Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] war is there accept it
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:04:59 -0400

<<Secondly I
hope you are aware that the facts/figures you receive
as an agent of the social services are not accurate.
Well they are and aren't. >>>

Actually, I handle a caseload of over 350 families, many of whom I know (having been their caseworker for 5 or more years). Many of these women, who do NOT report their own abuse officially, do talk to me about it. I can't do anything officially unless they do. But I know about it. So I am not dealing with statistics. I am dealing with real women.

Valete,
Helena Galeria

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT)

--- exitil@-------- wrote:
> In a message dated 10/16/01 10:52:39 PM Central
> Daylight Time,
> shinjikun@-------- writes:
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Ok, let me get this straight..... you say you
> live in the United States,
> and
> > are "very much for the removal of the United
> State. <sic>"? Would you mind
> > clarifying that statement a bit for me? While I
> realize everyone is
> entitled
> > to thier opinion, if you are "very much for the
> removal of the United
> > State", why exactly do you choose to live here?
> Or do you mean the removal
> > of the United States from Afghanistan and/or the
> middle east in general?
>
> I live here, and that means I want all parasites
> near where I live to either
> become otherwise, or be exterminated/relocated. As
> for why I choose to live
> here, it is because it is the best place I can
> find... but that in no way
> means I must allow it to remain as it is.

I can only take this as a threat by this little
hatemonger against his neighbors, so I'm reposting
this

"Avete
It is Alex Temal AKA Alexander Novius
Lives in Cloquet, MN, USA
He is a Male, and Single at present.
His hobbies are Writing, programming, politics
He is a Philosopher, revolutionary, writer, and much
more.

--Fabius"

So that they can be prepared to defend themselves if
the toad tries to implement his extermanations.

Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Can't we all just get along?
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:35:20 -0000

Friends, countrymen, New Romans, lend me your ears. This may not be
the case, but it almost seems as though this discussion about the
actions taking place are separating us. Is not Nova Roma about
reinstilling the virtues of Rome? We cannot change anything going on
in Afganistan or anywhere else. It is pointless to bicker over
something that cannot be changed, continued discussion will only make
everyone angry. I'm not saying you shouldn't express your feelings,
but just be sensible in how you do it. Some of this discussion is
sensible, but other parts are insulting. I know you all have good
hearts. Take a step back; is this discussion helping or acomplishing
anything? I appologise in advance if anyone takes offence to this
post.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Can't we all just get along?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:39:04 -0700

Ave,

Excellent words! I agree completely.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: CJ Sitter
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 5:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Can't we all just get along?

Friends, countrymen, New Romans, lend me your ears. This may not be
the case, but it almost seems as though this discussion about the
actions taking place are separating us. Is not Nova Roma about
reinstilling the virtues of Rome? We cannot change anything going on
in Afganistan or anywhere else. It is pointless to bicker over
something that cannot be changed, continued discussion will only make
everyone angry. I'm not saying you shouldn't express your feelings,
but just be sensible in how you do it. Some of this discussion is
sensible, but other parts are insulting. I know you all have good
hearts. Take a step back; is this discussion helping or acomplishing
anything? I appologise in advance if anyone takes offence to this
post.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Western Attack is War not Terrorism
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	17 Oct 2001 21:43:47 -0200

On Wed, 2001-10-17 at 20:40, Amulius Claudius Petrus wrote:
>
> Salvete cives et amici,
>
> Citizens who believe the attack on Afghanistan is a terrorist attack are
> mistaken. Take a look at the legal definition of terrorism.
>
> Terrorism: An act of terrorism is any specified action, the use of threat of
> which is designed to influence any government or to intimidate the public in
> order to advanced a political religious or ideological purpose. The
> specified actions are actions which:
>
> -involve serious violence against a person
> -cause serious damage to property
> -endangers a person's life
> -create a serious risk of the health or safety of the public or are designed
> to interfere with or seriously disrupt an electronic system
>
> Now at first glance you can twist this definition for it fits the United
> States and other western countries taking part in the attack on terrorism.
> Although unlike Bin Laden's attack ours has been an officially declared war.
> Here is a legal definition of war:
>
> War: A contention by force; or the art of paralysing the forces of an enemy.
> It is either public or private. Public war is either civil or national.
> Civil war is that which is waged between two parties, citizens or members of
> the same state or nation. National war is a contest between two or more
> independent nations) carried on by authority of their respective
> governments. War is not only an act, but a state or condition, for nations
> are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in
> the very act of contention, but also when, they have any matter of
> controversy or dispute subsisting between them which they are determined to
> decide by the use of force, and have declared publicly, or by their acts,
> their determination so to decide it. National wars are said to be offensive
> or defensive. War is offensive on the part of that government which commits
> the first act of violence; it is defensive on the part of that government
> which receives such act. If a nation sees itself menaced with an attack, its
> first act of violence is to prevent such attack, will be considered as
> defensive.
>
> War was *declared* publicly on terrorism. The terrorists know that they are
> and will continue to be under attack. US citizens had no idea that they
> would be targeted that day in September.

Al Qaeda and Osamam bin Laden declared war ("holy" in their views) to
the United States a long time ago, since they are no nations it would
enter the Private war definition. The fact the USA did not take it
seriously has nothing to do with it.

> Also the war on terrorism was
> provoked by terrorists, it is a defensive attack meant to protect western
> nations. Terrorism is not done in defence. Terrorism is meant to influence a
> group of people by terror and destruction. Thus, the WTC was *TERRORISM*,
> the attacks in Afghanistan is a *WAR* against terrorism. Both are violent
> and never good. Although one targets innocent people, the other targets
> people who kill innocent people.

Both acts fit under both definitions: you can call both wars (one
private the other national) or both terrorist acts (one state terrorism,
the other simply terrorism) in all cases the words are well used.

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:19:29 EDT

In a message dated 10/17/01 7:13:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:

> --- exitil@-------- wrote:
> > In a message dated 10/16/01 10:52:39 PM Central
> > Daylight Time,
> > shinjikun@-------- writes:
> >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > Ok, let me get this straight..... you say you
> > live in the United States,
> > and
> > > are "very much for the removal of the United
> > State. <sic>"? Would you mind
> > > clarifying that statement a bit for me? While I
> > realize everyone is
> > entitled
> > > to thier opinion, if you are "very much for the
> > removal of the United
> > > State", why exactly do you choose to live here?
> > Or do you mean the removal
> > > of the United States from Afghanistan and/or the
> > middle east in general?
> >
> > I live here, and that means I want all parasites
> > near where I live to either
> > become otherwise, or be exterminated/relocated. As
> > for why I choose to live
> > here, it is because it is the best place I can
> > find... but that in no way
> > means I must allow it to remain as it is.
>
> I can only take this as a threat by this little
> hatemonger against his neighbors, so I'm reposting
> this

If you identify yourself with the parasites - the thieves and the murderers,
then yes, it would be correct to take this as a threat. To the nonparasites,
however, this is a promise to work for justice, which is to our mutual
benefit.

- Alexander Novius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:12:40 EDT

In a message dated 10/17/01 1:27:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
radams36@-------- writes:

> Firstly, innocence and guilt are relative terms - nobody falls fully
> into either category. To contend otherwise is disingenous at best.

While you may not fall into either category as an overall assessment of your
entire life's actions, you most certainly fall into one category and only one
category for specific actions such as voting and so on. Either you're
innocent, or you're not. Depending on what you're not innocent of, different
responses are appropriate.

> Secondly, the concept that a person's 'innocence' or 'guilt' are a
> function of their national citizenship is so imbecilic as to defy
> intelligent debate. I'm really curious about where you get the hubris
> to believe you have the right to make that determination.

Innocence and guilt are a function of their directing others to take unjust
action. As for the right to make that determination, no right is required.
No one else need have an obligation to allow me to make that determination,
nor do I demand anything from others to assist me in making that
determination. To make a determination, all I need is my own mind, and the
tools of logic.

> Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

-Alexander Novius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:00:52 -0700 (PDT)

--- exitil@-------- wrote:
>
> If you identify yourself with the parasites - the
> thieves and the murderers,
> then yes, it would be correct to take this as a
> threat. To the nonparasites,
> however, this is a promise to work for justice,
> which is to our mutual
> benefit.
>
> - Alexander Novius

Justice?
The term is beyond your compresension.

Don't even try to threaten me punk,
This is your only warning,

I Am an armed man and I will defend myself.

Drusus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Can't we all just get along?
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:21:15 -0400

Marcus Cornelius, I fully agree! Hopefully if possible we can all soon get
back to issues more closely concerning the res publica of Nova Roma.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro sum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

>Marcus Cornelius Tiberius at otto_von_sitter@-------- wrote:
>
> Friends, countrymen, New Romans, lend me your ears. This may not be
> the case, but it almost seems as though this discussion about the
> actions taking place are separating us. Is not Nova Roma about
> reinstilling the virtues of Rome? We cannot change anything going on
> in Afganistan or anywhere else. It is pointless to bicker over
> something that cannot be changed, continued discussion will only make
> everyone angry. I'm not saying you shouldn't express your feelings,
> but just be sensible in how you do it. Some of this discussion is
> sensible, but other parts are insulting. I know you all have good
> hearts. Take a step back; is this discussion helping or acomplishing
> anything? I appologise in advance if anyone takes offence to this
> post.

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Subject:	[novaroma] ADMIN: List Emotions
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:33:35 -0400

Salve,

I will keep this real short. The general tone on the List the last day or
so has been pretty awful in some areas. I just want to remind *all* List
members that name-calling and insults have no place here. If you find your
emotions getting the better of you, take a break. Step away from the
computer for a while and catch your cool again. Trust me, you and our
community will be better off all around.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:55:21 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, exitil@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/17/01 1:27:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
> radams36@-------- writes:
>
> > Firstly, innocence and guilt are relative terms - nobody falls
fully
> > into either category. To contend otherwise is disingenous at
best.
>
> While you may not fall into either category as an overall
assessment of your
> entire life's actions, you most certainly fall into one category
and only one
> category for specific actions such as voting and so on. Either
you're
> innocent, or you're not. Depending on what you're not innocent of,
different
> responses are appropriate.

I don't follow whatever point you're trying to make, unless it's to
underline the fact that people in the two towers were 'innocent' of
any calculated or premeditated wrongdoing towards the vile and
villainous murderers who took their lives and deprived their families
of fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, and children.

>
> > Secondly, the concept that a person's 'innocence' or 'guilt' are
a
> > function of their national citizenship is so imbecilic as to
defy
> > intelligent debate. I'm really curious about where you get the
hubris
> > to believe you have the right to make that determination.
>
> Innocence and guilt are a function of their directing others to
take unjust
> action.

What unjust action did these people direct someone (who?) to take,
and against whom? This is just meaningless babble.

As for the right to make that determination, no right is required.
> No one else need have an obligation to allow me to make that
determination,
> nor do I demand anything from others to assist me in making that
> determination.

And by this statement you verify your own hubris. I strive for
civility as a member of this list, but your astounding arrogance is
trying my ability to maintain it.

To make a determination, all I need is my own mind, and the
> tools of logic.

I suggest you check your toolbox, there seem to be some things
missing. Your earlier statement, ignoring any offense it may
engender, is not logical or sensible as it stands. Your condemnation
of a large group of people who may or may not have had very much in
common, and who undoubtedly worked under various different value
systems, and who were not even all American citizens by any means, is
extremely disrespectful and prejudiced.

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Civilians in Democracy
From:	radams36@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:59:11 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, exitil@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/17/01 7:13:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
> > --- exitil@-------- wrote:
> > > In a message dated 10/16/01 10:52:39 PM Central
> > > Daylight Time,
> > > --------jikun@-------- write--------font>
> > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > Ok, let me get this straight..... you say you
> > > live in the United States,
> > > and
> > > > are "very much for the removal of the United
> > > State. <sic>"? Would you mind
> > > > clarifying that statement a bit for me? While I
> > > realize everyone is
> > > entitled
> > > > to thier opinion, if you are "very much for the
> > > removal of the United
> > > > State", why exactly do you choose to live here?
> > > Or do you mean the removal
> > > > of the United States from Afghanistan and/or the
> > > middle east in general?
> > >
> > > I live here, and that means I want all parasites
> > > near where I live to either
> > > become otherwise, or be exterminated/relocated. As
> > > for why I choose to live
> > > here, it is because it is the best place I can
> > > find... but that in no way
> > > means I must allow it to remain as it is.
> >
> > I can only take this as a threat by this little
> > hatemonger against his neighbors, so I'm reposting
> > this
>
> If you identify yourself with the parasites - the thieves and the
murderers,
> then yes, it would be correct to take this as a threat. To the
nonparasites,
> however, this is a promise to work for justice, which is to our
mutual
> benefit.
>
> - Alexander Novius

Wrong, and once more you show your extreme logic impairment. If the
speaker identifies him/herself in the group that YOU consider to be
parasites, it is a threat. The speaker can only guess what you're
thinking of them, and whether or not YOU consider them in that group -
and your criteria are enigmatic at best.

And I'm going to take good censor Sulla's earlier advice regarding
Michel, echoing my own, and not feed this illogical, insulting troll
anymore - I recommend that any fellow citizens who feel the same
adopt the same stance.

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Topic vs. the World
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:11:15 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

I haven't had time to check the list much in the past couple of days. As I
read it now I see that the last 30 messages or so in a row are a rather
confused garble of personal views on current world events.

None of us is going to achieve much by tying to convince others here that our
personal view of Afghanistan, etc. is the correct view. It does not affect
the world, and it cannot help Nova Roma.

In fact, the less we focus on Roman subjects, the more we disempower
ourselves and our community.

We have a unique place in the world. We are a group of people consciously
attempting to revive the noble and honorable aspects of a Great Civilization.
We have taken on the task of being not just historians - but the living
manifestation of philosophy, religion, law, and culture that the world has
been the poorer for losing almost entirely.

Yes, each of us has a macronational life. Yes, as citizens of various
macronations we all have different views. But what do these views matter to
something as eternal as Romanitas?

I won't ask anyone to stop posting about Afghanistan. However, I would like
to challenge all Citizens:

If you have the time and energy to post about Afghanistan, or argue with
another's views on Afghanistan... do you have as much Roman interest to make
a post about Roman subjects as well? Can you put as much effort into things
Roman (a subject in which you have a lot of influence) as you do with the
politics over nations over which you have no influence whatever?

Right now it seems that the war between the US and Afghanistan OWNS 95% of
the Nova Roman main forum. Romanitas owns the other 5%. I believe that if
the ratios were at least even we could continue to get Roman business done
and still leave everyone with the ability to express themselves about other
topics.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Codes
From:	"Appius Tullius Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:33:50 -0400

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

Could those citizens who have been notified by my colleague, Domna Claudia Auspicata, that they have invalid Voter Codes, please check that you are not confusing letters and numbers. This has happened many times past election and voting sessions.
1. Your Voter Code consists of three Letters, followed by three Numbers.
2. Be careful that you do not confuse the Capital Letter Oh (O) with the Number Zero (0).
3. Be careful also that you do not confuse the Capital Letter eye (I) with the Number one (1).

I realize that this may all sound ridiculously simple to those who have voted many times in the past, but it happens often enough that it needs repeating. And it may be that a few newer citizens can use the information. We wish all citizens to have the opportunity to make their vote count.
Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] national anthem
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:35:52 +0200

Ave!

Is there anybody on this list who is good in writing music and who feels like composing a nathional hymn, about the glory of Rome and its gods?

Good idea or not?

Vale!
C. Puteus Germanicus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Code (IV)
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:08:42 +1300

Salvete Quirites

Invalid Voter Codes (IV)
Voter # 9129

Please try to vote again (if you have a real Voter Code), contact the Censors if your code is not working.

Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Topic vs. the World
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:29:04 -0000

Salvete Cassi et omnes

Finally, the voice of Reason can be heard. It's still far away, but I
can hear it now.
I think that these discussions show how weak our micronation is.
Instead of being united by our Romanitas, it seems that citizens are
united by their macronationalitas and are ready to contend each other
fiercely because of macronational issues. When this happens I see no
Romans. I am able to identify precisely who is from the USA, Brazil,
EU, etc. Political enemies in Rome hug each other because they are
allies and countrimen in their macronation. On the other hand,
political allies in Rome become enemies because their macronational
views are different. If the citizens who really wish to concentrate
on things Roman are few, much fewer are the citizens who bear a deep
intrinsic feeling of Romanitas. I still want to believe that I am
wrong, but I must see it in practice.

...And I almost forgot... My recommendation is: if you put a
political speech written by someone on the website, care to present
it as the view of the writer and not as the view of NR as a whole.
And to be really fair, you would have to include the answers of the
adversaries. And the evaluation would have to be impartial which I
doubt would be the case regarding Formosanus' speech (this is not an
attack on Formosanus, who in fact did not request the honour; it's
rather a remark for those who out of their hot macronational emotions
proposed to put his speech on the page as a kind of official
manifest).

Di lucem tribuant vobis
Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

--- In novaroma@--------, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I haven't had time to check the list much in the past couple of
days. As I
> read it now I see that the last 30 messages or so in a row are a
rather
> confused garble of personal views on current world events.
>
> None of us is going to achieve much by tying to convince others
here that our
> personal view of Afghanistan, etc. is the correct view. It does not
affect
> the world, and it cannot help Nova Roma.
>
> In fact, the less we focus on Roman subjects, the more we
disempower
> ourselves and our community.
>
> We have a unique place in the world. We are a group of people
consciously
> attempting to revive the noble and honorable aspects of a Great
Civilization.
> We have taken on the task of being not just historians - but the
living
> manifestation of philosophy, religion, law, and culture that the
world has
> been the poorer for losing almost entirely.
>
> Yes, each of us has a macronational life. Yes, as citizens of
various
> macronations we all have different views. But what do these views
matter to
> something as eternal as Romanitas?
>
> I won't ask anyone to stop posting about Afghanistan. However, I
would like
> to challenge all Citizens:
>
> If you have the time and energy to post about Afghanistan, or argue
with
> another's views on Afghanistan... do you have as much Roman
interest to make
> a post about Roman subjects as well? Can you put as much effort
into things
> Roman (a subject in which you have a lot of influence) as you do
with the
> politics over nations over which you have no influence whatever?
>
> Right now it seems that the war between the US and Afghanistan OWNS
95% of
> the Nova Roman main forum. Romanitas owns the other 5%. I believe
that if
> the ratios were at least even we could continue to get Roman
business done
> and still leave everyone with the ability to express themselves
about other
> topics.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Osama's Guilt
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <rapax@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:43:03 +0300

Salve noble Antonius Gryllus Graecus...
Since the beginning of this topic of war I've tried to remain
silent ...never tried to
criticize any nation,govt. or ethnic group.Because the reason I'm here
as a part of NR
is my dedication to Rome..and also I believe since I'm not actually
'living' in those
countries I better keep my mouth shut in order to not to hurt anyone's
feelings with
my ignorance and my disrespect.

But this is the second time I see you attack on my country with
'Sad remarks'
I'm a Turk...!And Turkiye is a developing country..we are not perfect but
we are trying!And...we are the * last * stronghold of 'True Islam' in
the world!

Your suggestion of Turkiye should be bombed because they kill Kurds
is very
much the same thing saying USA should be bombed because they kill Afghans!
And this is not called 'killing'...this is called 'Self-defense'....

Did you know that we lost over 35.000 people in less than 10 years
because of
Terrorism...I guess you don't!And more than 15.000 were
civilians...women,children
and new born babies living in our south eastern regions!Terror was a
part of our
daily lives...we know how it hurts when you lose a wife,a child or a
relative in Terror!
That is why we are going to fight in this war together with USA,UK and
with NATO!
Even against the people of our own religion!We don't expect to get
pretty rewards
from the west...but now you,too,know what an infernal thing Terrorism
is...maybe
you can open your eyes and leave your *prejudices* behind!
As long as I see any other 'sad remarks' about 'my macronational
country'..I'll
continue to keep my mouth shut about this subject of war!

Some said that the 'face of the devil' was in the smokes rising
from the Twin
Towers...you saw that face for the first time maybe...but it was very
familiar to us!

Valete
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Salve Quinte Corneli Caesar
>
> > > > Osama Bin Laden is guilty as sin for terrorist
> > > > assaults on the United states and has been linked to
> > > > multiple attacks on us as well as in france and the
> > > > assassination of the former egyptian president. As I
> > > > said before we don't need proof to try him just put
> > > > the guy on tv and he does the provision of evidence
> > > > himself. The man is going to die whether processed
> > > > through the CJ system or taken out my special
> > > > operations. As president Bush previously stated there
> > > > are no negotiations we just want him handed over it is
> > > > that simple.
> > > > Quintus Cornelius caesar
>Let me play the role of Socrates in here =).
>Isn't it true that even if a man confesses a crime, it must be proved
>that he is really guilty? This is the way I understand the US legal
>system, at least from what I see in the TV series. =)
>Imagine that the man was mad and someone else had committed the
>crime. Better: Imagine that some other groups had committed the crime
>and that Osama Bin Laden, mad with envy had declared himself
>responsible for the act.
>Consider also the fact that terrorist attacks often generate multiple
>claims of responsibility on the part of rival terrorist groups.
>
>So, while I believe that Bin Laden is responsible for the training
>and financing of the terrorists (I'm not so sure that he knew the
>details of the operation as there is the possibility that after
>training the terrorist cells act on their own in order to avoid
>detection), the western powers cannot justify the execution of the
>man in legal terms. The western powers must admit that this action
>was waged to protect their strategical interests and population
>independently of international law.
>
>Is it so difficult to admit? It shouldn't be. Since the beginning of
>civilization, international law is fake. The states manipulate it
>according to their interests since the beginning. And this practice
>continues in the 21st century. The moslem terrorists kill civilians
>claiming that their own civilians are killed by the allies of the US,
>namely Israel. On the other hand, the UN rather than an institution
>serving the great powers of the world? Just see who has the right of
>veto in the Security Council and you will discover that smaller
>countries must accept the decisions of the big, period. But it was
>like this already when there was no UN, so you should not be shocked.
>We are just watching the continuation of History.
>
>So, just be rational and calmly watch the theatre of Humanity as it
>is. Don't paint it with false symbols of fake universal value and
>virtue. The way an event is interpreted depends on the side you are
>fighting for. It's just a question of interest, not of Democracy, not
>of human rights. These only have value when they also have
>strategical value. Otherwise no one bothers. The western powers were
>always very bothered with, for example:
>
>- Cuba (whose leader, despite being a tyrant, is nevertheless a
>competent tyrant in the true ancient greek sense of the word:
>improving education, health services, etc.)
>- Iraq
>- Serbia
>- Afghanistan
>- China
>- North Korea
>- Russia (before it became a virtual democracy subject to the free
>market, even if Tchetchnians are killed and denied the right for
>autodetermination)
>- Angola (when it was under Cuban and Russian influence)
>
>But Democracy and human rights never interested them in:
>- Saudi Arabia
>- El Salvador
>- Honduras
>- Colombia
>- Turkey
>- Israel
>- Chile (before it became democratic)
>- Argentina (before it became democratic)
>- Angola (since the VERY SAME CORRUPT Angolan government became a
>false democracy and a friend with the west)
>
>Conclusion: go and attack the Taliban. Go and kill Bin Laden. And for
>you who are US soldiers or their family I sincerely wish you and/or
>your military relatives to come back in safety and unharmed. But
>please have the conscience that no one is serving abstract virtues.
>The military are serving the interests of their country (YOUR
>interests and YOUR government's interests) just like the roman
>legionaries served Rome and the Caesars. And I don't say this for you
>to be ashamed. There is nothing to be ashamed, for you have not
>chosen to be born in the country you were born, you have not chosen
>your Horoscope, you have not chosen your fate, which includes living
>in a great western power with economical and strategical interests
>and corresponding rivals and even enemies in all the world. I say
>this because it is the truth you must inexorably accept. Just like
>the Afghans and others are inevitably subject to their fate, which
>includes a severe islamic education, poverty, civil war, etc..
>Just try not to accept this war with passion, justifying the
>irrational with a simulacrum of rationality, taking the attribute for
>the essence, the transitory for the eternal, the mundane for the
>divine. Accept it as inevitable albeit unpleasant, and you will
>indeed be among the fairest people in the world, past and present.
>
>Di vos incolumes custodiant
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Can't we all just get along?
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:09:22 -0700 (PDT)

