Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Demanding an explanation
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:09:10 -0500

Salve Titus Octavius Pius

I use Mac OSX on my home computers. I have been loyal to Mac for as long as
I have been using a computer. Although Apple always seems to screw up every
good thing they get. It has been a crazy ride staying on with Mac for all
these years. One day they mess up big, the next day they make up for it with
a crazy move like developing the "cute" iMac. Still, swimming against the
wave of Microsoft seems to further strengthen my loyalty to the Mac. =)

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Please visit my campaign website at:
http://www.virtue.nu/amclaudius/index.htm

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

>Kristoffer From at from@-------- wrote:
>
> Agreed. That's what the X in Mac OSX stands for. Apart from the obvious
> meaning, that Mac's seen the light and switched to the Unix operating
> system standard. Now windows is the ONLY OS out there NOT striving for
> POSIX compliance. Also, now Mac is more stable, easier to handle and
> greatly preferrable to windows for serious programmers. I.e., now Mac
> has the support of the Linux society! I still prefer a workstation with
> more than one button on the mouse, but I'm rather working with Mac OSX
> than with windows in ANY of it's incarnations.
>
> Go Mac, go Unix, go!





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Demanding an explanation
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:20:16 +0100

>Salve Titus Octavius Pius
>
>I use Mac OSX on my home computers. I have been loyal to Mac for as long as
>I have been using a computer. Although Apple always seems to screw up every
>good thing they get. It has been a crazy ride staying on with Mac for all
>these years. One day they mess up big, the next day they make up for it with
>a crazy move like developing the "cute" iMac. Still, swimming against the
>wave of Microsoft seems to further strengthen my loyalty to the Mac. =)
>
>Vale,
>
>"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
>"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
>
>--
>Amulius Claudius Petrus
>Candidate for Aediles Curules
>Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
>Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
>Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
>Canada Orientalis Provincia


Et tu mi Amice. Nice! ;-)

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule

CANDIDATE FOR CURULE AEDILE 2755

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Demanding an explanation
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:18:04 +0100

>Go Mac, go Unix, go!
>
>Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


Salve mi Amice!

I never thought I would hear it from You. But, nver the less it is like
honey in my ears. ;-)

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule

CANDIDATE FOR CURULE AEDILE 2755

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that doesn't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AVE ATQVE VALE!
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:35:01 EST

In a message dated 12/14/01 3:06:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
qccaesar@-------- writes:

> , I have to say the allegations he makes are pretty strong. But
> to quote him he has "no certain proof" therefore such
> allegations should not be aired publicly.
Salvete
The problem as I see it, is that Apollonius wishes to have a Rome more to his
personal liking.
Everytime he tries to do this, however, the "oligarchy" IHO blocks him in
some way.
Eventually instead of working to meet the "oligarchy" in some half way point,
he instead resigns. After spending two years of his life in helping
developing Nova Roma he quits. How Roman is that?

> regards to them and the "degradation" of Nova Roma he
> refers to what makes it any different than Rome in
> both Republican and Imperial times? If my memory
> serves me correct corruption was present in both
> Republican and Imperial Rome (I'm not implying that
> it's in NR) so that makes NR no different then Rome
> itself. He makes an argument that from what I depict
> makes Nova Roma sound as though it is not democratic.

Actually, because we have the internet, dedicated Rogators and the great
system devised by Octavious, we could have each of our individual votes be
counted,
which would be a pure democracy. BUT that was not the way of Rome.
Are we trying to reconstruct Rome and the Roman way or are should we just be
taking the bits and pieces that we like, as Apollonius suggest we should do?
That is the real question that is before us, citizens.

> He wishes "Nova Roma a just, free
> and democratic future with all" his heart but from my
> little experience here within Nova Roma over the past
> few months I have not seen anything to the contrary.

His reasoning is that if Rome was indeed a democracy, he'd be further along
in
his political aspirations. Like most radicals he believes, there has to be
reason why this has not happened. The Senate in its Oligarchy splendor has
thwarted the democratic process and indirectly his chances. Now on the other
hand if you citizens were the ones to vote for him, he'd be consul now. At
least that was what he feels.
I have to tell you, politics here in Nova Roma is no different then Rome.
You need to build power bases, clients, you need to have allies, patrons, you
need to be able to compromise on issues, you cannot make enemies of the
Founders, or the Senate. This is just common political sense. Not all
people are politicos however, or are unwilling to learn from example. And
Apollonius is one of those.

When our faction was facing defeat from the radicals last year NOT one of us
said we would resign from Nova Roma if they would win. Two things that
ancient Rome had that allowed them to conquer the western world,
determination and courage. And we will need those again, if we are to carry
out our mission here at Nova Roma.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
Proconsul
CAL.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Sulla's Response to ex-Formosanus
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:55:01 -0800

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus
> Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Quirites, I come before you today close to two
> years after I first came to the list of Nova Roma
> to see what it might be. In the two years that followed I
> took an active part in building this Respublica,
> including the co-founding of two sodalitates (Latinitatis
> and Musarum) and being the principal drafter of their
> constitutions, and the campaign for justice to sexual and
> linguistic minorities and against the oligarchic
> concentration of power. I have also served as Aedilis
> Plebeius this year, during which term I
> co-sponsored games and successfully staged a provincial
> meeting in Venedia.

Avete Omnes,

As one of the main persons "behind" Marcus Apollonius's reason for
resigning I will deviate from my normal procedure which is to just
delete his posts and I will actually respond to this.

> I have come to the conclusion that the general
> battle for justice in Nova Roma will not be won by
> me or anyone else in the near term or with any reasonable
> expenditure of human energy. Some reasons for this are:

Justice for whom? Who has been on trial? I have not noticed anyone on
trial or prohibited from running for office, applying for a Religio
position? Any citizen, in good standing, can do basically whatever they
want whenever they want it.

> 1) My candidacy for the governorship of Venedia was
> overwhelmingly turned down by the Senate despite the fact
> that the active provincials had unanimously endorsed me for
> the position and that I was the only legally qualified
> person in the province for the post. The only plausible
> reason supposable for this was the fact that the oligarchic
> party in the Senate wanted to settle personal scores and
> deny to an anti-oligarchist the chance of increasing his
> prestige or powerbase - even if a province had to suffer
> to accomplish those selfish and small-minded ends. I was
> willing to hold my nose and offer to work with the
> oligarchic party to the extent of proposing myself for the
> post - their unwillingness to work with
> someone of another political persuasion shows the naked
> partisanship of the conservatives in the Senate, and their
> fundamental unworthiness of such a position of trust.

Sulla: I hate to say this, but your opinion is not the only opinion out
there. I voted against you because a governor is supposed to be a
representative of the Senate. You would not be an adequate
representative of the Senate. Also, you pointed out on the ML that you
do not have a strong grasping of Polish. I remember Propraetor Lucius
Sicinius Drusus suggesting Maia Apollonia being governor and you being
her Legate, that is something I would have supported completely.
However you were unwilling to do this, why?

> 2) L. Cornelius Sulla "Felix" stands every chance of
> becoming senior consul in the coming year.

Sulla: As my soon to be colleague pointed out, I might not be Senior
Consul.


This
> person was the individual guilty of the outrages against
> kindness, fairness and normal non-discriminatory
> practice in his grossly unfair treatment of Marius
> Peregrinus (a transsexual who sought innocently and in
> good faith to have his name changed to match his "new"
> gender),

Sulla: Once again your facts are wrong. Must we all go through this
again. I have explained many many times that I was upholding the
previous decision during the Lustrum of Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
and Flavius Vedius Germancius.

including a great deal of personal
> nastiness behind the scenes that involved serious
> psychological abuse to this citizen in a completely
> unnecessary way.

Sulla: That is just so sad, but she did not have a problem applying to
Nova Roma (at least two times) using her correct legal name. And, then
notifying the Censors that she was going to send the necessary
documentation (which we never received). Maria Villoreal, who used to
be my best friend in NR, had an existing history of psychological
problems before ever joining Nova Roma. Are you going to blame that on
my head as well?

He is the one who divided the Respublica
> by his insistence on legislation to enshrine his
> discriminatory notions in our public law, an act completely
> useless and deeply repugnant to any ideals of iustitia we
> may have and against the non-discriminatory spirit and
> intent of the Constitution.

Sulla: You have your opinion. I have mine. When I published the
edicts they were revised a number of times to make it more flexible,
even incorporating a draft you composed back in May 2000. Instead of
being pleased at the numerous compromises I have tried to do to make the
law both workable and satisfy my sense of duty to the Res Publica you
have chosen to become more extreme and radical. That is perfectly
fine. However, when the final version of the edict was completed, it
was put up for a vote and overwhelmingly passed the consent of the
People of Nova Roma. You, of all people who constantly declare yourself
a voice of the people hereby reject the exercise of democracy and choose
to be hypocritical. If anyone has divided the Res Publica, it is not
me, but YOU.

This same Sulla conspired with
> other oligarchic factionists in the Senate to impose
> humiliating conditions on the normal return of Marius after
> his departure in protest though means of the most
> dubious legality and in violation of all natural equity.

Sulla: We did not have to allow Maria Villoreal back into Nova Roma.
My colleague at the time recused himself from her readmittance so it
fell on my lap. I recognized I was biased and then consulted the
Senate. I did not have too. I could have simply said, No, you cannot
reenter Nova Roma. I chose to abide by the wishes of my peers in the
Senate of Nova Roma. I think that the Senate of Nova Roma was very
lenient with Maria, and let her back in. Since her time back in NR she
has chosen to leave again!

> Additionally he acted in bad faith in the foundation of the
> Sodalitas Musarum against the agreement worked out by the
> founding committee, behaving in a manner consistent with
> his Senate-supremacist notions in a most personally
> treacherous way. He has also been accused of fixing the
> votes in elections - of which I have no certain proof, but
> which seems consonant with the general tenor of his
> character.

Sulla: What M. Apollonius fails to note is: I was a founding member of
the Sodalitas Musarum and a member of the Senate of Nova Roma. Pomepia
Cornelia was the Head of the forming committee. We voted on the charter
and Pomepia Cornelia asked me to submit the charter to the Senate. I
did so. Unfortunately it was submitted a couple of days early and there
was a question of procedure. However, all of the other founding members
of the Musarum decided that the submission of the Charter early was not
an issue. However, to M. Apollonius there seemed to be a HUGE breech of
protocol, he chose to blame me. That's fine, that was his right.
However, the approval of the charter still happened and we in the
Sodalitas Musarum just went on even after M. Apollonius resigned out of
protest for not getting his way. Now, how Roman is it to resign when
one does not get their way?

Sulla: I have been accused of fixing the votes in elections? And you
have no proof, yet you continue to declare the claim? I am so glad you
resigned for if you had not resigned I would have definately petitioned
the Praetors for a cause of action for injuria.

> That such a person should stand even the barest chance of
> not being exiled from Nova Roma, let alone having an
> excellent chance of winning its most powerful position
> shows the moral degradation here, a moral degradation that
> makes this an unfit place for decent people.

Sulla: Well, let me state for the record, that if NR was ran the way
you wanted it to be (and we will see how you do in your own group) I
would have no part of it. For, like what Voltaire said about the Holy
Roman Empire (neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire) your Roman Group
would be exactly that (Not Roman). I have seen your website, and I am
not impressed, at least I must say you did give credit to NR. Borrow
from her well, or else you might end up coming back. As you did before.

<SNIP>

> I am accordingly going to give up. I have sunk a great deal
> of my time - hours daily for long periods - into Nova Roma
> and have been unable to make it a minimally decent place.

Sulla: Well this is the second time around for you. As you well know
you legally have 9 days to reconsider. Lets see if you wait the 9 days
to come back again.

> Accordingly:
>
> I. I hereby resign my office of Aedilis Plebeius, having
> carried out my duties faithfully in accordance with my oath
> of office.

Sulla: By resigning?

> II. I hereby assign the position of paterfamilias of the
> Gens Apollonia to my filius Tiberius Apollonius
> Cicatrix.

Sulla: The Censors will appoint him as Pater once your 9 days is
complete.

> III. I hereby resign my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>
> I do not forget my Romanitas in taking these steps.

Sulla: What Romanitas? You resigned, you tell me of an ancient Roman
who resigned? What a distortion IMHO.

I am
> leaving to devote my full energies to a more modest, sane
> and decent on-line Roman community, the Societas Via
> Romana, located at
> http://www.svr.unitron.com.pl/Viaromana/. It is democratic,
> respects human rights, and has a more active cultural and
> educational life than is currently the case in Nova Roma.
> And the atmosphere is *much* more harmonious and pleasant.

Sulla: Good luck on your Non-Roman Micronation. May it be the "Utopia"
you want it to be. I saw that your a Senator there. Very interesting.

