Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: "The Lost Legions of Varus"
From:	"Christopher Duemmel" <cduemmel@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Fri, 10 May 2002 18:54:06 -0400

Sorry it took so long to reply...To be honest I only noted one thing that
bugged me, although I was in the middle of working on Lorica Segmentata
hinges at the same time.

At one point there was the view of a calvaryman on horeseback (go figure)
wearing his crest in the field. That slightly bothered me, though I don't
know enough about the cavalry (or any other auxiliaryman for that matter),
but Everything I've seen indicates that a Centurion may wear his crest in
the field, where all others were mainly used for parade. Granted this is a
Legionairres perspective...
-----Original Message-----
From: ambrosius_slivus [mailto:xwood@usa.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 7:21 PM
To: novaroma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [novaroma] Re: "The Lost Legions of Varus"


That is one of the stories of Roman history that has always
fascinated me the most. Unfortunately, I don't have cable so I
couldn't watch it. I am curious as to what the show was like and what
you did or did not find accurate.

Ambrosius

--- In novaroma@y..., AntoniaCorneliaOctavia <europamoon7@y...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I watched it also and enjoyed it immensely. Can you
> mention a couple of things that you disagreed with?
>
> Vale,
>
> Antonia Cornelia Octavia
> --- Christopher Duemmel <cduemmel@b...>
> wrote:
> > Yes, I watched it last night...excellent show,
> > however I won't pick it apart
> > from a technical point of vire...:)
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Charlie Collins [mailto:cotta@s...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 9:39 PM
> > To: novaroma@y...
> > Subject: [novaroma] History Channel Program Note
> >
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > The History Channel is now showing "The Lost
> > Legions of Varus". It
> > shows the history of the
> > great disaster in the Teutoburg Forest.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Sextus Cornelius Cotta

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Staples
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 10 May 2002 21:04:45 -0400

On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 12:18:49PM -0400, Christopher L. Wood wrote:

Salve, T. Ambrosius -

> Salve Scaevola et omnes,
>
> I must disagree with you on a point - you say that iron "would rust and
> cause septicemia and tetanus in very short order," but this is only if the
> metal were contaminated with tetanus or staph bacteria. Rust in and of
> itself does not cause septicemia or tetanus. The perception that "rusty
> nails cause tetanus" originated from the fact that a rusty nail laying
> around outside most likely also has lots of germs on it, so if one steps on
> it, it very likely would cause a nasty infection.

You are, of course, correct in that rust itself does not contain any
bacteria. I was presuming that ferrous metals in the non-rusted (and
sterilized) state would not be a common item in those times.

> Rust itself is non-toxic, and in fact, the red color of our blood comes from
> the iron oxide (contained in hemoglobin) which transports oxygen to the
> body. Blood does not cause iron to rust because it naturally grabs oxygen,
> which is required to rust iron.

I disagree. The tiny amount of iron in the blood cannot "grab" oxygen
the way that a bare metal surface would. There's no extra "grabbing"
power in the blood, simply the tendency of iron to combine with oxygen.

> Also, the iron typically used by the Romans
> would not rust as readily as mild steel with which we are most familiar
> today.

Really? To what would you attribute that? On my part, I would certainly
be willing to defend the opposite: in Roman times, what little steel
_was_ available was very high in carbon due to the low smelting
temperatures. High-carbon steels rust much more readily than the
low-carbon ones. This is something in which I _will_ claim some
expertise; I live aboard a boat constructed of low-carbon steel for the
specific purpose of deterring rust.

> Although copper and lead are toxic, there are many shooting victims
> who have survived with lead or copper-jacketed bullets embedded in their
> bodies with few ill effects.

I can't claim that I've ever heard of anything like that; however, the
most common effects of lead poisoning (mental retardation, personality
changes, anorexia, abdominal disorders) are not necessarily obvious as
to their cause and can be easily misdiagnosed.

> The Romans, although ignorant of bacteria, were aware of the benefits of
> sterilization, and if they used such a suturing system, probably would have
> cleaned the staples in boiling water or flame before use. Of course, if the
> skin were not properly cleaned, driving metal staples through it would
> certainly have introduced bacteria into the flesh and caused infection. But
> if the options were either bleeding to death through a huge gaping wound, or
> risking infection by closing it with metal staples, but having a chance to
> survive, which would you take?

