| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points law |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:43 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- Terry Wilson <pudens656@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Avete,
>
> I have followed the debate on the now-withdrawn law
> with great interest. Because I have been a citizen
> for only a short time I have refrained from taking
> part in it, prefering to let wiser heads prevail.
> But when I read suggestions such as that put forth
> by Q. Fabius Maximus I regret that I did not
> participate while my opinion could have accomplished
> some good.
>
> The noble Maximus proposes (quite unabashedly) that
> citizens be able to buy influence in the centuries
> with monetary contributions. This is a repugnant
> idea. For what purpose does he propose it? Is the
> Republic in such dire need of money that it must
> stoop to influence peddling to fill its treasury?
>
> The noble Maximus opposed the proposed law as it was
> put forward, saying that "people will work for a
> cause they believe in," it is just up to the
> propraetors to motivate them. Why reward their hard
> work with century points? I say in return, people
> will contribute their money to a cause they believe
> in, you (Maximus and others in powerful positions)
> just have to motivate them. If financial need is
> not the motive behind the proposal, what is then?
>
> I have little power to oppose such a scheme, or to
> prevent it from becoming part of the fabric of Nova
> Roma. If such a wrong-headed proposal is ever
> grafted into the political or social system of the
> republic, I will pack my bags and flee to the
> barbarians, whose system is at least honestly
> corrupt, and not cloaked with a show of public
> virtue.
>
> If the republic is in desperate need of money, then
> make a public call for sacrificial giving on the
> part of devoted citizens. Don't even begin to
> consider the sale of influence, in whatever form it
> might take. Once we begin a journey down that road,
> the fabric of Nova Roma I referred to will begin to
> unravel.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Gaius Cornelius Pudens
Slave,
First I have never cared for the use of a point
system, call it Century points or Citizen points or
whatever. Frankly the whole notion sounds like a RPG
(Whoo Hooo I rolled a 20 and killed the Barbarian, I
get 20 Century Points)and does little for our
credibility as a nation or a historic resource.
In Antiquita a citizen's Census was the only factor
that determined his place in the Classes. If you
failed the means test it didn't matter if you were a
Consular, you were assigned to a lower class. A Good
example is the Namesake of our Junior Consul. The
Sulla of Antiquita was assigned to the Head count when
he was a young man despite belonging to a noble
Patrician family, because he failed the means test.
The Justifaction for the Elevated voting powers of the
first class was that they contributed more to the
state both by paying higher taxes, and in the Early
days when citizens had to arm themselves by serving in
the most dangrous postions in the Legios.
Basing Century assignment on the ammount of taxes paid
is far more historic than the point system we have or
on the system that was recently withdrawn.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Cornelia de suffragiis tribuendis |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
23 Apr 2002 21:09:26 -0300 |
|
Em Ter, 2002-04-23 às 14:10, Matt Haase escreveu:
> Salve Tribune,
>
> > No bizarre or complicated system. A simple conversion, that must be
> > done just once and for all. If we simply change our current points for
> > the new points on a fixed ratio, there is no additional complexity. In
> > fact, it would be simpler than the current proposal.
>
> It would not be simpler. The current century-point calculator always
> recalculates from nothing; it begins at zero, then iterates through the
> list of pointworthy events, past and present, until the total is arrived
> at.
>
> If there was an effort to preserve "old points" and have them different
> than new points, this would require considerable changes. There would
> have to be an "old points" field added to the citizen database. Some
> method would have to be created to edit the "old points" to fix errors
> (unless we are to assume that there are no errors in our records). The
> feature that iterates through the list of events/offices to show how the
> total was derived at would no longer be accurate (or, it would have to
> be made to look in two different places to gather the information).
>
> Having the same point values for an event/office, regardless of when
> it happened, is much simpler. I would simply put different numbers
> in the "present_value" and "past_value" columns in the magistracies
> table, then issue the command "./edit all", and a few minutes later
> everyone would have their points recalculated. The bizarre and
> inequitable systems that have been demanded as an alternative would
> require hours of work.
>
Either your database has a "Date" field which allows you to distinguish
between current and past magistrature
and it is a matter of an additional "else if" in your script
if date == current_date then
points = val_cur_csi
else if date > 2001
points = val_past_csi
else
points = val_past_cp * 5
end if
Or you have a boolean field "current" which would need to be transformed
in a tinyint field "current" old=1,new=2,current=0
and transform your
if current then
...
else
...
end if
in a
case current
0) .....
1) .....
2) .....
end case
in both cases not hours of work, specially when comparing to what you
already need to do: recreate the table of CSI values for the various
offices, create new offices (praefectus) etc. which could take much more
time
if they were hard coded and not in an external file.
Salve,
Manius Villius Limitanus
> Vale, O.
>
>
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points law |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:14:48 -0700 |
|
Avete Omnes,
And no one is disputing the very fact that in the past placement in the Centuries was done via the means test. Even admission to the Senate you were required to have a certain amount of financial resources, though it fluxuated heavily.
The issue at hand is would this be a viable means within Nova Roma? Would our citizens be willing to go to a similar styled system?
I would be in Nova Roma, and I would pay whatever amount so that my vote would count for as much as it possibly could but would others do the same?
