| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
12 Feb 2002 21:46:57 -0200 |
|
Em Ter, 2002-02-12 às 18:03, MarcusAudens@webtv.net escreveu:
> Citizens Of Nova Roma;
>
> Learning Latin is of course an honorable goal, and one to which evey
> student of Roman History must give some consideration. However, I am
> not so ambitious as to blindly demand such a course to such a widely
> varied group of citizens as yourselves who have many more pressing
> interests, engagements, responsibilities, and commitments than the
> learning of a new language. Such an effort to communicate comfortably
> will require, even under excellent instruction from 6 months to a
> year--longer if you must teach yourself--for me a daunting undertaking
> particularly in light of my present commitments for the coming year. I
> would suppose that many of you have simlar arrangements, as both active
> citizens in the macroworld as well as in this micronation.
>
I agree with you, but if we remove the goal, nobody will do any effort
in that direction.
> In regard to being named "Americans," that title was first placed here
> by Europeans after the voyage of discovery by Amerigo Vespucci. It is a
> nickname generally used by Europeans to identify those of the western
> culture. It refers in it's broadest sense to the Western Hemisphere and
> the two "American" continents. Generally the term is reserved for North
> Americans because of thier similarity in the English language, but I
> have heard the term applied to visitors from Panama, Columbia, Brazil,
> as well as Canada and the U.S
Yes we are all americans from Alaska to to Ushuaia. At some point in
history (first quarter of the 19th century), the recently freed american
colonies of spanish language examined the possibility to join the USA as
states, US insistance on English as sole official language lead to the
creation of the hispanic american nations. Insistance on a sole official
language creates automatically separationism among the people which
don't share this language.
> English, while being the dominant
> language in Canada, England, Sctland, Ireland, Australia, and the U.S.
> is also spoken in virtually every country in the world as a business,
> second or even third language. The English Language is not in an of
> itself a threat to any specific culture, but in this period of history
> is simply a way of communcation by which more people can carry out thier
> desires, just as French was, and just as Latin was, and just as
> Esperanto was designed to do in thier historical periods. It (English)
> does not require an agreement with U.S. political policies, Canadian
> culture, Irish folklore, English or Scottish cuisine, or the ideas of
> Australian business practices. It is merely the language of
> communication throughout the world in our historical period. Nothing
> more.
It is considered as a cultural threat in many nations, France for
example.
>
> I don't believe that anyone needs to be reminded that the citizens of
> Nova Roma have not joined the U.S. Such comments, I view as merely
> inflammatory and not seriously involved in addressing the problem. The
> problem here is communication pure and simple, and is in the larger
> sense one of the major problems of the world today. Each person in Nova
> Roma is proud of his / her native country, as I am proud of mine, but
> this is not about macronations this is about Nova Roma, a micronation
> who is experiencing some problems in communication with all of her
> members and potential members as well. Let us not degenerate into
> arguments about political rivalries as such, is indeed,
> counterproductive.
Agreed the problem is communication and banning other languages means
you will never get the chance of hearing their opinions. We already are
a Babel Tower, this law means the splitting of the people trying to
build it. Well not exactly some will take the building on the others are
left outside because they don't share the language.
>
> Latin has been declared as the official language of Nova Roma.
And denied this status in another part the law where it states that the
reference language when the translations differ will be the english
version not the latin one. What is left from this official status?
> English
> has been declared the business language of Nova Roma, as it has in most
> countries of the world. Translators will be established in the proposed
> Law, and NR Citizens who have no English will be encouraged to use those
> translators. Our Main List is very correctly set up to encourage and
> recieve translations from Latin and other languages for the enjoyment of
> all citizens, and has under our excellent Moderator announced such on
> many occasions and has been generously supported by a Nova Roma Citizen
> supported restoration to that position, and to that purpose.
>
English is the businnes language in most countries of the world: yes.
English is the language of communication in NR: yes.
But english has not being declared the language of business anywhere and
english should not be declared the sole official language on NR's forum
either.
The device of our current moderator has NEVER been activated: It is
intimitading for non-english fluent peoples.
The idea is excellent but it is useless.
The idea of the translator decemviri is excellent, but they should be
used also to translate the web-site into other languages like it is done
on other international sites (www.debian.org or the SVR site for
example)
> I really canot believe that a Numidian Slave Trader, Germanic Tribesman,
> Syrian Merchant, or a Northern Gaul, traveling to Rome in 73 A.D. would
> demand that Romans abandon their busines language of that day (Latin) to
> accomodate a single individual.
Of course not, nobody asks for anybody to stop speaking english. Your
Syrian Merchant would not have been asked to speak latin on the forum,
he could freely speak greek or aramean. Of course his public would have
been larger if speaking latin, but even in greek he could be able to
touch some customers and make his day. Same thing here: you want to be
heard by the majority: speak english. You are not able to speak english:
some will understand you and if it's interresting will ranslate for the
others.
> Based on the individual's importance,
> translators would be offered, perhaps scribes provided, and perhaps even
> multi-lingual slaves assigned to the visitor's house-hold during the
> individual's stay.
This is little probable, most probably for the merchants/traders for
example, the buyers would use a slave that understands the language.
> But the business of the day throughout Rome would
> continue to be carried out on a daily basis in Latin. Today the
> international language of business is English, and much the same
> scenario is being carried out and proposed in Nova Roma as in the above
> example.
>
Not quite: this law would forbid to the merchant to conduct any
bussiness without the assistance of an official translator: that is the
actual situation in Communist China and Vietnam, not the situation in a
free country.
> I do not understand how a fragmented Main List, allowing the various
> languages without translations attached would bring Nova Roma closer
> together.
Because the non-english speakers would not be excluded and the
english-only speaking citizens would get a chance of understanding some
of their opinions. Perhaps it would even give both the will to learn the
others language at least on an understand only basis (which is much
easier as to learn a language in order to express yourself in that
language. Latin is an excellent example for this since it is quite easy
to understand a latin text and awfully difficult to write one)
> Spanish, German, Portuguese, French, Greek, Dutch, Norwegian,
> Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Italian, not to mention the many other
> languages and even more dialects of the Middle East, Africa, and South
> America. I am not aware currently that we have any orientals within
> Nova Roma, but Certainly Chinese, Japanes, Korean, Vietnamese and other
> Far East as well as the Island languages of the Pacific Basin must be
> considered (If I have left anyone out, my apologies). Currently we are
> dealing with this problem by translation into English, while our
> citizenship learns Latin at the pace that is commensurate with their
> various and widely different life patterns.
>
> To write Britain off because of a few people who chose not to honor
> their commitments, I find faintly disturbing, and probably even more so
> to those Britons who remain among us, and who are most welcome.
>
I apoligize to them, you can count them in if you want, it still is some
95% of northern north americans (USA + Canada) and maximum 5% of the
other english speaking countries.
