| Subject: |
[novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tragedy=20strikes=20in=20Swiss=20parliament?= |
| From: |
tiberius.ann@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:23:38 +0200 |
|
Salvete Quirites,
Today tragedy had a go at my homecountry. The legatus of the region germania
superior who is also a swiss citizen has asked me to translate the following
message for him, since he does not speak the english language as well as
I do.
To make translation easier I have translated paragraph by paragraph. Please
take a minute to read and answer.
We are deeply disturbed by such events happening so fast after each other.
EX DOMO LEGATI GERMANIA SUPERIORIS
SALVETE QUIRITES!
We have today received the horrible news of the killing of many members
of the parliament of the canton of Zug.
MIT GROSSEM ENTZETZEN HABEN WIR HEUTE DIE SCHRECKICHE NACHRICHT
VERNOMMEN, DASS IM PARLAMENT UNSERES BUNDESSTAATES ZUG, EINE
UNBEGREIFLICHE BLUTTAT BEGANGEN WORDEN IST.
At 10:30 a man in police uniform (a swiss citizen) stormed into the room,
where the parliament of the canton of Zug was assembled. He was armed with
a swiss army rifle, a handgun and a handgrenade.
He emptied 3 magazines into the crowd and used the handgrenade before killing
himself with the handgun.
UM 10:30 H STÜRMTE EIN IN EINE POLIZEIUNIFORM VERKLEIDETER MANN (EIN
SCHWEIZERBÜRGER), BEWAFFNET MIT EINEM MASCHINENGEWEHR, EINER PISTOLE
UND EINER HANDGRANATE DEN PARLAMENSSAAL DES REGIERUNGSAALES VOM
KANTON ZUG.
ER HAT DREI MAGAZINE VERSCHOSSEN, EINE HANDGRANATE GEZÜNDET UND SICH
MIT DER PISTOLE SELBST GERICHTET.
The cause:
He had a fight with drivers of the trams and busses in Zug and parliament
did not approve his complaint.
GRUND DIESER WAHNSINNSTAT:
ER LAG IM STREIT MIT CHAUFFEUREN DER ZUGER VERKEHRSBETRIEBE UND DAS
PARLAMENT HAT SEINE UNBEGRÜNDETETN VORWÜRFE IN EINER VERWALTUNGSKLAGE
ABGEWIESEN.
Conclusion:
3 dead representatives of the canton Zug in the swiss parliament, one of
them a woman, and eleven dead members of the parliament of the canton of
Zug, one of them also a woman, and 2 very badly wounded members of the swiss
parliament and 8 very badly wounded members of the parliament of Zug.
FAZIT:
DREI TOTE REGIERUNGSRÄTE, DARUNTER EINE FRAU, (EXEKUTIVE) UND ELF
TOTE GROSSRÄTE, DARUNTER EINE FRAU, (LEGISLATIVE), SOWIE ZWEI SCHWER
VERLETZTE REGIERUNGSRÄTE UND ACHT SCHWERSTVERLETZTE GROSSRÄTE.
After the horrible attack on the WTC, fate has now hit our country hard.
This is unbelievable. We are all very shocked and disturbed. As a sign of
our grief, the head of swiss government has put the flags on half mast and
ordered a period of mourning for the whole country until Sunday.
NACH DEM VERHEERENDEN ATTENTAT AUF DAS WTC HAT NUN DAS SCHICKSAL IN
UNSEREM LAND GRAUSAM ZUGESCHLAGEN. UNFASSBAR DIESE SACHE. WIR SIND
ALLE SEHR, SEHR GESCHOCKT UND BETRÜBT. ALS ZEICHEN DER TRAUER HAT DER
SCHWEIZER BUNDESPRÄSIDENT DIE FAHNEN AUF HALBMAST GESETZT UND EINE
STAATSTRAUER BIS NÄCHSTEN SONNTAG ANGEORDNET.
In the name of the government of the people of the region of germaniae superioris
I give my regards to all the people involved in this incident. All the families,
but also the canton of Zug. We condole from all our heart and feel with
you. Our thoughts are in these hours with our swiss citizens.
IM NAMEN DER REGIERUNG UND DER BEVÖLKERUNG VON DER REGIONIS GERMANIAE
SUPERIORIS SPRECHE ICH ALLEN BETROFFENEN FAMILIEN UND AUCH DEM KANTON
ZUG UNSER TIEFSTES BEILEID UND STARKES MITGEFÜHL AUS. UNSERE GEDANKEN
SIND IN DIESEN STUNDEN BEI UNSEREN LEIDTRAGENDEN BUNDESGENOSSEN.
In silent grief,
MIT STILLEM GRUSS
QUINTUS QUINCTILIUS VARUS GALILI
LEGATUS GERMANIAE SUPERIORIS
________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: "Land Bill" for Nova Roma |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:10:10 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Maybe for land Nova Roma should seek smaller plots a
land (possibly 1-3 acres)so it is small enough and
cheap enough that it could possibly purchase lands
over time for each province so that everyone can enjoy
the addition to Nova Roma. Plus going with the idea
of a small town house with a flag pole for the Nova
Roma flag. I don't know what else I could suggest but
thats what came to me
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Going away for awhile! |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:12:04 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Good luck my friend...be safe and may God be with you
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
27 Sep 2001 19:25:43 -0300 |
|
On Thu, 2001-09-27 at 18:59, C. Minucius Hadrianus wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Even Athens was never a true demoacracy, as there was not universal
> sufferage (i.e. women and slaves could not vote). I don't think a "true"
> democratic nation has ever really existed (somone correct me if I'm
> wrong...).
Democracy and Nation are antinomic (see my other post)
Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
> Nova Britannia Provincia
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston [mailto:Hilliam@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:17 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Spain
>
>
> Ave to citizens and others,
>
> <<< The United States is certainly not democratic. We are a republic. We
> elect representatives. Our own country's figure head the President is not
> elected by the people but rather by an electoral college. So what do not
> even meet the standard of what a true democracy is. Now ["no", I
> assume-MHP] democratic country in this world does...Quintus Cornelius
> Caesar>>
>
> Of course Cornelius is right about America. But this makes me wonder
> about the ancient world, so I have a question about it.
>
> Was ancient Rome ever, even during the Republic, a true democracy?
>
> Or does that honor belong only to the beloved Hellas?
>
>
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston
> Durham, NC
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
27 Sep 2001 19:29:07 -0300 |
|
On Thu, 2001-09-27 at 16:17, Matthew Hilliard-Pinkston wrote:
> Ave to citizens and others,
>
> <<< The United States is certainly not democratic. We are a republic. We elect representatives. Our own country's figure head the President is not elected by the people but rather by an electoral college. So what do not even meet the standard of what a true democracy is. Now ["no", I assume-MHP] democratic country in this world does...Quintus Cornelius Caesar>>
>
> Of course Cornelius is right about America.