I emailed Senator Q. Fabius Maximus to draw up a proposal like the one he suggested and I am willing to put his up for consideration considering the fact that some governors and legates felt my proposal was too confining to them. If they think my proposal is to confining maybe we should consider going to a financial based Class system as it was in ancient Rome. This would do two thing, one it would remove particiaption, given how controversial it seems, as a measuring stick for advancement. Secondly it would get us closer to the ancients.
I have no problem letting the system stay either with the Vedian system, or using the changes that I have proposed or using the system proposed by Senator Q. Fabius Maximus.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul of Nova Roma
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Century Points law
--- Terry Wilson <pudens656@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Avete,
>
> I have followed the debate on the now-withdrawn law
> with great interest. Because I have been a citizen
> for only a short time I have refrained from taking
> part in it, prefering to let wiser heads prevail.
> But when I read suggestions such as that put forth
> by Q. Fabius Maximus I regret that I did not
> participate while my opinion could have accomplished
> some good.
>
> The noble Maximus proposes (quite unabashedly) that
> citizens be able to buy influence in the centuries
> with monetary contributions. This is a repugnant
> idea. For what purpose does he propose it? Is the
> Republic in such dire need of money that it must
> stoop to influence peddling to fill its treasury?
>
> The noble Maximus opposed the proposed law as it was
> put forward, saying that "people will work for a
> cause they believe in," it is just up to the
> propraetors to motivate them. Why reward their hard
> work with century points? I say in return, people
> will contribute their money to a cause they believe
> in, you (Maximus and others in powerful positions)
> just have to motivate them. If financial need is
> not the motive behind the proposal, what is then?
>
> I have little power to oppose such a scheme, or to
> prevent it from becoming part of the fabric of Nova
> Roma. If such a wrong-headed proposal is ever
> grafted into the political or social system of the
> republic, I will pack my bags and flee to the
> barbarians, whose system is at least honestly
> corrupt, and not cloaked with a show of public
> virtue.
>
> If the republic is in desperate need of money, then
> make a public call for sacrificial giving on the
> part of devoted citizens. Don't even begin to
> consider the sale of influence, in whatever form it
> might take. Once we begin a journey down that road,
> the fabric of Nova Roma I referred to will begin to
> unravel.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Gaius Cornelius Pudens
Slave,
First I have never cared for the use of a point
system, call it Century points or Citizen points or
whatever. Frankly the whole notion sounds like a RPG
(Whoo Hooo I rolled a 20 and killed the Barbarian, I
get 20 Century Points)and does little for our
credibility as a nation or a historic resource.
In Antiquita a citizen's Census was the only factor
that determined his place in the Classes. If you
failed the means test it didn't matter if you were a
Consular, you were assigned to a lower class. A Good
example is the Namesake of our Junior Consul. The
Sulla of Antiquita was assigned to the Head count when
he was a young man despite belonging to a noble
Patrician family, because he failed the means test.
The Justifaction for the Elevated voting powers of the
first class was that they contributed more to the
state both by paying higher taxes, and in the Early
days when citizens had to arm themselves by serving in
the most dangrous postions in the Legios.
Basing Century assignment on the ammount of taxes paid
is far more historic than the point system we have or
on the system that was recently withdrawn.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points law |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
23 Apr 2002 21:18:51 -0300 |
|
Em Ter, 2002-04-23 às 21:03, L. Sicinius Drusus escreveu:
>
> --- Terry Wilson <pudens656@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Avete,
> >
> > I have followed the debate on the now-withdrawn law
> > with great interest. Because I have been a citizen
> > for only a short time I have refrained from taking
> > part in it, prefering to let wiser heads prevail.
> > But when I read suggestions such as that put forth
> > by Q. Fabius Maximus I regret that I did not
> > participate while my opinion could have accomplished
> > some good.
> >
> > The noble Maximus proposes (quite unabashedly) that
> > citizens be able to buy influence in the centuries
> > with monetary contributions. This is a repugnant
> > idea. For what purpose does he propose it? Is the
> > Republic in such dire need of money that it must
> > stoop to influence peddling to fill its treasury?
> >
> > The noble Maximus opposed the proposed law as it was
> > put forward, saying that "people will work for a
> > cause they believe in," it is just up to the
> > propraetors to motivate them. Why reward their hard
> > work with century points? I say in return, people
> > will contribute their money to a cause they believe
> > in, you (Maximus and others in powerful positions)
> > just have to motivate them. If financial need is
> > not the motive behind the proposal, what is then?
> >
> > I have little power to oppose such a scheme, or to
> > prevent it from becoming part of the fabric of Nova
> > Roma. If such a wrong-headed proposal is ever
> > grafted into the political or social system of the
> > republic, I will pack my bags and flee to the
> > barbarians, whose system is at least honestly
> > corrupt, and not cloaked with a show of public
> > virtue.
> >
> > If the republic is in desperate need of money, then
> > make a public call for sacrificial giving on the
> > part of devoted citizens. Don't even begin to
> > consider the sale of influence, in whatever form it
> > might take. Once we begin a journey down that road,
> > the fabric of Nova Roma I referred to will begin to
> > unravel.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Gaius Cornelius Pudens
>
> Slave,
>
> First I have never cared for the use of a point
> system, call it Century points or Citizen points or
> whatever. Frankly the whole notion sounds like a RPG
> (Whoo Hooo I rolled a 20 and killed the Barbarian, I
> get 20 Century Points)and does little for our
> credibility as a nation or a historic resource.
