Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Advice Needed
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT)

--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@telia.com> wrote:
> Salve Honorable Diana Apollonia (formerly Moravia)
> Aventina!
>
> Accordin to a new law each Parefamilias sometime
> next summer. If the
> Paterfamilias of you old Gens will not register then
> he will be
> removed from the registers of Nova Ronma as far as I
> understand. What
> would happen then? I really don't know, Gens Moravia
> would ceese to
> exist, that much is clear, but then?
>
> Then is an example of an issue that should be
> answered in the new
> package of Gens legislation that Illustris Lucius
> Sicinius Drusus has
> written.
>
> Could You please look into this Illustris Lucius
> Sicinius Drusus. A
> situation as this one will probably be scarce, but
> still it would be
> a shanme if Honorable Diana Apollonia (formerly
> Moravia) Aventin
> couldn't return to her Gens and be the Mater of a
> Moravia familia.
>
> >If anyone has any ideas on how I should proceed
> from here, I would welcome
> >the advice.
> >
> >Diana Apollonia (formerly Moravia) Aventina

This is a problem that needs to be solved Without a
citizen having to wait for a year.

There is no way a Lex can cover all circumstances, nor
do I think it desirable to try. I Think that in cases
where a citizen can't contact a Paterfamilis she
should be able to go before the Praetors who would
summon the Paterfamilis to respond to the request, and
if the Paterfamilis failed to answer the summons
within 30 days that the Praetors be given the
authority to act in Loco Parentis and approve or deny
the request.

Protecting the authority of the Paterfamilis is one
thing, having citizens suffer because a Paterfamilis
ignores the duties of his postion is another.

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Hello
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:08:04 -0400

On Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 08:32 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Hi!
> My name's Jim and I just signed up with this group. Ancient Rome
> (particularly between 50 BCE and 50 CE) is one of my favorite periods
> in history. I'm not exactly sure how your group works. I've glanced at
> your website and you seem pretty involved. I was wondering if you don't
> mind me hanging around and occasionally asking stupid questions.:) I
> imagine that y'all know a tremendous amount about Ancient Rome and I'd
> be grateful if I could pick your brains.
> Currently, I'm trying to find detailed info about the police force that
> Augustus sat up. Suetonius doesn't say much and I've spent hours
> searching websites to no avail. If anyone can tell me anything or point
> me in the right direction, I'd be very grateful.

Welcome, Jim! We're happy to have you among us. Right now this list is
going through some debates about Nova Roma's internal structure, but
they actually touch on issues of Roman social history and family
structure, so you might find something of interest there. There are
usually a lot of topics going on at once so feel free to pick and choose
the messages that pertain best to you.

A quick search finds this page, which regrettably does not mention the
source of its Roman material:

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/205/205lect04.htm

This page, written for the information of the writer and reader of
Roman-themed mystery novels, is a bit better:

http://loki.stockton.edu/~roman/fiction/eslaw1.htm

The author's end notes suggest some excellent resources for learning
more:

http://loki.stockton.edu/~roman/fiction/eslaw2.htm

I wish you good fortune in your studies!

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Hello!
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:11:50 -0700 (PDT)

Jim--Hey! It's good to find another Houstonian who's
in Nova Roma. :) Has your street turned into a
river, yet? Ours is trying to.

Welcome to Nova Roma! Yes, we tend to get rather
passionate about our discussions, but at least things
are never dull here. (g)

When you mention a police force--are you talking about
the Grain Inspectors, or something else? I would be
interested to learn more about that, too, as my former
career was in criminal justice.

---
Renata Corva

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Caesar on Neal Boortz
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:21:15 -0700 (PDT)

I've been listen to Neal for over 30 years.

He has had this on his webpage for years

"WARNING!
Do not believe anything you hear on my show, or
anything you read on the Internet unless it is
consistent with what you already know to be true -- or
you have actually taken the time to verify the
information with another source. That's called "doing
your homework."

A Few years ago when he was still local he had the
Atlanta Water Works phones ringing off the hooks after
announcing that the widely used solvent Dihydrogen
Oxide was present in Atlanta's Water supply.
Dihydrogen Oxide is H2O or water.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- Gaius Galerius Viator <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes:
>
> That doesn't sound like Caesar unless he lived in
> 20th century America.
>
> Valete.
>
>
> >>
> >>>From: "Charlie Collins" <cotta@spamcop.net>
> >>>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >>>To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> >>>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Caesar on Neal Boortz
> >>>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:04:06 -0500
> >>>
> >>>Salve,
> >>> Radio Talk Show Host Neal
> Boortz(www.boortz.com)
> >>>has a quote from Julius Caesar on his webpage. It
> says:
> >>>
> >>>"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in
> order to whip the
> >>>citizenry
> >>>into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed
> a double-edged sword.
> >>>It
> >>>both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the
> mind. And when the drums
> >>>of
> >>>war have reached a fever pitch and the blood
> boils with hate and the mind
> >>>has closed, the leader will have no need in
> seizing the rights of the
> >>>citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with
> fear and blinded by
> >>>patriotism, will offer up all of their rights
> unto the leader and gladly
> >>>so.
> >>>How do I know? For this is what I have done. And
> I am Caesar." - - Julius
> >>>Caesar
> >>>
> >>>I thought it was very interesting as he is a
> Libertarian
> >>>as I am.
> >>>
> >>>Sextus Cornelius Cotta
> >>>Propraetor
> >>>America Medioccidentalis Superior
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN
> Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Advice Needed
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	04 Aug 2002 22:32:31 -0300

Em Dom, 2002-08-04 às 21:32, L. Sicinius Drusus escreveu:
>
> --- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> <christer.edling@telia.com> wrote:
> > Salve Honorable Diana Apollonia (formerly Moravia)
> > Aventina!
> >
> > Accordin to a new law each Parefamilias sometime
> > next summer. If the
> > Paterfamilias of you old Gens will not register then
> > he will be
> > removed from the registers of Nova Ronma as far as I
> > understand. What
> > would happen then? I really don't know, Gens Moravia
> > would ceese to
> > exist, that much is clear, but then?
> >
> > Then is an example of an issue that should be
> > answered in the new
> > package of Gens legislation that Illustris Lucius
> > Sicinius Drusus has
> > written.
> >
> > Could You please look into this Illustris Lucius
> > Sicinius Drusus. A
> > situation as this one will probably be scarce, but
> > still it would be
> > a shanme if Honorable Diana Apollonia (formerly
> > Moravia) Aventin
> > couldn't return to her Gens and be the Mater of a
> > Moravia familia.
> >
> > >If anyone has any ideas on how I should proceed
> > from here, I would welcome
> > >the advice.
> > >
> > >Diana Apollonia (formerly Moravia) Aventina
>
> This is a problem that needs to be solved Without a
> citizen having to wait for a year.
>
> There is no way a Lex can cover all circumstances, nor
> do I think it desirable to try. I Think that in cases
> where a citizen can't contact a Paterfamilis she
> should be able to go before the Praetors who would
> summon the Paterfamilis to respond to the request, and
> if the Paterfamilis failed to answer the summons
> within 30 days that the Praetors be given the
> authority to act in Loco Parentis and approve or deny
> the request.
>

30 days being the normal time of payed vacations in most countries, this
seems a little short, 45 woud be better in my opinion.

> Protecting the authority of the Paterfamilis is one
> thing, having citizens suffer because a Paterfamilis
> ignores the duties of his postion is another.

Totally agreed,

Vale

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Exhibit on Roman women
From:	"pjane64" <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:41:07 -0000

Yale University Art Gallery is doing an exhibition of Roman art to
accompany the "I, Claudia" books about women's lives in the
Roman world. It sounds fabulous!

More here:

http://www.yale.edu/opa/ybc/v25.n2.news.07.html

I'd love to put together a Nova Roman gathering to see this!
Sibella Ambrosia, are you out there?

Patricia Cassia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A Classical Reading Plan
From:	"James LaSalle, Esq." <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:15:12 -0500

Don't forget to read Suetonius' "Twelve Caesars". Great gossip, with lots of
little details. Like Nero banning all pantomimes from Rome. I guess Nero had
his good side, too. I hope not to offend our friends in Gaul.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and
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entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
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original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaius Galerius Viator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] A Classical Reading Plan

