| Subject: |
[novaroma] RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:37:17 EST |
|
Salvete Omnes,
Here are the results of the runoff elections for Praetor and Quaestor.
We have one Praetor and two Quaestors elected; unfortunately this leaves us
with only one elected Praetor. This will require a *second* runoff election
after the first of the year, of course that election must be conducted by our
incoming Consuls.
No doubt the last runoff election for Praetor will be easy enough to get
through... and hopefully the election system can be modified somewhat so that
these runoff elections are not needed next year.
My thanks to the Rogators for their hard work, and to the Citizens that
voted. Congratulations to the winners; I'm sure you will do wonderfully!
ELECTION RESULTS:
C Centuriata (132 centuries voted, need half + one)
* Praetor
- Pompeia Cornelia Strabo 72
- Titus Labienus Fortunatus 52 (50 + 2 tied ones, decided upon by lot
between TLF and QFM since both are pater familias)
- Quintus Fabius Maximus 39 (37 + 2 tied ones, decided upon by lot between
TLF and QFM since both are pater familias)
The vote for Gaius Geminus Germanius is invalid, since he doesn't qualify
for the office of Praetor
=> Pompeia Cornelia wins
C Populi
* Rogator (35 tribes voted, need half + one)
- M. Bianchius Antonius 13 + 4 cast by lot
- P. Domitianus Artorius Longinus 12 + 6 cast by lot
=> P. Domitianus wins
* Quaestor (35 voted, need half + one)
G. Minucius Hadrianus 32
G. Popilius Laenas 28
G. Geminus Germanus 1 cast by lot (since both GPL and GGG are pater
familias)
=> both G. Minucius and G. Popilius win
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:04:30 -0500 |
|
Salve Pompeia Cornelia,
Congratulations on being elected Pompeia! I am very happy to see the people
of Nova Roma selected you for this job. Maybe we could organise something
together this summer, the Ludi Apollinares was run by the Praetors after
all. =)
Vale,
"Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Aedile Curule Elect
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
--
> ELECTION RESULTS:
>
> C Centuriata (132 centuries voted, need half + one)
> * Praetor
> - Pompeia Cornelia Strabo 72
> - Titus Labienus Fortunatus 52 (50 + 2 tied ones, decided upon by lot
> between TLF and QFM since both are pater familias)
> - Quintus Fabius Maximus 39 (37 + 2 tied ones, decided upon by lot between
> TLF and QFM since both are pater familias)
> The vote for Gaius Geminus Germanius is invalid, since he doesn't qualify
> for the office of Praetor
> => Pompeia Cornelia wins
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
"Caius Cornelius Puteanus" <puteus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:37:26 +0100 |
|
Salve, Honorable Franciscus Caesar Apulus!
First of all: happy New Year to you too!!!
You have touched a lot of problems, the inactive cives, the census to be
held, the structure of the state.
Let me clear my point of view on the 'democratic' part.
1. Nova ROMA tries to recreate the Roman Republic
2. The Roman Republic wasn't 'democratic' in the modern sense of the word
3. Yet Roma had a system that was in some way very accurate, please check on
Polybius Book VI
4. Even though the system of Roma antiqua wasn't intended to be democratic
as in 1/1 vote, it was intended for the best of the People of Rome (please
check Polybius again)
5. Since the intention is 'for the best of all people involved' and the
voting system isn't so malformed because of the low number of active voters
which leave very few centuriae in which there are really 4 voters, I still
consider it a democratic state as described above.
6. Of course you have the right to disagree, and I see you do ;-)) but that
is all the more Roman to do, isn't it?
7. I just don't see any reason to reform the system as it stands into
something SVR has done: abolish all assemblies and just keep 'one' Comitia
(comitia is plural) in which is voted 1/1. To me you can consider this an
anochronism i.e. historical rape. I don't want the res publica to do this
with its noble ancestors...
8. And even though it is correct that the system evolved during the 500 y.
of its existence, it changed very SLOWLY so... please don't 'rape' the
system because our present day world is so called democratic! I can tell you
your vote counts much more in our system than it does in the so called
democracies. There you elect Parliament, you are not a member of it, they
create and vote leges, and you have to obey to them. Here you vote directly
for or against leges, which is all the more 'for the good of the people'!
IMHO, we may differ in interpretation (how the system should work) but we do
agree on one thing: it is the historical system of the Republic and it isn't
so bad at all, if you check out the sources and consider especially point 8!
And now I can even wish you a 'democratic' New Year ;-)))
Vale bene!
Caius Cornelius Puteanus
www.geocities.com/puteanus/
www.geocities.com/Germania_Inferior/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Cc: <nr_populares@-------->
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar omnibus S.P.D.
>
> From Encilopedia Generale Mondadori and Giovanni Sartori - Columbia
> University (NY) [sorry for the translation]:
> "Democracy is a principle legitimacy, is an ideal, is a politic system
where
> the power is of the people....
> The power is legitimated, conditioneted and revoked by free, equal and
> periodically elections.... The democracy don't accept the power comes to
the
> force....
> In a democracy all the members have the same rights, powers,
possibilities."
>
> From Oxford Dictionary:
> "dem.oc.racy /dmkrsi; AmE -mk-/ noun (pl. -ies)
> 1 [U] a system of government in which all the people of a country can vote
> to elect their representatives: parliamentary democracy the principles of
> democracy
> 2 [C] a country which has this system of government: Western democracies
I
> thought we were supposed to be living in a democracy.
> 3 [U] fair and equal treatment of everyone in an organization, etc., and
> their right to take part in making decisions: the fight for justice and
> democracy "
>
> From Merriam Webster's Dictionary:
> "de·moc·ra·cy
> Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from
Greek
> dEmokratia, from dEmos + -kratia -cracy
> Date: 1576
> 1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a
> government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and
exercised
> by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually
> involving periodically held free elections
> .....
> 5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or
privileges"
>
> This is my PERSONAL idea of democracy too.
> IMHO a democracy election system is based on the "1 person / 1 vote".