>
> In Antiquita a citizen's Census was the only factor
> that determined his place in the Classes. If you
> failed the means test it didn't matter if you were a
> Consular, you were assigned to a lower class. A Good
> example is the Namesake of our Junior Consul. The
> Sulla of Antiquita was assigned to the Head count when
> he was a young man despite belonging to a noble
> Patrician family, because he failed the means test.
>
> The Justifaction for the Elevated voting powers of the
> first class was that they contributed more to the
> state both by paying higher taxes, and in the Early
> days when citizens had to arm themselves by serving in
> the most dangrous postions in the Legios.
>
Not very accurate, the most expensive place + they had to buy the
equipment themselves would be much more accurate.
Beeing in the last line with the heavy infantry can hardly be thought of
as more dangerous as being a first line skirmisher.
And they didn't pay any taxes during their lives, only a portion of
their heritage. The taxes were paid by the non-citizens.
> Basing Century assignment on the ammount of taxes paid
> is far more historic than the point system we have or
> on the system that was recently withdrawn.
Yes, but we live in the 21st century.
+ we all pay the same taxes.
Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Cornelia de suffragiis tribuendis |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:38:36 -0500 (CDT) |
|
> Either your database has a "Date" field which allows you to distinguish
> between current and past magistrature
> and it is a matter of an additional "else if" in your script
> if date == current_date then
> points = val_cur_csi
> else if date > 2001
> points = val_past_csi
> else
> points = val_past_cp * 5
> end if
current/past/pre-2001 can be done in this manner. The other system you
proposed, where an old value is stored and dragged out whenever a
recalculation must be done, would require changes to the century point
calculator, the century point detail display tool, the censors' editing
tools, the magistrate table editor, and of course the citizen table.
I have far better things to do with my time than to build such a useless,
unfair, and needlessly complex system. Thankfully, what you propose
will never come to pass.
> recreate the table of CSI values for the various
> offices, create new offices (praefectus) etc. which could take much more
> time if they were hard coded and not in an external file.
update magistracies set past_value=10, present_value=20 where title='Legate';
Don't tell me what will take more time when you don't have the slightest
clue how the system works.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] The points, was: A Means, not an end |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br> |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:45:38 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salvete
--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> escreveu:
> The consuls,praetors and censors of 2002 will get
> exactly the same as
> you just said: 100,80 and 120 this year and stay
> with 50,40 and 60 in
> 2003.
> But the consul of 2000 will get the same number of
> points as the Censor
> of 2000 and the Praetor of 2000, since when they
> were elected they
> expected to gain the same number of CPs, it will
> also be the same number
> of CSIs, through the exange rate I calculated it
> could be 48CSIs each
> (could be made 50CSIs to ease calculations).
MAIOR: Ahh, finally i understand. You said that with
the new law, the former Praetor will be prejudicated
and the former Censor will be incorrectly awarded,
because they was equally rewarded in the Lex Vedia.
And in your opinion, a former Praetor in 1998-2001
shall receive the same as a former Consul in
1998-2001, something that can only modified from since
this year. So, if we accept as standard the CPs os a
Consul (100/50 CPs), one who was Praetor in, say, 1999
shall receive 50 CPs for their past service, but a
Praetor from now on, shall receive 40 CPs for past
service.
Hhmmm. Personally i feel that the Lex Vedia Centuriata
is obsolete and the "retrospectivity" correct an
error; that the difference, in this case, is small and
can be ignored without prejudice for the former
Praetores and other magistrates; and that the
correction that you proposed added a complexity factor
that is undesirable to the system of CP-awarding.
A dilemma, i believe. I wonder if how many citizens
are understanding what we said.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
Vale
Marcus Arminius
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Empregos
O trabalho dos seus sonhos pode estar aqui. Cadastre-se hoje mesmo no Yahoo! Empregos e tenha acesso a milhares de vagas abertas!
http://br.empregos.yahoo.com/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Cornelia de suffragiis tribuendis |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
23 Apr 2002 22:46:06 -0300 |
|
Em Ter, 2002-04-23 às 21:38, Marcus Octavius Germanicus escreveu:
>
> > Either your database has a "Date" field which allows you to distinguish
> > between current and past magistrature
> > and it is a matter of an additional "else if" in your script
> > if date == current_date then
> > points = val_cur_csi
> > else if date > 2001
> > points = val_past_csi
> > else
> > points = val_past_cp * 5
> > end if
>
> current/past/pre-2001 can be done in this manner. The other system you
> proposed, where an old value is stored and dragged out whenever a
> recalculation must be done, would require changes to the century point
> calculator, the century point detail display tool, the censors' editing
> tools, the magistrate table editor, and of course the citizen table.
>
The final value is the same (well if using 5 instead of 4.8 in my text),
just the algorithm of calculation was adapted to coding since from your
mails it appeared you stored the positions occupied and not the current
CP total.
> I have far better things to do with my time than to build such a useless,
> unfair, and needlessly complex system. Thankfully, what you propose
> will never come to pass.
>
> > recreate the table of CSI values for the various
> > offices, create new offices (praefectus) etc. which could take much more
> > time if they were hard coded and not in an external file.
>
> update magistracies set past_value=10, present_value=20 where title='Legate';
>
20 lines of mysql modifications vs 4 lines of perl still seems longer to
me. Even if your system is obviously well done (See my "... could ... if
they were hard coded (in the perl code)...")
With the non-retroactivity you will need an extra-line to alter the
table in order to add a filed for pre2001_value.