> Salve Nerva;
>
> I Like your list. I heard some people speaking of adding to it. One
could
> always add, but if I were you I'd cross out a couple of titles there:
>
> Jewish and Christian writings, and confessions too.
>
> These are ok for the specialist, just like pre-Columbian archeology, and
> that's about it. And since we are in the subject, does anybody out there
> know if anybody ever wrote a biography of Horace.
>
> Valete omnes
>
> G. Galerius Viator
>
>
>
>
> >From: "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
> >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Nova-Roma] A Classical Reading Plan
> >Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:55:31 -0000
> >
> >Salvete,
> >
> > If you are like me, then you wish {1} that you were better
> >educated, and {2} would like to read in the ancient classics, but have
> >no idea where to begin, or you need some structure. If you are like
> >this, then this reading list may be of help for you.
> > This is a reading plan covering the age of Homer to Late Antiquity.
> > I made this list by comparing the syllabuses of some liberal arts
> >"Great Books" programs offered at St. Johns College, St. Thomas
> >Aquinas College, the Great Books of the Western World Ten Year Reading
> >Plan, and one or two other lists.
> >
> > These books can be read in any order you like! The authors are
> >listed in a rough chronological order most of the time, with some
> >exceptions. I grouped the mathematical selections together and most
> >of the philosophy together. There is also a section of Jewish and
> >Christian writings.
> >
> > A trained classicist may wonder why some books are not here, and
> >why others ARE here. But all I can say is that this is my reading
> >project for the next ten years or so, and that it is offered as a help
> >to any who may wish to join me. If you are interested, just print the
> >list out and have fun for a few years or more.
> >
> >Gaius Cassius Nerva
> >
> >HOMER
> >The Iliad, The Odyssey
> >
> >AESCHYLUS
> >Prometheus Bound, Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides
> >
> >SOPHOCLES
> >Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone, Ajax, Electra,
Philoctetes
> >
> >EURIPIDES
> >The Medea, Hippolytus, The Trojan Women, Electra, The Bacchae
> >
> >ARISTOPHANES
> >The Clouds, The Birds, The Frogs, Lysistrata, The Poet and the Women,
> >The Assemblywomen, Wealth
> >
> >HERODOTUS
> >The Histories
> >
> >THUCYDIDES
> >The Peloponnesian War
> >
> >PLATO
> >The Seventh Letter, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Meno, Theatetus, Ion, The
> >Symposium, Phaedrus, Sophist, Statesman, Gorgias, Philebus, Timaeus,
> >The Laws
> >
> >ARISTOTLE
> >Categories, On Interpretation, Prior Analytics, Posterior Analytics,
> >Physics, Metaphysics, On The Soul, Nicomachean Ethics, Politics,
> >Rhetoric, On Poetics
> >
> >HIPPOCRATES
> >The Oath, On Ancient Medicine, On Airs, Waters, and Places, The
> >Book of Prognostics, Of the Epidemics, The Law, On the Sacred Disease
> >
> >GALEN
> >On The Natural Faculties
> >
> >NICHOMACHUS OF GERASA
> >Introduction To Arithmetic
> >
> >EUCLID
> >Elements {book 1}
> >
> >ARCHIMEDES
> >Measurement of a Circle, On the Equilibrium of Planes {book 1} The
> >Sand-Reckoner,
> >On Floating Bodies {book 1}
> >
> >APOLLONIUS OF PERGA
> >On Conic Sections, Book One, propositions 1-15, Book 3, propositions
> >42-55
> >
> >PTOLEMY
> >The Almagest {Book 1, chapters 1-8}
> >
> >EPICURUS
> >Letter To Herodotus, Letter to Menoeceus
> >
> >LUCRETIUS
> >On the Nature of Things
> >
> >EPICTETUS
> >The Enchiridion, Discourses
> >
> >MARCUS AURELIUS
> >Meditations
> >
> >PLOTINUS
> >The Six Enneads
> >
> >VIRGIL
> >The Ecologues, The Aeneid
> >
> >CICERO
> >The Second Philippic, On Duties, The Republic, On the Nature of the
> >Gods, On Divination
> >
> >LIVY
> >The Early History of Rome
> >
> >POLYBIUS
> >The Histories
> >
> >SUETONIUS
> >Lives of the Twelve Caesars
> >
> >TACITUS
> >The Annals, The Histories
> >
> >PLUTARCH
> >Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans {selections}
> >Theseus
> >Romulus
> >Theseus and Romulus Compared
> >Lycurgus
> >Numa Pompilius
> >Lycurgus and Numa Compared
> >Solon
> >Pericles
> >Fabius
> >Pericles and Fabius Compared
> >Alcibiades
> >Coriolanus
> >Alcibiades and Coriolanus Compared
> >Aristides
> >Marcus Cato
> >Aristides and Cato Compared
> >Caius Marius
> >Sulla
> >Crassus
> >Pompey
> >Alexander
> >Caesar
> >Cato the Younger
> >Tiberius Gracchus
> >Caius Gracchus
> >Cicero
> >Antony
> >Marcus Brutus
> >
> >JEWISH and CHRISTIAN WRITINGS
> >Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Amos, Micah, Isaiah, Lamentations,
> >Ezekiel, Psalms
> >The Gospel of Luke, Acts, The Gospel of John, The Letters of Paul
> >{Galatians, 1st Corinthians, Romans, Ephesians, Philemon} The Letter
> >to the Hebrews, The Didache
> >
> >AUGUSTINE
> >The Confessions
> >
> >BOETHIUS
> >The Consolation of Philosophy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A Classical Reading Plan
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:31:45 -0000

Salvete,

First, for Aeternia and Patricia, by all means you may include this
list in the Musareum or on the website as you see fit. The list is no
copyrighted. I just made it as a kind of guide for people like myself
who might benefit from some kind of structure. And by all means add
the suggestions of Fortunatas.

As for the inclusion of the Jewish and Christian writings, I
included these for several reasons.

1. They appear in all of the syllabuses I checked.

2. Like it or not, they have had and still have a colossal impact on
the thoughts of the western world.

I disagree entirely that these are best left to the specialist.
Actually, these books were written for non-specialist audiences in the
most part. True, they are culturally and socially conditioned
works---but the same can be said for every other work in the list,
except perhaps the mathematical ones. They must not be left to the
specialist, for this is how liberal education actually died out. By
the early 20th century, most of these books listed were out of reach
of the ordinary reader. If one in a university did have to study
Plato, it was a matter of dissection for phililogical details, with
little attention devoted to Plato's ideas.

Lastly, I know from experience that these books are not for the
specialist. I am not a specialist, and I benefit from reading them.
I am now beginning book 5 of the Iliad, and not so long ago, there
was an attitude that this too was best left to the specialist.

So I choose to leave these books on the list. Readers can skip them
if they like. I think that is a mistake, but it is their choice.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Package Legislation
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:48:12 -0400

Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus Senatui Populoque Romano S.P.D.

Avete et Salvete,

Honorable Citizens, Senators, Magistrates, Pontifices, and others herein concerned. I have, after reading a post from a citizen, senator, and magistrate, come to the conclusion that, among the legislation of the gens reform, there is also some other needed legislation that should be proposed simultaneously with the gens legislation. So this would be what I ask (I'm only trying to help make Nova Roma the best it could be): I know everyone has some complaints, so complain to me. Apparently there's a problem with inactive patres-/matresfamiliae, I think L. Sicinius covered that in the reforms he proposed to the Consul Sulla, also I think he covered whatever other complaints we may have here in that too, but, for whatever complaints we would have concerning the internal structure of Nova Roma, incl. gentes and other things, send it all to me (privately): I'll listen! Because there are some of us, I know, myself sometimes included in this, who are afraid to voice our complaints and such on the main list, for fear of ostracism or other things, and that's understandable. But there are some things that need to be voiced that some are afraid, for some reason, to say. So I say, complain or talk or whatever to me. And you have my word, as a man and as a Roman, that I will listen and deeply consider what it is you have to say, and respond to whatever grievances and complaints you may have. And for the record, NO, I am not trying to campaign for the Tribunate, I'm just trying to be a helpful citizen. And remember, everyone, my inbox is always open to those who would seek my help.

Bene Valete,

Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus,
Civis Novae Romae

"Semper Sapiens et Cogitans, ut Cras Meliores Omnes Simus"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:27:56 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> > Absolute and utter nonsense. Republican Rome
> > constantly interfered
> > with the affairs of the family. The biggest source
> > of interference
> > was conscription. Tens of thousands of families
> > were forced into
> > penury as husbands and sons were conscripted into
> > the legions that
> > were led by inept generals who squandered their
> > blood. These
> > families found their ancestorial lands being gobbled
> > up into large
> > estates until they may have been "free" in name but
> > in reality no
> > more than slaves to the wealthy and powerful of
> > Rome. If that's not
> > state interference in the affairs of the family, I
> > don't know what is.
> >
>
> DRUSUS: Which Section of the Nova Roman Constitution
> grants the state the power to draft citizens into the
> Legios? Point that section out and I'll work for it's
> immediate repeal. Fail to pint it out and I'll
> consider your point about the draft to be a strawman.

Q. Cassius Calvus: I was under the impression that you were refering
that historically the Roman state did not interfer with the affairs
of the family, thus creating a historical basis for current Nova
Roman law. I was pointing out that the Mos Maiorum was conveniently
overlooked when it was convenient to do so politically and
economically. Another place I can historically point out that the
Mos Maiorum was completely ignored was during the Sullan Restoration
(Note: I am refering to the Historical Sulla not our current Junior
Consul) where by Sulla as Dictator extended penalties unto children
and grandchildren throwing two generations of innocents into penury.

If you wish to call my bringing forth historical fact that the old
Roman State did indeed ignore the Mos Maiorum concerning families
when convenient a strawman, then so be it. I find your reference to
find an obviously non-existant portion of the constitution to be
equally as much a strawman as you feel my point is. Rather than
argue this further, perhaps it would be better if we bring some
gasoline, matches, and marshmellows rather than fight amongst
ourselves?

>
> DRUSUS: Do NOT put words in my mouth. I said it was
> unnessacary, that the right exists, and any attempt to
> enforce the traditional rights would be unconstionual.

Q. Cassius Calvus: I must apologize to you Drusus, and I hope you
accept that apology. I confused you with someone else stating that
this lex is unconstitutional and in error thought you had changed
course. Please try to understand how confusing this can be at times
and that errors are made. You rightly point out that I am made an
error and do deeply apologize for my stupidity.

> DRUSUS: So instead of taking care of violations of
> voting rights the 1964 Civil rights act attempted to
> create a new "right" that did not exist, the "right"
> not to be discriminated against, which has led to
> racial quotas, and helped make lawsuits a growth
> industry. the 1964 law violated the rights of freedom
> of association, and the rights of a person to control
> his properity in an attempt to create a "right" of
> forcing people to accept you even if they don't like
> you.
>
> The Laws requiring Segration, and the impediments to
> Black Voting were a violation of Rights. The 1964 act
> went beyond what was nessacary to create new
> violations.

Hmmm, I would tend to agree with you that the 1964 law did have
unintended consequences to the point where the only group who's
rights can be legally violate are straight white males. But that is
a discussion we could take to private. You'd be surprised how much
we might agree on libertarian principles.

> DRUSUS"Nor does calling something a "right" on a scrap
> of papper make it into a right that the state should
> enforce. People have claimed the "right" to own
> slaves, and the "right" to have sex with their wives
> against their will, and states have enforced these
> "rights"
>
> I Can have Billionaire tattooed on my Podex, but it
> won't make me one. Labeling something a "right"
> dosen't make it one.

Q. Cassius Calvus: I would tend to agree with you on the point that
calling something a "right" doesn't make it a "right." I think
common sense needs to prevail when determining what is a "right"
However when any constitution says that citizens have a right and the
government acts contrary to that right or doesn't enforce that right,
the right might exist on paper but not in reality. I am grinning as
I say this and I say this in jest, you may have anything tattooed on
your Podex as long as I don't have to look at it.

> DRUSUS: The Junior Consul has informed me that my
> recomendations for Gens reform will be forwarded to
> the Senate for it's apprasial today.

Q. Cassius Calvus: That's a good start, but I can't see anything
getting out of the Senate and to the Comitae Centuriate, because if
it contains anything remotely worded to even infer what is in the
proposed Lex Octavia Salicia de Libertate Gentilium, our Junior
Consul has implied he will veto it and if it doesn't contain anything
remotely worded to even infer what is in the proposed Lex Octavia
Salicia de Libertate Gentilium then our Senior Consul has threatened
to veto it. I can't see any reform amendments or legislation coming
to the "floor" this year short of Dictatorship. Perhaps next year if
two consuls that are in agrement on the issue one way or the other
are elected then perhaps something will be brought forth to vote.

