Subject:	[novaroma] Bienvenido Luci Quinte Niger. Welcome. Maximo gaudio te accipio
From:	"luciuspompeius" <danielovi@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Feb 2002 00:23:40 -0000

Bienvenido nuevísimo ciudadano novaromano argentino Luci Quinte Niger.
Welcome newest novaroman citizen from Argentina Luci Quinte Niger.
Maximo gaudio te accipio civis novissimus argentinus Luci Quinte
Niger.
Habeas fortunam bonam
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] message to the senate failed.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:42:47 -0600 (CST)

Salve Luci Pompei,

> I just sent a message to the senate, but it returned failed. So I
> rewrite it again and post it here. Here it is :

The senate alias expands to multiple addresses; it appears that two
of them failed. One of them was Proconsul Audens - who, as we have
seen from his recent message, has changed his address. The other
failed address has been removed from the list.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] I believe I need a glossary
From:	Thomas Sanzone <sanzoniusroma@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)

--- C Williams <rio1@riorondo.com> wrote:
>
> Is there somewhere I can be referred to, in order to
> better understand
> both the terms and cultural concepts of
> pater/materfamilias, gens,
> gentes, gentiles etc.?
>
> I am barely familiar with these terms that are being
> discussed regarding
> the census, and I am unsure of what they mean in
> regards to Roman
> Culture at present. (I'm merely a humble barbarian a
> long ways from Rome).Tell me more
>
> --rio
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Call for Candidates for Tribuni Plebis and Aedilis Plebeius
From:	Thomas Sanzone <sanzoniusroma@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:26:43 -0800 (PST)

--- Franciscus Apulus Caesar
<sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> wrote:
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar Manio Villio Limitano
> S.P.D.
>
> > I intend to defend everywhere and always the
> freedom of all Roman
> > Citizens be they Plebeian or Patrician.
> > In collaboration with the other tribunes I intend
> to elaborate and
> > propose to you laws that explicit the freedom
> granted to all citizens,
> > specially the freedom of speech.
>
> Amice, I'm very interested to your program, but this
> is not enough, can you
> explain your politican plan about the personal
> freedom and of speech?
>
> Valete
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> Quaestor, Scriba Curatoris Araneum
> -------------------------------------------
> Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
> Alme Sol ... Possis Nihil Urbe Roma Visere Maius
> Support me as Propraetor Italiae Provinciae
> ----------------------------------------
> Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
> ----------------------------------------
> Web Nova Roman Experiments -
> http://lab.novaroma.org/wnre
>
>
> I would like to know more about your program


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Subject:	[novaroma] My Candidacy for Tribunus
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:02:42 +0100

Salvete cives,

I, Claudius Salix Davianus, declare my candidacy for TRIBUNUS PLEBIS.

My main priorities, as Tribunus, would be (as was those of ancient tribuni)

to intercede in favour of plebeian citizens in order to avoid violation of their

rights opposing to possible patrician arbitrarities with common citizens.



Also is my desire to work in collaboration with actual consuls to ensure

the democratic future of Nova Roma and to make Nova Roma more great.

Long live to the ideals of Roma!


Valete optime, cari cives,

Claudius Salix Davianus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Proposed LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:44:09 -0000

--- In novaroma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus Quiritibus SPD,
>
> It is an unfortunate fact of life that some citizens, after an
initial
> period of enthusiasm and dedication, will abandon Nova Roma, due to
> a lack of time or a lack of interest. We have had elected
magistrates
> who have neglected their duties or become incommunicado within
months
> of the election, never to be heard from again. We have also had
> magistrates who completed their term, fulfilling all that was
expected
> of them; only to vanish afterwards.
>
> And we have Senators who have reguarly failed to participate in
> Senate debates, or to vote in the Senate or the Comitia.
>
> I believe that a Senator who neglects his responsibilities tarnishes
> the dignity of the Senate as a whole. There are many fine citizens
> who have done much good work for the Republic who are not yet in
> the Senate; it is discouraging to them to be unrewarded, while the
> purple stripe is worn by some citizens who don't even vote.
>
> We do not want a "revolving-door" Senate, where citizens are
Senators
> only while holding a senior office. That is not historical. But
> the other extreme is equally undesireable - a Senate populated by
> empty shells, persons who are citizen in name only, who have not
> participated in our public life for years.
>
> The Constitution grants the Censores the ability to add and remove
> Senators according to qualifications established "by law". There
has
> never been a law specifying conditions for removing Senators.
> According to one interpretation of the Constitution, this would
mean
> that the Censores cannot act at all until a law exists; according to
> another interpretation, they can act with complete freedom until
> restricted by such a law.
>
> Last month, the Senate issued its advice on the matter in the
> form of a Senatus Consultum. As this is not a "law", it is not
> binding on the Censores. While it establishes advisory guidelines,
> at present we are still faced with the Constitutional question
> of whether a right granted to a magistrate can be exercised in the
> absense of a law detailing specifics.

