Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	15 Oct 2001 21:02:04 -0200

On Mon, 2001-10-15 at 14:07, Michael Loughlin wrote:
> Ave,
> well terrorism is apparently thw ord of the day
> here. But people seem to be using the term blindly
> without consideration of a definition. Terrosism has
> a four part definition: 1) minimum of 3-4 people dead,
> 2.) innocent victims, 3.)act of violence in a public
> theatre, 4.) political objective.

Great we use the same definition, we should be able to talk on solid
bases.

> Now if one wanted
> to they could legitimately argue our violence is an
> act of terrorism. HOWEVER, we are not the actor in
> this case but the reactor.

Partially agreed. There is something that incomodes me with
the WTC tragedy: No revendication and instead denial of any
implication by both Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda. Where is the
political objective if they really did it?

No proof either of their implication even with all the policial effort
direct to one goal: find proofs against Bin Laden (and not resolve the
case). With all partial evidence we have another group could well
have manipulated the fanatics which commited that crime.

> it could be said that
> terrorists react but they tend to instigate reactions
> like this world wide. Terrorism comes in all forms
> state sponsored and group sponsored. It is just a
> matter of the justification behind the act and whether
> the group commands the power to justify politically
> throughout the world and receive support.

Totally agreed, another form to remove the name of terrorism
is to win, after that the "terrorists" become "partisans".
This already happened to Bin Laden: terrorist for the soviets partisan
for the afghans and the USA, still a partisan for the afghans but a
terrorist for the USA: he is the same man, same ideas , same way
of action.

> So in
> essence our terrorism is justified. Whether you call
> me a bigot etc. for this I say a crime has been
> committed on US soil and people must pay and if that
> means the loss of life of members of Al Qaeda and
> Afghans then so be it.

A crime has been commited on US soil, the responsible should be
punished, we totally agree on that point. We perhaps disagree on
the sentence to applied (by principle for me: no killing) but that
is not the point here.
The last time a terrorist crime killed hundreds of people in the USA
the responsible had a fair trial were all rights of the defense were
respected (even delaying the execution of the sentence in order to be
totally sure of this point), is anything similar offered to Bin Laden?
Would, with todays evidences Bin Laden be condemned in a fair trial?
I really doubt it.
Would an american hero (Bin Laden IS an afghan Hero) be extradited with
such little evidence of his implication in a crime let s say in Cuba or
China, again I doubt it. With solid proofs, yes I suppose he would be
extradited, but not on the bases of so little indirect evidences.

> But if anyone is gonna label
> the US terrorists in the future step back for a minute
> and look at the "terrorism" your respective countries
> have committed against other countries as well as
> their own people. If anyone here wishes to dispute
> that I will gladly point out the terrorist behaviors
> from each of your nations. No country is without its
> fault

No country is without faults (well perhaps some micronations like San
Marino etc.). Surely Brasil cannot be proud of its behaviour for example
in the Paraguay war (90% of the paraguaian population vanished in the
conflict). But since no country is without fault if for this we all stay
still against injustices, they will go on for ever.

> and people who do not reside their have no right
> to criticize that nation for its actions when they
> clearly do not understand the people, culture, and the
> reasons why.

Here we totally disagree, to the opposite I think it is the duty of all
humans to stand up when another human is injusticed. He has also the
duty to try to understand the people, culture and the reasons why.
In fact it does not seem to me this effort is done in order to
understand the afghansand their extremely high sense of hospitality,
which even without any juridical consideration pushes them to dye
instead of delivering over an estimated guest to his ennemies.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:35:06 -0000

My take on this is just that this guylikes to make us mad every
once in a while when things slow down a bit. I still remember
back when he said the press was showing Pakistanians
cheering at US retaking Kuait instead of at the destruction of the
WTC. I agree with our Consul and the several others that are
calling for this man's dismissal. Someone that enjoys wreaking
havok does not deserve the privilige to be called a citizen of New
Rome.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> one week of continued terrorist attacks against one of the
poorest
> country in the world, hundreds of innocents dead among them
several
> world citizens probably thousands of combatants.
>
> And here in NovaRoma not one voice of condoleances for the
deads
> not one voice of condennation of this terrorist attack by the USA
and
> the UK.
>
> I am really desappointed by my fellow concitizens in
NovaRoma (and
> enjoyed by my fellow brazilians).
>
> I hereby express my condoleance to the Afghans and all
humans that were
> attacked by this new vague of state terrorism. I hereby
condemn the
> state terrorism at act.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:02:45 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> one week of continued terrorist attacks against one
> of the poorest
> country in the world, hundreds of innocents dead
> among them several
> world citizens probably thousands of combatants.
>
> And here in NovaRoma not one voice of condoleances
> for the deads
> not one voice of condennation of this terrorist
> attack by the USA and
> the UK.
>
> I am really desappointed by my fellow concitizens in
> NovaRoma (and
> enjoyed by my fellow brazilians).
>
> I hereby express my condoleance to the Afghans and
> all humans that were
> attacked by this new vague of state terrorism. I
> hereby condemn the
> state terrorism at act.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Salvete Omnes,

I would like to make a few points about this post.

First the Taliban regime is NOT the legitimate
government of Afghanistan. The United Nations and the
vast majority of it's members still recognize the
government that the Taliban drove into exile. The
legitimate government of Afghanistan approves of the
aiestrikes by the United States and the United Kingdom
against Al Qaeda and it's Taliban faction. Since these
raids are being staged with the support of the
legitimate government of Afghanistan.

The Government of Afghanistan is supporting thes raids
against the Terrorist gangs controling most of
Afghanistan because of the brutal nature of these
gangs. They have murdered tens of thousands of
Afghanis, They stage political assassinations like the
one against the leader of the Northern Alliance that
preceded the attacks on the United States. They are
waging cultural warfare against minorities in a
culturaly diverse nation. They use the soccer stadiums
to stage public executions to keep the people cowed.
Then have deprived Women of ALL civil rights. It is
illegal to educate women on pain of death. Thousands
of women have died because of a ban on medical care
for women. Food Argriculture was cut back to increase
Poppy production for the Herion Black market, with the
funds going to sponser Government Terrorism creating a
food shortage before recent draughts made it worse.
Women can be publicly beaten by the police without
trail for the least offense. They are attempting to
force All Afghanis into their Wahabist inspired cult,
and are presuing Shia' Muslams with a vengance. Great
works of art from antiquity have been destroyed as
"idols"

The Taliban is part of Al Qaeda, which openly
professes it's desire to create an Islamic Empire by
overthrowing the governments of all Islamic nations
and uniting them under a Caliph, with the Islamic
Empire ruled on the same principals as the portions of
Afghanistan that the Taliban faction controls.

In Short we are faced with an Impearlist gang that
violates allmost every thing that Liberals in the
Western nations speak out against, and most Liberals
HAVE spoken out against this Barbaric regime. There is
one group that persists in attacking the efforts of
the United States to rid Afghanistan of this vile
gang, that is the left's lunatic fringe.