If I seemed harsh most of it came from being a little fed up with the
whole mess and the way things have degenerated and being unable to
see an amicable end in sight. I'm afraid I didn't help matters and
hope you can extend a little understanding and accept my additional
apologies where I may have offended you.

Pax,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:49:21 -0700 (PDT)

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
SNIP
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus: I would tend to agree with you
> on the point that
> calling something a "right" doesn't make it a
> "right." I think
> common sense needs to prevail when determining what
> is a "right"

Rights aren't a matter of common sense, but a
philosphical concept. The Concept developed from the
concept of Natural Law which was touched lightly on by
the Greeks and developed by the Romans. M. Tullius
Cicero's contributions to the development of the
concept of Natural Law stand above any other persons.
He developed the concept of a higher law (Rights) from
Stoic Philosphy, and this idea is one of the most
important contributions that we have from the Romans.

"There is in fact a true law - namely, right reason -
which is in accordance with nature, applies to all
men, and is unchangeable and eternal. By its commands
it summons men to the performance of their duties; by
its prohibitions it restrains them from doing wrong.
To invalidate this law by human legislation is never
morally right, nor is it permissible ever to restrict
its operation; and to annul it wholly is impossible."
M. Tullius Cicero, The Republic

The Concept of Rights grew from these ideas of Natural
Law's limits on the powers of the state, and Cicero
can rightfully be regarded as the father of the
concept of rights.

My problem with the introduction of "Rights" into Nova
Roma isn't that the concept is unroman. The Romans
discovered the concept. My problem is the modernist
view of the idea of rights is all too often an
emotional feeling rather than a solid philosphical
concept. Absurdities like the UN's declaration that
Paid Holidays are a "Right" is a result of divorcing
the concept of Rights from the Philosphy of Natural
Law that occured in the Modern World.

If the supporters of "Rights" want me to accept their
views they had better be prepared to present WHY X is
a right like a Roman, by an argument grounded in the
Philosphy of Natural Law, instead of the FeelGoodism
of the modern era where the "reason" something is a
right ammounts to wishes and whims.

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Advice Needed
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:26:20 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> wrote:
> Em Dom, 2002-08-04 às 21:32, L. Sicinius Drusus
> escreveu:
> >
> > --- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> > <christer.edling@telia.com> wrote:
> > > Salve Honorable Diana Apollonia (formerly
> Moravia)
> > > Aventina!
> > >
> > > Accordin to a new law each Parefamilias sometime
> > > next summer. If the
> > > Paterfamilias of you old Gens will not register
> then
> > > he will be
> > > removed from the registers of Nova Ronma as far
> as I
> > > understand. What
> > > would happen then? I really don't know, Gens
> Moravia
> > > would ceese to
> > > exist, that much is clear, but then?
> > >
> > > Then is an example of an issue that should be
> > > answered in the new
> > > package of Gens legislation that Illustris
> Lucius
> > > Sicinius Drusus has
> > > written.
> > >
> > > Could You please look into this Illustris Lucius
> > > Sicinius Drusus. A
> > > situation as this one will probably be scarce,
> but
> > > still it would be
> > > a shanme if Honorable Diana Apollonia (formerly
> > > Moravia) Aventin
> > > couldn't return to her Gens and be the Mater of
> a
> > > Moravia familia.
> > >
> > > >If anyone has any ideas on how I should proceed
> > > from here, I would welcome
> > > >the advice.
> > > >
> > > >Diana Apollonia (formerly Moravia) Aventina
> >
> > This is a problem that needs to be solved Without
> a
> > citizen having to wait for a year.
> >
> > There is no way a Lex can cover all circumstances,
> nor
> > do I think it desirable to try. I Think that in
> cases
> > where a citizen can't contact a Paterfamilis she
> > should be able to go before the Praetors who would
> > summon the Paterfamilis to respond to the request,
> and
> > if the Paterfamilis failed to answer the summons
> > within 30 days that the Praetors be given the
> > authority to act in Loco Parentis and approve or
> deny
> > the request.
> >
>
> 30 days being the normal time of payed vacations in
> most countries, this
> seems a little short, 45 woud be better in my
> opinion.
>
>
> > Protecting the authority of the Paterfamilis is
> one
> > thing, having citizens suffer because a
> Paterfamilis
> > ignores the duties of his postion is another.
>
> Totally agreed,
>
> Vale
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>

This Lex should solve Diana Apollonia's problem as
well as those of other citizens in a similar situation
because of absent Paters.

I. Any citizen who is 18 years of age or older, and
unable to contact a Paterfamilis or Materfamilis may
present a petition to a Praetor.
II. Apon recieving said petition the Praetor may
dismiss it or summon the Paterfamilis or Materfamilis
to answer the petition. The summons shall be delivered
to the last known email address and published on Nova
Roma's offical mail list.
III. If the Paterfamilis or Materfamilis responds to
the summons within 45 days, the Petition shall be
dismissed.
IV. If the Paterfamilis or Materfamilis fails to
respond to the summons within 45 days the Praetor
shall have the authority to act in Loco Parentis and
approve or deny the petition.

The Lex is limited in scope to only deal with problems
that adult citizens have because of inactive
Paters/Maters.

Manius Villius, If you wish I have no problem with you
promulgating this Lex at your convinence. Given the
complexities of Gens reform it will give the citizens
a chance to vote on it sooner than Gens reform and it
will serve as a protection for any citizen who may not
be covered under the Gens Reform Leges.

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:30:54 -0000

Salve Propraetor!

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> SNIP

First of all - because you are obviously intent on following the
classical Roman example to the letter - let me start with a classical
quote:

"et populus itaque Romanus partim suo proprio, partim communi omnium
hominum iure utitur."

I guess the UN conventions (like the International Covenant on
Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights) best fit that description. So
it IS important for us Romans to be clear about international law
obligations today.

>
> My problem with the introduction of "Rights" into Nova
> Roma isn't that the concept is unroman. The Romans
> discovered the concept. My problem is the modernist
> view of the idea of rights is all too often an
> emotional feeling rather than a solid philosphical
> concept. Absurdities like the UN's declaration that
> Paid Holidays are a "Right" is a result of divorcing
> the concept of Rights from the Philosphy of Natural
> Law that occured in the Modern World.
>
> If the supporters of "Rights" want me to accept their
> views they had better be prepared to present WHY X is
> a right like a Roman, by an argument grounded in the
> Philosphy of Natural Law, instead of the FeelGoodism
> of the modern era where the "reason" something is a
> right ammounts to wishes and whims.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>

"Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable
limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay."

You call this an absurdity? May I ask, whether you own a sweatshop?
Without this absurd right, work conditions that border on slavery
could be considered legal. As you as a specialist on the law of
nature surely will know:

"servitutes, quae sunt iuri naturali contrariae"

The distinction between "rights" and "remedies" is surely known to
you. But this does not mean that rights granted without immediate
remedies are irrelevant or pure "emotional feelings". They are
important tools for creating the remedies to tackle the underlying
problems. I work in an institution that constantly tries to bring
different third world countries in compliance with those human rights
expressed in the covenant. Without it we would not have a leg to
stand on (except natural law, which does not always appeal as an
argument to the Chinese).

Marcus Marcius Rex


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Procrustes
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 03:03:46 EDT

In a message dated 8/4/02 10:48:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, haase@konoko.net
writes:

> Nova Roma is better off without these mini-Procrustes, and, with
> the Lex Octavia Salicia, we will take away their hacksaws and
> smash their racks.
>
>

Oh man. You have to work on the rhetoric, Octavius. Cicero would not be
pleased.
QFM

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:08:00 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:

>
> Oh man. You have to work on the rhetoric, Octavius. Cicero would
not be
> pleased.
> QFM
>

Well, that may be a good thing, because to please the inflated ego of
Cicero surely would be a feat for anyone.

MMR

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 03:38:38 EDT

In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
richmal@attbi.com writes:

> Tens of thousands of families were forced into
> penury as husbands and sons were conscripted into the legions that
> were led by inept generals who squandered their blood.

Sigh. What history books have you been reading? Service in the Legiones of
Rome was expected. It was part of every citizens duty. There was never the
Government interfering.
It was your duty as any city state citizen. Rome wasn't the only city to use
a citizen based militia.
After the second Punic War, the soldiers came home from Spain, Carthage,
Macedonia and Syria rich with plunder. Many of them sold their farms, or
found their farms sold, since the families couldn't keep them up. Many found
they had no families, they had returned to the Manus of their fathers, or
many had gone to Rome. So the first problem facing the Senate was where to
settle these soldiers. After all they had served the State well in war, they
had been under arms, many since 215 BCE and here it was 195.
Usually, they took their remaining wealth and bought corner bars or crossroad
roadhouses, or formed companies that would build the tenements. Those who
didn't had two choices, starve or rejoin the maniples. It was because of
this surplus manpower lying around that the Senate began to think imperially.
Spain was to be pacified, Macedonia, and the Seleucid Empire had to watched,
Greece was constantly in tumoral between the intrigues of the Aetolian and
Achean leagues, Illyria had to be punished and Rome had to assist their ally
Rhodes in putting down piracy. So the manpower was needed, and many Romans
and Socii went back into the legiones quickly.
Sorry this answer was so long, but I wanted to explain more fully how Rome
started to became an Imperial power with a standing army. It was still many
years away from completion, but the first seeds were planted.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Advice Needed
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 03:44:54 EDT

In a message dated 8/4/02 5:33:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> I Think that in cases
> where a citizen can't contact a Paterfamilis she
> should be able to go before the Praetors who would
> summon the Paterfamilis to respond to the request, and
> if the Paterfamilis failed to answer the summons
> within 30 days that the Praetors be given the
> authority to act in Loco Parentis and approve or deny
> the request.
>

I concur. If the Paterfamilias has abandoned his position, then the Praetors
could award the position to the next Senior family member the same as if
there had been his death.
Cicero spoke of several such cases. It would have to witnessed and recorded
by the Censores.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus,
Ex Praetor Urbanus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Edictum Propraetoricium LV about the appointment of five Caputi
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:02:12 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thules

Edictum Propraetoricium LV about the appointment of five Capites
Generis Doctrinae and two Praeceptores of the Academia Thules ad
Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

The Academia is growing and it is a great pleasure for me, Caeso
Fabius Quintilianus, to appoint these Honorable citizens to these
very important positions within Provincia Thule and the Cohors
Propraetoris (The Propraetorian Staff, Provincial Government)!

