Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:29:32 +0100

Salvete clares Consules,

Quoting the webpage http://www.novaroma.org/payment.html:
"It is due by February 28th."

I simply don't understand why this decision has been taken so fast.
People from outside USA have A LOT of problems with paying this fee.

1. There are a some scaring reports about abuses at Penpal. So I will
understand anyone refusing to pay through this service.
2. If paying through Penpal, you must know that international customers
have first to be confirmed, that means a delay of at least 2 months
3. International money orders are not a solution either, since the
banking taxes raise to 15 EUR for sending 13 EUR. Are you kidding?

In the name of all citizens living outside the USA, I request:

1. The deadline to be delayed by at least 2 months, that is April 30 OR
as long item #2 below is not resolved.
2. An acceptable solution to be found for international payments.

Until then, I CANNOT and won't pay the taxes. Please don't rush this
very sensitive issue, you are going to destroy NovaRoma this way. As I
have seen, many citizens already resigned because of that.

Valete bene,
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:43:55 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
To: <consules@novaroma.org>; "Novaroma Mainlist" <novaroma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due

> Salvete clares Consules,

Avete Omnes,

> Quoting the webpage http://www.novaroma.org/payment.html:
> "It is due by February 28th."
>
> I simply don't understand why this decision has been taken so fast.
> People from outside USA have A LOT of problems with paying this fee.

Because Nova Roma is growing and her expenses are also increasing. This has
been discussed many many times in the past. I suggest you go into the
archieves and read those debates.

> 1. There are a some scaring reports about abuses at Penpal. So I will
> understand anyone refusing to pay through this service.

There are? I have not seen, heard nor experience any such abuse at all. I
have used paypal extensively for purchases of a wide variety of products on
the Internet. I have used paypal at least 60 times and my fiancee, Prima
Cornelia Pulchra has used paypal at least 200+ times with no negative
results.

> 2. If paying through Penpal, you must know that international customers
> have first to be confirmed, that means a delay of at least 2 months

That is not true either. We have already received a number of international
payments. And the one issue that we are dealing with at most will delay
payment til the end of the month, and my Consular Quaestor is already
investigating that issue with Paypal.

> 3. International money orders are not a solution either, since the
> banking taxes raise to 15 EUR for sending 13 EUR. Are you kidding?

This is why I prefered to raise the tax initially beyond the $12.00 however,
Consul Flavius Vedius decided on the lower amount. The Senate agreed with
him.

> In the name of all citizens living outside the USA, I request:
>
> 1. The deadline to be delayed by at least 2 months, that is April 30 OR
> as long item #2 below is not resolved.

I am presenting an agenda item to the Senate to delay the deadline for a
month.

> 2. An acceptable solution to be found for international payments.

This is something I intend to look into during my tenure as Consul.
However, I should stress that the problems with paypal have been on the
whole minimal. Many citizens outside of the US have been able to process
their payments successfully without any trouble at all.

> Until then, I CANNOT and won't pay the taxes. Please don't rush this
> very sensitive issue, you are going to destroy NovaRoma this way. As I
> have seen, many citizens already resigned because of that.

That is totally your choice. Your vote will be lessened with the other
members of Nova Roma who do not want to pay the tax. You will also be
unable to run for any political office as well, as per the Lex Vedia. I
also respectfully disagree from your alarmist statement that this is going
to destroy Nova Roma. As one who has been in Nova Roma since her first day
Nova Roma has gone though greater issues than this. And this is something
that is going to help Nova Roma fiscally by being able to forecast future
budgets and expensis and give Nova Roma a solid financial foundation.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul of Nova Roma

> Valete bene,
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> Friburgii Helvetiorum
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Slight spelling correction
From:	"arloro1" <antoniuscorvusseptimius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:49:47 -0000

A. Corvus Septimius Manius Villius Limitanus SFR

> >
> Salve,
>
> as you know, I am totally opposed to this law, because it ends
NovaRoma
> as I have seen it: a Universal Community of people loving Roma.

Septimius: A universal community with love enough to revive the
language as well as its politics ?

Giving
> legal precendance on one vernacular language over all others is
quite
> the opposite of universality.

Giving
> legal precendance on one vernacular language over all others is
quite
> the opposite of universality.

Septimius: On the contrary,one language throughout our culture could
only bring us closer together. Latin would be my first choice.Wouldnt
you agree? Not only is it a practical regular language, it gives
breath to the culture.No one mentioned our Nova Roman brothers and
sisters who are in different parts of the globe, end speaking in their
native tongue. I sence that you are trying to please our cives, thats
commendable, since you are running for Tribunis Plebis.---And by the
way, so am I :)---

>
> I think there should be no legal technicality problem in accepting
this
> draft, but I feel that what happened should be interpreted as a bad
omen
> send by the Gods.

Septimius: You have never mentioned before, about being an Augur. How
long have you studied this extremely lengthy process? I really do hope
that you mention this with our beloved Gods' will.Because I have seen
the consiquences of someone playing with the religio in this manner.
And it is NOT a pretty picture.If I am wrong, and you are an Augur,
accept my apollogies. That being said, I will continue with the
assumption that you are not. I certainly hope that you view the post
of Tribunis Plebis as you obviously view the Religio Romana! As a
game?!

And I am quite sure that it would have been treated
> like that in ancient Roma.

Septimius: Using the Gods for your political goals. There may have
been those in Roma Antica that would do such a thing. But look at what
happened to them. Think again before you use this obvious tactic.Its
very offensive to those of us who invoke them with good intent.
As for the folley of the Comitia Plebis (leaving out a candidate),
this to, I question sincerity in the matter.I will not take my
honorable post of Tribunis Plebis so lightly ( if the people wish me
to be in their service).And, I must state that your call to withold
this law AND not calling for the same action taken on the Comitia
Plebis, reaks of just another polititian who is so hungry for votes,
that he/she would step on common decency.

-vale-


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Tax Reminders
From:	Navarra Reid <sacerdos@shaw.ca>
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:23:21 -0600

Could someone please inform me of how I can send my taxes in from Canada
without using Paypal. I do not at this time have a credit card, so a cheque
is all I can offer.

Appia Claudia Indagatrix
Materfamilias Gens Claudia
Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Language Law
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:52:03 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

As you have read in the past, I believe this law is the only way that
Nova Roma can be prevented in becoming another tower of babel, until
such time as computers can be designed to render reasonable translations
in a reasonable period of time.

I have read in many of my wife's travel directories that most European
Nations insure that the language of business in in fact English at this
point in history. Not French and not Latin but rather English. This
situation does not indicate that English is a better or more desirable
language but rather it is the most universal of the languages of this
historical period, much s French and Latin was during the period when
those languages were primary for business.

English is taught in almost every nation as a secondary language, during
ths historical period, and properly should be used as the language of
business for Nova Roma. In America, other language studies are also
required for completion of college degrees, and while I have studied
Spanish and German, I am not skilled in them.

I understand fully, the problem of people who cannot speak English any
better than I speak Spanish or German, and I enourage these Nova Roma
Citizens to establish lists in whch they can speak thier native
language, whatever it may be, and provide translators to share their
thoughts with the Main List. I have lived abroad for several years and
have visited many countries. Most countries require a visitor make an
effort in the language in the countries that are visited and that is
certainly fair. I am now studying the History and lnguage of
Scandanavia

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Slight spelling correction
From:	"lsicinius" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:50:21 -0000

--- In novaroma@y..., Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> as you know, I am totally opposed to this law, because it ends NovaRoma
> as I have seen it: a Universal Community of people loving Roma. Giving
> legal precendance on one vernacular language over all others is quite
> the opposite of universality.
>
> I think there should be no legal technicality problem in accepting this
> draft, but I feel that what happened should be interpreted as a bad omen
> send by the Gods. And I am quite sure that it would have been treated
> like that in ancient Roma.
>
> Please retire all this law and take the omens again, and perhaps the
> Gods will show the way to a World Wide Rome.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>

Ave Quirites,

This is a misunderstanding of the intent and scope of this lex.