--- CJ Sitter <otto_von_sitter@--------> wrote:
> Friends, countrymen, New Romans, lend me your ears.
> This may not be
> the case, but it almost seems as though this
> discussion about the
> actions taking place are separating us. Is not Nova
> Roma about
> reinstilling the virtues of Rome? We cannot change
> anything going on
> in Afganistan or anywhere else. It is pointless to
> bicker over
> something that cannot be changed, continued
> discussion will only make
> everyone angry. I'm not saying you shouldn't
> express your feelings,
> but just be sensible in how you do it. Some of this
> discussion is
> sensible, but other parts are insulting. I know you
> all have good
> hearts. Take a step back; is this discussion
> helping or acomplishing
> anything? I appologise in advance if anyone takes
> offence to this
> post.
>
> Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

Avete Omnes,

Well said, Marcus Cornelius Tiberius!

After a long period of almost no posts at all, of a
sudden there are more posts than I can possibly read,
yet they are all about Afghanistan. I don't even
bother reading them anymore because I know it's only
someone's opinion about what we should do or should
have done about a world situation that none of us have
any control over. When are we going to get back to
Roman business? I don't know about others but all I
could possibly want to know or care to know about the
situation in Afghanistan I can find out on the news.
I was hoping to find some solace in Nova Roma from the
constant bombardment of confusing and devastating
information that is continuously thrust upon us by the
media. I was hoping Nova Roma would be a little bit
more of a reprieve into something positive and within
my realm of influence as a participating individual.
Please let's get back to being Romans and focus on
what that means and the wonderful aspects of that.

Roma nunc et semper.

Valete,

Antonia Cornelia Octavia
Scriba ad Proconsul de California

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] national anthem
From:	"Marc Sarault" <marc_sarault@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 05:44:06 +0000

Ave

In latin or english

Marc Sarault
Canada Orientalis

>From: "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] national anthem
>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:35:52 +0200
>
>Ave!
>
>Is there anybody on this list who is good in writing music and who feels
>like composing a nathional hymn, about the glory of Rome and its gods?
>
>Good idea or not?
>
>Vale!
>C. Puteus Germanicus
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

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Subject:	AW: AW: AW: [novaroma] war is there accept it
From:	"solinvictus" <caiustarquitius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:49:29 +0200

Ave,
I fully agree. Of course everybody should be allowed to say what he wants
to, IMO as long, as it is not completely destructive. All I wanted to say
is, that I am a citizen of NR because I am interested in Roman History, and
thus would prefer reading roman topics. Therefore my suggestion of using
another Forum. Anyway, I will survive if it continues, what it obviously
does.
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus.

-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Michael Loughlin [mailto:qccaesar@--------]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2001 21:12
An: novaroma@--------
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [novaroma] war is there accept it

Ave,
I say "now very open" because the more and more I
read people's posts about can't say this/don't say
that/this shouldn't be said it makes NR sound like a
dictatorship and jeez some democratic system
especially since there is voting. If people can't
voice there opinions then again this list is futile.
I can no longer stand the arrogant snobs in this
organization who think they can play god and control
what people say by telling people they should do this
or say this. It makes NR seem so unappealing and not
worth being a part of
quintus cornelius caesar
--- solinvictus <caiustarquitius@--------> wrote:
> Ave.
> I started with "I Think". Not very open, are we?
>
> Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.
>
> Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
>
> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Michael Loughlin [mailto:qccaesar@--------]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2001 15:40
> An: novaroma@--------
> Betreff: Re: AW: [novaroma] war is there accept it
>
>
> Ave,
> And decline NR citizens the right to voice their
> opinions? Not very open are we?
> quintus cornelius caesar
> --- solinvictus <caiustarquitius@--------> wrote:
> > I think it is not necessary to discuss these
> topics
> > in this Forum and spam
> > other people`s computers with loads of mails. This
> > is, IMO not a NOVA ROMA
> > Topic. What about discussing these things in a
> > political Forum? There are
> > enough of them in the Internet.
> >
> > Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.
> >
> > Caius Taquitius Saturninus
> >
> > -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Teleri ferch Nyfain
> > [mailto:rckovak@--------]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2001 06:02
> > An: novaroma@--------
> > Betreff: Re: [novaroma] war is there accept it
> >
> >
> > Salvete
> > I am responding to some remarks by Quintus
> Cornelius
> > Caesar
> >
> > <<We oppressed women almost just as bad as the
> > Taliban. >>
> > 1 - who is we? The United States, even 150 years
> > ago (before Susan B.
> > Anthony and the Saratoga Assembly) never to my
> > knowledge forced women to
> > wear clothing covering their whole body, with only
> a
> > little crocheted hole
> > to see out of. The US never forced women to live
> in
> > houses with the windows
> > painted over. These 2 strictures alone are
> causing
> > women to suffer from
> > sunlight deprivation. The US (nor any other
> country
> > that I know of, in the
> > last 50 years) has condemned women to death for
> > teaching other women to read
> > and write, although before the Civil War, blacks
> in
> > this country suffered
> > this fate. Neither has any other country denied
> > women medical care based
> > only on their sex. The treatment of women
> > (remember, the MAJORITY of the
> > population) by the Taliban is unprecendented,
> > certainly in modern times. No
> > matter that Saudi women might be repressed or the
> > females in the Sudan
> > subject to mutilation, neither of these countries
> > has declared war on their
> > women as have the Taliban. In fact if the Taliban
> > were to continue the way
> > they have, I doubt many women will survive there
> > over the next 25 years.
> >
> > <<It comes down to cultural
> > relativism.>>>
> > 2 - the treatment of Afghan women by the Taliban
> is
> > NOT cultural, at least
> > not the culture these women grew up with.
> > Afghanistan was a relatively
> > progressive country for Muslim women until the
> > Taliban took over. Then over
> > night these women, many with advanced degrees and
> > careers - lawyers,
> > doctors, university professors, business managers,
> > chemists, engineers -
> > found themselves treated little better than
> animals,
> > reduced (if widowed or
> > without male relatives) to begging in the streets
> to
> > feed themselves and
> > worse, their children. They are forced to watch
> > their daughters growing up
> > without an education or chance to live any kind of
> > decent life. The suicide
> > rate among these women has tripled over the last
> two
> > years. This is NOT
> > their culture.
> >
> > I have hated the Taliban ever since I heard about
> > these atrocities committed
> > against the women in Afghanistan, which I first
> > learned in 1996. I now know
> > that on top of all the above, the Taliban have
> > committed mass executions
> > against the Shiite male population in Afghanistan,
> > and other groups. The
> > only reason these people aren't "worse" than
> Hitler?
> > They haven't got the
> > power of Hitler. But they want it. And if they
> > manage, using Bin Laden &
> > these terrorist tactics, to gain control of the
> > Middle East, they will have
> > that power, and the ability to slaughter countless
> > millions. The only light
> > at the end of that scenario would be that after a
> > generation or two the
> > population would dwindle away, since the majority
> of
> > women would not
> > survive.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Helena Galeria
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Osama's Guilt
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 04:48:58 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

