Forum Romanum


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Sound Social Judgement
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	10 Dec 2001 23:00:33 -0200

On Mon, 2001-12-10 at 21:30, JusticeCMO wrote:
>
>
> Salve,
>
> >>Just as much as your own system: A new account is placed on previous
> censorship until proven to be a genuine citizen.>>
>
> And what of the members who join our List but never join our nation? We do
> have a fair number of such individuals here. Would you be in favor of them
> remaining moderated indefinitely simply because they are not citizens?
>
> >>If I understand well the system you use: a new account is placed on
> previous censorship for a certain period of time. A real citizen would only
> pass much less time on previous censorship.>>
>
> Since it has, traditionally, been "real" citizens who have caused the need
> for this policy, your plan does not solve the problem. To admit citizens
> with no safeguard also opens the doors to citizens who simply wish to join
> the Main List, post something abusive, and then leave. Under the current
> Policy they do not have the access to do that.
>

A real citizen that does this, can suffer the same penalties as Sokarus
just did. A non-citizen or anonymous citizen could suffer no penalty at
all, so his crimes must be prevented since there is no way to punish
them.

> >>Previous censorship for non-proven-citizen catches the trolls, or reveals
> them in the exact same way as if they were using their own,known account.>>
>
> Your policy would not catch these trolls. If I understand you correctly,
> anyone contacting me and saying "Hi, I am Citizen X", whom I verify is a
> citizen, should not *be* moderated in any way. Therefore your policy would
> allow exactly the abuses the current policy has prevented.
>

No, any one with a registered e-mail in the censors db, should be not
moderated. A citizen which whishes to register a new e-mail, would have
to wait for the censores to check it, and only after being registered by
the censors would he go unmoderated.

> >>This would help the censors to contact the citizens, since often one
> passes from one e-mail to another gradually.>>
>
> As I understand it, if a citizen changes their e-mail address they already
> notify the Censors. However, in this day and age many people have multiple
> accounts and do not *wish* to receive mail on *every* one of them from the
> Censors or from Nova Roma in general.

It seems to me that, usually, citizens wish to receive all NR related
e-mail at the same address, meaning both the ML and the censors mail.

> While I cannot speak for the current
> Censors, I do doubt they would approve of having to track and update every
> known e-mail address of every citizen. Just between Germanicus and myself
> they would need to track and keep current an average of 12 addresses, none
> of which (except our "Nova Roman" ones has *any* connection to Nova ROma.
> Some of those addresses change frequently depending on our needs, so in just
> this small example you can see where the workload spirals out of control.
>

If you don t use those address to post to NR, no need for them to be
known, if you want to use them in order to post the NR list without
being previously censored, register them.
+ It is also very easy for the censor's db to have a primay e-mail and
only use the secondary ones if there is no answer to a mail to the
primary one.

> >>It seems you misunderstand censorship, previous censorship is about
> reading something before it comes public, effectively censoring it or not.>>
>
> According to your definition then, the very job you are seeking *requires*
> this at times. It is the nature of the job to have to, on occasion, take
> action and moderate members. Then again, you have made it clear you would
> not fulfill this aspect of the job should you be elected, and perhaps that
> explains your view above.
>

I will not censor a registered citizen without a previous juridic
decision.
Making the laws, judging and executing the sentence all by one unique
magistrate is a tiranny anyway you can turn it around.