> So, in conclusion there are several ways for people who have no English
> to communicate on the Main List. True, it is more time-consuming than
> the use of English, but it is doable,particularly if your native
> language is used only by a small number of those whom you wish to share
> ideas with. The Proposed law will make it even easier. Certainly, a
> law which makes it easier for all regardless of their language and
> culture to share thier ideas, thoughts, wishes, and comments cannot be
> either limiting or discrimatory.
Well it is because, they will have to contact the decemviri before
publishing their thoughts while the english speaking people can publish
directly: This law creates a legal difference between citizens based on
their origins, I would say that it even hurds the human rights which
forbids this.
+ This law does not provide anything in order to provide translations
form english to other languages: again discrimatory.
> Certainly any effort to improve the
> situation of those citizens and potential citizens of Nova Roma can
> hardly be called counterproductive.
>
It does not improve their legal situation. As long as it was only the
decision of a curatrix sermonis, the situation could change every year,
if it becomes a law it is much more difficult to change.
Respectfully
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Candidate for Plebian Aedile |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:51:29 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Pompeia.
--- pompeia_cornelia <trog99@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Salvete Honoured Tribunes:
>
> Is my brain on vacation, or did Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
> not declare for Plebian Aedile? The last list I saw was missing
> Procopious as Tribune Candidate, but now, I don't believe Curio was
> on there either.
>
> If I am wrong, I apologize...just a flash thought.
>
> Pompeia Cornelia
Marcus Scribonius did present himself for the tribunate, after asking
an age exemption from the Senate (he is not 25 years old). The Senate
did not grant him this age exemption, so I could not accept Marcus
Scribonius candidacy for the Tribunate.
Later on, Marcus Scribonius presented his candidacy for Plebeian
Aedility. I was more than happy to include his name in the ballot.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Annual Tax Now Due |
| From: |
"marcia_columbia_rex" <oldsabre@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:08:23 -0000 |
|
Ave, Manius Villius!
--- In novaroma@y..., Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Em Ter, 2002-02-12 às 14:20, marcia_columbia_rex escreveu:
> > Avete Omnes!
> >
> > I have read this post and some of the resulting disputes on the
> > matter. May I offer my opinion on it?
> >
> > I find the annual taxes to be well within Nova Roma's pervue. To
> > assess them to all cives, regardless of station or location is
only
> > fair. I do balk at the idea of paying online but that is my
personal
> > choice. I have since paid by check these dues and have requested
that
> > all members of Gens Columbia do likewise in paying their annual
tax.
> > Let's face it, $12.00 U.S. is not that much! It certainly won't
break
> > the bank for anyone except the very poor.
>
> It depends where you live. I think this poll tax is unfair and
should be
> related to the mean per capita income of the various provinciae.
> For example for me this represent 32 breakfasts or 64 coffees taken
in a
> padaria (baker/coffee shop). How many breakfasts is it for a US
citizen?
It works out to about four breakfasts or about 10 coffees for
Americans as myself. I am unaware of how this translates to
provinciae overseas. In that light, I should say that I was speaking
for most American citizens like myself. You did enlighten me on your
situation.
> > To quibble about this
> > amount is a dull point to bring up. When I was a Civil War
reenactor
> > the annual dues were twice to three times as high. For me to pay
this
> > amount is peanuts, comparatively speaking.
>
> As you say, for you. It is twice the annual fee for my Orienteering
> club+Federal Sport License.
I hear you there, Manius. I usually found that the monies, once
collected, went toward things like newsletters and event registration
fees for reenactments. Reenactors also had to fork all costs for
their own uniforms and equipment. Seemed a little onerous, given the
expenses, but it saved some headaches.
> > I would ask, though, once all the dues are collected for an
itemized
> > accounting to be posted, for all cives to view, that will show
where
> > these funds so collected have gone and how they were used.
> > If Nova Roma would do that I, as a cive and Materfamilias of my
gens,
> > will always be more than happy to pay my annual obligation.
> >
>
> I paid and will pay, but really would prefer something more revenue
> (mean) oriented, since a poll tax is least fair tax.
I think, though it is a poll tax, that an accounting of where the
said paid dues go would put many of us at ease. Perhaps dues could be
adjusted so that those overseas would be more able to afford them.
> Manius Villius Limitanus
Good to hear from your side of this matter!
Marcia Columbia Rex
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Annual Tax Now Due |
| From: |
"marcia_columbia_rex" <oldsabre@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:15:19 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@y..., labienus@t... wrote:
> Salvete Marcia Columbia omnesque
>
> > I would ask, though, once all the dues are collected for an
itemized
> > accounting to be posted, for all cives to view, that will show
where
> > these funds so collected have gone and how they were used.
>
> This already exists. Every year, the Senate votes upon a budget.
That budget
> is then posted in the Aerarium Saturni section of the main site for
all comers
> to view. The URL is
http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html .
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
Many thanks! I will most certainly check this link!
M.C.R.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Taxes, Paypal, etc. |
| From: |
"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:11:07 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@y..., Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:
>> I received such a notification, but it seems that the fact that I
paid was immediately notified to the quaestors since I allready
appear as assidui in the Album. i.e. if the quaestors consider the
paypal notification as actual payment (even if probably the money
will only be transferred in a onth or so) payment can be made right
now.
Manius Villius Limitanus<<
Salvete Mani Villi et Omnes,
If you use a credit card that is "confirmed" with Paypal, Nova Roma
gets credit for the payment and the money is available for transfer
immediately. Manius Villius' payment is already available for
withdrawaL according to Paypal. If we withdraw it, and for some
reason the funds are ultimately unavailable, that's between Manius
Villius, his credit card comapny, and Paypal. Some other cives have
used Paypal and paid with a check. In that case, Paypal will not
confirm the payment until the check clears on the other end. The
Quaestores, in these cases, do not "consider" this as an actual
payment. Once Paypal confirms the clearing of the check, the civie
will get his receipt.
It's the first go round. We will make mistakes - my colloegue,
Titus Octavius Pius, coreected my mistake in the situation described
above. But, heck we are human, and if we all act in good faith, it
will work out.
Valete and with all respect,
Gaius Popillius Laneas
Consular Quaestor
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Candidate for Plebian Aedile |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:15:47 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@y..., Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, Pompeia.
>
> --- pompeia_cornelia <trog99@h...> wrote:
> > Salvete Honoured Tribunes:
> >
> > Is my brain on vacation, or did Marcus Scribonius Curio
Britannicus
> > not declare for Plebian Aedile? The last list I saw was missing
> > Procopious as Tribune Candidate, but now, I don't believe Curio
was
> > on there either.
> >
> > If I am wrong, I apologize...just a flash thought.
> >
> > Pompeia Cornelia
>
> Marcus Scribonius did present himself for the tribunate, after
asking
> an age exemption from the Senate (he is not 25 years old). The
Senate
> did not grant him this age exemption, so I could not accept Marcus
> Scribonius candidacy for the Tribunate.
Pompeia: I am aware of this, as I am in the Senate.
>
> Later on, Marcus Scribonius presented his candidacy for Plebeian
> Aedility. I was more than happy to include his name in the ballot.