This lex does NOT represent a major change in Nova Roma's policies
regarding the English or the Latin Languages. The majority of this lex
is taken verbatum from the Consulta the Senate passed last year.

See Item III from vote of 15 Nov 2754 AUC at
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2001-11-15-results.html

Section I of the Lex only difers from section one of the Consulta in
refering to this as a lex rather than as a Consulta.

Sections II and III of the Lex do not differ from Sections II and III
of the Consulta.

Section IV of the Lex establishes offical Translators of Non English
Languages and this certainly is an increase rather than a decrease in
the standing of languages other than Latin or English in Nova Roma.

Section V is related to Section III. Since English is allready
established as the working language of Nova Roma by the Consulta, it
only makes sense to give the version in the working Language priorty
over the translations in the event of a dispute over meaning. This is
a common precaution international treaties, to spell out which version
shall have priorty in a dispute over meaning between texts.

Section VI is the same as Section V of the Consulta, and enacts
protections for Provincial and private lists into law.

So this lex does Narrow the postion of Non English Languages in Nova
Roma, It increases their stature by establishing offical translations.

Vale,

L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] Language Law
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:07:04 -0500 (EST)

My Apologies-Hit the wrong key again!!!!!

I am now studying Scandanavian History and language for my coming trip
there in April. However, this is a melting pot for those who are
involved with Rome, and ad with the endless variety of culture that was
Rome. With that in mind, the widest possible rangeing language must be
strongly considered for a reasonable and operational approach to the
sharing of that involvemnt for the continued excellent success of Nova
Roma.

Such is my view of the situation. Ultimately, it will come down to the
individual voter, and how he or she sees the situation, as it always
does in each and every vote. However, the citizens of Nova Roma shall
decide what we will do, and I am confident that what the voters decide
will be what is right for Nova Roma. In my experience, it will not be
the result of being harangued, or threatened with disaster, or with the
failure of Nova Roma as we have known it, but rather by the reasoning of
intelligent and caring citizens. The voter will make the decision, and
I am proud to be one such voter and citizen of this micronation, and one
who has always been honored far above my just deserts by my citizen
colleagues.

Respectfully, and Proudly;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Tax Reminders
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:08:54 -0500

Salve,

You can also use Paypal with a checking account instead of a credit
card.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Quaestor
Lictor Curiatus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

-----Original Message-----
From: Navarra Reid [mailto:sacerdos@shaw.ca]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:23 PM
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Tax Reminders

Could someone please inform me of how I can send my taxes in from Canada
without using Paypal. I do not at this time have a credit card, so a
cheque
is all I can offer.

Appia Claudia Indagatrix
Materfamilias Gens Claudia
Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language Law
From:	bsmith3121@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:57:55 EST

Marcus,

Where in Scandinavia are you going? I have spent a fair amount of time in
Norway and love the country and her people.

Vale,

Caius Titinus Varus

In a message dated 2/11/2002 9:10:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@webtv.net writes:

> My Apologies-Hit the wrong key again!!!!!
>
> I am now studying Scandanavian History and language for my coming trip
> there in April. However, this is a melting pot for those who are
> involved with Rome, and ad with the endless variety of culture that was
> Rome. With that in mind, the widest possible rangeing language must be
> strongly considered for a reasonable and operational approach to the
> sharing of that involvemnt for the continued excellent success of Nova
> Roma.
>
> Such is my view of the situation. Ultimately, it will come down to the
> individual voter, and how he or she sees the situation, as it always
> does in each and every vote. However, the citizens of Nova Roma shall
> decide what we will do, and I am confident that what the voters decide
> will be what is right for Nova Roma. In my experience, it will not be
> the result of being harangued, or threatened with disaster, or with the
> failure of Nova Roma as we have known it, but rather by the reasoning of
> intelligent and caring citizens. The voter will make the decision, and
> I am proud to be one such voter and citizen of this micronation, and one
> who has always been honored far above my just deserts by my citizen
> colleagues.
>
> Respectfully, and Proudly;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Norway (Norge)
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:06:22 -0500 (EST)

Master C.T. Varus;

On the advice of some local friends, we have made arrangements to take
the Mail Ship along Norway's western coast from Bergen to Kirkenes (on
the Russian Border) and return. We will then take the electric train
from Myrdal to Flam, and return. We will then fly to Oslo, and spend
some few days hopng to see some of our European Friends, and enjoying
the Norwegian History and culture.

In my preparation studies I find the Norwegian History very interesting
but the language is a little tough--Grin!!!!!!

Do you have any tips for us in Bergen or Oslo?? We are still gathering
information for the best use of our time. My wife is a concert pianist,
but a pretty fair sailor on larger vessels; and I, of course, am a
historian and a consumate sailor from single--handed sailboats to
aircraft carriers. Yes-----, our friends wonder how my wife ever even
looked at me, but such is the luck of the cards in the U.S. -- Double
Grin!!!!!!!!

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Comitia Plebis Tributa are Convened
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:01:56 -0800

Thanks to Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix for the save and to you Gnaeus Salix
Astur. I'm sure you're not stupid, overworked and underpaid maybe, but not
stupid! : )

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@home.com
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

Nam ex parente meo et ex aliis sanctis viris ita accepi munditias mulieribus
laborem viris convenire omnibusque bonis oportere plus gloriae quam
divitiarum esse.
I have learned from my father and other holy men that women are suited to
elegance, while men to work; and that all good people should have more glory
than wealth.
Sallustius Crispus quoting Marius
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
To: <novaroma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Comitia Plebis Tributa are Convened

> Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Sulla.
>
> --- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > You forgot Lucius Mauricius Procopius.
> >
> > Vael,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Consul
>
> Yes I did. Stupid me! :-).
> I offer my apologies to Procopius. I will correct that immediately.
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Tribunus Plebis
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Thules
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
> Lictor Curiatus.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language Law
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	12 Feb 2002 00:10:39 -0200

Em Seg, 2002-02-11 �s 23:52, jmath669642reng@webtv.net escreveu:
> Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> As you have read in the past, I believe this law is the only way that
> Nova Roma can be prevented in becoming another tower of babel, until
> such time as computers can be designed to render reasonable translations
> in a reasonable period of time.
>
> I have read in many of my wife's travel directories that most European
> Nations insure that the language of business in in fact English at this
> point in history. Not French and not Latin but rather English. This
> situation does not indicate that English is a better or more desirable
> language but rather it is the most universal of the languages of this
> historical period, much s French and Latin was during the period when
> those languages were primary for business.
>
> English is taught in almost every nation as a secondary language, during
> ths historical period, and properly should be used as the language of
> business for Nova Roma. In America, other language studies are also
> required for completion of college degrees, and while I have studied
> Spanish and German, I am not skilled in them.
>
> I understand fully, the problem of people who cannot speak English any
> better than I speak Spanish or German, and I enourage these Nova Roma
> Citizens to establish lists in whch they can speak thier native
> language, whatever it may be, and provide translators to share their
> thoughts with the Main List. I have lived abroad for several years and
> have visited many countries. Most countries require a visitor make an
> effort in the language in the countries that are visited and that is
> certainly fair. I am now studying the History and lnguage of
> Scandanavia

Most countries require a visitor to make an effort, this is totally
true, and that is why we should all learn latin.
We did not join the USA, we joined NovaRoma.

In most countries, english is studied because it is a de facto
international language and you can observe that I write in english.
This is totally different from turning it in the de jure official
language of NovaRoma: This definitively stops NovaRoma of being
universal,
just like it stopped the USA of becoming american: they proclame to be
american but are only one of the american nations and don t even
represent all english speaking americans.

This law restricts NovaRoma to northern North-America (since Britain
mass resigned a year ago) and Australia.

English speaking citizens are the majority of NR, they don t need any
legal protection, if you want to protect some one rights it is the
minorities you should look at.

Finally, if the main-list becomes, by law, english only: you will never
have the chance to hear about the minorities that don t speak english.

This is law is discriminatory and counter-productive for NR.