> >>Make your mind: is previous censorship unfair or not?>>
>
> You need to read more carefully. I said that *targeting one segment of the
> population* is unfair. Moderating new members until they have established
> that they are here to be legitimate members and not to peddle porn or scream
> obscenities is completely fair and, indeed, necessary.
>

The non-citizens are not part of our population. This list is both the
forum of our nation which should not be censored in any way and a
discussion list open to all, which can be previously censored, even if I
don t feel it is

> <SNIP>
>
> >>The sworn duty of the Curator is to "_maintain_ and moderate the official
> email discussion list sponsored by the state", you never took care of the
> first part>>
>
> I haven't? Indeed. Maintenance has taken place in myriad ways this year.
> Assisting members with subscription, dealing with "bouncing" memberships,
> updating and cleaning up Files, assisting members with uploading files, etc.
>
> >>and interpreted the second part as meaning some previous censorship, in
> opposition to the constitution: "Such communications, regardless of their
> content, may not be restricted by the State, except where they represent an
> imminent and clear danger to the Republic".>>
>
> It fascinates me that you have known about this Policy for many months now
> and have never taken any action, despite repeated invitations to do so,
> towards having it overturned.

You know very well I appealed to the tribunes against your
interpretations.

> Perhaps that is our greatest difference. I
> care about this Nation as a whole, each and every month of the year. You
> seem simply to try and "rattle the cages" during elections. If you truly
> believed this Policy was unconstitutional then I have to openly challenge
> you to explain why you took no action or, indeed, ever mentioned it until
> now.
>

See above, and also my intervention defending somebody that said that
"the gods might or might not exist"

> >>All stems from your _interpretation_ of "reasonably moderated in the
> interests of maintaining order and civility".>>
>
> Exactly so. It is the *job* of Curatrix to do exactly this. It frightens
> me that you are so obstinately unaware of the very nature of the job you
> seek.

The nature of the job is to maintain a list for free communication
between the citizens of NR. The "reasonable moderation" does in no way
presuppose previous censorship, since it can be done through auctoritas
with appeals to calm down when a discussion becomes to "hot".

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: R: Curator Araneum
From:	"fraelov" <sacro_barese_impero@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:38:33 -0000

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Amulio Claudio Petro et omnibus S.P.D.

I want propose to the next Curator Araneum the creation of a team of
web specialist, open to all citizens like and know enough of web
design and system.
This team should work on the www.novaroma.org first of all,but it
should be able to help all the citizens want build own Nova Roman
website, provincial and personal too.
There should be programmers (like Marcus Octavius for example) and
designers (like me f.e.) ready to grow the official website and to
build Internet systems (or give advices) for "freaks" ;-) or simply
citizens don't know how create own personal page.
Today I joined the NovaRomaWebSites mailing list and I hope it will a
very active forum about web matters where we can present our ideas,
projects, etc. as you and I want, Amulius Claudio.

P.S.: I hope to present you early, Marcus Octavius, the website of
Provincial Italia. It's my first real (but little) Nova Roman
website. ;-) Thank you for your pleasent words, I know you are a very
good magistrat and Curator Araneum and I hope to work with you in the
next year.

Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
www.gensapula.too.it

> I joined up to this list in the first few days of its existence.
Since then
> it has been silent. I am very interested in this topic, I too
strongly
> encourage any citizens who design websites for this nation to join
up. By
> hearing your ideas and experiences of creating sites for Nova Roma
we may be
> able to better our existing websites together.
>
> If I am elected as an Aedile I intend to completely redo the ludi
section of
> NovaRoma.org. I would love to hear your feedback, ideas, etc. on
this
> project. Because we have no real world structures, our websites are
the
> closest thing we have to public buildings. We are the architects of
this
> nation. By working together at this list and sharing ideas, just
imagine the
> structures/websites we can create in the name of Nova Roma! Sign up!


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Sound Social Judgement
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:56:10 -0500

Salve,

>>I will not censor a registered citizen without a previous juridic
decision.>>

In other words, even if elected, you will not *do* the job unless another
magistrate forces you to.

>>Making the laws, judging and executing the sentence all by one unique
magistrate is a tiranny anyway you can turn it around.>>

Interesting definition of "tyranny". I did not make the laws. I merely
enforced them equally. In other words, I did my job. As you well know, if
a citizen feels that they are moderated without cause they have the right to
appeal it to the Tribunes and/or Praetors. One cannot be a "tyrant" with
our system of checks and balances.