Why do they persist in attacking the United States?
It's simple, The love they profess for the poor is a
lie. They are sick twisted little creatures who are
only capable of a single emotion, a blind hatred for
the United States. That is all that drives them,
everything else they parrot is just excuses they use
to try the fill the void where other men have souls
with high sounding principles.

These depraved creatures are who CLAIM to look after
the intrests of the people of Afghanistan are
attempting the inhumane act of robbing the Afghanis of
the aid they need to overthrow the despotic rule of
the Talibandits, not because they fear for their
safety, but because they can't stand the thought that
the nation they hate will receive the credit for
saving them. They are willing to leave the Afghanis in
the Hell the Taliban have created, just to spite the
United States.

So much for this pitiful attempt to "condemn" the
forces that are comming to the rescue of the Afghani
people.

That being said, I do offer my heartfelt condolances
to the people of Afghanistan. To those who have
already lost loved ones in the effort to liberate
Afghanistan and to those who are fated to lose members
of their families. I also offer condolances to the
Afghani families of the victims of the Taliban Terror,
and promise them "You will be avenged".

There is one last point that needs to be made. The
citizens of Afghanistan are NOT responsible for the
barbaric regime that rules most of their nation. It
has victimized them far worse than it's Terrorist
agents victimized the United States, and they do not
have the wealth that the United States does to help
them through their trials.

I ask all citizens of Nova Roma to contact the United
Nations agencies that are seeking to aid the Afghani
people, to Contact your local Red Cross or Red
Crescent, to donate to the fund that President Bush
announced last week. The innocent victims of Al Qaeda
in Afghanistan need help, and it's a matter of life
and death.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propreator America Austrorientalis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@-------->
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,
Well glad to see more sense was made in that
response. However in response to a few of the
opinions you made I must say this:
No Bin Laden would not receive a fair trial here
or anywhere else. He is guilty of numerous offenses
prior to September 11th and would be found guilty of
those too. The US is not the only one who would try
him. If I'm not mistaken he is linked to a terrorist
attack in france on US men. The man in this country
would not live either. Once he was processed through
our criminal justice system he would ultimately
receive a death sentence. So it really does not
matter if we kill him there or here. However if we
seek his death we must apprehend the body for the
Taliban and Al Qaeda would never let us see him dead.
The evidence is lacking? The man implicates himself
more and more evrytime he opens his mouth. Why put
him on trial when we can put him on tv. We don't need
to convict him he's doing it himself
quintus cornelius caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 03:57:55 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Novoromanis S.P.D.

Normally I find the remarks of Limitanus to be refreshingly
frank and unprejudiced, and to always show a coincern for
justice and human freedom. In the case of his last attack
on the actions of the Contra-terrorism Coalition, however,
I must take strong exception to his comments, and hope that
he will forgive me in this case.

The bombing of the Taliban theocratic dictatorship is not
"terrorism", a term which has a very specific meaning. The
fire bombings of Dresden and T�ky�, and the atomic bombs on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not "terrorism", however
terrible they were and however many innocent persons
(children for example) were killed.

It might not be so important that a word is misused a bit,
but this particular misuse might seem to lead to a
conclusion that "terrorism=terrorism" so that the vast
moral gulf between freelance mass murderer of innocents on
the one hand and justly punitive attacks at the guilty on
the other becomes obscured.

The Taliban were asked to submit Osama bin Laden for trial
(not murder, torture, etc., but for legal *trial*,
presumably by the United States federal courts, which have
an excellent reputation). He is a private citizen who has
chosen to murder random foreign nationals in a country
which was in a state of peace with his native land (Saudi
Arabia) and his host nation (Afghanistan). In such a case
it is natural that a country harbouring him should give him
up, and that it should be considered as having committed an
act of war if it refuses to do so.

I completely agree with Limitanus that we should mourn the
innocents who suffer in any war situation. They are
suffering purely by accident, though, not by intent.
Obviously if there were better ways of killing Taliban and
Bin Laden's minions without killing innocent civilians,
they would be used.

I do not personally believe in retributive justice. If we
could be sure that Bin Laden and his collaborators would
never again stage a terrorist attack, I would favour
letting them go scot free. Vengence is not justice. No
punishment will bring back the dead. Unfortunately, the
perpetrators and others like them would only be encouraged
in their evil deeds if they were not taken out of
circulation. A President of the United States whose people
have just been murdered in the thousands in the course of
their normal, law-abiding activities by the whim of a
malicious private citizen and his accomplices cannot sit
back and do nothing, nor should he.

Now, thinking on Graecus' post, I think I might add that
the pathological antipathy towards the United States on the
part of many Arabs and Moslems is no excuse for the
attrocities recently committed. Islamic civilisation,
despite its many admirable cultural triumphs in the past,
has failed to assimilate many of the values of
Roman-Western civilisation that are essential in the modern
world: democracy, equality of the sexes, and freedom of
critical thought. The result of this has been essentially
backward countries, even where oil makes them wealthy. In a
certain sense they have only themselves to blame. They were
once ahead of Europe and allowed themselves to fall behind.
The jihads of expansion did successfully spread Islam,
while the Christian crusaders were eventually pushed into
the sea - and even our eastern capital of Constantinople
fell to Islam. It is hard not to feel that the present
backwardness in human rights, democracy, indigenous
technology, and non-petroleum economy is due to a flaw in
the civilisation. If it has been exploited or oppressed,
that is only because it allowed itself to become
retrogressive and weak - that is a symptom, not a cause.

That the United States supported and still supports some
nasty r�gimes such as that of Saudi Arabia - a little
better than the Taliban, but not much - is indeed not to
its credit. However, even when the U.S. does not support a
r�gime in this sphere, we still get governments like those
in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Afghanistan. And is it any
accident that whereas India (of mixed but mostly
polytheistic culture) has a vibrant (if humanly imperfect)
democracy, Pakistan (a decidedly Islamic state) has not
been able to sustain one, but has lurched along from one
military dictatorship to another?

The U.S. has also supported Israel. And that is a simple
recognition from the end of W.W. II, when it was perceived
that the decimated Jewish people deserved support to build
a land of their own after the most inconceivable
sufferings. Many Palestinians left Israel when it was
formed in the expectation that when Arab armies rushed in
to destroy the infant nation, they could return and take
away the Israeli lands. When Israel refused to die, they
were left outside. Israel treated its Arab minority left
inside decently, including giving it the right to vote
without the responsibility of serving in the army against
fellow Arabs. Those outside it refused to allow back, as it
intended for very special historically-determined reasons
to be a predominantly Jewish state. The United States has
remembered all this and has supported Israel's right to
exist and be a haven for the Jews, which they had not had
since Roman times, and which led to their endless
mistreatment. The U.S. is, in my opinion, right in so
doing.

I also support a viable state for the Palestinians -
although Jordan was originally envisaged by the U.N. as
their part of Palestine. They must give up claims to
Jerusalem and to a "right of return" to Israeli lands,
however, and must cease themselves to support terrorism as
a means of furthering their cause. (I note that the
Zionists once used terrorism - and that they stopped.)
Israel in return must hand many of its settlements over to
the Palestinians - with or without the inhabitants.