Not quite. Check the dictionary.
>From dictionary.com, for democracy we have
1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected
representatives.
2.A political or social unit that has such a government.
3.The common people, considered as the primary source of political
power.
4.Majority rule.
5.The principles of social equality and respect for the individual
within a community.
You can notice that at least the 3 first apply to the USA. The 3rd one
applies to the various states and nearly to the USA (with the diference
that the USA are a federation).
The USA are a democracy in all the most common sense of the word.
Again from dictionary.com for republic.
1. a.A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in
modern times is usually a president.
b.A nation that has such a political order.
2. a.A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of
citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives
responsible to them.
b.A nation that has such a political order.
3.often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the
Fourth Republic of France.
4.An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit
belonging to a sovereign federation.
5.A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the
republic of letters.
As you can see the most common sense just means "without king or other
heredetary leader"
The less common sense is nearly equivalent to democracy with the
following difference : not all of the people need to be part of the
"body of citizens".
If you want to create a dichotomy between democracy and republic the USA
are a democracy since the civil rights can be exerced by all (including
women and minorities).
On the other hand you can state that no nation-state is a democracy
since non-national residents are deprived of the right of vote, which
creates a body of citizens which is different from the people.
But this makes me wonder about the ancient world, so I have a question about it.
>
> Was ancient Rome ever, even during the Republic, a true democracy?
>
If you accept that the people were only free national men it was a
democracy if not it was a republic (without monarch and a reduced body
of citizens).
> Or does that honor belong only to the beloved Hellas?
>
The greek city states were certainly not democracies due to the large
number of nationals that were not citizens but meteques (All the freed
men and descendants of freed men). Even in Pericles Athens, only the
sons of 2 athenian citizens were citizens, which by the way shows that
women were citizens with no right to vote.
The roman civic body was much larger: only the father decided if the son
was a citizen or not, freed men immediately became citizens, much more
democratic in the actual sense of the word.
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:21:43 -0700 (PDT) |
|
There has never throughout history been any nation
that has been what we could call a "true" democracy.
A "true" democracy is nothing more than an ideal, for
which all nations of the world who wish to follow a
democratic path, to strive for. All the democracies
of this world vary. The United States elects
representatives to the Congress of the Republic, both
the United Kingdom and the Democratic Republic of
Germany (correct me if I mislabeled the German
governments official name) elect parties to Congress
and the percentage they win corresponds to a
percentage of seats in the congress. Then of course
there were the pseudo-democracies of Africa when the
United States was attempting to "democratize" those
authoritarian regimes that existed. So there never
has been a "true" democracy from the Roman republic to
the present. If anyone can show otherwise I would
love for them to enlighten me to that for which i do
not know.
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Pentagon casualty list |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:26:33 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I am sorry for the cost this tragedy has had on your
life and pray for you and those throughout this world
who have been affected in anyway by this horrific and
barbarian act by Osama Bin Laden and his followers.
May all the deads names be remembered when the guilty
come before the courts for trial and before Gods court
and face judgement
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Open Fire in Swiss Parliament |
| From: |
trog99@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:19:58 -0000 |
|
Salvete Civites Switzerland:
I read about this horrible openfire on the Swiss Parliament this
morning. To say the least, I was shocked. To think of this madness
being inflicted on peace loving persons such as the Swiss.
But, judging by the events triggering this violence, "madness" is
likely an appropriate term. A sane person does not engage in
open-fires over a fight over transportation issues, in my view.
My condolences, and prayers are with you, and for your members of
parliament in question, and their families and friends. There is no
doubt your whole nation is hurting deeply. I really feel for you all.
Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix Canada Orientalis
NOVA ROMA
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Personal Losses |
| From: |
trog99@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:24:03 -0000 |
|
Salve Helena Galeria:
I am terribly sorry to hear that your friends are missing since the
Pentagon incident. I have had a similar experience in the past, and
the whole situation presents a "pins and needles" uneasiness, with
much sadness.
I wish you well, Amica.
Pompeia Cornelia
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:36:30 -0700 |
|
My prayers go out for your country. You have my deepest sympathies.
Vale,
Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: tiberius.ann@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament
Salvete Quirites,
Today tragedy had a go at my homecountry. The legatus of the region germania
superior who is also a swiss citizen has asked me to translate the following
message for him, since he does not speak the english language as well as
I do.
To make translation easier I have translated paragraph by paragraph. Please
take a minute to read and answer.
We are deeply disturbed by such events happening so fast after each other.
EX DOMO LEGATI GERMANIA SUPERIORIS
SALVETE QUIRITES!
We have today received the horrible news of the killing of many members
of the parliament of the canton of Zug.
MIT GROSSEM ENTZETZEN HABEN WIR HEUTE DIE SCHRECKICHE NACHRICHT
VERNOMMEN, DASS IM PARLAMENT UNSERES BUNDESSTAATES ZUG, EINE
UNBEGREIFLICHE BLUTTAT BEGANGEN WORDEN IST.
At 10:30 a man in police uniform (a swiss citizen) stormed into the room,
where the parliament of the canton of Zug was assembled. He was armed with
a swiss army rifle, a handgun and a handgrenade.
He emptied 3 magazines into the crowd and used the handgrenade before killing
himself with the handgun.
UM 10:30 H STÜRMTE EIN IN EINE POLIZEIUNIFORM VERKLEIDETER MANN (EIN
SCHWEIZERBÜRGER), BEWAFFNET MIT EINEM MASCHINENGEWEHR, EINER PISTOLE
UND EINER HANDGRANATE DEN PARLAMENSSAAL DES REGIERUNGSAALES VOM
KANTON ZUG.
ER HAT DREI MAGAZINE VERSCHOSSEN, EINE HANDGRANATE GEZÜNDET UND SICH
MIT DER PISTOLE SELBST GERICHTET.
The cause:
He had a fight with drivers of the trams and busses in Zug and parliament
did not approve his complaint.
GRUND DIESER WAHNSINNSTAT:
ER LAG IM STREIT MIT CHAUFFEUREN DER ZUGER VERKEHRSBETRIEBE UND DAS
PARLAMENT HAT SEINE UNBEGRÜNDETETN VORWÜRFE IN EINER VERWALTUNGSKLAGE
ABGEWIESEN.
Conclusion:
3 dead representatives of the canton Zug in the swiss parliament, one of
them a woman, and eleven dead members of the parliament of the canton of
Zug, one of them also a woman, and 2 very badly wounded members of the swiss
parliament and 8 very badly wounded members of the parliament of Zug.