>>This list is both the forum of our nation which should not be censored in
any way>>

May I ask a serious question? If you genuinely believe that this List
should not have *any* moderation, why do seek to be elected moderator? Is
your sole intention to ignore your sworn Constitutional duties if elected?
I honestly want to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but from
your words to date it appears that you wish to see the *job* of Curator
disappear and that you know if *you* are elected your wish will come true.

>>You know very well I appealed to the tribunes against your
interpretations.>>

Actually I have no knowledge of you ever approaching the Tribunes about the
moderation of new members, which was the specific policy in question. As
for other complaints? Yes, I am aware that you approached the Tribunes. I,
in fact, invited you to do so, since you felt so badly used. I am also
aware that had they found my actions to be anything other than legal they
would have taken swift and appropriate action. They didn't. Indeed, the
sole case where my stopping a thread *would* have been vetoed had been
reversed on my part before it was even necessary. We all err, the important
part is to learn from it and move forward. I am pleased to say I did just
that.

>>The nature of the job is to maintain a list for free communication between
the citizens of NR. The "reasonable moderation" does in no way presuppose
previous censorship, since it can be done through auctoritas with appeals to
calm down when a discussion becomes to "hot".>>

I am afraid this is a bit naive of you. Had we, as a community, been able
to simply back off and cool down when things got too "hot" we would not have
had to appoint an emergency Curatrix at one point. Face it, part of this
job is to *act* when necessary. You are unwilling to do so, and that is
your choice. I believe the voters will ultimately decide in favor of the
candidate willing and able to *do* the job required.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: R: Curator Araneum
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:14:45 -0500

Salve Franciscus Apulus Caesar,

>Franciscus Apulus Caesar at sacro_barese_impero@-------- wrote:
>
> I want propose to the next Curator Araneum the creation of a team of
> web specialist, open to all citizens like and know enough of web
> design and system.> This team should work on the www.novaroma.org first of
all,but it
> should be able to help all the citizens want build own Nova Roman
> website, provincial and personal too.

Actually, something like this is already used. The Curator Araneum is the
head citizen in charge of the site. He also has a team of appointed scribes
to aide him in different tasks. It you are not elected I really think you
would be the PERFECT candidate to be one of these scribes. You would still
get a chance to do many of your proposed changes, and at the same time gain
Nova Roma experience in the eyes of the citizens. Although maybe this "team"
could be more defined? Its really up to the Curator Araneum how this team
works.

> Today I joined the NovaRomaWebSites mailing list and I hope it will a
> very active forum about web matters where we can present our ideas,
> projects, etc. as you and I want, Amulius Claudio.

Franciscus, this is great! It has not been very active as of yet. But, you
and I, lets change this!

>
> P.S.: I hope to present you early, Marcus Octavius, the website of
> Provincial Italia. It's my first real (but little) Nova Roman
> website. ;-)

A superb one at that! From what I have seen it will definitely be the best
provincial site in the nation. Italia is very lucky to have you! Your site
will do them proud!

> Thank you for your pleasent words, I know you are a very
> good magistrat and Curator Araneum and I hope to work with you in the
> next year.

Thank for the kind words. Although, I am not running for Curator Araneum. I
am running for *Aediles Curules*. This is the official in charge of
entertainment, and any public buildings (if we had any). I hope to also get
involved in NovaRoma.org though. Seeing that the ludi section is in need of
updating, and I also plan on much internet based entertainment. Ether way, I
too look forward to working with you. It will be a pleasure.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Please visit my campaign website at:
http://www.virtue.nu/amclaudius/index.htm

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Web Site & Other
From:	"radams36" <radams40@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:07:37 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Marcus Sentius Claudius" <msentius@b...> wrote:

> Is anyone out there a practicing Christian - as I would like to
wish them
> all a merry xmas and to all my fellow citizens a very prosperous
new year.
> May it be one of peace throughout the whole world.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

Thank you, and a Merry Christmas to you. Season's greetings to all
our other friends in Nova Roma (in hopes that's sufficiently
secular....)

