Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Province
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:05:14 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

I am glad that so many have paid their taxes, still we could have
been more. Let's beat this number with at least 50% next year!

While I am at it, I must Congratulate the real winner, if You count
by % of its citizens! HISPANIA, well done!

1. Hispania 14/46 = 30,4%, (14,4% being the average)

I have found that Hispania is become more and more a cornerstone in
Nova Roma. Keep up the good work!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor of Thule
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an official opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Gentes
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:08:07 -0800

Avete Omnes,

HEY HEY HEY....Cornelii Empire...LOL umm...nice ring to it...LOL Too bad I am very Republican in my leanings. <g> Considering my family outnumbers the entire SVR!

But seriously, I think the Gens Cornelia turned out wonderfully in regards to the tax payer turnout. I have already emailed the Gens Cornelia and told them how very proud I am at the civic virtue they have shown by paying the tax.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
----- Original Message -----
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 3:54 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Gentes



Salvete cives et amici,

Out of the sake of curiosity, how many citizens per-gentes paid this years
annual tax? I know my own gens had horribly low numbers for the amount of
members we have. We are a large patrician gens with 20 members, yet we only
have two tax payers among us. One being myself, and another a citizen whom I
never seen from. Is this a common occurrence? I am also curious at how the
legendary ³Cornelii Empire² did compared to most. Provincial authorities
play a large part in getting citizens active, although do paters/maters play
a part in this process? If someone could provide a list of taxes paid by
gentes I would be very interested in seeing the results.

Valete,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Gentes
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@bconnex.net>
Date:	Mon, 01 Apr 2002 19:16:43 -0500

Salve Consul L. Cornelius Sulla,

>L. Cornelius Sulla at alexious@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> HEY HEY HEY....Cornelii Empire...LOL umm...nice ring to it...LOL Too bad I am
> very Republican in my leanings. <g> Considering my family outnumbers the
> entire SVR!

It just goes to prove what hard work and dedication to ones gens can
achieve. Your gens is gifted to have such an active pater.

>
> But seriously, I think the Gens Cornelia turned out wonderfully in regards to
> the tax payer turnout. I have already emailed the Gens Cornelia and told them
> how very proud I am at the civic virtue they have shown by paying the tax.

I am sure it did. My mater seems to have failed to pay her taxes, and is
still on "unknown" status. I guess you can't expect much from a gens if even
it's leader doesn't pay. Going by the silent nature of my gens, maybe two
tax payers is not so bad.....


Vale,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The fate of famed artifacts...
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:23:37 -0500

Salve!

Thank you for the reply - would it be possible to email a copy of the
picture? I would appreciate it very much!

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: Scipio Apollonius [mailto:scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 4:42 AM
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: The fate of famed artifacts...

Salve,

I have found in the Roma-rcheologia (italian version)
a picture of an altar of victory (basamento della
Vittoria, Musei Capitolini)
I have a picture of it. Although, I am quite sure that
several of such altars did exist, I do not know if
this one is the one you mentionned.
I guess this one was dedicated for the victory of
Marius over Jugurta.

Salve,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio

--- deciusiunius <bcatfd@together.net> wrote:
> --- In novaroma@y..., "C. Minucius Hadrianus"
> <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> > Salvete,
>
> Salve,
>
>
> > I am curious is there any information regarding
> the fate of the
> >Altar of Victory, the Palladium or the Sibylline
> Books? Were they
> >lost or destroyed?
>
> The fate of the first two is unknown though one can
> speculate, the
> last was mostly destroyed, though fragments have
> survived into the
> present day.
>
> In the 4th Century the Altar of Victory was removed
> from and put back
> into the Senate several times until its likely final
> removal in 394
> during the reign of Theodosius. What happened to it
> after that is a
> mystery from what I have been able to determine. At
> first it was
> probably put into storage in or near the senate
> curia. Likely it
> remained there for a number of years, even decades
> until it appeared
> certain it was not going to be returned to its place
> of honor in the
> senate. I have 3 theories as to what happened to it
> at that point: 1.
> it may have been destroyed at the instigation of
> some overzealous
> Christian senators or officials, since the Ara
> Victoriae represented,
> more than any other item, pagan Rome personified; 2.
> It may have
> been moved to the private residence of one of
> remaining members of
> the pagan senatorial aristocracy or a sympathetic
> Christian senator
> who wished to save it for the future and love of art
> and history.
> From there it may have been buried for posterity,
> fell into ruin
> through years of neglect or turned into building
> material by the
> family's descendants who did not appreciate what was
> in their
> possession ; 3. Or it may have stayed in senate
> storage until being
> taken out and broken into pieces for building
> material for a wall or
> new structure, as many ancient artifacts and
> buildings were that were
> no longer wanted.
>
> Which scenario is most likely? Least likely I think
> is option 1. The
> Christians of Rome did not display the
> destructiveness of those
> elsewhere, such as in Alexandria. Neglect and
> barbarians did more
> damage than religious zealots. Still, it is a
> possibiltity. I am a
> romantic and like to think option two is what
> happened, that some
> pagan or Christian senatorial family saved the Ara
> Victoriae on their
> property and that eventually it was buried to
> preserve it or protect
> it. I am optimistic and hope that it will be found
> intact. However,
> realistically I am just as inclined to go with
> option 3, that it was
> taken out and used for building material for a new
> structure, or even
> for road material. If this is the case then it is
> possible that the
> pieces will be found through archelogical excavation
> and pieced
> together, as has happened with some artifacts. This
> is all
> speculation, however.
>
> I am less versed as to what happened to the
> Palladium. Due to its
> size it could easily have been destroyed or
> overlooked. I have heard
> that possibly Constantine had it moved to
> Constantinople when he
> founded that city. If it was moved there and if it
> survived the
> iconoclasm of the 7th and 8th centuries, it is not
> likely to have
> survived the destructiveness of the Turks in 1453.
>
>
> As for the Sibylline books, the books consulted in
> Rome, stored in a
> temple on the Palatine as I recall, were destroyed
> in the late
> 4th/early 5th century. Some 14 books of Sibylline
> prediction survive,
> mixed with Christian interpretations, predictions
> and additions.
> Christian and older pagan material is mixed together
> in these books.
> Hopefully someone else can shed more light on these
> for you as I am
> not as familair with them.
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius,
> Senator Consularis
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The fate of famed artifacts...
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:23:37 -0500

Salve!

Thank you for the quick and quite detailed reply!! I myself would like
to think that option 2 was the case, and perhaps one day the altar will
be discovered and unearthed from under some Italian farmhouse. The
recent discoveries at Herculaneum certainly give us some hope that such
a thing could be possible!

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: deciusiunius [mailto:bcatfd@together.net]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 11:39 PM
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The fate of famed artifacts...

--- In novaroma@y..., "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> Salvete,

Salve,


> I am curious is there any information regarding the fate of the
>Altar of Victory, the Palladium or the Sibylline Books? Were they
>lost or destroyed?

The fate of the first two is unknown though one can speculate, the
last was mostly destroyed, though fragments have survived into the
present day.

In the 4th Century the Altar of Victory was removed from and put back
into the Senate several times until its likely final removal in 394
during the reign of Theodosius. What happened to it after that is a
mystery from what I have been able to determine. At first it was
probably put into storage in or near the senate curia. Likely it
remained there for a number of years, even decades until it appeared
certain it was not going to be returned to its place of honor in the
senate. I have 3 theories as to what happened to it at that point: 1.
it may have been destroyed at the instigation of some overzealous
Christian senators or officials, since the Ara Victoriae represented,
more than any other item, pagan Rome personified; 2. It may have
been moved to the private residence of one of remaining members of
the pagan senatorial aristocracy or a sympathetic Christian senator
who wished to save it for the future and love of art and history.
>From there it may have been buried for posterity, fell into ruin
through years of neglect or turned into building material by the
family's descendants who did not appreciate what was in their
possession ; 3. Or it may have stayed in senate storage until being
taken out and broken into pieces for building material for a wall or
new structure, as many ancient artifacts and buildings were that were
no longer wanted.

Which scenario is most likely? Least likely I think is option 1. The
Christians of Rome did not display the destructiveness of those
elsewhere, such as in Alexandria. Neglect and barbarians did more
damage than religious zealots. Still, it is a possibiltity. I am a
romantic and like to think option two is what happened, that some
pagan or Christian senatorial family saved the Ara Victoriae on their
property and that eventually it was buried to preserve it or protect
it. I am optimistic and hope that it will be found intact. However,
realistically I am just as inclined to go with option 3, that it was
taken out and used for building material for a new structure, or even
for road material. If this is the case then it is possible that the
pieces will be found through archelogical excavation and pieced
together, as has happened with some artifacts. This is all
speculation, however.

I am less versed as to what happened to the Palladium. Due to its
size it could easily have been destroyed or overlooked. I have heard
that possibly Constantine had it moved to Constantinople when he
founded that city. If it was moved there and if it survived the
iconoclasm of the 7th and 8th centuries, it is not likely to have
survived the destructiveness of the Turks in 1453.