The U.S. has tried to help both sides in this process, but
has rightly leaned in favour of the truly persecuted Jews,
the truly democratic state of Israel, and the obvious
minority which might easily be overwhelmed without help.

Despite Arab grumbling, the United States has done
relatively little mischief in Arab/Islamic lands. And the
inhabitants have never shown that they can do better when
they are left alone. The real solution to the problem is
for Islamic civilisation to reform itself. Once it was a
progressive force in the world, in some places even with
respect to tolerance of other religions and the protection
of women. But it was unwilling to adapt and advance, it was
too litteralistic sometimes, too concerned with submission
and authority instead of freedom as a positive value. If it
wishes to be a positive and respected thing in the world
again, it must give up on terrorism, self-pity and rage,
and concentrate on incorporating the essentials of the
Roman-Western civilisation into the heart of its own
culture and make them a part of 21st century Islam.

Until it accomplishes this, the insane actions of the likes
of Osama bin Laden in the name of his civilisation must be
curtailed using the traditional means of war. This is not a
perfect solution, but it is the only viable solution we
have. Inaction or action so weak that it might as well be
inaction are no solution. The Taliban were already guilty
of crimes against humanity among their own people, and even
if some innocent Afghanis are *accidentally* killed, it may
well be that many more lives - probably those of innocent
women - will be saved by the removal of the Taliban.
Perhaps the satisfaction felt in that fact mutes the
feeling of compassion for those harmed as an unintended
byproduct of this victory for decency and freedom.

Let us then mourn them and express our condolences- as long
as this does not weaken our resolve to root out the real
terrorists - who are *not* the U.S. and the U.K.

Valete!

From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Subject: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance
to the afghans

Salvete,

one week of continued terrorist attacks against one of the
poorest
country in the world, hundreds of innocents dead among them

several
world citizens probably thousands of combatants.

And here in NovaRoma not one voice of condoleances for the
deads not one voice of condennation of this terrorist
attack by the USA and the UK.

I am really desappointed by my fellow concitizens in
NovaRoma
(and
enjoyed by my fellow brazilians).

I hereby express my condoleance to the Afghans and all
humans that were attacked by this new vague of state
terrorism. I hereby condemn the state terrorism at act.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:28:38 -0400

I send MY condolences to all the innocent Afghan women, children, and dissident men who have been imprisoned in their homes, starved slowly to death, tortured or outright executed by the dispicable Taliban regime since 1994. Now, FINALLY, something is being done to stomp that regime out of existance. I hope that no innocents die, which I realize is a futile wish. I also know that any who do, do so because of the Taliban and Bin Laden. After all, sometimes, despite the best efforts of SWAT teams and police departments, hostages die. Should we then allow kidnappers free rein? I don't think so. And what are these terrorists, these Taliban, if not hostage takers and kidnappers? We should have treated them as such (I speak of the United Nations, here) as they made their original bid for power.
Helena Galeria
----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Loos
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:24 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans

Salvete,

one week of continued terrorist attacks against one of the poorest
country in the world, hundreds of innocents dead among them several
world citizens probably thousands of combatants.

And here in NovaRoma not one voice of condoleances for the deads
not one voice of condennation of this terrorist attack by the USA and
the UK.

I am really desappointed by my fellow concitizens in NovaRoma (and
enjoyed by my fellow brazilians).

I hereby express my condoleance to the Afghans and all humans that were
attacked by this new vague of state terrorism. I hereby condemn the
state terrorism at act.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:31:24 -0000

---Salve Formosane:

A very well articulated post, and I find myself in agreement with all
but a couple of miniscule points, lacking any utilitarian need for
debate.

I very much agree with your moral analysis and reasoning on this
issue.

