided not
> to
> be critical of it and simply enjoy my stay there among a unique and
> essentially happy and hospitable people. I found that this idea,
> while
> some may label it as "sticking one's head in the sand" enabled me to
> enjoy my stay there, to make friends instead of enemies, and pursue
> much
> more effectively the questions that arose about the differences
> between
> our two cultures.
>
> However each to his own. No sir, you owe me nothing, perhaps it is I
> who owe you for the opportunity to say these words on this list. As
> others have said this idea may be off-topic in some ways, but in
> others
> (such as the Roman Virtues) it may well be very much on-topic, as it
> seems to me, that criticism of another's country, ideas, and
> discussions, unless extremely pointed, are best dealt with in
> generosity
> and understanding, and with the idea that "honey catches more flies
> than
> salt."
>
> This has been the plea on this list for a very long time (over three
> years) and we have still not mastered the apparent, and very
> difficult
> art of it.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens

You are certainly right in all your points, and I have to admit that my
previous post was one that you did not deserve. Even I sometimes feel
the urge to say harsh things when I think that someone is pontificating
about something they have no idea about (which certainly was not your
case, since you have spent some years in my own country; in fact, you
probably know more about the dictatorship era than I do, since I was
born in democracy).

My anger was not (or should not have been) directed to you (in fact,
the "you" in my previous message was plural). It was about those who
jump to conclusions without knowing anything, like those who, as my
dear Saverius masterfully explained, label E.T.A. terrorists as
"freedom fighters" for thirty years and then get enraged when someone
defends those terrorists that have attacked *them* (I am not talking
about anyone on this list, since no one in NR, to the best of my
knowledge, has ever expressed support for E.T.A.; but no one in NR has
neither expressed the level of support and encouragement we have all
expressed in these last days when someone is murdered in Spain).

Please accept my apologies.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] gens
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:07:15 US/Central

Salve Tite Octavi et alii

> The gentes of today are indeed more similar to the familii than the
> gentes of Roma Antiqua, but considering how they encompass may different
> cognomen, they also share common traits with the gentes. As the
> citizenship application form states, "Identifies branch within gens".
> Different cognomen signifies familii within a gens, and should therefore
> be interpreted that way by the legislation and constitution as well, in
> my opinion.

This was not entirely true. Take Gens Labiena for instance. Its most famous
member was C Iulius Caesar's legate, T Labienus. Note the lack of cognomen.
Now, T Labienus' son was Q Labienus Parthicus. Obviously, Q Labienus did not
belong to a different familia than his father. Likewise, during the reign of
Augustus there was a subsequent T Labienus. He was given the cognomen Rabienus
because of his vitriolic speeches. Most certainly, he didn't change familiae
upon assuming the new cognomen.

Yes, cognomina differentiated between familiae. However, they did not
necessarily mean such a differentiation. Also, it would be quite undesirable
to force cives who currently have cognomina to be forced to either leave their
current gens/familia or to join the gens/familia of someone who happens to have
the same nomen et cognomen.

> It's quite easy to do, as well. The first citizen with a given cognomen
> within a gens is the paterfamilias of that familia, and all paterfamilii
> report to their patergentilia(?), who is the citizen within the gens
> who's been a member of said gens the longest.

There is no historical proof of such a position. There's nothing but
implication to even suggest that it might have existed. It was certainly not
extant by the later Republic.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Spain & U.S.
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, carissime Saveri.

--- Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
wrote:
>
> Salve cives, et salve, Marcus Audens.
>
> Although this conversation is between you and Astur, I am a spaniard,
> and know Astur personally (he is actually part of my family). So I
> feel entitled to express my views, which are in fact quite similar to
> his.

"A part of my family". How touchy :-). I will surely tell your sister
that you have been a good boy :-).

I will also have to pay you a drink when we see each other this
weekend, of course :-).

> --- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> > Legatus / Triumvir Gnaeus Salix Astur;
> > No, Master Astur, neither you nor your country owe me a thing.
> > Friendship between individuals brings it's own mutually agreeable
> > obligations, and nations owe other nations only what is agreed to
> by
> > formal agreement or treaty.
>
> True. And in this case, formal agreements and treaties state great
> mutual obligations. But apart from written contracts, there is a
> mutual sharing of goals and values, and a common opinion in both
> populations that we are "friends". This doesn't stop both our
> countries from spying on each other, sadly. But it does help them not
> to take umbrage when some case is found out.

I guess that the C.I.A. does spy on us, but do we spy on them? Are we
able to? :-)

> > I simply find that when I (and usually others) are critical of
> another
> > country's actions without dwelling there, and being familiar with
> the
> > culture found in that country, one tends to judge others by the
> same
> > ruler, that he / she uses in his own nation. This can be a real
> > problem, as we have recently seen, since there can be, and very
> often
> > is, an extremely large difference between the view of people of
> > different cultural, geographic and religious backgrounds.
>
> Well, one can hardly not agree to this. There is much to your
> statement. But the need to "make a simplified scientific model" of
> another peoples and cultures in order to judge them is always there.
> For example, it is historically important now to ascertain how the
> muslim integrist movement thinks and reacts, not only in order to
> judge part of it but as a means to end our conflict with them.
>
> The mere concept of "ethics" compared to "moral" states that there
> are things that are "inmoral", that is, wrong in some cultures and
> environments, and things that are "unethical", that is, wrong in
> every culture and environment.
>
> Conceiving the existence of such a "metamoral" is audacious, but also
> a basic necessity for convivence. And it also is a source for
> conflict. Many cultures see the discrimination of women, religious
> intolerance, disregard for human rights or forms of authoritarian
> government as peculiarities of their cultural morality. On other
> easier grounds, I think that america and europe should find a common
> ground in some matters in order to ease their convivence, and
> dialogue and mutual criticism is necessary for this.
>
> But I have faith in the existence of a universal common sense and
> need for peace and mutual respect. The signs for it are always there.
>
> For example, recently I have read the interesting opinion of spanish
> diplomats in pakistan about the taliban psychology. It is a really
> interesting insight which I am sure american authorities and media
> also have. In it they express their amazement and joy at the mullahs
> petition to Bin Laden that he should abandon their country of his own
> will (they, and all their acquaintances, had expected something much
> more radical and confrontational). Of course, both our countries
> rightly see this as void and insufficient. But it shows that even
> those fanatics who would like to die for their beliefs and never have
> changed their minds retain some human common sense.

