Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Latino sine flexione
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:54:26 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete Quirites

Is anyone here familiar with the following work:

"De Latine sine flexione, Lingua Auxiliare
Internationale" by Giuseppe Peano, 1903 (?)

As far as I know, Peano suggested, that a simplified
Latin would serve better and easier as a universal
language than any *artificially* crated language (e.g.
Esperanto). Peano, as the name explains, stripped all
the flexions.

Can anyone here provide further informations on this
subject - and, playing the devil's advocat here,
wouldn't that be something quite useful within NR?

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

__________________________________________________________________

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Latino sine flexione - Correction
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:56:48 +0200 (CEST)

Oops... the title of the essay is of course "De
Latin_o_ sine flexione". Sorry for that!

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latino sine flexione
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:06:04 -0700 (PDT)

--- "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> Is anyone here familiar with the following work:
>
> "De Latine sine flexione, Lingua Auxiliare
> Internationale" by Giuseppe Peano, 1903 (?)
>
> As far as I know, Peano suggested, that a simplified
> Latin would serve better and easier as a universal
> language than any *artificially* crated language
> (e.g.
> Esperanto). Peano, as the name explains, stripped
> all
> the flexions.
>
> Can anyone here provide further informations on this
> subject - and, playing the devil's advocat here,
> wouldn't that be something quite useful within NR?
>
Salve,
This link may be useful.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2948/index2.html


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latina sine Flexiones
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:03:46 EDT

Salvete. I just tried contacting the people who sponsor "Interlingua," a
simplified version of Latin that their movement would like to see become
universally accepted, learned, and used by people all over the world. A
wonderful idea, but I had some thoughts to share with them after visiting
their website and seeing what Interlingua is. Unfortunately, my email to them
was returned as undeliverable. I've decided to share my email to them with
all of you. I hope some fellow Nova Roman will know how to contact those
people. I would also enjoy any and all feedback from my fellow citizens on
this subject. Gratias ad omnes.
Apicius Faunius Comissator
______________________________________________________________________

Salvete.
It's odd how people keep reinventing the wheel. For years I've
fantasized about the idea of having a simplified, modernized version of
(Vulgar) Latin become an international language. And then I came upon your
website by being a member of Nova Roma.
I applaud the idea that now I see was started so many years ago, but I
must say that I'm disappointed with what I have seen Interlingua. Simplifying
Latin would be wonderful. For example, doing away with the overly dependent
use of inflexions in long, adverbial phrases, and leaving behind the amazing
array of subjunctive forms. But I think Interlingua goes too far in removing
much of what makes Latin Latin. I don't think you have to do away with
gender, subject/verb agreement, or noun/adjective agreement. I don't think
you have to do away with plural forms. Such elements as these are at the
heart of the language. When I saw sentences that used es after plural
subjects, I cringed. When I saw what seemed to be a masculine ending used
together with a feminine noun, I cringed again. I really think Interlingua
has gone too far.
I am extremely interested in seeing a new form of simplified Latin
come into being, get universally accepted, and learned and used by millions
of people worldwide, and, being a linguist and author of English grammar
books, I would love to be involved in such a project. But I do think you need
to approach the matter reasonably and not destroy the integrity of the
character, flavor, and charm of what makes a language---any
language---unique. Some elements of Latin are very difficult for most and
could easily be done away with, but other elements are not that difficult to
master and should be left in. I think you should do some serous rethinking on
this subject. For example, understanding the historical development of the
current Romance languages and how they did away with most inflexions and rely
more now on the use of prepositions would help the creators of Interlingua
find more reasonable ways of expressing Latin in a simplified form.
If you'd like more dialogue with me, I'd be happy and flattered to
participate. I hope I will hear from you.
Best wishes.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] About Chariot Races
From:	"mcserapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:10:36 -0000

AVETE OMNES

On the occasion of the *great* Summer Camp of the *great* Factio
Praesina (I would like to remind you: the *winning* factio...
grin!!!!), a text about chariot races has been written by Caius
Curius Saturninus and myself.
We would like to share it with all Nova Romans here in the Forum.

BENE VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Italiae
Dominus Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressus
Scriba Aedilis Plebis Cicatricis
-----------------------------
PROVINCIA ITALIA
http://italia.novaroma.org
-----------------------------
ADMINISTRATIO AEDILIS PLEBIS
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/aediliscicatrix.html
-----------------------------
GENS CONSTANTINIA
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/constantinia_en.html

-----------------------------


CHARIOT RACES IN ANCIENT ROME

The first-century CE satirist Juvenal wrote, "Long ago the people
shed their anxieties, ever since we do not sell our votes to anyone.
For the people-who once conferred imperium, symbols of office,
legions, everything-now hold themselves in check and anxiously desire
only two things, the grain dole and chariot races in the Circus"
(Satires 10.77-81).