Definitively not much work.
> Don't tell me what will take more time when you don't have the slightest
> clue how the system works.
>
This is gratuitous, since it seems I guessed correctly the code part
Manius Villius Limitanus
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Cornelia de suffragiis tribuendis |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:21:29 -0500 (CDT) |
|
>> update magistracies set past_value=10, present_value=20
>> where title='Legate';
> 20 lines of mysql modifications vs 4 lines of perl still seems longer to
> me. Even if your system is obviously well done (See my "... could ... if
> they were hard coded (in the perl code)...")
The proposed solution would have required nothing more than changing
the point values in existing columns; one update statement for each
magistracy held.
With what you're advocating, all of that would still be required
(you didn't think the present and past point values would just appear
in the database by magic, did you?), as well as the changes to the
structure of the users and magistracies tables, the programmatic
changes to award the points differently, the new field that must
be accommodated in the Censors' editing tools...
and all that work, for what purpose? So that last year's legates
can continue to go without points, and last year's consuls will
have a pathetically low total compared to next year's consuls.
> > Don't tell me what will take more time when you don't have the slightest
> > clue how the system works.
>
> This is gratuitous, since it seems I guessed correctly the code part
Not gratuitious at all. I have explained what is involved (as the
only person in a position to know with certaintity) and you continue
to distort the facts. Even in your most recent post you natter on
about "20 lines of mysql vs 4 lines of perl", an obvious fabrication,
after I have already shown that much more than that is needed.
You chose to count the data entry for the simple solution in an effort
to make that seem tedious, yet ignore the data entry as well as the
table changes for your imaginary four-line solution.
That trick might work in Microsoft sales literature, but the citizens
of Rome will not fall for it.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Century Points law |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:28:51 -0000 |
|
Salve,
--- In novaroma@y..., Terry Wilson <pudens656@y...> wrote:
>
> Avete,
>
> The noble Maximus proposes (quite unabashedly) that citizens be
able to buy influence in the centuries with monetary contributions.
This is a repugnant idea. For what purpose does he propose it? Is
the Republic in such dire need of money that it must stoop to
influence peddling to fill its treasury?
>
And when influence is a commodity the first thing bought and sold is
the influential.
Pax,
Quintus Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Factiones Websites |
| From: |
"artabrus" <Piteas@inicia.es> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:57:12 -0000 |
|
¡Avete, cives!
These are the websites of each factio:
PRAESINA:
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/factio/praesina/
RUSSATA:
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/factio/russata/
VENETA:
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/factio/veneta/
ALBATA:
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/factio/albata/
Each website has members list, team standings, winners list,
photogallery (send any portrait, photograph or drawing about your
factio, please) and a link to the forum of the races.
Enjoy the Circus!
Love your Factio!
The Victory only has four colors to choose...it has to be yours!
Valete!
Informations:
- Cohors Aedilis Website - Section Ludi:
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/floreales
- Scriba Aedilis Cursus Equorum Curulis Aedilis Gnaeus Salix Galaicus:
piteas@jazzfiesta.com
- Quaestor Franciscus Apulus Caesar: sacro_barese_impero@libero.it
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] The idea had merit (was: Re: Century Points law ) |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:51:11 -0000 |
|
Salve,
> Slave,
> The Justifaction for the Elevated voting powers of the
> first class was that they contributed more to the
> state both by paying higher taxes, and in the Early
> days when citizens had to arm themselves by serving in
> the most dangrous postions in the Legios.
>
> Basing Century assignment on the ammount of taxes paid
> is far more historic than the point system we have or
> on the system that was recently withdrawn.
>
Interesting, if one were to move towards a purely historically
accurate system then as the tax rate is flat (currently $12 US) then
the class system would then be divided into two classes, tax payers
and non tax payers.
The idea that had the Republic endured that its governmental
structure would have stayed stagnent and not evolved one iota is to
ignore the reality of history. The Republic during its time evolved
slowly, in particular the plebian participation. Would the centuries
and classes still be extant today had the Republic endured? Part of
re-establishing the Roman Republic even as a micronation is not just
to recreate what once was but to create what will be.
Be that as it may, there is nothing wrong with retaining the
centuries and classes. Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix's idea to
increase the allotment of Century Points to more civil servants is
not a bad idea. Remove the offending mater/pater part; the
retroactive part; a slight adjust the allotment of legate/scribes for
the provincial governors with appeal to the senate to appoint more
staff (after all aren't the governor's suppose to be reporting and
justifying their conduct to the senate anyway?); leave the current
point allocations in the Vedia system alone, and I think that we'd
have a law that all could if not completely agree with, at least
consider a decent compromise. If the voters reject the law then that
is how the fates decided it would be.
Pax,
Quintus Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
AW: Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Cornelia de suffragiis tribuendis |
| From: |
<3s@hsk-net.de> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:42:01 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve, Consul.
I understand. I think it is good for all Quirites to get this clear.
Vale
Diocletianus
Censor
-- Original Nachricht--
Von: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
An: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Senden: 23.04.2002
Betreff: Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Cornelia de suffragiis tribuendis
Salve Censor,
> The re-calculation of CP´s due to the current law draft, could be
> retroactive as far as more CP´s then before are granted for a specific
> position or office, but I see no real reason for this. We all earned
> our current amount of CP´s, and we will earn more due to the various
> reasons for earning CP´s.