The Turkish Republic is not perfect by any means, but
it is far better than most governments in the region.
The Turks were very lucky, they had one of the great
leaders of the 20th century, Kemal Attaturk, as the
founder of their republic, and the world would be a
far better place if more leaders in the middle east
did what Turkey attempts to do, follow the example set
by Attaturk.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
<rapax@--------> wrote:
>
>
> Salve noble Antonius
> Gryllus Graecus...
> Since the beginning of this topic of war
> I've tried to remain
> silent ...never tried to
> criticize any nation,govt. or ethnic
> group.Because the reason I'm here
> as a part of NR
> is my dedication to Rome..and also I believe
> since I'm not actually
> 'living' in those
> countries I better keep my mouth shut in order to
> not to hurt anyone's
> feelings with
> my ignorance and my disrespect.
>
> But this is the second time I see you attack
> on my country with
> 'Sad remarks'
> I'm a Turk...!And Turkiye is a developing
> country..we are not perfect but
> we are trying!And...we are the * last *
> stronghold of 'True Islam' in
> the world!
>
> Your suggestion of Turkiye should be bombed
> because they kill Kurds
> is very
> much the same thing saying USA should be bombed
> because they kill Afghans!
> And this is not called 'killing'...this is
> called 'Self-defense'....
>
> Did you know that we lost over 35.000
> people in less than 10 years
> because of
> Terrorism...I guess you don't!And more than
> 15.000 were
> civilians...women,children
> and new born babies living in our south eastern
> regions!Terror was a
> part of our
> daily lives...we know how it hurts when you lose
> a wife,a child or a
> relative in Terror!
> That is why we are going to fight in this war
> together with USA,UK and
> with NATO!
> Even against the people of our own religion!We
> don't expect to get
> pretty rewards
> from the west...but now you,too,know what an
> infernal thing Terrorism
> is...maybe
> you can open your eyes and leave your
> *prejudices* behind!
> As long as I see any other 'sad remarks'
> about 'my macronational
> country'..I'll
> continue to keep my mouth shut about this
> subject of war!
>
> Some said that the 'face of the devil' was
> in the smokes rising
> from the Twin
> Towers...you saw that face for the first time
> maybe...but it was very
> familiar to us!
>
> Valete
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Salve Quinte Corneli Caesar
> >
> > > > > Osama Bin Laden is guilty as sin for
> terrorist
> > > > > assaults on the United states and has been
> linked to
> > > > > multiple attacks on us as well as in france
> and the
> > > > > assassination of the former egyptian
> president. As I
> > > > > said before we don't need proof to try him
> just put
> > > > > the guy on tv and he does the provision of
> evidence
> > > > > himself. The man is going to die whether
> processed
> > > > > through the CJ system or taken out my
> special
> > > > > operations. As president Bush previously
> stated there
> > > > > are no negotiations we just want him handed
> over it is
> > > > > that simple.
> > > > > Quintus Cornelius caesar
> >Let me play the role of Socrates in here =).
> >Isn't it true that even if a man confesses a crime,
> it must be proved
> >that he is really guilty? This is the way I
> understand the US legal
> >system, at least from what I see in the TV series.
> =)
> >Imagine that the man was mad and someone else had
> committed the
> >crime. Better: Imagine that some other groups had
> committed the crime
> >and that Osama Bin Laden, mad with envy had
> declared himself
> >responsible for the act.
> >Consider also the fact that terrorist attacks often
> generate multiple
> >claims of responsibility on the part of rival
> terrorist groups.
> >
> >So, while I believe that Bin Laden is responsible
> for the training
> >and financing of the terrorists (I'm not so sure
> that he knew the
> >details of the operation as there is the
> possibility that after
> >training the terrorist cells act on their own in
> order to avoid
> >detection), the western powers cannot justify the
> execution of the
> >man in legal terms. The western powers must admit
> that this action
> >was waged to protect their strategical interests
> and population
> >independently of international law.
> >
> >Is it so difficult to admit? It shouldn't be. Since
> the beginning of
> >civilization, international law is fake. The states
> manipulate it
> >according to their interests since the beginning.
> And this practice
> >continues in the 21st century. The moslem
> terrorists kill civilians
> >claiming that their own civilians are killed by the
> allies of the US,
> >namely Israel. On the other hand, the UN rather
> than an institution
> >serving the great powers of the world? Just see who
> has the right of
> >veto in the Security Council and you will discover
> that smaller
> >countries must accept the decisions of the big,
> period. But it was
> >like this already when there was no UN, so you
> should not be shocked.
> >We are just watching the continuation of History.
> >
> >So, just be rational and calmly watch the theatre
> of Humanity as it
> >is. Don't paint it with false symbols of fake
> universal value and
> >virtue. The way an event is interpreted depends on
> the side you are
> >fighting for. It's just a question of interest, not
> of Democracy, not
> >of human rights. These only have value when they
> also have
> >strategical value. Otherwise no one bothers. The
> western powers were
> >always very bothered with, for example:
> >
> >- Cuba (whose leader, despite being a tyrant, is
> nevertheless a
> >competent tyrant in the true ancient greek sense of
> the word:
> >improving education, health services, etc.)
> >- Iraq
> >- Serbia
> >- Afghanistan
> >- China
> >- North Korea
> >- Russia (before it became a virtual democracy
> subject to the free
> >market, even if Tchetchnians are killed and denied
> the right for
> >autodetermination)
> >- Angola (when it was under Cuban and Russian
> influence)
> >
> >But Democracy and human rights never interested
> them in:
> >- Saudi Arabia
> >- El Salvador
> >- Honduras
> >- Colombia
> >- Turkey
> >- Israel
> >- Chile (before it became democratic)
> >- Argentina (before it became democratic)
> >- Angola (since the VERY SAME CORRUPT Angolan
> government became a
>
=== message truncated ===

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Subject:	[novaroma] Romanitas
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:02:03 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, amg@c... wrote:
> Salvete Cassi et omnes
>
> Finally, the voice of Reason can be heard. It's still far away, but
> I
> can hear it now.
> I think that these discussions show how weak our micronation is.
> Instead of being united by our Romanitas, it seems that citizens
> are
> united by their macronationalitas and are ready to contend each
> other
> fiercely because of macronational issues. When this happens I see
> no
> Romans. I am able to identify precisely who is from the USA,
> Brazil,
> EU, etc. Political enemies in Rome hug each other because they are
> allies and countrimen in their macronation. On the other hand,
> political allies in Rome become enemies because their macronational
> views are different. If the citizens who really wish to concentrate
> on things Roman are few, much fewer are the citizens who bear a
> deep
> intrinsic feeling of Romanitas. I still want to believe that I am
> wrong, but I must see it in practice.
>
> ...And I almost forgot... My recommendation is: if you put a
> political speech written by someone on the website, care to present
> it as the view of the writer and not as the view of NR as a whole.
> And to be really fair, you would have to include the answers of the
> adversaries. And the evaluation would have to be impartial which I
> doubt would be the case regarding Formosanus' speech (this is not
> an
> attack on Formosanus, who in fact did not request the honour; it's
> rather a remark for those who out of their hot macronational
> emotions
> proposed to put his speech on the page as a kind of official
> manifest).

Salvete omnes.

Yes, I too would like different discussions and topics apart from
macronational politics. And I see how this recent obsessions weakens
our community.

But I'd like to discuss whether the defects you've accurately found
in our community really reveal a lack of romanitas. Is it not
possible that our present behaviour unawarely mimics that of Rome?

Verily, macronationalitas runs deep in this list. It does not only
dictate with whom people will side, but also in most cases their
novaroman ideology and "imago mundi". As a philosopher (one from my
macronation, by the way) once put it: I am me and my circumstances.

It is no secret that the inmense majority of northamericans holds
roughly the same views on Bin Laden. But this is also (less
unanimously) the case with novaroman politics. Most if not all "self-
disalleged" optimate are also northamericans.

