Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Endorsement of Gnaeus Salix Astur by citizens of his Provincia
From:	"Ianus Minicius Sparsus" <jfernandez50@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:05:24 +0100

Some of you already know Gnaeus Salix Astur but it is mainly in the Hispania Provincia where we can vouch for his enthusiasm and know about his capacity for continuous, quality hard work.

Every citizen has his or her own views on the ideal of Nova Roma. This is also true of Astur, although we have found his mentality to be flexible. For him Nova Roma should be a community open to all opinions that are rooted in a love for ancient Rome, because there is not an only valid way of understanding Nova Roma. It is also because of this that we believe that Gnaeus Salix Astur is the most indicated to defend the interests of the plebs as a Tribunus Plebis.

Furthermore, Astur is not only a very hard worker, but also commands an enormous knowledge about Roman History and Culture.

Astur's political opinions are something that he has to express for himself. However, having spoken with him on a daily basis for several months, we are sure that Astur has a real concern for the interests of the minoritary groups of Nova Roma, may a reinforcement of the democratic element of the Novoroman political system, and an improvement of the level of activity in Nova Roma, especially outside politics minority groups of Nova Roma, envisions a reinforcement of the democratic element of the Novoroman political system and will work to improve the level of activity in Nova roma, specially in non political matters.

For the greater good of Nova Roma we request you to consider voting Gnaeus Salix Astur for the magistratura of Tribunus Plebis!.

I. Minicius Sparsus
M. Durmius Sisena
D. Cintia Domna
M. Salix Saverius
Sp. Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus
M. Salix Vigilius, Propraetor Hispaniae
L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
G. Salix Galaicus
M. Salix Visigothicus
M. Antonius Hispanicus
M. Didius Geminus Falcus
M. Minicius Rufus
T. Minicius Marianus
B. Salicia Saltata
C. Salix Davianus
L. Minicius Laietanus
M. Salix Aurelius Hispanicus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Keeping track of candidates
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:02:56 +1100 (EST)

Salve Caius Puteus,

Hhhhmmm....Gaius Sententius Bruttius Suria....I must
be the first citizen in Nova Roma to officially exist
in two seperate gens!;-))

Vale bene,

Gaius SENTIUS Bruttius SURA

Candidate Aedilis Plebis

--- Caius Puteus Germanicus <puteus@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Ave Iulia! 
 
I have kept a little list myself, with some small
diferences. 
 
Elections Nova Roma 2755 
 
 
 
Consul (2) 
 
M. Cornelius Sulla 
 
M. Octavius Germanicus 
 
Censor (2) 
 
M. Minucius Audens 
 
Priscilla Vedia Serena 
 
Praetor (2) 
 
Ti. Labienus Fortunatus 
 
Pompeia Cornelia 
 
Tribunus Plebis (2) 
 
Gnaeus Salix Astur 
 
Aedilis plebis (2) 
 
T. Apollonius Cicatrix 
 
S. Apollonius Draco 
 
G. Sententius Bruttius Suria 
 
Aedilis curulis (2) 
 
Caeso Fabius Quintianus 
 
Am. Claudius Petrus 
 
Questor (4-8) 
 
G. Minucius Hadrianus 
 
T. Octavius Pius 
 
D. Cornelius Sepulchatius 
 
C. Popillius Laenas 
 
Curator Differium (1) 
 
M.Scipio Africanus 
 
Curator Araneum (1) 
 
M. Octavius Germanicus 
 
Curator Sermonem (1) 
 
Manius Villius Limitanus (Michel Loos) 
 
Vale optime in pace deorum! 
 
Caius Puteus Germanicus 
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae
Inferioris 
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC 
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris
Europaeque Occidentalis 
<a
href="http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/">http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/</a> 
<a
href="http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/">http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/</a> 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Co-officiality of Latin
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:38:24 -0500

Salvete Cnae Salix et alii

:
:> 1) Actually in this list every language is allowed with
:> the condition that it would be accompanied with an
:> English translation. If also messages only in Latin
:> language or with a Latin translation are allowed this
:> would encourage many citizens to learn Latin. Of
:> course most of citizens will continue using English,
:> but this gives equal status to Latin and English.
:
:I would like to hear what our current officials think of this proposal.
:I know that usually no exceptions should be made on the "needs
:translation" rule, but I agree with Davianus in that Latin is a
:*special* case, and that it should recieve a special treatment.

This would be up to the current curator sermonum. I personally think that
English translation should accompany even posts in Latin to this list, since
most subscribers use only English.
:
:Perhaps we could create a permanent position for a Latin translator on
:the main list. This is/should be/will be our *official* language, after
:all.

It is our official ceremonial language. Our official business language,
however, is English.
:
:> 2) We must finish completely translation of the official
:> web-page. (Domna Claudia Auspicata has been making
:> an excellent work in this respect).

I agree. I regret that I have submitted to Domna Claudia only the main page
of the Pantheon section, which, by the time I finished it, had already been
translated by another sodalis :(.
:
:> 3) Give additional points to:
:> a) Citizens that don't know Latin, if they learn it.
:> b) Citizens that know Latin, if they use it.
:
:I guess that Davianus is talking about *century* points. I also think
:that this point is worth considering; no reward will be large enough
:for the spreading of our official language.

This idea is definitely worth expanding. Perhaps 1 point per work submitted
to, and approved by, the sodalitas latinitatis for publication in the
camenaeum, as well as a point for completion of a course in the schola
latina. I wonder what other citizens think of this idea.
:
:> 4) Unification of technological terminology (terms
:> such as: newsgroup, email, electronic, website .)
:> in order that person that now are using different
:> expressions agree in a normalized Latin form. For
:> this proposition we can create an official organism
:> of linguistic normalization.
:
:I think that this could be accomplished by an organism created by the
:Sodalitas Latinitatis, with official sanction from the Senatus.

To some extent, this is already being done by the sodalitas. We do have a
list of latin computer terms available through our yahoo groups page;
presumably, this list can be expanded/modified by the tresviri -- if not, I
welcome clarification from any of them on this point. I don't think that
this is something that needs the Senate's attention.
:
:What do you think, gentlemen?
:
:
Valete

C Marius Merullus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Co-officiality of Latin
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 25 Nov 2001 22:07:37 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Claudius Salix Davianus [mailto:davius_sanctex@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 7:17 AM
>
> Four measures for encouragement in the use of Latin:
>
> 1) Actually in this list every language is allowed with
> the condition that it would be accompanied with an
> English translation. If also messages only in Latin
> language or with a Latin translation are allowed this
> would encourage many citizens to learn Latin. Of
> course most of citizens will continue using English,
> but this gives equal status to Latin and English.

A laudible goal, and one with which I agree in principle, but which is
unfortunately not practical. The entire reason for requiring English
translations of non-English posts here is so that such posts will be
intelligible and thus encourage conversation. The vast majority of our cives
speak English, and as this list is intended to foster communication, English
is the necessary medium to accomplish that purpose.

While Latin should and does enjoy a special place within our society (as
recently established by the Senatus Consultum on language policy), I think
its fair to say that far, far more people don't understand Latin than do
(myself included!).

Indeed; many people come to Nova Roma specifically with the intention of
learning Latin! If someone comes here looking to learn a language, it hardly
seems fair to hit them with posts in the very language that they came to
learn.

> 2) We must finish completely translation of the official
> web-page. (Domna Claudia Auspicata has been making
> an excellent work in this respect).

Absolutely. I would love to see this project completed as soon as possible!

> 3) Give additional points to:
> a) Citizens that don't know Latin, if they learn it.
> b) Citizens that know Latin, if they use it.

I'm not sure how this would be enactable. At what point do you declare
someone has "learned" latin? Give them a test? What if the people that "know
Latin" use it poorly? Is there a grading system? (If so, who does the
grading?) Do they have to make entire posts in the language, or merely use
technical terms within non-Latin posts?

> 4) Unification of technological terminology (terms
> such as: newsgroup, email, electronic, website .)
> in order that person that now are using different
> expressions agree in a normalized Latin form. For
> this proposition we can create an official organism
> of linguistic normalization.

There actually is already an organization that does this. I can't at the
moment remember the name or web site address, but I know it's out there.
Something like the "Living Latin Association" or something... Hmmm... maybe
someone in our Sodalitas Latinitas can help out here?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Attention Voters: Invalid Codes
From:	"Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 25 Nov 2001 22:50:32 -0500

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

The citizens with the following Tracking Numbers used invalid Voter Codes.
# 3011, # 3031, # 3050, # 3051, # 3068, # 3089,
# 3103
Please double check you Voter Codes and try again. Your code consists of three letters, followed by three numbers. Do not confuse number zero with letter "oh", or small case "L" with the number "1".
After checking, try to vote again, and if you continue to have trouble, please contact the Censors. You can also go to your profile page on the main Nova Roma site and get a Voter Code there if there is a problem.
Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Provincia Canadae Orientalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Names of cities
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:38:00 +1100 (EST)

Salvete omnes,

I am looking for names of big or largish cities in
Africa, but in certain areas in particular. I am
looking for the names of any cities below Carthage and
Hippo Reggius, but above Leptis Magna. If anyone can
help it would be greatly appreciated.

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Candidate Aedilis Plebis

http://shopping.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Shopping
- Get organised for Christmas early this year!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Names of cities
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 25 Nov 2001 23:32:02 -0800

There is a group devoted to Numinida (sp.) I cannot recall the website
off hand but they had a very good map that included alot of cities in
Africa. Check the tabularum for a Senatus Consulta that focused on
recognizing them.

vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Craig Stevenson wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I am looking for names of big or largish cities in
> Africa, but in certain areas in particular. I am
> looking for the names of any cities below Carthage and
> Hippo Reggius, but above Leptis Magna. If anyone can
> help it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Valete bene omnes,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> Candidate Aedilis Plebis
>
> http://shopping.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Shopping
> - Get organised for Christmas early this year!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Subject:	[novaroma] Declration for Tribunus Plebis
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 02:39:48 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

I Stand before you in a whitened Toga to announce I'm
offering my services to our Res Publica as Tribunus
Plebis.

L. Sicinius Drusus,
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Antonius Gryllus Graecus and "strange foreign ways"
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:56:41 -0000

Salve Gaia Cassia Fortunata

First of all, sorry for the delay in answering your posting. I was
away for the weekend.
I'd like to thank you for having questioned the content of my
posting. I believe that I would answer you in the same way Antonius
Corvus Septimius did, but as his answer did not satisfy you, I will
try to explain my view with different words.

>Perhaps
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus might clarify a statement for me. He
states, "Many
> people still think the religio romana the same as the greek
religion…or
> claiming to worship the Roman Gods in strange foreign ways (e.g.
neopagan
> approaches like Wicca), while not manifesting knowledge about the
religio
> romana".

