Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: nota patres et matres familiae
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:04:07 -0800 (PST)
Salvete Quirites, et salve, Cai Putee Germanice.

--- Caius Puteus Germanicus <puteus@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Despite my defense of the taxes, I ask all of you: is there another
> way to make the number of gentes decline?

I would say "Yes, there is". My option would be to follow the
historical model more closely, as has been discussed many times on this
very same list. That would increase the number of familiae, but it
could decrease the number of gentes.



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From: Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 00:07:40 -0600
Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD

Consul M Cassius Julianus has convened the Senate to debate and vote
upon the following items. According to the rules by which the Senate
operates, debate shall continue for 96 hours (4 days). At the end of
that time, voting shall proceed for 48 hours.

ITEM I: Diplomatic recognition of the Kingdom of TorHavn

Whereas, the micronation known as the Kingdom of TorHavn shares with
Nova Roma a commitment to seriousness of purpose, aspires to] true
sovereignty, and exhibits a stability of action and activity, Nova Roma
hereby grants official recognition to the Kingdom of TorHavn as a
sovereign entity and equal in the world community.

ITEM II: Appointment of Governor of Provincia Venedia

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus is hereby appointed propraetor of provincia
Venedia.

ITEM III: Official Language Policy

I. Due to the increasingly intermacronational nature of the Citizenship
of Nova Roma, it has become necessary for the official language policy
of the Republic to be defined, in such a way that acknowledges our
historical antecedants, practical concerns, and the sensibilities of all
of our Citizens. To that end, this Senatus Consultum is adopted.

II. Latin is hereby adopted as the official ceremonial language of Nova
Roma. As such, it shall be used in rites conducted by the curule
magistrates and appointed priests of Nova Roma on behalf of the entire
nation, as well as other circumstances where it may be deemed appropriate.

III. English is hereby adopted as the de facto business language of Nova
Roma's central government. As such, it shall be used in official
communications from and day-to-day business conducted by the central
government (defined for purposes of this proviso as the Senate and
non-provincial magistrates). Other languages may be used in such
communications where deemed appropriate, but an English translation must
accompany such communications.

IV. The Curator Sermo shall have the authority to set language] policy
for those communications fora under his administration.

V. This policy does not effect in any way languages used in official or
unofficial provincial fora, fora maintained by official Sodalitates, or
private fora (including but not limited to email lists organized by
private Citizens).

Item IV - Age Exemption for Sextus Apollonius Draco

Sextus Apollonius Draco has placed a second request before this body to
be granted an age exemption to stand as a magisterial candidate in the
upcoming elections. Does the Senate Grant his request? (Requires a 2/3
majority to pass.)

Item V - Age Exemption for Titus Apollonius Cicatrix

Titus Apollonius Cicatrix has placed a request before this body to be
granted an age exemption to stand as a magisterial candidate in the
upcoming elections. Does the Senate grant this request? (Requires a 2/3
majority to pass.)

Item VI - Appoint a replacement Rogator to replace C. Moravius, who has
recently resigned.

**No candidates have stepped forward to date.

Item VII - Appointment of Governor of Provincia Lacus Magni

M. Scipiadus Scipio Africanus is hearby appointed as propraetor of Lacus
Magni on January 1st, at the end of the current Praetor's term.

Valete





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Subject: [novaroma] Face-to Face meetings in Thule
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 17:16:29 +0100
Salvete Quirites!

We have had some face-to face meetings in the Propraetorium (Savar). During
the autumn I have gathered four to six persons around the board game
"Republic of Rome" a couple of times, where a couple of these persons have
been citizens. The game has formed the historical back-ground for the day
and these gatherings have been quite a success. We have also gathered three
citizens and one sympathizer to a Roman dinner (the 11th of November). We
will try to continue with more different meetings during the following
year. As far as I understand there has also been some informal meetings in
Regio Norvegica.

(extract from the comming Provincial Annual Report of Provincia Thule)

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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"I'll either find a way or make one"
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Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: nota patres et matres familiae
From: "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 09:16:52 +0100
Ave omnes!