But, you complaint, macronational differences even overcome
micronational ones. I will not deny this, as most recent messages
supply enough proof.

What I will discuss is: Is this (evidently negative) behaviour non-
roman?

Your complaints about lack of romanitas could well have been issued
by some senator, who saw for the fist time his werbose and
moustachioed colleagues from Narbonensis, clad with trousers under
their togae.

Also Rome had its "macronations". These were its provinces and the
peoples who inhabited it. Nova Roma's division in provintiae is based
on more than geographic convenience. A mental division in gentes is
not official but nevertheless also there.

To the provinces, Romanitas did not came in an instant or complete
fashion. It was always tainted by their own idiosyncrasy. This did
not make them less proud of being romans, or less concerned with
their roman nationality. Byzantines were proud of being romans a
millenium after the fall of the western empire, even being only
partially its cultural heirs.

Also we are deeply different from each other, but also we are united
by the same ideals. Of course, finding a common ground on most
matters is indeed difficult.

But just as the roman provinces forged their own, roman, identity
through convivence with each other, also we will change in time
through discussion and consensus. The idea of Romanitas changed in
the process, and perhaps ours will too. Do not see our regional
differences as a hindrance, but as a bonus for Nova Roma!

Nevertheless, most complaints about recent list topics are indeed
more than justified. In medio consistit virtus. To have normal
discussions on worldwide politics is only natural. But this doesn't
justify insulting, "trollish" behaviour, or even the obsession with a
non roman subject. Asocial behaviour and dealing with it is a matter
common to most mailing lists.

To conclude: I (politely, humbly and not demeaning anyone's freedom
of speech) request from novoromans that they henceforth do refer
to "macronations", but to regions or provinces except in the cases
when a particular governing body is meant. Likewise they should not
refer to "macronational differences" between citizens, alien to Nova
Roma, but just to "provintial differences".

This request is not based on "political correctness", but on the
implication that our different views are a natural part of Nova Roma.
As they are there to stay for long, we may as well profit from them.

Vivat Devotio Hispanica

Marcus Salix saverius

P.S.: Several citizens of hispania provincia have taken part in
our "bibliotheca" project. Its goal is to accumulate our own articles
concerning every aspect of ancient rome.
The first rough version of it is already available at the URL:

http://www.geocities.com/nrhispania/bibliotheca_es.html

At the moment all our articles are still only available in spanish.
But an english translation is of course under way. We have articles
on the different languages of the empire, on art, on roman customs...

We will be very pleased if any members decide to contribute to this
exciting and promising project


Subject:	[novaroma] new photo-album
From:	"Quintus Quinctilius Varus Galili" <quinctilius.varus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:33:25 -0000

salvete omnes!

you can see the new photo-album from the colonia raurica (germania
superioris) by adress

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macellum

folder photos

valete bene!

quintus quinctilius varus galili
legatus germaniae superioris


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Osama's Guilt
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:04:36 -0000

Salvete

Firstly I'll answer Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion:

> > Your suggestion of Turkiye should be bombed
> > because they kill Kurds
> > is very
> > much the same thing saying USA should be bombed
> > because they kill Afghans!
> > And this is not called 'killing'...this is
> > called 'Self-defense'....
Funny... Saddham Hussein says the same... Oh, by the way the Kurds
say the same... I had forgotten, the Taliban say the same... And the
Northern Alliance... The Russians also kill the Tchechnians for
survival... As to the Tchechnians in response. And Israel kills the
Palestinian moslems, and the latter kill the Jews. And when my
country had a fascist regime, we also killed the african "terrorists"
in the same way they killed us... For survival!
Everyone kills "terrorists" for survival, isn't it funny? ...And
everybody is a terrorist in the opinion of the enemy.

Can't you see that you cannot speak for a Kurd, Iraqi, Afghan,
Russian or whatever because you were born as a Turk? I wish you were
a Kurd. I'd love to hear your opinion then.
You should know that 'opinion' varies with the personal interests of
the individual.

Now, as to the matter of survival, I think that you should not weep
so much. You must first analyse in which conditions you are striving
to survive. The truth is that you need to fight for survival because
you are firmly defending that the Kurds have no right to
autodetermination in Turkey. It was your government's choice, and I
assume you agree, otherwise you would be speaking differently about
the Kurds. So, amice, please don't weep. Assume your decision as a
man and face the consequences. When you decided not to negotiate
autodetermination with the Kurds you knew that war would come by any
means. And the means of the weak is terrorism. It was something your
government knew (just as the Portuguese fascist government knew that
to deny independence to the colonies would cause the colonist farmers
to be murdered mercilessly).

Now to L. Sicinius Drusus:
> The Turkish Republic is not perfect by any means, but
> it is far better than most governments in the region.
> The Turks were very lucky, they had one of the great
> leaders of the 20th century, Kemal Attaturk, as the
> founder of their republic, and the world would be a
> far better place if more leaders in the middle east
> did what Turkey attempts to do, follow the example set
> by Attaturk.
Mee amice, you are mixing several different subjects at the same time
in the same pot. This discussion has nothing to do with who the nice
guy is. Even if Saddham is a terrible dictator, can't he speak the
truth once for a while? Maybe he can... We are comparing similar
situations and comparing their lawfulness. I have presented several
examples of irregularity in the treatment of similar cases. For
example Turkey kills the Kurds just like the Iraqi authorities and
for the same reason: what they call Terrorism. Shouldn't these two
countries receive the same treatment? What you are saying us is in my
opinion something with no logical meaning from the point of view of
this discussion. You are saying: punish Iraq because Saddham is a bad
guy, but let the Turks do the same because they are nice guys. This
is contrary to the most elementary principles of Philosophy and so I
ask you to get a better argument.

Valete bene
Graecus


Subject:	[novaroma] New Topic.
From:	"solinvictus" <caiustarquitius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:14:10 +0200

Salve, omnes.
As suggested, I try to create a non-war topic.

If there are any people present out of the reenactment scene, to which I
belong myself, I`d like to know from these where, in their opinion, lies the
sense in reenacting. Furthermore I�d be interested in
military-tunic-colour-choice of most groups. Why? and where are the sources?
Of course everybody who is not a reenactor is invited to join the possibly
evolving discussion.
Valete.

Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus


Subject:	[novaroma] Anti terror intervention
From:	"Prometheus" <marcusprometheus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:47:48 +0200

Marcus Prometheus:
I forward some precious quotes of George Orwell on pacifism
one question and a few considerations:

--------------------------
Question:

Does someone know anything specific about the life of remaining KAFIRs
(pagans of perhaps greco macedonian descent) of some valleys of north east
of Kabul in Afghanistan?

--------------------------
Considerations about the so called war on Afghanistan

A) It is not a war on Afghanistan state and legal government in the eyes
of:
1) UN which never recognized Taliban's government
2) Organizations of muslim states same as above
3) All states in the world except Pakistan, the only state in present
recognizing the the Taliban as a legitimate goverment. (Of course they
installed them, but that notwistanding they help the coalition against
Talibans & Terror).
4) The resistence of Northerners against arab-pakistani dominated Talibans
dictatorship
5) The previous government of Afghanistan still recognized by UN,
6) The former king which is trying to form a kind of constitutional assembly
to estabilish the Afghan state on new foundations (comprensive of all etnic
groups) .

B) Is legally an act of self defense according to the founding UN Charter

C) Is made OBEYING to one of the 3 UN resolutions voted almost at unanimity
(except IRAQ - if I am correct ) the one which says that ALL COUNTRIES
MUST ERADICATE TERRORISM BY ANY AVAILABLE MEANS
(my words from reports heard in languages different from english).

D) is made in accordance with a coalition never seen before in history,
almost the unanimity of all nations
E) Is made do not to surrender the fondamental values of our civilization:
Freedom from fear, freedom of religion, and no less important
Sovereignity at home and for foreign policy of a sovereign state (lake
USA which doesn't want his foreign policy dictated by a self appointed
prophet).
F) Is almost all the hope of change for millions of practicl slaves in
Afghanistan, especially women condemned to live in walking cells of darkness
under their Burqa, true mobile prison.