> Having roundly criticised Nova Roma above, I do want to say
> that there are many good candidates this time around, such
> as Limitanus, Pompeia, Diocletianus, the Apollonii, Maior,
> Salix Astur, Quintilianus, and Fortunatus. All decent
> people, and I wish them well. Maybe someday people of
> their stamp will overcome the oligarchic faction and make
> Nova Roma a place to be proud of. To do so I think the
> minimum steps would be:

Sulla: Most of the people in your statement are good and noble.

> I. To make voting according to the different methods for
> the different comitia as close as technically possible to
> one man one vote. Basic democracy must not be sacrificed to
> inappropriate historicism or would-be social engineering to
> protect the already powerful.

Sulla: Basic Democracy does not equal Rome.

> II. Legislating Tribunes. Some steps are being taken on
> this that are good - but it is important that
> Tribunes be able to legislate in their own assembly in a
> normal manner so as to provide a counterpoise
> to the legislative initiatives of the consuls.

Sulla: Nothing is preventing our Tribunes from legislating except for
their own reservations. The constitution clearly provides this. That
we have a Noble Tribune who will not excretes this power given the
discrepancy between Patricians and Plebians is something to take
notice. I commend Senator T. Labienus for his conservatism in this
delicate matter.

> III. To establish clear and equitable laws for criminal and
> civil judgements which would protect the
> accused from the powerful, and a de facto bill of rights to
> protect minorities from the prejudiced and xenophobic.

The Constitution in II.B.3 does grant protection to citizens. This has
been noted to you many times in the past. Unfortunately in your two
years in Nova Roma I doubt you have actually read the Constitution.

> IV. To guarantee equality of language rights to the maximum
> feasible extent, and the true internationalisation of Nova
> Roman society and power holding.

This is something I have been urging as well. However, we cannot just
rush into things, we need to properly assess a variety of variables
before we can implement this properly. Earlier in the year a number of
citizens (Antonio Gryllus Graecus, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, Lucius
Sicinius Drusus, Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus and others) prepared a
draft for a new language policy. Hopefully we will be able to
promulgate such a law in the coming year.

> And to the oligarchic faction of the Senate I say this:
> Many of you were founders and builders of Nova
> Roma. It was a grand idea for which you deserve credit.
> Unfortunately, by your concern to hang onto a
> disproportionate share of power you have poisoned the
> atmosphere and political culture and distorted
> the institutions for unjust and ignoble ends. You have made
> this worse by your championing of a right-wing social
> agenda and American chauvinism that have driven away many
> good people and will drive away many more if you do not
> wake up to what you are doing.

Sulla: Here are my final comments to you, M. Apollonius Formosanus. I
approved your citizenship almost two years ago. You had alot of promise
and we had some decent conversations. I appointed you as my scribe. I
in essence gave you a start in Nova Roma. Throughout your tenure you
have become more and more extremist, acting more and more like a
demagogue. You have paid the final price of being a demagogue,
alienating individuals, INCLUDING Maria Villoreal. You have fought your
battles and I have fought mine. I have tried not to make it personal,
it is obvious that you have. Good luck to you in your endeavors. Nova
Roma is not right for everyone and you have found that out.

> My personal friends in Nova Roma know who you are, and
> remain friends. I wish Nova Roma a just, free and
> democratic future with all my heart.

Nova Roma is a just, free and Her government functions perfectly fine.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Baffled
From:	"Mia Soderquist" <ursulanumeria@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:40:37 -0500

*sniff* *sniff*
Nah, it isn't you.

But what IS that intriguing fragrance you are wearing? ;)

>From: "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Baffled
>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:30:10 -0000
>
>Geez.... I pop in to say hello after two months of absence and the
>very next day there are two resignations.
>
>Do I really smell that bad?
>
>Nerva
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Help!
From:	"caiustarquitius" <caiustarquitius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:33:11 -0000

I need so. who has some sort of contact to a Press group like AP or
sthg. similar. In the best case it would be so. from germany/europe,
but everything would be helpful. As my university is on strike i
urgently need to find journalists helping us students to bring our
cases to publicity. So if so. has any kinds of contacts, relatives
and so on, please contact me. The circumstances of education and
democratic principles at university have become really bad, thus many
students in europe went on strike and/or started protesting. Help is
needed, as we should actually become the future of our countries.

As i am a student of roman history and archeology, this is some kind
of NR topic, of course ;)


Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Help!
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:01:27 -0800

Ave,

I interviewed with Anthony Brezcian on behalf of an NR article when
Gladiator was going to the Oscars. I still have his email addy around
here..email me privately and I can give it to you.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


caiustarquitius wrote:
>
> I need so. who has some sort of contact to a Press group like AP or
> sthg. similar. In the best case it would be so. from germany/europe,
> but everything would be helpful. As my university is on strike i
> urgently need to find journalists helping us students to bring our
> cases to publicity. So if so. has any kinds of contacts, relatives
> and so on, please contact me. The circumstances of education and
> democratic principles at university have become really bad, thus many
> students in europe went on strike and/or started protesting. Help is
> needed, as we should actually become the future of our countries.
>
> As i am a student of roman history and archeology, this is some kind
> of NR topic, of course ;)
>
> Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [See the Trailer!]
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Public Apology to Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus and to the SPQR on the subject of auspices
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:21:14 -0800 (PST)

--- Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> In a message dated 22-11-2001 that formed part of a
> debate between me and
> Pontifex Maximus M. Cassius Iulianus I have remarked
> that Consul Flavius
> Vedius Germanicus should not have taken auspices
> before calling the Senate
> according to the Augural Law. My words have affected
> his Dignitas because
> the Flavius Vedius Germanicus is also an Augur. The
> exchanged words were as
> follows:
>
> >Graecus:
> >As to the Augural policy I still do not see
> magistrates taking auspices,
> > Cassius:
> > Really? Augur Germanicus has taken auspices before
> the various Comitiae
> and Senate meetings, as has augur Cincinnatus. As
> for
> > magistrates, I myself took auspices before calling
> this current Comitiae
> meeting to order. Did you not see the announcement?
> > Graecus:
> > Then Augur Germanicus should know that according
> to the Augural Law, no
> auspices are taken before convening the Senate. Only
> the
> > Comitia require that procedure. Secondly, I wonder
> how the auspices were
> taken as I saw no posting about this. Did Consul
> Germanicus used
> > the 'tripudium'? Did he observe some eagle on his
> left? In ancient times
> the auspices were public and taken in the presence
> of the citizens.
> > While this is impossible to implement at the
> moment, at least a posting
> describing the events would be greatly appreciated.
>
> In fact I have today discovered that I was
> completely wrong, for in [Cicero,
> Epistola ad Familiares, 10.12.3], Cicero relates how
> a Consul has decided to
> interrupt the Senate session after being informed by
> the 'pullarii' (bearers
> of the sacred chicken used to take auspices by the
> method of the
> 'tripudium') that the auspices he had taken before
> calling the Senate had a
> mistake and were thus invalid.
> What happenned was simply that a Senate session,
> unlike the Comitia, seems
> to have never been stopped because of oblative
> auguries (i.e. those that
> happen by hazzard, by the sudden appearance of an
> ill omen), but the act of
> calling the Senate into session was still subject to
> imperative augury (i.e.
> auspices formally taken by magistrates with the
> 'tripudium').
>
> I thus ask you to direct at my person all the damage
> that my unfair and
> betraying words have caused to the Dignitas of
> Consul and Augur Flavius
> Vedius Germanicus, and which could also have
> affected the right observance
> of the Augural Law with all its bad consequences to
> our res publica.
>
> Valete bene
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> Senator and Pontifex
>


Ave Pontifex Graecus, Publicus Popoli Romani et amici,

I wish to personally commend or Pontifex for
giving such an endearing gesture. Not many people have
the dignitas to come before public scrutiny, and admit
a mistake. This, my fellow Nova Romans, must be taken
into full consideration. As our Pontifex Graecus is
obviously a very noble Roman. And should be
continuously held in high regard, as most of us
already do.The gods adore you, Pontifex Graecus.. This
is very obvious.As this Nova Roman has full respect
for your Romanitas.

Dii te ament,
A. Corvus Septimius


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Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma delenda est???
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:43:48 +0100

BlankAve Quirites!

I was shocked to see three people having resigned in less than 24 hours this morning. I am not saying that in each individual case there aren't any good reasons for doing so or not, I don't know. I can only say that it is indeed a pity for the people concerned that they didn't find Nova Roma the best vehicle for the realisation of their Roman projects, and for us as a community.

When all these people indeed go to the Societas Via Romana, of which Formosanus mentionned the website, what have we won? Yes, we finally got rid of those critical voices. But what when our micronation keeps growing as it is now and the project of becoming a respected nation amongst others that are macronations now is getting concrete? Will we not have to deal with critics then? What are the chances a New Rome stands when there are likewise 20 other organisations with each 100 members? (SVG mentions 25 members on its website)

I think we have to learn a lesson from this. All of you know that I myself am not a rebel and that I try to live according to the Romanitas and Dignitas that caracterize our nation. But rebellious forces are better just not kicked out, in the worst case just left alone (by deleting messages as Senator Sulla mentionned). We should offer them a forum for ventilating their opinions too. What to think of the cynics in the Ancient world, not very nice guys to talk too, but still members of society. The early christians weren't liked very much too, but they still maintained civis or at least still played a role in social life. This led to an integration in Roman society in which they contributed in their own way. Hitler's holocaust was based on racial grounds, but during history there have been several of these actions. In the Middle Ages, Jews were kicked out of Spain and Portugal for having a different religion/opinion. Have we not learned anything than?

I think that, no matter the constitution, magistrates and senate of our republic, we should give those rebels a chance too. I know that all of them LEFT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, so I'm not blaming anyone in particular. I just blame all of us, including myself, for not being more open to different opinions.

With this strange message, I want to prevent us from becoming fixed on ourselves in contemplating the majesty of our micronation with its more than 1000 members. Since our project and ambitions are real and demand a long term - life long - engagement of our members in order to succeed, it is important to be open enough for opinions differing 100% from our own. Rebellious forces are in one way or another either progressive, either destructive. But isn't all progression a little bit destruction of the old ways?

I hope that we won't be confronted with 20 organizations fishing in the same pond of Rome-lovers. That would be the end of the ambitious project of our Nation!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Lictor
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Propositio actionis rebus externus et internes
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:07:05 +0100

BlankAve Quirites!

* Concerning:

In this message I have two different proposals to make for new legislation towards our own citizens and towards other organisations assuming Roman heritage

* My Position

First of all I want to stress that I am no magistrate nor senator who is in the position of formulating these thoughts as a law of any other official form. I do however, as a Roman civis, have the right to formulate these things in a general discussion, hoping that a general consensus will be reached and that the necessary action will be undertaken by the people who are responsible for it.

* Starting point

I assume that it is the official Nova Roma position to claim the Roman heritage as the basis for its existence and the recreation of the res publica as a universal nation as its goal, next to promoting Romanitas, the Roman virtues, religion, philosphy, jurisdiction and all the rest on the same universal scale.

* Proposition I concerning the defense rights of each individual civis against any other civis, and against any official action of the state within the jurisdiction of Nova Roma

Following the recent discussion about the Nota that was issued by the responsable magistrate against Ti. Apollonius Callias, aka Sokarus, former civis of Nova Roma, I came up with this. I do not formulate this proposition as a friend of Sokarus, as a rebel or any other 'accusation' that may be brought up against me, but simply as a civis in order to prevent problems in the future.

As far as I know, any Roman civis has the right to a juridical procedure in which he is heard and able to defend him/herself. I understood that a nota is an action that a responsible magistrate can take against a civis for publically known acts in order to prevent this civis to do any more harm to the state than is already caused. I think this is a very good principle; but I doubt the right of civis to publically be heard by a court of law. I thus want to propose a court of justice being created under the presidence of the Praetores to which any Nova Roman can appeal when being troubled with an issue. The praetores will also be responsible of handling such actions as the prohibition to vote caused by a nota or the stripping off of the rights of any civis. In this court of law, the accusations will be formally expressed, the concerned civis / cives informed formally via email or any other means of contact, and the civis having a reasonable period of time to react to these. When all these elements are present, the praetores will conclude the issue by speaking justice in this court. As long as this verdict is unknown, the nota is a preliminary action or the stripping off of civil rights is not final. Once the verdict is known, it shall be communicated to the concerned cives as well as on the main list, so that the public is aware of the legal action taken.

I conclude by saying that I don't know of any institution or legislation in this way that is present in NR at this moment. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

* Proposition II concerning the position NR can take towards any other (rival) organisation claiming the same inheritance as we do

This proposal I make following the departure of several members of the gens Apollonia. This is felt more in Europe than in the States, simply because several Apollonii are Europeans. In discussing with some people it became clear to me that some respectable people in Nova Roma are also members of the Sodalitas Via Romana Formosanus speaks of. He is one of its founders, together with another civis of NR who is still with us. I know that two of the three people leaving NR, are joining SVR. I of course do not object any Romans joining different organizations, but I do want to prevent some sort of 'anti-NR' being formed.