There
> isn't democracy when my vote value 1/4 of a Magistrate's vote. Democracy
> isn't class division but equal opportunity to all the citizens not being
of
> a "superior" class. Ancient Rome was *democratic* maybe only in the late
Res
> Publica, when patrician were equal to plebeian. But Nova Roma want to
> re-nact not this period. Something of this political system was perfect
2000
> years ago and Ancient Rome lived for many time because it was as
"flexible"
> as able to change with the events and time. Now we live in a "democratic"
> world where a system like NR is un-democratic and we must be able to
change
> ourself like Ancient Rome. You don't see the real mean of this word and
how
> Nova Roma could present as a real nation to the world if our democracy is
> different by the modern and universally accepted idea? We have to "conquer
> th world" not by the army but by the ideas and our general idea is back
from
> 2000 years.
> I talked about another "democratic society" because Nova Roma is not my
> PERSONAL idea of democracy and not just in the election system.
>
> > The leges ruling the Comitiae are faithful to Roma antiqua and try to
> reward
> > those who actively contribute to the fulfillment of our mission. So,
> please
> > let the 'undemocratic' argument drop, it has very little value here...
>
> No because this is my personal idea and my right. The democracy is freedom
> of speach and thing.
> IMHO The Democracy Content haven't so "little value here" because there
are
> many people thing like me and talk not here. And IMHO SVR is the signal of
a
> (maybe little) discontent of this "imaginated oligarchic system". Many
> people go out from NR for this, I'm here trying to open the politic mind
of
> some people (I'm here to search, learn and grow myelf too).
> And you must remember there was a lot of men thinging "different" in
Ancient
> Rome and they changed the histiry. :-)
>
> > I explicitely didn't reply to this person to not make this into
something
> > personal, it is merely meant as a light consideration to become a bit
more
> > realistic ;-)
>
> About the policy I'm realistic more of all of you! ;-)))
>
> About the low number of centuries voting I thing the number of Nova Romans
> isn't correct and real. We must do a census of the active people to
> understand the real number of citizens. How many people are yet interest
to
> Nova Roma? How many people are real active? How many people are interest
to
> continue to be citizen? After we could cancel the citizenship of the
people
> incative more than 12 months, for example.
>
> Happy new "democratic" year ;-)))))))))))))
>
> P.S.: This is my personal and maybe wrong ideas as simple Nova Roman
> citizen
>
> Valete
> Franciscus Caesar Apulus
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] EDICTUM CURATORIS ARANEUM |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:50:17 -0600 (CST) |
|
EX DOMO CURATORIS ARANEUM M. OCTAVII GERMANICE
ante diem IV Kal. Ianuarii MMDCCLIV a.u.c.
This edict is effective immediately and shall remain in effect
throughout the year MMDCCLV a.u.c.
I. Franciscus Apulus Caesar is appointed Scriba Curatoris Araneum.
II. Julilla Sempronia Magna is appointed Scriba Curatoris Araneum.
III. The Curule Aediles are invited to participate, ex officio,
in the maintenance and design of the Nova Roma web site.
M. Octavius Germanicus, Curator.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Curator Araneum et Senator, Nova Roma
Senior Consul-Elect, MMDCCLV (2002)
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:40:58 +0100 |
|
Salvete Winners!
I want to warmly congratulate the winners in the latest elections!
Congratulations to:
Praetor and Propraetor Illustrus Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Rogator Illustrus Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus
Quaestor Illustrus Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
Quaestor Illustrus Gaius Popillius Laenas
Welcome among the next years magistrates! We will be the winners in many
ways! Next Year may be a excellent year! ;-)
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Curule Aedile designatus
still Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that doesn't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Consular End of Year Speech |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:59:23 EST |
|
Salvete Omnes,
As the year 2754 draws to a close, I would like to share a few words before I
officially end my second term as Junior Consul of Nova Roma on midnight, Dec
31st.
It has been an honor to work with and for the Citizens of Nova Roma this past
year. I have been constantly impressed with the people who have gathered here
to participate in the efforts to rebuild a historically accurate Roman
community. The enthusiasm, efforts, ideals and ideas presented by both 'old'
and 'new' Citizens this year have been truly inspiring. You folks are the
reason why Nova Roma was created, and you are the reason why the Republic is
still strong and worth the effort to continue. I look forward to working
among you as a 'privatus' in the months to come with genuine pleasure.
This year has been much like the previous years of Nova Roma - a mixture of
challenges and successes. I believe our Republic has emerged stronger at the
end of this year than it entered at the beginning. That is as much as any
community of people can reasonably hope to accomplish.
There has been a good deal of continued building on the basic infrastructure
of Nova Roma. Our organization, laws, policies, web presence, and Religio
participation have all been expanded and improved. More importantly, many new
goals and projects have already been established for the new year!
I personally hold more enthusiasm for the coming year than I had at the
beginning of last year. In the Kalends of January there was a political storm
brewing, and it was difficult to see beyond that to new opportunities. We
managed to weather those issues and do many positive things in spite of them.
Now that we have worked past them, we can concentrate on "things Roman," and
I am gladdened at the prospect!
Although I will hold no elected office in the coming year, there are many
projects in which I hope to be involved. These include:
1. Expanding the infrastructure of the Religio Romana in Nova Roma. We now
have a better knowledge and activity base than at any time in the past; this
next year we can look forward to better public information, more public
religious events, and a more active Priesthood.
2. Working to build the cultural infrastructure of Nova Roma by expanding the
number of Sodalitates, and working to make these interest groups more
valuable to their members and to the larger community.
3. Working to promote the ideal of Nova Roma as a sovereignty project,
organization and community dedicated to rebuilding *historical* Roman
religion, culture and society.
4. Working to improve our political structure by helping interested Citizens
prepare to occupy magisterial positions, and also helping to improve our laws
and procedures.
5. Having fun and *enjoying* our Roman community. I'm here for "things Roman"
just like everyone else, and I vow to take the time to be involved in
participating in various aspects of NR just to enjoy them.
There are many people I would like to thank for making this year a good one;
my Co-Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus for his hard work and quality
achievements, Antonius Gryllus Graecus and the rest of the Pontiffs of Nova
Roma for their work in helping the Religio Romana to flourish again, Marcus
Octavius Germanicus for his wonderful work on the NR website, Lucius
Cornelius Sulla for his endless participation in all aspects of NR, Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo for her continual kind and thoughtful words and deeds, Marcus
Minucius Audens for his public participation and efforts in the Sodalitates,
and many more folks than I could hope to list. (Gods, there are a LOT of Nova
Romans around these days!!!)
May the Gods and Goddesses of Rome guard and guide Nova Roma in the coming
year. May they grant to us a prosperous and successful 2755 AUC, and may they
continue to give their favor to the bond of Romanitas that has brought and
kept us together for the past four years! AVE NOVA ROMA!!!