Vale Bene,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Novoromanis S.P.D.
>
> Normally I find the remarks of Limitanus to be refreshingly
> frank and unprejudiced, and to always show a coincern for
> justice and human freedom. In the case of his last attack
> on the actions of the Contra-terrorism Coalition, however,
> I must take strong exception to his comments, and hope that
> he will forgive me in this case.
>
> The bombing of the Taliban theocratic dictatorship is not
> "terrorism", a term which has a very specific meaning. The
> fire bombings of Dresden and T�ky�, and the atomic bombs on
> Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not "terrorism", however
> terrible they were and however many innocent persons
> (children for example) were killed.
>
> It might not be so important that a word is misused a bit,
> but this particular misuse might seem to lead to a
> conclusion that "terrorism=terrorism" so that the vast
> moral gulf between freelance mass murderer of innocents on
> the one hand and justly punitive attacks at the guilty on
> the other becomes obscured.
>
> The Taliban were asked to submit Osama bin Laden for trial
> (not murder, torture, etc., but for legal *trial*,
> presumably by the United States federal courts, which have
> an excellent reputation). He is a private citizen who has
> chosen to murder random foreign nationals in a country
> which was in a state of peace with his native land (Saudi
> Arabia) and his host nation (Afghanistan). In such a case
> it is natural that a country harbouring him should give him
> up, and that it should be considered as having committed an
> act of war if it refuses to do so.
>
> I completely agree with Limitanus that we should mourn the
> innocents who suffer in any war situation. They are
> suffering purely by accident, though, not by intent.
> Obviously if there were better ways of killing Taliban and
> Bin Laden's minions without killing innocent civilians,
> they would be used.
>
> I do not personally believe in retributive justice. If we
> could be sure that Bin Laden and his collaborators would
> never again stage a terrorist attack, I would favour
> letting them go scot free. Vengence is not justice. No
> punishment will bring back the dead. Unfortunately, the
> perpetrators and others like them would only be encouraged
> in their evil deeds if they were not taken out of
> circulation. A President of the United States whose people
> have just been murdered in the thousands in the course of
> their normal, law-abiding activities by the whim of a
> malicious private citizen and his accomplices cannot sit
> back and do nothing, nor should he.
>
> Now, thinking on Graecus' post, I think I might add that
> the pathological antipathy towards the United States on the
> part of many Arabs and Moslems is no excuse for the
> attrocities recently committed. Islamic civilisation,
> despite its many admirable cultural triumphs in the past,
> has failed to assimilate many of the values of
> Roman-Western civilisation that are essential in the modern
> world: democracy, equality of the sexes, and freedom of
> critical thought. The result of this has been essentially
> backward countries, even where oil makes them wealthy. In a
> certain sense they have only themselves to blame. They were
> once ahead of Europe and allowed themselves to fall behind.
> The jihads of expansion did successfully spread Islam,
> while the Christian crusaders were eventually pushed into
> the sea - and even our eastern capital of Constantinople
> fell to Islam. It is hard not to feel that the present
> backwardness in human rights, democracy, indigenous
> technology, and non-petroleum economy is due to a flaw in
> the civilisation. If it has been exploited or oppressed,
> that is only because it allowed itself to become
> retrogressive and weak - that is a symptom, not a cause.
>
> That the United States supported and still supports some
> nasty r�gimes such as that of Saudi Arabia - a little
> better than the Taliban, but not much - is indeed not to
> its credit. However, even when the U.S. does not support a
> r�gime in this sphere, we still get governments like those
> in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Afghanistan. And is it any
> accident that whereas India (of mixed but mostly
> polytheistic culture) has a vibrant (if humanly imperfect)
> democracy, Pakistan (a decidedly Islamic state) has not
> been able to sustain one, but has lurched along from one
> military dictatorship to another?
>
> The U.S. has also supported Israel. And that is a simple
> recognition from the end of W.W. II, when it was perceived
> that the decimated Jewish people deserved support to build
> a land of their own after the most inconceivable
> sufferings. Many Palestinians left Israel when it was
> formed in the expectation that when Arab armies rushed in
> to destroy the infant nation, they could return and take
> away the Israeli lands. When Israel refused to die, they
> were left outside. Israel treated its Arab minority left
> inside decently, including giving it the right to vote
> without the responsibility of serving in the army against
> fellow Arabs. Those outside it refused to allow back, as it
> intended for very special historically-determined reasons
> to be a predominantly Jewish state. The United States has
> remembered all this and has supported Israel's right to
> exist and be a haven for the Jews, which they had not had
> since Roman times, and which led to their endless
> mistreatment. The U.S. is, in my opinion, right in so
> doing.
>
> I also support a viable state for the Palestinians -
> although Jordan was originally envisaged by the U.N. as
> their part of Palestine. They must give up claims to
> Jerusalem and to a "right of return" to Israeli lands,
> however, and must cease themselves to support terrorism as
> a means of furthering their cause. (I note that the
> Zionists once used terrorism - and that they stopped.)
> Israel in return must hand many of its settlements over to
> the Palestinians - with or without the inhabitants.
>
> The U.S. has tried to help both sides in this process, but
> has rightly leaned in favour of the truly persecuted Jews,
> the truly democratic state of Israel, and the obvious
> minority which might easily be overwhelmed without help.
>
> Despite Arab grumbling, the United States has done
> relatively little mischief in Arab/Islamic lands. And the
> inhabitants have never shown that they can do better when
> they are left alone. The real solution to the problem is
> for Islamic civilisation to reform itself. Once it was a
> progressive force in the world, in some places even with
> respect to tolerance of other religions and the protection
> of women. But it was unwilling to adapt and advance, it was
> too litteralistic sometimes, too concerned with submission
> and authority instead of freedom as a positive value. If it
> wishes to be a positive and respected thing in the world
> again, it must give up on terrorism, self-pity and rage,
> and concentrate on incorporating the essentials of the
> Roman-Western civilisation into the heart of its own
> culture and make them a part of 21st century Islam.
>
> Until it accomplishes this, the insane actions of the likes
> of Osama bin Laden in the name of his civilisation must be
> curtailed using the traditional means of war. This is not a
> perfect solution, but it is the only viable solution we
> have. Inaction or action so weak that it might as well be
> inaction are no solution. The Taliban were already guilty
> of crimes against humanity among their own people, and even
> if some innocent Afghanis are *accidentally* killed, it may
> well be that many more lives - probably those of innocent
> women - will be saved by the removal of the Taliban.
> Perhaps the satisfaction felt in that fact mutes the
> feeling of compassion for those harmed as an unintended
> byproduct of this victory for decency and freedom.
>
> Let us then mourn them and express our condolences- as long
> as this does not weaken our resolve to root out the real
> terrorists - who are *not* the U.S. and the U.K.
>
> Valete!
>
>
> From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
> Subject: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance
> to the afghans
>
> Salvete,
>
> one week of continued terrorist attacks against one of the
> poorest
> country in the world, hundreds of innocents dead among them
>
> several
> world citizens probably thousands of combatants.
>
> And here in NovaRoma not one voice of condoleances for the
> deads not one voice of condennation of this terrorist
> attack by the USA and the UK.
>
> I am really desappointed by my fellow concitizens in
> NovaRoma
> (and
> enjoyed by my fellow brazilians).
>
> I hereby express my condoleance to the Afghans and all
> humans that were attacked by this new vague of state
> terrorism. I hereby condemn the state terrorism at act.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> _________________________________________________
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
> Magister Scholae Latinae
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus
> Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
> Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
> ____________________________________________________
> All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is
for
> enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
> ___________________________________________________


Subject:	[novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:35:33 -0000

Salvete,

Quirites, I am going to mark this day on my calendar. It is the first
time I can ever recall agreeing completely with a post made by
Formosanus!

If I had my way I'd put this particular speech up on the Nova Roma
website, entitled "A Nova Roman View of the Current Crisis." I find
it the most refreshing piece of oratory I've seen in quite some time.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:39:22 -0700

Ave,

I must add my two cents, in that I too agree with M. Apollonius's post!

Consul maybe we can make a part on the Camneum for rhetoric or places where we can view pieces of oratory! :)

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Cassius Julianus
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)

Salvete,

Quirites, I am going to mark this day on my calendar. It is the first
time I can ever recall agreeing completely with a post made by
Formosanus!

If I had my way I'd put this particular speech up on the Nova Roma
website, entitled "A Nova Roman View of the Current Crisis." I find
it the most refreshing piece of oratory I've seen in quite some time.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul


Subject:	[novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:56:12 -0000

---Hear, Hear Marcus Cassius!!!!!!!

The post, as I see it, was very "Apollonian" in nature.........

Ave Formosane!!!!!!!!

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, "Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@a...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> Quirites, I am going to mark this day on my calendar. It is the
first
> time I can ever recall agreeing completely with a post made by
> Formosanus!
>
> If I had my way I'd put this particular speech up on the Nova Roma
> website, entitled "A Nova Roman View of the Current Crisis." I find
> it the most refreshing piece of oratory I've seen in quite some
time.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul

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Subject:	[novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:56:19 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Julianus Magnus
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:02:35 +1000 (EST)

Salvete,

I actually have something to relate to this. I was
wandering, lost in the vastness of my university
library the other day searching for information of the
attitudes of the Emperors to the Christians and of the
Ruler-cult in Rome, when I came across a very good
book. The name of the author escapes me, but it was
called "Julian: Pagan Prince or Pauper?", and was
quite a thick book considering the subject. I have
since tried to look up the book on-line, but cannot
find it anywhere and must conclude that it is out of
print. If you can find it, it's a real treasure.

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Caius Puteus Germanicus <puteus@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Ave! 
 
Fellow Romans, it is already some time ago that I read
some books on the emperor Julianus, the last real
Imperator, who tried to continue the real Roman
tradition by eradicating the christian heretics.
Because of his early death, he was called 'Apostata',
an heretic himself by the future generations. They
prefered a seemingly week emperor like Theodosius
being 'Magnus' simply because he was a christian. 
My question: is there anybody who has some good
information about this emperor (not only his works,
but his edicta against christians). I know of one
website, <a
href="http://www.juliansociety.org/,">http://www.juliansociety.org/,</a>
but there surely have to be more. Anyone? 
 
Vale, in pax deorum, 
C. Puteus Germanicus 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Code (III)
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:51:04 +1300

Salvete Quirites

Invalid Voter Codes (III)
Voter # 9098
Voter # 9100
Voter # 9108
Voter # 9109

Please try to vote again (if you have a real Voter Code), contact the Censors if your code is not working.

Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:50:28 -0000

Salve,

What a great idea, Sulla! There *ought* to be a "hall of fame" up on
the website for pieces of outstanding oratory.

There would have to be criteria I suppose. A piece would need to be
nominated in some way, say *not* by the author's two best friends or
Gens members. There might need to be set categories as well. (If
someone posted an outstandingly well done piece on why other Citizens
in NR suck, for instance, it would not enhance our community to put
that up on the site.)

Additionally, the author should get a chance to "re-work" a post if
necessary. Formosanus' post, for instance, was a specific reply to
another thread, and would need a bit of editing to make it stand
up "out of context".

Perhps this might even affect the general content of the list. If
good, thoughtful posts were rewarded, it might finally put an end to
some of the "I didn't call you a Nazi, I just said you act exactly
like a Nazi at all times and in all ways." types of posts. People
might think more, and take more time when they speak.

Anyone else think this is a good idea?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I must add my two cents, in that I too agree with M. Apollonius's
post!
>
> Consul maybe we can make a part on the Camneum for rhetoric or
places where we can view pieces of oratory! :)
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Cassius Julianus
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:35 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Quirites, I am going to mark this day on my calendar. It is the
first
> time I can ever recall agreeing completely with a post made by
> Formosanus!
>
> If I had my way I'd put this particular speech up on the Nova
Roma
> website, entitled "A Nova Roman View of the Current Crisis." I
find
> it the most refreshing piece of oratory I've seen in quite some
time.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:25:18 -0400

Salvete;

My phone call to the weather bureau in Hell has thusfar not been returned,
but I suspect that the Infernal Regions have, indeed, frozen over. Sulla,
Cassius, and now Germanicus all wholeheartedly praise a post by Formosanus!

What a world we live in, that has such wonders in it. :-)

Well done, Formosanus. Very well done.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 10:39 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
>
>
> Ave,
>
> I must add my two cents, in that I too agree with M. Apollonius's post!
>
> Consul maybe we can make a part on the Camneum for rhetoric or
> places where we can view pieces of oratory! :)
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Cassius Julianus
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:35 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Quirites, I am going to mark this day on my calendar. It is the first
> time I can ever recall agreeing completely with a post made by
> Formosanus!
>
> If I had my way I'd put this particular speech up on the Nova Roma
> website, entitled "A Nova Roman View of the Current Crisis." I find
> it the most refreshing piece of oratory I've seen in quite some time.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:22:51 -0000

Antonius Gryllus Graecus omnibus salutem

For the last time I'd like to call you all to reason and remind that
Nova Roma is not the USA, NATO, the EU or any other macronation in
particular. I understand that we are passing through difficult times,
but you should try to avoid affecting Nova Roma with the current
macronational problems. Namely, I am against the introduction in the
NR website of any piece of text relating to the war against Islam,
specially statements which - like Mr. Berlusconi's recent speech -
present the western civilizations as superior to Islam. I must
confess that I find the statements of President George W. Bush more
politically correct than the recent statement by civis M. Apollonius
Formosanus.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	16 Oct 2001 12:49:20 -0200

On Mon, 2001-10-15 at 15:53, amg@-------- wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> Firstly, I'd like you to forgive Manius Villius Limitanus. I believe -
> I may be wrong, but still I want to believe - that his revolt is
> only due to seeing civilians being killed in this war, and I'm sure
> that his condolences go to both the losses of September 11 and the
> Afghan people.
>

I was one of the first in NovaRoma to address my condoleances to the
September 11 victims and relatives (before the 2nd tower fell), some
minutes after you did (the first I read).

> Now, any analysis of the facts must be cold, for reason must be just,
> not emotive. But latter position is difficult (when not impossible)
> to attain when one is closely involved in the analysed situation. As
> such I ask everyone to keep the mouth shut about this conflict. Here
> we must be Romans independently of macronational politics. Both sides
> have their reasons and one must accept that. For the moslems, it is
> hard to see their fate being ruled by the interests of the western
> states based on the interest of the oil, and yes they think - not
> without some reason - that all western citizens who support or stay
> passive watching the capitalist governments act unfairly towards them
> are guilty, for everyone has a car (including me) and everyone needs
> oil and so everyone needs the govenment to keep the outrageous
> capitalist strategy in the Middle East, which causes the palestinian
> problem not to be solved (despite UN resolutions against Israel),
> Iraq to be bombed - while Turkey, which also kills Kurds is not - and
> so many innocent moslem civilians to be killed everyday with no
> reaction on the part of the UN or the citizens of the offending
> western countries who limit themselves to watch the news instead of
> going to the streets in protest asking their governments to change.
> On the other hand, the western citizens think - not without some
> reason - that the moslem enemies are fanatic and kill innocent
> civilians, have no respect for democracy, no respect for human
> rights, including no respect for the rights of women, no respect for
> other religions and cultures, etc.
>
> As Senator and Pontifex of Nova I will keep silent about this matter
> and declare my public neutrality. I have already seen deception and
> UN resolutions being violated by everyone: NATO, Taliban, Northern
> Aliance of Afghanistan (themselves criminals and homicides before the
> Taliban rose to power), Pakistan, Iraq, Turkey, Russia, etc.
>
> I lament all the innocent people harmed in this and other wars... In
> the same way that Seneca would the innocent people killed in the wars
> of his own time. But these are only words that do not improve
> anything. Are you happy now, Limitanus?

Extremelly, thank you a lot. I totally agree with you on all points,
what made me uneasy was the difference of treatments of the afghans
victims and the 11 september victims (or even the swiss victims of a
madman). Had NovaRoma be still on the first events, it would have been
normal to be still on the last one, this was not the case.

Thank you again

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Civilians in Democracy
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:03:31 EDT

In a message dated 10/15/01 8:09:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
haase@-------- writes:

> On 15 Oct 2001, Michel Loos wrote:
>
> > one week of continued terrorist attacks against one of the poorest
> > country in the world, hundreds of innocents dead among them several
> > world citizens probably thousands of combatants.
>
> The attacks currently underway against the evil Taliban regime are
> not "terrorist" by any sane definition. They are not sneak attacks
> targeting civilians. These are conventional military strikes, and
> no amount of whining by the ultra-rightist Taliban villains and their
> traitorous supporters in other countries will change that.

I'd just like to point out that the people of a democracy choose what their
leaders do, or so the supporters claim. Unless you'd care to renounce the
American government as a dictatorship, the people are responsible for its
actions, and therefore are legitimate military targets so long as they
support that particular government.

Also, I see nothing wrong with sneak attacks... Why give your enemy an
advantage they wouldnt have had without your stupidity?

But I would like to also say that I am very much for the removal of the
Taliban; yet just the same, I'm very much for the removal of the United State.

> > And here in NovaRoma not one voice of condoleances for the deads
> > not one voice of condennation of this terrorist attack by the USA and
> > the UK.

All attacks are terrorist. Terrorism is the use of force for the purpose of
intimidating your enemy into doing what you want. Given this broad
definition, which is the dictionary definition (though paraphrased), there's
no concievable reason to wage war on anyone that would allow that war to be
anything other than terrorist.