There are three possible positions our res publica can take towards organizations claiming the same inheritance as we do. We can ignore it or leave it alone, we can be against other organizations or we can try to cooperate with them.

My proposal is this: first of all someone will be appointed for searching these organizations (via the www) in order to locate them. Contacts can be made via the official and legal way that is already in place after the identification is made. Then there are different options:
- we can propose a cooperation and mutual recognition or accept such a proposal. This can result in an advice in which any Nova Roman or member of the other organization is free to join the other party as a civis and enjoy full rights in both. This can also include that we open up our borders mutually and ask each civis whether they would like to join the other organization as well. This can also include that we don't ask this last question but that we can enjoy some passive participation rights mutually and that we do officially recognize the Roman citizenship each organization accords to its members as an official Roman citizenship as if it were accorded by our own magistrates. Something like the different churches of christianity who recognize mutual baptism.
- we can be denied cooperation. Following this move of the other organization, we exclude them from partaking in NR business. This exclusion does not involve each individual civis to join NR as he or she pleases.
- we can deny cooperation since we assume the other organization is some 'anti-NR'. Same procedure as being denied cooperation.

Conclusion:
- in cooperating with different organizations, we will increase our universal basis as Roman republic.
- in refusing other cooperations, we will have a legal basis to prevent any discussion later on when our micronation would transform in some macronation when we have grown enough
- cooperation with other organizations with the same objectives as we have is not destructive to unity. Think of the organization of the Roman empire. Every city had its own magistrates and senate and comitia (even when they had different names). The ancient world was a conglomerate of city-states with a unity brought to them by the Roman system.

* I hope you will forgive me my boldness for proposing this not being a magistrate or a senator. Even if some of the elements in the message may seem a bit hard, they are all meant to further NR in the recreation of the SPQR. I hope that discussion that will inevitably follow this kind of messages will come to an understanding that is workable material for our new magistrates in 2755!

May the gods be with you!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Lictor
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Rivals? Rebels? Where?
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:58:52 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

Societas Via Romana (SVR) is (caps don't indicate shouting) NOT A
MICRONATION. The administration is organised in a similar fashion to that of
a micronation, but it does not claim territory, does not claim legal
authority, does not call its members citizens and does not attempt to
recreate the Religio Romana. Read the site carefully before criticizing it.

Valete bene!
S. Apollonius Draco

<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] AVE ATQVE VALE!
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:34:17 +0100

Salve, O Praetor,

> The problem as I see it, is that Apollonius wishes to have a Rome more to
his
> personal liking.

On a short note, so do you.

> Everytime he tries to do this, however, the "oligarchy" IHO blocks him in
> some way.
> Eventually instead of working to meet the "oligarchy" in some half way
point,
> he instead resigns. After spending two years of his life in helping
> developing Nova Roma he quits. How Roman is that?
>

Nova Roma does not hold, imvho, the definition of "Romanitas". That is each
man's free choice.

(snipped)

> which would be a pure democracy. BUT that was not the way of Rome.
> Are we trying to reconstruct Rome and the Roman way or are should we just
be
> taking the bits and pieces that we like, as Apollonius suggest we should
do?
> That is the real question that is before us, citizens.
>

True enough. The site mentions a recreation of culture and religion, and not
politics, but it seems that many people have chosen it to interpret that
way.

> His reasoning is that if Rome was indeed a democracy, he'd be further
along
> in
> his political aspirations. Like most radicals he believes, there has to
be
> reason why this has not happened. The Senate in its Oligarchy splendor
has
> thwarted the democratic process and indirectly his chances. Now on the
other
> hand if you citizens were the ones to vote for him, he'd be consul now.
At
> least that was what he feels.

He was never a candidate for Consul. Besides, most of the high-ranking
magistrates have centuries for themselves, which increases their impact in
the voting process. If all those are opposed to one candidate, the other one
will most likely win. If this was a one man / one vote system, your argument
would be most correct, but alas, the situation is somewhat different here.

(snipped)

> When our faction was facing defeat from the radicals last year NOT one of
us
> said we would resign from Nova Roma if they would win.

Without wanting to rehash some issues here, it's unclear where the true
radicals were at, and secondly, you weren't facing defeat.

> Two things that
> ancient Rome had that allowed them to conquer the western world,
> determination and courage. And we will need those again, if we are to
carry
> out our mission here at Nova Roma.

That, I agree with!

Valete bene,
S. Apollonius Draco

<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>

Subject:	[novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita XXII et XXIII
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:42:17 +0100

Salvete omnes,

As a refreshing moment in between the political trench wars, I offer you the
latest chapters of the NR Mars novel. For those who would like to read the
earlier chapters, they can be found in the archives of both the ML and the
Sodalitas Musarum, and can also be asked through private request.

If you have comments, questions, suggestions or criticism, it is highly
welcome!

*******

XXII. Bellum omnium contra omnes

During the past few weeks, the Martianalists had been training themselves
under the command of Sertorius, who was really beginning to appreciate his
new troops; they were brave, willing to learn and also quick witted. Draco
had usually been wandering around with Aeternia, sometimes guarding the area
when there was nothing to do. He had not seen an Arg yet, but some among the
Martianalists told him that it wouldn't last long until he'd see one.
Aeternia had already encountered a few, which she didn't like to talk about.
Right now, it was night, and Draco was spending some time in the "panoramic
cave". He couldn't sleep, so he had come up to watch the stars and become
quiet and tired in order to sleep well. For a while, he just sat there
looking up to the sky, but then suddenly his attention was drawn by a bright
orange light that disappeared as quickly as it had come. He was just
beginning to think of a possible explanation when a second flash appeared at
roughly the same place. A third and fourth quickly followed, in shades of
yellow, orange and red. Other lights soon joined the fray, and it was then
that he realized Earth had begun its invasion.
In wild excitement, he ran down the stairway and made his way through the
dimly lit cavern system to Venator's quarters. Once there, he was panting
loudly. The guards outside looked at him more with surprise than suspicion.
They know he was one of the guests.
"Earth is attacking!" Draco panted, "I.. wanted to warn Venator."
"Are you sure?" one of the guards asked with disbelief.
"Yés, I am sure."
The other guard knocked on Venator's door and slid in, closing the door
behind him. After about a minute, the leader of the Martianalists stood in
the doorway of his cavern, fully clad in battle armour. The guards speeded
into several directions at once, waking the Martianalist community both
vocally and mentally.
"Thank you for warning us," Venator said. Draco felt quite humbled, not
because of what the leader had said, but because of the way he'd said it,
which expressed an enormous gratitude, while in fact any idiot standing up
there on the platform could have noticed things, and there was no immediate
threat for the caves yet.
"With your permission, I'd like to go back to my quarters and grab some
things to go outside with the rest," he said. Venator nodded.

About half an hour later, the Martianalist battle forces, led by Quintus
Sertorius and Lucius Marius, were outside the cave system. Draco suddenly
found the men and women, in their light, barely adapted uniforms with crude
weapons rather pitiful, some of them suspiciously looking about for a sudden
attack of Arg, others gazing at the sky, watching the flickering of light.
Other than that, it was a clear, regular night. Despite the sand storm
season having begun, it had not yet struck the Planum Australe.
The small battle force stood in Roman squares, with small anti-radiation
shields modelled after those of the official Martian army. Most of them did
not carry firearms; they claimed it was useless against most Arg, which made
Draco somewhat anxious, because all he had except for his pilum gun was a
laser lance, which was not the most reliable weapon in the world. He
realized more than ever that his life was at stake, all because of things
he'd never asked for, but sort of rolled into. All in all, there were about
two hundred men and women outside, organised in five squares, gathered
around the sole entrance to the caves. In the sky there were a few jetpack
patrollers, among whom were Quintilianus and Maximius. Draco was positioned
in the middle square, as were Sertorius and Peregrinus, who both appeared
remarkably calm, and had the air of experienced soldiers, even though
neither of them had ever fought in a war - this was in fact the first real
war Mars had ever known in its existence, and the first one for the Roman
Republic after so many millennia.
After another hour of waiting, shivering a little in the dry cold of the
rocky Martian desert and growing tired of the many-coloured lights in the
sky, which had increased in frequency and intensity, a wave of adrenalin
shook Draco's nerves when a battle cry surged from the square of warriors to
his left side, standing about hundred metres away. Everyone immediately
looked in that direction, and saw lights flashing nearby, appearently from
out of nowhere. Suddenly those same mysterious lights appeared in front of
him as well, about two hundred metres away. He held on tight to his pilum,
and felt that there was cold sweat in his handpalms. He thought of home, he
thought of the marble fora and too many dead people he had seen in the past
few weeks, especially Curio. The Arg closed in, and they were horrifying to
look at: feline, stealthy creatures in mechanical, semi-organic suits,
equipped with claws, and able to jump incredible distances. Their faces were
hidden from view by a pitch black mask with a red horizontal stripe where
Draco guessed the eyes should be. A part from their claws, which they used
in man-to-man combat, they were able to fire blue-coloured, half-transparent
projectiles from responsive and quick shoulder cannons. Draco, the young
soldier, was looking in the grinning face of death, and paralysed with fear.
It was only when the man in front of him went down under a violent and
brutal strike of an Arg claw that he was released from his paralysis. The
sudden release enabled him to pull his pilum and fire a few wild shots at
the creature in front of him. Caught off guard by the unexpected blasts of
the soldier's gun, the alien stood motionless for a fatal second. Draco
quickly took aim and fired a few rounds in the Arg's mask, which he reckoned
would be fatal, even on aliens. Lucky for him, his guess had been right.
While the thin, nocturnal sky was filled with sounds of metal upon metal,
and an occasional shot or battle grunt that could be heard through the
protective helmets, the alien fell over on the rusty soil.
It appeared that the square in which Draco stood had been broken. The other
squares seemed to hold themselves together, but were slowly retreating to
the main entrance. An alien soldier jumped from out of nowhere, launching
himself at Draco, who held up his pilum as a weak defence, before collapsing
under the weight of the Arg. In his fatal jump, however, the alien had been
pierced by Draco's pilum. It had rendered the weapon useless, but at least
he was alive. He crawled from under the corpse and drew his lance. He
decapitated an Arg than ran on by, and set a few steps back to where the
others of his own unit were. He briefly glanced at Sertorius and Peregrinus,
who were dealing with their own opponents. One of those blue, transparent
projectiles hit Draco in the side, and he fell over by the impact. It had
spread an unpleasant numbness. For a second he feared that it might be some
kind of poison that would completely stun or kill him, but the effect
appeared to be only local, slowing down his left arm somewhat. He ducked for
a second shot, and his helmet traced the source; an Arg soldier a few metres
away, behind a pair of rocks. When a third projectile dissolved in the
ground beside him, he was pretty certain that the Arg was after him. Having
no grenades at his disposal, he zigzagged forward as fast as he could,
barely escaping a few lost bullets of the Martianalists themselves. While
running, he brought his small lance up with one hand, and jumped over the
rocks, trying to plant his spear into the alien flesh. He only hit an arm,
and his adversary knocked him back with a claw. Draco, lying on the ground,
fended off a next attack by holding his lance in both hands horizontally,
and swung it in a wide circle to give him a chance to get up. While he got
up, he swung it a second time, knocking the Arg off its feet. Without giving
it a second thought, he slammed his spearpoint deep into the alien's torso.
Dark purple blood rushed out of the ugly looking wound.
"Draco, where are you?" he suddenly heard in his helmet. The voice belonged
to Sertorius. Draco brought his head slightly above the rocks. Quintus
Sertorius stood further away. Most Arg grunts had been killed or had
retreated a little, focusing on the right flank. The left flank was backing
up their brothers and sisters on the right side.
"Here I am," Draco said, superfluously, as it was clear that his decemvir
had seen him. He came from behind the rock and followed the rest of the
Martianalists to the right flanks. They were slowly closing in on the Arg.
The Martianalists, while primitvely equipped, were able to punch back the
Arg with their mental capacities, and some were even killed before they
could ever reach their adversary. However, a lot of Martianalists had
already been slain in battle. The cold damp of sublimated blood hung about
the places where the mutilated corpses of these people lay.
When the last Arg were being killed, a strange sound came from the same
region where the first Arg had appeared. All turned around.
"One square!" Sertorius commanded. As in the drill excersises, what was left
of the irregular Martianalist army stood more or less in one Roman square,
guarding the entrance. The furthest angle of the square pointed at the
direction from which the sound was heard. Draco was part of that angle. He
used his zooming function in the visor of his helmet to get a better look at
the new enemies. They were even more shocking than the Arg soldiers he'd
seen a moment ago. They consisted of mechanical parts, which caused the
clicking sounds, but were also humanoid in form, some of them having a
swollen human torso, others having three human arms, some of them even a
head. They were hideous, but softened the heart at the same time with an
incredible compassion, especially those with a human head. He zoomed out
again as they came into clear vision now. The Martianalists were not
especially shocked, but he knew Peregrinus and Sertorius would be.
The first cyborgs crashed into the shields held up by the Martianalists.
"Advance!" Sertorius yelled from the centre of the square. His troops, not
breaking formation, slowly advanced. Two Martianalists died under the heavy,
mechanical blows of the cyborg commandos. A third one collapsed upon impact
of a dark blue ray. Draco had reactivated his shield, and held it close to
his body. A second wave of cyborgs rushed into the formation, which slowly
turned, presenting a long side to the opponents. An Arg cyborg fell back
dead due to a telekinetic attack, and another one impaled itself on Draco's
lance in a suicide attack. While the formation was holding, in the middle
the cyborgs were pounding their way in, sending the sound of crushing bones
into the night, which made the neck hairs of Draco stand up straight,
despite his excessive production of sweat. He was unable to rally to the
defence of the centre, as his corner was now surrounded, too, by cyborgs.
His compassion had gone, and he lashed out aggressively at two enemies,
without slaying either. He took a step forward and made a running enemy trip
by extending his spear on the ground, and then planted the sharp point deep
into its back. Suddenly an immense heat in his left knee threw him on the
rocky ground. Painfully he turned around to see his army uniform protection
shattered at the back of his knee. As if the burning pain wasn't enough, it
became mixed with the insane cold from the Martian night. A cyborg flung
itself at Draco, who barely managed to use his shield to keep the creature's
claws from penetrating his torso. Looking up at the human face of the
creature, he saw that he recognised it.
"Curio!" he screamed from behind his helmet, unsure whether the cyborg would
respond or even hear what he was saying. The cybernetic soldier lifted his
mechanical right arm and crushed the shield generator Draco was carrying.
"Curio, don't kill me, it's me, Draco!" he yelled, and made eye contact with
what was left of his former friend. Just as he raised his left, clawed fist
to deliver the final blow, he appeared to break down, in a mechanical way.
His face remained frozen and expressionless, but his eyes fixed their gaze
upon Draco. All around he could hear battle cries, and every now and then
the sky was brightened by an explosion from above, or a blue heat ray
swirling through the sky.
"Don't you recognise me?" he faintly said, feeling the energy ebbing away
from his body, and trying to make use of the cyborg's confusion. The cyborg
turned his head, as if to get a better perspective. He then spoke, forcedly
and mechanically.
"Draco?"