I, as a Nova Roman citizen within the Provincia Thule, am proud to
see the Gravitas and Pietas these citizens shows and I am very glad
that they has accepted these very important positions as Capites
Generis Doctrinae!

One is from Thule, one from Nova Britannia, one from Germania and two
from Hispania. The Academia is continuing to become more and more
international, as is Nova Roma, this brings me a special joy.

Some of these cives must at this stage take responsibility for more
than one Genus Doctrinae, I am very grateful to see them take this
responsibility.

I also use this occasion to appoint two more Praeceptores. The
Praeceptores are the back-bones of the Academia and I am equally
grateful because they take on this burden.

I. The following citizens are appointed to lead the following Generes
Doctrinae:

I.I. Caput Generis Doctrinae Philosophiae Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus
I.II. Caput Generis Doctrinae Historiae Illustris Gnaeus Salix Astur
I.III. Caput Generis Doctrinae Religionis Illustris Gnaeus Salix Astur
I.IV. Caput Generis Doctrinae Legis Honorable Marcus Marcius Rex
I.V. Caput Generis Doctrinae Archaeologiae Illustris Marcus Minucius Audens
I.VI. Caput Generis Doctrinae Artis Militaris Illustris Marcus Minucius Audens
I.VII. Caput Generis Doctrinae Latini Honorable Claudius Salix Davianus

II. The following citizens are appointed Praeceptores at the Academia Thules:

II.I. Honorable Marcus Marcius Rex
II.II. Illustris Gnaeus Salix Astur

III. Above appointed officials are asked to observe that they is
bound by the "Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of
Thule" as it was published on the 15th of April 2001.

IV. As officials of Provincia Thule they are asked to, within on
week of their appointment to swear the public oath shown on
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html using both their
Nova Roman name and within parenthesis their macro-national (real)
name.

The Oath must be published on the NovaRomaThule List and the Nova
Roma Main List!

V. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given August the 5th, in the year of the consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix 2755 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules
--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"

************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Hello
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 04:13:49 EDT

In a message dated 8/4/02 6:04:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
james@esperantohouston.org writes:

> Currently, I'm trying to find detailed info about the police force that
> Augustus sat up.

The Vigiles are explained pretty well in Suetonius but not in Augustus.
rather in Claudius life.

The bare bones:
There were seven cohortes of 7-10 centuries. Octavius created then in 6 CE
and they may have been 1000 strong per cohors. We know they were larger when
comparied to army cohors (average 425), since we have some of their pay
records.

They were to patrol at night, armed with a gladius, a lantern, and a patrol
acting as a firefighting brigade with buckets and brooms.
Rome was divided in 14 districts with each one had an emergency station that
acted as a holding tank for captured cutpads and law breakers. In the
morning they would be transfered to the main jail at the mamertime, to await
trial.
The command structure was a Prefect to which each tribune of a cohors
answered to, while we have the pay records of seven centurions of a Vigiles,
which might indicate that this cohors only had 560, (80 being the average
strength of a century.) Tranjus added a subprefect Ulpanius in the third
century tells us.
This were lower class citizens, and could have forigners in the Ranks. We
have a decree from Tiberius giving Roman citzenship to those who completed 6
years of service.
Ulpanius says this had been reduced to three years by the third century.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of office
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:23:37 -0000

I, Marcus Marcius Rex (Marcus Heinz) do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Marcus Marcius Rex swear to honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Marcius Rex swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Marcius Rex swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Marcius Rex further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the offices of Caput Generis Doctrinae Legis and
Praeceptor Academiae Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the positions of Caput Generis Doctrinae Legis and
Praeceptor Academiae Thules and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 01:25:06 -0700 (PDT)

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> Salve Propraetor!
SNIP
>
> "Everyone has the right to rest and leisure,
> including reasonable
> limitation of working hours and periodic holidays
> with pay."
>
> You call this an absurdity? May I ask, whether you
> own a sweatshop?
> Without this absurd right, work conditions that
> border on slavery
> could be considered legal. As you as a specialist on
> the law of
> nature surely will know:
>
> "servitutes, quae sunt iuri naturali contrariae"
>
> The distinction between "rights" and "remedies" is
> surely known to
> you. But this does not mean that rights granted
> without immediate
> remedies are irrelevant or pure "emotional
> feelings". They are
> important tools for creating the remedies to tackle
> the underlying
> problems. I work in an institution that constantly
> tries to bring
> different third world countries in compliance with
> those human rights
> expressed in the covenant. Without it we would not
> have a leg to
> stand on (except natural law, which does not always
> appeal as an
> argument to the Chinese).
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex

Sweatshop? Slavery?
Thank you for proving my assertation that the
modernist view of rights is based on emotional whims
rather than Philosphical concepts.

The Absuridity you mention is a violation of the right
of association, that is the right of two men to come
to a mutal peaceful agreement on the terms they will
associate with each other. Your "right" is a claim
that one man is allowed to introduce the element of
force into a relationship and dictate the terms of the
relationship.

The workers in the "Sweatshops" the leftists are so
fond of citing are free to revert to the condition
they lived in before the "sweatshop" opened by
asserting their right to end the association and
walking out the door. IF the owners of the shop
introduce the element of physical force, then the
workers have the right to use force under the right of
self defense, not to dictate the terms of the
association, but to end it. That is the only remedy
open in a world where rights are respected.

No matter how hard you try to label it as such, no
matter how many emotions you try to raise, there is NO
such thing as a "right" to force another human to do
your bidding, and that is the "right" you are
attempting to claim for yourself and the workers in
the "sweatshops". Your right in the matter is the same
as the workers, freedom of association, the right to
refuse to buy the products produced in the
"sweatshops".

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Propraetoricium LV about the appointment of five Caputi Generis Doctrinae and two Praeceptores of Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 01:31:46 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,

I am very pleased to see the Academia growing so well.
Congratulations to your dedicated and skillfull team (and to yourself, of
course...)

Vale,

> The Academia is growing and it is a great pleasure for me, Caeso
> Fabius Quintilianus, to appoint these Honorable citizens to these
> very important positions within Provincia Thule and the Cohors
> Propraetoris (The Propraetorian Staff, Provincial Government)!

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Acting Praefectus for France
French Translator

Terrarum dea gentiumque, Roma
Cui par est nihil et nihil secundum.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:36:04 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:

Salve Propraetor,

What are you talking about? Are you living in a world of fantasies or
rather paranoid delusions (maybe even in Montana)? I am afraid that
such utter nonsense does not deserve an answer.

Marcus Marcius Rex

>
>
> Sweatshop? Slavery?
> Thank you for proving my assertation that the
> modernist view of rights is based on emotional whims
> rather than Philosphical concepts.
>
> The Absuridity you mention is a violation of the right
> of association, that is the right of two men to come
> to a mutal peaceful agreement on the terms they will
> associate with each other. Your "right" is a claim
> that one man is allowed to introduce the element of
> force into a relationship and dictate the terms of the
> relationship.
>
> The workers in the "Sweatshops" the leftists are so
> fond of citing are free to revert to the condition
> they lived in before the "sweatshop" opened by
> asserting their right to end the association and
> walking out the door. IF the owners of the shop
> introduce the element of physical force, then the
> workers have the right to use force under the right of
> self defense, not to dictate the terms of the
> association, but to end it. That is the only remedy
> open in a world where rights are respected.
>
> No matter how hard you try to label it as such, no
> matter how many emotions you try to raise, there is NO
> such thing as a "right" to force another human to do
> your bidding, and that is the "right" you are
> attempting to claim for yourself and the workers in
> the "sweatshops". Your right in the matter is the same
> as the workers, freedom of association, the right to
> refuse to buy the products produced in the
> "sweatshops".
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Propraetoricium LV about the appointment
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:53:32 +0200

Salve Illustris Sextus Apollonius Scipio!

I am glad to have your support! :-) After the Nova Roman Rally in
Belgium I hope to have the pleasure to also include You into the
Academia Staff.

>Salve Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
>
>I am very pleased to see the Academia growing so well.
>Congratulations to your dedicated and skillfull team (and to yourself, of
>course...)
>
>Vale,
>
>> The Academia is growing and it is a great pleasure for me, Caeso
>> Fabius Quintilianus, to appoint these Honorable citizens to these
>> very important positions within Provincia Thule and the Cohors
>> Propraetoris (The Propraetorian Staff, Provincial Government)!
>
>
>=====
>Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>Propraetor Galliae
>Sodalitas Egressus, Acting Praefectus for France
>French Translator

--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"

************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Propraetoricium LV about the appointment of five Caputi Generis Doctrinae and two Praeceptores of Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 02:22:23 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,

since you talk about it, I am currently working on a project that I will
present during our Meeting on Friday night in Tongeren. (I hope I will be ready
by then...) This project will hopefully set up new ideas for Nova Roma and
especially for Europe. (although please do not expect a very extended proposal
as I have had only one week to think and write about it...)

Respectfully,

> I am glad to have your support! :-) After the Nova Roman Rally in
> Belgium I hope to have the pleasure to also include You into the
> Academia Staff.

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Acting Praefectus for France
French Translator

Terrarum dea gentiumque, Roma
Cui par est nihil et nihil secundum.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:35:13 -0000

Salve,

> The Absuridity you mention is a violation of the right
> of association, that is the right of two men to come
> to a mutal peaceful agreement on the terms they will
> associate with each other. Your "right" is a claim
> that one man is allowed to introduce the element of
> force into a relationship and dictate the terms of the
> relationship.

By what philosophy of natural law does one derive the right of
association?

> The workers in the "Sweatshops" the leftists are so
> fond of citing are free to revert to the condition
> they lived in before the "sweatshop" opened by
> asserting their right to end the association and
> walking out the door.

That is wonderful in theory, but when the option is slavery in brand
new clothing over starvation.... Philosophy doesn't put bread on the
table and food in starving children's mouths. I tend to agree with
the person who wrote; "Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box, and
religion is a spot on a dog." I take plain and simple common sense
over philosophical nonsense.

Pax,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:49:35 -0700 (PDT)

Note the the response is emotional rather than
logical. A frantic assertation of insanity rather than
an attempt to prove the unprovable assertation that
some men have a "right" to force other men to obey
their will.

The lack of any "reason" other than a whim driven by
an emotional response to a situation and an arbitray
assertation of a "right" to use force to correct that
situation is why I have a problem with modern "rights"
and oppose their introduction into Nova Roma.