As for the Sibylline books, the books consulted in Rome, stored in a
temple on the Palatine as I recall, were destroyed in the late
4th/early 5th century. Some 14 books of Sibylline prediction survive,
mixed with Christian interpretations, predictions and additions.
Christian and older pagan material is mixed together in these books.
Hopefully someone else can shed more light on these for you as I am
not as familair with them.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Senator Consularis

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Gentes
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:30:46 -0800

Ave Amulius Claudius et al,
----- Original Message -----
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Gentes



Salve Consul L. Cornelius Sulla,

>L. Cornelius Sulla at alexious@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> HEY HEY HEY....Cornelii Empire...LOL umm...nice ring to it...LOL Too bad I am
> very Republican in my leanings. <g> Considering my family outnumbers the
> entire SVR!

It just goes to prove what hard work and dedication to ones gens can
achieve. Your gens is gifted to have such an active pater.

Sulla: Thank you very very much for the compliment. I guess it pays off to be online almost 16 hours a day. I can say I am blessed to have a job that allows me the opportunity to maintain such a presence. However, I am not the only person in the gens and for that I must thank all of my gens members for their participation, comments and criticisms as well. Without them there wouldn't be a Gens Cornelia. I just try to find ways of making them involved both within NR and within the gens itself.
>
> But seriously, I think the Gens Cornelia turned out wonderfully in regards to
> the tax payer turnout. I have already emailed the Gens Cornelia and told them
> how very proud I am at the civic virtue they have shown by paying the tax.

I am sure it did. My mater seems to have failed to pay her taxes, and is
still on "unknown" status. I guess you can't expect much from a gens if even
it's leader doesn't pay. Going by the silent nature of my gens, maybe two
tax payers is not so bad.....

Sulla: I am sorry that you are in such an inactive Gens. I cannot stress enough the involvement within the gens as a means of building cohesivness with NR. I am hoping for the time where the Gens Cornelia can meet as a family in a central location independent of a function like Roman Days. This is something we have discussed on and off again. Rotating the location every couple of years to a different part of the world so that we all will have an opportunity to meet each other. Again, years down the road but just discussing this makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside. I hope that you will find away to make your gens more active or find a suitable alternative that would meet your needs. Family is important. I cannot stress that enough.

Vale,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Paterfamilias Gens Cornelia


Vale,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Province
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:19:57 -0500

Salvete!

Just in case anyone is curious I've provided a breakdown of % of Assidui
per Provincia and total tax collected from each Provincia. Ireland,
Venezuela and New Zealand are treated as separate "provincia" for the
purpose of this chart. As I am unsure how many total civies hail from
these macro-nations I've left them blank in the % column.

The top 5 Provincia for # of Assidui are:

#1 Lacus Magni with 19
#2 California with 17
#3 America Austoccidentalis, America Austrorientalis &
Medatlantica tied with 16 each
#4 Hispania and Nova Britannia tied with 14 each
#5 Brasilia with 11

The top 5 Provincia for % of Assidui:

#1 Hispania with 30.43%
#2 Nova Britannia with 26.42%
#3 Asia Orientalis with 25.00%
#4 Brasilia with 23.40%
#5 America Boreoccidentalis with 22.50%



Provincia
Assidui
Civies
% Assidui
Total Tax

Lacus Magni
19.00
102.00
18.63%
$228.00

California
17.00
81.00
20.99%
$204.00

America Austroccidentalis
16.00
104.00
15.38%
$192.00

America Austrorientalis
16.00
102.00
15.69%
$192.00

Mediatlantica
16.00
152.00
10.53%
$192.00

Hispania
14.00
46.00
30.43%
$168.00

Nova Britannia
14.00
53.00
26.42%
$168.00

Brasilia
11.00
47.00
23.40%
$132.00

America Boreoccidentalis
9.00
40.00
22.50%
$108.00

Canada Orientalis
7.00
42.00
16.67%
$84.00

Germania
6.00
51.00
11.76%
$72.00

Thule
6.00
30.00
20.00%
$72.00

America Medioccidentalis Superior
5.00
42.00
11.90%
$60.00

Gallia
4.00
25.00
16.00%
$48.00

Britannia
3.00
56.00
5.36%
$36.00

Australia
2.00
38.00
5.26%
$24.00

Canada Occidentalis
2.00
29.00
6.90%
$24.00

Italia
2.00
86.00
2.33%
$24.00

Pannonia
2.00
17.00
11.76%
$24.00

Venedia
2.00
14.00
14.29%
$24.00

Argentina
1.00
19.00
5.26%
$12.00

Asia Orientalis
1.00
4.00
25.00%
$12.00

Ireland
1.00
Unk
Unk
$12.00

Lusitania
1.00
13.00
7.69%
$12.00

New Zealand
1.00
Unk
Unk
$12.00

Venezuela
1.00
UNk
Unk
$12.00


Overall I'd say it's a great start and I'm very optimistic about the
future!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Quaestor
Lictor Curiatus
Legate of Massachusetts
Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia


ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for List
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:59:22 -0500 (EST)

Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus;

Thank you for your very kind words. My view is that Limitanus and I
disgree about the language question on the Main List. His point is (I
believe) that anyone should have the right to post to the Main List in
whatever language that they wish, with little or no moderation.

My views are that as a Senator and Magistrate, I have the right and
responsibilty to be able to understand what those citizens, who have
elected me from the world over, have to say. This argument has never
been satisfactorally addressed from his view.

He wants the Latin Language to be the diplomatic and commercial language
on the Main List, and I agree, except that he wants that to happen
immediately, and I think that it will take time to raise the ability of
the majority of Nova Romans to that level; a significant length of time
to get to that point. I have offeredd to begin learning Latin myself,
(not my idea of a fun way to spend my time) to show my support for that
view, but he has not even responded to the offer. Add to that, English
(whether you like the U.S., England, Ireland, Canada, and Australia or
not) is the defacto diplomatic / commercial language in the world of
this age, just as Greek once was, and so is likely to be the language
best understood by the greatest number of people. This has been
explained on several occasions with no apparent acceptance, hich is
strange indeed from an educated person. His argument is that nobody
ever made Latin speakers also write in Greek translations, which may
well be true, but what is also true is that if you couldn't do business
in Greek you didn't do business. Further, the Magistrates, Senatos,
ProConsuls and ProPraetors are expected to hear the views, requests,
ideas, comments,and questions of the Citizens today, something not
really expected in the ancient age of Rome. I doubt there was the
concern for personal feelings in that time that we try to extend here to
our citizens.

We have tried to use Internet translations, but those are not good
enough. We have suggested language lists (some of which are in use) but
they are not good enough either, even though I suspect that something of
this nature was engaged in by Latin speakers in thier own local
communities instead of agonizing over Greek.

I have tried to look at his side of the argument, but there does not
seem to be any attempt to return the effort. In addition, he has called
into question my culture and my nation which is beyond my ability to
ignore. He has begun the tired diatribe of Fascist, Tyranny, and
Oligarchy, which as he well knows has very bad connotations both in Nova
Roma, because of previous demogogues who sought to reshape Nova Roma in
thier own image, and in the world at large. If he does not know, then I
refer him to the not too far distant archives. I am not concerned with
his personal views of myself, but I am very concerned with his apparent
accusations against the government of Nova Roma, the Senate of Nova
Roma, and the collective Magistrates of Nova Roma, as well as the doubt
that such words cast on the judgement of Nova Roman Citizens for whom I
have a very great respect, as theirs is the hardest task of all-----to
select effective Magistrates Annually having only unsupported words and
previous deeds from which to judge.

Many people have attempted to explain the obvious to him, but he has
rejected all such, and has chosen steadily to widen the argument, rather
than to seek a way to come to some determination or way around the
problem of a more immediate nature. For my part, I would think that if
such an organization were founded in Spain, let us say, and it was
intended that it be a world-wide organization that the decision would
still be to use English since it is the most widely spoken language in
the world (with Spanish a close second) not just because it is my
language. I suspect also that were such a decision made by the Spanish,
Danish, or Chekoslovakians, or in fact any other nation, the argumnt
would not be in any way, so contentious. I hve exhausted my arguments
and my alternatives, and would certainly appreciate any fresh or new
ideas, beyond "my way or no way!!!"

The other aspect is that when we have in the past, allowed various
languages used without translations on the Main List, there have been
those who have taken advantage of that situation to E-Mail foul
language, and insults to the Main List in a language which was not
translated. He has complained bitterly about moderation, but during
mine and Q. Fabius Maximus' consulship the attempt was made to leave the
Main List unmoderated, until finally the appeal from the Citizens of
Nova Roma to bring moderation back again grew so great, that the Consuls
were required to bow to thier wishes. Some of the comments from this
gentleman, has indeed indicated the continued need for that moderation.