Which would I take? Field expedient: bandaging the wound. Long-term:
stitching. The greatest benefit of staples and tapes, as compared to
stitching, is cosmetic: they produce less scarring (lessened infection
can't really have been an issue in that setting; it's not something that
can be intuited, and studies certainly did not exist.)

> As you pointed out, the proper use of such
> staples may not have been to puncture the skin, but to hold it together like
> binder clips, which would have reduced the chances of infection.

Again, this requires having the modern tools that apply them. I very
much doubt that the instruments to form tiny, precise metal shapes in a
medical setting existed back then...

> Of course, this is just my conjecture based on the current discussion (I did
> not see the original program). Hopefully new evidence will turn up in the
> future will clarify the matter.

<grin> It's nothing more than a thought experiment for me as well, going
on my general store of knowledge. Someone may well come up with a cite
from, e.g., Galen that would set it all at naught. But it _is_ fun to
toss these things up in the air and see what comes down... and this,
IMO, is the right place for it.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magna vis veritatis quae facile se per se ipsa defendat.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: "The Lost Legions of Varus"
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 00:06:29 EDT

In a message dated 5/10/02 6:21:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cduemmel@bellsouth.net writes:


> At one point there was the view of a calvaryman on horeseback (go figure)
> wearing his crest in the field. That slightly bothered me, though I don't
> know enough about the cavalry (or any other auxiliaryman for that matter),
> but Everything I've seen indicates that a Centurion may wear his crest in
> the field, where all others were mainly used for parade. Granted this is a
> Legionairres perspective...
>

If he was a Decurio, no problem. However since Josephus says that the Roman
legio cavalry was a fairly new addition to the legiones, I doubt alae would
be with Varius army.
There is no mention in any horse in the accounts of the disaster, except for
the officers and supernumeries being mounted, no one else was .

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Imperium Group
From:	"kurblick" <Kurblick@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 04:39:38 -0000

If anyone is interested in some fairly intensive role-playing in
about 200 BC, I think you might be interested in the Imperium
group. It involves all the military, politics, and culture of
that period. We could REALLY do with some new blood.
Particularily if you're radically slanted... *grin*... the
conservatives are totally monopolizing the Senate and Assembly
right now... I haven't managed to pass a liberal law in months!
(Yes, I play a radical-slanted character). You can visit the
site at:

http://www.communityzero.com/imperium

If you're interested, please contact Scaurus at:
brian_bleich@yahoo.com


PS: To anyone who knew Ancient Sites, you will remember Imperium
was a group there.

Phillipus

Subject:	[novaroma] Salvete Brasilienses
From:	"Cl. Salix Davianus" <davius_sanctex@terra.es>
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 16:20:51 -0500

Avete amici:

I have sollicited my subscritption to NR_brasil I expect to partipate positively in this list.
My email adrees for purposes of recognition is: davius_sanctex@terra.es

Cl. Salix Davianus
======================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] SERAPIO TO ALL NOVAROMANS
From:	"mcserapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 17:30:47 -0000

CITIZENS OF NOVA ROMA

Given my candidacy as Quaestor, I strongly invite you to visit my
webpage, set up with the collaboration of a great friend of mine,
Franciscus Apulus Caesar.

Please, visit http://italia.novaroma.org/Serapio

You will find my CVRRICVLVM VITAE, my activities in Nova Roma, the
messages of my supporters and several PROPOSALS AS QVAESTOR.

http://italia.novaroma.org/Serapio

Thank you!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
VALETE OPTIME
MANIVS CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Italiae
Dominus Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressus
---------------------
Provincia Italia: http://italia.novaroma.org
M' Constantinus Serapio http://italia.novaroma.org/Serapio

Subject:	[novaroma] SERAPIO TO ALL NOVAROMANS (correct URL)
From:	"mcserapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 17:52:57 -0000

AVETE OMNES

I apologize with you for a little mistake: in giving you my URL I
wrote a capital letter instead of a small one.
I hope you will forgive me!!!