What I mean is that I have the feeling that many people who arrive at
Nova Roma do not understand the essence of the Religio Romana, which
is present it it's very name:

- "Religio" = ritual observance
- "Romana" = proper of the Romans, proper of the city of Rome, in the
Roman way

While the Religio Romana is quite free in what regards Theology and
personal feelings about the gods, it has very strict rules concerning
ritual, and when these rules are not obeyed, one is not doing Religio
Romana. One is doing something else which is foreign to the
foundations of Roman piety established by Romulus and Numa, as well
as to the rules established by the Senate and People of Rome - under
the guidance of the Collegium Pontificum - until the end of the Roman
republican period (a period which uses to be taken as a reference in
Nova Roma).

So, you say:
>As a Wiccan High
>Priestess of an Olde Dianic tradition, I do not worship the Roman
>Gods in "strange foreign ways".
It depends. If you use the ROMAN RITUAL RULES to worship Diana, then
you do it in the Roman way. If you do it in a different way, then you
worship Diana in a way which is foreign to the tradition of the city
of Rome. So I ask you, what rites do you use to honour Diana in
your "Dianic" tradition? What type of formulas do you use? What
requests do you make to the Goddess?

As Antonius Corvus Septimius says, it is not enough to worship the
same gods that the Romans worshiped. One must do it in the Roman way,
according to the Roman rules, in order to be considered a
practitioner of the Religio Romana. What was a sacrilege for the
Roman worshipers of Iuppiter might not be a sacrilege for the Greek
worshipers of Zeus, or for the Punic worshipers of Baal; some things
that could be asked to Zeus could not be asked to Iuppiter; some
phenomena interpreted as a manifestation of Baal in Carthage might
not be assigned to Iuppiter in Rome.
And this is in my opinion the information that is lacking in the
website of Nova Roma.

Vale bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Keeping track of candidates
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 06:25:15 +0100

Ave!

My apologies, Gaius Sentius!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Response to Antonius Corvus Septumius
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:45:42 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Sanctaluna3@a... wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I wish to thank you for responding in Pontifex Graecus' place to my
post.

SEPTIMIUS: In no way was I responding in Pontifex Graecus' place. He
is more than capable (absolutley) to reply on his own.

I
> shall attempt to answer all your remarks with clarity and brevity.
>
> You wrote:
> Septimius: As I await Pontifex Graecus' response, I beg your pardon
> for one moment... This (in my eyes) is very clearly stated in Pontifex
> Graecus' post. The Religio Romana is (and should be) observed as its
> own religion. And not continuously lumped together in a melting pot of
> paganism. Which has been done for centuries now.The "strange foreign
> ways"; Unless those persons have studied in depth.. the Religio Romana
> as a indipendant entity. Would more than likely, fabricate the ways of
> the religio, by melding todays view on paganism (as a whole). Which
> seems to be a horrible interpretation of some Celtic religions. These
> Celtic observances that have been distorted through the centuries of
> hate toward pagans, have manifested into what most of non observers of
> these respective religions, believe to be what a "pagan "is.Not
> realizing that a devotee of Zeus (for instance) does have similarities
> with a worshipper of Iuppiter. However, they ARE different in many
> ways.The only similarities are asthetic. The similarities from the
> eyes of a monotheist, are much more than a polytheist sees.
>
> Gaia Cassia:
> This is the text - verbatim - that Graecus wrote, and that I was
seeking his
> answer to:
>
> Graecus wrote:
> Much work is still needed and the proof is that people often get the
wrong
> picture of the religio romana. The proof is that many people still think
> that the religio romana is the same as the greek religion, or
comparing the
> mythology with sacred scriptures, or claiming to worship the roman
gods in
> strange foreign ways (e.g. neopagan approaches like Wicca) while not
> manifesting knowledge about the religio romana. And an example of
this is
> the ammount of spurious priesthood applications (e.g. candidates for the
> priesthood of Bacchus !!!) that we receive in the Collegium
Pontificum. Your
> update of the priesthoods page is a good step, but it is not enough.
People
> must, first of all, know what the religio is, i.e. the cult of the roman
> gods according to the traditional prescriptions established by
Romulus and
> Numa and kept throughout the roman timeline up to the end of the 4th
century
> AD. And maybe a change of statute of the foreign cults is also required,
> including their removal from the official priesthood page (with the sole
> exception of cults "adopted" into the official pantheon by
consultation of
> the Sibylline Books, such as Apollo, Aesculapius, Demeter-Ceres and
Magna
> Mater).
>
> Why you take Pontifex Graecus' quote and use it out of context is not

> clear.

SEPTIMIUS: Just expanded on it.

Also, you seem to feel passionately about the "Celtic" issue,

SEPTIMIUS: The Celtic "issue" was used to make my point on how
blending Roman gods with others, can change the way perform our
rites.And observe our festivals. This is not to say that its wrong for
everyone to do (DISCLAIMER FOR THE FAINT OF HEART).But I tend to think
there is a point where we should stop diluting one religion to pasify
another (or other people).

which
> perhaps you should address more lucidly to him, since I did not
address that
> at all.

SEPTIMIUS: Believe me, Pontifex Graecus knows where I stand on the
Religio Romana.

> I did write:
> I can only conclude that Antonius Gryllus Graecus means that non-NR
> members think that Wiccans "�worship the Roman Gods in Strange foreign
> ways, etc."
>
> You then responded:
> Septimius: Wiccans that observe the Religio Romana? In the pagan
> world.. that would be like a Jewish person believing in Ala ( or
> incorporating the Koran into the Torah[forgive the bluntness of my
> analogy]). Yes, they belive in one god. But are still worlds apart in
> observance, as well as dogma.
>
> Gaia Cassia:
> Since there are people from all faiths in NR that observe the
Religio Romana,
> your attempt at sarcasm seems out of place. I would direct you to The
> Virtues page, and remind you that Veritas should not be replaced with
> rudeness.

SEPTIMIUS: The virtues page? Sorry, the virtues are in my heart.Not on
a web site. Rude? I prefer forward.. or Honest..

>
> You then inquired:
> Septimius: Please enlighten me as to this " Old Dianic tradition" .
> It has nothing to do with Diana, does it? And if so, why is it Wiccan?
> Maybe MY interpretation of Wiccan is of... So, forgive my ignorrance
> on this matter.
>
> Gaia Cassia: Please realize that anytime the word "Dianic" is
mentioned, it
> automatically results in a "knee-jerk" type of response from some
people.
> This branch of Wicca (31 years old now) has been well-documented
elsewhere
> and I would encourage you seek the answer yourself in whatever
scholarly
> approach
> you practice.

SEPTIMIUS: Sharing is not on the virtues page? Maybe we should put it
there.

>
> You then asked:
> Septimius: Really? then, how do you worship our gods. And continue to
> worship in your tradition?
>
> Gaia Cassia:
> I practice my personal faith as others do in NR.

SEPTIMIUS: It was a question, not to be insulted by.. I would like to
know what your thoughts on your beliefs are, since I do not know of
them.It is NOT meant in any other way.

>
> You then asked:
> Septimius: Where do you find the information on Wiccans? And the
> rituals from the ancestors of that form of observance?
>
> Gaia Cassia: You don't need me to provide a methodology on scholarly
> approach, I'm sure.

SEPTIMIUS: Again, you assume too much of me. Unlike others. I admit
when I actually do not know something. Therefore, I ask.

>
> And finally, from you:
> Septimius: The blurring must not continue. We've angered them once.And
> look where it brought us. Each "pagan" faith has its own life
> (respectively),. And so, we must treat them as such. As our spiritual
> ancestors prayed at the gates of the city we were about to enter ( not
> to anger those peoples' gods),We should respect eachothers' ways.
> You make a heart felt assumption, Gaia Cassia.. But, as I will give
> thought to your questions. I ask you to look over what I have written
> as well.
>
> Gaia Cassia: Your call for "no" blurring sounds a bit like Hitler's
cry for
> "racial purity".

SEPTIMIUS: Your use of hitler is much like what he used in turn,
against the Jewish people. Dehumanization leads to ease of
discrimination and intollerance. No, in fact that is MY way of
worshipping MY gods.I do not impose my beliefs on others.. That would
be quite ignorrant of me.

I note that on the Religio Romana page the Asatru Folk
> Assembly is listed as a link. Perhaps this is where your true
interests do
> lie.

SEPTIMIUS: Incorrect, as I do not impose on others, the way I
PERSONALLY worship my gods, and celebrate their festivals.

The "racialist" of the Asatru broke from the "universalist" Asatru some
> time ago (making the AFA and the Troth-affiliate two separate views of
> Asatru)--and perhaps you might like to seek them out (They appear to be
> studying Romana in one of their tribes in California.).
> The Declaration of NR states: "Citizenship is NP is open to people
of all
> nationalities and races. The express purpose of our nation is to
promote
> international understanding and cooperation through the preservation
of our
> common Classical foundation, and to breathe new life and honor into all
> Western Civilization through the restoration of ancient Piety,
Virtue, and
> Civilitas." Feb, '98
> ---this is why I joined NR.

SEPTIMIUS: Very good! I agree! Unfortunately, you assumed what I meant
was against that. No matter, we all assume.

>
> I do thank you again for sharing your views with me, it's good to
meet others
> in NR that are willing to share openly, without thought to any "hidden
> agenda".

SEPTIMIUS: Yes, very true.. What is interesting though, I have made up
front and honest questions.. While others assume that I am trying to
hurt them.When someone displaces their intention on others. It seems
very obvious to the rest of us with VERITAS.

Te cura,
A. Corvus Septimius Semper Fidelis


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Candidate T. Apollonius Cicatrix
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:09:17 -0000

Ave Candidate T. Apollonius Cicatrix,

You Wrote:

> As two of my fratres already stated, the main reason
> for keeping the Nova Roma Europe list restricted is
> that I didn't want to create another main list.

Septimius: There is only one main list. There wouldnt be another one,
simply because one doesnt negate the existance of the other.

It was
> intended to be alist to bring the European cives more
> closely together and to arrange meetings in Europe.

Septimius: This means that the rest of us should not join (at least
in spirit) in the joy of the meetings?

It
> is of course nice to have also the opinions from
> non-European cives, but as I said, I don't think we
> need another main list.

Septimius: Point-Counterpoint.

A second reason, but not as
> important as the first one, is this: in the past
> months since I created this list, no one non-European
> civis has requested to join, and with the upcoming
> elections I have received already three requests from
> non-European cives. This seems to me like an attempt
> to make some more propaganda,

Septimius: Why assume? Not all of us are out for blood (if I may be so
bold).

and not to bring new
> ideas to our group (sorry if I'm wrong, but this is
> how I feel about it).