FAZIT:
DREI TOTE REGIERUNGSRÄTE, DARUNTER EINE FRAU, (EXEKUTIVE) UND ELF
TOTE GROSSRÄTE, DARUNTER EINE FRAU, (LEGISLATIVE), SOWIE ZWEI SCHWER
VERLETZTE REGIERUNGSRÄTE UND ACHT SCHWERSTVERLETZTE GROSSRÄTE.
After the horrible attack on the WTC, fate has now hit our country hard.
This is unbelievable. We are all very shocked and disturbed. As a sign of
our grief, the head of swiss government has put the flags on half mast and
ordered a period of mourning for the whole country until Sunday.
NACH DEM VERHEERENDEN ATTENTAT AUF DAS WTC HAT NUN DAS SCHICKSAL IN
UNSEREM LAND GRAUSAM ZUGESCHLAGEN. UNFASSBAR DIESE SACHE. WIR SIND
ALLE SEHR, SEHR GESCHOCKT UND BETRÜBT. ALS ZEICHEN DER TRAUER HAT DER
SCHWEIZER BUNDESPRÄSIDENT DIE FAHNEN AUF HALBMAST GESETZT UND EINE
STAATSTRAUER BIS NÄCHSTEN SONNTAG ANGEORDNET.
In the name of the government of the people of the region of germaniae superioris
I give my regards to all the people involved in this incident. All the families,
but also the canton of Zug. We condole from all our heart and feel with
you. Our thoughts are in these hours with our swiss citizens.
IM NAMEN DER REGIERUNG UND DER BEVÖLKERUNG VON DER REGIONIS GERMANIAE
SUPERIORIS SPRECHE ICH ALLEN BETROFFENEN FAMILIEN UND AUCH DEM KANTON
ZUG UNSER TIEFSTES BEILEID UND STARKES MITGEFÜHL AUS. UNSERE GEDANKEN
SIND IN DIESEN STUNDEN BEI UNSEREN LEIDTRAGENDEN BUNDESGENOSSEN.
In silent grief,
MIT STILLEM GRUSS
QUINTUS QUINCTILIUS VARUS GALILI
LEGATUS GERMANIAE SUPERIORIS
________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Gentes/Familiae |
| From: |
"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:03:32 -0400 |
|
Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> > > Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> > > > The ultra-ultra short version is that our current gentes work
> > actually much more closely to how the ancient familiae work.
> >
> > Censor Cincinnatus: Not ours.
>
> Was there such a thing historically as a "patergentilis"?
Censor Cincinnatus: Not that I'm aware of. Of course, I've never used the term.
>Was any single
> individual in charge of the gens as a whole, or was such control done on the
> level of the familiae?
Censor Cincinnatus: Quite likely there was an "individual in charge of the gens as a whole"! I'd bet that this was the case more often than not. Maybe not in a 'legal' sense but certainly in matters of politics and business.
A "Paterfamilias" was in control of his family that many times consisted of grown men who had wives and children of their own and perhaps who were grandfathers themselves! So, in a word Yes they would have controlled 'familiae' (families) (the Latin for family is familia -ae or -as plural).
>That, I think, is at the heart of the question of how
> our gentes operate vis-a-vis those of Roma Antiqua.
> Valete, Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
Censor Cincinnatus: Does this really matter? I don't think so. As we have done in so many other cultural matters within Nova Roma, we have had to make adjustment to "modern sensibilities".
I don't think changing the term 'Gens' to 'Familia' will solve anything. What we need are ways to deal with "Citizens" who have authority, which Paters and Maters do, who disappear. When a Pater disappears, he effectively locks up the 'nomen' he has registered and no one else can use it. Also, when this happens many applications are not approved (some end up joining other gens) and some applicants simply lose interest.
I *still* believe that having Gens register and pay a fee (annual or biannual) with an additional fee for each gens member is the way to go, but we'll see how the tax works out.
I want to thank Legatus Gnaeus Salix Astur for his kind statements in support of the manner in which I've organized gens Equitia. I quite agree that is should be the 'official' way, but I've not chosen to enforce my strict views on others, at least not in this case ;-)
Valete et Bonam Noctem Omnibus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:43:57 -0700 (PDT) |
|
In response to my statement earlier being torn apart,
though rather convincingly, I must say I recommend to
those who either disagree with my view or agree a book
titled "On Democracy" by a man named Dahl (I forget
the first name I think it maybe Robert). His book
concentrates on the topic of democracy and looks at it
from its origins to the present. It is truly a great
book. However in response to the above stated
argument I will say this:
I may have phrased what i meant to say wrong but
the United States is more a republic more so than a
democracy. My contention for this relying on the fact
that we are not a "true" democracy. But as I said
before there is no such thing as a "true" democracy.
it is nothing more than an ideal to strive for. The
United States is democratic in nature but not a full
fledged democracy. reason being that we are not a full
fledged democracy is that we do not directly elect all
of our officials. I will not debate where the
dictionary got its definition from. I will not debate
its credibility. But I will debate what I perceive to
be right to another. However the education I have
received in political science to this juncture in time
allows to look further beyond what a dictionary says
and into other factors that I have been taught.
Please don't interpret that as me saying I'm better
than anyone please. I'm just saying I learned things
that go outside of what just a dictionary says.
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Open Fire in Swiss Parliament |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:51:47 -0700 (PDT) |
|
The attack on the Swiss Parliament is truly a tragic
event. I grieve for those who were hurt in anyway by
this unnecessary attack on innocent people. However I
would like to address one thing:
I would urge people not to just say that the
assailant was crazy, insane, mad, and nuts. Before
anything can be done in the aftermath of this tragic
event we must look into ALL the factors that
contributed to this assault. What kind of passed does
this man have? Does he have a history of run ins with
the law? Does he have any history of mental problems?
Something pushed this man far enough to commit this
act. There is more to it than, from what i
understand, the Parliament just declining his appeal
for what ever the reason was. Rational men and women
do not take actions like this over being rejected. So
there certainly must be more to this assailant than
just the immediate facts. Now is not the time to
answer these questions. But time for asking questions
and grieving for those who were hurt in this attack.
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ohio Event |
| From: |
Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:09:50 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I will be posting directions to Grigg's Reservoir this
weekend. If you have any questions, please feel free
to e-mail me at imperialreign@-------- or call me
(eveings are the best, but not after 10:30 EST) at
(614) 485-0593.
Thanks
M. Bianchius Antonius
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ex Officium Scriba Curatrix Sermonis: Please Trim Posts |
| From: |
trog99@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 03:10:09 -0000 |
|
Salve Omnes:
I write with permission from the Curatrix Sermonis, Priscilla Vedia
Serena.
Please take the time to trim your posts to this list. To be more
specific, several people are carrying 4-5 posts which have already
appeared on the list.