The correct URL is: http://italia.novaroma.org/serapio

I invite you again to visit it! (this time it is correct!)

http://italia.novaroma.org/serapio

VALETE OPTIME
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate as Quaestor***
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Italiae
Dominus Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressus
----------------------
Provincia Italia: http://italia.novaroma.org
M' Constantinus Serapio: http://italia.novaroma.org/serapio

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Staples
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	11 May 2002 15:28:09 -0300

Em Sex, 2002-05-10 ās 22:04, Caius Minucius Scaevola escreveu:
> On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 12:18:49PM -0400, Christopher L. Wood wrote:
>
> Salve, T. Ambrosius -
>
> > Salve Scaevola et omnes,
> >
> > I must disagree with you on a point - you say that iron "would rust and
> > cause septicemia and tetanus in very short order," but this is only if the
> > metal were contaminated with tetanus or staph bacteria. Rust in and of
> > itself does not cause septicemia or tetanus. The perception that "rusty
> > nails cause tetanus" originated from the fact that a rusty nail laying
> > around outside most likely also has lots of germs on it, so if one steps on
> > it, it very likely would cause a nasty infection.
>
> You are, of course, correct in that rust itself does not contain any
> bacteria. I was presuming that ferrous metals in the non-rusted (and
> sterilized) state would not be a common item in those times.
>
> > Rust itself is non-toxic, and in fact, the red color of our blood comes from
> > the iron oxide (contained in hemoglobin) which transports oxygen to the
> > body. Blood does not cause iron to rust because it naturally grabs oxygen,
> > which is required to rust iron.
>
> I disagree. The tiny amount of iron in the blood cannot "grab" oxygen
> the way that a bare metal surface would. There's no extra "grabbing"
> power in the blood, simply the tendency of iron to combine with oxygen.
>

In fact it is much lower, Hemoglobine is able to exchange oxygen for
carbon oxide at body temperature, while iron needs the high furnace
temperatures to be reduced.

> > Also, the iron typically used by the Romans
> > would not rust as readily as mild steel with which we are most familiar
> > today.
>
> Really? To what would you attribute that? On my part, I would certainly
> be willing to defend the opposite: in Roman times, what little steel
> _was_ available was very high in carbon due to the low smelting
> temperatures. High-carbon steels rust much more readily than the
> low-carbon ones. This is something in which I _will_ claim some
> expertise; I live aboard a boat constructed of low-carbon steel for the
> specific purpose of deterring rust.
>

100% correct.

> > Although copper and lead are toxic, there are many shooting victims
> > who have survived with lead or copper-jacketed bullets embedded in their
> > bodies with few ill effects.
>
> I can't claim that I've ever heard of anything like that; however, the
> most common effects of lead poisoning (mental retardation, personality
> changes, anorexia, abdominal disorders) are not necessarily obvious as
> to their cause and can be easily misdiagnosed.
>

And since the romans used lead water conducts the little extra lead from
stapples would certainly have no noticable influence.


> > The Romans, although ignorant of bacteria, were aware of the benefits of
> > sterilization, and if they used such a suturing system, probably would have
> > cleaned the staples in boiling water or flame before use. Of course, if the
> > skin were not properly cleaned, driving metal staples through it would
> > certainly have introduced bacteria into the flesh and caused infection. But
> > if the options were either bleeding to death through a huge gaping wound, or
> > risking infection by closing it with metal staples, but having a chance to
> > survive, which would you take?
>
> Which would I take? Field expedient: bandaging the wound. Long-term:
> stitching. The greatest benefit of staples and tapes, as compared to
> stitching, is cosmetic: they produce less scarring (lessened infection
> can't really have been an issue in that setting; it's not something that
> can be intuited, and studies certainly did not exist.)
>

Not sure, stapples are somehow external, they mostly grab the skin, not
the flesh. A needle needs to pierce the skin and if infected/dirty
injects the bacterias in a favarouble area (specially tetanos which is
anaerobic).

> > As you pointed out, the proper use of such
> > staples may not have been to puncture the skin, but to hold it together like
> > binder clips, which would have reduced the chances of infection.
>
> Again, this requires having the modern tools that apply them. I very
> much doubt that the instruments to form tiny, precise metal shapes in a
> medical setting existed back then...
>

They were not that bad. Even a large stapple, badly applied, with
absolutely no care for scars, of the size of a binder clip can help in
the
deep cicatrization.