I had asked that this provision be included in the current proposal, for
it is much more difficult to calculate the other way. For ease of
calculation, each office should have one value associated with it - having
multiple values, depending on when the office is held, considerably
increases the difficulty of calculating the point awards.
This is also true of the plans to award points for all gens members
gained, regardless of when they started. My colleague did not want that
to be part of the proposal, but I asked him to put it in, as it greatly
simplifies the calculations - paterfamilias points would be a simple
multiplication operation, one line of code; versus an additional
database query and series of date comparision operations that would have
to be done for each gens member.
> I suggest to drop the paragraph about the retroactivity of the law
> from the draft.
It must remain. I don't have time to code for such a bizarre and
complicated system as would result from a law where the same events
have different values, depending on when they took place.
> Practical reasons are speaking in favour to this, too. There will be a
> great amount of work for the Censors and their assistants to
> recalculate CP´s for all current and previous office holders.
I have been calculating the century points for the past two years. I
can therefore say that any system where past events and future events
have different values is much more difficult than that proposal which
is currently before us.
I will continue to provide this service, but not if a bizarre and
convoluted system is mandated.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The idea had merit (was: Re: Century Points law ) |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:08:22 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> > Slave,
>
> > The Justifaction for the Elevated voting powers
> of the
> > first class was that they contributed more to
> the
> > state both by paying higher taxes, and in the
> Early
> > days when citizens had to arm themselves by
> serving in
> > the most dangrous postions in the Legios.
> >
> > Basing Century assignment on the ammount of
> taxes paid
> > is far more historic than the point system we
> have or
> > on the system that was recently withdrawn.
> >
>
> Interesting, if one were to move towards a purely
> historically
> accurate system then as the tax rate is flat
> (currently $12 US) then
> the class system would then be divided into two
> classes, tax payers
> and non tax payers.
>
> The idea that had the Republic endured that its
> governmental
> structure would have stayed stagnent and not evolved
> one iota is to
> ignore the reality of history. The Republic during
> its time evolved
> slowly, in particular the plebian participation.
> Would the centuries
> and classes still be extant today had the Republic
> endured? Part of
> re-establishing the Roman Republic even as a
> micronation is not just
> to recreate what once was but to create what will
> be.
>
> Be that as it may, there is nothing wrong with
> retaining the
> centuries and classes. Lucius Cornelius Sulla
> Felix's idea to
> increase the allotment of Century Points to more
> civil servants is
> not a bad idea. Remove the offending mater/pater
> part; the
> retroactive part; a slight adjust the allotment of
> legate/scribes for
> the provincial governors with appeal to the senate
> to appoint more
> staff (after all aren't the governor's suppose to be
> reporting and
> justifying their conduct to the senate anyway?);
> leave the current
> point allocations in the Vedia system alone, and I
> think that we'd
> have a law that all could if not completely agree
> with, at least
> consider a decent compromise. If the voters reject
> the law then that
> is how the fates decided it would be.
>
> Pax,
>
> Quintus Cassius Calvus
First of all the allotment of Provincial officals was
adjusted considerably before the lex was published on
this list. The Original draft called for one legate,
and three scribes. Many of the Propraetors felt this
was too low, and postions were added for 4 prefects, 3
more scribes, a Provincial sacerdos, and 6 Viatores
raising the number of provincial officals eligible for
points from 3 to 17. This was topped off by the
addition of the clause making it possible for Senate
to adjust these numbers if 17 proved unworkable. One
side was unwilling to compramise and it wasn't the
Consul.
Second the so called retroactive part is needed or the
lex would be grossly unfair. I Would suggest that
everyone take the time to read the Lex Vedia
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex99073007.html
The lex clearly states that it's purpose is "to
instruct the censors in the matter of the division of
the voting citizenry of Nova Roma into their
respective centuries" It then goes on to stste that
"The record of public service of each citizen shall be
quantified according to the following schedule (except
for points awarded for term of citizenship, points
shall be awarded cumulatively, but shall not carry
over from year to year)"
The old lex clearly states that points are NOT carried
over from year to year (execpt for term) and it's just
used by the Censors to form the Centuries. Hey guess
what people, right now you have ZERO points for past
service, ZERO points for current service and you won't
have them untill the Censors allot them to redraw the
centuries. That number that's generated when you look
at your profile is how many you will have when the
Censors redraw the Centuries, but right now besides
the term points you have ZERO service points.
Now we have the tribunes attempting to impose a double
standard on the citizens when these points are
awarded, with some citizens getting more points than
others for the exact same prior service. The Lex
clearly states it's to measure "commitment" (As if
that was possible). By awarding different numbers you
are saying that Marcus Cassius had LESS commitment to
Nova Roma than Lucius Cornelius because he served last
year instead of this year.
The whole mess has me disgusted. We have taken a
simple tool that only exists for the Censors to draw
up the Centuries and turned it into laurels, our
currancy isn't sesterceces, it's Century points.
We sound like inseccure teenage boys. "My point is
bigger than your point", "I Have the Biggest Point"
and now we have turned a simple reform into a grab for
a "Point Enlargement device" so we can all have porn
star sized points.
Bah, I Call on the Consuls to appoint every citizen as
a scriba, so they can brag about thier damn bigger
point.