Vale

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes and Timetable
From:	"Claudia Cornelia Puteana" <puteana@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:37:20 +0100

>In about a week the Senate will consider extending the deadline
>by one month, and I think it likely that this will pass. If it
>does we'll send out another announcement to all citizens.

Salvete quirites!

It would be a real relief for me too if we got a little bit more time. I
have to wait for a verification code to appear on my credit card statement.
Unfotunately enough this statement only arrives at the end of the month, so
I hope I'll make it in time.

I'm going to wait for the decision of the senate because I would prefer
paying my taxes all by myself (and not having someone pay them for me, and
have to pay them back, etc...) But please inform us all as quick as
possible, if the deadline stays the same, so that I can try to find a
solution in time.

Vale bene!

Claudia Cornelia Puteana

Sriba Aedilis Consursus Secunda
Acting Praefecta Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque
Occidentalis
www.geocities.com/germania_inferior


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Slight spelling correction
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	12 Feb 2002 00:17:52 -0200

Em Seg, 2002-02-11 �s 22:49, arloro1 escreveu:
> A. Corvus Septimius Manius Villius Limitanus SFR
>
>
> > >
> > Salve,
> >
> > as you know, I am totally opposed to this law, because it ends
> NovaRoma
> > as I have seen it: a Universal Community of people loving Roma.
>
>
> Septimius: A universal community with love enough to revive the
> language as well as its politics ?
>
>
>
> Giving
> > legal precendance on one vernacular language over all others is
> quite
> > the opposite of universality.
>
>
>
>
> Giving
> > legal precendance on one vernacular language over all others is
> quite
> > the opposite of universality.
>
> Septimius: On the contrary,one language throughout our culture could
> only bring us closer together. Latin would be my first choice.Wouldnt
> you agree? Not only is it a practical regular language, it gives
> breath to the culture.No one mentioned our Nova Roman brothers and
> sisters who are in different parts of the globe, end speaking in their
> native tongue. I sence that you are trying to please our cives, thats
> commendable, since you are running for Tribunis Plebis.---And by the
> way, so am I :)---
>

Ofc ourse I agree with you. I wrote "one vernacular language", which
clearly excludes latin. Latin is OUR language, english is just one
language spoken by a majority of NR citizens and should be nothing more
than that.

>
>
> >
> > I think there should be no legal technicality problem in accepting
> this
> > draft, but I feel that what happened should be interpreted as a bad
> omen
> > send by the Gods.
>
>
> Septimius: You have never mentioned before, about being an Augur. How
> long have you studied this extremely lengthy process? I really do hope
> that you mention this with our beloved Gods' will.Because I have seen
> the consiquences of someone playing with the religio in this manner.
> And it is NOT a pretty picture.If I am wrong, and you are an Augur,
> accept my apollogies. That being said, I will continue with the
> assumption that you are not. I certainly hope that you view the post
> of Tribunis Plebis as you obviously view the Religio Romana! As a
> game?!
>

I am not an augur, I was refeering to the political actions of ancient
Rome, where non-augurs/pontifeces regularly used this argument (in fact
mostly against plebiscita)

> And I am quite sure that it would have been treated
> > like that in ancient Roma.
>
>
> Septimius: Using the Gods for your political goals. There may have
> been those in Roma Antica that would do such a thing. But look at what
> happened to them. Think again before you use this obvious tactic.Its
> very offensive to those of us who invoke them with good intent.
> As for the folley of the Comitia Plebis (leaving out a candidate),
> this to, I question sincerity in the matter.I will not take my
> honorable post of Tribunis Plebis so lightly ( if the people wish me
> to be in their service).And, I must state that your call to withold
> this law AND not calling for the same action taken on the Comitia
> Plebis, reaks of just another polititian who is so hungry for votes,
> that he/she would step on common decency.
>

Look at the times of reply (not of reception on the list, remember I am
still censured), I replied to Sulla before I received the mention of
a missing candidate for Tribune.
Yes the same can be said for the forthcoming tribune election, we should
all wait for another window.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:32:26 +0100

Salve L. Corneli Sulla Consul,
Salvete Quirites

On 2/12/02 1:43 AM, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

>>I simply don't understand why this decision has been taken so fast.
>>People from outside USA have A LOT of problems with paying this fee.
>>
>
> Because Nova Roma is growing and her expenses are also increasing. This has
> been discussed many many times in the past. I suggest you go into the
> archieves and read those debates

I know these issues but I was not referring to them. I was referring to
the over-rushed implementation of this lex, leaving not even 30 days to pay.

>>1. There are a some scaring reports about abuses at Penpal. So I will
>>understand anyone refusing to pay through this service
>
> There are? I have not seen, heard nor experience any such abuse at all. I
> have used paypal extensively for purchases of a wide variety of products on
> the Internet. I have used paypal at least 60 times and my fiancee, Prima
> Cornelia Pulchra has used paypal at least 200+ times with no negative
> results.

Sure. I don't contest everything can go well. But I wouldn't like to be
hit by bad luck. Since you are not aware of the abuses, check out this
website. It is NOT hoax: http://www.paypalwarning.com/

>>2. If paying through Penpal, you must know that international customers
>>have first to be confirmed, that means a delay of at least 2 month
>
> That is not true either. We have already received a number of international
> payments.

Sure, people already having an account can pay directly. But those not
having an
account yet will need to 1) register 2) pay a small amount to Paypal 3)
wait for
their Credit Card Statement to come in by snail mail (usually after one
month)
4) Make their first payment - the small amount payed in #2 will be payed
back

>>3. International money orders are not a solution either, since the
>>banking taxes raise to 15 EUR for sending 13 EUR. Are you kidding?
>
> This is why I prefered to raise the tax initially beyond the $12.00 however,
> Consul Flavius Vedius decided on the lower amount. The Senate agreed with
> him.

What about this:

IV. The Senate shall, with the aid and assistance of the local
governors, assign Publicani (sing. Publican) to assist with the
efficient and cost-effective collection of taxes, where it deems
appropriate.

I have not heard of a Publican in my Provincia and I would think this to
be a good solution.

>>In the name of all citizens living outside the USA, I request:
>>
>>1. The deadline to be delayed by at least 2 months, that is April 30 OR
>>as long item #2 below is not resolved.
>>
>
> I am presenting an agenda item to the Senate to delay the deadline for a
> month.
>
>
>>2. An acceptable solution to be found for international payments.
>>
>
> This is something I intend to look into during my tenure as Consul.
> However, I should stress that the problems with paypal have been on the
> whole minimal. Many citizens outside of the US have been able to process
> their payments successfully without any trouble at all.

I think, as Consul you should take care that the Senatvs Consvlta be
applied correctly. The Senatus Consultus about taxation has 4 points
1. What it is about
2. Amount of Tax
3. Deadline of paying tax
4. Publicani

As much as I can see, this Senatus consultus has only been partially
implemented, and that's why I think you should exceptionally delay the
payment UNTIL the WHOLE SenatusConsultus is implemented.

Vale bene

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	[novaroma] Drusa Gens
From:	Krysialtemus@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:51:13 EST

Ave,
I inadvertantly deleted an e-mail from a person inquiring about the Drusa gens. Please contact me so that I can assist you. Caecilia Drusa Dalmatica


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:28:29 -0800

"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" wrote:

> Salve L. Corneli Sulla Consul,
> Salvete Quirites

Avete Omnes,

>
>
> On 2/12/02 1:43 AM, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> >>I simply don't understand why this decision has been taken so fast.
> >>People from outside USA have A LOT of problems with paying this fee.
>
> >>
> >
> > Because Nova Roma is growing and her expenses are also increasing.
> This has
> > been discussed many many times in the past. I suggest you go into
> the
> > archieves and read those debates
>
> I know these issues but I was not referring to them. I was referring
> to
> the over-rushed implementation of this lex, leaving not even 30 days
> to pay.