Rights are a concept derived from Natural Law, and if
you can't prove that "X" is a Right grounded in
Natural Law, then all you have done is misapply the
label "Right" to a whim in an attempt to increase it's
emotional appeal in the political arena.

L. Sicinius Drusus

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> Salve Propraetor,
>
> What are you talking about? Are you living in a
> world of fantasies or
> rather paranoid delusions (maybe even in Montana)? I
> am afraid that
> such utter nonsense does not deserve an answer.
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
>
> >
> >
> > Sweatshop? Slavery?
> > Thank you for proving my assertation that the
> > modernist view of rights is based on emotional
> whims
> > rather than Philosphical concepts.
> >
> > The Absuridity you mention is a violation of the
> right
> > of association, that is the right of two men to
> come
> > to a mutal peaceful agreement on the terms they
> will
> > associate with each other. Your "right" is a claim
> > that one man is allowed to introduce the element
> of
> > force into a relationship and dictate the terms of
> the
> > relationship.
> >
> > The workers in the "Sweatshops" the leftists are
> so
> > fond of citing are free to revert to the condition
> > they lived in before the "sweatshop" opened by
> > asserting their right to end the association and
> > walking out the door. IF the owners of the shop
> > introduce the element of physical force, then the
> > workers have the right to use force under the
> right of
> > self defense, not to dictate the terms of the
> > association, but to end it. That is the only
> remedy
> > open in a world where rights are respected.
> >
> > No matter how hard you try to label it as such, no
> > matter how many emotions you try to raise, there
> is NO
> > such thing as a "right" to force another human to
> do
> > your bidding, and that is the "right" you are
> > attempting to claim for yourself and the workers
> in
> > the "sweatshops". Your right in the matter is the
> same
> > as the workers, freedom of association, the right
> to
> > refuse to buy the products produced in the
> > "sweatshops".
> >
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > http://health.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Overloaded
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:08:26 -0400 (EDT)

Nova Roma Friends;

I have been attending a reenactment for the last four days in
Massachusetts and have not been home during that time. I have manage to
establish a sleeping system which can accomadate my physical needs and
am pleased to report that I am able to "stay on station" longer now
without recourse to an electical source.

Hence, my rathersmall mail-box has been again overloaded by long Spam
Mail and many nessages. If you have tried to send my personal mail,
within thhat period and it was returned, I would ask you to consder
sending it again. My thanks for your kind onsideration.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT)

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> > The Absuridity you mention is a violation of the
> right
> > of association, that is the right of two men to
> come
> > to a mutal peaceful agreement on the terms they
> will
> > associate with each other. Your "right" is a claim
> > that one man is allowed to introduce the element
> of
> > force into a relationship and dictate the terms of
> the
> > relationship.
>
> By what philosophy of natural law does one derive
> the right of
> association?

The Right to form Mutal associations for the good of
all partys is derived from the right to life. It is
also the basis for free governments.

>
> > The workers in the "Sweatshops" the leftists are
> so
> > fond of citing are free to revert to the condition
> > they lived in before the "sweatshop" opened by
> > asserting their right to end the association and
> > walking out the door.
>
> That is wonderful in theory, but when the option is
> slavery in brand
> new clothing over starvation.... Philosophy doesn't
> put bread on the
> table and food in starving children's mouths. I
> tend to agree with
> the person who wrote; "Philosophy is the talk on a
> cereal box, and
> religion is a spot on a dog." I take plain and
> simple common sense
> over philosophical nonsense.
>
> Pax,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>
Again we see a response based on emotion rather than
logic. Construction of a shop that workers may or may
not choose to work in is not slavery, and the
misapplication of the term is an insult to people who
have endured true chattel slavery.

If you are going to reject "philosophical nonsense"
then please refrain from using the term "rights" which
is a philosophical term.

Your emotions are not a blank check to engage in the
use of force.

L. Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:00:26 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > By what philosophy of natural law does one derive
> > the right of
> > association?
>
> The Right to form Mutal associations for the good of
> all partys is derived from the right to life. It is
> also the basis for free governments.
>

Two questions:

1) How does the Right to form Mutal associations derive from the
right of life?

2) How does one prove that the right to life even exists?

Pax,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:23:26 -0700 (PDT)

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > By what philosophy of natural law does one
> derive
> > > the right of
> > > association?
> >
> > The Right to form Mutal associations for the good
> of
> > all partys is derived from the right to life. It
> is
> > also the basis for free governments.
> >
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) How does the Right to form Mutal associations
> derive from the
> right of life?

1. Mutal associations provide for a common means to
preserve life.
>
> 2) How does one prove that the right to life even
> exists?

It is the fundemental assumption from which all other
rights are derived. Without the Right to Life there
are no rights and it's pointless to interject
something that dosen't exist into Nova Roma.

L. Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Volubilis
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:34:15 -0400 (EDT)

Roman Citizens interested in Roman History / Culture;

The Roman City of Volubilis is situated about 18 miles from Meknes, 36
miles from Fez, and only a couple of miles from Moulay Idriss Zerhoun.
It sits at an altitude of 400 meters on a rich triangular plain,
bordered on two sides by small rivers (Oed Fertassa and Oed Khomaine).
Arabs call Volubilis -- "Oualili," "Oualila," and "Kar Pharoun"
(Pharaoh's Palace); names that have been attested to by Latin epigraghs,
Arab written sources, and excavated coins, from the Idrissid period and
before.

Volubilis grew and prospered from the third century B.C. to B.C. 40,
under the successive rule of independent Moorish Kings (Bocchus the
Elder, Bogud I, Bogud II). From this period several monuments have been
uncovered and identfied; namely temples in the Mauretanian-Punic
tradition and a mysterious tumulus. After the assassination of King
Ptolemy in B.C. 40 by Caligula and the crushing of a revolt by Ademon in
ancient Mauretania, Emperor Claudius annexed the region, dividing it
into two parts: one to the West in Tingi (Tangier) as it's capitol, the
other to the East with Caesara (in Algeria) as it's capitol. (Note 1)
Volubilis was then raised to the rank of a municipality.

>From 40 to 285, Volubilis expanded spectacularly. During the first
century came the major urban structures, such as the spacious roads
(Deumani and Cardines) and the public monuments (temples and thermal
baths). The next century saw further developments in the urban tissue;
most importantly, the wall surrounding the city was founded by Marcus
Aurelius (168-169), together with the eight major gates linkng the city
to the outside world. The monument-filled center (The Forum, The
Bascilica, The Capitol and the Triumphal Arch) came about during the
Severius Dynasty between 193 and 235. Also datig back to this period
are the stately homes with peristyles and pools, the great mosacics
(Orpheus Mosaics, the Works of Hercules, Dia's Bath, Neriedes are some
of the well-preserved and oft-visited in-situ mosaics), numerous
bakeries and about one hundred oil presses attesting to a thriving
economy for this Roman Outpost.

Toward the end of the thrd century, an era of decline which was very
nearly caused by official action, begun with the order of Emperor
Diocletes to the Roman administration and the army to vacate Volubilis
and the southern region in favor of the northern coastal posts of
Mogadoe, Sale, and Loukos. From then on, what remained of the
population shifted to the West of Caracala's Arch, and proceeded to
raise a protective wall during the sixth century and even to erect
public structures. Some Latin inscriptions found in the city's
neocropolis from the period 599-655 indicate some Christianization of
the population. Early in the eighth century the city came under Islamic
authority, and domination, and finally after 1086 Arab historians refer
to Volubiis only as an abondoned city in ruin.

After 1915, a date at which archealogical digs began at Volubilis at the
initiative of the French Protectorate, the world has come to discover
the long history, the unique archetechture, and the rich and varigated
artistic legacy of a city that harbored successive and successful
communities for centuries. In 1997, this legacy won the city (most
deservedly) the classification of a "World Heritage Site."

(Note 1 -- The original Province of Africa was formed after the defeat
of Carthage in 146 B.C. and corresponded roughly to Northeast Tunisia.
After the Battle of Thapsus in 46 B.C., Julius Caesar added a further
area, Africa Nova (New Africa) to the original province by then called
Africa Vetus (Old Africa). Under Augustus, further gains were
reorganized into a new province, Africa Proconsularis, which extended
from Numidia in the West to Cyrenaica in the East. The coastal area of
Numidia and Mauretania appears to have been incorporated into Aftrica
Proconsularis soon thereafter, forming a large senatorial province.
Mauretania came under Roman control in 40 B.C. but was not fully subdued
until several years later. In 42 B.C. Mauretania was split into two
imperial provinces: Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana.
Numidia was established as a separate imperial province under Severus.
In Diocletian's reorganization, Africa was divided into seven new
provinces in the diocese of Africa, while Mauritania Tingitana became
part of the diocese of Hispanae. ----- Ref.--"Handbook To Life In
Ancient Rome," Adkins and Adkins.)

Reference:

African Travel Magazine
ATA Symposium----Fez, Morocco

Respectfully Submitted;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A Classical Reading Plan
From:	"Julilla" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:39:46 -0000

> It may also be worth noting that we have a Camenaeum at our own
> website
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/camenaeum/
>
> which also has a few links
>
> (which obviously need some updates and additions)
>
> MMR

... Indeed it did, and now that I'm back from a long holiday, I
started getting my brains back into work mode by updating the
existing links to the works listed. This has been done, so all links
in the Camenaeum should now function properly. The addition of new
works must needs be the work of another day.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:56:45 -0000

Salve,

Thank you for answering my questions. Though I prefer the term
fundamental postulation rather than assumption since too many peeople
think assumption means to guess.

Pax,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > By what philosophy of natural law does one
> > derive
> > > > the right of
> > > > association?
> > >
> > > The Right to form Mutal associations for the good
> > of
> > > all partys is derived from the right to life. It
> > is
> > > also the basis for free governments.
> > >
> >
> > Two questions:
> >
> > 1) How does the Right to form Mutal associations
> > derive from the
> > right of life?
>
> 1. Mutal associations provide for a common means to
> preserve life.
> >
> > 2) How does one prove that the right to life even
> > exists?
>
> It is the fundemental assumption from which all other
> rights are derived. Without the Right to Life there
> are no rights and it's pointless to interject
> something that dosen't exist into Nova Roma.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Volubilis
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:11:56 -0400

Salvete Senatori Audens et Omnes!