My purpose in this long post is to bring some sort of sense out of this
argument, with some accomodation to the needs of both sides of the
argument, both in the long and short term, without widening the argument
into insulting the cultures, religions, nations, and purpose of Nova
Roma or her citizens. I am willing to consider such even at this late
date, but for the reasons previously mentioned I am not willing to give
up those responsibilities placed upon me by the Citizens of Nova Roma,
nor would I suppose any Magistrate, Senator, ProConsul, or Propraetor
would be so inclined in his or her turn to do so.

Respectfully,

Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: "Dead" List--I don't think so!!!!!
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:53:12 -0500 (EST)

Tribune Davianus;

Okay, let's say that you didn't know about the other "cultural" Lists
which drain off most of the cultual material from the Main List. There
are certainly mentions of Sodalitas on the Website.

Let us say tht you did not know about the "vote" of the NR Citizens not
to diminish the Political Messages. There is always the archives!!!!

That still leaves your response to a Senior Consul, and pointing an NR
Citizen outside the NR, without suggesting someone here who might show
him the way around NR.

You are a Tribune!!! You were elected to that position to watch over
the Citizens of Nova Roma. Not to send them elsewhere.

Okay, we all make mistakes, so let's end it. From now on if you are not
sure, ask, or go to the archives. If you ask me I will find an answer
for you and get back to you. From now on, when the Senior Consul or any
other Senior Magistrate messages you, that Magistrate deserves your
respect, if not your agreement. Respect him publicly and disagree
privately. Everyone expects Tribunes to disagree, ( I disagree all the
time, and I am a Military Tribune!!!!!!!) but they are also expected to
respect those who hold office by virtue of the NR Citizen's vote.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Herculaneum Lost Library Fund
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:00:23 -0500 (EST)

Nova Roma Citizens;

Depending upon how others feel about it, I would remind everyone that
last year we gathered funds to support one of the activities along
Hadrian's Wall. ProConsul Julianus will have the name an last figures.

Perhaps this year, it would be worthy to consider this Herculaneum Vault
and it's possible library treasures.

Sounds like a interesting consideration. What say you????

Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for List
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	01 Apr 2002 21:29:40 -0300

Em Seg, 2002-04-01 às 18:42, gcassiusnerva escreveu:
> Salve Britannicus,
>
> Britannicus, you and I have never had a quarrel, at least none
> that I remember. I think most people here, you and I included, are
> really, when you get right down to it, just trying to enjoy our
> classical heritage. Talk of land, fundraising for lost libraries,
> all this other stuff notwithstanding, we want to have fun, right?
> Read my comments below in this light.
>
> <<Is this really the answer, Nerva? Or do you think that everyone
> you don't like should leave NR?>>
>
> There are very few people now in NR whom I do not like. I could
> count them on one hand with fingers left over, actually.
>
> <<Just because you disagree with Limitanus' views on secession and
> resignation is no means to suggest that he should leave.>>
>
> His own unhappiness within NR is good reason that he leave. SVR
> was founded to be an alternative for people unhappy with Nova Roma.
> Limitanus is already a member there. That should be fine. He is in
> a group with more like-minded people. He *should* be happy. Yet for
> some reason, he is still unhappy. Unable to find happiness within
> SVR, he feels it necessary to disrupt another group who wish to do
> the same within their own organization. Misery indeed loves
> company! Unable to be happy himself, he must attempt to sow
> unhappiness here.
>
> <<In addition, why should the fact that you disagree with his views
> be good reason for moderating him?>>
>
> Britannicus, can you please explain why any group should welcome with
> open arms those who seek to wreck it? Tell me, how would SVR feel if
> someone from Nova Roma joined it and then advocated it's dissolution,
> accused it's elected magistrates of all sorts of unsavory things,
> said rending it apart piece by piece is a good idea?
>

Nerva did you read my posts? Where did I accuse elected magistrates of
anything? Where did I advocate sessecion? I was speaking to people which
were resigning exhorting them not to lose their romanitas.
Is not better to remain one nation even if divided than to just see
fellow romans vanish?
Romanitas is overall a group value, not an individual one.
What made Rome great is the sense of community not the individuals.
What made Rome survive in bad times is exactly that: individuals could
lose many battles but Rome didn't lose, like against Hannibal, but when
a general won a battle it was Rome that won it.
Individuals are expendable, Rome is not expandable.

Even while under secession (between Plebs and Patricians), both fought
together against external ennemies: That is Romanitas.

Being divided internally was never a problem to be united in front of
external problems.

What we see here today, is nearly the opposite: throw the opposition out
of Rome. Attach more importance to _one's_ local city (macronation) than
to our common nation: Rome.
Trying to reduce the Universal Rome to an organisation inside a local
city, accepting passively the reduction of elementary human rights in
order not to risk to lose a specific status in just one specific local
city.

And now you think that someone who wishes to achieve a greater Rome is
trying to destroy it. I really can't understand you.

> <<Are we then to become a state where talk of different ideas is good
> grounds for suppression?>>
>
> The fact that he is able to post his views is a sure sign that he
> is *not* being censored or "suppressed", nor has he ever been. I
> simply feel that any organization has the right to regulate, even
> expel, those disruptive elements who have *openly advocated* it's
> destruction, as he has done. None of us here were born into Nova
> Roma. We entered because we wanted to, we stay because we are happy
> here. If one is not happy here, and there is an alternative,
> commonsense demands one leave the former and enjoy the latter.
>

Common Roman sense demands to fight in order to better things not to
flee or go home.

Manius Villius Limitanus
> <<Marcus Minucius Audens, I congratulate you - you disagree with
> Limitanus, and have told him why, and not included a single ad
> hominem attack.>>
>
> Neither have I. And in fact, some of the Proconsul's remarks are
> stronger than my own. But I agree with them regardless.
>
> <<This is how discussions should be conducted, cives.>>
>
> And that is how this one has been conducted.
>
> Gaius Cassius Nerva
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Herculaneum Lost Library Fund
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@bconnex.net>
Date:	Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:07 -0500

Salve Marcus Minucius Audens,

>Marcus Minucius Audens at MarcusAudens@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Depending upon how others feel about it, I would remind everyone that
> last year we gathered funds to support one of the activities along
> Hadrian's Wall. ProConsul Julianus will have the name an last figures.
>
> Perhaps this year, it would be worthy to consider this Herculaneum Vault
> and it's possible library treasures.
>
> Sounds like a interesting consideration. What say you????

I am currently working on getting in contact with those who are working on
the villa in Italy. I found a few contacts from media sources set up for the
project and have emailed them asking for some more detailed information.
Hopefully they will get back to me promptly. It would also be wonderful if
the senate gave this idea serious consideration. With the amount we raised
through taxes this year, maybe the treasury of Nova Roma could contribute
along with personal donations.

As soon as I get more detailed information I would be happy to present it to
the senate and people of Nova Roma on this list.

Vale,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Province
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:17:58 -0800 (PST)

Everyone please take note that Lacus Magni has the
most paid thus far. IT is because I threatened to
send out the XIVth Legio to collect if necessary. ;)
Just some advice for my fellow Propraetors.
Actually, I've emailed each of my citizens personally
to remind and advice them to pay their taxes like good
citizens. So hopefully our numbers will go up.
Especially since half the taxes is returned to the
Provincia for use with provincia events.

M.Scipio Africanus
Propraetor of Lacus Magni

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Province
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:22:49 -0800 (PST)

Thank your ProConsul Audens for your kind and sincere
words. I speak for all the citizens of my provincia
when I say that we have decided to take the torch, and
be the vanguard of the Republic. Through our hard
work and dedication to the Roman Virtues, we hope to
set a shining example to all of Rome's citizens. As
we like to say in Lacus Magni, "Service Guarantees
Citizenship!"

Propraetor M. Scipio Africanus

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for List
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:19:04 -0500 (EST)

Manius Villius Limitanus;

Perhaps if it is necessary for you to rexplain your every post, then you
should be more careful what you say. You have asked me to re-read your
posts as well, and I see what confuses Nerva and Maximus. I see the same
old argments repated again and again with no attempt to come to some
kind of conjunction of thought. I have indicated that there are some
real problems, and your response is the same argument again. I have
given you my reasons and appraised you with my efforts but you make no
effort to even indcate that you have heard me, much less that I have
problems as you have problems. You accuse, and we ask, let's get down
to where we both have problems, and try to come up with something
besides the same old song. in tired repitition.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Herculaneum Lost Library Fund
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:11 -0500 (EST)

Aedile Petrus;

You may do as you wish of course. I am honored to have been selected as
Senate Respondorum and such is my responsibiliy o present like items to
the Senate, however, the Senate being the organization that it is,
anyone may post to it.

Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	[novaroma] Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for List Moderation}
From:	"curiobritannicus" <marcusaemiliusscaurus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:16:22 -0000

Salve Nerva,

> Britannicus, you and I have never had a quarrel, at least none
> that I remember.

You're correct, we haven't really argued - I just wanted to point out
my views.

I think most people here, you and I included, are
> really, when you get right down to it, just trying to enjoy our
> classical heritage. Talk of land, fundraising for lost libraries,
> all this other stuff notwithstanding, we want to have fun, right?
> Read my comments below in this light.