Sulla: I am certainly glad that you know those issues. Your first post
did not seem to grasp that. I still disagree with your assumption that
this was too fast. First Nova Roma has been in existence for 4 years
without having a tax. Secondly, According to the Tabularium the Senatus
Consultum was passed in July. From July to now thats what...8-9
months? The People of Nova Roma have known about this tax for 8-9
months. I do not think that is rushing things at all. Is it too much
to ask that our citizens be a bit proactive? I do not think so.

>
>
> >>1. There are a some scaring reports about abuses at Penpal. So I
> will
> >>understand anyone refusing to pay through this service
> >
> > There are? I have not seen, heard nor experience any such abuse at
> all. I
> > have used paypal extensively for purchases of a wide variety of
> products on
> > the Internet. I have used paypal at least 60 times and my fiancee,
> Prima
> > Cornelia Pulchra has used paypal at least 200+ times with no
> negative
> > results.
>
> Sure. I don't contest everything can go well. But I wouldn't like to
> be
> hit by bad luck. Since you are not aware of the abuses, check out this
>
> website. It is NOT hoax: http://www.paypalwarning.com/
>

Sulla: Thank you for the info. Yes I am not surprised I see all the
alternatives they are sponsering to that do the exact same thing. There
are sites similar to this about Earthlink, AOL, Ebay, you name it there
is a site. You will always have some customers who are not satisfied.

>
> >>2. If paying through Penpal, you must know that international
> customers
> >>have first to be confirmed, that means a delay of at least 2 month
> >
> > That is not true either. We have already received a number of
> international
> > payments.
>
> Sure, people already having an account can pay directly. But those not
>
> having an
> account yet will need to 1) register 2) pay a small amount to Paypal
> 3)
> wait for
> their Credit Card Statement to come in by snail mail (usually after
> one
> month)
> 4) Make their first payment - the small amount payed in #2 will be
> payed
> back
>

Sulla: Once again, this goes back to my first comment. Citizens of
Nova Roma have known taxes were going to be paid by the end of February.

>
> >>3. International money orders are not a solution either, since the
> >>banking taxes raise to 15 EUR for sending 13 EUR. Are you kidding?
> >
> > This is why I prefered to raise the tax initially beyond the $12.00
> however,
> > Consul Flavius Vedius decided on the lower amount. The Senate
> agreed with
> > him.
>
> What about this:
>
> IV. The Senate shall, with the aid and assistance of the local
> governors, assign Publicani (sing. Publican) to assist with the
> efficient and cost-effective collection of taxes, where it deems
> appropriate.
>
> I have not heard of a Publican in my Provincia and I would think this
> to
> be a good solution.
>

Sulla: Publicani are not a viable solution at this time due to the
costs of insuring/bonding (this was also done via a vote in December),
then there is the cost for their setup (mailboxes, bank accts, etc) It
was/is not cost effective. Also, we have tried to set up a contact
point in Europe (under Titus Octavius Pius) however even those costs in
setup would undercut any amount of tax that would have been collected.
And, when some of our International citizens were able to pay via paypal
it was recommended that paypal would be the main focal point of tax
collection.

>
> >>In the name of all citizens living outside the USA, I request:
> >>
> >>1. The deadline to be delayed by at least 2 months, that is April 30
> OR
> >>as long item #2 below is not resolved.
> >>
> >
> > I am presenting an agenda item to the Senate to delay the deadline
> for a
> > month.
> >
> >
> >>2. An acceptable solution to be found for international payments.
> >>
> >
> > This is something I intend to look into during my tenure as Consul.
> > However, I should stress that the problems with paypal have been on
> the
> > whole minimal. Many citizens outside of the US have been able to
> process
> > their payments successfully without any trouble at all.
>
> I think, as Consul you should take care that the Senatvs Consvlta be
> applied correctly. The Senatus Consultus about taxation has 4 points
> 1. What it is about
> 2. Amount of Tax
> 3. Deadline of paying tax
> 4. Publicani
>

All points execpt for number 4 have been addressed. Number 4 will not
be implemented anytime soon given the costs associated with it.

>
> As much as I can see, this Senatus consultus has only been partially
> implemented, and that's why I think you should exceptionally delay the
>
> payment UNTIL the WHOLE SenatusConsultus is implemented.
>

The Senatus Consultum has been implmented. It is your choice to decide
if you will comply with it or not too. The choice is yours. Many of
our citizens, both international and domestic have already paid. I am
certain that many more will continue to pay and help Nova Roma gain the
financial stability She deserves.

Very Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul of Nova Roma

>
> Vale bene
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> Friburgii Helvetiorum
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Norway (Norge)
From:	bsmith3121@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:03:17 EST

Salve Marcus,

I am envious! Norway is a wonderful place - so wonderful that I am constantly
trying to think of ways to move there. My wife says that she will go for two
years, but I just can't seem to get my kids excited about it.

We have some friends that take that same trip every year and they absolutely
love it. You will love the train ride down to Flam - some of the most
beautiful scenery in the world. Flam is a bit touristy, but is still worth a
visit. My tips for Bergen and Oslo:

Bergen - Take a rain coat and hat. It rains a lot there. Be sure to take the
funnicular for the best view of the city. Bergen has tons of great
restaurants, good museums, and great shopping. Also, since your wife is a
concert pianist, go see the Edvard Grieg home and museum.

Oslo - The Viegland park is a must see, as are the Kon-Tiki and Viking
museums. Oslo is the place to be on May 17 if you are there then. Make sure
you go on a harbor tour as well.

Make sure to post some pictures. Have a great time!

Vale,

Caius Titinius Varus
Integrity is Paramount


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:31:20 +0100

Salve L. Corneli Sulla Felix, Consul, ceterique Quirites,

On 2/12/02 4:28 PM, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
> Consultum was passed in July. From July to now thats what...8-9
> months? The People of Nova Roma have known about this tax for 8-9
> months. I do not think that is rushing things at all. Is it too much
> to ask that our citizens be a bit proactive? I do not think so.

Believe me, I like taking initiatives. However I still believe this
should have been announced at the beginning of January and not at the
beginning of February (Feb. 10 to be exact) for this deadline (Feb 28).
Also, I'm wondering what our government has done in 8-9 months given
that collecting taxes from outside USA is a total chaos. I'm not making
things up, I'm listening to what others say in the provinces.

>>It is NOT hoax: http://www.paypalwarning.com/
> Sulla: Thank you for the info. Yes I am not surprised I see all the
> alternatives they are sponsering to that do the exact same thing.

Except that the other instances involved are BANKS which is not the case
for PayPal. And this is a HUGE difference.

>>What about this:
>>
>>IV. The Senate shall, with the aid and assistance of the local
>>governors, assign Publicani (sing. Publican) to assist with the
>>efficient and cost-effective collection of taxes, where it deems
>>appropriate.
>>
>>I have not heard of a Publican in my Provincia and I would think this
>>to
>>be a good solution.
>
> Sulla: Publicani are not a viable solution at this time due to the
> costs of insuring/bonding (this was also done via a vote in December),
> then there is the cost for their setup (mailboxes, bank accts, etc) It
> was/is not cost effective. Also, we have tried to set up a contact
> point in Europe (under Titus Octavius Pius) however even those costs in
> setup would undercut any amount of tax that would have been collected.
> And, when some of our International citizens were able to pay via paypal
> it was recommended that paypal would be the main focal point of tax
> collection.
>
>
>>I think, as Consul you should take care that the Senatvs Consvlta be
>>applied correctly. The Senatus Consultus about taxation has 4 points
>>1. What it is about
>>2. Amount of Tax
>>3. Deadline of paying tax
>>4. Publicani
>>
> All points execpt for number 4 have been addressed. Number 4 will not
> be implemented anytime soon given the costs associated with it.
>

Oh, wait one second. What's this supposed to be? We pass Senatus
Consulta and choose what parts of them we want to apply. That's great!
So I'll choose to apply #1, #2 and #3. Maybe someone else will want to
skip #2 as well. This can't be serious! Or has this Senatusconsultum
been ammended? then it would be damn helpful to have it notified on the
original SenatusConsultum.

That's the work done in 8-9 months...