A very interesting idea. In your opinion, what would be the basic
elements of that "metamorality"?

> But I digress. In my opinion, U.S. citizenship is not a sine qua non
> precondition for the liberty of expression regarding its inner
> politics. I see how a great knowledge only attainable through
> long "on the spot" experience would be necessary to do so without
> erring. But the candid, respectful voicing of constructive if
> erroneous opinion should be allowed and approved, if only as a means
> of ascertaining foreign vox populi (and because of mere principle).
>
> Besides, I believe that, as a whole, spaniards are much better
> prepared to judge americans than the other way round. Not because of
> any superiority on our side, of course! But I have known many
> americans who did not realise how so much of their country is
> irradiated to the "outer world" in so many ways (throughout our whole
> lives) and who were surprised at how well they were known abroad. It
> is something the most popular culture in the world will just have to
> live with.

This is certainly true. And it is true for the majority of the world.

We all see American films, American series on television (yes, we all
know who that disgraced "Steve Urkel" was; and I personally like "The
Sopranos"), and American sports; American music is heard all the world
around. It is always refreshing to see another American surprised by
the fact that I know what Mt. Rushmore is, or who the Washington
Wizards are :-) (go Vancouver!).

The difference is that we do not receive *just* American culture; we
also see French films, watch Southamerican sports, buy African woodwork
and read Japanese "manga". And sometimes, some of us even find time to
go and run in front of the bulls! :-).

> This, of course, only applies in general terms to the majority of the
> population (who hasn't lived in spain for two years). I have had the
> privilege of briefly taking part (mostly listening) in conversations
> with some high ranking US and NATO military, and was agreeably
> surprised at seeing some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable
> people I've known of. These individuals did show much multicultural
> savvy.

And I have to say that I also have found many Americans worth listening
to; some of them in NR, and that certainly includes M. Minucius Audens.

> > Just from my limited knowledge of the Islamic Faith and reading the
> > Koran, my explanation of some differing philosophies to a member of
>
> the
> > Greek Orthodox Church recently completely confused the poor
> individual
> > to whom I was explaining my views, and who indicated to me that "I
> > sounded like I was sympathic to the attackers of my country!!!!"
> With
> > that kind of response to a question asked of me, I hang up my
> attempts
> > to be a diplomat. I realize that such a venue is not my particular
> > forte!!!!!!!
> >
> > My gentle reminder of the past things that the U.S. has done, was
> best
> > laid out by our Canadian friend (on which I cannot improve) that
> was
> > posted here a few days ago, and which I recommend again for anyone
> > interested, with my thanks, for his thoughts being brought to this
> list.
> >
> > No, Master Astur, you owe me or mine nothing, except perhaps that
> you
> > may not understand everything that we do here in my country, since
> our
> > cultures are so different. I have lived in Spain for two years on
> your
> > economy, in a Spanish house, in a Spanish neighborhood, and have
> dealt
> > extensively with the Spanish people in everyday life. Even so, I
> could
> > not bring myself to be critical of how your government worked,
> since
> > almost daily I saw and heard tidbits which were a puzzle to me, and
>
> when
> > the answers to these puzzles were explained, I found these answers
> to be
> > perfectly reasonable from the view of the Spanish people, as a
> whole.
> > Sometimes the small missing part of knowledge or piece of
> information
> > changes the whole picture of what is going on in the world in whch
> we
> > find ourselves. Of course, as I grow older, I also find that I am
> less
> > sure of anything in a hard and fast sense, since there is almost
> always
> > some further piece of information which needs to be introduced into
>
> any
> > question of national import. A weakness, I suppose that those of
> > younger years do not have, and which has only grown on me in the
> last 30
> > years or so.
> >
> > Some time ago I wrote to this list regarding making decisions, and
> being
> > critical of them when one does not have all the available
> information.
> > Since I felt, that I would never be in possssion of all the
> information
> > which made up the decisions of the Spanish Government, I decided
> not to
> > be critical of it and simply enjoy my stay there among a unique and
> > essentially happy and hospitable people. I found that this idea,
> while
> > some may label it as "sticking one's head in the sand" enabled me
> to
> > enjoy my stay there, to make friends instead of enemies, and pursue
>
> much
> > more effectively the questions that arose about the differences
> between
> > our two cultures.
>
> Yes, this is a common occurence. It is funny that some foreigners who
> come to live to Spain think this way till the point when they begin
> to think like spaniards and begin not to understand their original
> countries.

It is like flu. If you spend too much time around, you'll get infected
:-).