XXIII. Ecce homo!

Iasonus Serenus Carolus Peregrinus familiae suae SPD,

I do not know if - let alone when - this letter will ever reach you. By now
you will know that I never reached Olympus Mons. When the monotrain arrived,
we found the gates closed for anyone but military personnel, and had to
return back to Nova Roma. The ride back was turbulent and chaotic, as we got
caught in the middle of a small dust storm, and the train had to stop twice.
I could swear that even the elements of nature were working against us,
vexing and teasing our fragile psyches and our weak, mechanical constructs
that barely protected us from the violent beauty outside.

The Urbs looked even worse than before. The rubble of the riots had been
cleaned up, but there were almost no people on the streets. No merchants, no
schoolchildren skipping classes, no lazy patricians wandering about. Only an
occasional, half-demented Sokrates, or members of the praetorian guard. I
checked into an unconspicious hotel, and repeatedly tried to call Olympus
Mons, but to no avail. Paper was scarce, and worst of all, in my stupor and
haste to get off the monotrain and find a payphone, I forgot my portable com
in the train. Chances that I'll be getting it back are slim. With nothing
better to do, I went down to the taberna, and engaged in an occasional
conversation now and then.

During one of these occasions, I was talking to Gaius Sentius, a young
fellow who had done some work for the Tribune Piscinus before he was killed.
He had since become a technical assistant in the Curia, and caught a lot of
gossip there. He was not very eager to talk about it, and nor was I eager to
pry the information out of his skull, but as the evening went on, and
alcohol was steadily consumed, he did tell me some things that you might
find interesting, if it were only to give you an idea what sort of beehive
the Roman Republic has become.

Everyone in Nova Roma knew that the only remaining Tribune, Fortunatus, had
been placed under arrest on suspicion of high treason. Popular rumor held,
however, that this was to cover up that Festus had escaped from his cell,
and was now freely roaming the city and its temples. Three legions were
dispatched to seek and destroy the Martianalists, and Australicus and
Octavius then appointed Theodorus Tiberius as new supreme commander of the
Roman army, and sent him to Mons Olympus to ready Mars' defences as quickly
as possible. It slowly became clear that the Consules were growing very
powerful. One Tribune was dead, and the other was locked up. There was only
one Praetor left, and the lower magistracies had their own business to mind.
Most of the Senatores that would have protested had also been killed earlier
at the hands of Festus, and their faction was reduced to a minority. Gaius
Sentius told me that the atmosphere in the Curia was growing more apathic
every day.

But then, the invasion came. In its own way, it had something magnificent.
The lights in the nocturnal sky were terrible and beautiful to behold at the
same time. It was as if the very Gods were battling among our starsailors.
There, you could spot Athena's long green spear, or on the opposite side, a
twisted trident of Neptune. But none of these shallow images could stand up
against Mars' own anger, that came upon the land in the form of an intense
dust storm. Red and dark orange sand swept across the City's transparent
shell, and several times that night the Aediles had to embark on missions to
close some gaps that had been carved in our oxygen shields by those sharp,
destructive forces of nature.

Next day, we got word through the official communication channels that the
Roman fleet had been defeated, not by Earth's ships, but by an unknown,
second type of craft that were most likely alien in origin. The terran fleet
had already landed in the south, and had overrun a few towns without much
resistance. The Arg - as those aliens appeared to call themselves - had set
up a few bases in the south. Sattellites however could see that their
progress was much slower than expected, due to an unknown cause. At any
rate, the fleet was pulled back, and all available soldiers, mostly
conscripts, were gathered around Olympus Mons and Nova Roma itself, when the
Mars' anger began to wear off later that day. I went to the remarkably
deserted temple of Venus and prayed there for your safety and for love to
abound. I can only hope that you have left Xanthe Terra before the Arg came.
It appears that they show no mercy. That evening, the general mood in the
city was one of despair.

Next morning, I was summoned by a few praetorians, and had to join the army.
Having no other choice, I left the hotel with my few possessions, and went
along with them and a group of other people, most of them men, some of them
women. Overnight, they later told me, not only Diocletianus, Octavius and
Fortunatus had disappeared, so had the three legions that had been sent down
south to defeat the Martianalist terrorrists. I spoke little that day, and
could only pray for the war to be over soon - Australicus was now Consul
sine collega, and showed no intentions yet to hold another election for
Tribuni or Praetores. Some Senatores had escaped in private shuttles to
their villae in the Jovian Federation, or further even, on exotic Titan.

After a minimal training in combat tactics and arms, I was immediately put
in a freshly assembled legion that was to guard the northwest gate of Nova
Roma. Not that it mattered much. If the shell of our city was pierced, we
were done for. Terrans would perhaps not do that, but nobody knew what the
Args' intentions were, and what in Iuppiter's name had driven them to
cooperate with Earth. Military camps rose from the ground like toadstools,
all across the city, and even though the mornings had a sense of defeat,
despair and powerlessness about them, the evenings could be quite jolly,
under the turbulent blankets of a sandstorm, or in an improvised taberna
with music and good company. However, each day the news got worse. Olympus
Mons had been bombarded, and half of the town was obliterated, having been
drilled into the weak ground of the filled up volcanic crater. What was left
of the present defence forces had rose in a mutiny against Theodorus
Tiberius - the news bulletins did not give any reason as to why they had
done that - and was now scattered across the western hemisphere, most of
them in the area of Colonia Marineris. Earth's army was within a day's
travel of Nova Roma, and since they did not send any bombers, we were
somewhat relieved to know that even if we would lose, they'd probably let us
live.

Strange news, however, came from the south. The Martianalists had not only
vanquished three Roman legions, they had even enlarged their own army, and
were allegedly under the command of a former soldier named Quintus
Sertorius. He and his renegade army were responsible for fending off some
Arg attacks, but were slowly driven northeast, towards the capital. When I
heard this news, I hoped that you and the children would be among them.
Renegades or outlaws as they may be, at least they are human. While most
people in the streets, the camps and the guard positions were discussing the
possibility of a temporary pact with Sertorius and his men - estimated about
a thousand well-armed and battle-hardened milites - Australicus promulgated
an edictum that declared them enemies of the state. Discontent was growing,
but where could we go to? The price of a shuttle ticket had become
ludicrously high, and travelling through space had become risky. The Jovian
Federation had abruptly broken all ties with both Mars and Earth, and had
shut its borders tightly. Most towns had been occupied, sacked, or were
running empty. Plus, we were in the middle of the dust season, making
chances of escaping even slimmer. The only way, we concluded, was to fight,
not for the regime or the state, but for ourselves, and for our own
well-being.

Today, Earth's troops will be reaching us. I'm writing this on the back of
an election flyer that I found on the toilet wall of a taberna, using the
ballpoint of a captain who was so kind as to lend it to me. May this letter
reach you, but most of all - may you be safe.

Amo vos omnes.

Pater.

*****************

Valete bene,
S. Apollonius Draco
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum

<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>

Subject:	[novaroma] NovaRoma News Magazine?
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:08:11 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

I just went through the voting process and found it extremely hard to
choose one or the other candidate, even though there were some
recommendations on this list and on my regional list too.

My problem is - and it might not just be mine - that sometimes I have
plenty of time and can be very active in NovaRoma life. Then, at times,
I'm very busy and I can just have a quick look at the different subjects
discussed in this list, sometimes I don't even have the time to read the
posts.

So I was thinking that maybe someone wants to start an _independent_
Nova Roma News magazine, that could bring to a broader public the events
of Nova Roma and important topics discussed in the main list. Especially
during election times I'd expect from this kind of News magazine to
inform me on the candidates, providing interviews with them so I can see
what opinion they have in this or that matter.

I'm asking here for someone, because I couldn't fulfil the job of "Chief
Editor". However I'd be glad to make the publishing job and, as time
permits, write articles, translate articles in German or French.

It would be great if this message brings together a couple of
independent people (independent meaning not involved in NovaRoma
politics) and that we could start this project as soon as possible. Also
feel free to comment on this, especially if you think this would be a
waste of time. I don't know how strong the demand for this is...

Valete bene,

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rivals? Rebels? Where?
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:13:29 +0100

Salvete omnes!

>From the site of SVR Collegium Religionis:
"Dedicated to the historical recreation of the Religio Romana
by means of discussion, study, practice and creative expression"

Quite strange to read that they do not attempt to recreate religio romana then, doesn't it?

>From the regula fundamentalis or constitution of SVR:

"1. The Societas Via Romana is a transnational fellowship and community dedicated to the remembrance, reenactment, and, as far as applicable, re-creation, of the Roman heritage of Mankind, especially in its humanism, universalism, and dedication to freedom under the rational rule of law, as well as the Religio Romana, the Lingua Latina, the philosophy, literature, and virtues of Rome, and other aspects of the multicultural Roman civilisation maintaining validity and worth to the present era."

It is indeed clear that the members of SVR are called simply members and not cives or citizens. I have not seen any reference to a micronational status either. But I noticed that in the passage I took from the regula, that they might not be rivals in the strict sense of the word, but that they care about the same things we do. So an official position of NR towards this Sodalitas might impose itself nevertheless...

To give any civis the opportunity to check these references and to check out the website, here is the address again:
http://www.svr.unitron.com.pl/Viaromana/

For the record: I am not trying to make the SVR into a rival, I am simply saying that IMHO cooperation is a good option, the reactions of several cives do not give this option many credit I'm afraid, since it is known that Formosanus is one of its founding fathers...

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Lictor
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/

----- Original Message -----
From: S. Apollonius Draco
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:58 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Rivals? Rebels? Where?


Salvete Quirites,

Societas Via Romana (SVR) is (caps don't indicate shouting) NOT A
MICRONATION. The administration is organised in a similar fashion to that of
a micronation, but it does not claim territory, does not claim legal
authority, does not call its members citizens and does not attempt to
recreate the Religio Romana. Read the site carefully before criticizing it.

Valete bene!
S. Apollonius Draco

<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>

Subject:	[novaroma] RE: AVE ETQUE VALE!
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:25:28 EST

Salvete,

I congratulate former Citizen Formosanus on taking this step. He has been
unhappy with Nova Roma almost since the first moment of his joining. I have
spoken with him about this on a few occasions both publicly and privately in
the past and feel this is the most reasonable course.

For many months it has been obvious that Formosanus' personal views are
incompatible with *the founding ideals* of Nova Roma. Although he has tended
to focus on current magistrates in his posts, the simple truth is that he
simply has never agreed with what Nova Roma has always been about.

It seems to me that Formosanus joined Nova Roma not because he agreed with
it, but rather because he wanted to make it something different. I believe he
saw Nova Roma only as a 'ready made foundation' that he could gradually
change and use to advance his own personal goals. It is never wise for one to
join a group solely on such a belief.