Vale Bene,
G. Noviodunus Ferriculus

P.S. Sorry if you have been offended by the tone of my reply. I've been
offended too by how a Consul is talking to the Cives.

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:51:16 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: G. Noviodunus Ferriculus
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due

Salve L. Corneli Sulla Felix, Consul, ceterique Quirites,

On 2/12/02 4:28 PM, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
> Consultum was passed in July. From July to now thats what...8-9
> months? The People of Nova Roma have known about this tax for 8-9
> months. I do not think that is rushing things at all. Is it too much
> to ask that our citizens be a bit proactive? I do not think so.

Believe me, I like taking initiatives. However I still believe this
should have been announced at the beginning of January and not at the
beginning of February (Feb. 10 to be exact) for this deadline (Feb 28).
Also, I'm wondering what our government has done in 8-9 months given
that collecting taxes from outside USA is a total chaos. I'm not making
things up, I'm listening to what others say in the provinces.

Sulla: I agere with you that this should have been announced in the beginning of January. This is precisely why I am going to seek an extention of a month with the Senate of Nova Roma.

>>It is NOT hoax: http://www.paypalwarning.com/
> Sulla: Thank you for the info. Yes I am not surprised I see all the
> alternatives they are sponsering to that do the exact same thing.

Except that the other instances involved are BANKS which is not the case
for PayPal. And this is a HUGE difference.

Sulla: Paypal is not a bank, we are well aware of that fact. The funds that are sent via paypal are deposited into Nova Roma's bank account, when we initiate the Transfer to our bank account.

>>What about this:
>>
>>IV. The Senate shall, with the aid and assistance of the local
>>governors, assign Publicani (sing. Publican) to assist with the
>>efficient and cost-effective collection of taxes, where it deems
>>appropriate.
>>
>>I have not heard of a Publican in my Provincia and I would think this
>>to
>>be a good solution.
>
> Sulla: Publicani are not a viable solution at this time due to the
> costs of insuring/bonding (this was also done via a vote in December),
> then there is the cost for their setup (mailboxes, bank accts, etc) It
> was/is not cost effective. Also, we have tried to set up a contact
> point in Europe (under Titus Octavius Pius) however even those costs in
> setup would undercut any amount of tax that would have been collected.
> And, when some of our International citizens were able to pay via paypal
> it was recommended that paypal would be the main focal point of tax
> collection.
>
>
>>I think, as Consul you should take care that the Senatvs Consvlta be
>>applied correctly. The Senatus Consultus about taxation has 4 points
>>1. What it is about
>>2. Amount of Tax
>>3. Deadline of paying tax
>>4. Publicani
>>
> All points execpt for number 4 have been addressed. Number 4 will not
> be implemented anytime soon given the costs associated with it.
>

Oh, wait one second. What's this supposed to be? We pass Senatus
Consulta and choose what parts of them we want to apply. That's great!

Sulla: The Senatus Consulta stated the Senate "Shall" Not the Senate WILL or in any way compel the Senate. The discretion lies with the Senate if they are going to appoint 0 or 1000 publicani. Based on IV. of the Senatus Consultum

<SNIP>

P.S. Sorry if you have been offended by the tone of my reply. I've been
offended too by how a Consul is talking to the Cives.

Sulla: I have not gotten upset at all with this entire conversation. You have your points and I have been responding likewise. It is unfortunate that you are thinking that I am being rude. Because it is not true.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:35:29 +0100

On 2/12/02 5:51 PM, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> I agere with you that this should have been announced in the beginning
> of January. This is precisely why I am going to seek an extention of
> a month with the Senate of Nova Roma.

Ok, sounds fair to me. Now I hope this additional delay will allow us to
get organized...

> Paypal is not a bank, we are well aware of that fact. The funds that
> are sent via paypal are deposited into Nova Roma's bank account, when
> we initiate the Transfer to our bank account.

I pray the gods nothing will happen to our money while transiting
through PayPal.

> The Senatus Consulta stated the Senate "Shall" Not the Senate WILL or
> in any way compel the Senate. The discretion lies with the Senate if
> they are going to appoint 0 or 1000 publicani. Based on IV. of the
> Senatus Consultum

Ok, "Shall". But I'm also reading "Where it deems appropriate". And I
think it is appropriate in this situation. So if no Publican is assigned
in such a situation or any other viable solution can be found, I can
only say the Senate failed to implement this Consultum.

Why this would be appropriate here? For several reasons you might know,
since you also read the archives. But here a few reasons pro memoria:
- Europeans don't know what a "checking account" is. Most of them don't
have one
- While credit cards are more common than checking accounts, they still
are not as wide-spread as in the US. And I'm living my life fine without
a credit card - Thank you.
- International money orders are expensive. Especially with small
amounts where the bank commission can be higher than the amount, but is
still high with bigger amounts.

So I'd like to widen this discussion a little bit - even if it's
repetition. Because I have the impression that the citizens from within
the US who are governing us - and who have still the louder voice -
still haven't understood that Europe is not the same as US and should
respect these differences. As much as I am involved, I canot imagine
another solution than paying my taxes to a local tax-collector who will
pay my part to the central government. If I'm not misunderstanding this
whole story completely, half of the tax money will come back anyways to
the provinces. So there must be at least one truthworthy person in each
province, otherwise you couldn't do that, right? And if this person
exists, there is no need to the cost effective insuring/bonding.
So what's the problem?

Also, I would like something to be added to the SenatusConsultum about
taxation:
What happens if someone sends the money too late? Will the answer be:
ok, we take the money but you still canot become an asiduus, or we take
the money but you won't have to pay next year, or we refund the money,
or we take the money and you are made asiduus with a little delay.
Thank you for your time and I hope you are getting my point: I want to
pay my taxes because I want NovaRoma to be an exciting patria of which I
am civis.

Vale bene
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:46:27 -0500 (EST)

Mistress Appia Claudia Indagatrix;

In response to your request for assistance, may I respectfully suggest
that you contact Senator Strabo (see above) in this regard. She too
lives in Canada, and has recently written to the Main List regard the
Tax Payment.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due
From:	labienus@texas.net
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:06:57 US/Central

Salvete

I have one minor point to make. Please do not construe my making it to imply
any opinion on the rest of the conversation taking place.

> Sulla: The Senatus Consulta stated the Senate "Shall" Not the Senate WILL
> or in any way compel the Senate. The discretion lies with the Senate if they
> are going to appoint 0 or 1000 publicani. Based on IV. of the Senatus
> Consultum

In legal documents, the word "shall" defines a specific obligation. If a legal
document says that a party shall do something, then that party is legally bound
to do that thing. The word "will" is dispreferred legally, as it also refers
to a testamentary document. Usually, "shall" and "will" are taken as
synonymous, and opposed to "may" and "can", as the latter do not define an
obligation.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes, Paypal, etc.
From:	"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:10:53 -0000

Salvete Appia Claudia, Gai Noviodunue et Omnes,

As one of the Consular Quaestores responsible for the collection and
recording of taxes, please allow me to try and address some of the
concerns, which have been raised. I apologize for the length of this
post.

Timing � It is true that taxes, and the February due date, were
discussed far back into 2001. In fact, the Senate Consulta of July
18, 2754 (2001) set the end of February due date. However, some
newer cives, or some that perhaps do not follow the main list
closely, may well have been surprised by the apparent abruptness of
the payment announcement.

My apologies for this. Many matters of payment method, tracking,
bonding of those who might handle funds, transfer of information
regarding Nova Roma's Paypal and Bank account information, etc. had
to be resolved before we felt we could make the announcement. After
all this is the first time for us all. Consul Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Felix is petitioning the Senate to extend the deadline to the end of
March. We believe that will be sufficient for most cives. If any
cive has a particular problem, please e-mail me at
payments@noveroma.org and I will present your problem to the
Consuls. I am sure anyone who truly wishes to pay the tax and fully
participate will not be denied a dispensation for any reasonable set
of circumstances. It is not anyone's intention to punish cives or to
turn down tax dollars. :-)

Payment Method � Paypal is the preferred method. The Consuls and
Consular Quaestores believe that it is secure, convenient, quick,
handles international currency conversions automatically, and can be
tracked using tools on their site to ensure that no payment is lost.