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:31:46 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Hispanici; et salve, Cai Corneli.
I have a few comments to your last post, if you don't mind:
--- Caius Cornelius Puteanus <puteus@--------> wrote:
> Salve, Honorable Franciscus Caesar Apulus!
>
> First of all: happy New Year to you too!!!
> You have touched a lot of problems, the inactive cives, the census to
> be
> held, the structure of the state.
>
> Let me clear my point of view on the 'democratic' part.
> 1. Nova ROMA tries to recreate the Roman Republic
As best as possible. However, sometimes we have to make a few
concessions to modern times. Nova Roma has no slavery, no women
discrimination, no belligerant attitudes. These changes are extremely
reasonable and necessary.
> 2. The Roman Republic wasn't 'democratic' in the modern sense of the
> word
The Roman Republic had slavery, Roman women were *legally*
discriminated, and war was hardly continuous.
> 3. Yet Roma had a system that was in some way very accurate, please
> check on
> Polybius Book VI
Vey accurate? What do you mean?
> 4. Even though the system of Roma antiqua wasn't intended to be
> democratic
> as in 1/1 vote, it was intended for the best of the People of Rome
> (please
> check Polybius again)
Sometimes, the People of Rome did not think that their current system
was for their best. They expelled the kings because of that. They
created new institutions (tribuni plebis, aediles plebeii) and enacted
new laws because of that.
> 5. Since the intention is 'for the best of all people involved' and
> the
> voting system isn't so malformed because of the low number of active
> voters
> which leave very few centuriae in which there are really 4 voters, I
> still
> consider it a democratic state as described above.
However, in principle, it is *not* so democratic. In the future, when
our active citizenry is counted by thousands, our system will become
*very* undemocratic, according to your own description.
> 6. Of course you have the right to disagree, and I see you do ;-))
> but that
> is all the more Roman to do, isn't it?
Franciscus Apulus Caesar has more rights than to simply disagree. May I
simply remind you of a very famous quote from one of America's greatest
politicians? Check out for Thomas Jefferson.
> 7. I just don't see any reason to reform the system as it stands into
> something SVR has done: abolish all assemblies and just keep 'one'
> Comitia
> (comitia is plural) in which is voted 1/1. To me you can consider
> this an
> anochronism i.e. historical rape. I don't want the res publica to do
> this
> with its noble ancestors...
That is not the sole possible solution. We could try to keep as many
elements as possible from the original Roman Republic, while trying to
adapt those institutions to a modern environment.
And, speaking of anachronisms, there are *many* in Nova Roma. To begin
with, our gens system has *nothing* to do with the original Roman
familiar institution. Our current percentage of patrician citizens is a
*huge* anachronism. And our current political system is *more*
conservative, in some aspects, than the Roman Republic herself.
> 8. And even though it is correct that the system evolved during the
> 500 y.
> of its existence, it changed very SLOWLY so... please don't 'rape'
> the
> system because our present day world is so called democratic! I can
> tell you
> your vote counts much more in our system than it does in the so
> called
> democracies. There you elect Parliament, you are not a member of it,
> they
> create and vote leges, and you have to obey to them. Here you vote
> directly
> for or against leges, which is all the more 'for the good of the
> people'!
Then go ahead and vote a political party in your macronation that is
against parliamentary democracy.
You know, in many parts of the world we still remember when our
countries were not parliamentary democracies. Believe me, we don't miss
that status.
> IMHO, we may differ in interpretation (how the system should work)
> but we do
> agree on one thing: it is the historical system of the Republic and
> it isn't
> so bad at all, if you check out the sources and consider especially
> point 8!
Our differences, like it always happens here, lay in where we draw the
line between Roman historical reconstruction and modern convenience.
Many people have suggested in this very same list that our gens system
should not be reformed to drive it closer to historical practice
because it would be too inconvenient. Surprisingly, many of these very
same people are willing to overcome any inconvinience to keep a version
of the Roman political system which is far more conservative than the
late Republican system.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: On Precedents as a menace |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <pokrock@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 03:05:05 -0000 |
|
Salve,
> And no; Augustus did *not* embraced tradition. He destroyed the
> Republican system.
Hate to nay say that, but in modern terms, Augustus merely "pulled
the plug" on the "cancer riddled corpse" of the Republican system.
Sulla unfortunately in giving near total ruling power to the Senate
gave it to a body that enjoyed the trappings of power but proved too
weak willed to exercise that power. The Republican system "died"
when the assembly of the tribes handed over Rome to the privatus
Pompeius on a silver plater just to tweek the nose of the Senate.
While Marius may have used the assembly to gain himself the
Jugurathan war, it was given to Marius the consul, not Marius the
privatus. The Senate proved too weak willed to reign in Pompeius
then threw their lot in with him against Caesar and we know how that
all played out....
Pax,
Quintus Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Congratulations!! |
| From: |
"luciuspompeius" <danielovi@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 03:22:19 -0000 |
|
Salvete
My most sincere congratulations to the winners of the recent
elections. I wish you all the best fortune!!. You´ll do an
outstanding job!
Valete
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:27:45 EST |
|
Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:
And, speaking of anachronisms, there are *many* in Nova Roma. To begin
with, our gens system has *nothing* to do with the original Roman
familiar institution.
Cassius respondit:
It seems to me that our current Gens system is as close to the original Roman
family institution as is possible under modern circumstances.
The largest break with tradition is that ALL of our Gens have been formed
through a sort of 'co-adoption' rather than being founded on blood
relationships. That is something that was completely (and hopefully
understandibly) unavoidable at the founding. Surely as time goes on there
will be more births in Nova Roma and familial ties will begin to be
introduced... until then we're stuck with what we can do.
The other major break with history in the NR Gentes is that we've developed a
tendency to manifest the Gentes as cohesive groups rather than individual
families who happen to share the same name. This also was something difficult
to avoid - we're spread wide georgraphically but yet also in close
communication by the Internet. Organization has crept in due to these
conditions that did not exist in Roma antiqua. I believe this can also be
solved with a little time.
This year, for instance, the Gens Cassia will be focusing more on the
independant familiae, and we hope to set a working example which other Gentes
might adopt in the future. I am firm in the belief that the overall goal of
Nova Roma is to be more historical with the Gentes as well... even if it's
somethig that can't be forced overnight.
Salix Astur:
> Our current percentage of patrician citizens is a
*huge* anachronism.