It is difficult for anyone, no matter how skilled, to find harmony or
happiness by joining a community that they disagree with on almost every
point. This is what happened with Formosanus, and there is no bitterness or
hard feeling in saying this.

I have long held that since Formosanus has held vastly different beliefs
about every aspect of Roman community, he should found his own organization
where he could give his ideas free reign. It is only sensible that he should
do so if his personal ideas are so strong that he can accept no compromise
with the goals and ideals of others.

This parting should not be a sad time, nor should it be a time of enmity.
Formosanus has merely left to follow his own vision. We should be pleased for
him in that he is now able to do as he wishes without being forced to argue
or compromise.

Vale, Formosanus. I can't say I was ever your friend, but I *can* say I
respect you for finally deciding to take on the responsibility of making your
own visions a reality.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul


M. Apollonius Formosanus wrote:

I. I hereby resign my office of Aedilis Plebeius, having
carried out my duties faithfully in accordance with my oath
of office.

II. I hereby assign the position of paterfamilias of the
Gens Apollonia to my filius Tiberius Apollonius
Cicatrix.

III. I hereby resign my citizenship in Nova Roma.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rivals? Rebels? Where?
From:	"J. Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:17:03 +0100

Salve Cai Putei,

>
> >From the site of SVR Collegium Religionis:
> "Dedicated to the historical recreation of the Religio Romana
> by means of discussion, study, practice and creative expression"
>
> Quite strange to read that they do not attempt to recreate religio romana
then, doesn't it?
>

We are in the process of changing this part, as the majority doesn't agree
with it either :).

Vale bene,
Draco

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Propositio actionis rebus externus et internes
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:49:55 -0000

---Salvete Gaius Puteus et Alii:

You are not being bold by expressing your concerns, and proposing some
solutions to what you see as key problems.

That is not being bold, *outtaline*, or anything to this effect.
It shows that you are genuinely interested in the wellbeing of Nova
Roma.

Yes, our law code in some areas needs a polish.

I'll tell you what. I shall archive these ideas of yours, and forward
them to the Praetors in question next year, depending on the outcome
of the election.

Have a good day, quirites.

Pompeia Cornelia






In novaroma@--------, "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@h...> wrote:
> BlankAve Quirites!
>
> * Concerning:
>
> In this message I have two different proposals to make for new
legislation towards our own citizens and towards other organisations
assuming Roman heritage
>
> * My Position
>
> First of all I want to stress that I am no magistrate nor senator
who is in the position of formulating these thoughts as a law of any
other official form. I do however, as a Roman civis, have the right to
formulate these things in a general discussion, hoping that a general
consensus will be reached and that the necessary action will be
undertaken by the people who are responsible for it.
>
> * Starting point
>
> I assume that it is the official Nova Roma position to claim the
Roman heritage as the basis for its existence and the recreation of
the res publica as a universal nation as its goal, next to promoting
Romanitas, the Roman virtues, religion, philosphy, jurisdiction and
all the rest on the same universal scale.
>
> * Proposition I concerning the defense rights of each individual
civis against any other civis, and against any official action of the
state within the jurisdiction of Nova Roma
>
> Following the recent discussion about the Nota that was issued by
the responsable magistrate against Ti. Apollonius Callias, aka
Sokarus, former civis of Nova Roma, I came up with this. I do not
formulate this proposition as a friend of Sokarus, as a rebel or any
other 'accusation' that may be brought up against me, but simply as a
civis in order to prevent problems in the future.
>
> As far as I know, any Roman civis has the right to a juridical
procedure in which he is heard and able to defend him/herself. I
understood that a nota is an action that a responsible magistrate can
take against a civis for publically known acts in order to prevent
this civis to do any more harm to the state than is already caused. I
think this is a very good principle; but I doubt the right of civis to
publically be heard by a court of law. I thus want to propose a court
of justice being created under the presidence of the Praetores to
which any Nova Roman can appeal when being troubled with an issue. The
praetores will also be responsible of handling such actions as the
prohibition to vote caused by a nota or the stripping off of the
rights of any civis. In this court of law, the accusations will be
formally expressed, the concerned civis / cives informed formally via
email or any other means of contact, and the civis having a reasonable
period of time to react to these. When all these elements are present,
the praetores will conclude the issue by speaking justice in this
court. As long as this verdict is unknown, the nota is a preliminary
action or the stripping off of civil rights is not final. Once the
verdict is known, it shall be communicated to the concerned cives as
well as on the main list, so that the public is aware of the legal
action taken.
>
> I conclude by saying that I don't know of any institution or
legislation in this way that is present in NR at this moment. If I'm
wrong, please correct me.
>
> * Proposition II concerning the position NR can take towards any
other (rival) organisation claiming the same inheritance as we do
>
> This proposal I make following the departure of several members of
the gens Apollonia. This is felt more in Europe than in the States,
simply because several Apollonii are Europeans. In discussing with
some people it became clear to me that some respectable people in Nova
Roma are also members of the Sodalitas Via Romana Formosanus speaks
of. He is one of its founders, together with another civis of NR who
is still with us. I know that two of the three people leaving NR, are
joining SVR. I of course do not object any Romans joining different
organizations, but I do want to prevent some sort of 'anti-NR' being
formed.
>
> There are three possible positions our res publica can take towards
organizations claiming the same inheritance as we do. We can ignore it
or leave it alone, we can be against other organizations or we can try
to cooperate with them.
>
> My proposal is this: first of all someone will be appointed for
searching these organizations (via the www) in order to locate them.
Contacts can be made via the official and legal way that is already in
place after the identification is made. Then there are different
options:
> - we can propose a cooperation and mutual recognition or accept such
a proposal. This can result in an advice in which any Nova Roman or
member of the other organization is free to join the other party as a
civis and enjoy full rights in both. This can also include that we
open up our borders mutually and ask each civis whether they would
like to join the other organization as well. This can also include
that we don't ask this last question but that we can enjoy some
passive participation rights mutually and that we do officially
recognize the Roman citizenship each organization accords to its
members as an official Roman citizenship as if it were accorded by our
own magistrates. Something like the different churches of christianity
who recognize mutual baptism.
> - we can be denied cooperation. Following this move of the other
organization, we exclude them from partaking in NR business. This
exclusion does not involve each individual civis to join NR as he or
she pleases.
> - we can deny cooperation since we assume the other organization is
some 'anti-NR'. Same procedure as being denied cooperation.
>
> Conclusion:
> - in cooperating with different organizations, we will increase our
universal basis as Roman republic.
> - in refusing other cooperations, we will have a legal basis to
prevent any discussion later on when our micronation would transform
in some macronation when we have grown enough
> - cooperation with other organizations with the same objectives as
we have is not destructive to unity. Think of the organization of the
Roman empire. Every city had its own magistrates and senate and
comitia (even when they had different names). The ancient world was a
conglomerate of city-states with a unity brought to them by the Roman
system.
>
> * I hope you will forgive me my boldness for proposing this not
being a magistrate or a senator. Even if some of the elements in the
message may seem a bit hard, they are all meant to further NR in the
recreation of the SPQR. I hope that discussion that will inevitably
follow this kind of messages will come to an understanding that is
workable material for our new magistrates in 2755!
>
> May the gods be with you!
>
> Vale optime in pace deorum!
>
> Caius Puteus Germanicus
> Lictor
> Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
> Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque
Occidentalis
> Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
> http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
> http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Help=21?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:40:52 +0100

Try my friend Volker Fröse <volker@--------> but try it in German if possible,
for his English is not the best and tell him you got his adress from Thomas
Hänzi. He surely has contacts within the press and may be able to help you
out.



-- Original-Nachricht --

>I need so. who has some sort of contact to a Press group like AP or
>sthg. similar. In the best case it would be so. from germany/europe,
>but everything would be helpful. As my university is on strike i
>urgently need to find journalists helping us students to bring our
>cases to publicity. So if so. has any kinds of contacts, relatives
>and so on, please contact me. The circumstances of education and
>democratic principles at university have become really bad, thus many
>students in europe went on strike and/or started protesting. Help is
>needed, as we should actually become the future of our countries.
>
>As i am a student of roman history and archeology, this is some kind
>of NR topic, of course ;)
>
>
>Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>



________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Help=21?=
From:	tiberius.ann@--------
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:42:53 +0100

Sorry, I didn't mean to write anything without signing my name. The mail
referring to Volker Fröse with greetings from Thomas Hänzi came from Tiberius
Annaeus Otho

Valete, Tiberius Annaeus Otho

-- Original-Nachricht --

>I need so. who has some sort of contact to a Press group like AP or
>sthg. similar. In the best case it would be so. from germany/europe,
>but everything would be helpful. As my university is on strike i
>urgently need to find journalists helping us students to bring our
>cases to publicity. So if so. has any kinds of contacts, relatives
>and so on, please contact me. The circumstances of education and
>democratic principles at university have become really bad, thus many
>students in europe went on strike and/or started protesting. Help is
>needed, as we should actually become the future of our countries.
>
>As i am a student of roman history and archeology, this is some kind
>of NR topic, of course ;)
>
>
>Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>



________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!

Subject:	[novaroma] Oh Drat
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:16:31 -0000

Time goes to quickly...

I am leaving now to go back to Savannah, but if all goes well, I may
be able to visit home again within a few weeks, if not during the
Holidays.

I hope everyone has a Happy Saturnalia, Happy Hannukah, Merry
Christmas, and a Happy New Year!

Iulia....I feel like poop for not emailing you. You are in my
thoughts and I hope things go well for you.

Big Hug for Mater Patricia Cassia and for....uh....well...a handshake
for Pater Cassius.

Nerva

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Propositio actionis rebus externus et internes
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:10:58 +0100

Ave Pompeia Cornelia!

I thank you for your kind words and your concern to bring these items before the praetores next year. Allow me to wish you good luck in becoming one of them!!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Lictor
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/

----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_cornelia
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 3:49 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Propositio actionis rebus externus et internes


---Salvete Gaius Puteus et Alii:

You are not being bold by expressing your concerns, and proposing some
solutions to what you see as key problems.

That is not being bold, *outtaline*, or anything to this effect.
It shows that you are genuinely interested in the wellbeing of Nova
Roma.

Yes, our law code in some areas needs a polish.

I'll tell you what. I shall archive these ideas of yours, and forward
them to the Praetors in question next year, depending on the outcome
of the election.

Have a good day, quirites.

Pompeia Cornelia






In novaroma@--------, "Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@h...> wrote:
> BlankAve Quirites!
>
> * Concerning:
>
> In this message I have two different proposals to make for new
legislation towards our own citizens and towards other organisations
assuming Roman heritage
>
> * My Position
>
> First of all I want to stress that I am no magistrate nor senator
who is in the position of formulating these thoughts as a law of any
other official form. I do however, as a Roman civis, have the right to
formulate these things in a general discussion, hoping that a general
consensus will be reached and that the necessary action will be
undertaken by the people who are responsible for it.
>
> * Starting point
>
> I assume that it is the official Nova Roma position to claim the
Roman heritage as the basis for its existence and the recreation of
the res publica as a universal nation as its goal, next to promoting
Romanitas, the Roman virtues, religion, philosphy, jurisdiction and
all the rest on the same universal scale.
>
> * Proposition I concerning the defense rights of each individual
civis against any other civis, and against any official action of the
state within the jurisdiction of Nova Roma
>
> Following the recent discussion about the Nota that was issued by
the responsable magistrate against Ti. Apollonius Callias, aka
Sokarus, former civis of Nova Roma, I came up with this. I do not
formulate this proposition as a friend of Sokarus, as a rebel or any
other 'accusation' that may be brought up against me, but simply as a
civis in order to prevent problems in the future.
>
> As far as I know, any Roman civis has the right to a juridical
procedure in which he is heard and able to defend him/herself. I
understood that a nota is an action that a responsible magistrate can
take against a civis for publically known acts in order to prevent
this civis to do any more harm to the state than is already caused. I
think this is a very good principle; but I doubt the right of civis to
publically be heard by a court of law. I thus want to propose a court
of justice being created under the presidence of the Praetores to
which any Nova Roman can appeal when being troubled with an issue. The
praetores will also be responsible of handling such actions as the
prohibition to vote caused by a nota or the stripping off of the
rights of any civis. In this court of law, the accusations will be
formally expressed, the concerned civis / cives informed formally via
email or any other means of contact, and the civis having a reasonable
period of time to react to these. When all these elements are present,
the praetores will conclude the issue by speaking justice in this
court. As long as this verdict is unknown, the nota is a preliminary
action or the stripping off of civil rights is not final. Once the
verdict is known, it shall be communicated to the concerned cives as
well as on the main list, so that the public is aware of the legal
action taken.
>
> I conclude by saying that I don't know of any institution or
legislation in this way that is present in NR at this moment. If I'm
wrong, please correct me.
>
> * Proposition II concerning the position NR can take towards any
other (rival) organisation claiming the same inheritance as we do
>
> This proposal I make following the departure of several members of
the gens Apollonia. This is felt more in Europe than in the States,
simply because several Apollonii are Europeans. In discussing with
some people it became clear to me that some respectable people in Nova
Roma are also members of the Sodalitas Via Romana Formosanus speaks
of. He is one of its founders, together with another civis of NR who
is still with us. I know that two of the three people leaving NR, are
joining SVR. I of course do not object any Romans joining different
organizations, but I do want to prevent some sort of 'anti-NR' being
formed.
>
> There are three possible positions our res publica can take towards
organizations claiming the same inheritance as we do. We can ignore it
or leave it alone, we can be against other organizations or we can try
to cooperate with them.
>
> My proposal is this: first of all someone will be appointed for
searching these organizations (via the www) in order to locate them.
Contacts can be made via the official and legal way that is already in
place after the identification is made. Then there are different
options:
> - we can propose a cooperation and mutual recognition or accept such
a proposal. This can result in an advice in which any Nova Roman or
member of the other organization is free to join the other party as a
civis and enjoy full rights in both. This can also include that we
open up our borders mutually and ask each civis whether they would
like to join the other organization as well. This can also include
that we don't ask this last question but that we can enjoy some
passive participation rights mutually and that we do officially
recognize the Roman citizenship each organization accords to its
members as an official Roman citizenship as if it were accorded by our
own magistrates. Something like the different churches of christianity
who recognize mutual baptism.
> - we can be denied cooperation. Following this move of the other
organization, we exclude them from partaking in NR business. This
exclusion does not involve each individual civis to join NR as he or
she pleases.
> - we can deny cooperation since we assume the other organization is
some 'anti-NR'. Same procedure as being denied cooperation.
>
> Conclusion:
> - in cooperating with different organizations, we will increase our
universal basis as Roman republic.
> - in refusing other cooperations, we will have a legal basis to
prevent any discussion later on when our micronation would transform
in some macronation when we have grown enough
> - cooperation with other organizations with the same objectives as
we have is not destructive to unity. Think of the organization of the
Roman empire. Every city had its own magistrates and senate and
comitia (even when they had different names). The ancient world was a
conglomerate of city-states with a unity brought to them by the Roman
system.
>
> * I hope you will forgive me my boldness for proposing this not
being a magistrate or a senator. Even if some of the elements in the
message may seem a bit hard, they are all meant to further NR in the
recreation of the SPQR. I hope that discussion that will inevitably
follow this kind of messages will come to an understanding that is
workable material for our new magistrates in 2755!
>
> May the gods be with you!
>
> Vale optime in pace deorum!
>
> Caius Puteus Germanicus
> Lictor
> Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
> Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque
Occidentalis
> Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
> http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
> http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [NovaromaVizantia] Nova Roma delenda est???
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:34:56 -0800