Juvenal's famous phrase, "panem et circenses" (bread and circuses)
has become proverbial to describe those who give away significant
rights in exchange for material pleasures. Juvenal has put his finger
on two of the most important aspects of Roman chariot races-their
immense popularity and the pleasure they gave the Roman people, and
the political role they played during the empire in diverting
energies that might otherwise have gone into rioting and other forms
of popular unrest.

-The origin:

Possibly the oldest spectacular sport in Rome, chariot racing dates
back at least to the sixth century BCE. It was quite popular among
the Etruscans, an advanced civilization of non-Italic people who for
a time dominated the area around Rome and contributed greatly to many
aspects of Roman civilization. We can also see depictions of chariot
racing among the Lucanians of Sicily in the fifth century BCE. Among
these peoples, races were associated with funeral games, and in Rome
too (where they were first started in a marshland between the
Palatine and the Aventine hill by shepherds and farmers) they had
religious ties, particularly to the chariot-driving deities Sol (the
sun) and Luna (the moon), and to a god called Consus, an agricultural
deity who presided over granaries. Originally chariot races (ludi
circenses) were held only on religious festivals like the Consualia,
and they were stern competition, which people assisted to with a
religious attitude in order to gain the favour of the gods. But later
they would also be held on non-feast days when sponsored by
magistrates and other Roman dignitaries. People will get excited by
the
result of the competitions, in particular when bets
will start (sponsiones); however the atmosphere will
always keep a certain religiousness, as we can argue
from the presence of the emperor and of the highest
magistrates, and from the habit of wearing the toga
like during solemn circumstances.

However the races have their roots in astrology and in
the representation of the cycle of seasons, as we can
argue from the arena and from the course of the race:
starting from the twelve constellations (the twelve
gates where the chariots waited for the start), the
charioteer (the sun), wearing one of the four seasons
(white-winter, green-spring, red-summer, blue-autumn),
started his route around the Earth (the track) and the
sea (the protection ditch to protect spectators),
following the orbit of the seven planets (the seven
lap of the competition).
As to the number of the factiones, we know that
Diocletian added two new ones, the "Purpurea" and the
"Aurata", that just lasted until his death.

-About the buildings:

Circuses were large entertainment buildings used first and foremost
for races with four-horse (quadrigae) or two-horse (bigae) chariots,
but on particular occasions even six- eight- or ten-horse chariots
(decemiuges). Circus Maximus was almost the only one of the famous
circuses that was used as a venue for other kind of activity as well
(ridden horse races, races of horseback riders who dismounted to
complete the race on foot, boxing, wrestling and long distance
running, Troy Game, wild beast hunts, gladiatiorial combats, staged
battles between opposing armies etc.) The Circus Maximus was the
oldest entertainment arena in Rome and unlike other entertainment
facilities men and women were permitted to sit together. The Circus
Maximus was also the oldest circus in Roman empire, first built on
the wood, but rebuilt several times. The oldest record of
construction in the Circus dates back to the 6th century BC, to the
times of the Etruscan kings. The Circus Maximus was destroyed by fire
twice and at least on two occasions the stands collapsed killing many
people. The Circus had no raised embankment so the floods of Tiber
affected it regulary. The last race in Circus was held in 599 AD,
nearly a full millenium after the track's construction!

-Construction of the Circus:

A circus consists of two parallel terraces facing each other along
the longer sides of the track (arena). These were connected at one
end by a sharp curve in the terrace (cavea), facing the stables at
the other end, from which protruded the central wall to the metae at
either end.

The architect's first task was to ensure that each team had to travel
essentially the same distance from start to finish of the race. There
were basically three choices: it could take the form of a continuous
circle, a large oval with several gentle curves and several straight
sectors, or it could follow the Greek example of a relatively narrow
and long arena with a turning post at the far end and a second at the
near end if more than one lap was to be run. The two turning posts
could be connected by a continuous mound or wall if the architect
wished. This was almost always done because it eliminated the
possibility of head-on collisions and reduced the distraction
experienced by horses seeing another team coming at them at a close
range. The floor of the circus was always made of sand, this was to
absorb the blood.

The Circus Maximus was laid out in the Murcia Valley between the
Palatine and the Aventine hills. It was built into a hillside.
Material that was dug out was used to create support on the other
side of the building. Seats ran in tiers around the U-shaped arena
(except at the open end). A fence ran down the middle- called a spina-
to make laps. By the time of Augustus, the entire building was 620
meters long (678 yards) and about 140-150 meters (159 yards) at its
widest point; its seating capacity was approximately 250,000
spectators.
It had twelve starting boxes set out on an oblique curving line to
compensate for the starting handicap.

-Circus vs. Stadia:

Stadia, being long and narrow buildings with at least one
semicircular end, are rather similar to the layout of the circuses
and have often been confused with them. However, there are several
important differences. The arena of the stadium was generally close
to one stade in length (circumference of 180-200m), less than half
that of a monumental circus. Its arena was also much narrower than
that of a circus (circumference of 30m compared to 70m). Stadia would
have had lanes marked out the full length of the arena and a turning
post at each end of each lane, whereas Roman circuses in their fully
developed form had a continuous barrier which separated the arena
into two separate tracks and, at each end of that long barrier, a
single set of turning posts around which all the chariots turned.