Valete,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Sound Social Judgement
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	11 Dec 2001 08:16:18 -0200

On Tue, 2001-12-11 at 00:56, JusticeCMO wrote:
> Salve,
>
> >>I will not censor a registered citizen without a previous juridic
> decision.>>
>
> In other words, even if elected, you will not *do* the job unless another
> magistrate forces you to.
>
> >>Making the laws, judging and executing the sentence all by one unique
> magistrate is a tiranny anyway you can turn it around.>>
>
> Interesting definition of "tyranny". I did not make the laws.

Didn't you ? Who imposed the language policy? Who wrote the "List
Rules"?

> I merely
> enforced them equally. In other words, I did my job. As you well know, if
> a citizen feels that they are moderated without cause they have the right to
> appeal it to the Tribunes and/or Praetors. One cannot be a "tyrant" with
> our system of checks and balances.
>
> >>This list is both the forum of our nation which should not be censored in
> any way>>
>
> May I ask a serious question? If you genuinely believe that this List
> should not have *any* moderation, why do seek to be elected moderator?

I will moderate this list, I will not impose previous censorship is that
so difficult to understand? There are thousands of e-mail lists out
there that are moderated without previous censorship and have a good
level of civility. The moderator uses his auctoritas to calm down
discussions and this is enough.

> Is
> your sole intention to ignore your sworn Constitutional duties if elected?
> I honestly want to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but from
> your words to date it appears that you wish to see the *job* of Curator
> disappear and that you know if *you* are elected your wish will come true.

I wish to see previous censorship disappear (what you call the
individual moderated status), not the global list moderation.
I wish that the curator effectively maintains the list by relocating it
on an independent, novaroman list server and gain indenpandance from a
foreign rather lousy server.
I wish to see the curator do his constitutional job instead of imposing
him(her)self as a list tyrant.

>
> >>You know very well I appealed to the tribunes against your
> interpretations.>>
>
> Actually I have no knowledge of you ever approaching the Tribunes about the
> moderation of new members, which was the specific policy in question.

It was about the moderation of individual citizens, not the anti-troll
device.
I agree with you something has to be done in this area, and your system
works, even if it reduces freedom. Since, at that point, I had no ideas
about an alternative system appealing to the tribunes would have been
globally counter-productive.
My ideas about bettering your system are effectively new.

> As
> for other complaints? Yes, I am aware that you approached the Tribunes. I,
> in fact, invited you to do so, since you felt so badly used. I am also
> aware that had they found my actions to be anything other than legal they
> would have taken swift and appropriate action. They didn't. Indeed, the
> sole case where my stopping a thread *would* have been vetoed had been
> reversed on my part before it was even necessary. We all err, the important
> part is to learn from it and move forward. I am pleased to say I did just
> that.
>
> >>The nature of the job is to maintain a list for free communication between
> the citizens of NR. The "reasonable moderation" does in no way presuppose
> previous censorship, since it can be done through auctoritas with appeals to
> calm down when a discussion becomes to "hot".>>
>
> I am afraid this is a bit naive of you. Had we, as a community, been able
> to simply back off and cool down when things got too "hot" we would not have
> had to appoint an emergency Curatrix at one point.

No participant in a discussion is able to cool down alone, an elected
(or appointed) moderator that did not participate in the discussion
auctoritas usually achieves this without problem. The figure of the
moderator is needed.

> Face it, part of this
> job is to *act* when necessary. You are unwilling to do so, and that is
> your choice. I believe the voters will ultimately decide in favor of the
> candidate willing and able to *do* the job required.

I believe the voters willl choose Universalism, Freedom and
Independance.