And mine also.

> His own unhappiness within NR is good reason that he leave. SVR
> was founded to be an alternative for people unhappy with Nova Roma.

I myself am a member of SVR, and happily proclaim it in this forum.
I am also a member of NR, and happily proclaim that fact also. I am
not unhappy with NR by any means; in fact, I am slowly becoming more
active. SVR is not for people dissatisfied with NR. It is for
Romans. The people it attracts are therefore similar to those that
NR attracts.

>Unable to find happiness within
> SVR, he feels it necessary to disrupt another group who wish to do
> the same within their own organization. Misery indeed loves
> company! Unable to be happy himself, he must attempt to sow
> unhappiness here.

I don't see how he is sowing unhappiness - he is having a discussion
with you. If he advocates something that you dislike, that is not
intending to sow unhappiness.

> Britannicus, can you please explain why any group should welcome
with
> open arms those who seek to wreck it?

It is my opinion that Limitanus does not understand the
word "secession" as severely as we see it. After all, he has never
said he wanted to rip NR asunder. Indeed, he has used historical
examples where the word "secession" did not seem quite right.

> The fact that he is able to post his views is a sure sign that he
> is *not* being censored or "suppressed", nor has he ever been. I
> simply feel that any organization has the right to regulate, even
> expel, those disruptive elements who have *openly advocated* it's
> destruction, as he has done.

See above. I remember a time when the FBI were apparently monitoring
this list because of the discussions on land. That seems just as
bizarre to me. Perhaps they didn't understand what we were talking
about.

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

Subject:	Slight correction Re: [novaroma] Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:38:05 -0800

> > The fact that he is able to post his views is a sure sign that he
> > is *not* being censored or "suppressed", nor has he ever been. I
> > simply feel that any organization has the right to regulate, even
> > expel, those disruptive elements who have *openly advocated* it's
> > destruction, as he has done.
>
> See above. I remember a time when the FBI were apparently monitoring
> this list because of the discussions on land. That seems just as
> bizarre to me. Perhaps they didn't understand what we were talking
> about.

Avete Plebian Aedile Curio Britannicus et al

That is not correct, the FBI was not monitoring us because of the
possibility of any purchase of Land. It was because of some other
statements being made by some of our ex-citizens. We need to be
careful about the facts we state so that we don't create rumors or other
inaccuracies. Please research your conclusions before you post them.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Days: Where and when?
From:	"Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus" <ahenobarbus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:50:44 -0800

Salvete Quirites,
I only found out about the ML a month and a half ago, so I missed out,
forgive this request if it seems repetitive. Exactly where and when are
Roman Days? I know it's early June, Maryland, but I need specifics, and is
there a schedule of events posted online? Is anybody going to bring video
equipment to document this great public festival for future generations of
Nova Romans?
I've gotta have an excuse to wear my new tunic:

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Secession from NR?
From:	"darkling_crawler" <hendrik.meuleman@pi.be>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:14:31 -0000

Salvete Curio et Nerva,

(snipped)

> Britannicus, can you please explain why any group should welcome
with
> open arms those who seek to wreck it? Tell me, how would SVR feel
if
> someone from Nova Roma joined it and then advocated it's
dissolution,
> accused it's elected magistrates of all sorts of unsavory things,
> said rending it apart piece by piece is a good idea?
>

Indeed, such a person would be moderated. The key difference is, that
NR presents itself as both an organisation and a micronation. From
organisational point of view, it's normal to disallow disruption that
can harm the organisation. From national point of view: look at many
modern countries in the west; protest and defamatory attacks on its
leadership are usual business and go by unpunished (as they should).
In that aspect, I think NR might have a decision to make here,
whether they want to be more like an organisation, or more like a
nation.

Valete bene,
Solaris

Subject:	[novaroma] MEGALESIA AWARD -1 day
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:44:16 +0200

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

MEGALESIA CULTURAL AWARD
1st Edition
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOMORROW is the deadline of the Megalesia Cultural Award is

The M.C.A. is the literary Award of Nova Roman literary texts dedicated to
Magna Mater, produced by the Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
and me, Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus, Franciscus Apulus Caesar,
member of the Cohors Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus.

The topics of the works must be about Ludi Megalesia, Cybele (Magna Mater),
Dea Fortuna, agricolture and farm contents, Punic Wars and battles.
All citizens, singles or groups, of Nova Roma can participate sending their
own novel, poem, drama tragedy, comedy, etc. The contributed work must be
in English, with a maximum of 500 words.

In this moment there are 3 wonderful works running in the Award. They are:
- DE BELLO NOVA ROMANO by Marcus Octavius Solaris
- ON THE MEGALESIA by Vopisca Iulia Cocceia
- A TRAGIC TALE by Marcus Minucius Audens

I repeat:
- The DEADLINE (not shouting) to send your work is tomorrow, April 3, 2002
(2755
a.u.c.), by e-mail to me,
sacro_barese_impero@libero.it
[Franciscus Apulus Caesar]

with the subject "Megalesia C.A." and Nova Roman name(-s), real
name(-s), Nova Roman Provincia (-e), age(-s) and e-mail address(-s) of each
participant.

Please send me your works by e-mail privatly! All the works will published
in Megalesia webpages in the Cohors Aedilis website.

- INFORMATIONS -
Regulations c/o Cohors Aedilis - Section Ludi
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/megalesia/mca.htm
Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
tjalens.h@telia.com
Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus, Franciscus Apulus Caesar
sacro_barese_impero@libero.it

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valete et Bonam Fortunam

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Cohors Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus -
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis
Web Nova Roman Experiments - http://lab.novaroma.org/wnre

Subject:	[novaroma] Opening of the inscriptions (3 days)
From:	"artabrus" <Piteas@inicia.es>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:48:02 -0000

The aedilis curule Caeso Fabius Quintilianus announces the opening of
the inscriptions for the races of the Megalesia Ludi Circenses
(maximum 32 players).

Every player have to send our subscription to piteas@jazzfiesta.com
[Gnaeus Salix Galaicus et Franciscus Apulus Caesar] with the
subject "Ludi Circenses", within the following informations:

* His/her name in Nova Roma
* The name of his/her driver
* The name of his/her chariot
* His/her number of tactics:
1. To hurry in the last laps
2. To pass the curves closely the "spina" of the
circus.
3. To support a constant pace
4. To lash the rivals
* The name of his/her "factio" or team: Praesina (green), russata
(red), veneta (blue) or albata (white)

2) The subscriptions must be sent before April 5, h. 8:00 PM (time of
Rome):
3) Every player only will send one chariot.

Salix Galaicus
princeps curiae hispanae
scriba aedilis curulis

Subject:	[novaroma] Tax "Winners"
From:	"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:44:24 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Hahahahahah! The competitveness of the human species never ceases to
amaze me ;-O. By the way, I believe the individual paying the most
in taxes was Consul Marcus Octavius Germanicus. Not only did he pay
twice for himself, testing our system, he also paid for several
others who were unable to pay themselves. An example of true
Romanness!

As to a breakdown by gens, the information is available, but might be
considered by some Paters or Maters to be personal to the gens. I
will state the following gens had more than one taxpayer:

Ambrosia
Antonia
Arminia
Bianchia
Cassia
Claudia
Cornelian Empire
Didia Gemina
Equitia
Fabia
Flacca
Flavia
Gladia
Iulia
Iunia
Labieni
Marcia
Maria
Mauricia
Minicia
Octavia
Quintia
Salicia
Scipiade
Sentia
Titinia
Tullia
Ulleria
Vedia

If any Pater or Mater wants the detail on their gens just e-mail me
and I will provide it. Also, if no Pater or Mater objects, I will
post the actual numbers at a later date.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Quaestor

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The fate of famed artifacts...
From:	Scipio Apollonius <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:08:14 -0800 (PST)

Salve,

I will try to send this picture before the end of the
week.

Vale.