--------------------------------

George Orwell about pacifism

"[T]here is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though
unadmitted motive appears to be HATRED of western democracy and admiration
of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that
one side is AS BAD AS the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of
younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means
express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against
Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn
violence as such, but only violence used in defence of
western countries." -George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism," 1945

"In so far as it hampers the British war effort, British pacifism is on the
side of the Nazis, and German pacifism, if it exists, is on the side of
Britain and the USSR. Since pacifists have more freedom of action in
countries where traces of democracy survive, pacifism can act more
effectively against democracy than for it. Objectively the pacifist is
pro-Nazi." - George Orwell [1941]

-------------------
Best regards
Marcus Prometheus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Osama's Guilt
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <rapax@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:21:44 +0300

Ave...
I'm too old to waste my time so let's simplify things...
The Kurd people claim our south eastern region...
When you claim something what would you do?
Would you create a base in a neighboring country...arm yourself with
all sorts of
weapons...and then would you attack to the villages gather the men in
mosques..
massacre them on the spot...then amico..would you continue your job on
women,
children...but this time in order to save bullets...would you stab them
with bayonets
and knives?
Would you set bombs in shopping malls,cafes,restaurants in the big
cities....kill all
the innocent people who have nothing to do with your war?
Do you find this as a 'natural' way of claiming something?
In my code this is called Terrorism!And it begins where the
humanity ends.It
begins when you can easily kill innocent people for your own views!
Terror is the weapon of the cowards who can't handle to fight as
'Men' !
And when your people begin to get massacred ...what would you
do?Sit back
and wait?If they want a war we are here with our army...and wars are
fought with
the armies...but they have chosen to massacre women and children...so
they must
bear the results!As Taliban is bearing now...
When you say that 'terrorism is the weapon of the weak' you are
saying that
the weak has the right of killing everyone who doesn't accept his
conditions!So,Taliban
is right when it crashed those planes to the WTC ...is this your
judgement ?
'I want this...and if you don't do as I ask I'll massacre your
women,children!
And I have the right because I'm poor and weak!'Very reasonable indeed!
By the way....I don't understand why I'm not supposed to speak
for a Kurd,
an Afghan or a Russian...you are doing this very well!You sit there in
your cosy
corner and pass judgements,condemn and categorize the peoples the countries
right from the start!Since we don't have citizens from
China,Honduras,Angola,Chile
they can't defend themselves against your remarks and categorizations!
Don't try to play the God!There is no such thing as
'perfection'..every country
has its rights and wrongs...!And if you try to right those wrongs you
attack to the
windmills!
I wish you were a Turk or an American...I'd love to know how
you feel when
you hear the death of someone you love..someone innocent...someone who has
nothing to do with the Taliban or the Kurds!Could you defend them so
easily then?
Now,I don't want to go on with this discussion which I'm
dragged into it
involuntarily!This isn't why I'm here for!So....amico...let's drop it
and return to Rome!
Vale
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Osama's Guilt
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:34:48 -0000

Salve amice

I'll gladly drop the issue, but now I'm sure that you misunderstood
me. And in order for me not to be misunderstood by more people I
still want to answer your post.

> And when your people begin to get massacred ...what would you
> do?Sit back
> and wait?If they want a war we are here with our army...and
wars are
> fought with
> the armies...but they have chosen to massacre women and
children...so
> they must
> bear the results!As Taliban is bearing now...
You couldn't be more correct. The Taliban knew what the answer was
and still they did not care about the safety of their people. The
same probably happenned to the Kurds (whose case I'm not competent to
judge due to the lack of info).

> When you say that 'terrorism is the weapon of the weak'
you are
> saying that
> the weak has the right of killing everyone who doesn't accept
his
> conditions!So,Taliban
> is right when it crashed those planes to the WTC ...is this
your
> judgement ?
> 'I want this...and if you don't do as I ask I'll
massacre your
> women,children!
> And I have the right because I'm poor and weak!'Very reasonable
>indeed!
Here starts your misunderstanding. I did not defend that they should
use that weapon. I said that they would use it for sure.
But my main thesis had not to do with this. My main thesis was:
- The people of Iraq were victims of the Kurd as well. If Turkey has
the right to respond with military action, why shall we prevent Iraq
from doing the same?
My point is: nations are treated differently depending on the
interests of states, and independently of concepts such as human
rights, democracy and other fancy excuses.

> By the way....I don't understand why I'm not supposed
to speak
> for a Kurd,
> an Afghan or a Russian...you are doing this very well!You sit
there in
> your cosy
> corner and pass judgements,condemn and categorize the peoples
the countries
> right from the start!Since we don't have citizens from
> China,Honduras,Angola,Chile
> they can't defend themselves against your remarks and
>categorizations!
I have used the categorizations I hear in the news everyday. So maybe
you are right. I'm quite influenced by western "democratic" (!!!)
propaganda, after all.

> Don't try to play the God!There is no such thing as
> 'perfection'..every country
> has its rights and wrongs...!And if you try to right those
wrongs you
> attack to the
> windmills!
I don't want to attack the wrongs. I just want people to see them
instead of writing passionate emails which have little to do with the
motives that move the engine of History.

> I wish you were a Turk or an American...I'd love to know how
> you feel when
> you hear the death of someone you love..someone
innocent...someone who has
> nothing to do with the Taliban or the Kurds!Could you defend
them so
> easily then?
Again, I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to figure out why some
countries are judged differently than others in the same situation.
As a citizen of a country that belongs to NATO I risk myself to have
the same fate sooner or later. Today, one of my professors received a
suspicious letter from Florida which he things might be contaminated.
I had the letter in my hands. Of course if I were an American I would
be more frightened.

Vale bene
Graecus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] national anthem
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:19:17 +0200

Ave!

Probably borh are acceptable, but Latin is - I think - more appropriate. Perhaps, when the music is written, texts in both languages can be prepared? In Belgium, the national anthem has both a French and a Dutch text...

Vale!
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Sarault
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] national anthem

Ave

In latin or english

Marc Sarault
Canada Orientalis

>From: "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] national anthem
>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:35:52 +0200
>
>Ave!
>
>Is there anybody on this list who is good in writing music and who feels
>like composing a nathional hymn, about the glory of Rome and its gods?
>
>Good idea or not?
>
>Vale!
>C. Puteus Germanicus
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Nova=20Roman=20War=20List?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:32:58 +0200

A wonderful idea. So that everybody has the possibility to discuss the thing,
but the mainlist will not be clogged by those mails.

-- Original-Nachricht --

>Salvete Omnes,
>
>I Have just started a new list, NR War, for citizens
>who wish to discuss the War on Terrorism with other
>Nova Romans.
>
>It is at
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nrwar
>
>Valete,
>L. Sicinius Drusus
>Propraetor America Austrorientalis

________________________________________
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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20New=20Topic=2E?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:51:37 +0200

Our swiss legion, legio XI Claudia Pia Fidelis is clad in dark blue, because
it is often taken to be the color of Fides. Furthermore we have written
data, that Neptune was the patron God of this legion and water is also blue.

For us here in Switzerland, the sense in reenactment is, trying to show
the public and the schools, etc. what it could have been like. Furthermore
it is also a means for us students to get into our studies instead of staying
on top of them.

Vale, Tiberius Annaeus Otho

-- Original-Nachricht --

>Salve, omnes.
>As suggested, I try to create a non-war topic.
>
>If there are any people present out of the reenactment scene, to which
I
>belong myself, I`d like to know from these where, in their opinion, lies
>the
>sense in reenacting. Furthermore I�d be interested in
>military-tunic-colour-choice of most groups. Why? and where are the sources?
>Of course everybody who is not a reenactor is invited to join the possibly
>evolving discussion.
>Valete.
>
>Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.
>
>Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

________________________________________
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] national anthem
From:	"J. Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:04:57 +0200

Salvete!