Cassius:
This is another situation that has grown out of modern circumstances. A
decent enough foundation was set... provision for 30 Patrician Gentes and
provision for an *infinite* amount of Plebian gentes. What nobody foresaw was
that we'd have a lot of very active Patricians that would do a lot of
adopting. Even with that the ratio of Patricians versus Plebians will no
doubt become more 'accurate' over time. The number of Plebian Gentes will
continue to grow, and the ratio between the Patricians and Plebians widens
with each passing month. Again, no reason to 'blame' Nova Roma for the
situation not being completely accurate from moment one.
Salix Astur:
>And our current political system is *more*
conservative, in some aspects, than the Roman Republic herself.
Cassius:
And in many respects Nova Roma is far *less* conservative than Roma Antiqua.
Neither is a particular cause for anger or rancour... Nova Roma is young and
we're just people doing the best we can.
Salix Astur:
>Our differences, like it always happens here, lay in where we draw the
line between Roman historical reconstruction and modern convenience.
Cassius:
My belief is that the line is between historical reconstruction and practical
possiblity, not merely 'convenience'.
Salix Astur:
Many people have suggested in this very same list that our gens system
should not be reformed to drive it closer to historical practice
because it would be too inconvenient.
Cassius:
It seems to me that there is more to the situation. The only 'change' to the
gens system that has been advocated so far was a piece of legislation that
would have radically affected a good number of things. Not only gens
structure, but also basic Citizenship, the rights of the Pater/Materfamiliae,
and more. I'm all for more historical gentes myself, but yet did not support
that particular suggestion.
In my own opinion more focus on the indivdual 'familiae', (individual
households that happen to share a Gens name) is a major solution toward
bringing the Gentes into a more historical form.
Salix Astur:
Surprisingly, many of these very
same people are willing to overcome any inconvinience to keep a version
of the Roman political system which is far more conservative than the
late Republican system.
Cassius:
I've come to this discussion late so I may be missing some of its finer
points. From what I've seen it's a discussion of the "one man, one vote"
ideal that, as far as I know, was *never* a part of Roman history in any era.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Oath of Office |
| From: |
"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:43:15 -0500 |
|
Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dictit:
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus(Adrian Gunn) do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian
Gunn) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never
to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to
the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Quaestor and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
Valete,
C. Minucius Hadrianus
Quaestor
Lictor Curiatus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
ICQ# 28924742
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Oath of Office |
| From: |
"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:49:50 -0500 |
|
Salve!
Whoops - sorry! =) Just attribute it to my boundless enthusiasm! *lol*
Vale,
C. Minucius Hadrianus
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 10:24 PM
To: C. Minucius Hadrianus
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office
Ave,
You are a bit ahead on the Oath...we dont take office til New Years day.
:)
Vale,
Sulla
"C. Minucius Hadrianus" wrote:
Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dictit:
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus(Adrian Gunn) do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian
Gunn) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never
to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to
the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Quaestor and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
Valete,
C. Minucius Hadrianus
Quaestor
Lictor Curiatus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
ICQ# 28924742
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Thanks and Congratulations! |
| From: |
"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:51:00 -0500 |
|
Salvete!
I would just like to offer my sincere thanks to all of the citizens who
cast their vote for me, and my congratulations to all my newly elected
fellow magistrates! I look forward to working with you all in the coming
year, which I'm sure will be Nova Roma's best yet! Ave!
Valete,
C. Minucius Hadrianus
Quaestor Elect
Lictor Curiatus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
ICQ# 28924742
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 03:58:06 -0000 |
|
---
Salve Amuli Claudi:
Thank you so much for your kind words. I am as equally happy for you
in your victory!
And you bet! We will have a festival this summer.
I will do my utmost for the res publica in my capacity as Governor and
Praetrix. I promise.
Many, many thanks to all who supported me.
Vale,
Pompeia
In novaroma@--------, Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@b...> wrote:
>
> Salve Pompeia Cornelia,
>
> Congratulations on being elected Pompeia! I am very happy to see the
people
> of Nova Roma selected you for this job. Maybe we could organise
something
> together this summer, the Ludi Apollinares was run by the Praetors
after
> all. =)
>
> Vale,
>
> "Quamquam cupido sit delictum ab suis crebro est mater virtutum"
> "Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of
virtues"
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Aedile Curule Elect
> Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
> Retarius Officium Gens Claudia
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>
> Canada Orientalis Website:
> www25.brinkster.com/canorien/
>
> Gens Claudia Website:
> www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
> --
>
>
>
>
> > ELECTION RESULTS:
> >
> > C Centuriata (132 centuries voted, need half + one)
> > * Praetor
> > - Pompeia Cornelia Strabo 72
> > - Titus Labienus Fortunatus 52 (50 + 2 tied ones, decided upon by
lot
> > between TLF and QFM since both are pater familias)
> > - Quintus Fabius Maximus 39 (37 + 2 tied ones, decided upon by lot
between
> > TLF and QFM since both are pater familias)
> > The vote for Gaius Geminus Germanius is invalid, since he doesn't
qualify
> > for the office of Praetor
> > => Pompeia Cornelia wins
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 03:59:21 -0000 |
|
---Gratias Tibi Ago, Propraetor Thule Caeso Fabius!
Pompeia
In novaroma@--------, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@t...>
wrote:
> Salvete Winners!
>
> I want to warmly congratulate the winners in the latest elections!
>
> Congratulations to:
>
> Praetor and Propraetor Illustrus Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> Rogator Illustrus Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus
> Quaestor Illustrus Gaius Minucius Hadrianus
> Quaestor Illustrus Gaius Popillius Laenas
>
> Welcome among the next years magistrates! We will be the winners in
many
> ways! Next Year may be a excellent year! ;-)
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Senior Curule Aedile designatus
> still Quaestor of Nova Roma
> Propraetor of Thule
>
> The Opinions expressed are my own,
> and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
> ************************************************
> The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
> http://thule.novaroma.org/
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> "Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
> ************************************************
> Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
> ************************************************
> Using a keyboard that doesn't want to make L! :-(
> ************************************************
> PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Congratulations!! |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:01:55 -0000 |
|
--- Gratias, Luci Pompe :)
Po
In novaroma@--------, "luciuspompeius" <danielovi@--------> wrote:
> Salvete
> My most sincere congratulations to the winners of the recent
> elections. I wish you all the best fortune!!. You´ll do an
> outstanding job!