> But, as an american who has lived in Spain you will understand our
> surprise at the concern in the U.S. about the statements of european
> media and individuals. Of course I see that the media should not take
> a sympathetic or lax stance or language towards terrorism. But
> distance often breeds misunderstanding, and this is normal. Some
> popular american media are talking about spanish terrorism when
> trying to be neutral in a manner that is hurtful for us and would be
> deemed so by you if it referred to Al Quaeda as, for example, "armed
> pro-islamist group", etc.(I add a link for your pleasure).

I think that M. Minucius Audens lived in Spain *before* the press spoke
freely about anything; but he is extremely well travelled, and I am
sure he understands your point.

> http://cnn.looksmart.com/r_search?
>
l&izch&qc=&col=cnni&qm=0&st=1&nh=10&rf=1&venue=all&keyword=&qp=&search
> =0&key=ETA

Disgusting. Such an obvious distorsion of truth. :-(.

> > However each to his own. No sir, you owe me nothing, perhaps it is
>
> I
> > who owe you for the opportunity to say these words on this list.
> As
> > others have said this idea may be off-topic in some ways, but in
> others
> > (such as the Roman Virtues) it may well be very much on-topic, as
> it
> > seems to me, that criticism of another's country, ideas, and
> > discussions, unless extremely pointed, are best dealt with in
> generosity
> > and understanding, and with the idea that "honey catches more flies
>
> than
> > salt."
> >
> > This has been the plea on this list for a very long time (over
> three
> > years) and we have still not mastered the apparent, and very
> difficult
> > art of it.
>
> Well, this list has indeed been a means of getting to know the
> american mind better for Astur and me! At least we both think we know
> you better just from continuously reading from american cives.

I certainly subscribe that feeling; and I thank M. Minucius for sharing
*his* thoughts with us.

> Devotio Hispanica semper vivat.

In cordibus nostris.

> Marcus Salix Saverius

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV: The Tribunate
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Germanice.

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:46 PM
> >
> > Let me first congratulate you for this final draft for a reformed
> > tribunate. It will surely bring this institution closer to its
> > historical duties, which I think is a good thing. I just have a
> couple
> > of questions, if you don't mind:
>
> Not at all; that's why I posted it while questions and comments could
> still
> be incorporated into the voted-on version.
>
> > > ] e. To call the Senate to order;
> >
> > What does this paragraph exactly mean? Will the Tribuni be able to
> set
> > the agenda for the senatorial meeting?
>
> That is up to the Senate, as they control their own internal rules.
> There is
> some talk of making just such a change in connection with a change to
> the
> rules for the Comitia Plebis, as a matter of fact, but that's more a
> job for
> the Tribunes to explain, methinks. As it is, this is simply a
> carry-over
> from the current phrasing in the Constitution.
>
> > > ] f. To call the comitia plebis tributa to order;
> >
> > I see that there is no change to our actual situation on this
> point.
> > Are you planning another reform here?
>
> There are a couple of options being discussed. As I indicated,
> perhaps our
> good Tribunes might speak to this particular issue.
>
> > > ] g. To administer the law;
> >
> > What does this exactly mean?
>
> Basically, it allows the Tribunes to conduct trials and other legal
> proceedings before the Comitia Plebis. It's the same wording used to
> allow
> the Praetors and Aediles to do the same thing before the Comitiae
> Centuriata
> and Populi. Not including it for the Tribunes was an omission
> originally
> (since they should very well have the power to conduct trials in the
> Comitia
> Plebis, when called for by the law), and this is simply correcting
> that
> omission. The exact mechanisms by which the Comitia Plebis would be
> called
> by the tribunes to exercise legal functions is still in the works,
> just as
> they are for the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul

Gratias tibi ago, Consul. You have been very helpful.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution VI: Familiae et Gentes
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:49:21 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Germanice.

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> Given the current discussion regarding gentes and familiae, might I
> suggest
> the following:
>
> -----

A good and simple solution, consul. My congratulations to you and to
the Tribunus T. Labienus. I hope this lex is passed.

> V. This lex shall not be construed to block the implementation of a
> system
> of gentes based on the ancient model at some future date, through
> appropriate legal mechanisms.

I particularly like this point :-). Good provision.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Spain
From:	Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:35:36 -0700 (PDT)

I just read the beginning of this statement and found
it quite in line with how I feel from what I
interpret. It is not right for people of one nation
to criticize the ways another country operates. Think
of it in this sense. Americans think they have this
great system because of the Constitution in this
country because we have all these great rights that
many of us are not even responsible enough to have to
begin with. I'm not saying that you need to be
saintly but with all rights provided to one there is a
degree of responsibility sacrificed in return. Now
back to the point I was trying to make. It is easy
for us to criticize other nations based on what we
have and the standards we live by but what if that
same nation we criticize felt the same way about us
that they had the better life under their rules and
norms. Our world is in sad shape for we lay all these
rules down as what are basic to all humans and those
who do not conform are ostracized. Everyone is in
everyone else's business. Now I'm not saying we
should let all the Hitler's of the world and
mini-Hitler's just go around committing genocide.
There is a point at which a line must be drawn. But
whether or not a country is "democratic" or not based
on the standard held in another country should not be
held against them. The United States is certainly not
democratic. We are a republic. We elect
representatives. Our own country's figure head the
President is not elected by the people but rather by
an electoral college. So what do not even meet the
standard of what a true democracy is. Now democratic
country in this world does. So all I'm saying is
before passing judgement on others for the way in
which they operate place yourself outside the context
of the society in which you live and look at the
overall picture.
Quintus Cornelius Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:17:50 -0400

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> > The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work actually much more closely to how the ancient familiae work.