> Because there is no terrorist attack. You are spouting meaningless
> propoganda, created by those who would kill you for membership in
> a pagan-friendly group such as this.

I must agree it's just a spout of propaganda.

> > I am really desappointed by my fellow concitizens in NovaRoma (and
> > enjoyed by my fellow brazilians).
>
> Then leave. You are a traitor to the civilized world and you are not
> fit to associate with decent people.

Define civilized.

> - Octavius.

-Alex Novius


Subject:	[novaroma] Osama's Guilt
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:14:28 EDT

In a message dated 10/15/01 9:00:07 PM Central Daylight Time, bvm3@--------
writes:

> The Taliban were asked to submit Osama bin Laden for trial
> (not murder, torture, etc., but for legal *trial*,
> presumably by the United States federal courts, which have
> an excellent reputation). He is a private citizen who has
> chosen to murder random foreign nationals in a country
> which was in a state of peace with his native land (Saudi
> Arabia) and his host nation (Afghanistan). In such a case
> it is natural that a country harbouring him should give him
> up, and that it should be considered as having committed an
> act of war if it refuses to do so.

The Taliban asked for proof of his guilt, and offered to hand him over at
first, if this proof was given. None was. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, not
assumed or suspected or even "almost positive" based on circumstantial
evidence.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:35:21 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,
If Novar Roma is to call itself a nation in any
sense of the word (macro- or not) it must be willing
to accept the opinions of all and not say this should
not be here because it is not what Nova Roma is. Well
Nova Roma is not Islamic, terroist, nor anything else
in relation to the current situation. However, the
same can be applied to the USA, Afghanistan, etc. The
US is not Islamic, Christian, or any specific religion
yet it is an issue and it is open to the opinions of
ALL its citizens whether popularly accepted or not.
Afghanistan is Islamic not Christian or terrorist but
it is still open to those who properly follow the
Islamic faith and the extremists (Al Qaeda and the
Taliban). However I'm not saying the Afghans can
freely express themselves due to the tyrannical nature
of the current people in power (official or not).
Opinions should be allowed to freely flow. If they or
not it is a dictatorship and totalitarian in nature by
making people subject themselves to behavior in which
they normally would not engage in.
Quintus Cornelius caesar

__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Civilians in Democracy
From:	"Uriel Storm" <uriel@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:20:33 -0700

Ah... so, what country do you live in, again?

Decia Cornelia

> Also, I see nothing wrong with sneak attacks... Why give your enemy an
> advantage they wouldnt have had without your stupidity?
>
> But I would like to also say that I am very much for the removal of the
> Taliban; yet just the same, I'm very much for the removal of the United
State.


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:33:19 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@--------> wrote:
> My take on this is just that this guylikes to make us mad every
> once in a while when things slow down a bit. I still remember
> back when he said the press was showing Pakistanians
> cheering at US retaking Kuait instead of at the destruction of the
> WTC. I agree with our Consul and the several others that are
> calling for this man's dismissal. Someone that enjoys wreaking
> havok does not deserve the privilige to be called a citizen of New
> Rome.
>
> Marcus Cornelius Tiberius
>

Salve, Tiberius, and salvete omnes!

I agree with you ALMOST 100%. I do think Michel is a gadfly who
enjoys sowing discontent and provoking people through insult. I
don't, however, wish to see him dismissed. I like to think of Nova
Roma as being superior to even Ancient Rome in terms of both freedom
of speech and tolerance of unpopular viewpoints. I don't think Michel
brings credit to the micronation, but I think dismissing him would
bring some discredit onto Nova Roma for intolerance. Instead, I would
call on all citizens who find his posts provocative and inflammatory
(as I do) to ignore them entirely. As our good censor Sulla
commented, don't feed the troll. If he enjoys provoking people, let's
deny him that pleasure by refusing to be provoked.

I realize quite well that this is easier said than done (and that
does apply to me, too), but I think it's the best approach. Social
censure can come from sources other than legislation, and sometimes
should - I think this is one of those situations that calls for
voluntary action by the citizenry.

Comments welcomed!

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:40:18 -0700

Ave,

Thanks Consul!

I agree to your suggestiosn about being able to rework the item being
submitted. I also think that in cases like this an introduction to the
post might be necessary and would fulfill the need to make sure the
reader understands the context of the post. Any additional comments?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Marcus Cassius Julianus wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> What a great idea, Sulla! There *ought* to be a "hall of fame" up on
> the website for pieces of outstanding oratory.
>
> There would have to be criteria I suppose. A piece would need to be
> nominated in some way, say *not* by the author's two best friends or
> Gens members. There might need to be set categories as well. (If
> someone posted an outstandingly well done piece on why other Citizens
> in NR suck, for instance, it would not enhance our community to put
> that up on the site.)
>
> Additionally, the author should get a chance to "re-work" a post if
> necessary. Formosanus' post, for instance, was a specific reply to
> another thread, and would need a bit of editing to make it stand
> up "out of context".
>
> Perhps this might even affect the general content of the list. If
> good, thoughtful posts were rewarded, it might finally put an end to
> some of the "I didn't call you a Nazi, I just said you act exactly
> like a Nazi at all times and in all ways." types of posts. People
> might think more, and take more time when they speak.
>
> Anyone else think this is a good idea?
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Consul
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > I must add my two cents, in that I too agree with M. Apollonius's
> post!
> >
> > Consul maybe we can make a part on the Camneum for rhetoric or
> places where we can view pieces of oratory! :)
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:35 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
> >
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Quirites, I am going to mark this day on my calendar. It is the
> first
> > time I can ever recall agreeing completely with a post made by
> > Formosanus!
> >
> > If I had my way I'd put this particular speech up on the Nova
> Roma
> > website, entitled "A Nova Roman View of the Current Crisis." I
> find
> > it the most refreshing piece of oratory I've seen in quite some
> time.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > Consul
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [Image]
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:52:22 -0000

> First the Taliban regime is NOT the legitimate
> government of Afghanistan. The United Nations and the
> vast majority of it's members still recognize the
> government that the Taliban drove into exile. The
> legitimate government of Afghanistan approves of the
> aiestrikes by the United States and the United Kingdom
> against Al Qaeda and it's Taliban faction. Since these
> raids are being staged with the support of the
> legitimate government of Afghanistan.

An EXCELLENT point, Drusus!