> > Of course, this is just my conjecture based on the current discussion (I did
> > not see the original program). Hopefully new evidence will turn up in the
> > future will clarify the matter.
>
> <grin> It's nothing more than a thought experiment for me as well, going
> on my general store of knowledge. Someone may well come up with a cite
> from, e.g., Galen that would set it all at naught. But it _is_ fun to
> toss these things up in the air and see what comes down... and this,
> IMO, is the right place for it.
>

Manius Villius Limitanus

>
> Vale,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Magna vis veritatis quae facile se per se ipsa defendat.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Fort on the Tyne
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 15:54:23 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

I was appraised of the following report a few days ago and thought that
you might find it interesting:

=====================================

"Archaeology Program -- Earthwatch / Europe

Exploring the fringes of empire at the largest excavation of a Roman
Military site, for the past nine years, Earthwatch volunteers have
played a central role in excavating the Roman Fort of Arbeia at South
Shields, part of the Hadrian's Wall World Heritage Site. The results
have exceeded all expectations, revealing a rich history from the late
Mesolithic Period, until long after the Romans had left the British
Isles.

Two millenia ago, the Roman Empire stretched its tentacles all the way
to northern England, once considered the edge of civilization. What was
it like to be a soldier posted at a fort a stone's throw from Hadrian's
Wall, with a wild land beyond it? What was the history of the site
before Romans appeared, and how did the local cultures adapt to the new
presence? What was it like for villagers in a small pre-Roman
settlement to have thier provincial home become one of the largest and
busiest supply depots in the northern empire? The answers to these and
many other questions about the Romanization of Britain can be found here
at Arbeia, on a flat-topped hill wth a commanding view of the mouth of
the River Tyne, the site of a Roman garrison and harbor.

This notice offers the opportunity for you to help archaeologists Paul
Bidwell, Dr. Nick Hodgson, and Graeme Stobbs (all with the Tyne and Wear
Museum) excavate the Roman fort Arbeia and its environs to show how
Romans changed the face of Europe and in turn were changed by it.
Previous Earthwatch teams have mapped more than 1,000 square meters of
preRoman settlement here and have started excavating the buildings used
by third-century Roman officers and ther families, meanwhile turning up
jewelry, armor, game-boards, and ceramics. Thier finds have shown that
Arbeia went through several periods of building and abandonment to meet
the needs of Rome's rulers. This season's teams will excavate for
evidence of the earliest Roman settlement and fort here, stretchng back
to the 1st century of the modern era.

The leaders of this effort are ideally positioned to excavate this site,
which was cleared of modern construction and turned over to the Tyne and
Wear Museums Service for management of research and reconstruction in
the 1970's. The various teams will work in groups of four or five,
rotating among the many available tasks on the excavation project site.
You are sure to experience and become proficient at a wide range of
activities including stratigraphic excavation, using a trowel and brush,
recordng techniques, site surveying, and sampling, cleaning and
processing finds among others. As a result, you can look forward to
understanding in detail the deeper delving into how local cultures,
enviroments, and economies were affected by the Romanization
For more information on how to join this group go to
www.earthwatch.org/europe/

My thanks to Professor Kriss Beveridge at Three Rivers College in
Norwich, CT -- USA, for bringing this information to my attention.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Subject:	[novaroma] C. Serapio for Quaestor!!
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 09:57:39 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes,

I have been a citizen for only two months, however it
has been enough time to find out that C. Serapio is a
very helpful man, always available and a very hard
worker.
I can only advice to vote for him...

Valete,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Acting Praefectus for France

Terrarum dea gentiumque, Roma
Cui par est nihil et nihil secundum.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Availabilty of certian Roman Texts?
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 11 May 2002 10:01:37 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Legate,

I know that the Divine and Human Antiquities have been
lost.
For the two other titles, I will search to find out.

Respectfully,

--- "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I was curious if anyone could tell me if the
> following works survived
> and are available in an English translation:
>
> Divine and Human Antiquities by Marcus Terentius
> Varro
>
> On The Gods by Nigidius Figulus
>
> On Forms of Address by Granius Flaccus
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Valete.
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Quaestor
> Lictor Curiatus
> Legate of Massachusetts
> Scriba Propraetoris, Nova Britannia
>
>
> ICQ# 28924742
>
> "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Acting Praefectus for France

Terrarum dea gentiumque, Roma
Cui par est nihil et nihil secundum.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com