Censor Cincinnatus: Not ours.

> > Hmmm... any thoughts on that? An amendment to change the Constitution, simply replacing "gens" with "familia"?
>
> Salve, Flavi Vedi Germanice.

Censor Cincinnatus: I don't think it is a needed change. Perhaps an adjustment on the individual gens pages can be made instead.

> The gentes of today are indeed more similar to the familii than the
> gentes of Roma Antiqua, but <SNIP> Different cognomen signifies familii within a gens, and should therefore be interpreted that way by the legislation and constitution as well, in my opinion.
>
> It's quite easy to do, as well. The first citizen with a given cognomen within a gens is the paterfamilias of that familia, and all paterfamilii report to their patergentilia(?), who is the citizen within the gens who's been a member of said gens the longest.

Censor Cincinnatus: This is how I've 'set up' Gens Equitia. My son is Publius Equitius Cincinnatus and will hopefully he continue my branch of the Gens. Other members of Gens Equitia have their own 'families'.
Please indulge me as I illustrate:
PATERFAMILIAS
1, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Uxor Irene Afrania Lentula
Children Lucia Equitia Pulchra et Publius Equitius Cincinnatus
Adopted Amulius Equitius Germanicus

Family heads:
2. Primus Equitius Accpiter et Uxor Messalina Quinctia Accipter
3. Marcus Equitius Lentulus et Uxor Lolita Peraltia Nerva
children (son not registered)
4. Quintus Equitius Frontinus et Uxor Secunda Iunia Hispania
Children (not registered, adults)
5.Aulus Equitius Gracchus et Uxor Asellina Iulia Brittanica
Children (not registered, adults)
6. Marcus Equitius Paternus et Uxor Seia Silvania Atia
children Titus Equitius Lapis et Maia Equitia Atia

Also, I consider these as technically adopted until their spouse is enrolled...
7. Gnaeus Equitius Marinus et (wife not a citizen)
8. Tiberius Equitius Caecus et (wife not a citizen)
9. Marcella Equitia Faustina et (husband not a citizen)

You may also notice that the wives all have different nomen. Wives kept the nomen of their father (children also were given and kept their father's nomen) so I have encouraged them to choose a nomen of their liking. I have tried to maintain family relationship as much a possible, but we cannot force anyone to become citizens.
Anyway, Gens Equitia has 6 "families" with an addtional 3 only waiting for spouse application.

Also, I would like to point out that there are "Gens" that have been formed as 'branches' of others. For example, from an earlier thread of this discussion.

> > The only way I can think of to track this, is that Gens that WISHED to
have multiple families would have to have these families tracked by
Cognomen, and in the case of Patrician Gens that had Plebian families
Patrician Status would be determined by Gens AND Cognomen. Some Cognomen in
that would be Patrician, others would not.

L EQUITIUS: This is already the case!!!

Aelia (Patrician) and Aelia Baetica (Plebian)
Africana Secunda (Pat) and Africana (Pleb)
Caecilia and Caecilia Metella (both Pleb);
Cassia (Pat) and Cassia Calda (Pleb);
Claudia (Pat), Claudia Lucentia,Claudia Secunda, and Claudia Tertia (Pleb);
Drusilla, Drusilla Severa (both Pleb);
Fabia (Pat) and Fabia Vera (Pleb);
Furia and Furia Pigra (both Pleb)
Iulia (Pat) and Iulia Caesaria (Pleb)
Maria (Pat) and Maria Secunda (Pleb)
Terentia (Pat) Terentia Ferraria and Terentia Panonica (Pleb)
Valeria (Pat) Valeria Hispanica, Valeria Illyrica, Valeria Messallina, Valeria Secunda (Pleb)

Valete!

TALIBAN DELENDA EST!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:34:11 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:18 PM
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> > > The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work
> actually much more closely to how the ancient familiae work.
>
> Censor Cincinnatus: Not ours.

Was there such a thing historically as a "patergentilis"? Was any single
individual in charge of the gens as a whole, or was such control done on the
level of the familiae? That, I think, is at the heart of the question of how
our gentes operate vis-a-vis those of Roma Antiqua.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Going away for awhile!
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:38:13 -0400

Salvete,

My National Guard (Army Reserves for those of you not from the USA ~_^)
unit has been activated today, so I'll be offline for a least two weeks,
perhaps longer. Any questions or issues regarding the Massachusetts Regio
can be directed to my superior, Proconsul M. Minucius Audens. Thanks!

Valete,

Sergeant C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia
Massachusetts Army National Guard

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Going away for awhile!
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:26:46 -0400

Good luck, and kick ass.