I have had a lot of reactions to my proposition of decreasing the number of gentes.
I have retained a few that are worth debating:
1. period of 6 months between acceptance as citizen and possibility to create your own gens - by Labienus Fortunatus: I see the point of opposition by Lucius Maximus Serranus in getting used to the Roman names etc. But isn't the whole idea to discourage people to found new gentes? Only the die-hards will consider changing theit names six months later...
2. combining this with the tax I proposed every pater and mater familias to pay
3. annual registration of the gentes, combined with taxes (by Labienus Fortunatus)

As a result of all this I think that, no matter the possibility to solve the tax problem and the gentes problem seperately, we should consider keeping them together. Any active Roman is ready to contribute to the growth and maintenance of our Republic, with ideas, spare time, discussion, votes and taxes!

I reject the idea of 'getting closer to the historical' view on gentes and familiae (by Gnaeus Salix Astur, sorry - not against you personnally of course). This is to complicated for newcomers, will make them lose intrest. Secondly, what's left of the initial idea of making gentes working closer together in order to go above the macronational differences? I think the idea of sharing a same nomen gentile and having a different cognomen is to remain as it is now: we are, biologically, not sons and daughters of one forebear. The cognomen usually indicates a personal touch: e.g. I chose for Germanicus to affirm my belief in Germanic (and Roman) gods and to stress that - in provincia Gallia - I am a Dutch speaking person (Germanic language). Don't take that away from people. The distinction between gentes and familiae would become to difficult, I'm afraid. In this I think I am close to Lucius Maximus Serranus' point of view.

I hope this synthetical essay will result in a clear idea about what should be changed or what can be done.

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: nota patres et matres familiae
From: Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 11:52:32 -0600
Salvete Cai Putee Quiritesque

> I have had a lot of reactions to my proposition of decreasing the
> number of gentes. I have retained a few that are worth debating:

Well, let's agree that this list contains the few that you feel are
worth debating.

> 1. period of 6 months between acceptance as citizen and possibility
> to create your own gens - by Labienus Fortunatus: I see the point
> of opposition by Lucius Maximus Serranus in getting used to the
> Roman names etc. But isn't the whole idea to discourage people to
> found new gentes? Only the die-hards will consider changing theit
> names six months later...

Yes, that is one of the goals. The other goal is to ensure that new
cives have at least some social group when they enter Nova Roma. That
is, some group of people who have a real incentive to interact with him
or her and to help integrate him or her into Nova Roman society.

> 2. combining this with the tax I proposed every pater and mater
> familias to pay
> 3. annual registration of the gentes, combined with
> taxes (by Labienus Fortunatus)

Actually, Equitius Censor was the first to suggest taxing each
m/paterfamilias, and annual registration of gentes and m/patresfamilias
came from L Sicinius (IIRC).

L Equitius prefers a system in which patres et matres familias pay a
larger fee for the privilege. His latest suggestion was $25 US for
m/patresfamilias, and $5 US for other cives. I don't really have much
of a problem with this, except for some misgivings if the
m/paterfamilias is held responsible for the taxes of his or her
gentiles. Cornelius Censor would be responsible for collecting $325 US
by this scheme, after all. Considering the differing impact of a US
dollar in differing countries, that could be an incredible burden for a
m/paterfamilias from Eastern Europe, for example. It's something to
keep in mind.

> I reject the idea of 'getting closer to the historical' view on
> gentes and familiae (by Gnaeus Salix Astur, sorry - not against you
> personnally of course). This is to complicated for newcomers, will
> make them lose intrest.

This doesn't necessarily have to be the case. A simple change of
terminology could clear up the vast majority of the discrepancies
between our system and the ancient practice. If we change the term
'gens' to the term 'familia', most of our inconsistencies with the
ancients go away. And, by lumping those familiae (now gentes) that
share a nomen together into gentes (a level of organization that does
not yet exist), we provide a possible impetus for even more community
building.

Note that the ancient familia was much larger than a household, or what
we usually call a family. It included everyone who was beholden to the
paterfamilias, and often contained more than one set of blood relations.
Now, our practice won't ever completely match the ancients (familiae
weren't voluntary associations; contained slaves and clientes, along
with their families; et cetera), but there's no reason we can't better
emulate the form of their relationships.

> Secondly, what's left of the initial idea
> of making gentes working closer together in order to go above the
> macronational differences? I think the idea of sharing a same nomen
> gentile and having a different cognomen is to remain as it is now:
> we are, biologically, not sons and daughters of one forebear.