Septimius: And you are certainly entitled to it, candidate:)

>
> Anyway, when the poll on letting non-Europeans join
> our list is concluded, we'll see what to do.

Septimius: I would encourage this to happen, at least let the
magistrates enter.And finally, wouldnt you want more participation on
a mailing list, when its purpose is to bring NR closer together?

Thank you for your time. And bona fortuna!

vale bene, Septimius


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Candidate T. Apollonius Cicatrix
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:18:55 -0000

> DRACO: I can't see any reason why non-Europeans would
> not be welcome to join the list, since we don't have anything to
hide there,

SEPTIMIUS: No one said that there was something to hide.Personally,
I enjoy being on the Hispania, Argentina, and the Italia provincial
lists. It interests me what potential we have to bring this culture
even closer.

> DRACO:but some of the listmembers are afraid that opening it up
might simply turn
> it into a second main list, and certainly, during election time, a
> propaganda forum to harvest more votes from unsuspecting victims :).

SEPTIMIUS: Finny that YOU should grin at this, Draco. :)

And,
> kindly allow me to backfire a question at you: why would you join
that list?

SEPTIMIUS: As I have stated before, Just to have more of a cohiesive
feel to Nova Roma.

Te cura, A. Corvus Septimius


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Co-officiality of Latin
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	26 Nov 2001 07:35:12 -0200

On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 01:07, Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> Salve;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Claudius Salix Davianus [mailto:davius_sanctex@--------]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 7:17 AM
> >
> > Four measures for encouragement in the use of Latin:
> >
> > 1) Actually in this list every language is allowed with
> > the condition that it would be accompanied with an
> > English translation. If also messages only in Latin
> > language or with a Latin translation are allowed this
> > would encourage many citizens to learn Latin. Of
> > course most of citizens will continue using English,
> > but this gives equal status to Latin and English.
>
> A laudible goal, and one with which I agree in principle, but which is
> unfortunately not practical. The entire reason for requiring English
> translations of non-English posts here is so that such posts will be
> intelligible and thus encourage conversation. The vast majority of our cives
> speak English, and as this list is intended to foster communication, English
> is the necessary medium to accomplish that purpose.
>
Salve,

in this election time, I must remember that the need for an english
translation is a measure that was taken by the actual Curatrix Sermonem.
I have the intention, if elected, to remove this rule. Everybody should
be able to post here in the language he thinks is more appropriate to
his message. English for wide comprehension, latin in order to encourage
its use, others because it could be easier for him to express finely his
ideas.
The SC on language policies leaves the ruling to the Curator Sermonem.
Only the official messages have to be in English/Latin.

> While Latin should and does enjoy a special place within our society (as
> recently established by the Senatus Consultum on language policy), I think
> its fair to say that far, far more people don't understand Latin than do
> (myself included!).
>
> Indeed; many people come to Nova Roma specifically with the intention of
> learning Latin! If someone comes here looking to learn a language, it hardly
> seems fair to hit them with posts in the very language that they came to
> learn.
>
> > 2) We must finish completely translation of the official
> > web-page. (Domna Claudia Auspicata has been making
> > an excellent work in this respect).
>
> Absolutely. I would love to see this project completed as soon as possible!
>
> > 3) Give additional points to:
> > a) Citizens that don't know Latin, if they learn it.
> > b) Citizens that know Latin, if they use it.
>
> I'm not sure how this would be enactable. At what point do you declare
> someone has "learned" latin? Give them a test? What if the people that "know
> Latin" use it poorly? Is there a grading system? (If so, who does the
> grading?) Do they have to make entire posts in the language, or merely use
> technical terms within non-Latin posts?
>

I think it sould be entire posts, and yes learning/using latin shows
commitment to NR and could be counted for century points (at least more
than simple time in NR).

Valete,

Manius Villius Limitanus

> > 4) Unification of technological terminology (terms
> > such as: newsgroup, email, electronic, website .)
> > in order that person that now are using different
> > expressions agree in a normalized Latin form. For
> > this proposition we can create an official organism
> > of linguistic normalization.
>
> There actually is already an organization that does this. I can't at the
> moment remember the name or web site address, but I know it's out there.
> Something like the "Living Latin Association" or something... Hmmm... maybe
> someone in our Sodalitas Latinitas can help out here?
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: [ReligioRomana] Religious discussion...
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:21:53 -0000

Salvete Cassi Pontifex Maxime et al

Cassius:
> The debate between Graecus and myself is a bit more complex than the
thread which Septimius has begun. Pontiff Graecus and I share a
> desire to revive the Roman state religion as accurately as possible. I
believe we are both equally committed to rebuilding the State
> Priesthoods - and reconstructing the family household worship which was
the very foundation of the Relgio for the Roman people.
Exactly.

> Our other discussion focuses on the 'rest' of ancient religion. Graecus
wishes Nova Roma to manifest only the capitoline State religion as
> practiced in Republican Italy, while I am very enthused about rebuilding
the Provincial religions as well. In my belief the syncretistic nature of
> the Religio Romana is a great strength.
Here I must correct you slightly =).
I want to rebuild the Provincial Religio Romana as well. Nevertheless, this
Provincial Religio Romana was nothing but a subset of the Religio Romana
practiced in the city of Rome. I.e. The OFFICIAL Gods, OFFICIAL "Religio"
and OFFICIAL priests of the Provinciae were the same or a subset of those in
the city of Rome, and this is what I defend that should be kept in Nova
Roma. I just don't want people to forget that Provincial cults that did not
fall into the OFFICIAL "Religio" were relegated to the PRIVATE domain, just
as in the city of Rome. In this way, I accept that citizens in the several
provinciae may have their own private cultus of local deities, just like the
private cultus in Rome was diverse (more true for the Plebeians than for the
Patricians). But when we speak about OFFICIAL PRIESTHOOD it is a totally
different matter. The STATE should not recognise OFFICIAL PRIESTS dedicated
to local deities, just as it was not done in the ancient Roman Empire.
OFFICIAL priesthoods of the state in the Provinciae were - like in Rome -
Pontifices, Flamines and Augurs. They were not Sacerdotes of Epona, or of
any local deity. This does not mean that the official priests did not offer
sacrifice to these deities at some occasions, namely provincial festivities.
It just means that an official priest must be firstly and foremost a priest
of the Roman Gods, of the Roman State Religion, not of the local "private"
Religion. If someone in the Provinciae wants to be more dedicated to the
local gods, let him be. But please don't recognise him as a priest of Roman
state, for that was never the practice of our ancestors, a practice that was
able to keep many traditional aspects of the Religio Romana until the reign
of Theodosius.

> It seems to me that the ancient Provincial (foreign) religions can provide
Nova Roma with as wide much wider public appeal, and also rebuild
> the international status of the Religio in the most historical way. Nova
Roma is after all a worldwide community encompassing many
> Provinciae.
And it can create a too big diversity and kill the religious focus of Nova
Roma as the heir of the RELIGIO ROMANA - I repeat: ROMANA. Again, let the
Provinciae have their local Gods, but let the Roman STATE keep the Gods of
Romulus, Numa (and the other Gods adopted OFFICIALLY and by means of the
traditional "adoption" procedures) as the OFFICIAL ROMAN PANTHEON. Let the
priests of these gods be officially recognised as priests of the Roman State
and no others. The others should remain treated as "private" priesthoods
with no connection with the State other than the respect for the law (which
includes the respect for the official religion).

> A related situation still being discussed is that in antiquity the Roman
state had little control over the Provincial cults. While worship was
> integrated in many ways the administration of the various cults was not.
In my opinion this is not accurate, it deserves a little - yet important -
clarification. The Roman state HAD CONTROL over the OFFICIAL provincial
cults (e.g. Iuppiter Optimus Maximus), while it had little control over the
UNOFFICIAL provincial cults.

> I personally feel that any Provincial cults manifested within Nova Roma
(and we already do have some!) must have at least some
> administrative connections with the State. This would not only ensure
official status and quality, but it may be necessary on a legal level if the
> Religio incorporates as a 'legal' church so that our clergy can have legal
ministerial status and have the same rights as the priesthoods of
> other legal religions enjoy.
Then we are in trouble. We have thousands of gods and cults variations to
represent, and we have not yet filled the official roman priesthoods such as
the Flamines, Augurs, Pontifices, Septemviri Epulones, Fetiales,
Quindecemviri Sacris Faciundis, Vestals, Fratres Arvales, Sodales Titii,
Luperci, Salii, etc. If we move to mix everything in one pot, then the
Religio Romana will loose its character and will be engulfed and dissolved
into the thousands of foreign gods and cults. Like this we are surely not
respecting the will of Romulus and Numa, the memory of the ancient Roman
State and we are seriously killing our right to claim to be heirs of the
"Religio" of the city of Rome.

"Sua cuique civitati religio [...] est, nostra nobis"
"To each city its religion, to our city [of Rome] our religion"
Cicero, Ad Flaccum 28.69

> There has been a good deal of discussion regarding this. The most
*accurate* way to do it would be to place Provincial cults under the
> auspices of the Provinciae themselves. While I like the idea I do not
believe we have enough people to make it work just now.
Cassi, but we don't have to make it work. The Collegium Pontificum of Nova
Roma must only be concerned with the "religio romana". If the citizens of a
provincia want to offer to their deities privately, let them do it. If a
provincial governor wants to offer to the local deities fine, though he
should remember that the main pantheon for provincial worship must
necessarily be the OFFICIAL ROMAN pantheon. It is up to the Senate to guide
the governorns in this and other tasks of their competence.

> Another idea is
> to expand the role of the 'Quindecimviri Sacris Faciundis' priesthood,
which supervised *some* foreign cults but not all. (They supervised only
> the cults that had been added under the direction of the Sibylline Books.)
I agree with this measure. The Quindecemviri should supervise the foreign
gods that were officially adopted into the official roman pantheon: Apollo,
Aesculapius, Demeter (as Ceres), Magna Mater (Cybele), Hercules, etc.

> The debate is likely to continue for some time, so hopefully some of the
discussion on the subject can continue *after* the crucial current vote
> (please vote, people!) and the elections. (Not that I believe the topic
won't blow up and take over the main list with heated argument!) (sigh)
> As to Wicca and other 'modern' pagan paths, nobody has suggested formally
incorporating them in Nova Roma. We do, of course, have a
> good many Citizens who come from such backgrounds, since those are the
only paths which have been available for decades. These are
> paths which definitely fall into the realm of "personal religion." As
such, no one has to fear that they will be blended with the public Religio
> Romana... but of course our Citizens who practice these systems should be
accorded the respect that we have agreed to grant *all* Citizens
> no matter what their personal religious path.
I agree.