L. Sicinius Drusus
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] A Means, not an end |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 02:22:05 -0700 (PDT) |
|
--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> wrote:
> Em Ter, 2002-04-23 às 14:19, L. Sicinius Drusus
> escreveu:
> >
> > --- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>
> wrote:
> > > Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Octavi.
> > >
> > > --- Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> <haase@konoko.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > > The argument over "Retroactive" points is
> > > absurd. It's
> > > > > not a matter of "retroactivatly awarding"
> > > points, it's
> > > > > a matter of using the same standard for all
> > > citizens
> > > > > when it's time to realign the centuries.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly. It's like saying that nothing that
> > > existed before 1799
> > > > should be measured in meters, because meters
> > > didn't exist then.
> > >
> > > Not at all.
> > >
> > > What the current proposal amounts to is to
> actually
> > > change *the initial
> > > measurements*.
> > >
> > > What I am proposing is to translate what was
> > > measured before this
> > > proposal for a fixed rate. What I am proposing
> is to
> > > actually *make a
> > > conversion*, instead of measuring again.
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> > > Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> > > Triumvir Academiae Thules
> > > Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
> > > Lictor Curiatus.
> > >
> > Some offices recieve zero points under the present
> > leges and would have recieved points under the new
> > lex.
> >
> > Any conversion factor times the zero points
> results in
> > zero points. This means former office holders who
> now
> > get no credit would be treated doifferently than
> > people who hold the exact same office at a later
> date.
> >
> > Is there a differance in their commitment to Nova
> Roma
> > different because they served before or after a
> given
> > date? The only purpose of the points is to measure
> > "commitment" in order to set up the centuries.
> >
> > For offices that recieve points under both the new
> and
> > old leges there is no single number that will give
> > equal results for all offices, meaning that
> citizens
> > would be treated differently depending on the date
> of
> > service and the office held.
> >
>
> Let me give you an actual example:
> In our institute there are several cleaning persons,
> some of then clean
> the administrative or lecture buildings, others
> clean the chemical labs.
>
> The new director decided to give the ones that clean
> the chemical labs
> an extra salary for "chemical risk".
> Of course this extra is only added to their salaries
> from the day of the
> decision and they won't get any extra for the time
> they already worked
> in this area before the date of that decision.
>
> That is a non-retroactive decision.
>
>
> > The Error was using the term retroactive rather
> than
> > simply repealling the old leges, abolishing the
> old
> > points and setting a new standard that applies
> equaly
> > to all citizens without discrimanation based on
> dates
> > of service.
> >
>
> Without the term the effective retroactivity of the
> law could have been
> misunderstood, I agree, i myself misunderstood the
> implications.
>
> But the law is still retroactive even without saying
> it.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
Tribune, the current lex clearly states that points
for prior service are NOT carried over from year to
year. Right now everyone has ZERO points for prior
service and will have zero points until the Censors
award them when they draw up the new lists.
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex99073007.html
B. The record of public service of each citizen shall
be quantified according to the following schedule
(except for points awarded for term of citizenship,
points shall be awarded cumulatively, but shall not
carry over from year to year)
The number that the website provides is how many
points you will have when the Censors use them to
redraw the Centuries, but untill then you actually
only have points for term of service, because they
weren't carried over from last year.
To use your example you are seeking to establish a
dual rate pay scale where people who perform the exact
same job are paid differently based on the date they
were hired, with the Senior workers getting paid less
than the new hires.
L. Sicinius Drusus
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points law |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:24:43 +0100 (BST) |
|
Salvete,
>First I have never cared for the use of a point
>system, call it Century points or Citizen points or
>whatever. Frankly the whole notion sounds like a RPG
>(Whoo Hooo I rolled a 20 and killed the Barbarian, I
>get 20 Century Points)and does little for our
>credibility as a nation or a historic resource.
But it is undeniably a means to an end. A way of
rewarding commitment and dedication to Nova Roma with
increased voting power and thus a greater say in its
future.
>In Antiquita a citizen's Census was the only factor
>that determined his place in the Classes. If you
>failed the means test it didn't matter if you were a
>Consular, you were assigned to a lower class. A
>Good example is the Namesake of our Junior Consul.
The
>Sulla of Antiquita was assigned to the Head count
>when he was a young man despite belonging to a noble
>Patrician family, because he failed the means test.
>The Justifaction for the Elevated voting powers of
the
>first class was that they contributed more to the
>state both by paying higher taxes, and in the Early
>days when citizens had to arm themselves by serving
in
>the most dangrous postions in the Legios.
>Basing Century assignment on the ammount of taxes
paid
>is far more historic than the point system we have or
>on the system that was recently withdrawn.
So, let us initiate a system that rewards those of us
wealthy enough to be able to afford to pump money into
NR, whilst time, dedication and commitment count for
nothing. All in the name of historical accuracy.
Super! Can we bring back slavery too? These shoes of
mine need a cleanin' ;-)
Valete
Decimus Iunius Silanus
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] A Final Statement |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:37:55 +0100 (BST) |
|
Salvete Quirites.
This will be my final message on the Lex Cornelia.
Consul Sulla has decided to withdraw his proposal. Although his
proposal had *many* good points, and I would have loved to vote in
favour and to support a modified version of it, I respect his decision.
I can just hope that no bad feelings have been aroused and, if they
have, that they will not determine future cooperation.