Although this is not much of a problem for those who read the mail at
the website, it causes alot of wasted bandwidth for those who receive
mainlist posts into their email boxes. This presents a great
inconvenience in that a person's mailbox can fill up rather quickly,
and unnecessarily.
Please take the time to either cut and paste the post/paragraph to
which your are addressing, or reply to the orginal post, but delete
the stuff which doesn't have any bearing on your post, and write
(snip).
If we take a couple of minutes to do this, I am sure those affected
will truly appreciate the gesture of courtesy.
Thanks in advance for your anticipated understanding and cooperation.
Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Scriba Curatrix Sermonis
NOVA ROMA
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] IM Database |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:28:49 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Its been a while since I posted a reminder about this....I thought now would be a good time. In case you don't know there is an IM database located in the Forum Romanum website. Many citizens have listed their instant messaging information on there. If your information is not listed there, and you want it to be listed, please email me at alexious@-------- and I can add them to it.
The IM programs that are listed are: ICQ, AIM, YAHOO, MSN Messenger, IRC, and probably others that I dont recall.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Open Fire in Swiss Parliament |
| From: |
"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:16:10 -0000 |
|
Salve, Frater!
The attack on the Swiss Parliament was carried out by a man who had
had a long history of problems with his local government. He had just
had about seven lawsuits he had brought against several organizations
dismissed en masse by the courts because they lacked merit in the
eyes of Swiss jurisprudence.
All that having being said - massacre has no excuse. I'm sorry, it is
very wrong to trot the usual excuses of frustration or feeling
wronged. Neither one justifies carnage. He had personal grievances
with one MP in particular, and from the bare facts, it looks like he
decided he was going "to teach them a lesson". He had no intention of
surviving.
You're right, he was not rational. It does not excuse his atrocity in
any way. However, now is the time to ask why - because it is only
when we examine these acts in the cold light of day, before all the
apologists can come in and weave their usual smokescreens of excuses
and apologies for the "poor wronged man, obviously opressed by an
uncaring society" that seems to be the outlet of choice for angst-
ridden amoralists.
We need to step back and look at ourselves and others with brutal
honesty and clarity. We all have self-delusions and excuses we use to
avoid accepting responsibility to ourselves and to our fellow human
beings. No longer. The events of this month have shown us the
insanity of such an approach on such a scale we can no longer
rationalize our way out of it. Now the Swiss have been victimized
horribly by one of their own citizens. I grieve that more deaths will
probably occur before all of us finally decide to end this madness.
Mea apologia, frater, if I sound unnecessarily harsh. I had seen a
lot of ugliness in our species prior to this, but these events touch
me in an immediate manner which no historical account or cautionary
tale could. It has changed my perspective on our world, perhaps
irretrievably so. And I felt it necessary to comment on this.
Marius Cornelius Scipio
Gens Cornelia
In memoriam...
--- In novaroma@--------, Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> wrote:
> The attack on the Swiss Parliament is truly a tragic
> event. I grieve for those who were hurt in anyway by
> this unnecessary attack on innocent people. However I
> would like to address one thing:
> I would urge people not to just say that the
> assailant was crazy, insane, mad, and nuts. Before
> anything can be done in the aftermath of this tragic
> event we must look into ALL the factors that
> contributed to this assault. What kind of passed does
> this man have? Does he have a history of run ins with
> the law? Does he have any history of mental problems?
> Something pushed this man far enough to commit this
> act. There is more to it than, from what i
> understand, the Parliament just declining his appeal
> for what ever the reason was. Rational men and women
> do not take actions like this over being rejected. So
> there certainly must be more to this assailant than
> just the immediate facts. Now is not the time to
> answer these questions. But time for asking questions
> and grieving for those who were hurt in this attack.
> Quintus Cornelius Caesar
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> http://phone.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:45:15 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete,
I Offer my codolances to the Swiss.
May the Gods comfort you.
I Call on all of our citizens to repeat the prayers
that were offered after the attack on the US for the
victims of the tragedy in Switzerland.
It can be found at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligioRomana/message/1713
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:37:52 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix"
<alexious@--------> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:40 PM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> --- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> > Salvete
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lucius Equitius
> [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 3:18 PM
> > >
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From
> <from@--------> wrote:
> > > > Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> > > > > The ultra-ultra short version is that our
> current gentes work
> > > actually much more closely to how the ancient
> familiae work.
> > >
> > > Censor Cincinnatus: Not ours.
> >
> > Was there such a thing historically as a
> "patergentilis"? Was any
> > single
> > individual in charge of the gens as a whole, or
> was such control done
> > on the
> > level of the familiae? That, I think, is at the
> heart of the question
> > of how
> > our gentes operate vis-a-vis those of Roma
> Antiqua.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Consul
>
> There wasn't. The basic Roman unity was the
> familia, that was ruled by
> a paterfamilias. A gens was a group of familiae
> that shared a common
> nomen (and, theoretically at least, a common
> ancestor). After all, it
> is not so uncommon today to know your cousins and
> to meet them some
> times, is it? Even distant cousins.
>
>
> Ave,
>
> Actually I had a discussion with Lucius Sicinius
> Drusus about this. There was it was called in
> incises (sp.) I have been trying to get more
> information about this. I am hoping that Lucius
> Sicinius might be able to enlighten us more about
> this.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Salvete,
The Source for the term Incises is Frederick Engels
"The Origin of the Family, Private Properity and the
State"
His Sources were Karl Marx's precis on Lewis Morgan's
"Ancient Society" and Mr Morgans actual book. I have
not been able to find a copy of Mr Morgans work which
was published in 1877 CE. Engels work is avaible
online at
http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Archive/1884-Family/
This work is the only place I've seen any referance to
a Gens head in early Roma, and it has no factual
information beyond the name. Given the traditions of
Indo-Europeans, I will hazzard a GUESS that the office
was similar to that of Rex. That is the Incises would
be elected for life, and that his duties would mainly
concern Religous rites and leading the Gens in combat.
Some may be concerned that I'm even using Marx and
Engals as a referance. As Historians they were very
good at citing facts, though IMHO the conculsions they
drew from the facts was often tripe.
The postion of Incises was extinct by the time of the
Republic, and Families were the main structure in
Roma. That is NOT to say that one of the Paters in a
Gens didn't achive domminance over a Gens through his
Dignitas and Auctoritas. A Republican Gens would
include clients and freemen, and allthough these men
were Paters of their families they would have taken
any important decessions to their Patron. Someone like
Scipio Afrancus would have enough Dignitas that most
of the Paters of Cornelia would support him.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Open Fire in Swiss Parliament |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:35:22 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I was not making the usual excuses for this man. But
in looking at problems like this one must look at it
from different perspectives to make an educated
conclusion. If he had this history of problems then
why were they not addressed? I say that he may have a
history of run-ins with the law. I say he may have a
mental history. If not having a mental history he may
have had a mental disorder that was not known by
anyone. Sometimes looking at both sides helps bring
about a logical conclusion. If you look at what you
conclude and then at what the "apologists" say you can
put two and two together and have a logical
conclusion. I will not question any of the events of
the past month and there personal impact on people.