The members of the ancient gentes weren't the descendants of one
forebear. Adoption occasionally occurred, bringing someone (and his
wife and children) completely unrelated by blood into a familia (and
therefore a gens). Slaves who were manumitted took the nomen gentilis
of their former master, thereby becoming members of his or her gens.
New citizens often took the nomen gentilis, and therefore joined the
gens, of the magistrate who gave them their citizenship. Personally, I
see the process by which new people join Nova Roma as a form of adoption
(technically arrogation, if one wants to get picky).

> The
> cognomen usually indicates a personal touch: e.g. I chose for
> Germanicus to affirm my belief in Germanic (and Roman) gods and to
> stress that - in provincia Gallia - I am a Dutch speaking person
> (Germanic language). Don't take that away from people.

Nobody would be taking that away. We already allow gentes to share a
nomen gentilis and be differentiated by their cognomina. There are
already two Gentes Mariae, Maria and Maria Secunda. Now, to which gens
does (the hypothetical) Ti Marius Secundus belong? The answer is that
he could be a member of either of them. In one case, his cognomen is a
personal appellation. In the other, it is determined by his choice of
gens. And, for those who join a gens which already assigns a cognomen,
there is always the option of adding an agnomen.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
Quicquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: nota patres et matres familiae
From: "Lucius Maximus Serranus" <luciusmaximusserranus@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 17:49:19 +0100
Salvete Novoromani, Cai,

I'm glad we had this discussion. Thanks to you Caius, I now understand the importance of gentes in the organization of Nova Roma. Your solution about taxes, combined to the "6 month experienced" concept of Labienus Fortunatus looks ideal to me.

Let's see if these discussions and ideas will have consequences and applications.

Thanks to all of you in this debate,

Valete,

Lucius Maximus Serranus
----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Puteus Germanicus
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: nota patres et matres familiae


Ave omnes!

I have had a lot of reactions to my proposition of decreasing the number of gentes.
I have retained a few that are worth debating:
1. period of 6 months between acceptance as citizen and possibility to create your own gens - by Labienus Fortunatus: I see the point of opposition by Lucius Maximus Serranus in getting used to the Roman names etc. But isn't the whole idea to discourage people to found new gentes? Only the die-hards will consider changing theit names six months later...
2. combining this with the tax I proposed every pater and mater familias to pay
3. annual registration of the gentes, combined with taxes (by Labienus Fortunatus)

As a result of all this I think that, no matter the possibility to solve the tax problem and the gentes problem seperately, we should consider keeping them together. Any active Roman is ready to contribute to the growth and maintenance of our Republic, with ideas, spare time, discussion, votes and taxes!

I reject the idea of 'getting closer to the historical' view on gentes and familiae (by Gnaeus Salix Astur, sorry - not against you personnally of course). This is to complicated for newcomers, will make them lose intrest. Secondly, what's left of the initial idea of making gentes working closer together in order to go above the macronational differences? I think the idea of sharing a same nomen gentile and having a different cognomen is to remain as it is now: we are, biologically, not sons and daughters of one forebear. The cognomen usually indicates a personal touch: e.g. I chose for Germanicus to affirm my belief in Germanic (and Roman) gods and to stress that - in provincia Gallia - I am a Dutch speaking person (Germanic language). Don't take that away from people. The distinction between gentes and familiae would become to difficult, I'm afraid. In this I think I am close to Lucius Maximus Serranus' point of view.

I hope this synthetical essay will result in a clear idea about what should be changed or what can be done.

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Subject: Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda
From: "Lucius Maximus Serranus" <luciusmaximusserranus@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:53:13 +0100
Salvete omnes,

Here's the address of The Kingdom of TorHavn. It might be a good idea that people know about it since we talk about official recognition : http://www.geocities.com/torhavn/ . It is true that TorHavn has in common with us that seriousness and interests in true sovereignty and activities... which distinguish it from fun-micronations which insist more in role playing and state simulation (Ydemos, Prya, Krassland, Pseudopolis, Araeluma, Mauresia..etc). But it differs from Nova Roman ideas when TorHavn speak about itself as a "warrior-nation" and explains about "aggressive diplomacy" and "mutual ignorance with U.S.A.". I suggest we all have a look at their website and objectively analyse which are our differences and what exactly do we have in common. The recognition of TorHavn is an important thing, and requires from us that we all know about what we are about to officially recognize.

Valete,

Lucius Maximus Serranus

----- Original Message -----
From: Fortunatus
To: novaroma@-------- ; novaromaannounce@--------
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 7:07 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Announcement of Senate Agenda


Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD

Consul M Cassius Julianus has convened the Senate to debate and vote
upon the following items. According to the rules by which the Senate
operates, debate shall continue for 96 hours (4 days). At the end of
that time, voting shall proceed for 48 hours.

ITEM I: Diplomatic recognition of the Kingdom of TorHavn

Whereas, the micronation known as the Kingdom of TorHavn shares with
Nova Roma a commitment to seriousness of purpose, aspires to] true
sovereignty, and exhibits a stability of action and activity, Nova Roma
hereby grants official recognition to the Kingdom of TorHavn as a
sovereign entity and equal in the world community.

ITEM II: Appointment of Governor of Provincia Venedia

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus is hereby appointed propraetor of provincia
Venedia.

ITEM III: Official Language Policy

I. Due to the increasingly intermacronational nature of the Citizenship
of Nova Roma, it has become necessary for the official language policy
of the Republic to be defined, in such a way that acknowledges our
historical antecedants, practical concerns, and the sensibilities of all
of our Citizens. To that end, this Senatus Consultum is adopted.

II. Latin is hereby adopted as the official ceremonial language of Nova
Roma. As such, it shall be used in rites conducted by the curule
magistrates and appointed priests of Nova Roma on behalf of the entire
nation, as well as other circumstances where it may be deemed appropriate.

III. English is hereby adopted as the de facto business language of Nova
Roma's central government. As such, it shall be used in official
communications from and day-to-day business conducted by the central
government (defined for purposes of this proviso as the Senate and
non-provincial magistrates). Other languages may be used in such
communications where deemed appropriate, but an English translation must
accompany such communications.

IV. The Curator Sermo shall have the authority to set language] policy
for those communications fora under his administration.

V. This policy does not effect in any way languages used in official or
unofficial provincial fora, fora maintained by official Sodalitates, or
private fora (including but not limited to email lists organized by
private Citizens).

Item IV - Age Exemption for Sextus Apollonius Draco

Sextus Apollonius Draco has placed a second request before this body to
be granted an age exemption to stand as a magisterial candidate in the
upcoming elections. Does the Senate Grant his request? (Requires a 2/3
majority to pass.)

Item V - Age Exemption for Titus Apollonius Cicatrix

Titus Apollonius Cicatrix has placed a request before this body to be
granted an age exemption to stand as a magisterial candidate in the
upcoming elections. Does the Senate grant this request? (Requires a 2/3
majority to pass.)

Item VI - Appoint a replacement Rogator to replace C. Moravius, who has
recently resigned.

**No candidates have stepped forward to date.

Item VII - Appointment of Governor of Provincia Lacus Magni

M. Scipiadus Scipio Africanus is hearby appointed as propraetor of Lacus
Magni on January 1st, at the end of the current Praetor's term.

Valete



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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Announcement of Senate Agenda
From: "CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:29:31 -0000
I'mnot sure qhite what to make of them to tell you the truth. I'm
not sure what I make of them saying they are a warrior state yet
deplore war bacause war is not the root word for warrior.

Marcus Cornelius Tiberius

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Maximus Serranus"
<luciusmaximusserranus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> Here's the address of The Kingdom of TorHavn. It might be a
good idea that people know about it since we talk about official
recognition : http://www.geocities.com/torhavn/ . It is true that
TorHavn has in common with us that seriousness and interests
in true sovereignty and activities... which distinguish it from
fun-micronations which insist more in role playing and state
simulation (Ydemos, Prya, Krassland, Pseudopolis, Araeluma,
Mauresia..etc). But it differs from Nova Roman ideas when
TorHavn speak about itself as a "warrior-nation" and explains
about "aggressive diplomacy" and "mutual ignorance with
U.S.A.". I suggest we all have a look at their website and
objectively analyse which are our differences and what exactly do
we have in common. The recognition of TorHavn is an important
thing, and requires from us that we all know about what we are
about to officially recognize.
>
> Valete,
>
> Lucius Maximus Serranus
>





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Subject: [novaroma] My Thanks to Our Citizens
From: "Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 17:34:03 -0500
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

I am not sure where to start, as there are a great many citizens who contribute so much to Nova Roma. I do not believe it would be really fair to set one citizen above another in such a list. However, there are a few that I will mention among the many who make Nova Roma possible, and contribute much of their time, and hard earned money in an attempt to build a noble dream into a reality that can be an example to the world. I ask forgiveness of those who feel that I have forgotten them. Although some of us may work behind the scenes, and be left out of any such list, I am sure that our efforts, even though unintentionally overlooked, are appreciated just as much. My sincere thanks to ALL who contribute to our micro-nation. I consider you all my friends.
OUR NOBLE CONSULS: Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Julianus. These two men are the founding fathers of Nova Roma. To them we owe our thanks and respect for bringing the dream of Nova Roma alive. they are the ones who have brought us all together and gave Nova Roma the framework and organization in order to become real. For this reason, I humble suggest that one day a year be set aside as a Day in Honor of our Founding Fathers. I believe it to be the least that we can do for them in appreciation.