A contest that might produce such an anthem was started early September (and
cancelled due to the events in the USA), and the idea of an anthem for Nova
Roma has been floating around for quite a while. For discussion on this
topic, the Sodalitas Musarum, which had always kind of regarded this as a
pet project, I would welcome you to that list!

Valete bene,
S. Apollonius Draco

> Ave
>
> In latin or english
>
> Marc Sarault
> Canada Orientalis
>
> >From: "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
> >Subject: [novaroma] national anthem
> >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:35:52 +0200
> >
> >Ave!
> >
> >Is there anybody on this list who is good in writing music and who feels
> >like composing a nathional hymn, about the glory of Rome and its gods?
> >
> >Good idea or not?
> >
> >Vale!
> >C. Puteus Germanicus
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] national anthem
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:02:33 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Cai Putee,

> Is there anybody on this list who is good in writing music and who feels
> like composing a nathional hymn, about the glory of Rome and its gods?

The Aediles announced a competition to write such an anthem in early
September. Unfortunately, war broke out a few days later, and the
contest was cancelled. Hopefully they or their successors will try
again.

Vale, Octavius.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Romanitas
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:03:41 -0400

Salve,

>Marcus Salix saverius at javier_gil_ruiz@-------- wrote:
>
>
> To conclude: I (politely, humbly and not demeaning anyone's freedom
> of speech) request from novoromans that they henceforth do refer
> to "macronations", but to regions or provinces except in the cases
> when a particular governing body is meant. Likewise they should not
> refer to "macronational differences" between citizens, alien to Nova
> Roma, but just to "provintial differences".

This is a neat idea. We all have one thing in common. That is we belong to
one Nova Roma res publica. By referring to regions with provincia names we
would be promoting this unity. This is something I fully support.

>
> This request is not based on "political correctness", but on the
> implication that our different views are a natural part of Nova Roma.
> As they are there to stay for long, we may as well profit from them.

I also like this idea. It makes a lot of sense that a empire as vast as our
ancestors suffered from regional disputes. By using provincia names to refer
to a region would serve as a reminder that we all belong to one group with
the same interests. Excellent point.

>
> P.S.: Several citizens of hispania provincia have taken part in
> our "bibliotheca" project. Its goal is to accumulate our own articles
> concerning every aspect of ancient Rome.
> The first rough version of it is already available at the URL:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/nrhispania/bibliotheca_es.html
>
> At the moment all our articles are still only available in spanish.
> But an english translation is of course under way. We have articles
> on the different languages of the empire, on art, on roman customs...

Looks like a project with a lot of potential. I cannot read Spanish,
although I will definitely like to view it when a translation is completed.
I also checked out your provincial website. Very nice, the provincia is
lucky to have a such a nice site.

>
> We will be very pleased if any members decide to contribute to this
> exciting and promising project

I will see what I can come up with in the future, I would love to
contribute.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro sum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New Topic.
From:	"Mike Rasschaert" <hadescallias@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:54:08 -0000

Salvete
Is there any reenactment taking place in belgium?
Valete


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Topic.
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:21:31 -0400

I belonged to the SCA for years, which is of course has a rather loose attitude about authenticity (what with the vast time periods, the Medieval football players, etc). Still, I joined because it helps me to see and experience how things work, how clothes feel to wear, what it's like to do without technology in the kitchen, etc. Hands-on helps sort out which theories of everyday living work & which are academic silliness. That's why I'll choose a living history site over a museum tour any day.
Valete,
Helena Galeria
----- Original Message -----
From: solinvictus
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: [novaroma] New Topic.

Salve, omnes.
As suggested, I try to create a non-war topic.

If there are any people present out of the reenactment scene, to which I
belong myself, I`d like to know from these where, in their opinion, lies the
sense in reenacting. Furthermore I�d be interested in
military-tunic-colour-choice of most groups. Why? and where are the sources?
Of course everybody who is not a reenactor is invited to join the possibly
evolving discussion.
Valete.

Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Osama's Guilt
From:	Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion <rapax@-------->
Date:	Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:11:45 +0300

Ave again ...
I'm glad to see that though we may have different opinions we can
still agree on
something if not on everything...as for your question about Iraq...it
maybe because of
their ill reputation as a country.As far as I can remember we never
tried to invade
another country...we never tried to threaten the world with nuclear and
chemical
weapons...and we never use any sort of Terror in any part of the world!
These might be the reasons but of course these are also only the
personal views
of a man who prefers spending his time reading about Rome instead of
the world
politics !
I hope that suspicious letter is harmless...we need our Pontifex here!
Vale
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Salve amice
>
>I'll gladly drop the issue, but now I'm sure that you misunderstood
>me. And in order for me not to be misunderstood by more people I
>still want to answer your post.
>
> > And when your people begin to get massacred ...what would you
> > do?Sit back
> > and wait?If they want a war we are here with our army...and
>wars are
> > fought with
> > the armies...but they have chosen to massacre women and
>children...so
> > they must
> > bear the results!As Taliban is bearing now...
>You couldn't be more correct. The Taliban knew what the answer was
>and still they did not care about the safety of their people. The
>same probably happenned to the Kurds (whose case I'm not competent to
>judge due to the lack of info).
>
> > When you say that 'terrorism is the weapon of the weak'
>you are
> > saying that
> > the weak has the right of killing everyone who doesn't accept
>his
> > conditions!So,Taliban
> > is right when it crashed those planes to the WTC ...is this
>your
> > judgement ?
> > 'I want this...and if you don't do as I ask I'll
>massacre your
> > women,children!
> > And I have the right because I'm poor and weak!'Very reasonable
> >indeed!
>Here starts your misunderstanding. I did not defend that they should
>use that weapon. I said that they would use it for sure.
>But my main thesis had not to do with this. My main thesis was:
>- The people of Iraq were victims of the Kurd as well. If Turkey has
>the right to respond with military action, why shall we prevent Iraq
>from doing the same?
>My point is: nations are treated differently depending on the
>interests of states, and independently of concepts such as human
>rights, democracy and other fancy excuses.
>
>
> > By the way....I don't understand why I'm not supposed
>to speak
> > for a Kurd,
> > an Afghan or a Russian...you are doing this very well!You sit
>there in
> > your cosy
> > corner and pass judgements,condemn and categorize the peoples
>the countries
> > right from the start!Since we don't have citizens from
> > China,Honduras,Angola,Chile
> > they can't defend themselves against your remarks and
> >categorizations!
>I have used the categorizations I hear in the news everyday. So maybe
>you are right. I'm quite influenced by western "democratic" (!!!)
>propaganda, after all.
>
>
> > Don't try to play the God!There is no such thing as
> > 'perfection'..every country
> > has its rights and wrongs...!And if you try to right those
>wrongs you
> > attack to the
> > windmills!
>I don't want to attack the wrongs. I just want people to see them
>instead of writing passionate emails which have little to do with the
>motives that move the engine of History.
>
>
> > I wish you were a Turk or an American...I'd love to know how
> > you feel when
> > you hear the death of someone you love..someone
>innocent...someone who has
> > nothing to do with the Taliban or the Kurds!Could you defend
>them so
> > easily then?
>Again, I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to figure out why some
>countries are judged differently than others in the same situation.
>As a citizen of a country that belongs to NATO I risk myself to have
>the same fate sooner or later. Today, one of my professors received a
>suspicious letter from Florida which he things might be contaminated.
>I had the letter in my hands. Of course if I were an American I would
>be more frightened.
>
>Vale bene
>Graecus
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: national anthem
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:52:34 -0000

Has anyone heard the track called "The Might of Rome" on the
"Gladiator" soundtrack? It's the one played when the
Commodus character returns to Rome. Maybe that would make
a good anthem if it was modified and words added.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

--- In novaroma@--------, "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@h...>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> Is there anybody on this list who is good in writing music and
who feels like composing a nathional hymn, about the glory of
Rome and its gods?
>
> Good idea or not?
>
> Vale!
> C. Puteus Germanicus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]