Ave Caius Puteus.

> Caius Puteus Germanicus wrote:
>
> Ave Quirites!
>
> I was shocked to see three people having resigned in less than 24
> hours this morning. I am not saying that in each individual case there
> aren't any good reasons for doing so or not, I don't know. I can only
> say that it is indeed a pity for the people concerned that they didn't
> find Nova Roma the best vehicle for the realisation of their Roman
> projects, and for us as a community.

Sulla: Just to clarify there are 4 Apollonii who have resigned. 2 of
them resigned privately to the Censors. However, let me please let you
know not to be shocked. Nova Roma has gone through this before, even
with Formosanus resigning once before. As I have stated in my
substantial rebuttal to Brady Moore, Nova Roma is not for everyone. If
you want Nova Roma to be more of a 21st Century based organization and
are unwilling to compromise on political issues, then you might have to
come to the realization that you might not fit properly in Nova Roma.

> When all these people indeed go to the Societas Via Romana, of which
> Formosanus mentionned the website, what have we won? Yes, we finally
> got rid of those critical voices. But what when our micronation keeps
> growing as it is now and the project of becoming a respected nation
> amongst others that are macronations now is getting concrete? Will we
> not have to deal with critics then? What are the chances a New Rome
> stands when there are likewise 20 other organisations with each 100
> members? (SVG mentions 25 members on its website)

What have we won? Nothing. Its not about winning or losing. It is
about working together with individuals to accomplish ones goals and
objectives. Brady Moore has been banging the same dead horse for 2
years. That's fine, as I have stated previously, but once you start on
the path of being a demagogue one must be prepared for inevitable result
when Demagogues argue extreme positions and fail to grasp popular
support.

> I think we have to learn a lesson from this. All of you know that I
> myself am not a rebel and that I try to live according to the
> Romanitas and Dignitas that caracterize our nation. But rebellious
> forces are better just not kicked out, in the worst case just left
> alone (by deleting messages as Senator Sulla mentionned). We should
> offer them a forum for ventilating their opinions too. What to think
> of the cynics in the Ancient world, not very nice guys to talk too,
> but still members of society. The early christians weren't liked very
> much too, but they still maintained civis or at least still played a
> role in social life. This led to an integration in Roman society in
> which they contributed in their own way. Hitler's holocaust was based
> on racial grounds, but during history there have been several of these
> actions. In the Middle Ages, Jews were kicked out of Spain and
> Portugal for having a different religion/opinion. Have we not learned
> anything than?

Sulla: I just wanted to clarify, Nova Roma has gone through this
before. What is ironic is that every single time they have blamed me,
my allies and supporters. I say the problem is theirs. Go back in the
archives. If you become extremist and unwilling to compromise and you
fail to get popular support for your point of view you are going to
alienate the majority of citizens. They did. Some of them were very
respected Nova Romans, and even today we suffer from their absence.
Does that mean we (NR) must change from her path. Absolutely not. We
are here for a specific mission. To restore Roman Virtue, Roman
Government, the Religio and the Roman way of life. That, quite frankly
is not for everyone. I can say for myself that I am here for those
reasons. I am not here to make a 21st Century version of the Roman
Republic/Empire.

> I think that, no matter the constitution, magistrates and senate of
> our republic, we should give those rebels a chance too. I know that
> all of them LEFT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, so I'm not blaming anyone in
> particular. I just blame all of us, including myself, for not being
> more open to different opinions.

I say we do. Everyone has a chance to speak publically from the rostra
(the NR main list). Even when one is moderated, one still has the
opportunity of reaching all of our active citizens via this medium.
Caius Puteus, don't blame yourself. I don't blame myself. Brady Moore
fought for what he believed in. He lost and he left. If I lost the
battle I still would not leave NR, because a Roman does not leave.
Romanitas/Dignitas/Auctoritas to me compose the measure of a man. His
magnanimousness (sp.) in the face of victory and his dedication to NR
when he is facing defeat. I have experienced both extremes in Nova Roma
and I am still here.

> With this strange message, I want to prevent us from becoming fixed on
> ourselves in contemplating the majesty of our micronation with its
> more than 1000 members. Since our project and ambitions are real and
> demand a long term - life long - engagement of our members in order to
> succeed, it is important to be open enough for opinions differing 100%
> from our own. Rebellious forces are in one way or another either
> progressive, either destructive. But isn't all progression a little
> bit destruction of the old ways?

Who says we are fixed on ourselves. Respectfully Caius Puteus I think
you are seriously forming conclusions without getting all the facts. I
have recommended this many times and I am going to do so again. Please
go back to www.yahoogroups.com and read the archives. There are alot of
them, over 26,000 messages but that will give you the best information
for basing any conclusions. Not the resignation of Brady Moore.

> I hope that we won't be confronted with 20 organizations fishing in
> the same pond of Rome-lovers. That would be the end of the ambitious
> project of our Nation!

Caius Puteus, Nova Roma is not for everyone. As Censor, I have learned
alot about citizens in general when they come to Nova Roma. Here is
what just some of what I have learned.

1. Many people have come into NR because they thought the concept was
very "cool." And were fascinated in what we were doing.

2. Many people have entered NR without reading any archives, the
Constitution or any information that would explain to them what our
purpose is.

3. Many people have become citizens in NR thinking that we are a PC
based organization.

Does that mean NR needs to change? I don't think so. When I joined NR
I read everything on the Nova Roma website. I wanted to research this
organization before I snail mailed my application into Nova Roma (back
in February 1998). In reality I don't even think I posted a single
message til 4-5 months later. So what does this mean for us? I believe
that our new prospective citizens and even those citizens who are fairly
new should take some to to really explore the Nova Roma website and
archives at yahoogroups.com to really see if NR is right for them.
Everything is accessible at your fingertips, so there is no reason not
to explore and learn about the evolution of Nova Roma, from an
organization of 2 people to now an organization of 1100.

Very Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Candidate for Consul

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: [NovaromaVizantia] Nova Roma delenda est???
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:00:09 +0100

Ave Lucie Cornelie Sulla Illustre!

I thank you for responding in detail to the message I posted earlier today. I think you have the advantage of being a member of NR right from the beginning, to be able to see that everything has its ups and downs. The shock-effect I mentionned still was in my fingertips when typing the message I reply to now. Afterwards, the proposals I made were meant to be more constructive than the 'mea culpa' that was laid in the first message.

You are right in saying that NR is not for everyone, and in mentionning that all the necessary info is on site or in the archives of the ML right for prospective or new cives. I can say that I explored the website in detail before joining, reading the constitution very attentively and being impressed by the mission NR gives herself. I have to say that I am very pleased to have met with so many wonderful people who may not all share the same opinions, but who share the same goals and the same dignitas, romanitas etc. I hope I will be able to contribute in my own little way to the growth of NR, in which I found out that - with a readiness to compromise as you said - there are many people ready and willing to make it all worth while.

Nevertheless, I haven't gathered all the fact concerning the question of former civis Formosanus aka Brady Moore. I don't think this is really relevant given the closing of the message, in which I ask for an opening for critics ventilate their opinion. I say you are right in assuming the people on moderated status can still speak to all of us. Let it be clear also that I am not the defender of Formosanus or any other rebel here. I just wanted to say that indeed criticism - no matter the words that are used - can still make something happen. I do not agree with personal attacks as we have seen from Sokarus and the like. This is affecting the dignitas of the people concerned. No Roman would have that pass in front of all the people, not in the days of Ancient Rome, not today either.

I think, in conclusion, that indeed we as an organization do not have to change following these resignations. But we can learn from it for the future and that is why I posted the propositions to the main list too.

Very respectfully,

May the gods walk with you too, Senator Sulla!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Lictor
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/

----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
To: NovaromaVizantia@--------
Cc: novaroma_europe@-------- ; Nova Roma
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:34 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: [NovaromaVizantia] Nova Roma delenda est???


Ave Caius Puteus.

> Caius Puteus Germanicus wrote:
>
> Ave Quirites!
>
> I was shocked to see three people having resigned in less than 24
> hours this morning. I am not saying that in each individual case there
> aren't any good reasons for doing so or not, I don't know. I can only
> say that it is indeed a pity for the people concerned that they didn't
> find Nova Roma the best vehicle for the realisation of their Roman
> projects, and for us as a community.

Sulla: Just to clarify there are 4 Apollonii who have resigned. 2 of
them resigned privately to the Censors. However, let me please let you
know not to be shocked. Nova Roma has gone through this before, even
with Formosanus resigning once before. As I have stated in my
substantial rebuttal to Brady Moore, Nova Roma is not for everyone. If
you want Nova Roma to be more of a 21st Century based organization and
are unwilling to compromise on political issues, then you might have to
come to the realization that you might not fit properly in Nova Roma.

> When all these people indeed go to the Societas Via Romana, of which
> Formosanus mentionned the website, what have we won? Yes, we finally
> got rid of those critical voices. But what when our micronation keeps
> growing as it is now and the project of becoming a respected nation
> amongst others that are macronations now is getting concrete? Will we
> not have to deal with critics then? What are the chances a New Rome
> stands when there are likewise 20 other organisations with each 100
> members? (SVG mentions 25 members on its website)

What have we won? Nothing. Its not about winning or losing. It is
about working together with individuals to accomplish ones goals and
objectives. Brady Moore has been banging the same dead horse for 2
years. That's fine, as I have stated previously, but once you start on
the path of being a demagogue one must be prepared for inevitable result
when Demagogues argue extreme positions and fail to grasp popular
support.

> I think we have to learn a lesson from this. All of you know that I
> myself am not a rebel and that I try to live according to the
> Romanitas and Dignitas that caracterize our nation. But rebellious
> forces are better just not kicked out, in the worst case just left
> alone (by deleting messages as Senator Sulla mentionned). We should
> offer them a forum for ventilating their opinions too. What to think
> of the cynics in the Ancient world, not very nice guys to talk too,
> but still members of society. The early christians weren't liked very
> much too, but they still maintained civis or at least still played a
> role in social life. This led to an integration in Roman society in
> which they contributed in their own way. Hitler's holocaust was based
> on racial grounds, but during history there have been several of these
> actions. In the Middle Ages, Jews were kicked out of Spain and
> Portugal for having a different religion/opinion. Have we not learned
> anything than?