Valete bene
Graecus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Religious discussion 2 (long)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:12:12 EST

In a message dated 11/26/01 9:22:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
amg@-------- writes:

> > Our other discussion focuses on the 'rest' of ancient religion. Graecus
> wishes Nova Roma to manifest only the capitoline State religion as
> > practiced in Republican Italy, while I am very enthused about rebuilding
> the Provincial religions as well. In my belief the syncretistic nature of
> > the Religio Romana is a great strength.

>Graecus:
> Here I must correct you slightly =).
> I want to rebuild the Provincial Religio Romana as well. Nevertheless, this
> Provincial Religio Romana was nothing but a subset of the Religio Romana
> practiced in the city of Rome. I.e. The OFFICIAL Gods, OFFICIAL "Religio"
> and OFFICIAL priests of the Provinciae were the same or a subset of those
> in the city of Rome, and this is what I defend that should be kept in Nova
> Roma. I just don't want people to forget that Provincial cults that did not
> fall into the OFFICIAL "Religio" were relegated to the PRIVATE domain, just
> as in the city of Rome. In this way, I accept that citizens in the several
> provinciae may have their own private cultus of local deities, just like
> the private cultus in Rome was diverse (more true for the Plebeians than
> for the Patricians). But when we speak about OFFICIAL PRIESTHOOD it is a
> totally different matter. The STATE should not recognise OFFICIAL PRIESTS
> dedicated to local deities, just as it was not done in the ancient Roman
> Empire. OFFICIAL priesthoods of the state in the Provinciae were - like in
> Rome - Pontifices, Flamines and Augurs. They were not Sacerdotes of Epona,
> or of any local deity. This does not mean that the official priests did not
> offer sacrifice to these deities at some occasions, namely provincial
> festivities. It just means that an official priest must be firstly and
> foremost a priest of the Roman Gods, of the Roman State Religion, not of
> the local "private" Religion. If someone in the Provinciae wants to be more
> dedicated to the local gods, let him be. But please don't recognise him as
> a priest of Roman state, for that was never the practice of our ancestors,
> a practice that was able to keep many traditional aspects of the Religio
> Romana until the reign of Theodosius.

Cassius:
I hate to disagree with you Graecus, but I do. While the various provincial
religions were not a part of the official state cult, they certainly legally
a major part of public life in the Roman world. The 'foreign' cults, while
not overseen by the Collegium Pontificum as a state cult were certainly part
of public Roman civilization.

These were not small 'private' cults practiced in obscurity in people's
homes... they were major religions which had their own public temples and
public priesthood. Often these 'foreign' cults were far larger than the
practice of the Religio Romana itself in places such as Britain and Egypt.

While the main duty of the Collegium Pontifiucm is to manifest the Roman
state religion, there is no way we can prevent the Provincial religions from
being manifested in public among our Citizens. In my opinion we cannot ignore
this. Also, when I helped to create Nova Roma it was my full intent that
these religions would be present in the public sphere. The "Declaration of
Roman Religion" was written specifically to incorporate these 'foreign'
religions.

> >>Cassius:
> > It seems to me that the ancient Provincial (foreign) religions can
> provide Nova Roma with as wide much wider public appeal, and also rebuild
> > the international status of the Religio in the most historical way. Nova
> Roma is after all a worldwide community encompassing many
> > Provinciae.

>Graecus:
> And it can create a too big diversity and kill the religious focus of Nova
> Roma as the heir of the RELIGIO ROMANA - I repeat: ROMANA.

Cassius:
Graecus, could you possibly not keep shouting in capital letters? It does not
help you get your point across.

Graecus:
Again, let the Provinciae have their local Gods, but let the Roman STATE keep
the
> Gods of Romulus, Numa (and the other Gods adopted OFFICIALLY and by means of
> the traditional "adoption" procedures) as the OFFICIAL ROMAN PANTHEON. Let
> the priests of these gods be officially recognised as priests of the Roman
> State and no others. The others should remain treated as "private"
> priesthoods with no connection with the State other than the respect for
> the law (which includes the respect for the official religion).

Cassius:
(sigh) Yes, let's ignore 70% of the pagan religion that was practiced
throughout the ancient Roman world, by millions of *Romans*, and focus
exclusively on one restricted aspect and period of Roman life. That way we
can make sure that Nova Roma cannot draw interest from the majority of Pagans
(who find their way here through other paths). That way we can ensure that
our Provinciae are not represented. That way we can make absolutely certain
that deities that were worshipped for centuries as part of Roman civilization
can *never* be restored to the Roman world as they were in antiquity.

> >>Cassius:
> > A related situation still being discussed is that in antiquity the Roman
> state had little control over the Provincial cults. While worship was
> > integrated in many ways the administration of the various cults was not.
>

Graecus:
In my opinion this is not accurate, it deserves a little - yet important -
clarification.
The Roman state HAD CONTROL over the OFFICIAL provincial cults (e.g. Iuppiter

> Optimus Maximus), while it had little control over the UNOFFICIAL provincial
> cults.

Cassius:
This is exactly what I said. The Collegium Pontificum and other State
Priesthoods had little control over the Provincial cults. However the
Provincial cults and the State priesthood were *fully* intermingled in the
everyday world of the people. Citizens in Roma Antiqua had the opportunity to
*publicly* worship in a Festival of Serapis in the morning, and then
participate in a public festival to Jupiter the same afternoon if they
wished. (And if the sacred days happened to coincide, of course.)

Under what you are proposing this could not happen - you wish only the State
cult to be present. Not only is that unhistorical, it is also bad for Nova
Roma, as it would make it impossible for us to draw people from other
religions or to form the traditional syncretistic bonds that Roma Antiqua had
with other cultures.

> >>Cassius:
> > I personally feel that any Provincial cults manifested within Nova Roma
> (and we already do have some!) must have at least some
> > administrative connections with the State. This would not only ensure
> official status and quality, but it may be necessary on a legal level if
> the
> > Religio incorporates as a 'legal' church so that our clergy can have
> legal ministerial status and have the same rights as the priesthoods of
> > other legal religions enjoy.

Graecus:
> Then we are in trouble. We have thousands of gods and cults variations to
> represent, and we have not yet filled the official roman priesthoods such
> as the Flamines, Augurs, Pontifices, Septemviri Epulones, Fetiales,
> Quindecemviri Sacris Faciundis, Vestals, Fratres Arvales, Sodales Titii,
> Luperci, Salii, etc. If we move to mix everything in one pot, then the
> Religio Romana will loose its character and will be engulfed and dissolved
> into the thousands of foreign gods and cults.

Cassius:
Nonsense. The foreign cults have already been fully and legally manifested in
Nova Roma since the founding. Have you forgotten that you yourself are a
member of the Mithraic Sodalitas? Do you forget that we have an Isis
Sodalitas already running? Hopefully not as you have been a participant in
that list as well. Not to mention that we have priesthood to Apollo and the
Magna Mater.

The 'foreign cults' have been with us for four years now... and it is obvious
that they have neither disrupted nor diluted the Religio Romana. Quite the
opposite - Nova Roma has been able to provide an official home for folks
looking for organization and structure, something that we excel in and is
sorely lacking in most modern pagan systems.

Truly, Graecus, there is no cause for bigotry or xenophobia. The main effort
of Nova Roma has been, and will always be to the State Religion. I propose
keeping the positions open, and keeping some legal controls so that other
religions are controlled somewhat - not abandoning the Religio in favor of
them. We will actively be working to fill the Flamines, Augurs, Pontifices,
Septemviri Epulones, Fetiales, Quindecemviri Sacris Faciundis, Vestals,
Fratres Arvales, Sodales Titii, Luperci, Salii, etc. We will *not* be out
there putting effort to recruit for the 'foreign cults'.

However, if we have Citizens who are interested in the worship of Mithras,
Isis, the Romano-Celtic deities, etc... I assure you that forbidding all
public worship but the State Religion is not going to make them abandon their
deities and embrace the standard Roman pantheon. Quite the opposite, they'll
leave and go where their spirituality is welcome.

Now, Graecus, I know fully well that your response is "Good riddance! Those
people aren't really ROMAN anyway." My response is that *no one* out there is
really Roman, and that Romanitas is something that must grow over time rather
than be mandated by repressive law. The only thing that will help us is
syncretism.

Graecus:
Like this we are surely not respecting the will of Romulus and Numa, the
memory
> of the ancient Roman State and we are seriously killing our right to claim
> to be heirs of the "Religio" of the city of Rome.
>
> "Sua cuique civitati religio [...] est, nostra nobis"
> "To each city its religion, to our city [of Rome] our religion"
> Cicero, Ad Flaccum 28.69

Cassius:
That is absurd. Quote to me from that atheistic xenophobe Cicero all you wish
- I maintain that our situation is far more related to that of the Pagans of
late antiquity. When *all* pagan religions were under attack, it was
understood that all the ancient Gods and their cults were comrades, joined by
bonds of tradition.

> >>Cassius:
> > There has been a good deal of discussion regarding this. The most
> *accurate* way to do it would be to place Provincial cults under the
> > auspices of the Provinciae themselves. While I like the idea I do not
> believe we have enough people to make it work just now.

>Graecus:
> Cassi, but we don't have to make it work. The Collegium Pontificum of Nova
> Roma must only be concerned with the "religio romana". If the citizens of a
> provincia want to offer to their deities privately, let them do it. If a
> provincial governor wants to offer to the local deities fine, though he
> should remember that the main pantheon for provincial worship must
> necessarily be the OFFICIAL ROMAN pantheon. It is up to the Senate to guide
> the governorns in this and other tasks of their competence.

Cassius:
So you would truly forbid our Citizens to publicly manifest the cults of the
Provinciae? In lands were great temples were raised to gods both 'foreign'
and Roman together, you would now mandate that our Citizens can only worship
in secret? That is not historical and you know it.

> Graecus:
> > Another idea is
> > to expand the role of the 'Quindecimviri Sacris Faciundis' priesthood,
> which supervised *some* foreign cults but not all. (They supervised only
> > the cults that had been added under the direction of the Sibylline
> Books.)
> I agree with this measure. The Quindecemviri should supervise the foreign
> gods that were officially adopted into the official roman pantheon: Apollo,
> Aesculapius, Demeter (as Ceres), Magna Mater (Cybele), Hercules, etc.
>

Cassius:
Again, I do not believe we can ignore the *legal* syncretistic religions of
the Provincia that were a part of public Roman life for centuries. If the
Quindecemviri should only oversee the foreign cults manifested by the
Sibylline Books, then we will have to do something else.