The circus is a much larger establishment than the stadium because
the building had to accommodate the speed and size of the chariots.
Essentially the circus is just a stadium with an overgrown track, the
carcers were offset to compensate for the shorter length of the
inside track, and the spina ran down the center to allow for
continuous motion of the race.

-Types of Lines and Internal Details:

The laps run by the chariots were measured by moveable eggs (emblems
of Castor and Pollux) and dolphins (emblem of Neptune). Castor,
Pollux, and Neptune were the three gods that looked after the horses.

There were three types of lines used in the circus:
The first group of white lines were the lines which began from the
starting gates and served to mark the lanes of the teams during the
opening part of the race. Their purpose was clearly to prevent some
charioteers from cutting in and heading straight for the right-hand
edge of the near turning posts. This would cause collisions at the
very start of the race and spoil the fun for the spectators.

The next group of lines crossed the lanes at right angles and marked
the "break-line"- the point at which the chariots were allowed to
leave their lanes and head for the inside position.

The finishing line was often at the near end of the barrier in the
left-hand track. This is said to be a good location because, having
crossed the line there, the charioteers were able to slow down
gradually in the long straight stretch between the near meta and the
starting gates. However, there is much argument about where else the
finishing lines were placed and which methods worked best.

The white lines were made from any number of things. Early on, they
were called calx or creta. The lines could have been made from a type
of lime, a chalk or fine whitish clay, or a white tape held down at
various points.

-Differences between Greek and Roman chariot racing:

Greek racing was entirely in the hands of the private owners, not
professional organisations like the Roman Circus factiones. At
Olympia, the wealthy classes monopolized the equestrian events until
the end. Greek races frequently had a large number of teams competing
in a race. Races with ridden horses were more important for the
Greeks than Romans. Very little permanent architecture existed in the
Greek hippodrome whereas Roman Circus was entirely built. Greek
hippodromes also had no continuous barrier dividing the arena in two
like the Roman circuses. Also between each Greek hippodrome the
lenghth and width of the racing track varied more than in Roman
circuses.

-The competition:

The ceremonies began with an elaborate procession (pompa) headed by
the dignitary who was sponsoring the games, followed by the
charioteers and teams, musicians and dancers, and priests carrying
the statues of the gods and goddesses who were to watch the races.
The procession came into the circus through the triumphal arch, and
after its conclusion, in front of the terrace of the authorities,
the charioteers went to the starting points, established at random.
In every team there were a "familia quadrigaria" (which the "aurigae"
or charioteers came from), that had its own building (the "Stabulum
Factionis") and also included the "conditores" or
guardians, the "sellarii" and the "margaritarii", that
had to deal with harnessing the horses (also with
pearls, in latin "margaritae"), doctors, veterinaries,
the "villici", that provided forage, the
"sarcinatores" or tailors, the "fabri tignarii" or
carpenters, the "fabri ferrarii" or blacksmiths, etc.
In addition every factio had a superintendent called
"Dominus Factionis".
Once the horses were ready, the white cloth (mappa) was dropped, the
gates were sprung, and up to twelve teams of horses thundered onto
the track. The
chariots covered part of the first lap following a given trajectory,
in order to avoid accidents at the beginning.Then the strategy was to
avoid running too fast at the beginning of the race, since seven full
laps had to be run (the race track was 2000 feet long, running 7 laps
is about 3 miles) , but to try to hold a position close to the
barrier and round the turning posts as closely as possible without
hitting them. As the race progressed, passions were intense both on
and off the track.
The "aurigae" wore a tunica with his team's colors, a helmet made of
leather, a corselet to protect his ribs, and carried a whip. To
protect his legs he wore leather leggings. They led their light
chariots standing up, with the rein in the left hand and the whip in
the right one.
The number of laps completed in the race was measured by a rack of
dolphins which would tip once a circuit was made. (The dolphins
represented Neptune, who created the horse)
The most difficult moment (and so, the most exciting
one) was the overcoming of the two extremities (metae)
of the "spina" (the podium that longitudinally divided
the circus: it was here that the charioteer could show
his own abilities in choosing the right trajectory,
but it also was very important the role of the horses,
in particular the external ones (the left-hand one
was called "funalis") that had to guarantee the
roadholding, because the chariot risked overturning.
In case of an accident (naufragium), anyway, the
charioteer had the opportunity of limiting damages
cutting the rein with a dagger.

There were plenty of ways that teams from one stable could foul their
opponents during a race, and sometimes even before it started
(attempts to dope or poison horses and charioteers were not unknown).
Fanatical partisans sometimes even resorted to magic, seeking
to "hex" the rivals of their favorites. The following curse tablet
represents an attempt to incapacitate the drivers of the Red faction:

"Help me in the Circus on 8 November. Bind every limb, every sinew,
the shoulders, the ankles and the elbows of Olympus, Olympianus,
Scortius and Juvencus, the charioteers of the Red. Torment their
minds, their intelligence and their senses so that they may not know
what they are doing, and knock out their eyes so that they may not
see where they are going-neither they nor the horses they are going
to drive."