FVG

> -----Original Message-----
> From: C. Minucius Hadrianus [mailto:shinjikun@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 4:38 PM
> To: Sodalitas Militarium; Novaroma; NovaBritannia
> Subject: [novaroma] Going away for awhile!
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> My National Guard (Army Reserves for those of you not from the USA ~_^)
> unit has been activated today, so I'll be offline for a least two weeks,
> perhaps longer. Any questions or issues regarding the Massachusetts Regio
> can be directed to my superior, Proconsul M. Minucius Audens. Thanks!
>
> Valete,
>
>
> Sergeant C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
> Nova Britannia Provincia
> Massachusetts Army National Guard
>
> ICQ# 28924742
>
> "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pentagon casualty list
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:56:21 -0400

Salvete,
I just found out that an officer whom I worked with in London is missing from the Pentagon, as well as a Yeoman that I knew (through phone/paper conversations mostly). It has shaken me as I didn't think many Navy people would be in that area. The casualty list is full of Navy personnel, though.
Prayers & blessings for all of our NR cives who are in the military, especially those in the US military who have been recalled due to the present crisis.
Valete,
Helena Galeria (YN1, USNR-Ret)
Fair Winds & Following Seas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Spain
From:	"Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston" <Hilliam@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:17:03 -0400

Ave to citizens and others,

<<< The United States is certainly not democratic. We are a republic. We elect representatives. Our own country's figure head the President is not elected by the people but rather by an electoral college. So what do not even meet the standard of what a true democracy is. Now ["no", I assume-MHP] democratic country in this world does...Quintus Cornelius Caesar>>

Of course Cornelius is right about America. But this makes me wonder about the ancient world, so I have a question about it.

Was ancient Rome ever, even during the Republic, a true democracy?

Or does that honor belong only to the beloved Hellas?

Matthew

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: "Land Bill" for Nova Roma
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:58:16 -0000

Again, you think too big. We should only be thinking about a 2 to 6
acre plot of land with maybe only one small building and a flagstaff
flying the flag of Nova Roma. Maybe someone should contact the
Senate and have them form some sort of internal committe that can
decide where and how big. I myself am going to start looking into
historical societies to see if donations are possible. Maybe instead
of even starting to worry about land we should get some sort of a
publicity thing going first in the media to draw attention. WHo
knows, maybe we will draw the attention of some rich guy that would
want to donate for a cause. All I know is that I am very excited
about the possibility of there being a "real" Nova Roma, someplace
you can actually go.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Personally I think its way too soon. We have not even had a
successful dry run in the collection of revenues.
>
> However, the body that would ultimately be responsible for this
decision, I believe, would be the Senate of Nova Roma. Given that
according to the Constitution of Nova Roma it is the supreme policy
making body.
>
> In my honest opinion, I think we should continue collecting funds
for placement of the land fund. And wait to see how the collection
of taxes progresses. Because purchasing land and being able to
maintain the land is going to be a HUGE endeavor.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel Dreesbach
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] "Land Bill" for Nova Roma
>
>
> <P> How about a subsidiary corp or committee orgainzed
> to deal with these issues. Plus it would open up
> areas for Nova Romans to work.
> <P>
> <P>Gaius Geminius Germanus
> <P>&n-------- <B><I>ti--------us.ann@--------</I></B>
> wrote:
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><TT>Salvete
> quirites,<BR><BR>With growing interest I have read the
> mails about land for NR. As a result<BR>I have taken
> the liberty to ask around in the provincia germaniae
> superioris,<BR>if anybody knew about something that
> could do.<BR><BR>I understand if some people want to
> own land in the States, but I personally<BR>believe,
> that at least some land in every province or in parts
> of the world<BR>which were under roman rule would
> bring lots of people from these parts<BR>into
> NR.<BR><BR>I will keep you updated if someone finds
> something. Please answer no matter<BR>if you agree
> with my view or not, but I find it unnerving to write
> mails<BR>to a list of many hundred people and nobody
> writes back.<BR><BR>Valete from Basilea, Germania
> Superior, Tiberius Annaeus
> Otho<BR><BR><BR><BR>________________________________________<BR>E-
Mail
> for everyone! <A
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Going away for awhile!
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:12:10 -0000

---Salve Legatus Hadrianus:

I will miss you, and you shall be in my thoughts as you undertake your
very important military duties.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> My National Guard (Army Reserves for those of you not from the USA
~_^)
> unit has been activated today, so I'll be offline for a least two
weeks,
> perhaps longer. Any questions or issues regarding the Massachusetts
Regio
> can be directed to my superior, Proconsul M. Minucius Audens.
Thanks!
>
> Valete,
>
>
> Sergeant C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
> Nova Britannia Provincia
> Massachusetts Army National Guard
>
> ICQ# 28924742
>
> "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, censor Cincinnatus.

--- Lucius Equitius <vze23hw7@--------> wrote:
> Censor Cincinnatus: This is how I've 'set up' Gens Equitia. My son is
> Publius Equitius Cincinnatus and will hopefully he continue my branch
> of the Gens. Other members of Gens Equitia have their own
> 'families'.
> Please indulge me as I illustrate:
> PATERFAMILIAS
> 1, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Uxor Irene Afrania Lentula
> Children Lucia Equitia Pulchra et Publius Equitius Cincinnatus
> Adopted Amulius Equitius Germanicus
>
> Family heads:
> 2. Primus Equitius Accpiter et Uxor Messalina Quinctia Accipter
> 3. Marcus Equitius Lentulus et Uxor Lolita Peraltia Nerva
> children (son not registered)
> 4. Quintus Equitius Frontinus et Uxor Secunda Iunia Hispania
> Children (not registered, adults)
> 5.Aulus Equitius Gracchus et Uxor Asellina Iulia Brittanica
> Children (not registered, adults)
> 6. Marcus Equitius Paternus et Uxor Seia Silvania Atia
> children Titus Equitius Lapis et Maia Equitia Atia
>
> Also, I consider these as technically adopted until their spouse is
> enrolled...
> 7. Gnaeus Equitius Marinus et (wife not a citizen)
> 8. Tiberius Equitius Caecus et (wife not a citizen)
> 9. Marcella Equitia Faustina et (husband not a citizen)
>
> You may also notice that the wives all have different nomen. Wives
> kept the nomen of their father (children also were given and kept
> their father's nomen) so I have encouraged them to choose a nomen of
> their liking. I have tried to maintain family relationship as much a
> possible, but we cannot force anyone to become citizens.
> Anyway, Gens Equitia has 6 "families" with an addtional 3 only
> waiting for spouse application.
>
> Also, I would like to point out that there are "Gens" that have been
> formed as 'branches' of others. For example, from an earlier thread
> of this discussion.