Sulla: I just wanted to clarify, Nova Roma has gone through this
before. What is ironic is that every single time they have blamed me,
my allies and supporters. I say the problem is theirs. Go back in the
archives. If you become extremist and unwilling to compromise and you
fail to get popular support for your point of view you are going to
alienate the majority of citizens. They did. Some of them were very
respected Nova Romans, and even today we suffer from their absence.
Does that mean we (NR) must change from her path. Absolutely not. We
are here for a specific mission. To restore Roman Virtue, Roman
Government, the Religio and the Roman way of life. That, quite frankly
is not for everyone. I can say for myself that I am here for those
reasons. I am not here to make a 21st Century version of the Roman
Republic/Empire.

> I think that, no matter the constitution, magistrates and senate of
> our republic, we should give those rebels a chance too. I know that
> all of them LEFT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, so I'm not blaming anyone in
> particular. I just blame all of us, including myself, for not being
> more open to different opinions.

I say we do. Everyone has a chance to speak publically from the rostra
(the NR main list). Even when one is moderated, one still has the
opportunity of reaching all of our active citizens via this medium.
Caius Puteus, don't blame yourself. I don't blame myself. Brady Moore
fought for what he believed in. He lost and he left. If I lost the
battle I still would not leave NR, because a Roman does not leave.
Romanitas/Dignitas/Auctoritas to me compose the measure of a man. His
magnanimousness (sp.) in the face of victory and his dedication to NR
when he is facing defeat. I have experienced both extremes in Nova Roma
and I am still here.

> With this strange message, I want to prevent us from becoming fixed on
> ourselves in contemplating the majesty of our micronation with its
> more than 1000 members. Since our project and ambitions are real and
> demand a long term - life long - engagement of our members in order to
> succeed, it is important to be open enough for opinions differing 100%
> from our own. Rebellious forces are in one way or another either
> progressive, either destructive. But isn't all progression a little
> bit destruction of the old ways?

Who says we are fixed on ourselves. Respectfully Caius Puteus I think
you are seriously forming conclusions without getting all the facts. I
have recommended this many times and I am going to do so again. Please
go back to www.yahoogroups.com and read the archives. There are alot of
them, over 26,000 messages but that will give you the best information
for basing any conclusions. Not the resignation of Brady Moore.

> I hope that we won't be confronted with 20 organizations fishing in
> the same pond of Rome-lovers. That would be the end of the ambitious
> project of our Nation!

Caius Puteus, Nova Roma is not for everyone. As Censor, I have learned
alot about citizens in general when they come to Nova Roma. Here is
what just some of what I have learned.

1. Many people have come into NR because they thought the concept was
very "cool." And were fascinated in what we were doing.

2. Many people have entered NR without reading any archives, the
Constitution or any information that would explain to them what our
purpose is.

3. Many people have become citizens in NR thinking that we are a PC
based organization.

Does that mean NR needs to change? I don't think so. When I joined NR
I read everything on the Nova Roma website. I wanted to research this
organization before I snail mailed my application into Nova Roma (back
in February 1998). In reality I don't even think I posted a single
message til 4-5 months later. So what does this mean for us? I believe
that our new prospective citizens and even those citizens who are fairly
new should take some to to really explore the Nova Roma website and
archives at yahoogroups.com to really see if NR is right for them.
Everything is accessible at your fingertips, so there is no reason not
to explore and learn about the evolution of Nova Roma, from an
organization of 2 people to now an organization of 1100.

Very Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Candidate for Consul

Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma delenda est? NEGAT!!! :)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:56:09 EST

Caius Puteus Germanicus wrote:

>I was shocked to see three people having resigned in less than 24 hours this
morning. I am not saying that in each individual case there aren't any good
reasons for doing so or not, I don't know. I can only say that it is indeed a
pity for the people concerned that they didn't find Nova Roma the best
vehicle
for the realisation of their Roman projects, and for us as a community.

Cassius respondit:
While such things are never pleasant, there's no need for shock. This happens
in all large organizations. People come, people go - and there are almost as
many reasons for this as there are people.

Happily, as with most long term communities, the vast majority of folks that
join Nova Roma stay here. We've never gained less than 20 Citizens in a
month, (even through the Sept. 11th crisis!) and we average far less than 20
citizens announcing their departure in a *year*. That's a better ratio than
in most of the public organizations right here in the town I live in, so I'm
optimistic about things. :)


>When all these people indeed go to the Societas Via Romana, of which
Formosanus mentionned the website, what have we won? Yes, we finally got rid
of those critical voices. But what when our micronation keeps growing as it
is now and
the project of becoming a respected nation amongst others that are
macronations
now is getting concrete? Will we not have to deal with critics then? What are
the chances a New Rome stands when there are likewise 20 other organisations
with each 100 members? (SVG mentions 25 members on its website)

Cassius respondit:
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with folks going to Formosanus' new group.
His personal vision has always been vastly different than that of Nova Roma.
This is certainly a better solution than Formosanus demanding that all of
Nova Roma change just to satisfy his individual tastes.

As far as I'm concerned, Nova Roma has no problem whatever with the existence
of the 'Societas Via Romana." We can't be all things to all people - so it is
reasonable for other groups to exist. As far as I'm concerned there should be
peace and cordiality, and perhaps even eventually friendship between the two
organizations.

And, I firmly believe that there eventually WILL be 20 other Roman
organizations out there. That is simply human nature. The thing to remember
is that such a state of affairs will be a great victory for Nova Roma, not a
defeat.

Before Nova Roma, there was no organized Roman voice anywhere in the world.
Now there is one. The organizations to come will owe us a debt for breaking
ground for Romanitas and paving the way for them. They can only be a
compliment and tribute to us - we have and will continue to have the best
foundation, the broadest and deepest ideals, and the best people and
resources.

The groups that form as time goes on will either be the imitation that is the
"sincerest form of flattery", or will be dissent groups that can only serve
to prove the depth and power of our efforts and ideals. Either way they are
to be appreciated rather than argued with or feared. :)

>I think we have to learn a lesson from this. All of you know that I myself
am
not a rebel and that I try to live according to the Romanitas and Dignitas
that
caracterize our nation. But rebellious forces are better just not kicked out,
in the worst case just left alone (by deleting messages as Senator Sulla
mentionned).

Cassius:
Again, in this particular instance I do think this change is for the best. I
for one certainly wouldn't have forced Formosanus to leave - but I find I do
applaud his decision to take responsibility and act on the personal views he
refused to compromise on.


>We should offer them a forum for ventilating their opinions too.

Cassius:
That is something that Nova Roma has done to perfection. Our forums have been
an open platform for Formosanus and others to speak freely, and also to
develop their own ideals and ideas before the public over time. Formosanus
has left not because he felt he couldn't vent his opinions, (he's been doing
it well for two years) but rather because he felt a need to act on those
opinions without having to compromise with others.

>What to think of the cynics in the Ancient world, not very nice guys to talk
too, but still members of society. The early christians weren't liked very
much
too, but they still maintained civis or at least still played a role in
social
life. This led to an integration in Roman society in which they contributed
in
their own way. Hitler's holocaust was based on racial grounds, but during
history there have been several of these actions. In the Middle Ages, Jews
were
kicked out of Spain and Portugal for having a different religion/opinion.
Have
we not learned anything than?

Cassius:
Since I'm aware of no great enmity on Nova Roma's part over Formosanus'
decision to leave, it seems there has been some learning. After two years it
wasn't possible for an accord to be reached. By all means he deserves the
chance to go forth and build something of his own.


>I think that, no matter the constitution, magistrates and senate of our
republic, we should give those rebels a chance too. I know that all of them
LEFT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, so I'm not blaming anyone in particular. I just
blame
all of us, including myself, for not being more open to different opinions.

Cassius:
Nova Roma has in fact been very open to different opinions. Being open to
different opinions involves allowing them to be expressed, debated, and then
either adopting or not adopting them. It does not necessarily mean changing
the very foundations of the overall community to adopt each and every new
opinion. Even if it were desirable to do this it just wouldn't be possible -
Nova Roma has over a thousand citizens, and therefore over a thousand
different points of view. Most of us are able to compromise this and find
common accord - Formosanus could not and that's simply a personal choice.

>With this strange message, I want to prevent us from becoming fixed on
ourselves in contemplating the majesty of our micronation with its more than
1000 members.

Cassius:
Even though I've praised Nova Roma above, I'm certainly not expecting that we
can, (or will) rest on past laurels. Building a community such as this takes
ongoing ideas, commitment, time and effort. I certainly pledge this on behalf
of myself - I feel that Nova Roma is worth it. I hope that others will do so
as well.

>Since our project and ambitions are real and demand a long term -
life long - engagement of our members in order to succeed, it is important to
be open enough for opinions differing 100% from our own. Rebellious forces
are
in one way or another either progressive, either destructive. But isn't all
progression a little bit destruction of the old ways?

Cassius:
Again, Nova Roma is very open to ideas different than it's own. It's
certainly provided Fomosanus and others with a public forum for building and
expressing their own ideas. Now that Formosanus has decided to depart I hope
that all will wish him well.


>I hope that we won't be confronted with 20 organizations fishing in the same
pond of Rome-lovers. That would be the end of the ambitious project of our
Nation!

Cassius:
I hope not as well. It would make the most sense for ALL Roman groups to work
on expanding Romanitas overall, rather than trying to work against one
another. As far as I am aware Nova Roman Citizenship is compatible with all
other group affiliations. (After all, we have many Citizens who are in
various autonomous groups, Legions, etc.) Certainly if the "Societas Via
Romana" ends up a success, it will be something different than Nova Roma in
any case.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1752
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:08:03 -0500

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

I want to add to the remarks of Antonius Corvus by recalling that in the
past Pontifex Graecus and I have had more than our fair share of
disagreements. However, I have always found Graecus to be a gentleman,
willing to consider the views of others, to compromise and also to admit an
error without being resentful. I know I have learned some very valuable
things from Pontifex Graecus, would that we have more citizens like him.

Ave et Gratias tibi ago, mi Graece, Di te ament.

Bene omnibus nobis.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:21:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus and to the
SPQR on the subject of auspices


--- Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> In a message dated 22-11-2001 that formed part of a
> debate between me and
> Pontifex Maximus M. Cassius Iulianus I have remarked
> that Consul Flavius
> Vedius Germanicus should not have taken auspices
> before calling the Senate
> according to the Augural Law. My words have affected
> his Dignitas because
> the Flavius Vedius Germanicus is also an Augur. The
> exchanged words were as
> follows:
>
> >Graecus:
> >As to the Augural policy I still do not see
> magistrates taking auspices,
> > Cassius:
> > Really? Augur Germanicus has taken auspices before
> the various Comitiae
> and Senate meetings, as has augur Cincinnatus...

>SNIP<

> I thus ask you to direct at my person all the damage
> that my unfair and
> betraying words have caused to the Dignitas of
> Consul and Augur Flavius
> Vedius Germanicus, and which could also have
> affected the right observance
> of the Augural Law with all its bad consequences to
> our res publica.
>
> Valete bene
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> Senator and Pontifex
>


Ave Pontifex Graecus, Publicus Popoli Romani et amici,

I wish to personally commend or Pontifex for
giving such an endearing gesture. Not many people have
the dignitas to come before public scrutiny, and admit
a mistake. This, my fellow Nova Romans, must be taken
into full consideration. As our Pontifex Graecus is
obviously a very noble Roman. And should be
continuously held in high regard, as most of us
already do.The gods adore you, Pontifex Graecus.. This
is very obvious.As this Nova Roman has full respect
for your Romanitas.

Dii te ament,
A. Corvus Septimius




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Public Apology to Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus and to the SPQR on the subject of auspices
From:	mark zona <pitdog2002@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:47:14 -0800 (PST)

Salve!


>
Septimius:
> Ave Pontifex Graecus, Publicus Popoli Romani et
> amici,
>
> I wish to personally commend or Pontifex for
> giving such an endearing gesture. Not many people
> have
> the dignitas to come before public scrutiny, and
> admit
> a mistake. This, my fellow Nova Romans, must be
> taken
> into full consideration. As our Pontifex Graecus is
> obviously a very noble Roman. And should be
> continuously held in high regard, as most of us
> already do.The gods adore you, Pontifex Graecus..
> This
> is very obvious.As this Nova Roman has full respect
> for your Romanitas.
>
> Dii te ament,
> A. Corvus Septimius
>
Zeno: Well said, Septimius!

Marcus Antonius Zeno


> __________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma delenda est???
From:	mark zona <pitdog2002@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:41:46 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

Germanicus has raised some intelligent and interesting
points. I wish to throw in my two cents (and that is
all my comments are worth) as I too am a citizen of
Rome and wish to be heard (or at least read).

--- Caius Puteus Germanicus <puteus@-------->
wrote:
> BlankAve Quirites!
>
> I was shocked to see three people having resigned in
> less than 24 hours this morning. I am not saying
> that in each individual case there aren't any good
> reasons for doing so or not, I don't know. I can
> only say that it is indeed a pity for the people
> concerned that they didn't find Nova Roma the best
> vehicle for the realisation of their Roman projects,
> and for us as a community.