When the race was finally over, the presiding magistrate
ceremoniously presented the victorious charioteer with a palm branch
and a wreath while the crowds cheered wildly; the more substantial
monetary awards for stable and driver would be presented later. In
fact the winners of the races received a remarkable award by the
magistrate, that had to be added to the already outstanding wage. In
particular the most capable charioteers obtained, swearing not to
change factio, incredible wages.

-Fame and richness:

As today, the men as well as the horses obtained an
extraordinary renown, even though these animal risked
to lose their life much more than the charioteers. The
fame of the "aurigae" just depended on the results of
the races; from a number of inscriptions we know
several of them: Scorpus won 2,048 races, Pompeus
Musculosus won 3,559 races, Pomeus Epaphroditus won
1,467 races.
However also horses were very important. At one time the Romans
maintained up to 14,000 horses for chariot racing, and there was
always a demand for more. Horses began training as two-year olds,
were put into training harness at three, but were not raced until
they were at least five years old. They received only the very best
care by skilled grooms and trainers. To insure the horses'
tranquillity before a race, the Praetorian Guard were instructed not
to sound their trumpets so that the horses would not be disturbed.
As a consequence, also horses are mentioned: Polydoxus
(Pompeianus writes: "Winner or not, we love you,
Polydoxus"), Tuscus (who won 386 races), Victor (who
won 429 races). Martial writes (X, 9): "Yes, I am very
renowned all around the world, but way should you be
so envious? I am not as famous as the horse
Andremonis!".
The award for the charioteer was an amount of money or
the "manomissio", i.e. freedom if he was a slave.
Incomes were enormous: a certain Diocles began driving for the
Whites at the age of 18; after 6 years, he switched to the Greens for
3 years, and then drove 15 years for the Reds before retiring at the
age of 42 after winning 4,462 races, and with 35 millions sestertii
(about 7 millions dollars or euros) in his pocket!
Again Martial says (V, 74): "How long have I to sweat
during the whole day amidst outrunners and servants,
in order to earn one hundred of poor leaden coins,
while Scorpus, winner of the race, takes away in one
hour fifteen sacks of brinkling gold?"
Anyway Diocles' career was unusually long; many charioteers died
quite young (Fuscus at 24, Crescens at 22, Aurelius Mollicius at 20).

Pliny the Younger, criticizing partisanship, writes (Letters 9.6):
"I am the more astonished that so many thousands of grown men should
be possessed again and again with a childish passion to look at
galloping horses, and men standing upright in their chariots. If,
indeed, they were attracted by the swiftness of the horses or the
skill of the men, one could account for this enthusiasm. But in fact
it is a bit of cloth they favour, a bit of cloth that captivates
them. And if during the running the racers were to exchange colours,
their partisans would change sides, and instantly forsake the very
drivers and horses whom they were just before recognizing from afar,
and clamorously saluting by name."

Svetonius noted:
"Nero had been passionate about horses from early childhood. At the
beginning of his reign, he played every day with toy chariots made of
ivory. Soon he wished to drive a chariot himself. So first practicing
with his slaves, he appeared before the whole city in the circus."

In conclusion, Juvenal writes: "Today the circus
contains the whole Rome, and judging by the noise
striking my ears, I argue that the GREENS are winning.
Should they lose, you would see this city being sad
and astonished, just like when the Consuls suffered
the powder of Cannae!".

Many pictures can be found at:
http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/circus_sources.html

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Should we learn greek dances?
From:	"elinla02" <gmarilde@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:38:08 -0000

Avete omnes,

It is sad to realize that there aren't roman dances. Some people
think that the tarantella is a pale remain of the dances performed by
the bacchantes, but it's not sure. Perhaps the only thing that we
could do is to get closer again to Greece, our beloved model.
The Pyrrhic dance, the greek war dance, was very popular among the
romans. I thougt that this may be a form of union for us in our get-
togethers. Greek ancient music has survived and it is one of the best
ways to return to our glorious past.

Valete bene.

Valeria Constantinia Iuliana.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Decretum Procuratoris II about the bestowment of Gradus Academicus
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:31:34 +0300

Ex Officio Procuratoris Academiae Thules

Decretum Procuratoris II about the bestowment of Gradus Academicus

As I have been honored to have the position as Procurator and Praeses
et Triumvir in Academia Thules it is now my most pleasant duty to
announce the following Gradus Academici for the following citizens.


I. Doctor Honoris Causa
I.I Doctor Honoris Causa: Titus Labienus Fortunatus
This honorary title is granted to Titus Labienus Fortunatus because
of his pioneering work to develop the teaching in Academia Thules.