Salve Consul,

Actually, that is not entirely correct. A Senatus Consultum has all
the force of law and is higher in legal precedence than an edict
issued by any magistrate, including a consul or censor. The Censors
are already legally bound by the Senatus Consultum you mentioned. I
refer you to Section I.B. of the Constitution:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
B.
Legal precedence. This Constitution shall be the highest legal
authority within Nova Roma, apart from edicts issued by a legally
appointed dictator. It shall thereafter be followed in legal
authority by edicta issued by consuls acting under the Senatus
consultum ultima, laws properly voted and passed by one of the
comitia, decreta passed by the collegium pontificum, decreta passed
by the collegium augurium, Senatus consulta, and magisterial edicta
(in order of descending authority as described in section IV of this
Constitution), in that order. Should a lower authority conflict with
a higher authority, the higher authority shall take precedence.
Should a law passed by one comitia contradict one passed by another
or the same comitia without explicitly superceding that law, the most
recent law shall take precedence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------


So, while you are fully within your rights to present it as a law,
this Senatus Consultum is already legally binding upon the censors.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Senator Consularis

Subject:	[novaroma] Candidates without plan :-(
From:	"fraelov" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:02:08 -0000

Franciscus Apulus Caesar omnibus S.P.D.

In a first view each candidates as Tribunus (but Aedilis too) is good
because you talk about human rights, freedom of speech, plebeian role
in the NR society, equality between our two classes, etc.

But nobody talk how he want take own goal!!!
What is your concret program? How you thing to realyze your plan in a
pratical way?

Each of us is able to declarate to want the democracy and the rights
for all, but it's harder how follow our aims. I can't give you my
vote if you don't persuade me, I would like concret and pratical
proposals! If you haven't a politic plan you can't work for one year
and your supporters can't value your job.

So, please, write a bit more and take your responsability!

P.S.: Sorry for my bad and unpolite english ;-/

Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Quaestor






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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Proposed LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <Tal123berg@aol.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:04:43 -0000

> Salve Consul,
>
> Actually, that is not entirely correct. A Senatus Consultum has all
> the force of law and is higher in legal precedence than an edict
> issued by any magistrate, including a consul or censor. The Censors
> are already legally bound by the Senatus Consultum you mentioned. I
> refer you to Section I.B. of the Constitution:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> B.
> Legal precedence. This Constitution shall be the highest legal
> authority within Nova Roma, apart from edicts issued by a legally
> appointed dictator. It shall thereafter be followed in legal
> authority by edicta issued by consuls acting under the Senatus
> consultum ultima, laws properly voted and passed by one of the
> comitia, decreta passed by the collegium pontificum, decreta passed
> by the collegium augurium, Senatus consulta, and magisterial edicta
> (in order of descending authority as described in section IV of
this
> Constitution), in that order. Should a lower authority conflict
with
> a higher authority, the higher authority shall take precedence.
> Should a law passed by one comitia contradict one passed by another
> or the same comitia without explicitly superceding that law, the
most
> recent law shall take precedence.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> So, while you are fully within your rights to present it as a law,
> this Senatus Consultum is already legally binding upon the censors.
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius,
> Senator Consularis

Salve Senator Consularis!

While idly sitting in my office, waiting for a phone call that
seemingly never will come to release me into the weekend, I had time
to read your legal opinion and, quite frankly, find it hardly
convincing.

Let me take you through my reasoning point by point:
First: The order of legal precedence includes (and I cite directly
from the constitution):
"Should a lower authority conflict with a higher authority, the
higher authority shall take precedence."

Second: It is clearly stated in the NR constitution, that removal of
a senator requires a "law". Although senatus consulta have legal
authority and the force of law in a general sense (meaning they apply
to more than one case), as you rightly point out they do not
constitute such "laws".
To clarify let me cite, what you left out:

"I.A. This Constitution shall be the basic authority for all decision-
making within Nova Roma and shall limit the authority of all
magistrates and bodies, and all leges (laws) [sic!!!!!] passed by the
comitia, decreta (decrees) of the priestly collegia, magistral edicta
(edicts) and Senatus consulta shall be subject to it except as
provided by the following two provisos:
The edicta (edicts) of a dictator appointed under this Constitution
may override its provisions, insofar as he is empowered to do so by
the Senatus consultum enabling his appointment;
This Constitution may be amended by a Lex passed by the comitia
centuriata and approved by a vote of two thirds of the Senate"

Therefore, to think that Senatus Consulta are also laws in the sense
of IV.A.1.d. would come - in my of course narrowminded world - close
to legal sophistry.