This is commendable, censor. In fact, I think that the final objective
of the gens reform is that all those gentes that want to be organized
like yours is should be allowed to *officially* do so. The fact is
that, currently, your gens is internally organized like a historical
Roman gens. But this organization is not official. I can understand
that other gentes do not want to be organized like yours is. But since
*your* organization is the historically correct one, shouldn't we make
it the official one? If other gentes want it to be otherwise, they can
certainly arrange it by themselves, as you have done.

> > > The only way I can think of to track this, is that Gens that
> WISHED to
> have multiple families would have to have these families tracked by
> Cognomen, and in the case of Patrician Gens that had Plebian families
> Patrician Status would be determined by Gens AND Cognomen. Some
> Cognomen in
> that would be Patrician, others would not.
>
> L EQUITIUS: This is already the case!!!
>
> Aelia (Patrician) and Aelia Baetica (Plebian)
> Africana Secunda (Pat) and Africana (Pleb)
> Caecilia and Caecilia Metella (both Pleb);
> Cassia (Pat) and Cassia Calda (Pleb);
> Claudia (Pat), Claudia Lucentia,Claudia Secunda, and Claudia Tertia
> (Pleb);
> Drusilla, Drusilla Severa (both Pleb);
> Fabia (Pat) and Fabia Vera (Pleb);
> Furia and Furia Pigra (both Pleb)
> Iulia (Pat) and Iulia Caesaria (Pleb)
> Maria (Pat) and Maria Secunda (Pleb)
> Terentia (Pat) Terentia Ferraria and Terentia Panonica (Pleb)
> Valeria (Pat) Valeria Hispanica, Valeria Illyrica, Valeria
> Messallina, Valeria Secunda (Pleb)

Yes; but it does not follow historical practice. After the reform, it
would. As simple as that.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:40:40 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites.

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:18 PM
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> > > Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> > > > The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work
> > actually much more closely to how the ancient familiae work.
> >
> > Censor Cincinnatus: Not ours.
>
> Was there such a thing historically as a "patergentilis"? Was any
> single
> individual in charge of the gens as a whole, or was such control done
> on the
> level of the familiae? That, I think, is at the heart of the question
> of how
> our gentes operate vis-a-vis those of Roma Antiqua.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul

There wasn't. The basic Roman unity was the familia, that was ruled by
a paterfamilias. A gens was a group of familiae that shared a common
nomen (and, theoretically at least, a common ancestor). After all, it
is not so uncommon today to know your cousins and to meet them some
times, is it? Even distant cousins.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Spain
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:59:08 -0400

Salvete,

Even Athens was never a true demoacracy, as there was not universal
sufferage (i.e. women and slaves could not vote). I don't think a "true"
democratic nation has ever really existed (somone correct me if I'm
wrong...).

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston [mailto:Hilliam@--------]
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:17 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Spain

Ave to citizens and others,

<<< The United States is certainly not democratic. We are a republic. We
elect representatives. Our own country's figure head the President is not
elected by the people but rather by an electoral college. So what do not
even meet the standard of what a true democracy is. Now ["no", I
assume-MHP] democratic country in this world does...Quintus Cornelius
Caesar>>

Of course Cornelius is right about America. But this makes me wonder
about the ancient world, so I have a question about it.

Was ancient Rome ever, even during the Republic, a true democracy?

Or does that honor belong only to the beloved Hellas?

Matthew

Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
Durham, NC


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Going away for awhile!
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:30:46 -0700

Ave,

Good luck, take care and be safe. We will await your return.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: C. Minucius Hadrianus
To: Sodalitas Militarium ; Novaroma ; NovaBritannia
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:38 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Going away for awhile!

Salvete,

My National Guard (Army Reserves for those of you not from the USA ~_^)
unit has been activated today, so I'll be offline for a least two weeks,
perhaps longer. Any questions or issues regarding the Massachusetts Regio
can be directed to my superior, Proconsul M. Minucius Audens. Thanks!

Valete,

Sergeant C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Nova Britannia Provincia
Massachusetts Army National Guard

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:34:39 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae

Salvete Quirites.

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:18 PM
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> > > Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> > > > The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work
> > actually much more closely to how the ancient familiae work.
> >
> > Censor Cincinnatus: Not ours.
>
> Was there such a thing historically as a "patergentilis"? Was any
> single
> individual in charge of the gens as a whole, or was such control done
> on the
> level of the familiae? That, I think, is at the heart of the question
> of how
> our gentes operate vis-a-vis those of Roma Antiqua.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul

There wasn't. The basic Roman unity was the familia, that was ruled by
a paterfamilias. A gens was a group of familiae that shared a common
nomen (and, theoretically at least, a common ancestor). After all, it
is not so uncommon today to know your cousins and to meet them some
times, is it? Even distant cousins.