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Holiday Greetings
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:47:41 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

As the Holiday period approaches, most of us will celebrate in our own
way and with our own values and feelings before us. In my view, how we
celebrate the Hodiday Period is not nearly so important as the fact that
this period shall allow us tme for reflection on the vaues of our own
beliefs and ideals. Also this is the time to be with loved ones, if at
all possible, to be gay, and to have fun. Perhaps a chance to exchange
gifts if such is your desire, or to share your largesse and talents with
friends and those who might be friends in the accepted ways of your
view.

Though my personal beliefs are Christain in nature, I thnk that I can
understand the beauties and the bright spots of other beliefs, and I am
pleased to be among those who likewise can appreciate and honor the
beliefs and the wonders of other views of ideals and other paths of
celebration.

It is truly a season to be looked forward to, and a season to be savored
and shared. To all my friends in Nova Roma, I would wish a particularly
Happy Holiday Season and the culmination of all your expectations of
this Bright and Sweet Period of the Year.

For those Nova Romans with whom I have had disagreement during the last
year, I also wish to you a very happy season. I wish you the very best
of this Most Festive Period, hoping for you the same Joy and
Satisfaction that I hope for those close to me, and would hope that our
political and social differences can at least be laid aside during this
festive and thoughtful season.

Respectfully and Most Sincerely;

Marcus Minucus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] (unknown)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:04:37 -0000

ANTONIVS GRYLLVS GRAECVS PONTIFEX OMNIBVS QVIRITIBVS

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance in which no legal action can take place.

Today is the fourth Agonalia of the year, or the Agonalia Indigeti, most
probably in honour of Sol Indiges [Lydus, De Mensibus, 4.155]. Sol Indiges
is the traditional Roman solar deity also celebrated on August 9 at his
altar on the Quirinal Hill. Sol Indiges also had a temple at the Circus
Maximus, near the race-tracks, and was considered the protector of the
four-horse chariots ('quadrigae').
The Agonalia were celebrated four times in the year: the 9th of January, the
17th of March, the 21st of May, and the 11th of December. In the Agonalia
the Rex Sacrorum sacrificed a ram at the Regia [Varro, De Lingua Latina,
6.12; Ovidius, Fasti, 1.333].

Today is the Septimontium, a very old festival which celebrates the
federation of the inhabitants of the seven old hills of Rome: Palatium,
Velia, Fagutal, Cermalus, Caelius, Oppius and Cispius (of course these are
not the same as the later famous 7 hills of Rome). Today, no carts or
vehicles drawn by animals were allowed in the city [Plutarch, Roman
Questions, 68]. Sacrifice was offered on each one of the hills [Festus,
p.459, 1-3 (Lindsay Edition)].

The month of December is sacred to Vesta.

Di vos incolumes custodiant


Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem III Idus Decembres (December 11th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:08:33 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Attention Voters - Invalid Codes
From:	"Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:16:01 -0500

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

Voters with the following Tracking Numbers have used invalid Voter Codes:
Tracking Numbers: 8007, 5010, 8012, 7003, 8021, 8046, 5060, 8062, 5063, 8065, 7055, 5096

If any of these above Tracking Numbers applies to you, please check your Voter code and try again. Your voter code consists of three letters, followed by three numbers. Please do not confuse any letters with numbers. If you have a problem, please go to your profile page on the main Nova Roma website to get your Voter Code, or contact the Censors.
Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Attention Voters - Part II, Invalid Codes
From:	"Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:48:19 -0500

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

Voters with the following Tracking Numbers have used invalid Voter Codes.
Tracking Numbers: 7056, 5120, 8115, 7068, 5200, 8189, 5202, 8191, 7113, 5203, 8192.

If you have one or more of the above Tracking Numbers, please check your Voter Code and try again. Your voter code consists of three letters, followed by three numbers. Please try not to confuse letters and numbers. If you continue to have a problem you can get a Voter Code from your profile page at the main Nova Roma website or contact the Censors.
Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Holiday Greetings
From:	"amrcg" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:14:16 -0000

Salve amice collegaque Marce Minuci Audens

Firstly, thank you for your wishes.