Senator Marcus Minicius Audens: This honorable gentleman I consider to be the wise conscience of Nova Roma. From his posts I see a man who is to be greatly respected for his wisdom gained through his various experiences in life. May we have him with us for many years, to help us see perhaps where we go wrong with our emotions, and to see things from a different perspective when we are blinded by our hard headedness in decisions we want to make. I am not ashamed to say that he has corrected me and made me see where I have gone wrong on a couple of occasions. I have great respect for his views, and appreciate his contributions greatly. I thank you my friend. I wish I had you eloquence, your way with words.

Senator, Pontifex, Antonius Gryllus Graecus: This honorable citizen has filled his positions with great dedication. He has given greatly of his time and knowledge and filled his offices with no thought of reward or thanks. His constant reminders of the holy days in our Religio, along with educational information of the significance of the holy days are much appreciated by those of us who do our best to follow the Religio. Again, I have great respect for this gentleman, and thank him greatly for his contributions to our res publica.

Censors Lucius Cornellius Sulla Felix and Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus: Without doubt these gentlemen should be shown more appreciation then they receive. There is a huge amount of work involved in being Censor, unless I am badly mistaken. The amount of time involved, and dedication to Nova Roma required of this position is not for someone who is only playing at being a citizen of this nation. Gentlemen, both of you have my sincere thanks. I have long appreciated your work, although I have not before said so. I am afraid I have taken the efforts of all the contributers to Nova Roma for granted. I hope today to in a small way make up for that in this post to the list. My friend Lucius Cornelius, my prayers are with you and your family in your recent loss. May our Gods and Goddesses comfort you and yours.

Pompeia Cornelio Strabo - Propraetrix Provincia Canada Orientalis
My Governor and friend Pompeia Cornelia is a Nova Roman who is not afraid to take on a great deal of work, and invest a great deal of time and effort on behalf of her Provincia. Propraetrix Pompeia is one of those Nova Romans who is not afraid to show her love for Nova Roma. Although raising a family together with her husband, and working a great deal of overtime and shiftwork as a nurse in the macro-world, she somehow found the time to arrange the Fort Malden gathering this past August. This took a great deal of planning, time, making arrangements with organizers of the event, and financial sacrifice on her part. This accomplishment on her part is a perfect example of one totally dedicated to that in which they believe. We are extremely fortunate in Canada Orientalis to have someone with such dedication. I am fortunate to know her as a friend. Pompeia Cornelio, I give you my sincere thanks for all that you have sacrificed for Nova Roma, and Provincia Canadae Orientalis. May you and your family be favoured by our Gods and Goddesses and be blessed in years to come.

I could go on with the names of many other Nova Romans who have done much more they need to in order to further Nova Roma. Others who are owed much respect and thanks are Senator Quintus Fabius Maximus, Senator Caius Flavius Diocletianus. Senator Titus Labienus Fortunatus. One who is without doubt a great writer, although I have not always agreed with him, although I do respect his opinions, - Marcus Apollonius Formosanus.
Another gentleman who works quietly behind the scenes much of the time, but who also contributes a great deal more than many of us, our Curator Araneae, Marcus Octavius Germanicus. We all owe him a great deal of thanks for his contributions and work. He is one of those who make it all possible.
There are many more deserving of much praise, but I had better stop here as I am getting carried away. To all those, I am sorry that your name is not here, I do appreciate all your efforts. Multas gratias tibi ago.

Valete: Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Face-to Face meetings in Thule
From: "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:26:38 +0100
Ave!

Could you explain the game you mentionned to me? We're about five people trying to organise our first provincial meeting in Germania Inferior (the northern part of Gallia) at the occasion of the Saturnalia. We're planning to have a Roman cena thanks to the hospitality of one of our cives. But any ideas, even if they're for some other time, are welcome of course!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris


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