Another alternative might be to have a "Provincial Religions & Priesthoods"
page, and, as discussed before, let each of the Provincia set up its own
local Collegium Pontificum able to approve foreign priesthoods. The members
of those first local Collegiums could be approved by the Nova Roma Senate
rather than the Collegium Pontificum.

That way legal organizational requirements could still be met, you would not
be forced to dirty your hands with religions unworthy of you, the
Quindecemviri would not have to take up unhistorical duties. At least that
way the overall historical traditions of the Roman world could still be
maintained.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:09:06 -0600 (CST)

Salvete Quirites,

We currently have no candidates for Rogator. We need four.
(Caius Puteus Germanicus wanted to run again, but he is currently a
Rogator and therefore cannot).

There are two days remaining during the time that Consul Cassius recommended
for candidates to declare. For those with six months as citizen, but
no political experience yet, I recommend serving as Rogator as an excellent
way to enter Nova Roma politics and to get acquainted with other magistrates
you'll be working with.

Valete, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curator Araneum et Senator
Candidate for Consul MMDCCLV
http://www.konoko.net/~haase/


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: [CollegiumPontificum] Religious discussion 2 (long)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:10:47 -0000

Salve Cassi Pontifex Maxime

Firstly, I'd like to state that when I use capital letters it is not to
indicate shouting. It is to emphasize the words which I think are more
important.
Secondly, It seems that you have misunderstood all of what I said. My
definition of "public" is simply "that which belongs to the State as a whole
and is managed by the state administration". It is with this word that the
state cult of the Rome is named in literature. I've not said that the
provincial cults should be held "secretely", I only said that the provincial
cults should not be managed by the state and that there should be no
official priesthoods recognised as being part of the state administration. I
think that this makes the bulk of your answer nonsense as you thought that I
defended a totally different idea. Nevertheless there are some points I'd
like to answer.

> Cassius:
> Nonsense. The foreign cults have already been fully and legally manifested
in Nova Roma since the founding. Have you forgotten that you
> yourself are a member of the Mithraic Sodalitas? Do you forget that we
have an Isis Sodalitas already running? Hopefully not as you have been
> a participant in that list as well. Not to mention that we have priesthood
to Apollo and the Magna Mater.
Apollo and Magna Mater are managed by the State. As to the Sodalitas of
worshipers of Isis it was decided since the beginning that they would manage
themselves and that the Collegium Pontificum would only supervise it (and
remember that we are in their mailing list because we were invited) in order
to guarantee that it conforms to the Pontifical Law of Nova Roma.

> Truly, Graecus, there is no cause for bigotry or xenophobia. The main
effort of Nova Roma has been, and will always be to the State Religion.
> I propose keeping the positions open, and keeping some legal controls so
that other religions are controlled somewhat - not abandoning the
> Religio in favor of them. We will actively be working to fill the
Flamines, Augurs, Pontifices, Septemviri Epulones, Fetiales, Quindecemviri
> Sacris Faciundis, Vestals, Fratres Arvales, Sodales Titii, Luperci, Salii,
etc. We will *not* be out there putting effort to recruit for the 'foreign
> cults'.
I'm not Xenophobic, I am a Mithraist, have an ineterest on Orphism and I am
a fan of Greek Philosophy. The only thing that separates us is that I know
where the limits of the state religion are and I defend that only the state
religion of the city of Rome should be considered the business of the state
priesthoods. Just as in Roma Antiqua the cults of Isis, Bacchus, Mithras,
etc. were supervised by the Senate, not the Collegium Pontificum.

> Now, Graecus, I know fully well that your response is "Good riddance!
Those people aren't really ROMAN anyway." My response is that *no
> one* out there is really Roman, and that Romanitas is something that must
grow over time rather than be mandated by repressive law. The
> only thing that will help us is syncretism.
I did not say that. I only said that in order to show people what Romanitas
is, the state should give the example.

> Cassius:
> That is absurd. Quote to me from that atheistic xenophobe Cicero all you
wish - I maintain that our situation is far more related to that of the
> Pagans of late antiquity. When *all* pagan religions were under attack, it
was understood that all the ancient Gods and their cults were
> comrades, joined by bonds of tradition.
That "xenophoby" as you call it was the reason why the cults of the majority
of the native peoples of the provinciae were respected by the roman
conquerors. Cicero was not a xenophobe, his sentence would surely be agreed
by a Greek, Celtic, Punic, Jew, Egyptian, etc. He was just trying to define
the religio of the city of Rome, not attacking the religiones of the foreign
peoples. Besides, Cicero was a fan of Greek Philosophy and friend with many
Greeks. How does that make him a "xenophobe"?

> Another alternative might be to have a "Provincial Religions &
Priesthoods" page, and, as discussed before, let each of the Provincia set
up
> its own local Collegium Pontificum able to approve foreign priesthoods.
The members of those first local Collegiums could be approved by the
> Nova Roma Senate rather than the Collegium Pontificum.
> That way legal organizational requirements could still be met, you would
not be forced to dirty your hands with religions unworthy of you, the
> Quindecemviri would not have to take up unhistorical duties. At least that
way the overall historical traditions of the Roman world could still be
> maintained.
Cassi, even when the Senate agreed to ALLOW the cult of Isis in Rome, the
traditional priesthoods continued to be THE priesthoods of the state. The
many foreign cults were allowed due to population diversity in the Empire
were usually self-administrated and supported by their worshipers, not the
state.

Valete,
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Co-officiality of Latin
From:	"CJ Sitter" <otto_von_sitter@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:46:34 -0000

The idea of having Latin as the official language of NR is a good
one, but, as you suggest, it is also necessary for the Latin text to
be accompanied with an English translation. I do plan on learning
Latin in 2004 (my elective), but only one semester of Latin I. I
might be able to have a limited understanding of Latin by then, but I
probably still won't be able to read most of the stuff written in
Latin.

--- In novaroma@--------, "Claudius Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@t...>
wrote:
> Salvete cari cives Novae Romae:
>
> Four measures for encouragement in the use of Latin:
>
>
> 1) Actually in this list every language is allowed with
>
> the condition that it would be accompanied with an
>
> English translation. If also messages only in Latin
>
> language or with a Latin translation are allowed this
>
> would encourage many citizens to learn Latin. Of
>
> course most of citizens will continue using English,
>
> but this gives equal status to Latin and English.
>
>
>
> 2) We must finish completely translation of the official
>
> web-page. (Domna Claudia Auspicata has been making
>
> an excellent work in this respect).
>
>
>
> 3) Give additional points to:
>
> a) Citizens that don't know Latin, if they learn it.
>
> b) Citizens that know Latin, if they use it.
>
>
>
> 4) Unification of technological terminology (terms
>
> such as: newsgroup, email, electronic, website .)
>
> in order that person that now are using different
>
> expressions agree in a normalized Latin form. For
>
> this proposition we can create an official organism
>
> of linguistic normalization.
>
>
>
> Claudius Salix Davianus
>
> Scriba ad Latinitatem Provinciae Hispaniae
>
> ___________________________________________
>
> LATINA VERSIO
>
> Provisiones quattuor ad promotini usus latinae linguae:
>
>
>
> 1) Praesenter in hoc foro omnes linguae sinuntur si cum
>
> translatione anglicae linguae adsunt. Sed etiam si missivae
>
> unice latine scriptae sinuntur seu cum Latina translatione,
>
> sic damus statum aequalem latinae linguae anglicaeque
>
> linguae.
>
>
>
> 2) Nobis oportet omnino finire translationem officialis web-loci.
>
> (Domna Claudia Auspicata magnificam laborem fecit in his rebus).
>
>
>
> 3) Dentur puncta additionalia:
>
> a) Civibus ingnorantibus linguae latinae, si eam discunt.
>
> b) Civibus haud ignorantibus linguae latinae, si ea utantur.
>
>
>
> 4) Harmonizare nomina technica (nomina tamquam:
>
> newsgroup, email, electronic, website .). Proposito
>
> huic creari potest consilium officiale "linguarum harmonizationis".
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Correction on T. Apollonius
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:15:57 -0800

Ave,

I actually asked the candidate to join the Nova Roma Europe list well
over 3-4 months ago, when Sextus Apollonius and Marcus Apollonius
resigned from Nova Roma. I was told the list was for Europe and only
those non Europeans who are coming to Europe may join. It has seemed
that has function has changed to a close list. My question is why? I
think lists should be open to all Nova Romans. No other provincia list
is closed, I see no reason why Nova Roma Europe list should be closed,
especially to elected magistrates, it hinders communication that would
bring our citizens together.

Valete Omnes,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Candidate for Consul

A second reason, but not as
> important as the first one, is this: in the past
> months since I created this list, no one non-European
> civis has requested to join, and with the upcoming
> elections I have received already three requests from
> non-European cives. This seems to me like an attempt
> to make some more propaganda,


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Correction on T. Apollonius
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:57:09 US/Central

Salvete

> I was told the list was for Europe and only those non Europeans who are
> coming to Europe may join. It has seemed that has function has changed
> to a close list. My question is why? I think lists should be open to
> all Nova Romans.

Perhaps they wish to be able to speak frankly about people on the western side
of the Atlantic without causing hard feelings. Similar sentiments were
expressed in support of keeping the Senate's deliberations private. Perhaps
they don't feel that their discussions are particularly germane to the rest of
the Nova Roman world. Perhaps they just want some privacy. Whatever the
reason, it doesn't particularly matter.

If a list is not an official list maintained by the Nova Roman government under
the jurisdiction of the Curator Sermonis or one of the provincial gubernatores--
that is, if it is the initiative of private citizens wishing to establish a
forum for discussion among a select group--then there is no reason to compel
its members to open it to people outside their group. Our other option is to
place restrictions upon our citizens' ability to assemble as they see fit,
which, while historical, is certainly not a preferable option to me.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Correction on T. Apollonius
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:50:23 -0800

Ave,

I understand those possible reasons however the point of my posting is
to correct T. Apollonius. Citizen(s) have asked him to join the list
and were turned down.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

labienus@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete
>
> > I was told the list was for Europe and only those non Europeans who
> are
> > coming to Europe may join. It has seemed that has function has
> changed
> > to a close list. My question is why? I think lists should be open
> to
> > all Nova Romans.
>
> Perhaps they wish to be able to speak frankly about people on the
> western side
> of the Atlantic without causing hard feelings. Similar sentiments
> were
> expressed in support of keeping the Senate's deliberations private.
> Perhaps
> they don't feel that their discussions are particularly germane to the
> rest of
> the Nova Roman world. Perhaps they just want some privacy. Whatever
> the
> reason, it doesn't particularly matter.
>
> If a list is not an official list maintained by the Nova Roman
> government under
> the jurisdiction of the Curator Sermonis or one of the provincial
> gubernatores--
> that is, if it is the initiative of private citizens wishing to
> establish a
> forum for discussion among a select group--then there is no reason to
> compel
> its members to open it to people outside their group. Our other
> option is to
> place restrictions upon our citizens' ability to assemble as they see
> fit,
> which, while historical, is certainly not a preferable option to me.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Correction on T. Apollonius
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:09:13 US/Central

Salve L Corneli

> I understand those possible reasons however the point of my posting is
> to correct T. Apollonius. Citizen(s) have asked him to join the list
> and were turned down.