> Though my personal beliefs are Christain in nature, I thnk that I
can
> understand the beauties and the bright spots of other beliefs, and
I am
> pleased to be among those who likewise can appreciate and honor the
> beliefs and the wonders of other views of ideals and other paths of
> celebration.
I think that there are more similarities between the several
religiones in Nova Roma than we might think. As far as I know, the
myth of Jesus Christ says that he was born as a man on earth, out
from the divine seed. The Saturnalia that precedes the 'bruma'
(passage from 24th to 25th December) and the Dies Natalis Solis or
Christi is precisely the festival of the divine sower Saturnus. The
sower of plentiness, the master of the Golden Age. After Saturnalia
the Sun is reborn as if from the seeds of Saturnus, and it does not
matter whether we call that Sun as Jusus Christ or Sol Invictus
Mithras. Both Suns are born in the end of Saturnalia, born to enlight
mankind promising another year or hard work, cultivating the wild
fields according to the will of the gods. Whether that hard work and
dedication is symbolized by the bull that Mithras carries on his
back, or by the cross that Christ carries on his back, it does not
matter. The symbol is the same. The 'transitus dei' of Sol Invictus
Mithras is the 'via sacra' of Christ. And both gods rise to the Isles
of the Blessed in Heaven after the hardship finishes, with the clean
conscience of the just who has followed his duty and now must have
some rest. And blessed are those who immitate the gods and work to
accomplish the divine will, a divine will that can be no other than
the 'Good' according to the words of fair Plato. Of these sowers will
the fruits of the Golden Age be in the end of the year.
And this period is precisely a good opportunity to became a sower of
the Good and let Saturnus act through our own words and acts, to
bring the plentiness of Saturnus to our fellow humans, to remember
the weak, the poor, the needing ones... And so to remember that there
is work to do and much to improve, the divine duty that must be
carried on our back throughout year that comes, the hardship we must
endure if we want the plentiness of Saturnus to come to us again in
the next Saturnalia and all Saturnalia until the end of time.

Valete bene
Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	[novaroma] Rank in the Legions
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:35:35 -0500 (EST)

In answer to the question on the Militarium List about the relative
ranking structure of Legion Officers, NCO's and Enlisted to today's
military hierarchy, I offer the following. To those Citizens on the
Main List, I also provide this information in response to several
requests for Roman Cultural information on topics not involved with
politics. Anyone wishing to join the Sodalitas Militarium has merely to
ask if you are a citizen. If you are not yet a citizen, you may request
to join the Militarium Socci to join in discussion on Roman Military
topics.

Generally speaking the ranks of todays army were not known in the period
of the Roman Legions, so one must refer to responsibilities for even a
rough comparison. Most authors relate the duties of the various Legion
Officers and NCOs by the number of men under their command / cognizance,
the rankng of the Centuries within the Legion, and the tasks undertaken.
However, one who undertakes this study must realize from the outset that
duties and responsibiities within a legion structure were significantly
different from todays military structure, so any comparison must be only
rough and a very individual view at best.

Therefore, Junior Centurions in command of the the lower numbered
centuries within Cohort, and probably had duties which related to those
of a Company Sergeant through Captain today. As the Centurion gained in
experience, he moved upward (through the ranks of the 6 levels of the
Cohort Centurinate) until finally being selected for a Cohort Command,
In this, his duties would very roughly equate to a Major as he commanded
more units / men than a modern Company and therein would have similar
duties and responsibilities to a modern Field Officer. The Primus
Pilus, third in command of a Legion would rank somewhere between a Major
and Lt. Col,

(below him were the five senior Centurions known as "primi ordines" who
commanded the five double centuries of the first cohort--themselves
probably on the track to Cohort Command)

while the Tribunus Militum Laticlavius (Senatorial Class) who was second
in command would rank between Lt. Col and Col. The problem with this
view is that often this senior Tribune was only with the legion for a
limited time before returning to take up his political duties in Rome.
Therefore the Primus Pilus and his experience is of significant value t
this Officer. The Legate would rank as a General (Senatorial Class) and
the Tribunes Militum Augustoclavii (Equestrian Class) would serve as
Staff to the Legate between the ranks of Lieutenant through Major
depending upon thier assignment.