As for additional comments on the Lex Cornelia, I feel that they are
not necessary any more. It has *never* been my intention to prove that
I am right; my sole interest in all this affair was to help our Res
Publica to grow in a coherent and reasonable way. Since I feel that
further commentaries on a proposal that, for the moment being, has been
retired would not help the growth of our Res Publica, I will abstain
from making them.
If any of you is still interested in my ideas or points of view, please
feel free to contact me privately.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] A Means, not an end |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
24 Apr 2002 10:25:28 -0300 |
|
On Wed, 2002-04-24 at 06:22, L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> --- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> wrote:
> > Em Ter, 2002-04-23 às 14:19, L. Sicinius Drusus
> > escreveu:
> > >
> > > --- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>
> > wrote:
> > > > Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Octavi.
> > > >
> > > > --- Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> > <haase@konoko.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > >
> > > > > > The argument over "Retroactive" points is
> > > > absurd. It's
> > > > > > not a matter of "retroactivatly awarding"
> > > > points, it's
> > > > > > a matter of using the same standard for all
> > > > citizens
> > > > > > when it's time to realign the centuries.
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly. It's like saying that nothing that
> > > > existed before 1799
> > > > > should be measured in meters, because meters
> > > > didn't exist then.
> > > >
> > > > Not at all.
> > > >
> > > > What the current proposal amounts to is to
> > actually
> > > > change *the initial
> > > > measurements*.
> > > >
> > > > What I am proposing is to translate what was
> > > > measured before this
> > > > proposal for a fixed rate. What I am proposing
> > is to
> > > > actually *make a
> > > > conversion*, instead of measuring again.
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> > > > Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > > Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
> > > > Triumvir Academiae Thules
> > > > Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
> > > > Lictor Curiatus.
> > > >
> > > Some offices recieve zero points under the present
> > > leges and would have recieved points under the new
> > > lex.
> > >
> > > Any conversion factor times the zero points
> > results in
> > > zero points. This means former office holders who
> > now
> > > get no credit would be treated doifferently than
> > > people who hold the exact same office at a later
> > date.
> > >
> > > Is there a differance in their commitment to Nova
> > Roma
> > > different because they served before or after a
> > given
> > > date? The only purpose of the points is to measure
> > > "commitment" in order to set up the centuries.
> > >
> > > For offices that recieve points under both the new
> > and
> > > old leges there is no single number that will give
> > > equal results for all offices, meaning that
> > citizens
> > > would be treated differently depending on the date
> > of
> > > service and the office held.
> > >
> >
> > Let me give you an actual example:
> > In our institute there are several cleaning persons,
> > some of then clean
> > the administrative or lecture buildings, others
> > clean the chemical labs.
> >
> > The new director decided to give the ones that clean
> > the chemical labs
> > an extra salary for "chemical risk".
> > Of course this extra is only added to their salaries
> > from the day of the
> > decision and they won't get any extra for the time
> > they already worked
> > in this area before the date of that decision.
> >
> > That is a non-retroactive decision.
> >
> >
> > > The Error was using the term retroactive rather
> > than
> > > simply repealling the old leges, abolishing the
> > old
> > > points and setting a new standard that applies
> > equaly
> > > to all citizens without discrimanation based on
> > dates
> > > of service.
> > >
> >
> > Without the term the effective retroactivity of the
> > law could have been
> > misunderstood, I agree, i myself misunderstood the
> > implications.
> >
> > But the law is still retroactive even without saying
> > it.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
>
> Tribune, the current lex clearly states that points
> for prior service are NOT carried over from year to
> year. Right now everyone has ZERO points for prior
> service and will have zero points until the Censors
> award them when they draw up the new lists.
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex99073007.html
>
>
> B. The record of public service of each citizen shall
> be quantified according to the following schedule
> (except for points awarded for term of citizenship,
> points shall be awarded cumulatively, but shall not
> carry over from year to year)
>
> The number that the website provides is how many
> points you will have when the Censors use them to
> redraw the Centuries, but untill then you actually
> only have points for term of service, because they
> weren't carried over from last year.
>
> To use your example you are seeking to establish a
> dual rate pay scale where people who perform the exact
> same job are paid differently based on the date they
> were hired, with the Senior workers getting paid less
> than the new hires.
>
That is a good argument. Accepted.
Manius Villius Limitanus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Century Points law the whys |
| From: |
qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:30:24 EDT |
|
In a message dated 4/24/02 2:26:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Salvete!
> So, let us initiate a system that rewards those of us
> wealthy enough to be able to afford to pump money into
> NR, whilst time, dedication and commitment count for
> nothing. All in the name of historical accuracy.
>
You miss the point completely. I have no problem with CPs being used for
MAJOR offices, those offices being Consul, Censor, Praetor Urbanii, Tribune,
Aedile, Quaestor, Senator, Provincial Praetor. Where I had the problem was
awarding points for every other job taken here in NR.
I had problems with Patricians getting points for being one of the fortunate
30 original families here in Nova Roma. I had problems with scribae getting
points, Pontiffs getting points, minor offices getting points.
Look if you need points to reward you for being a scribe, then you shouldn't
be a scribe, since you doing the job for the wrong reason. No, you should be
a scribe, because you want to learn more about the inner workings of the
republic. Because one day you plan to be a Quaestor.
If you are on the College of Pontiffs for a reward, then you don't belong.
You should be there because you are dedicated to reviving the Roman Religio,
and not some watered down version so you can collect 10 points a year.