II. This decretum becomes effective immediately.


Given August the 19th, in the year of the consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix 2755 AUC.
--
Caius Curius Saturninus

Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Scriba Aedilis (Caeso Fabius Q.) Concursus

e-mail: c.curius@welho.com
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:25:09 -0700 (PDT)

SALVETE OMNES! I for one believe that all of us should
stick with the ancient Classic Latin that has come
down to us! We would do ourselves and Roma a injustice
to do so other wise! According to the tradition of
the ancient Mos Maiorum, Latin is the very language of
the DEI (GODS)!!! It is our SACRA LINGUA, the very
tongue of our Roman forefathers who addressed the Gods
in this very language. In short it is the very
linguistic ethos of being a traditional Roman! This is
where I stand!!! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:28:55 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete Quirites

First, I'd like to thank those who provided me with
some information about Peano and his ideas!

--- GAIVS IVLIANVS wrote:
> SALVETE OMNES! I for one believe that all of us
> should
> stick with the ancient Classic Latin that has come
> down to us! We would do ourselves and Roma a
> injustice
> to do so other wise! According to the tradition of
> the ancient Mos Maiorum, Latin is the very language
> of
> the DEI (GODS)!!! It is our SACRA LINGUA, the very
> tongue of our Roman forefathers who addressed the
> Gods
> in this very language.

Well, I wasn't suggesting, that NR should adopt Latino
sine flexione. But when I first read about it, I
remembered, that someone here once drew some parallels
between Zionism and NR. In Israel they renewed Hebrew
into a modern, living language. Something, that imho,
NR has to achieve at some point. And that would
require some modernization and/or simplification of
classical Latin. Well, of course we could go the same
way as the Vatican with simply *inventing* new words.

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

__________________________________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:38:39 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete Quirites

If you are interested in this topic, you may browse
the following website:

Nuntii Latini:
http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html

Here is an example of news in Latin (August, 16th
2002):

DE TEMPESTATE IN EUROPA INSOLITA
Tempestas etiam in multis terris Europae mense
Augusto insolita fuit. Finnis aestu paene caniculari
gaudentibus partes continentis mediae et meridianae
imbribus diluviisque vexatae sunt. Ex quibusdam urbis
Pragae partibus, quas aquae fluminis Moldavae
inundaverunt, circiter quinquaginta milia incolarum
domos suas relinquere coacti sunt. Magna sunt damna
etiam eorum populorum, per quos Danuvius et Albis
labuntur, nam aquae fluminum, imbribus auctae,
altiores
sunt quam umquam his centum annis. Pontes
corruerunt, viae abruptae sunt, domus aquis
diluvialibus circumdatae. Praecipue urbs Dresda his
diebus afflictatur.


Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

__________________________________________________________________

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Should we learn greek dances?
From:	"lafaustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:39:04 -0000

Salve,

I´m not sure if there wasn´t Roman dances. In the work ´De
tranquilitate animi´, Seneca states that Scipio used to dance ´manly
as the ancestors danced´ on the victories, sure it means ancient
roman dances. Unfortunatly, I have that text only in Portuguese, but
I will provide here, the Latim, Spanish and Italians readers can
undestand as well.

" Cipião exercitava seu corpo de triunfador e de guerreiro no
compasso da dança - não com estas atitudes moles que hoje em dia
estão na moda e que dão ao movimento mesmo uma languidez mais que
feminina, mas do mesmo modo que nossos grandes antepassados, que
sabiam nos dias de júbilo e de festa dançar varonilmente sem que seu
prestígio se arriscasse a sofrer, mesmo que eles tivessem por
testemunha seus inimigos. "

Lucio Aneu Seneca, Da Tranquilidade da Alma


L. Arminius Faustus, another son of Terpsicore




- In Nova-Roma@y..., "elinla02" <gmarilde@h...> wrote:
> Avete omnes,
>
> It is sad to realize that there aren't roman dances. Some people
> think that the tarantella is a pale remain of the dances performed
by
> the bacchantes, but it's not sure. Perhaps the only thing that we
> could do is to get closer again to Greece, our beloved model.
> The Pyrrhic dance, the greek war dance, was very popular among the
> romans. I thougt that this may be a form of union for us in our get-
> togethers. Greek ancient music has survived and it is one of the
best
> ways to return to our glorious past.
>
> Valete bene.
>
> Valeria Constantinia Iuliana.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS VII PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:01:23 -0700 (PDT)

> EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM
> EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS VII
>
> Effective ante diem XIII Kal. SEPTEMBRAS
> MMDCCLV a.u.c.(20 August 2002), I, Marcus Bianchius
> Antonius, Propraetor of the Provincia Lacus Magni,
> issue this edict.
>
>
> I, M. Bianchius Antonius, name Gaius Cassius
> Athanasius(resident of Ohio)the new Legate of Lacus
> Magni Orientalis, the Eastern part of the Provincia
> Lacus Magni, which includes Michigan, Ohio, West
> Virginia, Kentucky. This is effective upon his
> taking
> of the Oath of Office.
>
> He shall serve as a local contact for citizens in
> that
> Region, and to perform administrative tasks for the
> province as a whole.
>
>
> Signed,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni


=====
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali
http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:44:42 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Thanks to studying basic Latin in high school many years ago, I found
French and Spanish much easier to learn. I have begun studying Latin
again because of my interest in Nova Roma. I know things like masc.,
feninine , neuter, irregular verb endings and especially the
subjunctive take a while and constant practice to figure out but I
assure you they come in time. For me, I find the conjugation of nouns
a royal pain in the you know where! Happily Spanish and French
dropped that over 500 years ago from what I read. Still, I wish to
master noun conjugations because all Eastern European languages,
German, Romanian, Greek and Arabic all have noun conjugations. How do
I know? I have friends from all those cultures, I show them my Latin
text and they say yep, just wait till you try our languages! Be
patient and take your time. Don't feel discouraged by people who say,
oh, my brother speaks 8 or 9 languages at 20 years old. What is their
definition of fluency? It took 11 years of English before I was good
enough to be able to pass exams and write papers in university, I
studied Spanish for many years, can have inelligent conversation,
write it etc, but I would still have problems to translate that huge
text of Mithran verse into Spanish or conduct a high level business
or legal meeting in Madrid without making numerous errors. In other
words, for most of us learning a second, third or 4 th language
profeciently is a life time goal in my opinion. Actually phrases like
good morning, how are you, you are pretty, I love you, a beer please
etc. I could say in 10 languages. Ask me to give a 30 minute public
oration on the Gallic wars of Caesar in all these languages - forget
it! I feel Latin should be left as it is without simplification.
Master Latin and you have the key to other complex languages. Latin
may well make a comeback someday as a Western language so it would be
great to be on board. Don't get discouraged.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> If you are interested in this topic, you may browse
> the following website:
>
> Nuntii Latini:
> http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html
>
> Here is an example of news in Latin (August, 16th
> 2002):
>
> DE TEMPESTATE IN EUROPA INSOLITA
> Tempestas etiam in multis terris Europae mense
> Augusto insolita fuit. Finnis aestu paene caniculari
> gaudentibus partes continentis mediae et meridianae
> imbribus diluviisque vexatae sunt. Ex quibusdam urbis
> Pragae partibus, quas aquae fluminis Moldavae
> inundaverunt, circiter quinquaginta milia incolarum
> domos suas relinquere coacti sunt. Magna sunt damna
> etiam eorum populorum, per quos Danuvius et Albis
> labuntur, nam aquae fluminum, imbribus auctae,
> altiores
> sunt quam umquam his centum annis. Pontes
> corruerunt, viae abruptae sunt, domus aquis
> diluvialibus circumdatae. Praecipue urbs Dresda his
> diebus afflictatur.
>
>
> Valete bene,
>
> =====
> A. Hirtius Helveticus
> ------------------------------
> paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
> http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
> ------------------------------
> Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
> icq: 155762490
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
> Möchten Sie mit einem Gruß antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:41:14 +0200 (CEST)

Salve Pauline

Uhm, I myself studied 5 yrs. Latin and 2 yrs. ancient
Greek during my time at school, plus French and
English. What I had in mind with Latino sine Flexione
was, as I pointed out already, that, if there will
ever be a comeback of Latin as a living language, it
will certainly be closer to vulgar Latin AND it will
require a lot of new vocabulary. As it was/is the case
with Hebrew.

BTW, the Latin in the Nuntii Latini is, despite its
vocabulary, classic.

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

__________________________________________________________________

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
Möchten Sie mit einem Gruß antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:45:30 EDT

Salvete omnibus!
I am very pleased that we've started a dialogue on how we feel about
whether or not Latin should be "upgraded" or left as is. There are two points
I'd like to make as a linguist in response to what I've already read from
other Nova Romans.
First, language is one of those things in our lives that easily
creates emotional responses. It's part of being human, and nothing makes us
more human than language. That accounts for some of the conservative comments
I've read. "Leave well enough alone!" is what many people would say. The
thing is that they're missing the point. Language is a living thing (note the
term "dead language"), which means that it keeps evolving through time. No
language spoken today has remained unchanged over the centuries. Just as
everything else in human existence changes over time, so does language. It's
inevitable; it can't be stopped---nor should it be stopped. The Latin used
during the time of the Republic was different from the Latin used at the end
of the Empire. So wanting to "upgrade" Latin to revive it and make it once
again a living, breathing, functioning language is not something to frown
upon. If done with reason and respect to the language and its history, it's
something to be excited about.
Second, as for sticking with Classical Latin, I'd like to remind Nova
Romans that it's a well-known fact that the language spoken by the everyday
Roman even in the capital (commonly referred to as Vulgar Latin) was not the
exact language used in literature. There are enormous differences in
vocabulary and grammar. So it would be quite ironic and actually erroneous to
expect to use Classical Latin in everyday communication. Even if the
conservatives want to keep Latin unchanged except for the new vocabulary that
would have to be created to keep up with the 21st century, they should be
focusing on Vulgar Latin, not "Classical" Latin, which is just another name
for the literary form.
I firmly believe that a modern form of Latin should eventually become
the standard language of Nova Roma. It would be fitting and proper to have it
as our common first language. And as I said in my first message to the
listserve, most of the elements that give Latin its unique character and
charm could be retained; it's only the awkward, incredibly stylized elements
such as amazingly long adverbial clauses which use no prepositions, or the
incredible number of declension endings, or the top-heavy forms of the
subjunctive that need to be adjusted.
As a last note, I'd like to mention that English was once an inflected
language with declension endings on nouns and adjectives just as Latin is.
English, just as the Romance languages did, dropped the endings on nouns and
adjectives as time went by. There are many historical reasons to explain this
phenomenon, but I won't go into the details here. The main vestige of
declension that English retained is in the personal pronouns (he/his/him,
etc.) and in the genitive -'s (the woman's house).
I certainly respect all the comments and feelings I've read on this
listserve about retaining Classical Latin as the primary language for Nova
Roma at some point, but I hope I have helped my fellow citizens to understand
why it would not be inappropriate or anathema to upgrade the language of our
spiritual ancestors just as Israelis did so successfully with Hebrew.
Spero ut omnes intellegant meas ideas et sint de accordo. Valete.
Apicius Faunius Comissator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus <gualterus@erudition.net>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:10:17 -0400