Sextus Apollonius Scipio

--- "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
wrote:
> Salve!
>
> Thank you for the reply - would it be possible to
> email a copy of the
> picture? I would appreciate it very much!
>
> Vale,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scipio Apollonius
> [mailto:scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 4:42 AM
> To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: The fate of famed
> artifacts...
>
> Salve,
>
> I have found in the Roma-rcheologia (italian
> version)
> a picture of an altar of victory (basamento della
> Vittoria, Musei Capitolini)
> I have a picture of it. Although, I am quite sure
> that
> several of such altars did exist, I do not know if
> this one is the one you mentionned.
> I guess this one was dedicated for the victory of
> Marius over Jugurta.
>
> Salve,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>
> --- deciusiunius <bcatfd@together.net> wrote:
> > --- In novaroma@y..., "C. Minucius Hadrianus"
> > <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> > > Salvete,
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> >
> > > I am curious is there any information regarding
> > the fate of the
> > >Altar of Victory, the Palladium or the Sibylline
> > Books? Were they
> > >lost or destroyed?
> >
> > The fate of the first two is unknown though one
> can
> > speculate, the
> > last was mostly destroyed, though fragments have
> > survived into the
> > present day.
> >
> > In the 4th Century the Altar of Victory was
> removed
> > from and put back
> > into the Senate several times until its likely
> final
> > removal in 394
> > during the reign of Theodosius. What happened to
> it
> > after that is a
> > mystery from what I have been able to determine.
> At
> > first it was
> > probably put into storage in or near the senate
> > curia. Likely it
> > remained there for a number of years, even decades
> > until it appeared
> > certain it was not going to be returned to its
> place
> > of honor in the
> > senate. I have 3 theories as to what happened to
> it
> > at that point: 1.
> > it may have been destroyed at the instigation of
> > some overzealous
> > Christian senators or officials, since the Ara
> > Victoriae represented,
> > more than any other item, pagan Rome personified;
> 2.
> > It may have
> > been moved to the private residence of one of
> > remaining members of
> > the pagan senatorial aristocracy or a sympathetic
> > Christian senator
> > who wished to save it for the future and love of
> art
> > and history.
> > From there it may have been buried for posterity,
> > fell into ruin
> > through years of neglect or turned into building
> > material by the
> > family's descendants who did not appreciate what
> was
> > in their
> > possession ; 3. Or it may have stayed in senate
> > storage until being
> > taken out and broken into pieces for building
> > material for a wall or
> > new structure, as many ancient artifacts and
> > buildings were that were
> > no longer wanted.
> >
> > Which scenario is most likely? Least likely I
> think
> > is option 1. The
> > Christians of Rome did not display the
> > destructiveness of those
> > elsewhere, such as in Alexandria. Neglect and
> > barbarians did more
> > damage than religious zealots. Still, it is a
> > possibiltity. I am a
> > romantic and like to think option two is what
> > happened, that some
> > pagan or Christian senatorial family saved the Ara
> > Victoriae on their
> > property and that eventually it was buried to
> > preserve it or protect
> > it. I am optimistic and hope that it will be found
> > intact. However,
> > realistically I am just as inclined to go with
> > option 3, that it was
> > taken out and used for building material for a new
> > structure, or even
> > for road material. If this is the case then it is
> > possible that the
> > pieces will be found through archelogical
> excavation
> > and pieced
> > together, as has happened with some artifacts.
> This
> > is all
> > speculation, however.
> >
> > I am less versed as to what happened to the
> > Palladium. Due to its
> > size it could easily have been destroyed or
> > overlooked. I have heard
> > that possibly Constantine had it moved to
> > Constantinople when he
> > founded that city. If it was moved there and if it
> > survived the
> > iconoclasm of the 7th and 8th centuries, it is not
> > likely to have
> > survived the destructiveness of the Turks in 1453.
>
> >
> >
> > As for the Sibylline books, the books consulted in
> > Rome, stored in a
> > temple on the Palatine as I recall, were destroyed
> > in the late
> > 4th/early 5th century. Some 14 books of Sibylline
> > prediction survive,
> > mixed with Christian interpretations, predictions
> > and additions.
> > Christian and older pagan material is mixed
> together
> > in these books.
> > Hopefully someone else can shed more light on
> these
> > for you as I am
> > not as familair with them.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Decius Iunius Palladius,
> > Senator Consularis
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tax "Winners"
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:29:06 -0500 (EST)

Quaestor Laenus;

Let it be noted that I object to the publishing of the number of tax
payers per gens. My reasoning is that there are certain Gens who have
had a "more than average" opportunity to build thier numbers. I think
it unfair and unnecesarily competative to list the numbers.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Paterfamilius -- Gens Minucia

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Days: Where and when?
From:	Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:34:10 -0800 (PST)

I believe the June Roman Days is June 6ish Whatever
weekend that is. The Ohio Roman Days will be
September 28.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tax "Winners"
From:	"g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:55:37 -0000

Ave!

Good point. So be it.

Laenas

--- In novaroma@y..., MarcusAudens@w... wrote:
> Quaestor Laenus;
>
> Let it be noted that I object to the publishing of the number of tax
> payers per gens. My reasoning is that there are certain Gens who
have
> had a "more than average" opportunity to build thier numbers. I
think
> it unfair and unnecesarily competative to list the numbers.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
> Paterfamilius -- Gens Minucia

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tax "Winners"
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:27 -0800

Avete Omnes,

I have no problem with the publishing of the breakdown per Gens. For those of us who have a "more than average" opportunity to build their gentes I take pride in the participation and involvement of each individual within the gens Cornelia and within Nova Roma. As I stated yesterday, I am not the only Cornelian. It takes each individual member to weave the tapestry that is the Gens (family) Cornelia. And I am very pleased with the turnout of the gens Cornelia. Family pride is something each of us should have no matter what Gens we chose to be in, I believe this was something that the ancients had in the family they were born into.

Very Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul et Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
----- Original Message -----
From: MarcusAudens@webtv.net
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Tax "Winners"


Quaestor Laenus;

Let it be noted that I object to the publishing of the number of tax
payers per gens. My reasoning is that there are certain Gens who have
had a "more than average" opportunity to build thier numbers. I think
it unfair and unnecesarily competative to list the numbers.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Paterfamilius -- Gens Minucia

Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1891 Roman Days/ gens tax payers
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@verizon.net>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:04:46 -0500

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus" <ahenobarbus@hotmail.com>
Subject: Roman Days: Where and when?


Salvete Quirites,
I only found out about the ML a month and a half ago, so I missed out,
forgive this request if it seems repetitive. Exactly where and when are
Roman Days? I know it's early June, Maryland, but I need specifics, and is
there a schedule of events posted online? Is anybody going to bring video
equipment to document this great public festival for future generations of
Nova Romans?

I've gotta have an excuse to wear my new tunic:


L Equitius: ROMAN DAYS, SPONSORED By Legio XX (Maryland USA) [of which I am
a proud member] http://www.larp.com/legioxx/index.html since 1998, it is
held on the second weekend of June. http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rdays.html

June 8-9, 2002 --ROMAN DAYS, Marietta Mansion: 5626 Bell Station Rd., Glenn
Dale, MD 20769. 301-464-5291. The Site Manager is Susan Wolfe. From
I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450 East, go 4 miles,
turn left on Rt. 193, then left onto Bell Station Rd. and left again into
Marietta. For Marching Through Time, only handicapped parking is permitted
on site (due to lack of space), public parking being available at the
recreation just beyond Bell Station Rd. Follow the signs and then catch the
shuttle vans back to the site.

I hope to see many of you there. Roman Days has gotten better every year!

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:44:24 -0000
From: "g_popillius_laenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Tax "Winners"

Salvete Omnes,

Hahahahahah! The competitveness of the human species never ceases to
amaze me ;-O. By the way, I believe the individual paying the most
in taxes was Consul Marcus Octavius Germanicus. Not only did he pay
twice for himself, testing our system, he also paid for several
others who were unable to pay themselves. An example of true
Romanness!

As to a breakdown by gens, the information is available, but might be
considered by some Paters or Maters to be personal to the gens. I
will state the following gens had more than one taxpayer:

Ambrosia
Antonia
Arminia
Bianchia
Cassia
Claudia
Cornelian Empire
Didia Gemina
Equitia
etc..

If any Pater or Mater wants the detail on their gens just e-mail me
and I will provide it. Also, if no Pater or Mater objects, I will
post the actual numbers at a later date.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Quaestor

Thank you Quaestor Laenas!

I had asked, as Censor, to be informed of those Matres et Patres who have
paid tax.
I have held that my proposal to 'tax/register' Gens yearly would help solve
more than one issue, Revenue and Census. Maybe my idea will be given
consideration someday, just like my idea to settle the language issue, which
I introduced in the first months of Nova Roma, was finally adopted.

Bene omnibus nobis

Subject:	Slight correction Re: [novaroma] Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for List Moderation}
From:	"curiobritannicus" <marcusaemiliusscaurus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 18:20:10 -0000

Salve Consul Sulla,

> That is not correct, the FBI was not monitoring us because of the
> possibility of any purchase of Land. It was because of some other
> statements being made by some of our ex-citizens. We need to be
> careful about the facts we state so that we don't create rumors or
other
> inaccuracies. Please research your conclusions before you post
them.

My thanks for pointing this out. I had not researched the time at
all, because I was there, so I was just relating them as I remembered
them. Clearly I had misunderstood the happenings at the time, so I
thank you for clearing this up.

Bene vale,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

Subject:	[novaroma] hunnic tribes
From:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?David_S=E1nchez?= <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:31:04 -0600

Salvete Romani,

Traditionally <hunni> have been identified with that people that Chinese sources call <xiong-nu> (if we take into account Chinese pronunciation the resemblance is very great indeed). About <xiong-nu> I have found that the first explicit reference is about 215 BC when the chinese general Meng Tian attacked <xiong-nu> in Mongolia (Prior to these date are mentioned that nomadic peoples proceeding of North-Central Asia, and Mongolia repeatedly attacked China).