>
> The Government of Afghanistan is supporting thes raids
> against the Terrorist gangs controling most of
> Afghanistan because of the brutal nature of these
> gangs. They have murdered tens of thousands of
> Afghanis, They stage political assassinations like the
> one against the leader of the Northern Alliance that
> preceded the attacks on the United States. They are
> waging cultural warfare against minorities in a
> culturaly diverse nation. They use the soccer stadiums
> to stage public executions to keep the people cowed.
> Then have deprived Women of ALL civil rights. It is
> illegal to educate women on pain of death. Thousands
> of women have died because of a ban on medical care
> for women. Food Argriculture was cut back to increase
> Poppy production for the Herion Black market, with the
> funds going to sponser Government Terrorism creating a
> food shortage before recent draughts made it worse.
> Women can be publicly beaten by the police without
> trail for the least offense. They are attempting to
> force All Afghanis into their Wahabist inspired cult,
> and are presuing Shia' Muslams with a vengance. Great
> works of art from antiquity have been destroyed as
> "idols"
>
> These depraved creatures are who CLAIM to look after
> the intrests of the people of Afghanistan are
> attempting the inhumane act of robbing the Afghanis of
> the aid they need to overthrow the despotic rule of
> the Talibandits, not because they fear for their
> safety, but because they can't stand the thought that
> the nation they hate will receive the credit for
> saving them. They are willing to leave the Afghanis in
> the Hell the Taliban have created, just to spite the
> United States.
>
> So much for this pitiful attempt to "condemn" the
> forces that are comming to the rescue of the Afghani
> people.
>
> That being said, I do offer my heartfelt condolances
> to the people of Afghanistan. To those who have
> already lost loved ones in the effort to liberate
> Afghanistan and to those who are fated to lose members
> of their families. I also offer condolances to the
> Afghani families of the victims of the Taliban Terror,
> and promise them "You will be avenged".
>
> There is one last point that needs to be made. The
> citizens of Afghanistan are NOT responsible for the
> barbaric regime that rules most of their nation. It
> has victimized them far worse than it's Terrorist
> agents victimized the United States, and they do not
> have the wealth that the United States does to help
> them through their trials.

A very thoughtful, well-balanced, and objective post, good Drusus.
Much more rational and intelligent than Michel's foolishness. It is
of paramount importance for us all to remember we are NOT at war with
Afghanistan, or the Afghan government, but with usurpers who have
deposed the legitimate Afghan government and who cruelly oppress its
peoples, and who undoubtedly sponsor terrorism and have done so for
years, now.

The cruel reality is that collateral damage cannot be entirely
avoided, much as we might wish otherwise. Modern technology has
improved weapons targeting systems so that we can reduce it, but not
eliminate it. This is a regrettable, but unavoidable reality. It
speaks well of you, and many of our citizens, that you have such
compassion for those innocents who will be caught in the crossfire -
as we all should.

Wale,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:53:21 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Uriel Storm" <uriel@s...> wrote:
> Ah... so, what country do you live in, again?
>
> Decia Cornelia
>
>
> > Also, I see nothing wrong with sneak attacks... Why give your
enemy an
> > advantage they wouldnt have had without your stupidity?
> >
> > But I would like to also say that I am very much for the removal
of the
> > Taliban; yet just the same, I'm very much for the removal of the
United
> State.

Salve Decia,

"Extil" is too much of a coward to even give a recognizable name, so
I doubt you will get his or her country. I hope this person is not a
citizen, since he or she appears to approve of the taking of innocent
lives.

Extil, let's give you the "they voted for the government so they are
legitiment targets" argument. Many foreigners, children and others
were killed in these attacks. People who don't vote. I assume you
still approve?

Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:06:07 -0000

Salvete

> > First the Taliban regime is NOT the legitimate
> > government of Afghanistan. The United Nations and the
> > vast majority of it's members still recognize the
> > government that the Taliban drove into exile. The
> > legitimate government of Afghanistan approves of the
> > aiestrikes by the United States and the United Kingdom
> > against Al Qaeda and it's Taliban faction. Since these
> > raids are being staged with the support of the
> > legitimate government of Afghanistan.
Firstly I'd like to state that I don't like the Taliban and I firmly
condemn the way they treat the people of Afghanistan, mainly the
women.
Nevertheless I'd like to point that the Afghan government in exile is
no better. The Taliban drove the government into exile after a period
of savage pillaging and killing. Massud was somewhat more moderate
and a person with which the west could talk... The current leadership
may not be who we are looking for...

Valete
Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:10:35 -0400

Taliban regime in Afghanistan deserves what they are getting. I hope every
single person who is a member of the Taliban is ***wiped off*** the face of
this planet. Thats what they disserve.

War is unfortunate, and this is a war. We must remember this. No war is ever
good. Innocent Afghans will die. This is the way of war, people die
including in some cases innocent people. Although compared to the number the
Tailban killed it is small in comparison.

The government of Afghanistan is the modern day barbarians of the world.
They are uncivilised, they are against all the is good and beautiful in
humanity. They need to be taken out. They don't disserve to live. Innocent
people have and will continue to die. Although the lives lost where not
given in vain. The world will be a better place once these barbarians are
gone and the nation of Afghanistan can become a civilised part of the world.

A few days ago I saw images of a group of Afghan woman being lined up in a
half destroyed soccer stadium filled with people. Then a Taliban solder put
a bullet in the head of each woman. Why? Because they where illegally
teaching others to read and write. This is how they treat their own
citizens! Add on to this their support of the terrorist acts against the US!
Common already, how can any person living in a civilised nation not support
the actions against the Taliban?! Even if you are a person who is normally
against the policies of the US, someone must step in and do something. I am
thankful that the US and UK are acting, I am also proud my own nation Canada
is sending support. Your are a fool if you call it anything but good and
noble.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro sum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

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Subject:	[novaroma] Hall of Flame
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:57:03 +0200

Salvete omnes,

The recent praise of my paterfamilias Formosanus raised an eyebrow or two,
but I believe it is sincerely meant, and this spirit of amicitia has a
benevolent effect on the whole society. Very good! Furthermore, I think
Consul Cassius' idea of a hall of fame is a nice idea, definitely worth
attention. As Coryphaeus of the (lately inactive) Sodalitas Musarum, might I
suggest that we could cooperate on this? This idea has a lot of potential.

On a second note, however, I would like to praise Pontifex Graecus for his
declaration of neutrality. This is Nova Roma, after all, not a forum to
discuss macropolitics on. Added to my praise, I intend to follow Graecus in
his self-chosen neutrality, and will from this day on refrain to comment on
macropolitical or -national issues on this list.

Valete bene!
S. Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow citizens/condoleance to the afghans
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT)

--- amg@-------- wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > > First the Taliban regime is NOT the legitimate
> > > government of Afghanistan. The United Nations
> and the
> > > vast majority of it's members still recognize
> the
> > > government that the Taliban drove into exile.
> The
> > > legitimate government of Afghanistan approves of
> the
> > > aiestrikes by the United States and the United
> Kingdom
> > > against Al Qaeda and it's Taliban faction. Since
> these
> > > raids are being staged with the support of the
> > > legitimate government of Afghanistan.
> Firstly I'd like to state that I don't like the
> Taliban and I firmly
> condemn the way they treat the people of
> Afghanistan, mainly the
> women.
> Nevertheless I'd like to point that the Afghan
> government in exile is
> no better. The Taliban drove the government into
> exile after a period
> of savage pillaging and killing. Massud was somewhat
> more moderate
> and a person with which the west could talk... The
> current leadership
> may not be who we are looking for...
>
> Valete
> Graecus
>

The Former King of Afghanistan has offered to return
for the purpose of summoning a council of all the
tribal leaders of the Nation to put togather a post
war government.

Some of the factions, both within the Taliban and the
Northern Alliance may not fully support a new
government, so a peacekeeping force may be need either
from the UN or from Muslam Nations.