Ave,

Actually I had a discussion with Lucius Sicinius Drusus about this. There was it was called in incises (sp.) I have been trying to get more information about this. I am hoping that Lucius Sicinius might be able to enlighten us more about this.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Spain
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:48:20 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Even Athens was never a true demoacracy, as there was not universal
> sufferage (i.e. women and slaves could not vote). I don't think a
"true"

Po: Just a bit of trivia: women in Greece did not get the vote until
the '50's. I find that so ironic, in that Greece contributed so much
excellent philosophy and culture, to both Rome and now Nova Roma, that
you think they would be further ahead in social growth than the rest
of us.

Maybe it was the fact that they didn't get independent of Turkish
rule til the last 1800's. Perhaps that set Greece back a tad.

But no, they were not ever 100% democracy, in my interpretation. What
is "pure" anything? I think as long as political institutions consist
of human beings, we can never claim that kind of polarized
consistency.

Bene vale,
Pompeia
> democratic nation has ever really existed (somone correct me if I'm
> wrong...).
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
> Nova Britannia Provincia
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Hi--------rd-Pinkston [mai--------Hi--------m@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:17 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Spain
>
>
> Ave to citizens and others,
>
> <<< The United States is certainly not democratic. We are a
republic. We
> elect representatives. Our own country's figure head the President
is not
> elected by the people but rather by an electoral college. So what
do not
> even meet the standard of what a true democracy is. Now ["no", I
> assume-MHP] democratic country in this world does...Quintus
Cornelius
> Caesar>>
>
> Of course Cornelius is right about America. But this makes me
wonder
> about the ancient world, so I have a question about it.
>
> Was ancient Rome ever, even during the Republic, a true democracy?
>
> Or does that honor belong only to the beloved Hellas?
>
>
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
> Durham, NC
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:58:05 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, censor Sulla.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Ave,
>
> Actually I had a discussion with Lucius Sicinius Drusus about this.
> There was it was called in incises (sp.) I have been trying to get
> more information about this. I am hoping that Lucius Sicinius might
> be able to enlighten us more about this.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I have also read the term "Incisus". It seems to refer to a rather
honorary title, with no legal power. However, I would also like to read
the comments of L. Sicinius Drusus.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:15:02 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae

Salvete Quirites; et salve, censor Cincinnatus.

--- Lucius Equitius <vze23hw7@--------> wrote:
> Censor Cincinnatus: This is how I've 'set up' Gens Equitia. My son is
> Publius Equitius Cincinnatus and will hopefully he continue my branch
> of the Gens. Other members of Gens Equitia have their own
> 'families'.
> Please indulge me as I illustrate:
> PATERFAMILIAS
> 1, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Uxor Irene Afrania Lentula
> Children Lucia Equitia Pulchra et Publius Equitius Cincinnatus
> Adopted Amulius Equitius Germanicus
>
> Family heads:
> 2. Primus Equitius Accpiter et Uxor Messalina Quinctia Accipter
> 3. Marcus Equitius Lentulus et Uxor Lolita Peraltia Nerva
> children (son not registered)
> 4. Quintus Equitius Frontinus et Uxor Secunda Iunia Hispania
> Children (not registered, adults)
> 5.Aulus Equitius Gracchus et Uxor Asellina Iulia Brittanica
> Children (not registered, adults)
> 6. Marcus Equitius Paternus et Uxor Seia Silvania Atia
> children Titus Equitius Lapis et Maia Equitia Atia
>
> Also, I consider these as technically adopted until their spouse is
> enrolled...
> 7. Gnaeus Equitius Marinus et (wife not a citizen)
> 8. Tiberius Equitius Caecus et (wife not a citizen)
> 9. Marcella Equitia Faustina et (husband not a citizen)
>
> You may also notice that the wives all have different nomen. Wives
> kept the nomen of their father (children also were given and kept
> their father's nomen) so I have encouraged them to choose a nomen of
> their liking. I have tried to maintain family relationship as much a
> possible, but we cannot force anyone to become citizens.
> Anyway, Gens Equitia has 6 "families" with an addtional 3 only
> waiting for spouse application.
>
> Also, I would like to point out that there are "Gens" that have been
> formed as 'branches' of others. For example, from an earlier thread
> of this discussion.

This is commendable, censor. In fact, I think that the final objective
of the gens reform is that all those gentes that want to be organized
like yours is should be allowed to *officially* do so. The fact is
that, currently, your gens is internally organized like a historical
Roman gens. But this organization is not official. I can understand
that other gentes do not want to be organized like yours is. But since
*your* organization is the historically correct one, shouldn't we make
it the official one? If other gentes want it to be otherwise, they can
certainly arrange it by themselves, as you have done.

> > > The only way I can think of to track this, is that Gens that
> WISHED to
> have multiple families would have to have these families tracked by
> Cognomen, and in the case of Patrician Gens that had Plebian families
> Patrician Status would be determined by Gens AND Cognomen. Some
> Cognomen in
> that would be Patrician, others would not.
>
> L EQUITIUS: This is already the case!!!
>
> Aelia (Patrician) and Aelia Baetica (Plebian)
> Africana Secunda (Pat) and Africana (Pleb)
> Caecilia and Caecilia Metella (both Pleb);
> Cassia (Pat) and Cassia Calda (Pleb);
> Claudia (Pat), Claudia Lucentia,Claudia Secunda, and Claudia Tertia
> (Pleb);
> Drusilla, Drusilla Severa (both Pleb);
> Fabia (Pat) and Fabia Vera (Pleb);
> Furia and Furia Pigra (both Pleb)
> Iulia (Pat) and Iulia Caesaria (Pleb)
> Maria (Pat) and Maria Secunda (Pleb)
> Terentia (Pat) Terentia Ferraria and Terentia Panonica (Pleb)
> Valeria (Pat) Valeria Hispanica, Valeria Illyrica, Valeria
> Messallina, Valeria Secunda (Pleb)

Yes; but it does not follow historical practice. After the reform, it
would. As simple as that.