> Valete
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Oath of Office |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 04:04:03 -0000 |
|
--- Congratulations Legatus NovaBritannia et Quaestor C. Hadrianus
Minucius. I am so happy for you!
Po
In novaroma@--------, "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> Gaius Minucius Hadrianus Quiritibus Salutem Plurimam Dictit:
>
> I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus(Adrian Gunn) do hereby solemnly swear to
> uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
> interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
> As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian
> Gunn) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
> dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
> life.
>
> I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) swear to uphold and defend
> the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear
never
> to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State
Religion.
>
> I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) swear to protect and
defend
> the Constitution of Nova Roma.
>
> I, Gaius Minucius Hadrianus (Adrian Gunn) further swear to fulfill
the
> obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to
> the best of my abilities.
>
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
> Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
> do I accept the position of Quaestor and all the rights,
> privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Quaestor
> Lictor Curiatus
> Legate of Massachusetts
> Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
>
>
> ICQ# 28924742
>
> "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Reflections on my term as Consul |
| From: |
"mariuscorneliusscipio" <nramos@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 06:34:22 -0000 |
|
Salve Flave Vedi Germanice!
Thank you for your service, and for your honest and sincere efforts
to make Nova Roma a better place. Since it's founding, you have
worked long (and sometimes bitter) hours to create the edifice which
we now are building upon. Gratias multas tibi ago, mi Germanice.
Optime vale in pace Deorum,
Marius Cornelius Scipio
--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> This past year has been one of profound change for Nova Roma, as
well as
> profound change in my own perception of the Republic. It is with
some pride
> I point to the legacy of my year as Consul: the election-system
reforms,
> amendments to the Constitution currently being voted for
ratification by the
> Senate, the establishment of a sound fiscal base for our Republic
through
> the estbalishment of annual dues, the blossoming of face-to-face
meetings,
> the establishment of the Sodalitas Munerum to develop our own
gladiatorial
> games to add color and drama to our events, and the departure of
those
> disruptive individuals who did not share our dream of rebuilding the
> Republic. I consider my term of office a success, and believe that
I leave
> our Republic a better place than it was a year ago.
>
> With that, I find myself both profoundly tired and drawn to my
family and
> other non-NR facets of my life, and am retiring to private life. I
am both
> pleased and honored to retain my seat in the Senate, and will as
time and
> inclination allows offer such comments and wisdom as I may on the
business
> that finds itself before that August Body. You may not see me here
or in the
> other everyday fora, but rest assured I will keep an ear to the
ground.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:55:29 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes quirites!
On 12/29/01 4:35 PM, Franciscus Apulus Caesar wrote:
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar omnibus S.P.D.
> This is my PERSONAL idea of democracy too.
> IMHO a democracy election system is based on the "1 person / 1 vote". There
> isn't democracy when my vote value 1/4 of a Magistrate's vote.
I'm OK with the current way to do. Let me add my 2 denarii on this
topic. My macronation is Switzerland, which is a democratic state, as
much as I know... But we have a very complicated voting system, I'll
just tell you in a nutshel, so you can understand.
Every citizen has one vote. But one votes not as citizen of Switzerland,
but as citizen of a specific Canton (State). There are big Cantons, like
Bern, and there are much smaller Cantons like Appenzell. By some voting
topics (actually when it involves a change of the constitution - and
which happens quite often, not like in the US), there's a double
majoritiy needed: that is, first the majoritiy of the people but also
the majority of the Cantons. So let's say, the outcome is 55% for a
change and 45% against the change, you would say the change passed. Well
not necessary. If 15 of the smaller Cantons voted against it, then the
change DID NOT pass. Which means:
If I am citizen of a big Canton, my vote actually valued less than the
vote of a citizen in a small canton. This system was introduced in order
to avoid that Switzerland is ruled by the big cantons and the minority
cantons wouldn't have a word to say.
Note that also the United States have something similar when electing
their president. The president is in the end elected by the States, not
by the individuals.
Ok, now let's imagine one Century is a State/Canton or one Tribus is a
State/Canton. Inside a Century or Tribus, there is the system one man =
one vote. Now I don't forget that the higher a Century is, the more
weigh it has (the smaller one Canton/State is, the more your vote
values). I mean, look how you get century points: it depends on how
active you were and how long you stayed in NovaRoma. For me, that sounds
fairly correct.
Thanks for listening to my opinion.
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus steps down from the rostra
omnibusque S.D.
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
"Caius Cornelius Puteanus" <puteus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:25:34 +0100 |
|
Salve Gnae Salix Astur Honorabilis!
I thank you for your reaction. I wan't to react firmly against one
assumption, being that of me voting for an undemocratic party in my
macronation. Of course you understand that this doesn't apply to me, since
the only undemocratic party we know in Flanders in a belliquous racist
party. This really isn't my style, you know I have always been quite
moderate even though I have my own opinions. It would be a curse for me to
vote for a racist party, since it simply can't be seen as 'Roman' to do so
(Romans weren't racists, their (Stoic) universalism is well known).
Secondly, looking at my own macronation or at the European Union as a whole,
I don't see 'historical' institutions there that should be supported, since
these macronations have their own territory and are still evolving. The EU
will take over on the long run, but I'm not quite sure how much our
generation (I'm 24!) will see of it...
I don't object the other thoughts you have develloped, it is clear that they
are well thought of and that we differ on one fundamental question: should
we try to recreate Rome as faithful to Roma antiqua as pos or should we make
NR fit the best as pos into the 21st century world, starting from the
antique Roman system. We both give different answers here.
I have looked up the url at which Polybius' book VI can be viewed. It is
quite long, but certainly worth a try:
http://www.constitution.org/rom/polybius6.htm
Vale bene!
Caius Cornelius Puteanus
www.geocities.com/puteanus/
www.geocities.com/Germania_Inferior/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO
> Salvete Hispanici; et salve, Cai Corneli.
>
> I have a few comments to your last post, if you don't mind:
>
> --- Caius Cornelius Puteanus <puteus@--------> wrote:
> > Salve, Honorable Franciscus Caesar Apulus!
> >
> > First of all: happy New Year to you too!!!
> > You have touched a lot of problems, the inactive cives, the census to
> > be
> > held, the structure of the state.
> >
> > Let me clear my point of view on the 'democratic' part.