Paypal can be used with a credit card or a bank account. So for
cives like Appia Claudia, Paypal and a checking account is an
option. Alternatively, checks drawn on US banks or money orders can
be sent to the address at the tax link on the Nova Roma website (not
to the PO Box in Maine please). For non-US cives who cannot use
Paypal, the only reasonable method we have been able to devise is a
US dollar denominated money order. If anyone has another idea,
please e-mail me at the above address.

We have already received Paypal payments from Germaina, Thule,
Gallia, Brasilia, Britannica, and Ireland without problem. Indeed,
some cives have been notified by Paypal that they will have to wait
for their monthly credit card statement to have their Paypal account
confirmed. Consul Sulla's extension should accommodate those cives.

Publicani � The July 2754 Senate Consultum provides that the Senate
shall assign Publicani for collection of taxes "where it (i.e. the
Senate) deems appropriate." Although I am not privy to the
deliberations of the Senate, I am told that they do not feel
Publicani are appropriate for this year. There are issues of timing
and bonding that raised obstacles. If anyone has an idea as to how
Publicani would help the process, please e-mail me.

Paypal Security � Paypal has been used for several years on the Nova
Roma website without any problems. I have used Paypal for several
personal purchases without problem. I am soliciting some information
from more experienced cives on Paypal's performance and I will post
it when available. As to the "Paypal warning" link that was posted,
I read the site and really can't comment. I cannot substantiate any
of the site's allegations which run contrary to the experience of our
cives who have had input into the selection of Paypal. Personally,
the site looks to me like someone has a particular "axe to grind"
with Paypal and too much time on their hands.

Paypal is not a bank and our funds on deposit there are not insured
by any government agency. However, funds are routinely transferred
from Paypal to Nova Roma's bank account, which is insured by the
Federal government of the United States up to $100,000. We are in no
current danger of exceeding this limit. :-)

Record Keeping - Curator Araneum Marcus Octavius Germanicus has
created a web-based tool, which allows the Consular Quaestores to
enter payments. It not only creates a record of the payment, but e-
mails a receipt to the cive, and supplies the information to the
Censores necessary to apply the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti
Censi. In addition, I am maintaining a spreadsheet of all payments
including the Province so the appropriate amounts can be returned to
the Provinces, as well as a complete set of accounting records
(general ledger, etc.) Every bit of tax collected will be properly
accounted for.

Let me say this. I know taxes are a controversial issue. In my
opinion, and that of cives expressed through the comitia, we are at
the point where taxes are necessary for Nova Roma to take the next
steps. Your magistrates and the Senate have worked hard to set up a
system that is fair and workable. It is my fervent belief that any
citizen who truly wishes to pay the tax can find a way to do so.
(For example, some have had gens mates pay for them and then
exchanged cash locally). Those who choose not to pay may still
participate in Nova Roma.

Send any questions or ideas, etc. to payments@novaroma.org.

My thanks to my colleague, Titus Octavius Pius and to the Consuls for
all of their help and efforts.

Valete and with all respect,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Consular Quaestor


Subject:	[novaroma] Quaestore E-Mail
From:	"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:16:04 -0000

The full text of the address for those who migh need it is:

"payments@noveroma.org"

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re: New CD
From:	"Claudia Cornelia Puteana" <puteana@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:59:12 +0100

> I want to know if you know websites where I can download roman music. It's
> enough little part of song too.
Thank you

Salve amice!

I suggest you take a look at this site:
http://www.ancestral.co.uk/romanmusic.htm There are quite some soundsamples
here, and some of them are really nice.

Vale bene!

Claudia Cornelia Puteana

Sriba Aedilis Consursus Secunda
Acting Praefecta Sodalitatis Egressi Germaniae Inferioris Europaeque
Occidentalis
www.geocities.com/germania_inferior


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Annual Tax Now Due
From:	"marcia_columbia_rex" <oldsabre@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:20:01 -0000

Avete Omnes!

I have read this post and some of the resulting disputes on the
matter. May I offer my opinion on it?

I find the annual taxes to be well within Nova Roma's pervue. To
assess them to all cives, regardless of station or location is only
fair. I do balk at the idea of paying online but that is my personal
choice. I have since paid by check these dues and have requested that
all members of Gens Columbia do likewise in paying their annual tax.
Let's face it, $12.00 U.S. is not that much! It certainly won't break
the bank for anyone except the very poor. To quibble about this
amount is a dull point to bring up. When I was a Civil War reenactor
the annual dues were twice to three times as high. For me to pay this
amount is peanuts, comparatively speaking.
I would ask, though, once all the dues are collected for an itemized
accounting to be posted, for all cives to view, that will show where
these funds so collected have gone and how they were used.
If Nova Roma would do that I, as a cive and Materfamilias of my gens,
will always be more than happy to pay my annual obligation.

Valete!

Marcia Columbia Rex
America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Julius Caesar
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:17:38 -0800 (PST)

Thought everyone might get a kick out of this. It is
in the Washington Post.

PROVIDENCE, R.I. �� Media mogul Ted Turner says the
Sept. 11 attacks
were an act of desperation, and the hijackers were
"brave" but probably
"a little nuts."Turner, in a lecture at Brown
University, also
compared President Bush to Julius Caesar.In a
wide-ranging address
Monday, the AOL Time Warner vice chairman said the
attacks on the World Trade
Center the Pentagon were an outgrowth of
poverty."The reason that
the World Trade Center got hit is because there are a
lot of people
living in abject poverty out there who don't have any
hope for a better
life," he said.He said the attacks were an act of
desperation, and that
Americans lack an understanding of a willingness to
die for one's
country."I think they were brave at the very
least," Turner said of the
19 airliner hijackers believed to have committed the
attacks, adding
that they "might have been a little nuts."Turner
made the comment
during a question and answer session after he
delivered a le!
cture on international affairs. An attempt to reach
him for comment
Tuesday via AOL Time Warner spokeswoman Tricia
Primrose was unsuccessful
because she did not immediately return a phone
call.Turner also gave
his opinion on the 2000 elections and Al Gore's loss
in the
presidential race."A few more votes in Florida, and
we could have had the best
environmental president we ever had," he said. "Now
we've got an oil
man. He (President Bush) is like another Julius
Caesar. Just what we
need."Asked if he would allow public access to his
vast landholdings in
Montana, he replied: "Can I live in your home with
you? We believe in
private property in this country.""You buy it and
you can share it,"
Turner said.Turner was expelled from Brown in his
junior year in
1960 after he was caught living with a girlfriend in
his dorm room. The
Ivy League school awarded him his undergraduate degree
12 years ago.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes (Canadian Citizens)
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:58:19 -0000

---Salvete Omnes Provinciae Canadae:

I apologize for my tardy reply. I've been working and sleeping :(

What I am doing in Canada Orientalis: I have offered that people may
send their tax money to me, in Canadian funds (I have established the
sum to be $18.00); I will issue the taxpayer an electronic receipt.
I will then forward a bulk sum payment to the Consular Quaestor, with
a list of those citizens who paid me.

If anyone is Canada Occidentalis would like to send me their payment,
please contact me privately and I will give you the particulars.

The rationale behind this, of course is that, it will save each
citizen a $5.00 money order fee, and having to worry about standing
in line at the bank.

DO NOT , DO NOT (not yelling!)......send the Consular Quaestor a
Canadian Cheque marked "U.S. Funds" at the bottom. You will be
literally soaked for banking fees, from your bank, then the U.S. bank
corresponding to the Canadian bank, and then the recipient U.S.
bank. If you are going to do this, pay taxes for another citizen
instead, as this is what the extra fees will amount too.