Ave,

Just for clarification you are saying after THIS reform. Correct?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Going away for awhile!
From:	a.cato@--------
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:17:10 -0000

Salve C. Minuci: Take care my friend, best of luck, and we will
look forward to your return.
Bene vale, ... Appius Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis
"C. Minuciu--------drianu--------lt;--------jikun@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> My National Guard (Army Reserves for those of you not from the USA
~_^)
> unit has been activated today, so I'll be offline for a least two
weeks,
> perhaps longer. Any questions or issues regarding the Massachusetts
Regio
> can be directed to my superior, Proconsul M. Minucius Audens.
Thanks!
>
> Valete,
>
>
> Sergeant C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
> Nova Britannia Provincia
> Massachusetts Army National Guard
>
> ICQ# 28924742
>
> "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:21:52 -0700 (PDT)

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
>
>
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, censor Cincinnatus.
>
> --- Lucius Equitius <vze23hw7@--------> wrote:
> > Censor Cincinnatus: This is how I've 'set up' Gens Equitia. My
> son is
> > Publius Equitius Cincinnatus and will hopefully he continue my
> branch
> > of the Gens. Other members of Gens Equitia have their own
> > 'families'.
> > Please indulge me as I illustrate:
> > PATERFAMILIAS
> > 1, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Uxor Irene Afrania Lentula
> > Children Lucia Equitia Pulchra et Publius Equitius Cincinnatus
> > Adopted Amulius Equitius Germanicus
> >
> > Family heads:
> > 2. Primus Equitius Accpiter et Uxor Messalina Quinctia Accipter
> > 3. Marcus Equitius Lentulus et Uxor Lolita Peraltia Nerva
> > children (son not registered)
> > 4. Quintus Equitius Frontinus et Uxor Secunda Iunia Hispania
> > Children (not registered, adults)
> > 5.Aulus Equitius Gracchus et Uxor Asellina Iulia Brittanica
> > Children (not registered, adults)
> > 6. Marcus Equitius Paternus et Uxor Seia Silvania Atia
> > children Titus Equitius Lapis et Maia Equitia Atia
> >
> > Also, I consider these as technically adopted until their spouse
> is
> > enrolled...
> > 7. Gnaeus Equitius Marinus et (wife not a citizen)
> > 8. Tiberius Equitius Caecus et (wife not a citizen)
> > 9. Marcella Equitia Faustina et (husband not a citizen)
> >
> > You may also notice that the wives all have different nomen.
> Wives
> > kept the nomen of their father (children also were given and kept
> > their father's nomen) so I have encouraged them to choose a nomen
> of
> > their liking. I have tried to maintain family relationship as
> much a
> > possible, but we cannot force anyone to become citizens.
> > Anyway, Gens Equitia has 6 "families" with an addtional 3 only
> > waiting for spouse application.
> >
> > Also, I would like to point out that there are "Gens" that have
> been
> > formed as 'branches' of others. For example, from an earlier
> thread
> > of this discussion.
>
> This is commendable, censor. In fact, I think that the final
> objective
> of the gens reform is that all those gentes that want to be
> organized
> like yours is should be allowed to *officially* do so. The fact is
> that, currently, your gens is internally organized like a
> historical
> Roman gens. But this organization is not official. I can understand
> that other gentes do not want to be organized like yours is. But
> since
> *your* organization is the historically correct one, shouldn't we
> make
> it the official one? If other gentes want it to be otherwise, they
> can
> certainly arrange it by themselves, as you have done.
>
> > > > The only way I can think of to track this, is that Gens that
> > WISHED to
> > have multiple families would have to have these families tracked
> by
> > Cognomen, and in the case of Patrician Gens that had Plebian
> families
> > Patrician Status would be determined by Gens AND Cognomen. Some
> > Cognomen in
> > that would be Patrician, others would not.
> >
> > L EQUITIUS: This is already the case!!!
> >
> > Aelia (Patrician) and Aelia Baetica (Plebian)
> > Africana Secunda (Pat) and Africana (Pleb)
> > Caecilia and Caecilia Metella (both Pleb);
> > Cassia (Pat) and Cassia Calda (Pleb);
> > Claudia (Pat), Claudia Lucentia,Claudia Secunda, and Claudia
> Tertia
> > (Pleb);
> > Drusilla, Drusilla Severa (both Pleb);
> > Fabia (Pat) and Fabia Vera (Pleb);
> > Furia and Furia Pigra (both Pleb)
> > Iulia (Pat) and Iulia Caesaria (Pleb)
> > Maria (Pat) and Maria Secunda (Pleb)
> > Terentia (Pat) Terentia Ferraria and Terentia Panonica (Pleb)
> > Valeria (Pat) Valeria Hispanica, Valeria Illyrica, Valeria
> > Messallina, Valeria Secunda (Pleb)
>
> Yes; but it does not follow historical practice. After the reform,
> it
> would. As simple as that.
>
> Ave,
>
> Just for clarification you are saying after THIS reform. Correct?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Yes :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

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