> > 1. Nova ROMA tries to recreate the Roman Republic
>
> As best as possible. However, sometimes we have to make a few
> concessions to modern times. Nova Roma has no slavery, no women
> discrimination, no belligerant attitudes. These changes are extremely
> reasonable and necessary.
>
> > 2. The Roman Republic wasn't 'democratic' in the modern sense of the
> > word
>
> The Roman Republic had slavery, Roman women were *legally*
> discriminated, and war was hardly continuous.
>
> > 3. Yet Roma had a system that was in some way very accurate, please
> > check on
> > Polybius Book VI
>
> Vey accurate? What do you mean?
>
> > 4. Even though the system of Roma antiqua wasn't intended to be
> > democratic
> > as in 1/1 vote, it was intended for the best of the People of Rome
> > (please
> > check Polybius again)
>
> Sometimes, the People of Rome did not think that their current system
> was for their best. They expelled the kings because of that. They
> created new institutions (tribuni plebis, aediles plebeii) and enacted
> new laws because of that.
>
> > 5. Since the intention is 'for the best of all people involved' and
> > the
> > voting system isn't so malformed because of the low number of active
> > voters
> > which leave very few centuriae in which there are really 4 voters, I
> > still
> > consider it a democratic state as described above.
>
> However, in principle, it is *not* so democratic. In the future, when
> our active citizenry is counted by thousands, our system will become
> *very* undemocratic, according to your own description.
>
> > 6. Of course you have the right to disagree, and I see you do ;-))
> > but that
> > is all the more Roman to do, isn't it?
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar has more rights than to simply disagree. May I
> simply remind you of a very famous quote from one of America's greatest
> politicians? Check out for Thomas Jefferson.
>
> > 7. I just don't see any reason to reform the system as it stands into
> > something SVR has done: abolish all assemblies and just keep 'one'
> > Comitia
> > (comitia is plural) in which is voted 1/1. To me you can consider
> > this an
> > anochronism i.e. historical rape. I don't want the res publica to do
> > this
> > with its noble ancestors...
>
> That is not the sole possible solution. We could try to keep as many
> elements as possible from the original Roman Republic, while trying to
> adapt those institutions to a modern environment.
>
> And, speaking of anachronisms, there are *many* in Nova Roma. To begin
> with, our gens system has *nothing* to do with the original Roman
> familiar institution. Our current percentage of patrician citizens is a
> *huge* anachronism. And our current political system is *more*
> conservative, in some aspects, than the Roman Republic herself.
>
> > 8. And even though it is correct that the system evolved during the
> > 500 y.
> > of its existence, it changed very SLOWLY so... please don't 'rape'
> > the
> > system because our present day world is so called democratic! I can
> > tell you
> > your vote counts much more in our system than it does in the so
> > called
> > democracies. There you elect Parliament, you are not a member of it,
> > they
> > create and vote leges, and you have to obey to them. Here you vote
> > directly
> > for or against leges, which is all the more 'for the good of the
> > people'!
>
> Then go ahead and vote a political party in your macronation that is
> against parliamentary democracy.
>
> You know, in many parts of the world we still remember when our
> countries were not parliamentary democracies. Believe me, we don't miss
> that status.
>
> > IMHO, we may differ in interpretation (how the system should work)
> > but we do
> > agree on one thing: it is the historical system of the Republic and
> > it isn't
> > so bad at all, if you check out the sources and consider especially
> > point 8!
>
> Our differences, like it always happens here, lay in where we draw the
> line between Roman historical reconstruction and modern convenience.
> Many people have suggested in this very same list that our gens system
> should not be reformed to drive it closer to historical practice
> because it would be too inconvenient. Surprisingly, many of these very
> same people are willing to overcome any inconvinience to keep a version
> of the Roman political system which is far more conservative than the
> late Republican system.
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
> Lictor Curiatus.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ouch! |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:31:59 EST |
|
Salvete,
I've discovered that I made an important omission in the public 'thanks' at
the end of my end of year consular speech. I forgot to include Senator and
Pontifex Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus!
Cincinnatus was of great help to me personally over the past year. He was
there for me whenever I got swamped with to much overtime at the day job, or
when I just didn't have time to gather information before a vote, etc. He
not only provided me with Senate and Comitia facts when I needed them, he
also convened the Collegium Pontificum when I could not, and tallied votes
there.
I did a first draft of my end of year speech, and put the 'thank you' message
near the top. Cincinnatus was on that list. :) However the text just plain
sucked, so I deleted it entirely, re-wrote it, and posted it with this
glaring omission.
My apologies to Cincinnatus for this. He deserved public thanks... hopefully
this will suffice!
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Quaestor Assignments for MMDCCLV |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:28:58 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salvete Quaestores et Aediles proximi anni,
The Consuls-elect will soon assign Quaestores to next year's
Praetores and Aediles. This is to be done by "mutual agreement"
between all concerned.
This year, we have the added complication that one of the
Praetores for next year is still unknown. The two candidates for
that position are Titus Labienus Fortunatus and Quintus Fabius Maximus.
Candidate Q. Fabius is also a newly-elected Quaestor.
Thus, we may not be able to make all of the Quaestor's assignments
at the same time; at least a few of them will be dependent on the
outcome of the 3rd-round Praetor's election. Nevertheless, where
there is a clear agreement between a future Quaestor and an
Aedile or Praetor, we will attempt to make that assignment.
I ask all newly-elected Quaestores, Aediles, Praetores, and
the two potential Praetores to review the lists of elected
magistrates, contacting those who you would like to serve with,
and then to contact next year's Consuls to state your preference.
Valete,
M. Octavius Germanicus.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Curator Araneum et Senator, Nova Roma
Senior Consul-Elect, MMDCCLV (2002)
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] R: EDICTUM CURATORIS ARANEUM |
| From: |
"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:48:26 +0100 |
|
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Marco Octavio Germanico S.P.D.
I want to thank the Honourable Consul and Curator Araneum Marcus Octavius
Germanicus to appoint me as Scriba.
I'm proud to serve and help him in the grow of the official website and all
the Nova Roman sites.
I hope our work will improve our best way of communication to make better
activisme, discussion and dialogue about all the citizens.
Thank you, Marce, I wosh you an happy new year and a optimum work.
Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Soon Quaestor
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia
Alme Sol ... Possis Nihil Urbe Roma Visere Maius
Support me as Propraetor Italiae Provinciae
----------------------------------------
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
----------------------------------------
Web Nova Roman Experiments - http://lab.novaroma.org/wnre
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:49:39 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Cassi Iuliane.