You corrected his assertion that no non-European had asked to join the list
prior to the elections, asked why the list was closed, and stated your opinion
that all lists should be open to all citizens. The first point is not moot. I
commented on the second and third.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] The NR Europe list
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:57:11 +0100

Salvete omnes,

Well well well... it seems that some around here are trying to grow a small
scandal around a thing as simple as an e-mail list. Instigations,
insinuations and shady questions (with ditto answers) float about. Cives,
the elections have started! <grins widely>

That aside, I wonder what has suddenly become so important about this list.
No non-Europeans were previously interested to join the list, with the
honourable exceptions of Sulla and Limitanus. Let us face it, ladies and
gentlemen: creating suspicion about an email you're not allowed to join in
election time reeks of campaigning (of course, Septimius and Vedius were
quick to notice that I am in a somewhat priviliged and advantaged position,
being a listmember myself -- <another, somewhat mischievous grin>).

But as far as I'm concerned, the list should be opened up. The archives have
little to hide, and no plotting was committed against the Eeeevil Oligarchs
of Nova Roma, and not in the least by yours truly. On that list, however, I
have had the delight of discussing matters such as Roman wine and a
pan-European meeting, while the ML was wrapped up in a turban.

Valete bene!
S. Apollonius Draco

<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: What is a Curator differium?
From:	"Fortunatus" <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:46:23 -0000

Salvete Claudi Salix omnesque

> My Apologies citizens, I am a bad reader of the main list,
> what is exactly a "curator differium"? What type of magistrature is?
> What about his/her attributions?

The Curator Differum is a member of the Vigintisexviri. His duty is
to produce, publish, and distribute the Eagle, Nova Roma's official
news letter.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rogatores Needed.
From:	"Fortunatus" <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:05:19 -0000

Salvete Cives Novae Romae

> There are two days remaining during the time that Consul Cassius
> recommended for candidates to declare. For those with six months
> as citizen, but no political experience yet, I recommend serving as
> Rogator as an excellent way to enter Nova Roma politics and to get
> acquainted with other magistrates you'll be working with.

Allow me to second this. My first position within Nova Roma was as a
rogator, and the experience it gave me with the trina comitia
(Comitia Centuriata, Comitia Populi Tributa, Comitia Plebis Tributa)
and voting was invaluable. Also, the position involves working with
the tribuni plebis, consules, and censores, exposing you to the
workings of nearly all of Nova Roma's government.

If you're thinking about serving as a scriba or accensus, becoming a
rogator is an excellent alternate route. It's also an immensely
important magistracy, as none of the trina comitia can run without
rogatores! And, there's no reason you can't serve as a scriba at the
same time, since a rogator's workload is sporadic and fairly light.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rogatores Needed.
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:42:23 -0800 (PST)

I will volunteer to run as a Rogator for this next term.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:45:17 -0500

Salvete cives et amici,

I come before the citizens of Nova Roma once again to declare my candidacy
for Rogator. I have decided to run for Rogator along with Aediles Curules
because of the lack of candidates for this position.

This is a very important position that must be filled in order for Nova Roma
to run properly. Even though a Rogator may not be the biggest most powerful
office to hold this makes it no less important. Because of this I would be
honoured to serve the res publica as a Rogator for next year.

Valete,

"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

(( Please visit my campaign website at
http://www.virtue.nu/amclaudius/index.htm ))

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	[novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy for Rogator
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:10:15 -0500

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Omnibus Civibus Salutem Plurimam Dictit,
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus do stand before the Gods and People of Nova
Roma and hereby announce my intention to stand for the office of
Rogator. I do this, following in the footsteps of Amulius Cladius Petrus
who is also running for two offices, to ensure the Res Publica is not
left without these vital magistrates. Due to the nature of the office of
Rogator, I believe that should I be elected to both Rogator and
Quaestor, I would not have any conflict in executing the
responsibilities of either. I would be greatly honored if the citizens
of Nova Roma would allow me to serve them in this capacity.
Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
Candidate for Quaestor and Rogator

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:19:47 -0600 (CST)

Salvete Quirites,

I thank all who have stepped forward to run as candidates for Rogator.

The position has been difficult to fill in the past due to a restriction
on running for other offices while serving as Rogator. Currently, under
the Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus, no Rogator may run for any office while
serving as Rogator.

If elected Consul, I will attempt to modify this according to a proposal
of M. Scribonius Curio Britannicus: each Comitia shall have two Rogatores,
and a Rogator may stand for office in either of the other two Comitia where
he does not serve as Rogator. For example, the two Rogatores who count
votes in the Comitia Centuriata would be able to run for those offices
that are elected by Tribes.

As soon as possible next year, I will put this legislation before the
Comitia, allowing those who will be Rogators in 2755 to run for office
in 2756.

Valete, M. Octavius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curator Araneum et Senator
Candidate for Consul MMDCCLV
http://www.konoko.net/~haase/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy for Rogator
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:27:32 -0800 (PST)

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus is a fine outstanding person
whom as you already know, I have served with in the
legions (Army) before. He is an excellent S3 man,
(heh heh) and would make both an excellent Rogator and
Questor.

M. Scipio Africanus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Names of cities
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:41:41 -0500

Salve Gaius Sentius Bruttius,

I believe I can help you out here citizen! I have many names of Roman
controlled cities in the area you described.

Bulla Regia
Thumburbo Maius
Thugga -- Modern city of Dougga
Zama Regia -- Modern city of Zama
Thagaste -- Modern city of Souk Ahras
Crita -- Modern city of Constantine
Cuicul -- Modern city of Dejmila
Stifis -- Modern city of Setif
Volubilis
Madauros -- Modern city of M'Daourouch
Lambaesis -- Modern city of Lambese
Thamugadi -- Modern city of Timgad
Thevestis -- Modern city of Tebessa
Aquae -- Modern city of Baden Baden
Sefetula
Ad Maiores

>Craig Stevenson at gaiussentius@-------- wrote:
>
> I am looking for names of big or largish cities in
> Africa, but in certain areas in particular. I am
> looking for the names of any cities below Carthage and
> Hippo Reggius, but above Leptis Magna. If anyone can
> help it would be greatly appreciated.


Subject:	[novaroma] rogator
From:	Michael Loughlin <qccaesar@-------->
Date:	Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:34:09 -0800 (PST)

Ave,
I just have something to put before Nova Roma in
light of my pater's post concerning the need for the
position of Rogator to be filled. I am more than
willing to fill the position if needed. However, I am
also aware of the law requiring citizens to be members
of Nova Roma for a period of at least 3 or 6 months
(the exact number slips my mind off hand). My initial
date of entrance into Nova Roma is 9-25-01. If needed
and the exception can be made I would be more than
willing and happy to serve Nova Roma by serving as a
Rogator.
vale,
Quintus Cornelius Caesar

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1


Subject:	[novaroma] Help with the provincial site of Gallia
From:	"Ianus Minicius Sparsus" <jfernandez50@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:58:58 +0100

Salvete,

I have tried to enter the provincial site of Gallia. Is correct this direction?. http://gallia.novaroma.org/

Furthermore I haven't found its provincial list. Somebody can help me?.

I. Minicius Sparsus
(Hispania)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: [ReligioRomana] Religious discussion...
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	26 Nov 2001 13:33:29 -0200

Salvete,

I would like to know our position on syncretism.
For example is worshipping Amon/Zeus/Baal under the name of Juppiter
fine ?

This could have a great influence in the Provinces were the syncretic
American/African/Christian cults are very common (like here down).

Would you consider those definitively foreign gods as legitimate if they
were worshipped under the name and partially using the rites of the
Roman Gods ?