The first centralized empire of the <xiong-nu> was stablished one year later of the dead of the first emperor (Shi Huang Di), in 209 BC, under an shayun (a kind of king) named Maodun. Xiong-nu were stablished for century North-West of China. But, what proofs have we got that hunnic people are precisely these <xiong-nu> (appart from the resemblances of names and style of life)?

(a) These xiong-nu seemed to be experiencing an expansion about AD 310 to AD 400, the same dates of the Hunnic expansion in Europe (AD 360 - AD 440). The previous unified xiong-nu empire occupy all the lands from Mongolia, North-Wester of China and ... North-Central Asia(?). It seems to me that the presence of Rugila (the father or the uncle of Atila) in Europe is a result of the spreading of these altaic peoples in North-Asia.

(b) LINGUISTICAL: Actual linguistic evidence shows that Central Asia and North-Western China (and Mongolia) have been inhabited by peoples of three families: uralic, altaic and iranian. Clearly hunnic names are certainly not iranian, and since it must be altaic or uralic. <xiong-nu> spoke an altaic language. We know some of the descendant of the Hunnic kingdom such as the <on-ogur> (turkish: 'ten tribes') that stablished themselves at the moder Hungary (< On-ogur) spoke also an altaic language.

The historical evidences shows that is highly probable that <hunni> were the same people that chinese <xiong-nu>, and thus it were originary of the regions of Mongolian or North-West of the actual China. Also is my opinion is that Hunnic were an r-turkic people (with a language related to modern Chuvash, modern turkis is a z-turkic language), but within hunnic were also uralic peoples such as magyars (hungarians).

What do you think about the identification of <hunni> and <xiong-nu>?

Cl. Sl. Davianus
=================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae
Senator ac Rector SVR

_____________________
P.D.: South Central Asia (at least Afghanistan and actual Turkestan) wa inhabited by people of Iranian origin as far as AD 600 (By these reason I believe Huns were not from these concrete region. From North Central Asia we have not data until around AD 500, when the first turkic empire was stablished.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] On Latin pronounciation
From:	"Cl. Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:29 -0600

Salvete cives ac salvete latinistae,

Only a few remmarks about Latin pronunciation:

(1) About aspirated stops <ph, ch, th>. It seems that really at an earlier stages of Latin they have a distinctive sound (virtually identic to that of Classical Greek or Etruscan). We must take into account not only greek influences but also etruscan influence on Latin that was great initially. Etruscan have distinctive sounds /ph, ch, th/ in phonological contrast with /p, c, t/, so we can expect that Latin originally also made these distinctions. Indeed we have Latin words such as <pulcher> that no longer is a greek or etruscan loanword that spelled in this form seems to have been uttered /pulkher/ and not /pulker/.

(2) Pervivence of /h/. About 200 BC, a poem of [Q. Lutiatius] Catullus make fun of a pedantic man called Arrius, that mistakenly pronounce <**hinsidiae> and <**chommodae> (the correct forms are naturally <indisidiae> 'insidious acts' and <commodae> 'appropriate') imiting the talk of upper classes. This seems that as far as 200 BC /ch/ and /h/ existed as separate phonemes (and sounds [k_h] and [h]!). Also /ph, ch, th/ sounded [p_h, k_h, t_h] in Classical Greek, but [f, x, ...] in Hellenistic Greek. Proto-romance (the hipothetical mother tonge of romanic languages, about AD 600) lacked aspirated stops and /h/.

(3) Nasals. /n/ as in modern romanic languages probabily have a sound like [N] = [h] (an "n" with elonged leg) in combinations like <sanguis> 'blood' or <angustiae> 'narrowness'. But /m, n/ probabily also sounded different in <amphitrio, infimus> (labiodental nasal sound) ... and Seneca also spell <inpossibilis> instead of <impossibilis>, that is phonologically we have /inposibilis/ but phonetically [imposibilis], etc...

(4) Sibilant /s/. Like that of English, and French ... not that like that of Spanish, Finnish or Hebrew.

(5) A different sound for <q>. At an earlier stage <q> has a different sound of /k/. The are two reasons for this assertion. First, <q> shows different correspondences with another indoeuropean languages: Latin <qu> = English <wh> = Germanic <*xw>: latin <quod> = english <what> = proto-germanic <*xwat> = norwegian <hwat>, latin <cur> < old latin <quur> = English <why>, latin <cum> < old latin <quum> = english <when>, etc. Secondly latin spelling seems to be very economic and frequently not distinguish different sound like [u, v] or originally [c, g] when only <c> was used for both sounds. If latin has <q, c> is because these where different sounds. Latin /q/ derives from labio-velar indoeuropean /*kw/ = [k_w] a different sound of [kw] (the only language which I has heard with a labio-velar is modern aztec in with is spelled <uc, cu> or <qu>).

(6). Alveolar trill [rr] and tap [r]. I am not sure if you are saying that latin only contained a type or r-sound or two. Certainly Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan and Occitanian (languages all that I have heard extensively) have two types of r-sound: type 1 <curro> 'I run' / type 2 <curo> 'I take care of')-

(7) Vowels. Classical Latin has a system of 10 vowels /a, a:, e, e:, i, i:, o, o:, u, u:/ all equal in quality as those of Spanish and Portuguese (Italian has more vowel qualities, and evidently French also has more vowels). Proto-romance has a system of nine short vowels /i, î, e, ê, a, ô, o, û, u/ (/î/ as English /ship/ in oposition to /sheep/. Italian and Catalan have /i, e, ê, a, ô, o, u/.


Cl. Salix Davianus
================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] In deffense of Limitanus
From:	"Cl. Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:49:25 -0600

Salvete honored cives ac salve tu Nerva,

<<Just because you disagree with Limitanus' views on secession and
resignation is no means to suggest that he should leave.>>

Limitanus is an extremely valuable member of NR. And his comments both about Roman related topics and Nova Roma actual situation are very interesting. I think about his roman related questions ans answers nobody has nothing to oppose.

About his perceptions of Nova Roma, his opions are very argumented, every citizen may to be accord with the views of Limitanus or to be in disaccord these views. But I think it is exagerated to judge the hapiness or unhapiness of a person within NR, Nerva. I think it is dangereous to make no distinction between criticism to the actual situation of NR and to be a perfidious traitor to the ideals of this honored Republic.

Certainly NR is a better place with Limitanus inside than without Limitanus, It werebe another pitiful losting if Limitanus would leave NR

Fl. Cl. Sl. Davianus Iul
=======================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae
Senator ac Rector Collegii Latini SVR



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: "Dead" List--I don't think so!!!!!
From:	"Cl. Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:00:07 -0600

Ave honorate Senator M Audens:

>>That still leaves your response to a Senior Consul, and pointing an NR Citizen outside the NR, without suggesting someone here who might show him the way around NR.<<

I know very well some of the cultural lists of NR (I participe in some of these lists), but also I think that the cultural lists of other net-based groups are interesting. The majority of NR Magistrates think about SVR that is "the competence", but I think there is no reason for this opinion.

SVR is another respectable group related to Roma topics, many citizens (and magistrates) of NR are participating in SVR and they view no contradiction in being citizen of NR and sodalis of SVR. I think that given the actual situations of NR and SVR, they are perfectly complementary and both are extremely interesting for any person interested in roman topics. I find highly recommendable to particpate in both associations because they are not excludent.

Cl. Sl. Davianus
=====================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae





----- Original Message -----
From: MarcusAudens@webtv.net
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: "Dead" List--I don't think so!!!!!


Tribune Davianus;

Okay, let's say that you didn't know about the other "cultural" Lists
which drain off most of the cultual material from the Main List. There
are certainly mentions of Sodalitas on the Website.

Let us say tht you did not know about the "vote" of the NR Citizens not
to diminish the Political Messages. There is always the archives!!!!

That still leaves your response to a Senior Consul, and pointing an NR
Citizen outside the NR, without suggesting someone here who might show
him the way around NR.

You are a Tribune!!! You were elected to that position to watch over
the Citizens of Nova Roma. Not to send them elsewhere.

Okay, we all make mistakes, so let's end it. From now on if you are not
sure, ask, or go to the archives. If you ask me I will find an answer
for you and get back to you. From now on, when the Senior Consul or any
other Senior Magistrate messages you, that Magistrate deserves your
respect, if not your agreement. Respect him publicly and disagree
privately. Everyone expects Tribunes to disagree, ( I disagree all the
time, and I am a Military Tribune!!!!!!!) but they are also expected to
respect those who hold office by virtue of the NR Citizen's vote.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	[novaroma] Feelings Nova Roma has Against SVR
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@bconnex.net>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:31:13 -0500

Salvete Tribunus Plebis Cl. Salix Davianus et cives,

SVR should not count on a kind response from the majority of our citizens if
they are advertising about a "better" organisation called SVR. We all must
face the reality that SVR is a competing organisation with Nova Roma. Sure,
SVR may not be out to create a new nation, but the same basic ideas and
ideals are still shared. It is no secret where the inspiration for the idea
of SVR came from. The only major difference between SVR and Nova Roma is
that it is run by people with slightly different political perspectives.
Although, just because these two organisations are competitive does not mean
we cannot have friendly relations.