--- cassius622@-------- wrote: > Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:
>
> And, speaking of anachronisms, there are *many* in Nova Roma. To
> begin
> with, our gens system has *nothing* to do with the original Roman
> familiar institution.
>
> Cassius respondit:
> It seems to me that our current Gens system is as close to the
> original Roman
> family institution as is possible under modern circumstances.
I am sorry, consul, but I have to disagree. Several proposals have been
presented in the last year to reform our familiar system to bring it
closer to ancient practice. All of them are easily implementable "under
modern circumstances".
> The largest break with tradition is that ALL of our Gens have been
> formed
> through a sort of 'co-adoption' rather than being founded on blood
> relationships. That is something that was completely (and hopefully
> understandibly) unavoidable at the founding. Surely as time goes on
> there
> will be more births in Nova Roma and familial ties will begin to be
> introduced... until then we're stuck with what we can do.
That is not particularly antihistoric. Adoptions were a pretty common
ocurrence in Roman times.
> The other major break with history in the NR Gentes is that we've
> developed a
> tendency to manifest the Gentes as cohesive groups rather than
> individual
> families who happen to share the same name. This also was something
> difficult
> to avoid - we're spread wide georgraphically but yet also in close
> communication by the Internet. Organization has crept in due to these
> conditions that did not exist in Roma antiqua. I believe this can
> also be
> solved with a little time.
There is a misconception of what a gens actually was in Nova Roma. I
have *nothing* against gentiles who share more than their name; in
fact, I am all in favour of cohesive gentes. But we should not confound
the concept of gens and familia. For example, there was no institution
even close to our gens "paterfamilias"; a paterfamilias, as the name
implies, was the leader of a family, and not of a gens.
> This year, for instance, the Gens Cassia will be focusing more on the
> independant familiae, and we hope to set a working example which
> other Gentes
> might adopt in the future. I am firm in the belief that the overall
> goal of
> Nova Roma is to be more historical with the Gentes as well... even if
> it's
> somethig that can't be forced overnight.
I think that Titus Labienus Fortunatus's proposal, coupled with the
possibility of joining those familiae who share a common nomen under
the same gens, is fairly simple. I can't really see were the problem
is.
> Salix Astur:
> > Our current percentage of patrician citizens is a
> > *huge* anachronism.
>
> Cassius:
> This is another situation that has grown out of modern circumstances.
> A
> decent enough foundation was set... provision for 30 Patrician Gentes
> and
> provision for an *infinite* amount of Plebian gentes. What nobody
> foresaw was
> that we'd have a lot of very active Patricians that would do a lot of
> adopting. Even with that the ratio of Patricians versus Plebians will
> no
> doubt become more 'accurate' over time. The number of Plebian Gentes
> will
> continue to grow, and the ratio between the Patricians and Plebians
> widens
> with each passing month. Again, no reason to 'blame' Nova Roma for
> the
> situation not being completely accurate from moment one.
I am not blaming Nova Roma; I am blaming its past magistrates.
> Salix Astur:
> >And our current political system is *more*
> >conservative, in some aspects, than the Roman Republic herself.
>
> Cassius:
> And in many respects Nova Roma is far *less* conservative than Roma
> Antiqua.
> Neither is a particular cause for anger or rancour... Nova Roma is
> young and
> we're just people doing the best we can.
I have to agree with that. Let's do the best we can, and let's do it
better than until now.
And I am not angry, nor full of rancour. I just want to see some
changes. That is all.
> Salix Astur:
> >Our differences, like it always happens here, lay in where we draw
> the
> line between Roman historical reconstruction and modern convenience.
>
> Cassius:
> My belief is that the line is between historical reconstruction and
> practical
> possiblity, not merely 'convenience'.
O.K.
> Salix Astur:
> Many people have suggested in this very same list that our gens
> system
> should not be reformed to drive it closer to historical practice
> because it would be too inconvenient.
>
> Cassius:
> It seems to me that there is more to the situation. The only 'change'
> to the
> gens system that has been advocated so far was a piece of legislation
> that
> would have radically affected a good number of things. Not only gens
> structure, but also basic Citizenship, the rights of the
> Pater/Materfamiliae,
> and more. I'm all for more historical gentes myself, but yet did not
> support
> that particular suggestion.
Are we talking about the same proposal? Fortunatus's proposal consisted
of a simple change of nomenclature. I do not see those drastic changes
there.
> In my own opinion more focus on the indivdual 'familiae', (individual
> households that happen to share a Gens name) is a major solution
> toward
> bringing the Gentes into a more historical form.
Under our current legislation, familiae are not recognized. There are
no true paterfamilias. This makes it pretty difficult to bring "more
focus" on the historical institutions.
> Salix Astur:
> Surprisingly, many of these very
> same people are willing to overcome any inconvinience to keep a
> version
> of the Roman political system which is far more conservative than the
> late Republican system.
>
> Cassius:
> I've come to this discussion late so I may be missing some of its
> finer
> points. From what I've seen it's a discussion of the "one man, one
> vote"
> ideal that, as far as I know, was *never* a part of Roman history in
> any era.
It wasn't. But, as I said, that is not the only possible solution.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:19:10 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Ferricule.
--- "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes quirites!
>
> On 12/29/01 4:35 PM, Franciscus Apulus Caesar wrote:
>
> > Franciscus Apulus Caesar omnibus S.P.D.
>
> > This is my PERSONAL idea of democracy too.
> > IMHO a democracy election system is based on the "1 person / 1
> vote". There
> > isn't democracy when my vote value 1/4 of a Magistrate's vote.
>
>
> I'm OK with the current way to do. Let me add my 2 denarii on this
> topic. My macronation is Switzerland, which is a democratic state, as
>
> much as I know... But we have a very complicated voting system, I'll
> just tell you in a nutshel, so you can understand.
>
> Every citizen has one vote. But one votes not as citizen of
> Switzerland,
> but as citizen of a specific Canton (State). There are big Cantons,
> like
> Bern, and there are much smaller Cantons like Appenzell. By some
> voting
> topics (actually when it involves a change of the constitution - and
> which happens quite often, not like in the US), there's a double
> majoritiy needed: that is, first the majoritiy of the people but also
>
> the majority of the Cantons. So let's say, the outcome is 55% for a
> change and 45% against the change, you would say the change passed.