Thank you for the historical information! I had the opportunity to visit
Volubilis back in 1988 when I was an exchange student to the American
School of Tangiers. It was a fantastic outing, which culminated in our
having to flee to our cars due to a sudden dust/sand storm! The city was
mostly foundations, though there was a triumphal arch still standing,
and there were several mostly intact floor mosaics that had bee cleared.
I consider this trip as one of the key influences in the development of
my love and interest in all things Roman.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net [mailto:jmath669642reng@webtv.net]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:34 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: sodalitasmilitarium@yahoogroups.com; egressus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Volubilis

Roman Citizens interested in Roman History / Culture;

The Roman City of Volubilis is situated about 18 miles from Meknes, 36
miles from Fez, and only a couple of miles from Moulay Idriss Zerhoun.
It sits at an altitude of 400 meters on a rich triangular plain,
bordered on two sides by small rivers (Oed Fertassa and Oed Khomaine).
Arabs call Volubilis -- "Oualili," "Oualila," and "Kar Pharoun"
(Pharaoh's Palace); names that have been attested to by Latin epigraghs,
Arab written sources, and excavated coins, from the Idrissid period and
before.

Volubilis grew and prospered from the third century B.C. to B.C. 40,
under the successive rule of independent Moorish Kings (Bocchus the
Elder, Bogud I, Bogud II). From this period several monuments have been
uncovered and identfied; namely temples in the Mauretanian-Punic
tradition and a mysterious tumulus. After the assassination of King
Ptolemy in B.C. 40 by Caligula and the crushing of a revolt by Ademon in
ancient Mauretania, Emperor Claudius annexed the region, dividing it
into two parts: one to the West in Tingi (Tangier) as it's capitol, the
other to the East with Caesara (in Algeria) as it's capitol. (Note 1)
Volubilis was then raised to the rank of a municipality.

>From 40 to 285, Volubilis expanded spectacularly. During the first
century came the major urban structures, such as the spacious roads
(Deumani and Cardines) and the public monuments (temples and thermal
baths). The next century saw further developments in the urban tissue;
most importantly, the wall surrounding the city was founded by Marcus
Aurelius (168-169), together with the eight major gates linkng the city
to the outside world. The monument-filled center (The Forum, The
Bascilica, The Capitol and the Triumphal Arch) came about during the
Severius Dynasty between 193 and 235. Also datig back to this period
are the stately homes with peristyles and pools, the great mosacics
(Orpheus Mosaics, the Works of Hercules, Dia's Bath, Neriedes are some
of the well-preserved and oft-visited in-situ mosaics), numerous
bakeries and about one hundred oil presses attesting to a thriving
economy for this Roman Outpost.

Toward the end of the thrd century, an era of decline which was very
nearly caused by official action, begun with the order of Emperor
Diocletes to the Roman administration and the army to vacate Volubilis
and the southern region in favor of the northern coastal posts of
Mogadoe, Sale, and Loukos. From then on, what remained of the
population shifted to the West of Caracala's Arch, and proceeded to
raise a protective wall during the sixth century and even to erect
public structures. Some Latin inscriptions found in the city's
neocropolis from the period 599-655 indicate some Christianization of
the population. Early in the eighth century the city came under Islamic
authority, and domination, and finally after 1086 Arab historians refer
to Volubiis only as an abondoned city in ruin.

After 1915, a date at which archealogical digs began at Volubilis at the
initiative of the French Protectorate, the world has come to discover
the long history, the unique archetechture, and the rich and varigated
artistic legacy of a city that harbored successive and successful
communities for centuries. In 1997, this legacy won the city (most
deservedly) the classification of a "World Heritage Site."

(Note 1 -- The original Province of Africa was formed after the defeat
of Carthage in 146 B.C. and corresponded roughly to Northeast Tunisia.
After the Battle of Thapsus in 46 B.C., Julius Caesar added a further
area, Africa Nova (New Africa) to the original province by then called
Africa Vetus (Old Africa). Under Augustus, further gains were
reorganized into a new province, Africa Proconsularis, which extended
from Numidia in the West to Cyrenaica in the East. The coastal area of
Numidia and Mauretania appears to have been incorporated into Aftrica
Proconsularis soon thereafter, forming a large senatorial province.
Mauretania came under Roman control in 40 B.C. but was not fully subdued
until several years later. In 42 B.C. Mauretania was split into two
imperial provinces: Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana.
Numidia was established as a separate imperial province under Severus.
In Diocletian's reorganization, Africa was divided into seven new
provinces in the diocese of Africa, while Mauritania Tingitana became
part of the diocese of Hispanae. ----- Ref.--"Handbook To Life In
Ancient Rome," Adkins and Adkins.)

Reference:

African Travel Magazine
ATA Symposium----Fez, Morocco

Respectfully Submitted;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	05 Aug 2002 15:26:28 -0300

Human Rights are defined by the Universal declaration of Human Rights.
Any civilized nation which hopes to be recognized as such by the other
nations should adhere to those rights.
Currently it seems that nearly only Canada respects human rights, all
other actual nations disrespect one or the other of those rights.

IF we want to be eventually recognized as a true nation we definitively
should respect those rights. Since we are a new nation we have no
arguments for desrespecting one of those based on "this was always like
that in our country".

"Natural rights" is a much less well defined concept than the "Human
Rights". Everybody seems to have a totally different notion of "Natural
Rights" depending on his political orientation. Rightist think that
economic power is no use of force, Proudhon fellt that "Property is
Robbery" all based on the nebulous "Natural Rights".

Let us stay with some concrete rights: the ones expressed in the
"Universal Declaration". Which eventually we will have to accept in
order to entre the greater college of Nations: ONU.

Vale

Manius Villius Limitanus

On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 11:49, L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> Note the the response is emotional rather than
> logical. A frantic assertation of insanity rather than
> an attempt to prove the unprovable assertation that
> some men have a "right" to force other men to obey
> their will.
>
> The lack of any "reason" other than a whim driven by
> an emotional response to a situation and an arbitray
> assertation of a "right" to use force to correct that
> situation is why I have a problem with modern "rights"
> and oppose their introduction into Nova Roma.
>
> Rights are a concept derived from Natural Law, and if
> you can't prove that "X" is a Right grounded in
> Natural Law, then all you have done is misapply the
> label "Right" to a whim in an attempt to increase it's
> emotional appeal in the political arena.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> --- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Salve Propraetor,
> >
> > What are you talking about? Are you living in a
> > world of fantasies or
> > rather paranoid delusions (maybe even in Montana)? I
> > am afraid that
> > such utter nonsense does not deserve an answer.
> >
> > Marcus Marcius Rex
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sweatshop? Slavery?
> > > Thank you for proving my assertation that the
> > > modernist view of rights is based on emotional
> > whims
> > > rather than Philosphical concepts.
> > >
> > > The Absuridity you mention is a violation of the
> > right
> > > of association, that is the right of two men to
> > come
> > > to a mutal peaceful agreement on the terms they
> > will
> > > associate with each other. Your "right" is a claim
> > > that one man is allowed to introduce the element
> > of
> > > force into a relationship and dictate the terms of
> > the
> > > relationship.
> > >
> > > The workers in the "Sweatshops" the leftists are
> > so
> > > fond of citing are free to revert to the condition
> > > they lived in before the "sweatshop" opened by
> > > asserting their right to end the association and
> > > walking out the door. IF the owners of the shop
> > > introduce the element of physical force, then the
> > > workers have the right to use force under the
> > right of
> > > self defense, not to dictate the terms of the
> > > association, but to end it. That is the only
> > remedy
> > > open in a world where rights are respected.
> > >
> > > No matter how hard you try to label it as such, no
> > > matter how many emotions you try to raise, there
> > is NO
> > > such thing as a "right" to force another human to
> > do
> > > your bidding, and that is the "right" you are
> > > attempting to claim for yourself and the workers
> > in
> > > the "sweatshops". Your right in the matter is the
> > same
> > > as the workers, freedom of association, the right
> > to
> > > refuse to buy the products produced in the
> > > "sweatshops".
> > >
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	05 Aug 2002 15:27:56 -0300

On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 13:23, L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
> > Salve,
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > By what philosophy of natural law does one
> > derive
> > > > the right of
> > > > association?
> > >
> > > The Right to form Mutal associations for the good
> > of
> > > all partys is derived from the right to life. It
> > is
> > > also the basis for free governments.
> > >
> >
> > Two questions:
> >
> > 1) How does the Right to form Mutal associations
> > derive from the
> > right of life?
>
> 1. Mutal associations provide for a common means to
> preserve life.
> >
> > 2) How does one prove that the right to life even
> > exists?
>
> It is the fundemental assumption from which all other
> rights are derived. Without the Right to Life there
> are no rights and it's pointless to interject
> something that dosen't exist into Nova Roma.

You are then definitively against death penalty I think ?

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: COMITIA POPULI RESULTS
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:23:05 -0700 (PDT)

HAIL ROMA
Sir let me first say that you are a prince of men,It's nice to see a person give a pat on the back of the victory.You are a true gentleman.May the Gods show you kindness.
G.Porticus Brutis
quintuscassiuscalvus wrote: --- In Nova-Roma@y..., Matt Haase <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salvete Cives,
>
> Voting in the Comitia Populi Tributa has concluded. The results, as
> agreed upon by the Rogatores:
>
> for ROGATOR:
>
> Gnaeus Salix Galaicus - 19 Tribes:
> 2 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 15 17 20 22 24 25 27 29 31 33 34
> Quintus Cassius Calvus - 14 Tribes:
> 1 3 5 8 13 14 18 19 21 23 26 28 30 35
> Publius Caelius Orestes - 1 Tribe:
> 32
>
> Gnaeus Salix Galaicus is elected Rogator.

Salve Cives,

I would first like to thank all who turned out to vote in the
election. No matter for whom you voted, the most important thing is
that you voted. Let me be the first to extend my congratulations to
Gnaeus Salix Galaicus on his electorial victory. I would also like
to thank two other people in specific. First, I'd like to thank
Consul Marcus Octavius Germanicus, for accepting my offer to run for
the unexpired term of Rogator and placing me on the ballot. Secondly
I'd like to thank Senator Marcus Minucius Audens for his words of
wisdom when I needed them.

Pax,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Hello!
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:56:57 -0700 (PDT)

WHAT we have two Houstonian?NO NO my brother you have 11 Houstonians in Nova Roma!!The Gen. Portica,we all come from Houston "the best place on Gods green earth"Texas,a round the ship channel.Ok Nrothshore to be exact.Thank God for Brothers!
G.Porticus Brutis
"Chantal G. Whittington" wrote: Jim--Hey! It's good to find another Houstonian who's
in Nova Roma. :) Has your street turned into a
river, yet? Ours is trying to.