I'll post a note to Occidentalis list too on this.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix Canada Orientalis
Nova Roma

In novaroma@y..., jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Mistress Appia Claudia Indagatrix;
>
> In response to your request for assistance, may I respectfully
suggest
> that you contact Senator Strabo (see above) in this regard. She too
> lives in Canada, and has recently written to the Main List regard
the
> Tax Payment.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language Law
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:03:32 -0500 (EST)

Citizens Of Nova Roma;

Learning Latin is of course an honorable goal, and one to which evey
student of Roman History must give some consideration. However, I am
not so ambitious as to blindly demand such a course to such a widely
varied group of citizens as yourselves who have many more pressing
interests, engagements, responsibilities, and commitments than the
learning of a new language. Such an effort to communicate comfortably
will require, even under excellent instruction from 6 months to a
year--longer if you must teach yourself--for me a daunting undertaking
particularly in light of my present commitments for the coming year. I
would suppose that many of you have simlar arrangements, as both active
citizens in the macroworld as well as in this micronation.

In regard to being named "Americans," that title was first placed here
by Europeans after the voyage of discovery by Amerigo Vespucci. It is a
nickname generally used by Europeans to identify those of the western
culture. It refers in it's broadest sense to the Western Hemisphere and
the two "American" continents. Generally the term is reserved for North
Americans because of thier similarity in the English language, but I
have heard the term applied to visitors from Panama, Columbia, Brazil,
as well as Canada and the U.S. English, while being the dominant
language in Canada, England, Sctland, Ireland, Australia, and the U.S.
is also spoken in virtually every country in the world as a business,
second or even third language. The English Language is not in an of
itself a threat to any specific culture, but in this period of history
is simply a way of communcation by which more people can carry out thier
desires, just as French was, and just as Latin was, and just as
Esperanto was designed to do in thier historical periods. It (English)
does not require an agreement with U.S. political policies, Canadian
culture, Irish folklore, English or Scottish cuisine, or the ideas of
Australian business practices. It is merely the language of
communication throughout the world in our historical period. Nothing
more.

I don't believe that anyone needs to be reminded that the citizens of
Nova Roma have not joined the U.S. Such comments, I view as merely
inflammatory and not seriously involved in addressing the problem. The
problem here is communication pure and simple, and is in the larger
sense one of the major problems of the world today. Each person in Nova
Roma is proud of his / her native country, as I am proud of mine, but
this is not about macronations this is about Nova Roma, a micronation
who is experiencing some problems in communication with all of her
members and potential members as well. Let us not degenerate into
arguments about political rivalries as such, is indeed,
counterproductive.

Latin has been declared as the official language of Nova Roma. English
has been declared the business language of Nova Roma, as it has in most
countries of the world. Translators will be established in the proposed
Law, and NR Citizens who have no English will be encouraged to use those
translators. Our Main List is very correctly set up to encourage and
recieve translations from Latin and other languages for the enjoyment of
all citizens, and has under our excellent Moderator announced such on
many occasions and has been generously supported by a Nova Roma Citizen
supported restoration to that position, and to that purpose.

I really canot believe that a Numidian Slave Trader, Germanic Tribesman,
Syrian Merchant, or a Northern Gaul, traveling to Rome in 73 A.D. would
demand that Romans abandon their busines language of that day (Latin) to
accomodate a single individual. Based on the individual's importance,
translators would be offered, perhaps scribes provided, and perhaps even
multi-lingual slaves assigned to the visitor's house-hold during the
individual's stay. But the business of the day throughout Rome would
continue to be carried out on a daily basis in Latin. Today the
international language of business is English, and much the same
scenario is being carried out and proposed in Nova Roma as in the above
example.

I do not understand how a fragmented Main List, allowing the various
languages without translations attached would bring Nova Roma closer
together. Spanish, German, Portuguese, French, Greek, Dutch, Norwegian,
Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Italian, not to mention the many other
languages and even more dialects of the Middle East, Africa, and South
America. I am not aware currently that we have any orientals within
Nova Roma, but Certainly Chinese, Japanes, Korean, Vietnamese and other
Far East as well as the Island languages of the Pacific Basin must be
considered (If I have left anyone out, my apologies). Currently we are
dealing with this problem by translation into English, while our
citizenship learns Latin at the pace that is commensurate with their
various and widely different life patterns.

To write Britain off because of a few people who chose not to honor
their commitments, I find faintly disturbing, and probably even more so
to those Britons who remain among us, and who are most welcome.

So, in conclusion there are several ways for people who have no English
to communicate on the Main List. True, it is more time-consuming than
the use of English, but it is doable,particularly if your native
language is used only by a small number of those whom you wish to share
ideas with. The Proposed law will make it even easier. Certainly, a
law which makes it easier for all regardless of their language and
culture to share thier ideas, thoughts, wishes, and comments cannot be
either limiting or discrimatory. Certainly any effort to improve the
situation of those citizens and potential citizens of Nova Roma can
hardly be called counterproductive.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Annual Tax Now Due
From:	labienus@texas.net
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:07:20 US/Central

Salvete Marcia Columbia omnesque

> I would ask, though, once all the dues are collected for an itemized
> accounting to be posted, for all cives to view, that will show where
> these funds so collected have gone and how they were used.

This already exists. Every year, the Senate votes upon a budget. That budget
is then posted in the Aerarium Saturni section of the main site for all comers
to view. The URL is http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html .

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	[novaroma] Accounting For Taxes
From:	"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:17:47 -0000

Salvete,

Thanks to Praetor Titus Labienus Fortunatus for pointing out where
the annual budget may be found. The moneys of Nova Roma are to be
used at the discretion of the Senate, which sets the budget.

As for the accounting for the tax collections, I will post at the NR
web-site the results (no names - thant info. is for use of the
Censores)once the collection process is completed.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Consular Quaestor


Subject:	[novaroma] Lesson III
From:	Alexander La <arlarosa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:20:57 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

I�m living in Venezuela, There are others cives living
near?

Q. Octavius Hipanicus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidates Without a Plan
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:14:28 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

One or two persons have written in under this thread and asked what
platform or plan the candidates for Tribune have in mind. Personally,
I don't think that they need a particular plan, unless they have some
passion involving a change they would like to make with respect to
some law or procedure involving the populace.

All I would be concerned with, is if one had the time to put into the
position, and if there was anything which might prove a conflict of
interest in the performance of their duties.

This was touched on in the election contio of December. Being a
member of another organization and how this will affect one's time is
a consideration, another being maybe if one is in a client/patron
relationship.

I know if I were voting I would be very interested in knowing if any
of the candidates for Tribune are clients of another citizen, or
particularily, another magistrate. This subject materialized last
Spring when Quintus Sertorius came under criticism for failure to
disclose his client-patron relationship until after he was elected
Tribune.

I would not want to see anyone put themselves in this predicament.
In all fairness, however, I believe those upset with Sertorius had a
legitimate beef; if a candidate is cliental to another in a bona fide
situation, he would do well to let his prospective constituents know
the particulars: to whom he owes his patronage, why, and to what
extent he feels the relationship will influence his ability to make
sound, objective decisions for the plebians (and Patricians!) of Nova
Roma.

The voting populace can then make a more informed decision regarding
the qualifications of one's candidature.

Although there is certainly no law against client/patron
relationships, there are mixed feelings about them. There is also no
law requiring one to disclose such per se. But failure to disclose
pertinent facts, which could even be covertly disclosed after the
election, will, as the archives attest, disillusion people, and
likely do little for a candidates future political career.

Some thoughts.

Without prejudice and with due respect,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Praetrix et Senatrix
NOVA ROMA


Subject:	[novaroma] Candidate for Plebian Aedile
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:16:40 -0000

Salvete Honoured Tribunes:

Is my brain on vacation, or did Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
not declare for Plebian Aedile? The last list I saw was missing
Procopious as Tribune Candidate, but now, I don't believe Curio was
on there either.

If I am wrong, I apologize...just a flash thought.

Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Comitia Plebis Tributa are Convened
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:27:07 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Procopi.

--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@attbi.com> wrote:
> Thanks to Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix for the save and to you Gnaeus
> Salix Astur. I'm sure you're not stupid, overworked and underpaid
> maybe, but not stupid! : )

Perhaps you are right, after all :-).