So to sum it up: if a senatus consultum (or an edictum for that
matter) would try to explicitly bind the censores in the question of
removal of senatores, it would clearly conflict with the explicit
requirement spelled out in the constitution in IV.A.1.d. You can draw
your own conclusion to what consequences this has (either it creates
a necessity for the Tribunes to intervene and the SC stands as
legally binding until such action or it is automatically void; I
would lean towards the former for reasons of legal clarity, but to my
memory this has often been discussed but never been settled).

Anyway, the senior Consul's proposal makes good sense in my mind.

Marcus Marcius Rex
Iurisconsultus (and former Senator)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Candidates without plan :-(
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	08 Feb 2002 12:46:44 -0200

Manius Villius Limitanus omnibus S.P.D.

As I said in the last campaign (for Curator Sermonis), I feel that
previous censorship on the main list is incompatible with
the constitutional rights of Roman Citizens.
The problem comes from the "reasonably moderated" of our constitution.

No need to change the constitution, just to define by Lex what is
reasonable and what is not.

My intention is to propose a law that prohibits previous censorship
against all Roman Citizens.


Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus




Em Sex, 2002-02-08 às 10:02, fraelov escreveu:
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar omnibus S.P.D.
>
> In a first view each candidates as Tribunus (but Aedilis too) is good
> because you talk about human rights, freedom of speech, plebeian role
> in the NR society, equality between our two classes, etc.
>
> But nobody talk how he want take own goal!!!
> What is your concret program? How you thing to realyze your plan in a
> pratical way?
>
> Each of us is able to declarate to want the democracy and the rights
> for all, but it's harder how follow our aims. I can't give you my
> vote if you don't persuade me, I would like concret and pratical
> proposals! If you haven't a politic plan you can't work for one year
> and your supporters can't value your job.
>
> So, please, write a bit more and take your responsability!
>
> P.S.: Sorry for my bad and unpolite english ;-/
>
> Valete
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> Quaestor
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>






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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: My Return
From:	"radams36" <radams40@juno.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:31:55 -0000

--- In novaroma@y..., MarcusAudens@w... wrote:
> Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> I am returned, it appears, to Nova Roma by the efforts of my
particular
> friends, Senator, Strabo and both Censors. I was
presumed "unsubbed"
> from the list and lost to Nova Roma several days ago by some
undetected
> mischief caused by the recent virus which has attacked Nova Roma.
>Snip<
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens

Good to see you back, amice, the list isn't the same without you!
Thumbs up to the Censors and Senator Strabo, they all prove their
diligence and amity for other citizens again and again. Well done!

Vale bene,

Rufus Iulius, Palaeologus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Candidates without plan :-(
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:29:20 +0100

Salvete cives Novae Romae ac salve tu, Francisce Apule Caesar,

>In a first view each candidates as Tribunus (but Aedilis too) is good
>because you talk about human rights, freedom of speech, plebeian role
>in the NR society, equality between our two classes, etc.

>But nobody talk how he want take own goal!!!

In fact the task of a Tribunus Plebis not a governamental one. The task of a Tribunus
is to observe kindly the government and to look after plebeian interests, so that the
governemental measures were agreed with the general principles of Nova Roma.

I have not presented any program, there is no necesity, the task of a Tribunus Plebis is
not to present concrete programs it is a charismatic position no a governamental one.
I trust in those that has followed my contributions as much from my province,
as diverse sodalitates and of course in this main list. You yourself know me, we have
participated with me in diverse Novaroman lists, you and those that know me can trust
in my honesty and in the democratic direction of my ideas.

>What is your concret program? How you thing to realyze your plan in a
>pratical way?

By means of the kindly observation of the interests of the majority of citizens!

>If you haven't a politic plan you can't work for one year and your supporters can't value your job.

If someone desires to know my position relatively to some aspects, please, feel free to contact personaly with me

Valete optime,
Claudius Salix Davianus
Candidate to Tribunus Plebis,
Scriba Provincia Hispaniae, anno MMDCCLIV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Proposed LEX OCTAVIA DE SENATORIBUS
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:58:52 EST

In a message dated 2/8/02 5:39:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Tal123berg@aol.com writes:


> Therefore, to think that Senatus Consulta are also laws in the sense
> of IV.A.1.d. would come - in my of course narrowminded world - close
> to legal sophistry.
>

Salvete!

I agree with Marcus Maricus. In fact, Conscript Fathers, did we not have
similar discussion about this two years ago?

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]