Welcome to Nova Roma! Yes, we tend to get rather
passionate about our discussions, but at least things
are never dull here. (g)

When you mention a police force--are you talking about
the Grain Inspectors, or something else? I would be
interested to learn more about that, too, as my former
career was in criminal justice.

---
Renata Corva

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"Amanda Bowen" <reason_prevails@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:21:16 -0500

>Well, that may be a good thing, because to please the inflated ego of
>Cicero surely would be a feat for anyone.

Think of it as something more to strive for, friend :)

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Decretum Procuratoris I about the bestowment of Gradus Academici
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:37:10 +0300

Ex Officio Procuratoris Academiae Thules

Decretum Procuratoris I about the bestowment of Gradus Academici

As I have been honored to have the position as Procurator and Praeses
et Triumvir in Academia Thules it is now my most pleasant duty to
announce the following Gradus Academici for the following citizens.

I. Doctor Honoris Causa
I.I Doctor Honoris Causa: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
This honorary title is granted to Marcus Octavius Germanicus because
of his important cooperation with and support to the founding of the
Academia Thules.

I.II Doctor Honoris Causa: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
This honorary title is granted to Senator Quintilianus for both the
co-founding of the Academia and his tireless work inside the Academia.

II. Doctor
These Doctorships are granted to the following citizens based both on
their work inside the Academia and their previous studies in other
universities.

II.I Doctor Historiam : Gnaeus Salix Astur
II.II Doctor Latinum : Claudius Salix Davianus
II.III Doctor Philosophiam : Caius Curius Saturninus
II.IV Doctor Religionem : Gnaeus Salix Astur
II.V Doctor Leges : Marcus Marcius Rex
II.VI Doctor Artem Militarem : Marcus Minucius Audens
II.VII Doctor Archeologiam : Marcus Minucius Audens

III. This decretum becomes effective immediately.

Given August the 5th, in the year of the consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix 2755 AUC.
--
Caius Curius Saturninus

Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Scriba Aedilis (Caeso Fabius Q.) Concursus

e-mail: c.curius@welho.com
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A Classical Reading Plan
From:	Krysialtemus@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:01:05 EDT

I agree with Gaius Cassius Nerva. To omit the Christian and Jewish writings
would be in essence skipping a major part of history. Other books on this
list appear to me to be tailored more for a "specialist" than these religious
works. After all, they were intentionally written for the masses. There is no
denying there contribution and vast importance to ancient history, wether you
agree with them or not. I am speaking as both a Doctoral candidate in Ancient
Sport History and Christian with a Jewish heritage. Caecilia Drusa Dalmatica


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of office
From:	"artabrus" <piteas@inicia.es>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:45:38 -0000

Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), hoc ipso facto
sollemniter IVRO Novae Romae decus defendere et semper pro Novae
Romae Populo atque Senatu agere.
Ut Novae Romae magistratus ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
Carneiro López), Romae deos deasque colere IVRO in omnibus publicae
vitae temporibus atque Romanas virtutes et ublica et privata vita
persequi.
Ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), Romanam
religionem favere et defendere IVRO ut Novae Romae Reipublicae
religionem et numquam agere ita ut eius status publicae
religionis aliquid detrimenti capiat.
Praeterea ego, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) IVRO
quam optime fungi officium muneris Rogatoris.
Meo Novae Romae civis honore et coram Populi Romani deis atque deabus
et eorum voluntate et favore, munus rogatoris ACCIPIO una cum
iuribus, privilegiis. munera atque officia quae meum munus comportat.

In Hispania Provincia, Nonis Augusti 2755 ab Vrbe condita.

--------------------------

I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro
Carneiro López), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
private life.
I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to uphold
and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.
I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López), swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus (Alejandro Carneiro López) further swear to
fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Rogator
to the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Rogator and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

In Hispania Provincia, Nonis Augusti 2755 ab Vrbe condita


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	"lucilla_titinia_antonia" <katcollins@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:50:07 -0000

i just wanted to say a quick hello. i'm new here, if it isn't already
obvious ;-)

so yeah. HI! heheh.

Kat

(http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4299)


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Hello!
From:	"Amanda Bowen" <reason_prevails@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:51:21 -0500

>WHAT we have two Houstonian?NO NO my brother you have 11 Houstonians in
>Nova Roma!!The Gen. Portica,we all come from Houston "the best place on
>Gods green earth"Texas,a round the ship channel.Ok Nrothshore to be
>exact.Thank God for Brothers!<

12, actually, as I wrote to Renata after seeing her message :) Northshore is
a bit far from me (other side, to the southwest, am I) but nice to see that
there are so many :)

Crispina

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:00:28 -0600

Ave,

Greetings, welcome, a new citizen? Any particular intrests regarding Rome?
Any questions? And have fun here, remember to have fun!

Vale Bene,
Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: lucilla_titinia_antonia
[mailto:katcollins@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:50 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] (unknown)

i just wanted to say a quick hello. i'm new here, if it
isn't already
obvious ;-)

so yeah. HI! heheh.

Kat

(http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4299)


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"n_cassius_niger" <menippus@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:49:05 -0000

Me miserum!

What he is talking about is legacy of Adam Smith (1723-1790), a man
who had a greater command of the Roman roots of Western Liberal
thought that you M. Marcius. Smith argued that "society" does not
simply equal the state; society is a complex web of relationships
between families, individuals, and the community. He also believed
that people do and should act out of enlightened self-interest...An
Epicurean idea. The Epicureans were also influential in Rome, just
as the Stoics were; however, it seems at times, Nova Roma only
accepts the Stoic contributions to the Roman world-view.
Nevertheless, /that/ is what he is talking about. In the future, M.
Marcius, I suggest that you do not attempt to hide your ignorance in
a veil of ad hominem attacks. I do not have the same luxury as you;
I am a teacher, and as such, I cannot "ignore" utter
nonsense...instead I teach my students to recognize the errors they
are making and show them how to correct them. I approach my students
with compassion and understanding, a much more effective way to
change the world than your sanctimonious crusade, M. Marcius.

Ut recte valeant!

N. Cassius Niger


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:54:31 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> wrote:
> Human Rights are defined by the Universal
> declaration of Human Rights.
> Any civilized nation which hopes to be recognized as
> such by the other
> nations should adhere to those rights.
> Currently it seems that nearly only Canada respects
> human rights, all
> other actual nations disrespect one or the other of
> those rights.

What is the UN? A group of Politicans promoting the
Agendas decreed by the Politicans who appointed them
to their posts. That declration is more concerned with
late 1940's global politics than any search for the
meaning of rights. If it is politically expediant to
apply the label "rights" to an agenda, you can count
on a pack of politicans to do so, however mis-applying
a label does not change the reality of the object that
was labeled.

>
> IF we want to be eventually recognized as a true
> nation we definitively
> should respect those rights. Since we are a new
> nation we have no
> arguments for desrespecting one of those based on
> "this was always like
> that in our country".
>
> "Natural rights" is a much less well defined concept
> than the "Human
> Rights". Everybody seems to have a totally different
> notion of "Natural
> Rights" depending on his political orientation.
> Rightist think that
> economic power is no use of force, Proudhon fellt
> that "Property is
> Robbery" all based on the nebulous "Natural Rights".

The failure of Modern Philosphy to identify the
aspects of natural law says more about the poor state
of philosphical thought for the past 200 years than
about the existance of Natural Law.

>
> Let us stay with some concrete rights: the ones
> expressed in the
> "Universal Declaration". Which eventually we will
> have to accept in
> order to entre the greater college of Nations: ONU.
>
An Arbitray collection of Rights mixed with whims are
"concrete" because they were endorsed by political
hacks? If a group of Politicans decreed that there is
a right to eliminate "inferior" races would you accept
that as a "right"?

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Procrustes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:09:48 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> wrote:
> On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 13:23, L. Sicinius Drusus
> wrote:
> >
> > --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
> wrote:
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> > > <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > By what philosophy of natural law does one
> > > derive
> > > > > the right of
> > > > > association?
> > > >
> > > > The Right to form Mutal associations for the
> good
> > > of
> > > > all partys is derived from the right to life.
> It
> > > is
> > > > also the basis for free governments.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Two questions:
> > >
> > > 1) How does the Right to form Mutal
> associations
> > > derive from the
> > > right of life?
> >
> > 1. Mutal associations provide for a common means
> to
> > preserve life.
> > >
> > > 2) How does one prove that the right to life
> even
> > > exists?
> >
> > It is the fundemental assumption from which all
> other
> > rights are derived. Without the Right to Life
> there
> > are no rights and it's pointless to interject
> > something that dosen't exist into Nova Roma.
>
> You are then definitively against death penalty I
> think ?
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
Yes.
On an Emotional level there are times anger causes me
to feel like personally applying it, as in a recent
case in the USA where a lowlife Kidnapped, Raped and
Murdered a 5 year old child, but that would be letting
the emotions caused by my anger at the vile crime
overcome logic, and the law should be based on logic,
not on vengance driven by passions.

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Slippery Slope (was Gens Hopping)
From:	MVariusPM@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:04:39 EDT

Salveto,

In response to Sulla's reply: I was actually not questioning your motives
at all. I was merely stating my opinion and point of view on the points you
were putting forward. I try very hard to not direct my posts to any one
individual. Everyone has a different perspective and is certainly entitled to
their opinions. And, I don't make a practice of "twisting" words. On the
contrary, I try to be as clear as possible and reference back to what another
individual is saying if I disagree with the material being posited.

Personally, I've never been a fan of Benthem and I don't subscribe to the
theory of "manifest destiny." I prefer other philosophies but have no qualms
with others who do not feel the same. While I don't believe that Western
European society is superior to any other group in terms of social structure
and or history. I do like the elements of it and my family heritage ties me
to it. One of the reasons I joined this group in the first place.

I personally don't have any objections to role playing and do see it as an
element within any reconstruction group. In fact, I believe people take on
many "roles" as they go about their day to day lives. I understand that NR is
not a LARP or RPG. But, constructing oneself as a "modern Roman" in today's
world is not the same as being "born" into a particular
ethnic/political/religious group and does have a certain "artificial" quality
about it. I'm sure everyone handles that in their own minds on an individual
basis.