If you are a Legatus to a Provincial Praetor because you need 5 points to
raise your status, you are there not for Nova Roma's benefit, to be the
possible replacement when the Praetor moves up, or dies or retires, no, you
are there for yourself.
That's why I am suggesting monetary contributions to those non political
citizens who wish to contribute to NR to raise their status here in the
Republic. Rome needs all the money she can receive. We have ambitious
programs for Roman studies, scholarships, land funds, equipment etc. What
better way aid the republic if one does not wish to enter the cursus?
If you were earning real money in your jobs here, I'm sure there would be a
pay schedule.
But no one is earning money here. We are all spending it, instead.
The reason for CPs rewards for the magistrates of the republic is simple. In
old Rome you had to have means to hold a magistracy. To be on the Senate,
you had to own major property, that is something we do not demand here in NR
of our Senate.
However, we reward our Senators by raising them in class since historically
they would be influential within their assemblies, here they are as well.
Censors are the toughest job so far in the republic. I think if any one
office should be financially rewarded with money, it is this office. Alas, I
cannot see how to do this without
opening a whole can of sardines, it would set a precedent, and one that would
cause discord.
Hopefully this will go far in settling some of you questions on the "why"
> Super! Can we bring back slavery too? These shoes of
> mine need a cleanin' ;-)
>
I'm sure the author of this line felt he was very witty. I only shake my
head in sadness since he reveals how uninformed he is.
Have any of you thought about if Rome had survived to this day, the fact is
that we would still have slavery? Based on many comments I have read in this
Forum I have come to realize a lot of you do not have a clue what slavery
meant in ancient times. You still see the abolished 19th century
institution. I use to have this debate with my classic students when I
taught. Plain fact is the Roman institution was nothing like the modern
institution.
"Oh wait!" I hear you cry. "Are you saying Roman slaves were not
mistreated?"
Of course not. Certainly many were mistreated. I never under estimate the
capability of man being able to inflict cruelty on their fellow man.
This not the place to discuss the legal ramifications of ancient slavery, but
there were leges protecting them. Also they could regain freedom, and rather
easily, compared to the latter institution.
In the studio's rotunda where I have my office, there is a 62 year old black
man named Rufus.
Rufus shines shoes, (thinking of our friend's above comment) and he is a
master. Rufus shines my boots and usually asks for three dollars. I give
him five. Rufus has to pay income tax on his earnings. He has to pay rent
on his space. He is always busy, so, he getting a living wage. However, he
does not retain a lot of it. He has no medical insurence, and he could die
of a disease at any time. He lives in a run-down hotel room near the studio.
When I sit in his chair, getting my shoes done, I flash back to ancient Rome.
I see myself in my toga having it clayed to whiten it, for my big
presentation before the Senate. The Egyptian doing the job, was captured in
a war several years ago, and because he knew clothes, the state purchased him
from the victorious legatus, and put him to work here at the Curule House to
aid Senators such as myself.
Rufus is a master with the toga. He has an old battered lead cup for tips,
and we wealthy Senators always give him gold and silver denarii and
sestercii. He sleeps behind the House in a ramshackle hovel, but he is
happy. He has recently acquired a money lender that will save his tips for
him, and he plans to eventually purchase his freedom from the state, once his
purchase price is met. Several months ago Rufus was robbed by a cutpad.
However several Senators persuaded the Urban Praetor to look for the man, and
the city soldiers recently arrested him, after an informer told them of a man
boasting about the deed. He now awaits trial. We all contributed to Rufus'
sum, so the State will prosecute.
Back to reality. Sure Rufus is not well off. He has no medical insurance,
he could die from disease at anytime, and he has no companionship. But he
has the opportunity to get his freedom, and he is at Rome the center of the
western universe.
No, ancient slavery was not the abomination many of you enlightened 20th
century people make it out to be.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] OT - English to Russian translation needed! |
| From: |
cassius622@aol.com |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:51:32 EDT |
|
Salvete,
I'm hoping someone out there can do me a small translation favor. I have a
Russian customer that I am having trouble communicating with, and need to be
able to give him a short explanatory note that he can understand. Just a
paragraph or so of text.
Can anyone help me with this? I cannot find an online English to Russian
translating program, and know the online translators are not precise anyway.
Not being able to talk to this person lost me two hours of time this
afternoon - time that will now have to make up by staying late. This is
*killing* my available Nova Roma time. Please email me personally if you can
assist - no reason to crowd the lists by continuing this off topic thread.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Caligae Romanae |
| From: |
"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:57:37 -0700 |
|
I have a recommendation for the well-dressed dominus et domina: hie
thyselves to Museum Replicas and type "roman" into their search box. I have
just received a fine pair of black caligae (2-3 rd Century Roman Boot as
they list it) and I believe it's being phased out of their product listings,
though there is another Roman shoe listed.
Price, with shipping included, is $71, and there is a limited supply of
black and red shoes. Women need to order one size smaller, and when I
ordered last week (during a brief 10% off sale) the smallest sizes they
carried were 7.
In addition to footwear, there are tunicae, stolae, and all manner of
weaponry, all of excellent make. Some may be priced beyond the number of
your sestertii, others may give you ideas of what can be made yourself, if
you're crafty. But good footwear is hard to replicate and hard to come by,
so try these on for size, and don't forget the Floralia fashion show
contest!
Museum Replicas
www.museumreplicas.com
Floralia Fashion Contest
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/floreales/award.htm
---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net
|