Remember that these rank comparisons are only based only on numbers and
my views, in an attempt to answer your question. These ranks do not
take into consideration the various positions of importance which were
assigned to legions and to the addiional staff people such as the
Praefectus Castorum (Camp Chief--ranking generally between the Tibune
Laticlavius and the Tribunes Augustoclavii), the Aquilifer (Eagle
Standard Carrier-Legions Pay Chest) and the Imaginifer (Emperor's Image
Bearer). The duties of these positions, most assuredly, were as
important to the legion as the others mentioned.

Those who joined the Legions, but who were not yet able to complete the
daily drill or the long marches with full equipment can be equated with
"recruits" and these were brought to scratch by experienced legionaires
under the direction of a Centurion, and likely also of a Praefect of
some kind appointed for the purpose.

The "miles" or soldiers of the legion were the "privates" and they were
separated into squads or groups of eight men who shared meals,
accomodations, and a good part of their military life. Within that
squad or group was a leader, called a "decurio", who was in loose charge
of the group, probably more from experence and ability than from
appointment and would in our comparison equate to a "Corporal". We are
not sure how that person came to his position, nor are we sure that the
position was permanent or semi-permanent.. "The Roman Imperial Army" by
Graham Webster tells us that there were four ranks below that of the
Centurion in each century. The senior was the "Signifer" who was the
standard bearer who did all the paper work at the century level. Below
him was the "Optio" who took command of the century in the absence of
the Centurion. This position comes the closest to 1st Sergent for
command purposes even though he was apparently ranked by the Signifer.
Both the above NCOs were "principales" and recieved double pay. There
are records indicating that holders of both of these positions were
elevated directly to Centurion. The next in line was the "Tessarius"
(orderly-sergeant) who carried the daily watchword and who was
supposedly in charge of the sentry pickets and fatigue parties. This
NCO drew 1 1/2 pay and was also listed as a principalis. The fourth NCO
was the "Custus Armorum" who was in charge of the weapons and equipment.
This was likely an experienced Legionary with some mechanical and
administrative skills.

Some soldiers were also assigned to the Centurion as orderlies and
servants (polishing armor and boots, etc.). Davies indicates that
during the Imperial Period the rate of men who were designated either
immunis or principalis to legionares was as much as 1 to 5. In "Greece
and Rome At War" Peter Connolly mentions that all officers (presumably
this includes Centurions) had a "Beneficarius" (literally--Benefitted
One) who was the core of his staff. However, he goes on to say that
only officers down to the rank of Praefectus Castorum had the privalege
of having a Cornicularius.

The century posts were integrated into a Headquarters Staff known as the
"tabularium legionis" headed by a "Cornicularius" (Adjutant). The staff
also included a number of men with special duties who were soldiers, but
who were literate and had some education as well as the "miles immunes"
who were usually chosen from the ranks for special duties (there were
over 100 such special openings for these people) and who were relieved
of the fatigue duties of thier Century, They acted as modern Day
Specialist Troops, and generally had between 6-12 years experience as a
Legionary in the ranks. In addtion to the above, there were many
additional posts to which men of the legions were assigned outside the
legion, (usually on a temporary basis) such as police duties (market
patrols, border guards, prison guards, tax collectors, etc.) and special
guard duties (Governor, Procurator, military guards and patrols for
Civil Projects to handle slaves as required). The tricky part of this
whole study is that from the information that we have, we do not know
with any precision the relative relationships between these positions
and ranks, since there appears to be a variety of paths for advancement,
based on several factors such as location, skills, influence, education,
and family prominance. A relatively free movement between some of these
tasks is also indicated, bringing into question the command authority
and hierarchy.