Salve,

Well spoken! Myself having been raised in a household where Ukrainian was
the main language, I can definitely attest to its heavily inflected
nature. When I was taking Latin in HS years ago I found the structure
and need for inflexion familiar, unlike many classmates, who only knew
English, and had a difficult time grasping the need or usage of noun
declination, etc. There is a wonderful flexibility that inflected
languages have, a quality that I would not want to see stripped away.
Although, I can sympathize with wanting to simplify Latin, removing
conjugation and declination would, in my opinion, ruin the language.

- M. Cornelius Gualterus


miguelkelly15 wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Thanks to studying basic Latin in high school many years ago, I found
> French and Spanish much easier to learn. I have begun studying Latin
> again because of my interest in Nova Roma. I know things like masc.,
> feninine , neuter, irregular verb endings and especially the
> subjunctive take a while and constant practice to figure out but I
> assure you they come in time. For me, I find the conjugation of nouns
> a royal pain in the you know where! Happily Spanish and French
> dropped that over 500 years ago from what I read. Still, I wish to
> master noun conjugations because all Eastern European languages,
> German, Romanian, Greek and Arabic all have noun conjugations. How do
> I know? I have friends from all those cultures, I show them my Latin
> text and they say yep, just wait till you try our languages! Be
> patient and take your time. Don't feel discouraged by people who say,
> oh, my brother speaks 8 or 9 languages at 20 years old. What is their
> definition of fluency? It took 11 years of English before I was good
> enough to be able to pass exams and write papers in university, I
> studied Spanish for many years, can have inelligent conversation,
> write it etc, but I would still have problems to translate that huge
> text of Mithran verse into Spanish or conduct a high level business
> or legal meeting in Madrid without making numerous errors. In other
> words, for most of us learning a second, third or 4 th language
> profeciently is a life time goal in my opinion. Actually phrases like
> good morning, how are you, you are pretty, I love you, a beer please
> etc. I could say in 10 languages. Ask me to give a 30 minute public
> oration on the Gallic wars of Caesar in all these languages - forget
> it! I feel Latin should be left as it is without simplification.
> Master Latin and you have the key to other complex languages. Latin
> may well make a comeback someday as a Western language so it would be
> great to be on board. Don't get discouraged.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
> wrote:
>
>>Salvete Quirites
>>
>>If you are interested in this topic, you may browse
>>the following website:
>>
>>Nuntii Latini:
>>http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/summary.html
>>
>>Here is an example of news in Latin (August, 16th
>>2002):
>>
>>DE TEMPESTATE IN EUROPA INSOLITA
>>Tempestas etiam in multis terris Europae mense
>>Augusto insolita fuit. Finnis aestu paene caniculari
>>gaudentibus partes continentis mediae et meridianae
>>imbribus diluviisque vexatae sunt. Ex quibusdam urbis
>>Pragae partibus, quas aquae fluminis Moldavae
>>inundaverunt, circiter quinquaginta milia incolarum
>>domos suas relinquere coacti sunt. Magna sunt damna
>>etiam eorum populorum, per quos Danuvius et Albis
>>labuntur, nam aquae fluminum, imbribus auctae,
>>altiores
>>sunt quam umquam his centum annis. Pontes
>>corruerunt, viae abruptae sunt, domus aquis
>>diluvialibus circumdatae. Praecipue urbs Dresda his
>>diebus afflictatur.
>>
>>
>>Valete bene,
>>
>>=====
>>A. Hirtius Helveticus
>>------------------------------
>>paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
>>http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
>>------------------------------
>>Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
>>icq: 155762490
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>
>>Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
>>Möchten Sie mit einem Gruß antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de
>>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Public announcement
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:34:33 +0000

Not at all! Not at all!