Still, we must remember that many of the leaders of SVR are discontent past
Nova Roma citizens. Some of these past citizens have flamed and publicly
insulted our most prestigious magistrates. You cannot expect anything else
from some of our leaders than cold feelings towards SVR, if just for this
one reason.

I however do not share the same feelings some Nova Romans have towards SVR.
I can fully understand them, but I am not part of them. I agree that SVR and
Nova Roma can work together, and that a citizen should enjoy membership to
both organisations without being criticised. Sadly, I don't see this
happening for sometime. SVR was founded as a organisation for discontent
Nova Romans. Some of these past Nova Romans acted inappropriately on this
very list, and it will take time for these events to fade from the memories
of some citizens.

The recent discussion is proof of what I have stated. We must wipe clean the
board and look at SVR with a fresh perspective if we are to work together.

Valete,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--




>Cl. Salix Davianus at davius_sanctex@terra.es wrote:
>
> I know very well some of the cultural lists of NR (I participe in some of
> these lists), but also I think that the cultural lists of other net-based
> groups are interesting. The majority of NR Magistrates think about SVR that is
> "the competence", but I think there is no reason for this opinion.
>
> SVR is another respectable group related to Roma topics, many citizens (and
> magistrates) of NR are participating in SVR and they view no contradiction in
> being citizen of NR and sodalis of SVR. I think that given the actual
> situations of NR and SVR, they are perfectly complementary and both are
> extremely interesting for any person interested in roman topics. I find highly
> recommendable to particpate in both associations because they are not
> excludent.
>
> Cl. Sl. Davianus
> =====================
> Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
> Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Days: Where and when?
From:	"g_draudrson" <g_draudrson@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:14:11 -0000

--- In novaroma@y..., "Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus"
<ahenobarbus@h...> wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites,
> I only found out about the ML a month and a half ago, so I missed
out,
> forgive this request if it seems repetitive. Exactly where and
when are
> Roman Days? I know it's early June, Maryland, but I need
specifics, and is
> there a schedule of events posted online? Is anybody going to bring
video
> equipment to document this great public festival for future
generations of
> Nova Romans?
> I've gotta have an excuse to wear my new tunic:

Try contacting Matt Amt(Quintus) via the Lego XX page at
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/ . I'm on their mailing list and have
herd nothing specific other then its June 8-9. I will probably be
out one day as a modern. I may come out in Civilian kit if I get my
stuff made.


Valete,
Gaius Lusorius Peregrinus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Feelings Nova Roma has Against SVR
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:57 -0800

Avete Omnes,

You are totally correct Aedile Amulius Claudius, it will take alot of time to heal the breeches that have been sown on both sides. I am certain it will happen sometime in the future, but dont expect miracles in the immediate future.

Personally I do not have a problem of a citizen holding both citizenships. However my view tends to change when we have magistrates who are holding offices in both the SVR and Nova Roma. Its a conflict of interest, in my personal opinion.

Since Nova Roma has been around there have been at least 4 other Roman type micronations. All of them have shutdown. They have all learned how difficult it is to keep a micronation together. The SVR has earned some respect from me for being able to stay around as long as it has. They say that the best compliement one can receive is imitation and that is how I view the SVR.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 12:31 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Feelings Nova Roma has Against SVR



Salvete Tribunus Plebis Cl. Salix Davianus et cives,

SVR should not count on a kind response from the majority of our citizens if
they are advertising about a "better" organisation called SVR. We all must
face the reality that SVR is a competing organisation with Nova Roma. Sure,
SVR may not be out to create a new nation, but the same basic ideas and
ideals are still shared. It is no secret where the inspiration for the idea
of SVR came from. The only major difference between SVR and Nova Roma is
that it is run by people with slightly different political perspectives.
Although, just because these two organisations are competitive does not mean
we cannot have friendly relations.

Still, we must remember that many of the leaders of SVR are discontent past
Nova Roma citizens. Some of these past citizens have flamed and publicly
insulted our most prestigious magistrates. You cannot expect anything else
from some of our leaders than cold feelings towards SVR, if just for this
one reason.

I however do not share the same feelings some Nova Romans have towards SVR.
I can fully understand them, but I am not part of them. I agree that SVR and
Nova Roma can work together, and that a citizen should enjoy membership to
both organisations without being criticised. Sadly, I don't see this
happening for sometime. SVR was founded as a organisation for discontent
Nova Romans. Some of these past Nova Romans acted inappropriately on this
very list, and it will take time for these events to fade from the memories
of some citizens.

The recent discussion is proof of what I have stated. We must wipe clean the
board and look at SVR with a fresh perspective if we are to work together.

Valete,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--




>Cl. Salix Davianus at davius_sanctex@terra.es wrote:
>
> I know very well some of the cultural lists of NR (I participe in some of
> these lists), but also I think that the cultural lists of other net-based
> groups are interesting. The majority of NR Magistrates think about SVR that is
> "the competence", but I think there is no reason for this opinion.
>
> SVR is another respectable group related to Roma topics, many citizens (and
> magistrates) of NR are participating in SVR and they view no contradiction in
> being citizen of NR and sodalis of SVR. I think that given the actual
> situations of NR and SVR, they are perfectly complementary and both are
> extremely interesting for any person interested in roman topics. I find highly
> recommendable to particpate in both associations because they are not
> excludent.
>
> Cl. Sl. Davianus
> =====================
> Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
> Legatus Internis Rebus Hispaniae

Subject:	[novaroma] second anniversary as novaroman citizen
From:	"luciuspompeius" <danielovi@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:35:08 -0000

Salvete omnes cives novaromani
Yesterday was my second anniversary as novaroman citizen. During this
time I've found many friends here and also many kind people who
offered me their help at this hard time. I want to express my most
sincere gratitude to all of them.
I'll finish this message by saying that I do feel very glad for
belonging to this wonderful micronation.
Maximas gratias omnibus ago
Habeatis fortunam optimam
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis Argentinæ

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] second anniversary as novaroman citizen
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:37:55 -0800

Ave Propraetor,

Congrats...I remember that day! <g>

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: luciuspompeius
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] second anniversary as novaroman citizen


Salvete omnes cives novaromani
Yesterday was my second anniversary as novaroman citizen. During this
time I've found many friends here and also many kind people who
offered me their help at this hard time. I want to express my most
sincere gratitude to all of them.
I'll finish this message by saying that I do feel very glad for
belonging to this wonderful micronation.
Maximas gratias omnibus ago
Habeatis fortunam optimam
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis Argentinæ

Subject:	[novaroma] Peace!
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:47 -0500 (EST)

Honored Consuls, Magistrates, Senators and Citizens of Nova Roma;

As some of you may have been aware, The Honored Junior Consul Lucius
Cornelius Sulla Felix and I have had a slight disagreement for some
time. I am pleased to announce that we have jointly decided to end that
diagreement suddenly and finally, since it really serves no great
purpose, and together to embark on a closer and more understanding
basis.

We got together and cussed each other out for a couple of messages, and
then settled down to our real base problems. We have exchanged
assurances which were mutually agreeable, and have agreed to begin again
with clean slates, and nothing left over from before.

For myself, I am pleased to be able to make this announcement, as it
frees me of a nagging thought which has come to the fore more and more
often of late that I was not being completely fair. We have agreed that
our political views are owr own, but that our Dignity and Honor belong
to Nova Roma as long as we wear the Toga of a Magisrate, or sit on a
marble bench in the Senate.

Further we have pledged to each other that everyone makes mistakes,
everyone is on the road to getting better, and all that is needed for
friendship is honesty and straightforward speech.

I am very pleased to make this anouncement and I pledge to the Honored
Consul my best assurances, as he has to me.

Very Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Secession from NR? {Was Re:Proposal for List
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	02 Apr 2002 17:10:24 -0300

On Mon, 2002-04-01 at 22:59, MarcusAudens@webtv.net wrote:
> Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus;
>
> Thank you for your very kind words. My view is that Limitanus and I
> disgree about the language question on the Main List. His point is (I
> believe) that anyone should have the right to post to the Main List in
> whatever language that they wish, with little or no moderation.
>
> My views are that as a Senator and Magistrate, I have the right and
> responsibilty to be able to understand what those citizens, who have
> elected me from the world over, have to say. This argument has never
> been satisfactorally addressed from his view.
>

I thought I did, so here it comes again:
I agree with your right and duty to hear and understand what the
citizens are thinking/saying.

We only disagree on the best way for you to be able to do exactly this.

With the Vedian list policy everything that a citizen effectively says
is understood by you. Fine.
But there are many citizens that, because of the language policy don't
express themselfs at all on this list, some of them do it on the
provincial lists and you will have to wait for the governors to make
at best a synthesis of what has been talked about.