Pompeia: I am most pleased he is on the ballot, as is I am sure,
Curio himself. I just checked the most recent list the Tribunes had
published and it was yesterday, and according to this post there was
no candidate for Plebian Aedile, and you were going to postpone the
election of this office.
Bene vale,
Pompeia
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Tribunus Plebis
> Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> Triumvir Academiae Thules
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
> Lictor Curiatus.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Candidate for Plebian Aedile |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:43:43 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Pompeia.
--- pompeia_cornelia <trog99@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --- In novaroma@y..., Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites; et salve, Pompeia.
> >
> > --- pompeia_cornelia <trog99@h...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Honoured Tribunes:
> > >
> > > Is my brain on vacation, or did Marcus Scribonius Curio
> Britannicus
> > > not declare for Plebian Aedile? The last list I saw was missing
> > > Procopious as Tribune Candidate, but now, I don't believe Curio
> was
> > > on there either.
> > >
> > > If I am wrong, I apologize...just a flash thought.
> > >
> > > Pompeia Cornelia
> >
> > Marcus Scribonius did present himself for the tribunate, after
> asking
> > an age exemption from the Senate (he is not 25 years old). The
> Senate
> > did not grant him this age exemption, so I could not accept Marcus
> > Scribonius candidacy for the Tribunate.
>
> Pompeia: I am aware of this, as I am in the Senate.
> >
> > Later on, Marcus Scribonius presented his candidacy for Plebeian
> > Aedility. I was more than happy to include his name in the ballot.
>
> Pompeia: I am most pleased he is on the ballot, as is I am sure,
> Curio himself. I just checked the most recent list the Tribunes had
> published and it was yesterday, and according to this post there was
> no candidate for Plebian Aedile, and you were going to postpone the
> election of this office.
>
> Bene vale,
> Pompeia
This is correct. Later, when I posted a revised version of the comitial
call (I had forgotten to include one candidate), I had received (too
late) Marcus Scribonius candidacy for aedilis plebis. I had two
options: I could forget about the few hours that passed between the
time limit to present candidacies, or I could repeat the whole election
once more. I decided to be a little bit irregular, and avoid another
election :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@goldenfuture.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:29:55 -0500 |
|
Salve,
Once again I find I must correct Limitanus. He stated:
>>The device of our current moderator has NEVER been activated:>>
Simply put, you are wrong. Unsurprisingly, you have never bothered to ask
me about whether anyone has utilized our volunteer translators, so of course
you don't know the truth. Doesn't stop you from speaking mis-truths, but I
digress.
>>It is intimitading for non-english fluent peoples.>>
Those who have used it obviously didn't think so.
>>The idea is excellent <snip> >>
Thank you. :) It has received support from the vast majority who have
spoken of it and it works quite well for those who take the time to use it.
Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis
Lictor
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
13 Feb 2002 01:38:42 -0200 |
|
Em Qua, 2002-02-13 às 01:29, JusticeCMO escreveu:
> Salve,
>
> Once again I find I must correct Limitanus. He stated:
>
> >>The device of our current moderator has NEVER been activated:>>
>
> Simply put, you are wrong. Unsurprisingly, you have never bothered to ask
> me about whether anyone has utilized our volunteer translators, so of course
> you don't know the truth. Doesn't stop you from speaking mis-truths, but I
> digress.
>
This was your affirmation during the december campaign, when I publicly
ask you for that.
> >>It is intimitading for non-english fluent peoples.>>
>
> Those who have used it obviously didn't think so.
>
So how many have used it since december?
Manius Villius Limitanus
> >>The idea is excellent <snip> >>
>
> Thank you. :) It has received support from the vast majority who have
> spoken of it and it works quite well for those who take the time to use it.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonis
> Lictor
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@goldenfuture.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:50:31 -0500 |
|
Salve,
First you state:
> > >>The device of our current moderator has NEVER been activated:>>
I corrected you. Then you rapidly back pedal to:
>>So how many have used it since december?>>
Silly me. I had forgotten who I was dealing with.
I will not be aiding your "non-issue" ranting here. Sorry. Your first
statement was wrong. You have been corrected. Further rounds of your
patented (and only) theme of "I hate all Vedians" serve no purpose and
certainly aren't something I am going to engage you in.
Have a nice night!
:) Priscilla
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
13 Feb 2002 02:06:57 -0200 |
|
Em Qua, 2002-02-13 às 01:50, JusticeCMO escreveu:
> Salve,
>
> First you state:
>
> > > >>The device of our current moderator has NEVER been activated:>>
>
> I corrected you. Then you rapidly back pedal to:
>
In december you affirmed that nobody asked for the translation service
and therefore the language policy was a non-issue. Now you give a new
affirmation: it has been activated. The least you could do is saying how
much it was activated. Since all this is non-public you are the only
source of information retaining it will certainly not enlighten the
debate on the current law proposal.
Manius Villius Limitanus
> >>So how many have used it since december?>>
>
> Silly me. I had forgotten who I was dealing with.
>
> I will not be aiding your "non-issue" ranting here. Sorry. Your first
> statement was wrong. You have been corrected. Further rounds of your
> patented (and only) theme of "I hate all Vedians" serve no purpose and
> certainly aren't something I am going to engage you in.
>
I never, never said I "hate" the Vedians. I said and still am of the
opinion: the Vedians are damaging to NR. They can be very fine private
persons.
Manius Villius Limitanus
> Have a nice night!
>
> :) Priscilla
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
MarcusAudens@webtv.net |
| Date: |
Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:46:56 -0500 (EST) |
|
Citizens of Nova Roma;
In pursuing a continuing discussion regarding the subject, I have tried
to maintain an impersonal and truthful basis for my arguments. It now
appears that there has been some countering argments that are not based
in fact, which a simple question to one of our elected Magistrates would
have immediately revealed.
Since my reponsibility is, as I see it, to pursue such questions as I
may have significant comments for, and present you with (hopefully)
facts from which you can make a determination.
It is no part of my responsiblity, again as I see it, to necessarily win
an argument with any individual, or to use false information in my
efforts.
Additionally, while I am not a professional historian, nor do I have any
credentials in this area outside of being a qualified K-12 history
educator and an interested student, -- in my 45 years of pursuing
history relating to the United States, England, and to a lesser degree
Europe (I have no language skills out side of English) I have never run
across any record of any American State establishing a separate
government because the United States refused to recognize the use of a
language other than English. Such a statemet is particularly
interesting since the U.S. currently and has for some time, prints
government documents in various languages, for the use of citizens who
have not yet become proficient in English, and many clerks, and working
people here in the U.S. can hardly be understood, because they pursue
thier native language so freely that they never properly learn the use
of English in order to enable their nieghbors and friends to understand
them clearly. Before I give any crecedence to such a surprising
accusation, I would need a reference (referring to the incident), date,
country (s) involved, and where / when such a decision has been
recorded. My reason for this need is while strange things have happened
in this country, as in other countries in the past, I find as a
historian that an attempt to take an action out of it's time period and
apply it to modern day standards is not only inaccurate, but foolish as
well. Something that any educated man or woman should realize,
particularly one who is identifed as an educator. Additionally. if such
an action were taken by the United States, the decision will be recorded
somewhere in our national archives which are open to all U.S. Citizens
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
MarcusAudens@webtv.net |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:02:07 -0500 (EST) |
|
Citizens of Nova Roma;
In response to some countering comments regarding the Language Law, it
is apparently necessary to make a further explanation for clarity.
In my previous message I indicated that there was no problem in learning
another language but that it could take a long time. Apparently this
was takn by some as an attempt to remove the goal of learning another
language such as Latin. Such was not my message at all. The goal is
still there, however, in the meantime until the goal is established,
business must go on.
It has been stated that Nova Roma is a existing Tower of Babel, but I
must respectfully disagree. It is not a Tower Of Babel simply because
of a well modulated and moderated Main List on which thousands of
messages are recieved and understood each year by a majority of our
citizens.
I am told that if a person wants to be understood by the majority the
sender should send the message in English. Hmmmmmmmmm!!!! I thought
that was what we have been saying for some time. I am further
instructed that if a person wants to be understood in an NR Minority
language he should be allowed to do so. I thought that this was
allowed. I have read several messages with appropriate translations on
the Main List. If someone wants to send a message to the Main List in
an NR minority language without a translation the person should be
allowed to do so. Why would anyone wish to send a message to the Main
List in Dutch (for instance) without translation if only 5 other people
can read Dutch? That, in my humble estimation, would be a Tower of
Babble!!!!! Also it doesn't make much sense to me. However, I have
been told that am not at al bright!! Much better to create a separate
list (there are several in Nova Roma I am told), in my view, where the
Dutch could converse in thier native language, and where hopefully, some
translations could be provided to the main list. As a Senator, I am
interested in my Dutch constituents (other language speakers as well),
but if I can't read Dutch, how can I respond to them??
I have been asked why no attempt has been made to translate goverment
documentation into other languages. My response is that was one of the
first ideas that was tried, and for a while it worked, but the
volunteers one by one dropped out, and no-one has asked to take their
place. For those who have not tried this effort, it is darned
difficult, and as a steady diet it is related to the difficulty of the
Censor's task, but even more demanding.
I have been informed that English is a cultural threat in many
countries. France was given as an example. I have spent some small
amount of time in France, visiting the local stores, historical spots,
restaurants, and speaking with the people. I have been fortunate I
guess, but my experience is that if you treat the French like equals in
all things, they do not consider you a threat. My experience has been
the same in Italy, Ireland, Scotland, England, Portugal, Netherlands,
Greece, Turkey, Columbia, Panama, Mexico, Canada, Japan, China,
Phillapines, Pacific Islands, North Africa, etc. However, in all these
places treatment of the locals by Ugly Americans (Germans, English,
etc.) can get you badly hurt. Not a smart thing to do!!!!! However, I
admit that my experience in this area is not as extensive as in some
cases. I wonder if some people from the above countries would care to
comment on the above in regard to language and individual treatment of
natives of any given country.
Further, I am told of Nova Roma "banning" of languages other than
English and that I have never seen. If I had seen such I would have
done everything in my power to stop it. If those new citizens doubt my
words simply ask others who have been here for some time how reluctant I
am to take on "anyone" who, in my view, abuses his or her authority. We
ban no language in Nova Roma. None.
Further I have been told that some citizens will undertake to build a
micronation and some will not. That I agree with, and I believe that
anyone who belongs to any organization will see that immediately. There
is a saying in most organizations that 10% of the people do 90% of the
work. That is a given. However, the above formula does not depend upon
a common language. In an organization where everyone speaks the same
language the above equation is true. However, in my experience, if in
any organization one person of the industrious 10% speaks a different
language that person will literally move heaven and earth to be
understood, others wll make little or no effort "having better thngs to
do."
Latin is the official language of Nova Roma. That means to me that
important documents will be translated into Latin, when the translaters
are available. It means that as the population of Nova Roma grows more
comfortable with Latin, more documents, laws, etc. will be drafted in
Latin. It means that ultimately Latin will be the official and the
business language of Nova Roma. But at our present rate of growth that
realization is a long term one, and in the mean time, a more
understandable language for the majority of the citizens must be
recognized. When that language by count becomes Spanish, French,
Esperanto or German, then one of those languages will be considered as
the business language, and at that time English speakers will have to be
translated into the new business language.
In conclusion, I understand the problems brought forward by these
countering arguments, that I bring to you, but my friends, I know of no
better way. Further, I have often asked any citizen to message me if
they have problems that they consider insurmountable, for I am willing
to try my best rather than see some one resign. As a result, I have
recieved questons about some things and we were usually able to work
something out, but I have never had a complaint about the current topic
under discussion, except from two people who claimed to speak for
others. I guess, that I would be driven to try harder and devote more
of my time to this problem were I to hear from some others, simply
because we have seen in previous days how easy it is to make political
advantage out of a presumed misfortune that everyone else undertood,
except the individual who exploits the misfortune, with questionable
facts and repetitive complaints, and no attempt to solve the problem
except through thier own repeated solutions even though there actually
may not be a problem at all!!!!!
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Tax based on Gross National Product |
| From: |
MarcusAudens@webtv.net |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:12:09 -0500 (EST) |
|
Such a proposal was made by myself very early in the discussion of a Tax
Proprosal. This proposal was put to the Main List, and for my trouble I
was blasted by European Citizens whe said that they were fully able to
pay thier full share and did not need an "American" tp provide a lower
tax rate. My proposal atthe time was based ondiscussions wth my good
friend who lives in the Province of Pannonia, and whose annual salary is
based upon his countries GNP.
Now Master Limitus brings it up again. Sorry, sir, that idea has been
blown away by those who didn't need a "handout." Of course, no one
bothered to ask my friend in Pannonia before replying to my suggestion
in such a polite way.
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Language law |
| From: |
Petrus Silvius Naso <lhoon@lhoon.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:07:57 +0100 |
|
Petrus Silvius Naso omnibus civibus S.P.D.
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> scripsit:
>
>Em Ter, 2002-02-12 às 18:03, MarcusAudens@webtv.net escreveu:
>> Citizens Of Nova Roma;
>>
>> Learning Latin is of course an honorable goal, and one to which evey
> > student of Roman History must give some consideration. However, I am
>> not so ambitious as to blindly demand such a course to such a widely
>> varied group of citizens as yourselves who have many more pressing
>> interests, engagements, responsibilities, and commitments than the
>> learning of a new language. Such an effort to communicate comfortably
>> will require, even under excellent instruction from 6 months to a
>> year--longer if you must teach yourself--for me a daunting undertaking
>> particularly in light of my present commitments for the coming year. I
>> would suppose that many of you have simlar arrangements, as both active
>> citizens in the macroworld as well as in this micronation.
> >
>
>I agree with you, but if we remove the goal, nobody will do any effort
>in that direction.
I do agree with the support of Latin as "official" language rather
than English, at least for things like official legal texts. It may
be difficult for some to immediately switch to Latin for all
communications, but it must remain the ultimate goal. Citizens can
continue of course to use their vernacular languages, and since
English is the most widespread, it will be used the most, and needs
no legislation to enforce its position.
There are already several initiatives to revive Latin as a means of
communication, such as the weekly news digest by the Finnish radio
(available at http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/ (btw an excellent way to
brush up your knowledge), there is also a very active mailing list in
Latin (Grex Latine at http://www.topica.com - it was through a
message on this list I actually got in touch with Nova Roma!)
Salve,
Petrus Silvius Naso
Belga Mechliniensis
--
*****************************************************
Van den Bossche Peter
CITELEC c/o VUB-tw-ETEC, Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels
Voice: 32 2 629 38 07; Fax: 32 2 700 49 61 Mobile 32 475 60 63 74
Email: mailto:pvdbos@vub.ac.be
mailto:citelec@vub.ac.be
URL: http://www.citelec.org
*****************L***H***O***O***N*******************
ELECTRICITY is undoubtedly the instrumentality
and measure of all life, action and enjoyment.
--- O. S. Fowler
*****************************************************
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] to quaestors |
| From: |
"gaiuscoriolanus" <coriolanus@centrum.sk> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:19:47 -0000 |
|
Paypal service is not available in eastern Europe, does that mean
that I haven't chance to pay?
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
Pannonia
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Effects of the Language Lex |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:32:50 -0800 (PST) |
|
Ave Quirites,
There seems to be some misconceptions regarding the
Language Lex.
First of All the mainlist is NOT nentioned anywhere in
the lex. Early drafts of a Language Lex did include
allowing citizens to post in a language that had a
apointed interptator, but since those drafts were made
the Sentate passed a Consulta placing ML Policy in the
Hands it's modarator, and a Lex regarding Languages on
this list was rejected on the argument that this
should be up to the modarator. The Senate and People
have made their will known on this matter so I advised
the Junior Consul that we shouldn't even mention the
mainlist in this lex. I Certainly hope that the
modarator of this list and the citizens of Nova Roma
will make use of the resources that the Interpators
will provide, but the Lex does not address this issue.
Second, the Lex does NOT change the status of the
English Language. It is allready the offical business
language of Nova Roma as per the Consulta the Senate
passed in November. Right now the English text of a
Lex is not only the version that has precedance in a
dispute, it is the only offical version. It's an
admirable idea to make the Latin Version the version
that has precedance, but since the majority of our
citizens speak little or no Latin at this time it's
simply not praticle. Hopefully at a future date this
will change, but for the present it is advisable to
use the language that is most widely spoken in Nova
Roma as our business language and give documents in
the business language a precedance in the event of a
dispute about the meaning of two translations. The
Term Business Language is limited to the day to day
language of Nova Roma's Central Government. It has NO
effect on the languages used in Provincial Business or
private business transactions.
Third the Lex Strengthens the the postion of the the
Latin Language in Nova Roma. This section
II. Latin is hereby adopted as the official ceremonial
language of Nova Roma. As such, it shall be used in
rites conducted by the curule magistrates and
appointed priests of Nova Roma on behalf of the entire
nation, as well as other circumstances where it may be
deemed appropriate.
Is already in effect as per the Consulta the Senate
passed in November. The Lex goes beyond this in
establishing the postion of a Latin Interpator to aid
the magistrates in complying with the Consulta and the
Lex.
Latin is futher strengthened by this section
1. The Decuriae Interpretes shall consist of ten
Interpretes who shall be responsible for making
official translations of all proposed Leges and
Plebiscita,
and all Edicta and official announcements made by the
magistrates of Nova Roma, along with all Senatus
Consulta. The Interpretes shall also be
responsible for for providing official translations of
all Leges, Plebiscita, Senatus Consulta, Priestly
Decreta, and Magisterial Edicta in force at the time
this lex is passed.
This section along with the section establishing a
Latin Translator requires that an offical latin text
of all future offical documents and all offical
documents in force at the time of the passage of the
lex be translated into Latin. Currently there are NO
offical Latin texts of our offical documents. If this
Lex is passed Latin Texts of all of Nova Roma's
Documents will be required.
Fourth, This Lex Strengthens the postion of Languages
other than Latin and English in Nova Roma. Right Now
there is NO offical provision made for any other
languages. This Lex Requires that the 5 Languages,
other than Latin and English, most widely spoken in
Nova Roma also have ofical translators who will
provide Translations in those Languages. Beyond these
5 languages it also provides for up to an aditional 4
Translators at the option of the Senate. This means
that offical Nova Roman Documents will be avaible in 5
to 9 modern languanges other than English, rather than
the present situation of only having an English
version.
This Lex may not go as far as some would like in
internationalizing Nova Roma, and as a mater of fact
it dosen't go as far as I would like it to, but it is
a major improvement over the current situation.
Extending the scope of the lex will decrease the
chances of it being voted into law at the present
time, again leaving us with the current situation of
only recognizing English and Latin, and only using
Latin in an ad hoc manner.
I Encourage all citizens to vote for this lex, not
because it's a perfect answer to the Language issues
in Nova Roma (Which dosen't exist) but because it's a
major improvement over the current situation.
Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis
Canidate for Tribune of the Plebs
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20NOVA=20ROMA=20=2D=20Annual=20memberships=20now=20d?= |
| From: |
tiberius.ann@bluemail.ch |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:23:48 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes,
-- Original-Nachricht --
>Salvete
>
>I have one minor point to make. Please do not construe my making it to
imply
>
>any opinion on the rest of the conversation taking place.
>
>> Sulla: The Senatus Consulta stated the Senate "Shall" Not the Senate
>WILL
>> or in any way compel the Senate. The discretion lies with the Senate
if
>they
>> are going to appoint 0 or 1000 publicani. Based on IV. of the Senatus
>> Consultum
>
>In legal documents, the word "shall" defines a specific obligation. If
a
>legal
>document says that a party shall do something, then that party is legally
>bound
>to do that thing. The word "will" is dispreferred legally, as it also
refers
>
>to a testamentary document. Usually, "shall" and "will" are taken as
>synonymous, and opposed to "may" and "can", as the latter do not define
an
>
>obligation.
>
>Valete
>T Labienus Fortunatus
Salve T. Labienus Fortunatus,
I am very grateful to you, for making this clear. I am translating the leges
into German since almost 2 years now and I have always been wondering about
this difference between 'shall' and 'will'. In my English studies at the
university, everybody wants you to make the difference and therefore I was
never quite sure.
It now seems, that parts of the senatus consultum have not been implemented
and therefore the magistrates of NR should consider a delay in the deadline
of the taxpayment, until these problems are sorted out.
My personal opinion is, that you cannot judge somebody, if you yourself
have similar faults. That means, that you cannot punish somebody for not
following a law, when you yourself have not followed the law strictly.
I hope that my opinion does not offend anybody. Respectfully,
Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Lictor Novae Romae
Civis Novae Romae
Scriba legata Germaniae superioris
________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!
|
| Subject: |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20Annual=20Tax=20Now=20Due?= |
| From: |
tiberius.ann@bluemail.ch |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:42:09 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes,
Here a short report on the coffe prices in Switzerland.
>> It depends where you live. I think this poll tax is unfair and
>should be
>> related to the mean per capita income of the various provinciae.
>> For example for me this represent 32 breakfasts or 64 coffees taken
>in a
>> padaria (baker/coffee shop). How many breakfasts is it for a US
>citizen?
>
>It works out to about four breakfasts or about 10 coffees for
>Americans as myself. I am unaware of how this translates to
>provinciae overseas. In that light, I should say that I was speaking
>for most American citizens like myself. You did enlighten me on your
>situation.
A US $12.00 payment would be arround 20.00 Swiss francs. With a coffee at
around 4.20 or 4.50, sometimes up to 5.00 Swiss francs. That makes maybe
one breakfast or 4-6 coffees in Switzerland. However, in Switzerland it
is not usual to go out for breakfast or to drink a coffee in a shop. For
the same 20 Francs, you could easily eat a lunch (without beaverages).
Respectfully, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Lictor curiatus
Civis Germaniae Superioris
________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Taxes=20in=20comparisson=20from=20country=20to=20country?= |
| From: |
tiberius.ann@bluemail.ch |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:53:45 +0100 |
|
Again, salvete quirites,
I have recently written what 12 Dollars would be able to buy in Switzerland
(amount of coffee or food).
However, I forgot, that it is not only the amount you get for these 12 Dollars,
or 20 Francs, but that the time you have to work for it also plays a great
role.
Taking a person working as a salesman in a shop, which could be easily compared
to other countries, this person would have to work more than an hour for
this tax!!!
Yes, you have read correctly. In Switzerland one coffee can cost up to 5.00
Swiss Francs, but one hour work as a salesman gets you only between 15.00
and 18.00 Swiss Francs.
In comparison to other countries:
- A teacher in Switzerland earns about 60 Swiss Francs for 1 lesson he has
to teach, including preparatory worktime.
- In Hungary, the same teacher would have to work more than 2 weeks full
time to earn the equivalent of this amount.
That does not mean that he can buy the same things. With the same amount
of 60 Swiss Francs, you can buy lots more in Hungary. The important thing
is to see the relations between the work needed to earn this tax, and the
amount of food you can get for the same money.
Respectfully, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Lictor curiatus
Civis Germaniae superioris
________________________________________
E-Mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by Bluewin!
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] About languages in NovaRoma |
| From: |
"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:45:22 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes,
This is rather a long post but I hope you will bear with me. To make
things easier, I broke up my text into 2 main chapters and several
subsections inside the first chapter, because of its length. Also, a
short introductory text is provided after the subsection titles.
Thanks to Lucius Sicinius Drusus for making it clear that the lex about
which we are going to vote is not affecting the main list. Please
understand that my post is not targetted against the law which is, as
Drusus says, not perfect, but better than today's solution.
I'm going to talk about the main list, because this is where the biggest
part of NovaRoman communication takes place.
MUTUAL RESPECT ON THE MAINLIST
==============================
The Mainlist is not the provincial list for the US
--------------------------------------------------
Some citizens who are living in the US (I'm naming this macronation,
because it has the majority of native English-speakers) are *taking*
*for* *granted* that non-English speaking persons are making a huge
effort to either post in English or have their post translated. They
are not ready to make an effort on their side.
The Curatrix Sermonem (question: should that not be "Curatrix Sermonis"
in correct latin?) is doing a great job, however one thing is really
missing, IMHO. The main list's goal is described as follows:
"This is the mailing list for Nova Roma, a micronation dedicated to
the principles, philosophy and faith of ancient Rome. We discuss
points of history, organizational matters, religious questions, Latin
language and literature, re-enactment and costuming, and much more."
There is also a mention that the language is English, and posts in other
languages MUST be accompanied by a translation into English. While the
latter matter is rolling quite well (I've never noticed a
foreign-language post without a translation), the former is not true,
unfortunately. Now and then, there are post like these:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/message/29185 (Trying to locate
other citizens in Dallas,Texas). This is as insulting to non US people
as if I would post an *untranslated* message saying: "Wär wohnt o no i
dr Schwyz?" (Who lives in Switzerland as well?). I know these posts are
happily not very frequent, but whenever I come across such ones I feel
hurt because I have to make a huge effort and some people don't even
make an effort to post it to an appropriate *provincial* mailing list.
It is more difficult to write in another language than your vernacular
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When all discussions in the mainlist are in English, some people
speaking English as their mother tongue tend to forget the effort
people are making in posting directly in English, without looking
every single word up in the dictionary.
The problem with this is that sometimes, something gets explained wrong,
especially if the writer has some good skills but sometimes chooses a
wrong word to express his true opinion. I've seen such situations where
English speakers have been rude and apologized after having been told by
the poster that his main language is not English. I have no example
handy, but it really happens now and then. And even though it *is* quite
rare, one single occurence of such a behavior can turn away lots of
foreign-language speakers from the main list. Apologizing is good, but
sometimes it would be better to think twice before writing.
English speakers: make an effort too!
-------------------------------------
Have you ever thought what effort you are doing when posting? You just
write as you talk, use colloquial expressions without thinking whether
it will be understood and so on. Also have you thought that sometimes
a small typo can completely confuse someone who doesn't speak English
very well?
Given the effort non-english speaking persons have to do, it would be
fair to ask English speaking persons to make an effort in using an easy
level of language, without colloquial phrases. I'm sure many people
would cry out! "what, restrict us in our right of expression? I want to
say things like they get over my lips, I don't want to downgrade my
speech to a 7-year old". But think that this is exactly what's
happening with people not very fluent in English. They have to downgrade
their speach and try to tell things with other words.
Nowadays, there are spell checkers everywhere, even in E-mail programs,
so I guess it would not be asking too much to check for spelling before
sending out your posts. Sure, it's an inconvenience, but it's nothing
compared to people making the effort of writing in another language than
theirs. Remember that a typo can be easily identified by a native
speaker, but it is sometimes very hard, even impossible, for non-native
speakers to find out the meaning.
LATIN IN NOVAROMA
=================
I agree that latin should be better promoted inside of NovaRoma.
However, I think it is totally not applicable to require it to be the
main communication language. I've studied latin for over 10 years at
school, high-school and University. And I am not able to "speak" latin.
I admire those who can but they really shouldn't ask the same from other
people.
However, it would be great if at least title names, lex names and any
official occurences of latin to be correct latin (I mentioned the
Curatrix Sermonis at the beginning of this post). Also those choosing to
use latin words in their posts should check for correctness (how many
times have I seen the singular of "cives" written as "cive" instead of
"civis"?). Wouldn't it be a good idea to create a glossary of all latin
terms often used inside NovaRoma?
Valete bene and I hope to trigger some reactions.
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] to quaestors |
| From: |
Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:40:25 +0100 |
|
gaiuscoriolanus wrote:
> Paypal service is not available in eastern Europe, does that mean
> that I haven't chance to pay?
Salve, Gai Marci Coriolane.
First, regarding PayPal, I believe they will accept customers from any
countries, as long as they have a credit/debit card to register with
them. I do, however, realise that not all european citizens neither
possess nor desire a credit/debit card, and for those, PayPal is not an
alternative.
Second, not being able to use PayPal is an obstacle, albeit a major one.
It does not completely prevent you from paying taxes, though. A money
order in US dollars, or (not safe nor recommended) sending actual cash,
to Gaius Popillius Laenas as consular quaestor is also a possibility.
I am the first one to admit that there is no really good solution for us
who live in countries where credit cards and money transfers are less
common. This is a problem, and one for which we have no solution ready
at hand.
Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
--
"Qui desiderat bellum, praeparet bellum." - Vetinari
|
| Subject: |
Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20NOVA=20ROMA=20=2D=20Annual=20memberships=20now=20d?= |
| From: |
labienus@texas.net |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:57:10 US/Central |
|
Salvete Tiberi Annaee omnesque
> I am very grateful to you, for making this clear.
You are quite welcome.
> I am translating the leges into German since almost 2 years now and I have
> always been wondering about this difference between 'shall' and 'will'. In my
> English studies at the university, everybody wants you to make the difference
> and therefore I was never quite sure.
The uses of "shall" and "will" are different depending on which form of English
one is using. In the US, "shall" is almost never used in everyday speech, and
is often seen as a bit pompous. Take a look at the usage note at
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=shall for more information. And, do note
that many of the authors of Nova Roma's laws most likely were not aware of such
grammatical technicalities.
> It now seems, that parts of the senatus consultum have not been implemented
> and therefore the magistrates of NR should consider a delay in the deadline
> of the taxpayment, until these problems are sorted out.
Actually, I was only commenting on the interpretation of "shall", and not on
the text of the senatusconsultum. The full text in question is:
"IV. The Senate shall, with the aid and assistance of the local governors,
assign Publicani (sing. Publican) to assist with the efficient and cost-
effective collection of taxes, where it deems appropriate."
Take note of the last clause of that sentence: "where it deems appropriate."
This gives the Senate the freedom to exercise its discretion in appointing
Publicani, including the ability not to appoint any Publicani at all.
Therefore, while Cornelius Consul's stated reason for his conclusion that the
Senate is free not to appoint Publicani was erroneous, the conclusion itself is
still reasonably correct.
That said, the Senate will almost certainly vote upon an extension of the tax
deadline fairly soon. I, for one, will be voting in favor of it.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A=20=5Bnovaroma=5D=20Re=3A=20NOVA=20ROMA=20=2D=20Annual=20memberships=20now=20d?= |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:40:09 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve Tiberi Annaee,
> I am very grateful to you, for making this clear. I am translating the leges
> into German since almost 2 years now and I have always been wondering about
> this difference between 'shall' and 'will'. In my English studies at the
> university, everybody wants you to make the difference and therefore I was
> never quite sure.
Praetor Labienus has posted about the proper usage of the word in a
legal context. The laws, edicts, and Senatus Consulta of Nova Roma
are generally written by people who are not professionals in that
field. We do try to write in the style that we have seen in other
legal documents (macronational laws, and the works of our own
predecessors) but there are occasional failings.
> It now seems, that parts of the senatus consultum have not been implemented
> and therefore the magistrates of NR should consider a delay in the deadline
> of the taxpayment, until these problems are sorted out.
We will soon be voting on a delay.
I agree that there was too little time. The Consuls and Quaestores
have had about a month to research, set up, and test the payment
mechanisms. And, because this is the first year, there are additional
problems that we had not anticipated (such as the need to verify addresses
before using paypal).
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
"Martins-Esteves" <esteves@compuland.com.br> |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:37:47 -0200 |
|
Salvete Cives
I don't feel so confortable by dropping into this discussion without beeing able to offer a good alternative to the language problem we face. However I feel I must say something:
1. A language serves not only to communication but also to opression. Several languages were used to impose an specific culture over other peoples. Latin is a good example to this in the Ancient World. Also Russian language in USSR and English in the modern Occident (let's not forget Chinese in Asia).
In fact the English language has been used throughout the past century to outspread USA-an values in the world. This process was more or less violent, depending on the recipient country or the situation. There is no need to say that this has granted many hostility (or prevention) against USA and English. Obviously the British Empire is also to blame for this. The arrogant victorian behaviour of English officers in Rio de Janeiro, v.g., almost caused a war and whoever is familiar with the carioca (from Rio) culture can notice a slight aversion (or disdain) to English.
2. And back to my point: is English the most practical alternative to an official and mandatory common language in NR?
It certainly is. The majority of the citizenry speaks it as mother tongue and almost everyone else has some familiarity with this language.
But, is it right to impose the use of English?
NO! Of course it is not right!
I understand that it is part of the culture of some of you, citizens, to consider mostly the practical aspects of a question. But try to consider that it is humiliating beeing obliged to use a language, that is directly connected with opression. For some of you, using USA and English language can be a symbole of freedom and justice, bur for millions and millions they are a symbol of opression and devastation. It is obviously not the fault of any Nova Roman in our northern provinces in America.
Look, people, I am not an extremist. Every learned person in Brasil (and in some of the countries I know) does feel the same about it.
3. I don't feel any confortable about having to use English. It is simply not the Roma I dreamed to live in. Don't forget this could lead to more resignations. I have a commitment with NR as long as it represents the Roman ideals. If Nova Roma represents practically only the cives from the USA, I will not think twice before leaving it.
I wouldn't like my message would be called << inflammatory and not seriously involved in addressing the problem >>. This is a VERY serious discussion and we cannot avoid dealing with some unpleasant issues. I really think this macronational themes are preponderant in this discussion.
Valete
Titus Horatius Atticus
Rogator
Legatus no Rio de Janeiro
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Emailing list for Gens Gladia |
| From: |
Andrea Gladia Cyrene <andrea_gladia@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:46:38 -0800 (PST) |
|
Ave omnes!
For those of you who are in gens Gladia and I do not have your email
address on hand, here is the URL to subscribe to our gens emailing
list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaGladia
Or email me with your full Nova Roman name and desired email and I will
subscribe you myself.
Gratias tibi ago,
=====
Andrea Gladia Cyrene
Apollinis Templi Sacerdotis
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne ICQ: 6663573
http://TempleApollo.faithweb.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Emailing list for Gens Gladia |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:48:58 -0800 |
|
Ave,
Very excellent Andrea Gladia. I cannot stress the importance of having an email list bind a family closer together!
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrea Gladia Cyrene
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 8:46 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Emailing list for Gens Gladia
Ave omnes!
For those of you who are in gens Gladia and I do not have your email
address on hand, here is the URL to subscribe to our gens emailing
list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRomaGladia
Or email me with your full Nova Roman name and desired email and I will
subscribe you myself.
Gratias tibi ago,
=====
Andrea Gladia Cyrene
Apollinis Templi Sacerdotis
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne ICQ: 6663573
http://TempleApollo.faithweb.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Taxes et Provinciae |
| From: |
"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:40:29 -0000 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
A suggestion has been made that Provincial Governors might be able to
help with tax collection outside the USA. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
has offered to collect taxes in her Province of Canada and to remit
them in a lump sum. Such a system would certainly save bank and
other fees for cives who cannot or do not wish to use Paypal.
If other Governors are willing and able to assist in this way, I
suggest they notify their cives. I also suggest civies who wish to
pay the tax, but who cannot find a reasonable way to do so, contact
their Governor and see if any help is available.
Not all Governors may be equipped to handle such a transaction and
each is free to decide his or her level of participation. Also,
cives should remember that the Governors have not been bonded. The
cost is simply out of line with regard to the total amount of taxes
expected to be collected (Frankly, there will be plenty of room in
the temple to store the expected tax "haul"). Although the
possibility of a defalcation by such noble magistrates over such
small amounts is, in my opinion, very remote, the issue has been
raised before.
Valete
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Consular Quaestor
payments@novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:33:31 -0800 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I've followed this Language thread for some time now and think I need some
clarification.
(To the "English only" camp)
What negative effects would result from including any language a civis
chooses to use in informal locales?
(To the "All languages" camp)
What language do we write our laws and official documents in if we don't use
English?
My commitment to NR has led me to pursue a Classics degree which includes
the Latin language. Learning this language should be the goal of every Nova
Roman. Until we are all fluent latinists we need compromise. I see the above
issues as the barriers between the two opposing views. Perhaps if all
languages were allowed in all informal venues, then English might be
tolerated as the language of NR bureaucracy?
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@home.com
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious
Nam ex parente meo et ex aliis sanctis viris ita accepi munditias mulieribus
laborem viris convenire omnibusque bonis oportere plus gloriae quam
divitiarum esse.
I have learned from my father and other holy men that women are suited to
elegance, while men to work; and that all good people should have more glory
than wealth.
Sallustius Crispus quoting Marius
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martins-Esteves" <esteves@compuland.com.br>
To: <novaroma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Language Law
> Salvete Cives
>
>
> I don't feel so confortable by dropping into this discussion without
beeing able to offer a good alternative to the language problem we face.
However I feel I must say something:
>
Message snipped...........
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Language Law |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
13 Feb 2002 16:51:34 -0200 |
|
Em Qua, 2002-02-13 às 16:33, Lucius Mauricius Procopious escreveu:
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> I've followed this Language thread for some time now and think I need some
> clarification.
>
> (To the "English only" camp)
> What negative effects would result from including any language a civis
> chooses to use in informal locales?
>
> (To the "All languages" camp)
> What language do we write our laws and official documents in if we don't use
> English?
>
There is no problem for them to be written in English, the problem is in
forcing them to be written in english.
A law along the lines:
Latin is the official language, at least a translation of the
laws/official documents to the language spoken by the majority of
NovaRoma citizens should be provided with all laws.
would be perfectly fine, and mean, today, an english version is
necessary for all laws/official documents without turning english in an
official language.
Manius Villius Limitanus
> My commitment to NR has led me to pursue a Classics degree which includes
> the Latin language. Learning this language should be the goal of every Nova
> Roman. Until we are all fluent latinists we need compromise. I see the above
> issues as the barriers between the two opposing views. Perhaps if all
> languages were allowed in all informal venues, then English might be
> tolerated as the language of NR bureaucracy?
>
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@home.com
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> Nam ex parente meo et ex aliis sanctis viris ita accepi munditias mulieribus
> laborem viris convenire omnibusque bonis oportere plus gloriae quam
> divitiarum esse.
> I have learned from my father and other holy men that women are suited to
> elegance, while men to work; and that all good people should have more glory
> than wealth.
> Sallustius Crispus quoting Marius
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martins-Esteves" <esteves@compuland.com.br>
> To: <novaroma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Language Law
>
>
> > Salvete Cives
> >
> >
> > I don't feel so confortable by dropping into this discussion without
> beeing able to offer a good alternative to the language problem we face.
> However I feel I must say something:
> >
> Message snipped...........
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana]: Idibus Februaris (on February 13th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@cris.inesc.pt> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:30:00 -0000 |
|
ANTONIVS GRYLLVS GRAECVS PONTIFEX OMNIBVS QVIRITIBVS SALVTEM
Today is a "dies nefastus publicus" (NP), a day of special religious
observance when legal business cannot take place.
Today is also considered a 'dies religiosus' in which it is considered wrong
('nefas') to do anything that is not absolutely necessary, namely:
- To engage in battle;
- To enlist soldiers;
- To hold Comitia;
- To start a voyage;
- To marry.
The Idus of every month are sacred to Iuppiter. An white ewe is sacrificed
to Iuppiter by the Flamen Dialis.
Today is the birthday of the temple of Faunus at the Tiberine Island, and
this festival is also celebrated in the countryside. The temple of Faunus
was dedicated in 198 BC and the money that the Aediles used to build it
derived from fines levied in 196 BC on defaulting farmers of public land
('pecuarii').
In the countryside, the sacrifice to Faunus took place at the groves where
he reigns and consisted of an ewe-lamb or a kid [Horatius, Odes, 1.4.11
seq.].
Today, at the 6th hour started the Parentalia, a quite period of remembrance
of the dead (specially the deceased parents) that lasts until either
February 21 (Feralia) or February 22 (Caristia). Groups of mourners went to
the graveyards that lined the roads outside of the city, and performed their
private rites ('sacra privata'). According to Ovidius [Ovidius, Fasti,
2.535-540 seq.], the Manes prefer piety to costly presents. As such, in
order to appease the souls of the dead ("placandis Manibus"), one must only
bring a small offering of a tile wreathed with votive garlands, a sprikling
of corn, a few grains of salt, bread soaked in wine and some loose violets,
all that in a potsherd which is to be left near the tombs. During this
period, the dead are believed to walk freely and harmlessly around the tombs
to receive the offerings. Nevertheless, the doors of the temples remain
closed.
On this day, the fist day of the Parentalia, a Vestal Virgin (presumably the
Senior Vestal) performed ceremonies in honour of the dead as recorded in the
calendar of Philocalus ('Virgo Vestalis parantat'). Since Tarpeia, who
according to the legend had betrayed the Capitol to the Sabines, was said to
have been a Vestal and libations were offered anually to her restless spirit
at her tomb on the Capitol [see Dionysus of Halicarnassus, 2.40], this
attempt to lay her ghost could have been made at the Parentalia, but this
conjecture is far from certain.
Di vos incolumes custodiant
|