> Well
> not necessary. If 15 of the smaller Cantons voted against it, then
> the
> change DID NOT pass. Which means:
>
> If I am citizen of a big Canton, my vote actually valued less than
> the
> vote of a citizen in a small canton. This system was introduced in
> order
> to avoid that Switzerland is ruled by the big cantons and the
> minority
> cantons wouldn't have a word to say.
>
> Note that also the United States have something similar when electing
>
> their president. The president is in the end elected by the States,
> not
> by the individuals.
>
> Ok, now let's imagine one Century is a State/Canton or one Tribus is
> a
> State/Canton. Inside a Century or Tribus, there is the system one man
> =
> one vote. Now I don't forget that the higher a Century is, the more
> weigh it has (the smaller one Canton/State is, the more your vote
> values). I mean, look how you get century points: it depends on how
> active you were and how long you stayed in NovaRoma. For me, that
> sounds
> fairly correct.
>
> Thanks for listening to my opinion.
I understand what you mean, and I thank you for taking the time to
explain your opinion. I have to add that hardly every modern democracy
shows a similar system.
In fact, I am *not* against the idea of centuries; especially since it
is based on previous service. However, I would like to see a lower
difference between centuries.
To follow your example, I am sure that if the smallest five cantons of
Switzerland could decide upon common legislation all by themselves, the
people on the other cantons would disagree.
That is what I want to see implemented. Not a total disappearance of
the comitia centuriata, but a more democratic comitia centuriata. I
think that it is a proper aspiration.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:22:28 -0600 |
|
Salvete Quirites
Congratulations to C Minucius, C Popillius, and P Domitianus on their
recent elections!
Congratulations also to my esteemed former opponent, Pompeia Cornelia
Strabo! I look forward to working with you in the coming year,
hopefully as your praetorian colleague, and more certainly as a member
of Consul-elect Octavius' staff.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
Quicquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] R: an undemocratic Republic - IMHO |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:36:18 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Cai Corneli.
--- Caius Cornelius Puteanus <puteus@--------> wrote:
> Salve Gnae Salix Astur Honorabilis!
>
> I thank you for your reaction. I wan't to react firmly against one
> assumption, being that of me voting for an undemocratic party in my
> macronation. Of course you understand that this doesn't apply to me,
> since
> the only undemocratic party we know in Flanders in a belliquous
> racist
> party. This really isn't my style, you know I have always been quite
> moderate even though I have my own opinions. It would be a curse for
> me to
> vote for a racist party, since it simply can't be seen as 'Roman' to
> do so
> (Romans weren't racists, their (Stoic) universalism is well known).
Please, accept my apologies. But I don't like people talking against
parliamentary democracy, especially when they have not experienced none
of the alternatives.
> Secondly, looking at my own macronation or at the European Union as a
> whole,
> I don't see 'historical' institutions there that should be supported,
> since
> these macronations have their own territory and are still evolving.
Democracy is *always* in need of protection. You are extremely lucky if
you live in a country where this is not so evident.
> The EU will take over on the long run, but I'm not quite sure how
> much our generation (I'm 24!) will see of it...
I am 25, and I certainly hope to see it :-).
> I don't object the other thoughts you have develloped, it is clear
> that they
> are well thought of and that we differ on one fundamental question:
> should
> we try to recreate Rome as faithful to Roma antiqua as pos or should
> we make
> NR fit the best as pos into the 21st century world, starting from the
> antique Roman system. We both give different answers here.
I disagree. I also want to recreate Rome as faithful as reasonably
possible. The difference may lie in what each one of us considers
"reasonably possible".
> I have looked up the url at which Polybius' book VI can be viewed. It
> is
> quite long, but certainly worth a try:
> http://www.constitution.org/rom/polybius6.htm
Thank you. I had already read Polibius' statements :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Novae Romae in Thule
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] 12 tabulae |
| From: |
"Caius Cornelius Puteanus" <puteus@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:20:44 +0100 |
|
Avete omnes!
Anybody know where I could find what is left of the text of the 12 tables
online?
Thanks a lot for helping me out!
Vale bene!
Caius Cornelius Puteanus
www.geocities.com/puteanus/
www.geocities.com/Germania_Inferior/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] "Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@--------> |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:38:27 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salve, mi collega
Well, lets to wait some gours more, and we will be
Tribunes.
You, as Tribunus senior, will have the honor of
convocate the Comitia Populi, to elect three more
Tribunes; and since than nine days passed since the
resignation of Sextus Apollonius, the same convocation
will be for a Aedilis Plebeius too.
However, i believe that we need to make the potential
candidates aware of this, to organize for the
election. Where is the advantage of having five
positions of Tribune, if we have few candidates?
Perhaps we can announce the date of election
informally, perhaps in the first announcement.
Vale
Marcus Arminius
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] apologies |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:40:41 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salvete Quirites
I apologize for posting a private message in the main
list.
Valete
Marcus Arminius
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RUNOFF ELECTION RESULTS |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:56:21 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salvete Quirites
I want to extend my congratulations to the new elected
magistrates.
However, as our Consul said, in our current system has
flaws that needs two runoff elections. This happened
because we had three strong candidates for only two
positions.
However, i doesnt heard that a similar incident
ocurren in Roma Antiqua. There, a centuria is selected
to begin the voting, and then the vote of this
centuria is announced; then the next, and so until two
Praetores reached the minimum of centurias necessary
for being elected. When the first of the candidates
(the one who will be the Praetor senior) reaches the
necessary number of centurias, his name is retired of
the ballot (or at least, nombody votes on him, since
he is elected!).
Is impossible to reproduce very well this system of
voting, and the situation in what we are now make me
feel that we need to cancel the rule that we need to
have half of the tribes or centuries to have a
candidate elected; so, we doesnt need run-off
elections anymore.
Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebeius
Tribunus Plebis elected
--- cassius622@-------- escreveu: > Salvete Omnes,
>
> Here are the results of the runoff elections for
> Praetor and Quaestor.
>
> We have one Praetor and two Quaestors elected;
> unfortunately this leaves us
> with only one elected Praetor. This will require a
> *second* runoff election
> after the first of the year, of course that election
> must be conducted by our
> incoming Consuls.
>
> No doubt the last runoff election for Praetor will
> be easy enough to get
> through... and hopefully the election system can be
> modified somewhat so that
> these runoff elections are not needed next year.
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