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 12:21, Antonio Grilo wrote:
> Salvete Cassi Pontifex Maxime et al
>
> Cassius:
> > The debate between Graecus and myself is a bit more complex than the
> thread which Septimius has begun. Pontiff Graecus and I share a
> > desire to revive the Roman state religion as accurately as possible. I
> believe we are both equally committed to rebuilding the State
> > Priesthoods - and reconstructing the family household worship which was
> the very foundation of the Relgio for the Roman people.
> Exactly.
>
> > Our other discussion focuses on the 'rest' of ancient religion. Graecus
> wishes Nova Roma to manifest only the capitoline State religion as
> > practiced in Republican Italy, while I am very enthused about rebuilding
> the Provincial religions as well. In my belief the syncretistic nature of
> > the Religio Romana is a great strength.
> Here I must correct you slightly =).
> I want to rebuild the Provincial Religio Romana as well. Nevertheless, this
> Provincial Religio Romana was nothing but a subset of the Religio Romana
> practiced in the city of Rome. I.e. The OFFICIAL Gods, OFFICIAL "Religio"
> and OFFICIAL priests of the Provinciae were the same or a subset of those in
> the city of Rome, and this is what I defend that should be kept in Nova
> Roma. I just don't want people to forget that Provincial cults that did not
> fall into the OFFICIAL "Religio" were relegated to the PRIVATE domain, just
> as in the city of Rome. In this way, I accept that citizens in the several
> provinciae may have their own private cultus of local deities, just like the
> private cultus in Rome was diverse (more true for the Plebeians than for the
> Patricians). But when we speak about OFFICIAL PRIESTHOOD it is a totally
> different matter. The STATE should not recognise OFFICIAL PRIESTS dedicated
> to local deities, just as it was not done in the ancient Roman Empire.
> OFFICIAL priesthoods of the state in the Provinciae were - like in Rome -
> Pontifices, Flamines and Augurs. They were not Sacerdotes of Epona, or of
> any local deity. This does not mean that the official priests did not offer
> sacrifice to these deities at some occasions, namely provincial festivities.
> It just means that an official priest must be firstly and foremost a priest
> of the Roman Gods, of the Roman State Religion, not of the local "private"
> Religion. If someone in the Provinciae wants to be more dedicated to the
> local gods, let him be. But please don't recognise him as a priest of Roman
> state, for that was never the practice of our ancestors, a practice that was
> able to keep many traditional aspects of the Religio Romana until the reign
> of Theodosius.
>
> > It seems to me that the ancient Provincial (foreign) religions can provide
> Nova Roma with as wide much wider public appeal, and also rebuild
> > the international status of the Religio in the most historical way. Nova
> Roma is after all a worldwide community encompassing many
> > Provinciae.
> And it can create a too big diversity and kill the religious focus of Nova
> Roma as the heir of the RELIGIO ROMANA - I repeat: ROMANA. Again, let the
> Provinciae have their local Gods, but let the Roman STATE keep the Gods of
> Romulus, Numa (and the other Gods adopted OFFICIALLY and by means of the
> traditional "adoption" procedures) as the OFFICIAL ROMAN PANTHEON. Let the
> priests of these gods be officially recognised as priests of the Roman State
> and no others. The others should remain treated as "private" priesthoods
> with no connection with the State other than the respect for the law (which
> includes the respect for the official religion).
>
> > A related situation still being discussed is that in antiquity the Roman
> state had little control over the Provincial cults. While worship was
> > integrated in many ways the administration of the various cults was not.
> In my opinion this is not accurate, it deserves a little - yet important -
> clarification. The Roman state HAD CONTROL over the OFFICIAL provincial
> cults (e.g. Iuppiter Optimus Maximus), while it had little control over the
> UNOFFICIAL provincial cults.
>
> > I personally feel that any Provincial cults manifested within Nova Roma
> (and we already do have some!) must have at least some
> > administrative connections with the State. This would not only ensure
> official status and quality, but it may be necessary on a legal level if the
> > Religio incorporates as a 'legal' church so that our clergy can have legal
> ministerial status and have the same rights as the priesthoods of
> > other legal religions enjoy.
> Then we are in trouble. We have thousands of gods and cults variations to
> represent, and we have not yet filled the official roman priesthoods such as
> the Flamines, Augurs, Pontifices, Septemviri Epulones, Fetiales,
> Quindecemviri Sacris Faciundis, Vestals, Fratres Arvales, Sodales Titii,
> Luperci, Salii, etc. If we move to mix everything in one pot, then the
> Religio Romana will loose its character and will be engulfed and dissolved
> into the thousands of foreign gods and cults. Like this we are surely not
> respecting the will of Romulus and Numa, the memory of the ancient Roman
> State and we are seriously killing our right to claim to be heirs of the
> "Religio" of the city of Rome.
>
> "Sua cuique civitati religio [...] est, nostra nobis"
> "To each city its religion, to our city [of Rome] our religion"
> Cicero, Ad Flaccum 28.69
>
> > There has been a good deal of discussion regarding this. The most
> *accurate* way to do it would be to place Provincial cults under the
> > auspices of the Provinciae themselves. While I like the idea I do not
> believe we have enough people to make it work just now.
> Cassi, but we don't have to make it work. The Collegium Pontificum of Nova
> Roma must only be concerned with the "religio romana". If the citizens of a
> provincia want to offer to their deities privately, let them do it. If a
> provincial governor wants to offer to the local deities fine, though he
> should remember that the main pantheon for provincial worship must
> necessarily be the OFFICIAL ROMAN pantheon. It is up to the Senate to guide
> the governorns in this and other tasks of their competence.
>
> > Another idea is
> > to expand the role of the 'Quindecimviri Sacris Faciundis' priesthood,
> which supervised *some* foreign cults but not all. (They supervised only
> > the cults that had been added under the direction of the Sibylline Books.)
> I agree with this measure. The Quindecemviri should supervise the foreign
> gods that were officially adopted into the official roman pantheon: Apollo,
> Aesculapius, Demeter (as Ceres), Magna Mater (Cybele), Hercules, etc.
>
>
> > The debate is likely to continue for some time, so hopefully some of the
> discussion on the subject can continue *after* the crucial current vote
> > (please vote, people!) and the elections. (Not that I believe the topic
> won't blow up and take over the main list with heated argument!) (sigh)
> > As to Wicca and other 'modern' pagan paths, nobody has suggested formally
> incorporating them in Nova Roma. We do, of course, have a
> > good many Citizens who come from such backgrounds, since those are the
> only paths which have been available for decades. These are
> > paths which definitely fall into the realm of "personal religion." As
> such, no one has to fear that they will be blended with the public Religio
> > Romana... but of course our Citizens who practice these systems should be
> accorded the respect that we have agreed to grant *all* Citizens
> > no matter what their personal religious path.
> I agree.
>
> Valete bene
> Graecus
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Useful Idea for Elections
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:37:39 -0000

Salvete omnes cives.

As a citizen I have also had difficulties following the candidates in
our present elections. The idea of having them all listed in one
place has been helpful but I still feel something lacking, as some
the names listed are not familiar to me. I feel that for citizens
still unfamiliar to Nova Roma a bit more of information (or an easier-
to-understand organisation of the existing data)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to create a folder in our "files"
section called "Candidatures".

It could have several subfolders, one for each post (one for the
tribunes of the plebs, one for the plebeian aediles, et cetera). In
each of these folders those responsible for the list could put a
single text file for each candidate for that magistraure, in which
the candidate stated his or her name, past worthy deeds for Nova Roma
and political program (and perhaps a hyperlink to the private
campaign web site).

These text files are already there, dispersed between the interesting
and profuse discussions of the main list. Of course, if someone
decided to implement this idea, the candidates could post the texts
directly to the person in charge. However, I do not think that
endorsement messages from others would have a place there, as they
would only add to the confusion by increasing the size without adding
information.

Setting this listing up would help me and those like me inmensely, as
it would be not only a way of listing the candidates but also a
comprehensive aid for the voting decision. I would have done it for
myself, but the list -wisely- does not allow members to alter the
files section. I think that it wouldn't be a very difficult task, as
it requires no HTML or JavaScript programming.

Salve Iuppiter Tonans et salve Devotio Hispanica.

P.D.: There is one endorsement message that I have found to be
particularly enlightening and amusing. It is the one that supports
Gnaeus Salix Astur for the magistrature of Tribunus Plebis. It was so
good that I had to sign it so please read it again! ;)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Response to Antonius Corvus Septumius
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:55:36 -0800 (PST)

--- antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Sanctaluna3@a... wrote:
> > Salve,

> > SEPTIMIUS: The Celtic "issue" was used to make my
> point on how
> blending Roman gods with others, can change the way
> perform our
> rites.And observe our festivals. This is not to say
> that its wrong for
> everyone to do (DISCLAIMER FOR THE FAINT OF
> HEART).But I tend to think
> there is a point where we should stop diluting one
> religion to pasify
> another (or other people).

Maximina responds: Because other "foreign" religions
are offered in Nova Roma does not mean a "blending" or
"dilution" in Roman Rites.
My personal religion is Kemet Orthodoxy (Ancient
Egyptian Religion) as practiced by the House of
Netjer,
http://www.kemet.org (if you wish more info).
In fact, the cult of Isis (Aset)[origin: Egyptian] had
quite a large following which included, I believe,
certain emporers. (I would have to check my source as
to which ones, but I believe Augustus was a follower.)
If I am in error here, I apologize beforehand.
Also, the cult of Mithras (orgin: Persian) was quite
popular with Emporers, soldiers, pirates, seamen and
traders of Rome.

Personally, I have no problem with practicing the
rituals ascribed to my religion and supporting Religio
Romana. The fact is, many religions derived much of
their dogma from Egyptian religion which predates
almost every other religion practised in Rome or
Greece. This includes Judaism and Christianity, i.e.
compare the 42 "commandments" of Ancient Egyptian
religion and the 10 of the Judeo-Christian religions.

How does what I practice in my home affect how Roman
rites are practiced? I think you are reaching here to
try to prove a weak point. I see no conflict and can
easily separate the two into two independently
distinct rituals. You may even have seen my avid
support of Religio Romana in the past. We also have
many Christians and Jews who support and encourage
Religio Romana as I do. I dare say, some pratice the
Romana rituals as well.

> > I did write:
> > I can only conclude that Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> means that non-NR
> > members think that Wiccans "�worship the Roman
> Gods in Strange foreign
> > ways, etc."
> >
> > You then responded:
> > Septimius: Wiccans that observe the Religio
> Romana? In the pagan
> > world.. that would be like a Jewish person
> believing in Ala ( or
> > incorporating the Koran into the Torah[forgive the
> bluntness of my
> > analogy]). Yes, they belive in one god. But are
> still worlds apart in
> > observance, as well as dogma.
> >
> > Gaia Cassia:
> > Since there are people from all faiths in NR that
> observe the
> Religio Romana,
> > your attempt at sarcasm seems out of place. I
> would direct you to The
> > Virtues page, and remind you that Veritas should
> not be replaced with
> > rudeness.
>
>
> SEPTIMIUS: The virtues page? Sorry, the virtues are
> in my heart.Not on
> a web site. Rude? I prefer forward.. or Honest..

Maximina responds:

You apparently choose to follow your own set of rules
regarding virtues. Interpretation of virtues can be
preverted by anyone, I think that is why they are
spelled out on the NR website. Rude is Rude by any
standard and in my eyes you are rude and sarcastic in
your replies to Gaia Cassia.
Just because your heart tells you so, doesn't make it
right. A criminal is also guided by his heart and his
heart's desire, but it does not make him virtuous,
popular, right or righteous.
>
Septimius: Please enlighten me as to this " Old
> Dianic tradition" .
> > It has nothing to do with Diana, does it? And if
> so, why is it Wiccan?
> > Maybe MY interpretation of Wiccan is of... So,
> forgive my ignorrance
> > on this matter.
> >
Maximina: I hope you are open enough to re-examine
*your* agenda and perhaps practicing a bit more
tolerance toward other's beliefs.

Vale bene,
Maximina Octavia (Hail Augustus!)

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] The languages of the Roman Empire
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:10:54 +0100

(Enthusiastic translators are needed!)

Salve scholar citizens:

In the Pronviciae Hispaniae we are tempting to make a

survey of all (at least a great number) of languages spoken

during Roman times. For the moment some 80 languages

are included in the project.

For each language, information about his history, alphabet,

inscriptions, and link are included in addition of a linguistic

description of the main features of the language.

Pitifully for the moment all the work is only available in Spanish,

soon it will be also available in English but the enormous work

necessary for this translation persuades us to recruit translators

from Spanish to English (also we have the intention of translate

this vast work to Latin in the future).