I'm not sure what you mean by "situational ethics" or "fly by the seat
morality" and what either of them have to do with having the outlook that
life does not have to be painful and full of hardship to be worthwhile. It is
my opinion [note: "opinion"] that ethics are by their nature situational. I
do understand there are people who take a more rigid approach. I do not
because I have found that being rigid makes for more unpleasant situations
that being flexible. Everyone is different. As for "morality," once again -
it is my opinion - that "morality" is a manifestation of the society in
question. An example would be the differences in the "age of consent" for
marriage. Different ages have been deemed "moral" at different times in
history. Does that make one choice more proper than another? Not sure.
Different systems work at different times with different populations who have
various ethnic/religious/resource situations to consider. I certainly have a
personal code of ethics and morality that I use for myself. I usually don't
try to interfere with another person's personal belief systems. That's just
my way.

As for the issue of "control." The original context of this thread was a
discussion about whether people should be allowed to leave a gens if they
chose to do so. There seemed to be two basic approaches: 1) yes, they can
leave if they want. 2) no, they can't. In terms of number 2, I believe that
constitutes not letting someone do something by choice and I consider that
trying to control their actions. That's my personal viewpoint on the subject
and something I would not do. Once again, everyone is different.

I've given the subject a great deal of thought and considered the opposite
position for those gens who take a more "traditionalist" approach (as defined
by them, not me). I have a proposal for a solution:

Have a place on the gens website listing where the
paterfamilias/materfamilias can give a brief description of the gens he/she
has founded in terms of the families philosophy, rules for membership, rules
for leaving, etc. Have one of the requirements for joining a gens that the
member making the application has to read that information and agree to the
families philosophy and rules before they become a part of that subgroup. If
different families have different ways of handling their internal problems
that's okay. Families *do* have differences and aren't all alike. It would be
in keeping with the structure of Roman philosophy to give the "control" over
setting the "tone" of the family to the paterfamilias. The new members would
have the "choice" of joining based on useful information regarding the gens
they are interested in. People would - because they get a clearer picture of
the group they are joining before hand - be grouped together in more like
minded units. This would probably help prevent conflicts regarding deep
seated differences of opinion between individuals.

With regard to the approach that "if you don't like it you can quit" theory
of working within a group: I've never been a fan of this particular approach.
I think diversity and discussion have a lot to offer a group and taking
different approaches to problem solving keeps the group fresh. All groups
experience internal problems. If the solution is "you don't like it you can
leave." Eventually the group will consist of one person. Finding workable
compromises is the only way a group can stay together and grow in a positive
manner. My approach has always been: "you don't like it, tell me why and
let's see what we can do to work things out." Also, I have found that most
issues in groups arise from taking too rigid an approach with members and
trying to "force" conformity by making rules that are overly restrictive and
biased. I understand that restrictions and being biased are elements that
some people may enjoy. I don't, that's just me. However, this was one
consideration that led me to the suggestion that the
paterfamilias/materfamilias do some sort of post about their gens philosophy
and structure so people can group together in more like minds. Those who
enjoy rigidity and those who enjoy more flexibility can both have their
systems within their own gens. Both sides win. In my opinion, the best
solution in any conflict.

No, I have not been a member before. I've known a long time member and
discussed the group with that individual on more than one occasion over the
last couple of years. But, I only decided to join recently.

Valete,
M. Varius

In a message dated 8/2/02 4:36:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
alexious@earthlink.net writes:

> What makes me uncomfortable is the fact that the opposition believes my
> motives are something entirely different. And they play on that as if THAT
> was the principle I believed in.

<snip>

> your twist on my words is very interesting.

<snip>

> I believe in a more Utilitarian structure as explained by Jeremy Bentham

<snip>

[I wrote]
One of my basic philosophies of life is
that it does not have to be painful and full of hardship to be worthwhile.
[response]
Sulla: That maybe perfect for you. But I do not believe in situational
ethics and the fly by the seat morality.

<snip>

Sulla: The problem with that is there is no real "control" in Nova Roma.
Because we are a voluntary organization. I have said that before, yet it has
continued to go un-noticed.

<snip>

Sulla: If you dont like what ANYONE in Nova Roma might be doing, you have the
ability to quit.

<snip>

Sulla: Your posting seems to sound very familiar, IMHO. Were you in Nova
Roma before? If so what was your Roman name?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Predestined Changes/could NR fall?
From:	MVariusPM@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:09:29 EDT

Salveto,

Note: The following post made it appear that the text was a quote from a
previous post I wrote. The text grouped together was not written by me. I
just wanted to make that clear, in case anyone was confused.

Valete,
M. Varius (clipped text for example follows:)

In a message dated 8/2/02 6:30:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
celtic4usa@yahoo.com writes:

> MVariusPM@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/2/02 7:05:55 AM Central
> I agree with you and this is why we must be very careful and take thing
> slow.To many times we can get in to fast and the world falls apart.I've
> been in to many

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Replies on the Slope
From:	MVariusPM@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:14:50 EDT

Salveto

In a message dated 8/2/02 6:40:30 PM Central Daylight Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> Judging men of the past by the standards of the
> present is one of the unfairest things a historian can
> do.

I wasn't. I was discussing the past from my modern perspective, not making
judgements about the motivations of historical circumstance. In fact, if I
were having a discussion about the circumstances surrounding historical
incidents I can usually give a fairly clear perspective on *why* things
turned out the way they did and *what* mitigating circumstances led to the
outcomes.

However, I was talking about looking at the past circumstances from the
modern perspective. We are here in this time period with the world at large
around us. Not accepting that would be like sticking our heads in the ground.
People who lived at the time of ancient Rome did the best they could from
their point of view. That doesn't mean every detail of what they did and the
systems they used should be blindly recreated. We are products of our era as
much as they were of theirs. Using our approach is using our approach. Sorry
if there was any confusion.

Valete,
M. Varius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of Office
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:24:07 -0400 (EDT)

I, James Lee Mathews / Marcus Minucius Audens do hereby solemly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a Magistrate (and as an Academia Thule Doctor of Artem Mlitarem /
Doctor of Archeologiam / Praeceptor duly appointed by the Academia
authority this date), I, James Lee Mathews / Marcus Minucius Audens
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and
to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, James Lee Mathews / Marcus Minucius Audens swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romano as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in any way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, James Lee Mathews / Marcus Minucius Audens swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, James Lee Mathews / Marcus Minucius Audens further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Praeceptor and
Doctor of Artem Militarem / Doctor of Archeologiam to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by thier will and favor, do I
accept the position of Doctor of Artem Militarem / Doctor of
Archeologiam / Praeceptor, and all the rights, privaledges, obligations,
and responsibilities attendent thereto.

In closing, I wish to thank the Triumvirs of the Academia Thule, and the
founder Senator Quintilianius for this great privaledge and honor that
they have extended to me, and I further promise to be as careful of this
particular Oath and Honor as any extended to me by the Citizens or
Senate of Nova Roma in the past. What oaths have been honored and
promised to the Gods, let no man or men put asunder!!!!!!!!!!

Very Respectfully, and with a Great Humbleness and Appreciation;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Doctor of Artem Militarem / Doctor of Archeologiam / Praeceptor --
Academia Thule -- Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Volubilis
From:	"mcserapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:32:33 -0000

AVE OPTIME MARCE MINVCI AVDENS

Thank you for such an interesting information. It will be rather
useful for my work about Roman Africa!

VALE BENE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Dominus Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of Office
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:35:32 +0100 (BST)

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez),
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez), swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez), swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez), further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the offices of caput generis
doctrinae religionis and praeceptor of the Academia Thules to the best
of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the positions of caput generis doctrinae religionis and
praeceptor of the Academia Thules and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:54:09 -0600

Ave,

Just a few comments and questions, I've beenmulling over this one all day
practically.

-----Original Message-----
From: gcassiusnerva [mailto:gcassiusnerva@cs.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 5:13 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] (unknown)

Salvete,

Does a gens restructuring really have to be so long in
the
future?
Suppose the Consitution would be changed along these lines:

1. All gens within Nova Roma would be divided up into
separate
families or households under their own Paterfamilias or
Materfamilias.

Aeternia: Would this be mandatory?

2. The current Paterfamilias or Materfamilias would lose
this title
{as far as the gens as a whole is concerned} and all such
power over
members of the gens not in his or her own family. Let us,
for lack
of a better word at the moment, call this person the "Gens
Founder".

Aeternia: Okay lets just say for example purposes only, this
hypothetically
Happens. So under the family of Cornelia, I form the Gens
Cornelia Iuliana
(It is what I could up with a short thinking cap notice :-))
Is that how it would
go?

3. If the members of a gens wish to continue their
relationship
under the original Nova Roma system {under the Gens Founder}
they may
be adopted into the family of the paterfamilias, be under
his power,
and live with the the consequences of their descision, good
or bad.

Aeternia: Understood that completely.

4. Members of a gens who do NOT wish to be adopted into the
Gens
Founder's family would not be forced to do so. Such persons
may have
their own households within the gens and be the
Paterfamilias or
Materfamilias of that household.

Aeternia: Understood may not necessarily agree, but
understood....

So, for example, if most of the Gens Cassia wish to have
Cassius as
their Paterfamilias, they may be so adopted by Cassius. But
if Gaius
Cassius Nerva does NOT wish to have Cassius as his
Paterfamilias, he
may be the Pater of his own household, and keep the right to
the
nomen 'Cassius'.

5. Gens Founders could still have certain perogatives
regarding new
applicants. He could, for instance, set an age requirement
for
entering the gens as a new family.

EXAMPLE: If a sixteen year old with parental consent applied
to Nova
Roma, a Gens Founder could bar the applicant from the gens
unless a
family adopted him until such a time as he is old enough to
be a
paterfamilas himself. Minors so adopted would be mentored
by the
adopting Paterfamilas, and subject to his discipline {which
would NOT
violate Macronational, State, or Local Laws} So if a minor
is acting
pretty badly, the Paterfamilas could ban him from the
mailing list by
notifying the Paretor who would then remove him until such
time as
the paterfamilas deems appropriate.

If such an ammendment to the Consitution as above were
proposed and
on the table, would you support it or oppose it, and why?

Aeternia:Nerva, that very last line should be used more in
my opinion.
Support, Oppose, and Why? It's my turn to answer correct?

Support: I support this partially (Can it be partial?)
because I see it as a
Simple solution to a lot of excessive drama (no offense to
anyone).

Oppose: As a citizen, I'm finally happy with the current
Gens I'm in. I've
Never seen myself as a Gens founder, if that was the case I
would've formed
A Gens of my own a long time ago.

Why: Good question, and I have stated the reasons above.. My
reasons yes, may they
Be actual justified reasons? Depending on the individual,
and again no offense to
Anyone intended.

Vale Bene,
Aeternia

Gaius Cassius Nerva