Please forgive my forgetfulness once more. I read your candidacy
statement, but I somehow lost it.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] NOVA ROMA - Annual memberships now due / Tribunicial report
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:50:07 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete Quirites.

As part of my responsabilities as Tribunus Plebis, I have received a
few questions and comments from our citizenry on these last days about
taxation. I think it is my duty to inform you all about the conclusions
I have extracted.

1.- Most of our citizens think that this system has not been fully
implemented. Consul Sulla says that citizens have had over 9 months to
prepare themsleves for this payment. I wonder if the government has
actually done *everything* they could to ease this transition.

2.- Many of our European citizens are wondering if they can actually
pay taxes in euros, to avoid exchange rates. This possibility is not
clear yet.

3.- Many citizens would like to see this payment delayed back even
beyond March the 30th (not to speak about February the 28th), in order
to give them time to handle this issue.

In general, I would like to say that our government should be more
concerned with easing payment for our citizens. It is not reasonable
for us to expect them to pay *and* to go through a very complicated
process as well. We all understand that this is the first time taxation
is implemented; but then perhaps we should give us all more time to
complete this difficult transition. Otherwise, many citizens will
simply not be able to pay, and Nova Roma will suffer.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, Paypal, etc.
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	12 Feb 2002 20:52:44 -0200

Em Ter, 2002-02-12 �s 16:10, g_popillius_laenas escreveu:
> Salvete Appia Claudia, Gai Noviodunue et Omnes,
>
> As one of the Consular Quaestores responsible for the collection and
> recording of taxes, please allow me to try and address some of the
> concerns, which have been raised. I apologize for the length of this
> post.
>
> Timing � It is true that taxes, and the February due date, were
> discussed far back into 2001. In fact, the Senate Consulta of July
> 18, 2754 (2001) set the end of February due date. However, some
> newer cives, or some that perhaps do not follow the main list
> closely, may well have been surprised by the apparent abruptness of
> the payment announcement.
>
> My apologies for this. Many matters of payment method, tracking,
> bonding of those who might handle funds, transfer of information
> regarding Nova Roma's Paypal and Bank account information, etc. had
> to be resolved before we felt we could make the announcement. After
> all this is the first time for us all. Consul Lucius Cornelius Sulla
> Felix is petitioning the Senate to extend the deadline to the end of
> March. We believe that will be sufficient for most cives. If any
> cive has a particular problem, please e-mail me at
> payments@noveroma.org and I will present your problem to the
> Consuls. I am sure anyone who truly wishes to pay the tax and fully
> participate will not be denied a dispensation for any reasonable set
> of circumstances. It is not anyone's intention to punish cives or to
> turn down tax dollars. :-)
>
> Payment Method � Paypal is the preferred method. The Consuls and
> Consular Quaestores believe that it is secure, convenient, quick,
> handles international currency conversions automatically, and can be
> tracked using tools on their site to ensure that no payment is lost.
>
> Paypal can be used with a credit card or a bank account. So for
> cives like Appia Claudia, Paypal and a checking account is an
> option. Alternatively, checks drawn on US banks or money orders can
> be sent to the address at the tax link on the Nova Roma website (not
> to the PO Box in Maine please). For non-US cives who cannot use
> Paypal, the only reasonable method we have been able to devise is a
> US dollar denominated money order. If anyone has another idea,
> please e-mail me at the above address.
>
> We have already received Paypal payments from Germaina, Thule,
> Gallia, Brasilia, Britannica, and Ireland without problem. Indeed,
> some cives have been notified by Paypal that they will have to wait
> for their monthly credit card statement to have their Paypal account
> confirmed. Consul Sulla's extension should accommodate those cives.
>

I received such a notification, but it seems that the fact that I paid
was immediately notified to the quaestors since I allready appear as
assidui in the Album. i.e. if the quaestors consider the paypal
notification as actual payment (even if probably the money will only
be transferred in a onth or so) payment can be made right now.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Publicani � The July 2754 Senate Consultum provides that the Senate
> shall assign Publicani for collection of taxes "where it (i.e. the
> Senate) deems appropriate." Although I am not privy to the
> deliberations of the Senate, I am told that they do not feel
> Publicani are appropriate for this year. There are issues of timing
> and bonding that raised obstacles. If anyone has an idea as to how
> Publicani would help the process, please e-mail me.
>
> Paypal Security � Paypal has been used for several years on the Nova
> Roma website without any problems. I have used Paypal for several
> personal purchases without problem. I am soliciting some information
> from more experienced cives on Paypal's performance and I will post
> it when available. As to the "Paypal warning" link that was posted,
> I read the site and really can't comment. I cannot substantiate any
> of the site's allegations which run contrary to the experience of our
> cives who have had input into the selection of Paypal. Personally,
> the site looks to me like someone has a particular "axe to grind"
> with Paypal and too much time on their hands.
>
> Paypal is not a bank and our funds on deposit there are not insured
> by any government agency. However, funds are routinely transferred
> from Paypal to Nova Roma's bank account, which is insured by the
> Federal government of the United States up to $100,000. We are in no
> current danger of exceeding this limit. :-)
>
> Record Keeping - Curator Araneum Marcus Octavius Germanicus has
> created a web-based tool, which allows the Consular Quaestores to
> enter payments. It not only creates a record of the payment, but e-
> mails a receipt to the cive, and supplies the information to the
> Censores necessary to apply the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti
> Censi. In addition, I am maintaining a spreadsheet of all payments
> including the Province so the appropriate amounts can be returned to
> the Provinces, as well as a complete set of accounting records
> (general ledger, etc.) Every bit of tax collected will be properly
> accounted for.
>
> Let me say this. I know taxes are a controversial issue. In my
> opinion, and that of cives expressed through the comitia, we are at
> the point where taxes are necessary for Nova Roma to take the next
> steps. Your magistrates and the Senate have worked hard to set up a
> system that is fair and workable. It is my fervent belief that any
> citizen who truly wishes to pay the tax can find a way to do so.
> (For example, some have had gens mates pay for them and then
> exchanged cash locally). Those who choose not to pay may still
> participate in Nova Roma.
>
> Send any questions or ideas, etc. to payments@novaroma.org.
>
> My thanks to my colleague, Titus Octavius Pius and to the Consuls for
> all of their help and efforts.
>
> Valete and with all respect,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas
> Consular Quaestor
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Annual Tax Now Due
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	12 Feb 2002 21:04:51 -0200

Salve,

Em Ter, 2002-02-12 �s 14:20, marcia_columbia_rex escreveu:
> Avete Omnes!
>
> I have read this post and some of the resulting disputes on the
> matter. May I offer my opinion on it?
>
> I find the annual taxes to be well within Nova Roma's pervue. To
> assess them to all cives, regardless of station or location is only
> fair. I do balk at the idea of paying online but that is my personal
> choice. I have since paid by check these dues and have requested that
> all members of Gens Columbia do likewise in paying their annual tax.
> Let's face it, $12.00 U.S. is not that much! It certainly won't break
> the bank for anyone except the very poor.

It depends where you live. I think this poll tax is unfair and should be
related to the mean per capita income of the various provinciae.
For example for me this represent 32 breakfasts or 64 coffees taken in a
padaria (baker/coffee shop). How many breakfasts is it for a US citizen?

> To quibble about this
> amount is a dull point to bring up. When I was a Civil War reenactor
> the annual dues were twice to three times as high. For me to pay this
> amount is peanuts, comparatively speaking.

As you say, for you. It is twice the annual fee for my Orienteering
club+Federal Sport License.

> I would ask, though, once all the dues are collected for an itemized
> accounting to be posted, for all cives to view, that will show where
> these funds so collected have gone and how they were used.
> If Nova Roma would do that I, as a cive and Materfamilias of my gens,
> will always be more than happy to pay my annual obligation.
>

I paid and will pay, but really would prefer something more revenue
(mean) oriented, since a poll tax is least fair tax.

Manius Villius Limitanus