With the policy I advocate: first publish in any language, then
translate to the language of the majority of the people and the majority
of the Senate (English today, but it could be another one in the
future),
you would lose less opinions of non-english speaking in that way.

> He wants the Latin Language to be the diplomatic and commercial language
> on the Main List, and I agree, except that he wants that to happen
> immediately, and I think that it will take time to raise the ability of
> the majority of Nova Romans to that level; a significant length of time
> to get to that point. I have offeredd to begin learning Latin myself,
> (not my idea of a fun way to spend my time) to show my support for that
> view, but he has not even responded to the offer.

I think the mail-list should be run in any language, with a preference
to the one that is most intelligible: today english, in the future
hopefully latin. Again we agree. Just don't force anything on the
citizens.

For the non-response, this is untrue I proposed you to participate in
the KDE project, every hand is welcome from the latin professor to the
beginner, every one can help, and nothing is more profitable as a
thinktank, both for the project and for the people that participates.
Learning alone is usually quite dull, working together and checking up
in youir grammar and vocabulary what we are doing step by step would be
great for you and for us all. Questions are refreshing.
Perhaps you thought this was an ironic proposition, it was not.


> Add to that, English
> (whether you like the U.S., England, Ireland, Canada, and Australia or
> not) is the defacto diplomatic / commercial language in the world of
> this age, just as Greek once was, and so is likely to be the language
> best understood by the greatest number of people. This has been
> explained on several occasions with no apparent acceptance, hich is
> strange indeed from an educated person.

I think you did not get my point: by putting the word "english" in our
laws, we fix things in way that is appropriate today, but not
necesarelly in the future, and worse not appropriate in the future we
both expect with latin as first language.
Writing the law with "language of the majority of citizens" would mean
today the same thing today, would be internally related to NR and not to
foreign countries, and would give a law that can stand if the our
esperances come true and latin becomes the "language of the majority of
citizens".

> His argument is that nobody
> ever made Latin speakers also write in Greek translations, which may
> well be true, but what is also true is that if you couldn't do business
> in Greek you didn't do business.

Not mine, I don't remember who wrote this but it was not me.

I have to run, I will answer the rest of this messsage from home a
little later,

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Further, the Magistrates, Senatos,
> ProConsuls and ProPraetors are expected to hear the views, requests,
> ideas, comments,and questions of the Citizens today, something not
> really expected in the ancient age of Rome. I doubt there was the
> concern for personal feelings in that time that we try to extend here to
> our citizens.
>
> We have tried to use Internet translations, but those are not good
> enough. We have suggested language lists (some of which are in use) but
> they are not good enough either, even though I suspect that something of
> this nature was engaged in by Latin speakers in thier own local
> communities instead of agonizing over Greek.
>
> I have tried to look at his side of the argument, but there does not
> seem to be any attempt to return the effort. In addition, he has called
> into question my culture and my nation which is beyond my ability to
> ignore. He has begun the tired diatribe of Fascist, Tyranny, and
> Oligarchy, which as he well knows has very bad connotations both in Nova
> Roma, because of previous demogogues who sought to reshape Nova Roma in
> thier own image, and in the world at large. If he does not know, then I
> refer him to the not too far distant archives. I am not concerned with
> his personal views of myself, but I am very concerned with his apparent
> accusations against the government of Nova Roma, the Senate of Nova
> Roma, and the collective Magistrates of Nova Roma, as well as the doubt
> that such words cast on the judgement of Nova Roman Citizens for whom I
> have a very great respect, as theirs is the hardest task of all-----to
> select effective Magistrates Annually having only unsupported words and
> previous deeds from which to judge.
>
> Many people have attempted to explain the obvious to him, but he has
> rejected all such, and has chosen steadily to widen the argument, rather
> than to seek a way to come to some determination or way around the
> problem of a more immediate nature. For my part, I would think that if
> such an organization were founded in Spain, let us say, and it was
> intended that it be a world-wide organization that the decision would
> still be to use English since it is the most widely spoken language in
> the world (with Spanish a close second) not just because it is my
> language. I suspect also that were such a decision made by the Spanish,
> Danish, or Chekoslovakians, or in fact any other nation, the argumnt
> would not be in any way, so contentious. I hve exhausted my arguments
> and my alternatives, and would certainly appreciate any fresh or new
> ideas, beyond "my way or no way!!!"
>
> The other aspect is that when we have in the past, allowed various
> languages used without translations on the Main List, there have been
> those who have taken advantage of that situation to E-Mail foul
> language, and insults to the Main List in a language which was not
> translated. He has complained bitterly about moderation, but during
> mine and Q. Fabius Maximus' consulship the attempt was made to leave the
> Main List unmoderated, until finally the appeal from the Citizens of
> Nova Roma to bring moderation back again grew so great, that the Consuls
> were required to bow to thier wishes. Some of the comments from this
> gentleman, has indeed indicated the continued need for that moderation.
>
> My purpose in this long post is to bring some sort of sense out of this
> argument, with some accomodation to the needs of both sides of the
> argument, both in the long and short term, without widening the argument
> into insulting the cultures, religions, nations, and purpose of Nova
> Roma or her citizens. I am willing to consider such even at this late
> date, but for the reasons previously mentioned I am not willing to give
> up those responsibilities placed upon me by the Citizens of Nova Roma,
> nor would I suppose any Magistrate, Senator, ProConsul, or Propraetor
> would be so inclined in his or her turn to do so.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] SVR and secession
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:33:01 -0000

Salvete,

I think the existence of SVR is basically a good thing. And yes, it
was founded, at least in part, as an alternative for those unhappy
with Nova Roma. This does not mean of course that one cannot be in
both, though I share Sulla's misgivings about magistrates doing that.

With this in mind, consider this analogy. There are two
restaurants side by side. One serves Indian cuisine, which I dislike,
and the other is a steak house, which I enjoy. How would my time be
better spent? Should I dine in the restaurant congennial to me and
my taste, or should I sit in the Indian restaurant complaining about
the rotten food, demanding the menu be changed to suit me, accusing
the management of fascistic behavior for not acceding to my demands,
advocating that the other diners and employees 'secede', and
basically making an unpleasant atmosphere for all?

I said SVR is a good thing, and this is why. Now that SVR is in
existence, there is *no reason* for the chronically discontent to
remain here and sow further discord. Those who advocate secession
and those who perpetually gripe about "repression", and non
existent "censorship" and "oligarchy" have a place they can go,
founded by like-minded individuals.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Peace!
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@bconnex.net>
Date:	Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:57:45 -0500

Salvete Marcus Minucius Audens et Lucius Cornelius Sulla

I am glad to read this. It is quite refreshing after all the negative
messages to read something positive. Congratulations on ending your conflict
and may it remain in the past. Nova Roma is always better off if our
magistrates remain on friendly terms.

Valete,

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Curule Aedile of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Provincia Legatus Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Retarius Officium Gens Claudia

Canada Orientalis Website:
www25.brinkster.com/canorien/

Gens Claudia Website:
www27.brinkster.com/gensclaudia/
--

> Marcus Minucius Audens at jmath669642reng@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Honored Consuls, Magistrates, Senators and Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> As some of you may have been aware, The Honored Junior Consul Lucius
> Cornelius Sulla Felix and I have had a slight disagreement for some
> time. I am pleased to announce that we have jointly decided to end that
> diagreement suddenly and finally, since it really serves no great
> purpose, and together to embark on a closer and more understanding
> basis.
>
> We got together and cussed each other out for a couple of messages, and
> then settled down to our real base problems. We have exchanged
> assurances which were mutually agreeable, and have agreed to begin again
> with clean slates, and nothing left over from before.
>
> For myself, I am pleased to be able to make this announcement, as it
> frees me of a nagging thought which has come to the fore more and more
> often of late that I was not being completely fair. We have agreed that
> our political views are owr own, but that our Dignity and Honor belong
> to Nova Roma as long as we wear the Toga of a Magisrate, or sit on a
> marble bench in the Senate.
>
> Further we have pledged to each other that everyone makes mistakes,
> everyone is on the road to getting better, and all that is needed for
> friendship is honesty and straightforward speech.
>
> I am very pleased to make this anouncement and I pledge to the Honored
> Consul my best assurances, as he has to me.
>
> Very Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Paid By Province
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:57:10 -0300 (ART)

Salvete Quirites

--- Shane Evans <marcusafricanus@yahoo.com> escreveu:
> Everyone please take note that Lacus Magni has the
> most paid thus far. IT is because I threatened to
> send out the XIVth Legio to collect if necessary.
> ;)

MAIOR: Oh, i didt know that a provincial Legion would
be so utile! An interesting suggestion. :)

> Just some advice for my fellow Propraetors.
> Actually, I've emailed each of my citizens
> personally
> to remind and advice them to pay their taxes like
> good
> citizens. So hopefully our numbers will go up.
> Especially since half the taxes is returned to the
> Provincia for use with provincia events.
>
> M.Scipio Africanus
> Propraetor of Lacus Magni

Valete
M Arminius
Propraetor, Provincia Brasilia

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