However being that these events may have touched some
more than others those who it has touched need to
recooperate before making a judgement for if that is
amde immediately they surely will not make a logical
rational conclusion. We need to ask ourselves why did
this man commit this horrific act? Why didn't those
who knew there was conflict with him address this
legally? Could this event have been avoided had this
man received psychological help presuming there was a
mental disorder? Clearly this was not just a random
act of violence. Sometimes with serial killers and
mass murderers we do things unknowing and it puts the
killer in the position where he feels he must act. It
is a victim blame where the killer blames the victim
for making him have to act. Even though the victim
was completely innocent and unknowingly triggered off
this killers assault. I'm in no way defending this
obviously troubled individual. But I am saying maybe
society as well as the killer played a role in the
events that led up to the "massacre".
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Land for Nova Roma |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:05:19 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Ave,
I just have a few things I wanted to address.
First off is the topic of land concerning Nova Roma.
Now if Nova Roma is going to obtain lands in any way
it needs to be available to all. Otherwise there is
no point in having land unless it is there for all to
take advantage of. Therefore, as I have said earlier,
I propose that we all consider obtaining small land(s)
in each of the provinces that way all citizens may
enjoy the luxury of the lands acquired by Nova Roma.
Now it has come to my attention that there was a case
of embezzlement a little ways back where an individual
took money. Now, we need to find a way to put up
security measures to protect funds for land(s) and
conserve money to purchase the land(s). I understand
this is something that would take time and would not
happen all at once but it is feasible. But for it to
happen EVERYONE must be honest, patient, and, willing
to go through with this. Now what is evryone's
opionion of this? I would like to hear feedback on
this or hear more suggestions as to what could be
done. But I hope it would be under the pretext that
it would be something that all citizens could benefit
from and have access to.
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20Open=20Fire=20in=20Swiss=20Parliament?= |
| From: |
tiberius.ann@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:45:40 +0200 |
|
Salvete omnes quirites,
First of all, thank you for all those who have allready given signs of shared
feeling to the swiss people.
Secondly: As Quintus Cornelius Caesar so rightly said, we must not call
the attacker nuts or crazy, just because his reaction seems to at first
glance. I understand, that it is very easy to feel that way, but as in other
cases, we should not condemn before all the facts are known.
This is wha I want to thank Marius Cornelius Scipio for his insights into
the tragedy. This morning we have received the latest news from the people
at the crimescene in Zug. They say, that the man had many problems with
the law. He had a long history of making problems and finding things that
were supposed to be wrong even if they were not, etc.
He also had a personal grudge against one member of parliament, which had
its roots in a bar quarrel long before the politician was elected into parliament.
Again, I thank all those who react in any way to this new tragedy and hope
that the world will now come to a rest (note, I did not say peace!) and
that the truly involved may be punished as they deserve.
For the legatus germaniae superioris and with thanks from all of Switzerland,
Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Excerpts from the original from Marius Cornelius Scipio:
>The attack on the Swiss Parliament was carried out by a man who had
>had a long history of problems with his local government. He had just
>had about seven lawsuits he had brought against several organizations
>dismissed en masse by the courts because they lacked merit in the
>eyes of Swiss jurisprudence.
Excerpts from the original of Quintus Cornelius Caesar:
>> I would urge people not to just say that the
>> assailant was crazy, insane, mad, and nuts. Before
>> anything can be done in the aftermath of this tragic
>> event we must look into ALL the factors that
>> contributed to this assault. What kind of passed does
>> this man have? Does he have a history of run ins with
>> the law? Does he have any history of mental problems?
>> Something pushed this man far enough to commit this
>> act. There is more to it than, from what i
>> understand, the Parliament just declining his appeal
>> for what ever the reason was. Rational men and women
>> do not take actions like this over being rejected. So
>> there certainly must be more to this assailant than
>> just the immediate facts.
________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
28 Sep 2001 04:17:08 -0300 |
|
On Thu, 2001-09-27 at 22:43, Michael Loughlin wrote:
> In response to my statement earlier being torn apart,
> though rather convincingly, I must say I recommend to
> those who either disagree with my view or agree a book
> titled "On Democracy" by a man named Dahl (I forget
> the first name I think it maybe Robert). His book
> concentrates on the topic of democracy and looks at it
> from its origins to the present. It is truly a great
> book. However in response to the above stated
> argument I will say this:
> I may have phrased what i meant to say wrong but
> the United States is more a republic more so than a
> democracy. My contention for this relying on the fact
> that we are not a "true" democracy. But as I said
> before there is no such thing as a "true" democracy.
> it is nothing more than an ideal to strive for. The
> United States is democratic in nature but not a full
> fledged democracy. reason being that we are not a full
> fledged democracy is that we do not directly elect all
> of our officials. I will not debate where the
> dictionary got its definition from. I will not debate
> its credibility. But I will debate what I perceive to
> be right to another. However the education I have
> received in political science to this juncture in time
> allows to look further beyond what a dictionary says
> and into other factors that I have been taught.
A dictionary gets his definition of a word from the usage of the said
word. It happens that the common usages of the words republic and
democracy (i.e. the way they are also understood around the world)
are different from the way you (and many US citizens) use them. Probably
due to the names choosen by your major parties.
> Please don't interpret that as me saying I'm better
> than anyone please. I'm just saying I learned things
> that go outside of what just a dictionary says.
I am totally sure that in US political science sense you must be right,
in history one uses in most books the common sense.
Your use of the words made you mix up eastern and western germany: the
democratic republic of germany was eastern germany (communist).
In communist countries democratic was used in Aristotles sense
"government _for_ the poor" (Politics 1279b) another sense of the word
that does not appear in the dictionary because it is not a common sense
just like yours is not.
I have absolutely no clue of what exactly your sense of the word is.
The FRG, the only Germany left is a federation like the USA and does not
elect directly all of their officials and you classified them as a
democracy. England does not elect at all several of its
"representatives" (the lords) and you classified it as a democracy more
then a republic (I agree they are a monarchy and consequently can t be a
republic), on the other hand you (the USA) elect even your judges and
sherifs which are nominated in European countries, meaning that election
must not be the major part of your definition.
If you want to discuss the nature of ancient city-states in terms of
modern words used in a non-common sense, please define this sense for
us.