I Feel this would be the best soulation for a post war
Afghanistan.

Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Formosanus' post (was: Re: Dissapointment)
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:56:50 -0400

Salve Antonius Gryllus Graecus,

Keep in mind that Nova Roma's goal is to become a real world nation. We
should express our opinions on macronational issues that are of this much
importance. We don't want to be mistaken for being on the wrong side by new
comers to the res publica. Also judging by the posts I have read on this
topic the majority of citizens have strong views on this issue and where we
as a micronation stand. We should express opinions like this one proudly.

This does not have to come in the form of a speech though. For example, I
run the provincial website for Canada Orientalis. At this site I posted a
small image saying how we regret the terrorist acts on the United States.
It�s a nice gesture that expresses my provinces opinion. I see no reason why
Nova Roma as a whole should not do something similar to express our nation's
view.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro sum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

> Antonius Gryllus Graecus wrote:
>
> For the last time I'd like to call you all to reason and remind that
> Nova Roma is not the USA, NATO, the EU or any other macronation in
> particular. I understand that we are passing through difficult times,
> but you should try to avoid affecting Nova Roma with the current
> macronational problems.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Civilians in Democracy
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:42:10 EDT

Salve,

<< All attacks are terrorist. Terrorism is the use of force for the purpose
of
intimidating your enemy into doing what you want. Given this broad
definition, which is the dictionary definition (though paraphrased), there's
no concievable reason to wage war on anyone that would allow that war to be
anything other than terrorist. >>

To that I must disagree. War and terrorism and very different things. War
in itself poses Military Forces against Military Forces in order to defeat
that enemy, forcing it to surrender or to be conquered. Total-warefare
includes Civilian Targets in order to diminish the capability of that
Military Force from being replenished with new soldiers, weapons, and
supplies. Terrorism on the other hand just randomly kills people in order to
frighten a general populace with no goals except for the acts of Terrorism
themselves. Obviously you can rule out the United States actions as being
Terroristic because there are specific goals - kick out the Tali Ban and put
in place a new government, release foreign nationals held by the Tali Ban
including 2 US citizens that have been held since August for giving
humanitarian aid to the Afghans, and capture Al Qaeda Leaders and operatives
including Osama Bin Ladin. You can rule out All-out Total Warfare because if
the US were interested in doing that we simply would have carpet bombed
Afghanistan with a fleet of 1,000 Super fortresses and been able to march in
without opposition the next day. So far we've only purposely struck
completely Military Targets, but it would be daft of a Nation involved in a
war to not eventually strike Weapons Manufacturing Plants and the such in a
lesser form of Total Warfare. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor,
causing the United States to enter World War II, that was not an act of
terrorism even though it was a sneak attack and even though it did make
everyone in the US pretty darned angry. Pearl Harbor was a Naval Base full
of Battleships, and although the US Forces weren't able to put up much of a
fight because it caught them off guard they were able to fight back somewhat
because it was the military forces being attacked. When those planes flew
into the World Trade Center, that was an act of terrorism. The plane was not
a military aircraft belonging to the attackers, it was a hijacked airliner
full of very scarred people. And well the World Trade Center - Was it a
Military Base? No. Was it a training facility for our military forces? No.
Was it a manufacturing plant turning out 45 Caliber bullets and Howitzer
shells? No. It was full of Stock Brokerages that specialized in commodities
such as frozen orange juice!!! The closest thing to the ability to fight
back was probably a security guard on the ground floor who watched the
security cameras and carried a can of mace. The US actions in Afghanistan,
as you may or may not have noticed, have been against military targets such
as Training Camps, Surface to Air missile sights, and Radar installations not
to mention one cave that the Tali-Ban had stockpiled so many munitions in
that after a SINGLE bunker buster was dropped in it, it continued to explode
for 4 hours.

Vale,

Titinius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Osama's Guilt
From:	Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@-------->
Date:	Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:42:04 -0700 (PDT)

Ave,
Osama Bin Laden is guilty as sin for terrorist
assaults on the United states and has been linked to
multiple attacks on us as well as in france and the
assassination of the former egyptian president. As I
said before we don't need proof to try him just put
the guy on tv and he does the provision of evidence
himself. The man is going to die whether processed
through the CJ system or taken out my special
operations. As president Bush previously stated there
are no negotiations we just want him handed over it is
that simple.
Quintus Cornelius caesar

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Desapointment with my fellow
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	16 Oct 2001 18:41:51 -0200

On Mon, 2001-10-15 at 17:18, Shane Evans wrote:
> I have tolerated the rants and ravings of this bafoon
> enough now. This was the perverbial straw that broke
> my camel's back. I currently hold two military
> commissions, one as a Tribune in service to Nova Roma,
> and another most importantly, as a Captain in the
> United States Army. Although I am asigned as part of
> the Homeland Security, my own sister is currently in
> Pakistan with a field hospital. I am assuming you
> have spent no time in the military, nor have you
> really taken any time to actually study any military
> history, or tactical theory.

I am a conscencious objector. And gained that status in a country
with conscription. I had to serve double time (1 extra year) doing
civil service for a monthly wage of $100 (one hundred) at time
when I was allready PhD in chemistry. I paid high money and time for my
ideas and certainly will continue to stand up for those ideas :
I am opposed in _all_ cases to the usage of arms be it by the state or
privately. I am also opposed in _all_ cases to taking lives be it from
innocents or guiltys.

I happen to be also graduate in history (speciality Roman History) and
have a special interrest in military history wich I combine with great
pleasure with my hobby of wargaming (Prefered wargames: ASL and IRII).

In fact it is that interest in military history that conducted me to
consenscious objection, no religious or philosophical reason but
rational ones.

> So I will take a moment
> to give you a quick lesson. In warfare, any form of
> warfare, there is to be expected, regretably, a
> certain ammount of civilian casualties.

Which turns any warfare, made by any country into "state terrorism" :
innocent lifes taken in order to achieve a political goal, since "War is
only the continuation of politics by other means".

> This is one
> of the evils of warfare. Most civilized nations, such
> as the US and Brittain, have developed tactics and
> weaponry that greatly reduce the chances of this form
> of collateral damage. If you have been monitoring the
> news, the US did accidentally hit a civilian target,
> and immediatly issued an appology.

The apologies I saw where for hitting an ONU target, not civilian
afghans, but I could have missed that one.

> Unlike the Taliban
> government who has regularly done this to their own
> people without so much as a legitimate reason why.

The fact that the Taleban is evil (which I totally agree he is
to all the reasons already named here I would add the criminal
destruction of a large number of greco-bactrian art, and of course the 2
giant buddhas)

Manius Villius Limitanus

> I
> support both our Honorable Consul, and my Provincial
> Propraetor of Lacus Magni. Furthermore, I think with
> the history of this individual to post things that are
> clearly only meant to cause harm and heartache, that
> the Senate, Censors, or whoever has this power, should
> levy a measure of sensure against this individual, if
> not even banishment!
>
> M. Scipio Africanus
> Legate of Lacus Magni Orientalis
> Tribunus Angusticlavii of the Militarium
>
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