"Service In the Roman Army" by Davies also gives a good account of
recruits and the rise of those who were educated to positions above that
of the legionary ranker. The impression gained from these works is that
of a large administrative organization which supported the Legions.

In specific answer to your question in this regard, there is a great
deal of information, which pertains to such, but there is as much
unknown as there is known. A study of the above texts in the related
areas, will provide you with a better knowledge of the subject, but will
in all likelyhood raise as many questions as are answered.

Additional references would also be recommended:

---"Roman Soldier" by Watson;

---Osprey Military Series, "Caesar's Legions" by Sekunda.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Endorsements
From:	"Martins-Esteves" <esteves@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Dec 2011 01:22:41 -0200

Salvete Cives
Salve Maximina Octavia

(scripsisti)
In the future, I hope that anyone running for office
make a regular appearance on the Main List. Only
since campaigning started have certain individuals
made an appearance on this list.

You have to consider that many cives have an other sort of engagement and don't post very often to the Main List. That happens also because of language barriers. I speak for myself: I live in provincia brasilia and write to our provincial list (and privately to cives as well) more often than to the Main List. And I think that happens to many cives from Europa too.

Valete

Titus Horatius Atticus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: R: Curator Araneum
From:	"fraelov" <sacro_barese_impero@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:02:28 -0000

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Amulio Claudio Petro S.P.D.

> Actually, something like this is already used. The Curator Araneum
is the
> head citizen in charge of the site. He also has a team of appointed
scribes
> to aide him in different tasks.

Yes, I know a web team exists but sorry I don't know who are the
scriba of Marcus Octavius and what is their wrok.

> It you are not elected

probaly.... :-)

> I really think you
> would be the PERFECT candidate to be one of these scribes. You
would still
> get a chance to do many of your proposed changes, and at the same
time gain
> Nova Roma experience in the eyes of the citizens. Although maybe
this "team"
> could be more defined? Its really up to the Curator Araneum how
this team
> works.

Thank you, I hope to became scriba of the next Curator Araneum and
serve with my few design skills.

> Franciscus, this is great! It has not been very active as of yet.
But, you
> and I, lets change this!

This mailing list is very important, I'm reading the old messages and
they are very interest. I hope to meet many citizens working togheter.

> A superb one at that! From what I have seen it will definitely be
the best
> provincial site in the nation. Italia is very lucky to have you!
Your site
> will do them proud!

Thank you, the website is almost ready, I must finish the english
section and I hope to build a section for the Dacian citizens with
the help of Prometheus. It is a little site but very important to
relunch the Provincia Italia.

> Thank for the kind words. Although, I am not running for Curator
Araneum. I
> am running for *Aediles Curules*. This is the official in charge of
> entertainment, and any public buildings (if we had any).

Sorry, Amulius, this Post scritum was for Marcus Octavianus. I know
for what you are candidated and I wish you elect Aedilae, you are
full of important skills and projects.

> I hope to also get
> involved in NovaRoma.org though. Seeing that the ludi section is in
need of
> updating, and I also plan on much internet based entertainment.
Ether way, I
> too look forward to working with you. It will be a pleasure.

Thank you, I'll serve the Curule Aediles want help by me for Internet
features. I talked yet with Caeso Fabius and I'm proud to serve your
Office.

Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
www.gensapula.too.it


Subject:	[novaroma] I am back, if any one noticed :)
From:	Craig Wallerstein <traiania@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:19:29 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

I just wanted to say, Hello, and let those who knew I
was gone that I am now back. 2001 has been a bad year
for me and computers, but 2002 is looking up since I
now have internet access at work again and a new
computer at home.

I am starting the monumental task of reading old
messages today and I look forward to getting caught up
very soon.

Multas Felicitates!

Marcus Traianus Valerius

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com