This work is availabe at:

http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/

Our provisional list of language include:

1) Celtic Languages (7 languages):
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Celtic/celtic_es.html
Brythonic, Celtiberian, Galatian, Gaulish, Goidelic, Lepontic, Lusitan

2) Anatolian Indoeuropean Languages (6 languages):
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Anatolian/Anatolian_es.html
Carian, Phrygian, Lycian, Lydian, Pisidian, Sidetic

3) Germanic Languages (6 languages):
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Germanic/germanic_es.html
Common Germanic, North Germanic, East Germanic, Elbe Germanic,
Rhin-Wesser Germanic, North Sea Germanic.

4) Greek Languages (7 Languages):
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Greek/greek_es.html
Dorian Greek, Ionic-Attic Greek, Aeolian Greek, Arcadian Greek,
Classical Greek, Hellenistic Greek, Byzantine Greek

5) Egiptian Languages (2 languages)
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Egyptian/egyptian_es.html
Demotic Aegyptian, Coptic

6) Non-indoeuropean Languages of Italia (8 languages)
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Italian/italian_es.html
Etruscan, Retian, Lemnian; Nuragian, Elymian, Sicanian, Ligur,
North Picenian
______________________________________________

7) Italic Languages (7 languages) [under construction]
Classical Latin, Popular Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, Picenian, Sicel
Volscan

8) Balcanic Indoeuropean Languages (10 languages) [under construction]
Armenian, Cimerian, Dacian, Illyrian, Macedonian, Messapic, Phrygian,
Slavic, Venetic

9) Iranian Languages (10 languages) [under construction]
Avestan, Bactrian, Median, Middle Persian, Old Persian, Parthian,
Saka, Sarmatian, Scythian, Sogdian

10) Lybic-Berber Languages (2 languages) [under construction]
Numidian, Old Lybian

11) Semitic Languages (8 languages): [under construction]
Aramaic, Arabic (preclassical), Assyrian, Ethiopic, Hebrew,
Mino-Sabean, Phoenician

12) Non-indoeurpean Iberian languages (3 languages):
Aquitanian (Old Basque), Iberian, Tartessian,

13) Other-Non indoeuropean languages (2 or more languages)
Hunnic, Georgian, ...
_________________________________________

If someone is interested, and know a little Spanish and satisfactorily
English, please pick your favorite languages and email to me:
davius_sanctex@-------- (especify in the Subject Line: linguaeimperii)

Claudius Salix Davianus

_______________________________________________________
�meinon g�r ol�gon orth�s � pol�n kak�s pr�ksai chr�non.
[Praestat exiguum recteque quam multum perperamque tempus agere]

Flavius Claudius Iulianus, imperator romanorum

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:08:34 -0500

Salve,

Under your proposal could a Rogator have the option of switching between
counting votes for the Comitia Centuriata and go over to counting for the
tribes, or vise-versa before an election. Considering an arrangement could
be made with another citizen holding the same office? I have no idea as of
yet what my plans are for the election after this one in 2756. I feel
committed and enthusiastic about running for this office, but under your
proposal would hate to be restricted in what I could possibly run for. It
would be superb if a Rogator could swap with a colleague to allow more
flexibility for future candidates.

Vale,

>Marcus Octavius Germanicus at haase@-------- wrote:
>
> If elected Consul, I will attempt to modify this according to a proposal
> of M. Scribonius Curio Britannicus: each Comitia shall have two Rogatores,
> and a Rogator may stand for office in either of the other two Comitia where
> he does not serve as Rogator. For example, the two Rogatores who count
> votes in the Comitia Centuriata would be able to run for those offices
> that are elected by Tribes.
>
> As soon as possible next year, I will put this legislation before the
> Comitia, allowing those who will be Rogators in 2755 to run for office
> in 2756.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rogatores Needed.
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:50:15 +0100

Ave!

Could you recall your Roman name please? I really am not familiar with the macronational names of our cives. Anyway, I support you volunteering!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] ENDORSEMENT OF HONORABLE TITUS OCTAVIUS PIUS AS QUAESTOR
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:28:38 +0100

Salvete, Quirites!

I want to endorse the candidature of Honorable Titus Octavius Pius as
Quaestor. He has been my Praeco Aranei in Thule Provincia since he became a
citizen. In this capacity he ha built a very good loking and functioning
Thule homepage. He has also served as a very dedicated Consiliarius Thules
in my Consilium Provinciale Thules for some months, until I promoted him to
my Senior Legatus (which also means that he still sits in my Consilium
Provinciale Thules). In this capacity he has been my closest advisor and
acted on my behalf.

Honorable Titus Octavius Pius is very interested in the Roman Republic and
has greatly developed his knowledge in Rome and all things Roman during
these years I have known him. This interest still continues to develope.

Honorable Titus Octavius Pius has taken part in the public discussions on
the main list, where he has shown deep insight and dedication. He has
always, in a foreign language, tried to express him self clearly and in a
intelligent way. An effort that he has succeded in as far as I see it.

My trust in Honorable Titus Octavius Pius is very great and I am sure that
he will be a great Quaestor. I recommend all citizens to vote for him.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule

CANDIDATE FOR CURULE AEDILE 2755

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that doesn't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	[novaroma] Recordatio argentinis - Latin/Spanish/English
From:	danielovi@--------
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:24:56 -0000

Salvete omnes.
Kalendis Decembris Consilium provinciale argentinum nobis erit eodem
loco et eadem hora (14:30). Locus Independencia et Paseo Col�n urbis
Bonariae situs est.
Valete bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis argentinae

Salvete omnes
El pr�ximo s�bado tendremos nuestro pr�ximo encuentro provincial
argentino en el mismo lugar y misma hora (14:30 hs.) en el aula E7 de
la Facultad de Ingenier�a de la UBA Paseo Col�n e Independencia.
Valete bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis argentinae

Salvete omnes
Next Saturday we shall have our next provincial meeting at the same
place and time(14:30 hs.) Ave. Independencia & Paseo Col�n (Faculty
of Engeneering of the University of Buenos Aires. Classroom E7).
Valete bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis argentinae


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:28:14 -0600 (CST)

Salve Amuli Claudi,

> Under your proposal could a Rogator have the option of switching between
> counting votes for the Comitia Centuriata and go over to counting for the
> tribes, or vise-versa before an election. Considering an arrangement could
> be made with another citizen holding the same office?

I think we should allow for that, and, in the proposed law, specify how
much advance notice must be given to the Curator Araneum so that the
email addresses that the Cistae send mail to can be changed. (Each
Comitia has a separate copy of the voting program, in a separate directory,
so such things as the mail destination are easily changed).

> I have no idea as of yet what my plans are for the election after
> this one in 2756. I feel committed and enthusiastic about running
> for this office, but under your proposal would hate to be restricted
> in what I could possibly run for.

Right now, a Rogator can't run for anything. Using M. Scribonius's
proposal, I hope to ease that restriction as much as possible.

Vale,
M. Octavius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curator Araneum et Senator
Candidate for Consul MMDCCLV
http://www.konoko.net/~haase/


Subject:	[novaroma] Useful Idea for Elections
From:	"Javier Augusto Gil-Ruiz Gil-Esparza" <javier_gil_ruiz@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:42:09 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Useful Idea for Elections
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:54:35 -0600 (CST)

Salve,

> As a citizen I have also had difficulties following the candidates in
> our present elections. The idea of having them all listed in one
> place has been helpful but I still feel something lacking, as some
> the names listed are not familiar to me.

Tonight, I will prepare a page on the main website that lists the
candidates, with links to their campaign statements.

Vale,
Octavius
Candidate for Consul.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curator Araneum et Senator
Candidate for Consul MMDCCLV
http://www.konoko.net/~haase/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:51:37 -0500

Salve,

>Marcus Octavius Germanicus at haase@-------- wrote:
>
>> Under your proposal could a Rogator have the option of switching between
>> counting votes for the Comitia Centuriata and go over to counting for the
>> tribes, or vise-versa before an election. Considering an arrangement could
>> be made with another citizen holding the same office?
>
> I think we should allow for that, and, in the proposed law, specify how
> much advance notice must be given to the Curator Araneum so that the
> email addresses that the Cistae send mail to can be changed. (Each
> Comitia has a separate copy of the voting program, in a separate directory,
> so such things as the mail destination are easily changed).

at's good to know. If that is included I think it is a wonderful proposal
that I look forward to having in place if I am elected into this position.
>
> Right now, a Rogator can't run for anything. Using M. Scribonius's
> proposal, I hope to ease that restriction as much as possible.

To tell the truth, I was not aware of these currently strict limitations. I
should of looked into more closely before deciding to run for this position.
Like I said before I have no idea what my plans are for 2576 election wise.
I *may* want to attempt to run for a different position. If the duties of
Rogator limit this capability I could possibly step down a month or so
before November. Of course this is only if your proposal does not pass that
is.

I want all the citizens of Nova Roma to be aware of this when they vote for
me as Rogator. I also encourage any other citizens to run for Rogator for
there can be an alternative option if my conditions are not acceptable to
some.

Although I doubt that Marcus Octavius Germanicus proposal will have any
trouble becoming lex.

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Useful Idea for Elections
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:56:44 -0500

>Marcus Octavius Germanicus at haase@-------- wrote:
>
> Tonight, I will prepare a page on the main website that lists the
> candidates, with links to their campaign statements.

Salve,

Excellent idea, and much needed. When you link me as a candidate for Aediles
Curules could you also provide a link to my campaign website at:

http://www.virtue.nu/amclaudius/index.htm

If you could do this it would be much appreciated.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	[novaroma] Withdrawal of Candidacy for Rogator
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:13:05 -0500

Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Omnibus Civibus Salutem Plurimam Dictit,

Apparently I need to read the Constitution a bit more closely!! I was
unaware of the prohibition of running for Rogator while also running for
another office, and I thank Senator M. Octavius Germanicus for pointing
this fact out to me. Due to this restriction I hereby withdraw my
candidacy for Rogator, and apologize for the error.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
Candidate for Quaestor

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogatores Needed.
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:49:25 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Octavi Germanice.

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> wrote:
> I think we should allow for that, and, in the proposed law, specify
> how
> much advance notice must be given to the Curator Araneum so that the
> email addresses that the Cistae send mail to can be changed. (Each
> Comitia has a separate copy of the voting program, in a separate
> directory,
> so such things as the mail destination are easily changed).
>
> > I have no idea as of yet what my plans are for the election after
> > this one in 2756. I feel committed and enthusiastic about running
> > for this office, but under your proposal would hate to be
> restricted
> > in what I could possibly run for.
>
> Right now, a Rogator can't run for anything. Using M. Scribonius's
> proposal, I hope to ease that restriction as much as possible.

I don't want to be sound like a bastard :-), but it seems to me that
one of our current rogatores is running for two offices. Am I correct?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule.

__________________________________________________
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