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:28:57 -0400 |
|
Salvete;
I heard about this last night on television. Truly a baffling, and
heartbreaking, tragedy. My sympathies and condolences go out to all the
Swiss people.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tiberius.ann@-------- [mailto:tiberius.ann@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:24 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament
>
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Today tragedy had a go at my homecountry. The legatus of the
> region germania
> superior who is also a swiss citizen has asked me to translate
> the following
> message for him, since he does not speak the english language as well as
> I do.
> To make translation easier I have translated paragraph by
> paragraph. Please
> take a minute to read and answer.
>
> We are deeply disturbed by such events happening so fast after each other.
>
> EX DOMO LEGATI GERMANIA SUPERIORIS
>
> SALVETE QUIRITES!
>
> We have today received the horrible news of the killing of many members
> of the parliament of the canton of Zug.
>
> MIT GROSSEM ENTZETZEN HABEN WIR HEUTE DIE SCHRECKICHE NACHRICHT
> VERNOMMEN, DASS IM PARLAMENT UNSERES BUNDESSTAATES ZUG, EINE
> UNBEGREIFLICHE BLUTTAT BEGANGEN WORDEN IST.
>
> At 10:30 a man in police uniform (a swiss citizen) stormed into the room,
> where the parliament of the canton of Zug was assembled. He was armed with
> a swiss army rifle, a handgun and a handgrenade.
> He emptied 3 magazines into the crowd and used the handgrenade
> before killing
> himself with the handgun.
>
> UM 10:30 H STÜRMTE EIN IN EINE POLIZEIUNIFORM VERKLEIDETER MANN (EIN
> SCHWEIZERBÜRGER), BEWAFFNET MIT EINEM MASCHINENGEWEHR, EINER PISTOLE
> UND EINER HANDGRANATE DEN PARLAMENSSAAL DES REGIERUNGSAALES VOM
> KANTON ZUG.
> ER HAT DREI MAGAZINE VERSCHOSSEN, EINE HANDGRANATE GEZÜNDET UND SICH
> MIT DER PISTOLE SELBST GERICHTET.
>
> The cause:
> He had a fight with drivers of the trams and busses in Zug and parliament
> did not approve his complaint.
>
> GRUND DIESER WAHNSINNSTAT:
> ER LAG IM STREIT MIT CHAUFFEUREN DER ZUGER VERKEHRSBETRIEBE UND DAS
> PARLAMENT HAT SEINE UNBEGRÜNDETETN VORWÜRFE IN EINER VERWALTUNGSKLAGE
> ABGEWIESEN.
>
> Conclusion:
> 3 dead representatives of the canton Zug in the swiss parliament, one of
> them a woman, and eleven dead members of the parliament of the canton of
> Zug, one of them also a woman, and 2 very badly wounded members
> of the swiss
> parliament and 8 very badly wounded members of the parliament of Zug.
>
> FAZIT:
> DREI TOTE REGIERUNGSRÄTE, DARUNTER EINE FRAU, (EXEKUTIVE) UND ELF
> TOTE GROSSRÄTE, DARUNTER EINE FRAU, (LEGISLATIVE), SOWIE ZWEI SCHWER
> VERLETZTE REGIERUNGSRÄTE UND ACHT SCHWERSTVERLETZTE GROSSRÄTE.
>
> After the horrible attack on the WTC, fate has now hit our country hard.
> This is unbelievable. We are all very shocked and disturbed. As a sign of
> our grief, the head of swiss government has put the flags on half mast and
> ordered a period of mourning for the whole country until Sunday.
>
> NACH DEM VERHEERENDEN ATTENTAT AUF DAS WTC HAT NUN DAS SCHICKSAL IN
> UNSEREM LAND GRAUSAM ZUGESCHLAGEN. UNFASSBAR DIESE SACHE. WIR SIND
> ALLE SEHR, SEHR GESCHOCKT UND BETRÜBT. ALS ZEICHEN DER TRAUER HAT DER
> SCHWEIZER BUNDESPRÄSIDENT DIE FAHNEN AUF HALBMAST GESETZT UND EINE
> STAATSTRAUER BIS NÄCHSTEN SONNTAG ANGEORDNET.
>
> In the name of the government of the people of the region of
> germaniae superioris
> I give my regards to all the people involved in this incident.
> All the families,
> but also the canton of Zug. We condole from all our heart and feel with
> you. Our thoughts are in these hours with our swiss citizens.
>
> IM NAMEN DER REGIERUNG UND DER BEVÖLKERUNG VON DER REGIONIS GERMANIAE
> SUPERIORIS SPRECHE ICH ALLEN BETROFFENEN FAMILIEN UND AUCH DEM KANTON
> ZUG UNSER TIEFSTES BEILEID UND STARKES MITGEFÜHL AUS. UNSERE GEDANKEN
> SIND IN DIESEN STUNDEN BEI UNSEREN LEIDTRAGENDEN BUNDESGENOSSEN.
>
> In silent grief,
>
> MIT STILLEM GRUSS
>
> QUINTUS QUINCTILIUS VARUS GALILI
> LEGATUS GERMANIAE SUPERIORIS
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Unresponsive paters (was RE: Gentes/Familiae) |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:50:56 -0400 |
|
Salvete;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:04 PM
>
> I don't think changing the term 'Gens' to 'Familia' will solve
> anything. What we need are ways to deal with "Citizens" who have
> authority, which Paters and Maters do, who disappear. When a
> Pater disappears, he effectively locks up the 'nomen' he has
> registered and no one else can use it. Also, when this happens
> many applications are not approved (some end up joining other
> gens) and some applicants simply lose interest.
With respect, those are two entirely different issues. I have always agreed
with you that unresponsive patresfamilia are a problem. I have always
encouraged you to take action to correct the problem. You have always
deferred doing so, only to complain about the problem again a month or two
later. Don't wait for the Senate to pass a Senatus Consultum, or the Comitia
to pass a lex. As Censor, you have the power to issue edicta to solve the
problem.
> I *still* believe that having Gens register and pay a fee (annual
> or biannual) with an additional fee for each gens member is the
> way to go, but we'll see how the tax works out.
While issuing such a tax is the province of the Senate (para. V.B.2. of the
Constitution), as Censor you absolutely have the authority to require an
annual registration of patresfamilia (para. II.D.3 of the Constitution).
Paters who fail to register would no longer be paters, having failed to meet
the Constitutional requirement. You could accomplish this in a heartbeat
with the simple promulgation of an edictum. Please do so; this would go an
enormous way towards solving the problem of the disappearing paters.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Hadrianus; |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:38:28 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Fair Winds and Following Seas to you my son, and may you find your way
with skill and daring as you go into harm's way for the honor and
dignity of your country. I shall not bid you to be safe, as you will
not be. I will not bid you to take care, as such is not your duty.
I know that you will add honor to your country, flag, and Gens by your
service, whatever you are called upon to do, whatever service you are
called upon to make.
Know that you have the complete support of myself, and all that I may
command, and my admiration for what you have committed to accomplish,
and what you may encounter.
In closing. I simply add that my thoughts are with you, my son, and were
I able, I should be also serving my country as my skills would allow.
As it is, be sure that I serve in the same cause as yourself with
support and affection here at home. My blessings are upon you, and my
prayers are with you.
With Affection;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Paterfamilius
Gens Minucia
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:00:49 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Gentlemen;
I thank you for your very interesting responses. Master Astur, your
apologies were instantly accepted with appreciation and grace.
I fully understand that criticism may well be available to us all, and I
will further agree that criticism may at times be informative,
effective, and enlightening, even to the extent of changing or reversing
previously held tenents, ideas and procedures.
I guess that my point in al this is that I much prefer to be personally
criticized (or perhaps the word could be "reminded") in private.
Further criticism of anoher's country, determinations, or ideas does not
have to be delivered in an offensive way, deliberately using offensive
terms, and doing so, not for the purpose of attempting to make the
situation better, but rather to impress others with the individual's
importance and tear down the fabric of any institution so attacked.
Such ideas delivered in a friendly and helpful way are certainly looked
at carefully, in my world, while harsh insulting criticisms, are
recieved in a negative way. I think that such is generally true in any
institution, and those who continue to rail and disrupt with their
repeated criticisms, apparent anger and frustrations have no place here
in Nova Roma. Let them take thier disruptive behavior elsewhere as it
is neither wanted or sought after here by the majority of NR Citizens.
In closing, my thanks to my Spanish colleagues for thier comments, and
my best wishes. I offer by my hand a toast to you both, in fine old
Spanish Brandy (The best of Bodega Puerto De Santa Maria)--Good Health,
Long Life, Many Children and if you MUST run before the bulls, may you
be fleet of foot, and agile in your flight--Salut!!!!!!
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gentes/Familiae |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:32:48 US/Central |
|
Salvete
> This work is the only place I've seen any referance to
> a Gens head in early Roma, and it has no factual
> information beyond the name.
>
> The postion of Incises was extinct by the time of the
> Republic,...
Considering the dearth of historians who claim the office existed and the
apparent utter lack of historical evidence for it, it would seem more correct
to assume that the incises never existed.
Considering the fact that gentes were already fairly large by the time of
Romulus' village, having already been organized into 30 curiae to vote upon
leges and the appointment of magistrates, and considering that the curiae were
overseen by curiones, or priests of the curiae, it seems most likely that the
curiones fulfilled a role that was relatively similar to what Engels et al
envisioned for the incises. However, this role had nothing like the power that
we give to patresfamilias. Adoptions into the curiae were the subject of votes
by the entire Comitia Curiata, and not the whim of the curiones.
Also, Nova Roma purports to be a reconstruction of the Republic. Fairly early
on, the Comitia Curiata ceased to be of any import, since its functions were
assumed by the Comitia Centuriata as the ordo plebeius won more and more
rights. By the early middle Republic, the Comitia Curiata was an entirely
symbolic body which conferred imperium upon magistrates without the right of
refusal--as it is in Nova Roma.
> That is NOT to say that one of the Paters in a
> Gens didn't achive domminance over a Gens through his
> Dignitas and Auctoritas. A Republican Gens would
> include clients and freemen, and allthough these men
> were Paters of their families they would have taken
> any important decessions to their Patron.
The familia *included* clientes, which included freedmen. A paterfamilias
still enjoyed most of the patria potestas over such people. This was
especially the case with freedmen. Only someone fully emancipated became fully
sui iuris.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Gentes/Familiae |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:19:00 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, censor Cincinnate.
--- Lucius Equitius <vze23hw7@--------> wrote:
> Censor Cincinnatus: Does this really matter? I don't think so. As we
> have done in so many other cultural matters within Nova Roma, we have
> had to make adjustment to "modern sensibilities".
Yes we have. And righteously so. But I don't see how "modern
sensibilities" will feel more comfortable with our current
antihistorical system. I think that the historical system would not
hurt "modern sensibilities" any more than the current one (perhaps even
less), and would add cohesion to our whole system. I really think it is
worth the effort.
> I don't think changing the term 'Gens' to 'Familia' will solve
> anything. What we need are ways to deal with "Citizens" who have
> authority, which Paters and Maters do, who disappear. When a Pater
> disappears, he effectively locks up the 'nomen' he has registered and
> no one else can use it. Also, when this happens many applications are
> not approved (some end up joining other gens) and some applicants
> simply lose interest.
This is certainly a serious problem. Being a relatively new citizen, I
still remember what I felt during the process. I think that a higher
level of information to prospective citizens from the censores (about
the status of their application, why is it taking so long, and what can
they do to speed the process) would be more benefical in this aspect.
Perhaps the approach of the censores should change from passive ("If
anyone asks me something, I will be happy to help") to active ("I am
sending this e-mail to you, prospective citizen X, to inform you about
the state of your application").
> I *still* believe that having Gens register and pay a fee (annual or
> biannual) with an additional fee for each gens member is the way to
> go, but we'll see how the tax works out.
>
> I want to thank Legatus Gnaeus Salix Astur for his kind statements in
> support of the manner in which I've organized gens Equitia. I quite
> agree that is should be the 'official' way, but I've not chosen to
> enforce my strict views on others, at least not in this case ;-)
You are welcome, but I sincerely believe in what I said. I support your
organization of gens Equitia because it is closer to historical
correctness. I just wish that kind of organization received an official
acknowledgement, and became the organization of every familia and gens
"a priori". If the members of one familia or gens decide to digress
from historical practice, let them do it. But let's not impose an
antihistorical organization for no reason but "that is too
complicated". Even more so when it isn't complicated at all.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
Piparskeggr - Venator <catamount_grange@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:51:30 -0500 |
|
Avete,
Murder most foul.
My Prayers that,
Those Who Ease Hurt be kindly unto
the families of the slain and injured.
My words of grief for the loss and sadness.
--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives Nova Romana et Paterfamilias
Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html
Aut cervisae aut nihil!
(either beer, or nothing!)
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
rckovak@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:08:53 -0000 |
|
This attack is shocking and horrible. It saddens me to see anger and
hatred causing such terrible loss of life. My sympathy and prayers
go out to the victims and their families, and to the citizens of Zug
& all of Switzerland.
Valete,
Helena Galeria
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
radams36@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:28:29 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, tiberius.ann@b... wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Today tragedy had a go at my homecountry.
>
> We are deeply disturbed by such events happening so fast after each
other.
>
> We have today received the horrible news of the killing of many
members
> of the parliament of the canton of Zug.
> At 10:30 a man in police uniform (a swiss citizen) stormed into the
room,
> where the parliament of the canton of Zug was assembled. He was
armed with
> a swiss army rifle, a handgun and a handgrenade.
> He emptied 3 magazines into the crowd and used the handgrenade
before killing
> himself with the handgun.
> The cause:
> He had a fight with drivers of the trams and busses in Zug and
parliament
> did not approve his complaint.
> Conclusion:
> 3 dead representatives of the canton Zug in the swiss parliament,
one of
> them a woman, and eleven dead members of the parliament of the
canton of
> Zug, one of them also a woman, and 2 very badly wounded members of
the swiss
> parliament and 8 very badly wounded members of the parliament of
Zug.
> After the horrible attack on the WTC, fate has now hit our country
hard.
> This is unbelievable. We are all very shocked and disturbed. As a
sign of
> our grief, the head of swiss government has put the flags on half
mast and
> ordered a period of mourning for the whole country until Sunday.
> In the name of the government of the people of the region of
germaniae superioris
> I give my regards to all the people involved in this incident. All
the families,
> but also the canton of Zug. We condole from all our heart and feel
with
> you. Our thoughts are in these hours with our swiss citizens.
> In silent grief,
Salvete,
My humblest condolences on your loss. It's terrible to see so many
productive lives cut off by one individual's maniacal behaviour - my
best wishes go out to the Swiss people in sympathy for this awful
tragedy.
Valete,
Rufus Iulius Palaeologus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <manius_constantinus_serapio@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:01:18 -0000 |
|
AVETE
I would like to express my sincere condolences for what happened.
I am shocked, and I am trying to react to the recent tragedies.
As a human being, I am sorry for what somebody did. I will include
those people in my prayers.
VALETE OMNES MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Civis Provinciae Italiae
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > Today tragedy had a go at my homecountry.
> >
> > We are deeply disturbed by such events happening so fast after
each
> other.
> >
> > We have today received the horrible news of the killing of many
> members
> > of the parliament of the canton of Zug.
> > At 10:30 a man in police uniform (a swiss citizen) stormed into
the
> room,
> > where the parliament of the canton of Zug was assembled. He was
> armed with
> > a swiss army rifle, a handgun and a handgrenade.
> > He emptied 3 magazines into the crowd and used the handgrenade
> before killing
> > himself with the handgun.
> > The cause:
> > He had a fight with drivers of the trams and busses in Zug and
> parliament
> > did not approve his complaint.
> > Conclusion:
> > 3 dead representatives of the canton Zug in the swiss parliament,
> one of
> > them a woman, and eleven dead members of the parliament of the
> canton of
> > Zug, one of them also a woman, and 2 very badly wounded members
of
> the swiss
> > parliament and 8 very badly wounded members of the parliament of
> Zug.
> > After the horrible attack on the WTC, fate has now hit our
country
> hard.
> > This is unbelievable. We are all very shocked and disturbed. As a
> sign of
> > our grief, the head of swiss government has put the flags on half
> mast and
> > ordered a period of mourning for the whole country until Sunday.
> > In the name of the government of the people of the region of
> germaniae superioris
> > I give my regards to all the people involved in this incident.
All
> the families,
> > but also the canton of Zug. We condole from all our heart and
feel
> with
> > you. Our thoughts are in these hours with our swiss citizens.
> > In silent grief,
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tragedy strikes in Swiss parliament |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
28 Sep 2001 12:01:21 -0300 |
|
Salvete,
condoleances to my Swiss brothers
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Spain |
| From: |
Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:24:09 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Well in explaining my understanding of democracy I do
not have the text I learned from to make direct
reference so I will do my best off the top of my head.
What I learned in my comparative politics class was
that there are different forms of democracy. There is
a "true" democaracy which is basically the ideal to
which all democratic nations strive in the structure
of their governemnt but never can achieve. Nothing is
perfect so like humans our government won't be
perfect. Then you have what is known as a "pseudo"
democracy which is what the authoritartian regimes in
Africa had set up when we (the United States) were
trying to democratize those nations we aided but
wanted something in return. So as we were doing that
those African nations, after being plagued by
colonialism and the authoritarian rule it created or
that was created as a result of it, set up democratic
institutions but basically were doing the bare
minimum. Then in this chain of differing democracies
you have then the present day democracies. The reason
I referred to the Federal Republic of Germany and the
United kingdom as democracies is cause (a) they have
elections, and (b) they elect their reps to
parliament, whether they directly elect the party or
individual. The reason I called them democratic is
cause from my learning they fall under what is called
Proportional Representation (PR)then there is a
specific name for the type of democracy that the
United States follows but it slips my mind at the
present moment. I'm not saying these are not
democracies but that they are not "true" democracies
and that again "true" democracy is what we all strive
to achieve.
Quintus Cornelius Caesar
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Land for Nova Roma |
| From: |
"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:13:22 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@--------> wrote:
> Ave,
> I just have a few things I wanted to address.
> First off is the topic of land concerning Nova Roma.
> Now if Nova Roma is going to obtain lands in any way
> it needs to be available to all.
<snipped>
Not meaning to be rude, but haven't you been reading the
suggestions? It seems what has been suggested is to have a
cultural capital someplace once controled by Rome and to also
have several small outposts so everyone can visit "Nova Roma".
As you can see, there is no way for the Nova Roma government
to pay for everything, so I propose that the Senate only really
worry about the cultural capitol for now. To handel the smaller
outposts, either each citizen that owns land should worry about it
if they want, or maybe some sort of provincial government should
be formed to handle it. If we formed provincial governments then
we could have a province capitol that also serves as the Nova
Roma outpost for the region. Maybe we could do all of these and
have a cultural capitol, a provincial capitol in each province, and
several small outposts.
> Now it has come to my attention that there was a case
> of embezzlement a little ways back where an individual
> took money. Now, we need to find a way to put up
> security measures to protect funds for land(s) and
> conserve money to purchase the land(s).
<Snipped>
Maybe some sort of council made up of trusted members should
be formed by Senate for this.
> Quintus Cornelius Caesar
>
Marcus Cornelius Tiberius
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: Land for Nova Roma |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:40:18 -0400 |
|
Salvete;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CJ Sitter [mailto:otto_von_sitter@--------]
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 4:13 PM
>
> Maybe some sort of council made up of trusted members should
> be formed by Senate for this.
With respect, I think it's entirely premature to be forming such a
committee. Once the Land Fund has some real weight to it, then by all means
let's do. But right now there is barely enough money in the Land Fund to buy
a bus ticket to Sheboygan, let alone buy actual land. Until we have
sufficient funds to seriously entertain the possibility of purchasing real
estate, appointing a committee is silly.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
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