Zeno: Yes, to a point I agree. However, no
organization can be all things to all people. I feel
that Nova Roma goes way beyond what most organizations
do in providing multi-faceted avenues for each type of
Roman interest, whether that be religious, political,
cultural, military, even fashion. However, its
greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. Nova
Roma attracts so many different types of people, that
internal conflict and ultimate defection is
inevitable.

Germanicus:
>
> When all these people indeed go to the Societas Via
> Romana, of which Formosanus mentionned the website,
> what have we won? Yes, we finally got rid of those
> critical voices. But what when our micronation keeps
> growing as it is now and the project of becoming a
> respected nation amongst others that are
> macronations now is getting concrete? Will we not
> have to deal with critics then? What are the chances
> a New Rome stands when there are likewise 20 other
> organisations with each 100 members? (SVG mentions
> 25 members on its website)

Zeno: I do not believe that we as a nation ever made
an attempt to get rid of critical voices. We may have
little tolerance for language that is unduly hostile
or disrespectful, but certainly we openly accept
criticism. (did i spell that right?) And if 20 other
micro-Romes rise up because Nova Roma did not bow to
the will of a small faction to the detriment of the
majority, then so be it. You cannot be all things to
all people.

Germanicus:


> I think we have to learn a lesson from this. All of
> you know that I myself am not a rebel and that I try
> to live according to the Romanitas and Dignitas that
> caracterize our nation. But rebellious forces are
> better just not kicked out, in the worst case just
> left alone (by deleting messages as Senator Sulla
> mentionned).

Zeno: No one kicked anyone out, these were defections.
And those defections did not occur do to a lack of
voice, but due to an ability do bend Nova Roma in
accordance their will.

Germanicus:

We should offer them a forum for
> ventilating their opinions too.

Zeno: There is such a forum, and they have used it to
vent.

What to think of the
> cynics in the Ancient world, not very nice guys to
> talk too, but still members of society. The early
> christians weren't liked very much too, but they
> still maintained civis or at least still played a
> role in social life. This led to an integration in
> Roman society in which they contributed in their own
> way. Hitler's holocaust was based on racial grounds,
> but during history there have been several of these
> actions. In the Middle Ages, Jews were kicked out of
> Spain and Portugal for having a different
> religion/opinion. Have we not learned anything than?

Zeno: I do not find the defection of three
discontented citizens to be on par with the holocaust,
not do I see any connection whatsoever. These were not
persecuted people. These were people who, right or
wrong, wanted more control over an organization and
found it easier to start there own outright rather
than work within the system to obtain their ends.
>
Germanicus:

> I think that, no matter the constitution,
> magistrates and senate of our republic, we should
> give those rebels a chance too. I know that all of
> them LEFT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, so I'm not blaming
> anyone in particular. I just blame all of us,
> including myself, for not being more open to
> different opinions.

Zeno: I do not accept blame for this, though I am
included in the all that are blamed. It is not my
responsibility to subjugate my rights and opinions in
order to appease the rights and opinion of others. If
that is expected of me, then I will be the one who
defects.

>Germanicus:

> With this strange message, I want to prevent us from
> becoming fixed on ourselves in contemplating the
> majesty of our micronation with its more than 1000
> members. Since our project and ambitions are real
> and demand a long term - life long - engagement of
> our members in order to succeed, it is important to
> be open enough for opinions differing 100% from our
> own. Rebellious forces are in one way or another
> either progressive, either destructive. But isn't
> all progression a little bit destruction of the old
> ways?

Zeno: Yes indeed! That is right out of the Upanishads.
"There is no creation without destruction, and no
destruction without creation." Not Roman, but I like
it :)

Germanicus:
>
> I hope that we won't be confronted with 20
> organizations fishing in the same pond of
> Rome-lovers. That would be the end of the ambitious
> project of our Nation!
>
Zeno: Nor do I, Germanicus, but at what cost? Must we
appease absolutely every discontented citizen at the
expense of everyone else just to keep the numbers up?
Would not that cause more defections? How much can the
minority oppress the majority under the banner of
"tolerance" before the majority leaves? I for one do
not want to be dictated to by people who have a "my
way or the highway" philosophy. And that is really
what happened here. Somebody failed to form all of us
into his image. And went looking for better clay to
mold with.

Vale Bene!

Marcus Antonius Zeno>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia Greetings!
From:	Valerian75@--------
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:28:23 EST

Salvete!

I want to wish everyone a safe, blessed, and fruitful Saturnalia. May the
Gods watch over and protect you and yours.

Valete,
Lucia Ambrosia Valeria
Valerian75@--------




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma delenda est? NEGAT!!! :)
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:51:48 -0500

Salve Consul Marcus Cassius,

>cassius622@-------- at cassius622@-------- wrote:
>
> Cassius respondit:
> While such things are never pleasant, there's no need for shock. This happens
> in all large organizations. People come, people go - and there are almost as
> many reasons for this as there are people.
>
> Happily, as with most long term communities, the vast majority of folks that
> join Nova Roma stay here. We've never gained less than 20 Citizens in a
> month, (even through the Sept. 11th crisis!) and we average far less than 20
> citizens announcing their departure in a *year*. That's a better ratio than
> in most of the public organizations right here in the town I live in, so I'm
> optimistic about things. :)
>

I see what you are saying, but how many of these citizens are actually
active in the community. The citizens that truly contribute are those that
socialise and express personal ideas etc. To get a true view of the health
of this nation's population you must compare those *active* citizens
arriving to those that are departing.

We may have over a thousand citizens, although I doubt that all of them even
consider themselves to be Nova Roman. Only a few hundred currently play a
role in the development of our mission. The rest are just names. When we
discuss population we should keep this in the back of our minds.

>
> When all these people indeed go to the Societas Via Romana, of which
> Formosanus mentionned the website, what have we won? Yes, we finally got rid
> of those critical voices. But what when our micronation keeps growing as it
> is now and
> the project of becoming a respected nation amongst others that are
> macronations

I find it sad that we cannot come together. Our basic mission is the same.
We just have different views on how to get to our goals. I hope that
Societas Via Romana and Nova Roma will be able to come together on our basic
goals that are still identical.

>
> And, I firmly believe that there eventually WILL be 20 other Roman
> organizations out there. That is simply human nature. The thing to remember
> is that such a state of affairs will be a great victory for Nova Roma, not a
> defeat.

This is an interesting view. I do believe that we are seeing this trend
develop into a reality. I know of three other organisations that stem off of
Nova Roma. Two are complete failures, and seem to focus on recreating
imperial Rome. Unsurprisingly the only citizens residing in these
organisations are the "emperors". The Societas Via Romana looks like it has
potential, we may have some competition in the comming years. =)

> Cassius:
> Nova Roma has in fact been very open to different opinions. Being open to
> different opinions involves allowing them to be expressed, debated, and then
> either adopting or not adopting them. It does not necessarily mean changing
> the very foundations of the overall community to adopt each and every new
> opinion. Even if it were desirable to do this it just wouldn't be possible -
> Nova Roma has over a thousand citizens, and therefore over a thousand
> different points of view. Most of us are able to compromise this and find
> common accord - Formosanus could not and that's simply a personal choice.
>

I agree, you won't go far in Roman politics unless you can build a base
through compromising. It seems as if Formosanus over looked this fact or
failed to accept it.

> Cassius:
> Again, Nova Roma is very open to ideas different than it's own. It's
> certainly provided Fomosanus and others with a public forum for building and
> expressing their own ideas. Now that Formosanus has decided to depart I hope
> that all will wish him well.

Formosanus may have different political opinions. Although, he does intend
well, and I am sure that Societas Via Romana will benefit from his
dedication.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Please visit my campaign website at:
http://www.virtue.nu/amclaudius/index.htm

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma delenda est? Negat!
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:02:53 +0100

Salvete omnes,

Well, I am quite surprised! I would publicly like to thank Consul Cassius
and a few others who have spoken positive words about cooperation,
tolerance, and said some good things about the Societas Via Romana (which I
am a member of, myself, but I guess you'd figure that out anyway :)). I
truly hope that at some level we manage to cooperate in a spirit of
Romanitas. I believe in pluralism, hence my multiple membership.

Valete bene!
S. Apollonius Draco

<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NovaRoma News Magazine?
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:17:50 -0500

Salve G. Noviodunus Ferriculus,

>G. Noviodunus Ferriculus at Gaius.Noviodunus@-------- wrote:
>
> So I was thinking that maybe someone wants to start an _independent_
> Nova Roma News magazine, that could bring to a broader public the events
> of Nova Roma and important topics discussed in the main list. Especially
> during election times I'd expect from this kind of News magazine to
> inform me on the candidates, providing interviews with them so I can see
> what opinion they have in this or that matter.

You may find the "official" newsletter of Nova Roma the Eagle something like
this. Although it is not independent. Are you talking about a web based
ezine, or something else? I can see how this could prove quite useful, but
having it completely independent would be impossible. All citizens are
involved in politics in one way or another. The only way to have a truly
independent publication is for it to be written by a non-citizen who cannot
vote. I don't think a non-citizen would have a full understanding of our
issues.

Vale,

"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Candidate for Aediles Curules
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia

Please visit my campaign website at:
http://www.virtue.nu/amclaudius/index.htm

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--

Subject:	[novaroma] Virtutes
From:	"Gnaeus Octavius Noricus" <cn.octavius.noricus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:10:29 +0100

Salvete Quirites

I'd like to sart a new thread since I've read too much about politics here in the last weeks.

I stumbled over two sentences Quintus Fabius Maximus wrote in one of his recent posts:
"How Roman is that?" and "Two things that ancient Rome had that allowed them to conquer the western world, determination and courage."

Our honoured Consul Cassius wrote in his most recent post: "I hope not as well. It would make the most sense for ALL Roman groups to work
on expanding Romanitas overall"

These sentences fitted to something I was wondering about: Which are the most important Roman virtues we should put into practice in our daily lives (NR and non-NR)? I invite you to name the three virtues that seem most important to you. Maybe it's good to check http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html before making up one's mind.

Here are my "favourite" virtues:
1 - Pietas (fulfilling one's duties in all respects: social, religious, political (go voting :-) etc. )
2 - Firmitas (after having made up one's mind, not backing down if there arise unforeseen problems)
3 - (Not on the list) A certain willingness to learn from others, for example: The Romans got their alphabet and most of their architecture from the Etruscans and the Greek. When they met foreign cultures, they incorporated what they could need into their own; they knew they weren't perfect, so they always wanted to become better. - I don't know if there is an authentic name for this virtue.

I wish you all a nice weekend!
Valete
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Sulla Felix (616-676)
From:	"Caius Puteus Germanicus" <puteus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:42:50 +0100

BlankSalve Quirites!

I have just completed a new essay on dictator Sulla (no, not our newly to be elected consul, of course) and placed it on the website. Please have a peak:

www.geocities.com/Caius_Puteus_Germanicus/sulla.html

with a special wink to Senator Sulla, of course!

I am still working on a text on Brutus soon to be completed as well. After that and the duties the office of Rogator imposes, I will stress on Philosophy as Scriba Explorator of our Academia and on the following of our local media in order to find out what Romanitas is living in the region of Germania Inferior as Cooperator of the Sodalitas Egressus.

To discuss this and other essays, please use the forum NRHumanitas@--------

Have a nice weekend!!

Vale optime in pace deorum!

Caius Puteus Germanicus
Lictor
Rogator MMDXXIV AUC
Scriba Explorator Academiae Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque Occidentalis
Civis Provinciae Novae Romae Galliae / Germaniae Inferioris
http://www.geocities.com/germania_inferior/
http://www.geocities.com/caius_puteus_germanicus/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NovaRoma News Magazine?
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 00:00:40 +0100

Salve Amuli Claudi Petre,

On 12/15/01 10:17 PM, Amulius Claudius Petrus wrote:

> Salve G. Noviodunus Ferriculus,
>
> You may find the "official" newsletter of Nova Roma the Eagle something like
> this. Although it is not independent.


I haven't seen The Eagle yet, but not being independent is the problem.
Actually it is the Official Newsletter of NovaRoma, which appears 10
times a year (http://www.novaroma.org/forum_romanum.html#eagle).

> Are you talking about a web based ezine, or something else?


Sorry if this was not clear, but of course I thought of a web ezine,
unlike The Eagle, which is printed. And ideally, this ezine should be
published weekly.

> I can see how this could prove quite useful, but
> having it completely independent would be impossible. All citizens are
> involved in politics in one way or another. The only way to have a truly
> independent publication is for it to be written by a non-citizen who cannot
> vote. I don't think a non-citizen would have a full understanding of our
> issues.

Hmmm well, voting doesn't mean you are not independent. And independent
doesn't mean you have no opinion either. For me, politically involved
means to be in charge of an officium, (senator, propraetor, consul
etc...) What would you think if George W. Bush was the Director of CNN?

Vale bene,

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum