Subject:	[novaroma] Thank you very much
From:	"luciuspompeius" <danielovi@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:31:42 -0000

Salvete omnes.
I want to express my gratitude as proprætor provincialis Argentinæ to
all who expressed their support for a tax extension for my province
at this very difficult time.
Maximas gratias vobis ago, amici mei!
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Proprætor provincialis Argentinæ




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Almost all text in Latin we know ...
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	22 Feb 2002 21:02:10 -0300

Em Sex, 2002-02-22 às 17:01, tiberius.ann@bluemail.ch escreveu:
> Salve,
>
> >With sucha a tool, if someone does not learn Latin is because he/she does
> >not want!
>
> Please, don't be so harsh! I try since 5 years to yearn enough Latin to
> be able to translate simple texts from German into Latin, but I'm still
> not able to do so. I don't believe, that I don't wont to learn this language,
> since I spent the last 5 years trying.
>
> By, the way, I am not offended by the statement. I only think, that there
> need to be some differences made.
>

As you now, I am realy in favour of speaking laatin, but I must say
that perseus is a fantastic tool in order to become able to read latin.

But writing/speaking is a another story, unfortunately.

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	[novaroma] Scythians of Dobrudja
From:	David =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E1nchez?= <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 03:10:17 +0100

Salvete Cives, another about Scythians ...

One of the successor states to the classical Scythian Kingdom was the
"Little Scythia" which arose in northern Thrace (Dobrudja) ca. 250 BC.
According to Strabo, its population base was made up of the masses of
Scythian emigrants from areas west of the Dnipro r. who left their
previous abodes to escape the relentless pressure of Sarmats and other
incoming peoples, and who were not interested in combining with those
Scythians who had concentrated around the cities of the Lower Dnipro and
in the Crimea. Pliny notes that the Scythians of Dobrudja were primarily
"Aratores", i.e. Aukhata. Their state lasted for approximately 150 years
until it was destroyed (so the leading theory holds) by the Bastarnae.
The area of this state continued to be known as "Scythia" for hundreds
of years, and was so designated in Roman administrative lists.==== The
kings of this "Little Scythia" were more hellenized than those of the
Crimea and the Lower Dnipro, judging by their appearance in surviving
coins. Six royal names are known:

KANIT
KHORAPS
APROS
SARIA
ELI
TANOUS

Subject:	[novaroma] Interesting pages
From:	Piparskeggr - Venator <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:34:01 -0600

Avete Omnes,

Traveling the web, I chanced upon these:

Ball Games
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/romeball.html

Board Games
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/roma/rbgames.html

Musical Instruments
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/muse/

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Civis Nova Romana et Paterfamilias
Legatus Occidentalis pro Magna Lacus

Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html

Dominus Sodalis
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

"In Paris they just simply opened their eyes and stared when we spoke to them in French! We
never did succeed in making those idiots understand their own language." - Mark Twain

Subject:	[novaroma] Charming site
From:	Piparskeggr - Venator <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:18:39 -0600

Avete Omnes,

A thoroughly charming look at Rome, though the eyes of sixth year students, from a UK grammar
school website.

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/wheatley/Year%206%20romans.htm

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Women and religion
From:	mark zona <pitdog2002@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:21:42 -0800 (PST)

--- gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com> wrote:
> Salve G. Cassi,


>
> Didn't the Temple have something like a "women's
> guild"?
>
To the very best of my knowledge, there was no
"official" womens guild at the temple in Jerusalem
during Republican or Imperial Rome, but unofficial
ones may have existed. Part of the problem in the
study of temple worship of Jerusalem during this
period is that most documented sources comes from
parsi'im (pharisees)and not tsaddukim (Saducess). It
was the tsaddukim who ran the temple, but they did not
document much. The parsi'im had much to say about the
Temple, but many parsi'im shunned the temple in
opposition to the way the tsaddukim ran the temple. So
their opinions may not be fully accurate because they
rarely went to the Temple. Contrary to very popular
modern belief.

In order to further inquire into whether or not there
was an active womens guild during the Roman/judaic
alliance, it may be best to consult with a learned Jew
who has an extensive library of ancient Talmudic
literature. Most orthodox Jews have access to such a
library.

Vale Bene,

M. Antonius Zeno



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Women and religion and judaism. OT? Dunno
From:	mark zona <pitdog2002@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:38:34 -0800 (PST)

Salve M. Salexi et Omnes,

Let me begin by stating that this conversation is not
off topic (not that anyone has stated this yet), as
these were matters that occured within the pantheon
that was Imperial Rome. So my fellow Romans, bare with
us :)


--- javier_gil_ruiz <javier_gil_ruiz@yahoo.es> wrote:

>
> We had been debating on that matter in the
> NRHispania list (a rare
> haven of religio, linguistics, history, art and
> sociological threads
> where flames are a rarity and specific and extensive
> knowledge a
> given) before my honorable codecurio and scriba
> propraetoris Cl. Sl.
> Daviane presented the question here.
>
> The trouble there is`precisely that our knowledges
> are similar in
> nature if not in depth (as is natural: we're from
> the same cultural
> environment). Some members explained us part of
> their professional
> knowledge about the judaic precedents of
> christianity, judaism in the
> era of christ, and just before it. And about
> christianism and
> mithraism.
>
> Some facts about post christ judaism were exposed
> too, such as the
> (for me) surprising existence of the three years of
> jewish
> independence in the 610's where sacrificial cult was
> reestablished in
> the country.
>
> Yet much is left for us to know from the spiritual
> life of judaism in
> imperial rome (and later) and, if you have the time,
> we'd like to
> amiably request you to explain us a bit of it when
> you have the time.

Zeno: It would be my pleasure :)
During Imperical Rome, most Jews lived outside the
traditional homeland of Judah. Most tended to be
pharisees who put a heavy emphasis on learning and
debating "in very socratarian ways" the Torah. Through
debate and counter-debates, they produced a vast
collection of laws based on the ritualistic and
moralistic commandments from the Torah. By and large,
whereas Jews of any sect kept the basic commandements
of the Torah (including the ritualistic ones like
tomeh, or dietary laws like kashrut), the pharisees
considered it the highest act of piety to be learned
in Talmudic laws and argumentation. Temple worship was
well becoming less popular within Judaism. Only one
temple to YHWH was kosher, the one in Jerusalem, and
that was too far away for most Jews and run by
saddukim who did not know Torah very well. Which to
the pharisees was the ultimate in impiety.
So the center of religious devotion, like the Religio
Romana tended to be the home. Thus women had a vital
role in keeping the household kosher (ritualisticly
pure, especially the kitchen) and educating the
children. The male was to do the mitzvahs that were
required, recite ritualistic prayers at the
appropriate times, but if he were "really pious", he
would head to the bais midrash (house of study, later
to be hellenized to "synagogue") and debate some
Torah.
There were other smaller judaic sects that had
different emphasis, but pharisaic Judaism was by far
the largest single sect, and most Jews throughout the
empire were mainstream Pharisees.

unsnip:
>
> > >
> > > Among the "moral " religions of the empire:
> > > Judaism-Christianism, SNIP
> >
> > Even in imperical times, the differences between
> > Judaism and Christianism were such that the two
> > religions should be considered seperately, and not
> > lumped together.
>
> An undiscussable fact, but as the saying goes the
> devil is in the
> details.
>
> Christianism was, in its beginning stages, not more
> that a particular
> way of understanding judaism, at least until the
> council of
> jerusalem. I have also been told of the many
> different ways of
> understanding judaism of that era, such as the
> saduceic, the
> pharisaic, the essenian... But only up to the first
> century (blame
> catholic education :-) ). Christianism eventually
> evolved, etc. in a
> way that is widely known.
>
> Did judaism get a mainstream just after that? Well,
> of course it did,
> but how and when? Expressed otherwise, when do you
> think that judaism
> got so mainstream ofr christianism so different that
> you could only
> talk about two different religions.

Zeno: Judaism already had a mainstream established by
the time Christianism appeared on the scene, and the
mainstream continued virtually uneffected by
Christianism until the Religio Romana fell from
officialdom in Rome. This mainstream started (by
traditional references) at the conclusion of the
Babylonian exile, where Judaism took a more scrupulous
look at the laws of there religion and began a
legalistic system of interpretation. During the days
of imperial Rome, Mainstrain Jews were generally
refered to as parsi'im (Pharisees). Saducees tended to
be too aristocratic and rejected popular post-Torah
concepts such as afterlife, Messiah, Oral Tradition,
and a whole slew of books which we refer to today as
"the Bible". Essenes were refered to as "chassidim
HaNarim" (pious fools) by most people. "They would
rather let a woman drown then save her and thus render
themselves ritualisticly impure" (tomeh) by touching
her.
Pharisees tended to be legalists who obeyed all the
laws of the Torah, both written and oral, yet still
allowed for religio-philosophical speculation. It was
the most popular form of Judaism during the Imperial
Rome and would be the only one to servive to present
day. Today, pharisaic Judaism is what we would refer
to today as orthodox Judaism.
When did Christianism become a different religion from
Judaism? Well, consider that Judaism was utmost
concerned with following laws that governed every
aspect of not only your spiritual life, but your
ordinary mundane life as well. Not just what you did,
but the way you did it. Virtually everything did was
regulated by a divine ordinance as to how you were to
do it, not to mention the obligations and prohibitions
that went with that.
When Christianism came on the scene, this was done
away with almost from the start. Faith in the demi-god
Jesus replaced scrupulous adherence to the Torah.
Although the basic common sense moral laws were
retained, the complete devotion to YHWH based on
scrupulously studying and performing the various
rituals and formulae for everyday living was
completely done away with. It is an error to assume
that Christianism was Judaism until the council of
Jerusalem. All the council of Jerusalem did is
apostolically confirm what was already happening
within the galilean community. I would say that in my
opinion, Christianism never really was a sect of
Judaism in that it never had the requirement to obey
ritualistic commandments that all other sects did
have. Jesus is really more similar to Buddha in that
he basically started his own religion. Although the
early Christians may have practiced some Judaism, the
Christian practices and beliefs were universally
foreign to Judaism and were practiced side by side.
(keeping the sabbath on saturdays, then gathering for
"the meal" on sundays).
>
>
> > > (2) Did they give an active participation to
> women?
> >
> > Yes, but the religious function of women in
> Judaism
> > was very different then men. Women were exempt
> from
> > most ritualistic requirements, but obligated in
> others
> > that men were exempt from. There were of coarse
> > requirements that included both men and women.
> >
>
> Well, what I gatherred about the status of women in
> early catholicism
> is that it was determined by the priority of making
> it different from
> the status of women in pagan religions. Thus actual
> office was soon
> discouraged -and eventually banned- , wearing long
> unbridled (bad
> expression) hair was countered by instituting the
> custom of wearing
> veil, and any kind of ecstatic aproach to
> oracularism also banned.
>

> Whereas the approach to judaism was different. There
> are sources that
> confirm that in those times jewish scripture sages
> were often
> consulted in spiritual matters by the christian
> population, as they
> were looked upon as holier and wiser than the normal
> lay but baptized
> christian (yes, the christian sacerdocy had other
> views...).


>
> Thus, it could be assumed that even if judaic
> practices were not
> directly inherited in the status and role of
> christian women (or in
> other matters), they could have been transmitted
> from judaism to
> christianism later on.

> That is just a guess. ¿What do you think?

Zeno: I think there was influence from Judaism. The
fact that only
certain males were priests, no females, and the fact
that this influenced synagogue worship to be dominated
by male rabbis, caused a trickle down to christianism.

Bare in mind that Judaism began as a devotive cult to
an obscure babylonian wargod....this is a religion
that puts most of the funtions on the males, (though
still demands certain ritual acts from females as
well). If a new religion were to sprout off of this
one, I expect it would have some predominately male
tendancies. In other words, I agree :)
>
>I hope that I have adressed your questions
adequately.
If you have other questions, my prvt e-mail is
markzona@mindspring.com.

Valete!

M. Antonius Zeno

>
>
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Greeks and Romans
From:	"tasia" <tasia43@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:25:34 -0800

I can't seem to find any books that talk about Greeks and Romans together. It seems like as far as history occured there was the Greek Civilisation. It ended Rome started and the books I find never really discuss the interactions after Rome came to power.

I am interested in Greek History during the time of the Romans - but the books on both really talk about neither culture.

Any ideas on some good books?

What areas in Greece would there have been interactions? I have heard that Thrace had many Roman settlements - moreso than perhaps the areas near Thessaly and Athens??

tasia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] WHO is the AUTHOR ?
From:	"Prometheus" <marcusprometheus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:56:19 +0100

Year approx. 250 - 300
A Christian teacher walks on the sea shore with two students, 1 pagan, 1
christian.
They meet a statue of a god. The pagan shows respect to the statue and the
christian student asks the teacher why he permits such behaviour without
condemning it.

Author is a christian writing before 313 year of the Milan tolerance edict
by Constantine emperor.

WHO IS THE AUTHOR?

Please answer to fresco@fx.ro
Best regards
Marcus Prometheus

Subject:	[novaroma] First ceremony for the Temple Religio Romana
From:	"rj_film" <ron4arts@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:07:17 -0000

I was fortunate to attend the first service at the Temple of Religio
Romana in Tustin, California. It was very beautiful, moving and
enlightening.

The ceremony began with an reading of a poem by Emporer Julian. It
was an excerpt from the closing Hymn of the "Oration to the Mother of
God." Followed by a ritual for the festival of Parentalia. Next, a
reading from Cato the Elder. The priestess then gave a modern
interpretation to help us connect to this ancient thought. Then, a
moving presentation on the nature of Sacrifice was given which was
both inspirational and insightful. It helped to clarify many of the
misconceptions connecting this ancient practice. We then had an
interactive discussion about Sacrifice in our own lives and its
benefit to us and those around us. The ceremony ended with a
beautiful closing poem written
by Antonia Cornelia Octavia.

This program created an ancient, mystical feel but with practical
application in our modern lives and was most enriching.

Upcoming activities were then announced, as well as progress of
Temple members in their various projects.

We then had the opportunity to get to know each others company in the
fellowship session that followed, including snacks and drinks.

I look forward with enthusiasm to the next ceremony.

Vale,

Remus Octavious Porus





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: First ceremony for the Temple Religio Romana
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <trog99@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:20:27 -0000

--- Salve Remus Octavious:

This is just lovely. I am glad this was a moving and spiritually
enlightening experience. My commendations to Antonia and others who
organized such a physical gathering.

I am glad you reported on this; perhaps more in the area will join
you for the next ceremony.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia


In novaroma@y..., "rj_film" <ron4arts@y...> wrote:
> I was fortunate to attend the first service at the Temple of
Religio
> Romana in Tustin, California. It was very beautiful, moving and
> enlightening.
>
> The ceremony began with an reading of a poem by Emporer Julian. It
> was an excerpt from the closing Hymn of the "Oration to the Mother
of
> God." Followed by a ritual for the festival of Parentalia. Next,
a
> reading from Cato the Elder. The priestess then gave a modern
> interpretation to help us connect to this ancient thought. Then, a
> moving presentation on the nature of Sacrifice was given which was
> both inspirational and insightful. It helped to clarify many of
the
> misconceptions connecting this ancient practice. We then had an
> interactive discussion about Sacrifice in our own lives and its
> benefit to us and those around us. The ceremony ended with a
> beautiful closing poem written
> by Antonia Cornelia Octavia.
>
> This program created an ancient, mystical feel but with practical
> application in our modern lives and was most enriching.
>
> Upcoming activities were then announced, as well as progress of
> Temple members in their various projects.
>
> We then had the opportunity to get to know each others company in
the
> fellowship session that followed, including snacks and drinks.
>
> I look forward with enthusiasm to the next ceremony.
>
> Vale,
>
> Remus Octavious Porus

Subject:	[novaroma] NEW WEBSITE: Cohors Aedilis CAESO FABIUS QUINTILIANUS
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@telia.com>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:23:53 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

It is a honor to hereby declare the publishing the website of Cohors
Aelilis C.F.Q. (The Staff of Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus)
at http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/.

This site is built with the cooperative work of all members of the
Cohors. I am very proud to have gathered such a enthusiastic and
competent group of assistants. Without them I couldn't have
accomplished anything.

The site will be up-dated as soon as new material is ready and each
update will be published on the Nova Roma main list. All the Ludi
under my responsibility will be published here as they become ready,
the Rally in Belgium will be expanded as needed and my future Edicta
Aedilicum will also be published here.
--

Valete

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor of Thule
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an official opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Games for PC/Pompeii
From:	"oppiusflaccus" <oppiusflaccus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:51:24 -0000

--- In novaroma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:
> I found a Roman computergame here, in the Navy Exchange, for 20
> dollars.
>
> It is called 'Return to Pompeii'. You are sent back into time by
> Isis {who is the antagonist!} to Pompeii, four days before Vesuvius
> erupts. You have to find and persuade a young woman to return back
> into the future with you before you both end up as plaster castings
> on display somewhere.
>
Salvete Nerva et Quiritibus;

If anyone finds a site or means of purchase of this game, I'd much
appreciate a message to my addy at 'oppiusflaccus@yahoo.com'
It sounds pretty cool!

My initial net searches came up with nothing but am continuing to look.

Bene valete,
-Oppius

Subject:	[novaroma] Ceremony of Temple of Religio Romana
From:	AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:35:17 -0800 (PST)

Salve Pompeia Cornelia,

Gratias Multas for your support. It is greatly
appreciated. I must say we were a bit unsure as to
what reaction our first ceremony would bring but were
delighted to find that it was overwhelmingly very
positive. The only complaint we had was that is
wasn't long enough! It tell us that there is a thirst
for this knowledge. Our closing poem to Rome in which
everyone joined in to recite was:
"As time immemorial extends Her sweet song into our
souls, let us sing Her praises once more with the
voices of eternity."

Vale,

Antonia Cornelia Octavia

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