The name is Peregrinator, but the word fides is etched in there, somewhere,
between the letters.

Good to hear from you.

Vale

G. Galerius Peregrinator.


>From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Public announcement
>Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:16:31 EDT
>
>To G. Galerius Peregrinator from his cousin F. Galerius Aurelianus
>Secundus.
>Salve.
>
>I hope this does not mean that you will fly far from the nest. Vale.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Learning Languages (was: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!)
From:	"G. Noviodunus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:44:38 +0200

Salve Quinte Lani Pauline

> Thanks to studying basic Latin in high school many years ago, I found
> French and Spanish much easier to learn.

I can only agree with this. Learning romance languages if you know latin
is just like cutting your workload by 2.

> For me, I find the conjugation of nouns
> a royal pain in the you know where!

Heh where? Actually, you call that declension, and you have several
cases like nominative, accusative, genitive, dative and ablative (plus
the vocative, locative and other minor ones).

> Happily Spanish and French
> dropped that over 500 years ago from what I read. Still, I wish to
> master noun conjugations because all Eastern European languages,
> German, Romanian, Greek and Arabic all have noun conjugations.

Wow, you seem to know a lot. German has fewer than latin (Nominative,
Accusative, Genitive and Dative), but true, once you get the picture,
it's easier. Romanian has only 2 (Nominative-Accusative, and
Genitive-Dative, with an occasional use of the vocative). I don't know
about modern Greek, but ancient Greek definitely had cases, the same
like latin, as much as I know, except Ablative.

> How do I know? I have friends from all those cultures, I show them my Latin
> text and they say yep, just wait till you try our languages!

Heh. Do you have a Finnish or Hungarian friend by any chance? They have
something like 20 cases. Good luck indeed!

Ok, since you got me started on this topic: I think learning a language
that are making learning other languages easier is an excellent
strategy. I for one learnt Romanian in 4 years, and I mean _fluent_.
After 6 years I was attending University classes in Romanian.
Translating Latin texts into Romanian is plain fun, did you know?

Now I'm really tempted to learn Russian or any other slavic language,
since Romanian really opened a door to that field. You can find plenty
of words that have both a romance and a slavic counterpart. For example
"time" is "timp" or "ceas" [pronounced 'chus']. The latter being slavic.
Those who know Russian have recognized the word, for sure!!

Let's drift away a little: if you are reading this, you know a germanic
language: English. Then it should not be very hard to learn any other
germanic language like German, Dutch, Swedish...

You can use the same strategy for Asian languages, however the situation
is a little bit different. Chinese, Japanese and Korean are from a
completely different stem, but they have a lot of loanwords, especially
Chinese words in Korean and Japanese. If you want to start in this
field, I suggest you start learning Korean. They have a very easy
alphabet (you can learn it in a couple of hours, though reading takes a
little longer...) and a lot of Chinese words like English has latin
words. Right now I'm learning Korean (I admit, it's tough), but once I
know it, I'll probably learn Chinese too. Wish me luck.

Anyways, back to the topic. If somebody says he knows 8 languages
fluently, at age 20, then it's really not an impossible thing. While
learning one language means a lot of work, the second language is much
less, if you take advantage of loanwords and similar structures. With
every language you know, this workload gets smaller and smaller. For
example: do you really think, learning Italian and Spanish, if you
already know basic latin, is like learning 2 languages? I'd say, Italian
makes 0.75 languages, and once you know this, Spanish is 0.5 language.
Make the math: 1.25 language (as speaking of the workload). Add Romanian
to this (0.5) and you have 3 languages with the work for 2. One language
for free, isn't that cool?

Vale bene,
G. Noviodunus Ferriculus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:37:46 -0000

Salve Hurtie,

You thank you for your response, your point is well taken. I would
only hope that the new Latin would not regress like our English has
over the last 50 years where great prose and wit has been replaced
with all the street talk and bad f words. Even though I'm not
perfect, like a little crudity or joke off and on I don't like
hearing that 24 hours a day. I was looking for example at a copy of
Boy's Own Paper, 1892 edition. That book was written for boys 9 - 11
years old in prep school. The vocabulary, language, articles and
comprehension style needed are equal to a University text today. I
can say the same thing about many other books and literature. Do you
find the same situation in your native tongue?

Vale bene,

Quintus
-- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:
> Salve Pauline
>
> Uhm, I myself studied 5 yrs. Latin and 2 yrs. ancient
> Greek during my time at school, plus French and
> English. What I had in mind with Latino sine Flexione
> was, as I pointed out already, that, if there will
> ever be a comeback of Latin as a living language, it
> will certainly be closer to vulgar Latin AND it will
> require a lot of new vocabulary. As it was/is the case
> with Hebrew.
>
> BTW, the Latin in the Nuntii Latini is, despite its
> vocabulary, classic.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> =====
> A. Hirtius Helveticus
> ------------------------------
> paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
> http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
> ------------------------------
> Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
> icq: 155762490
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
> Möchten Sie mit einem Gruß antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: ?
From:	"cassius622" <cassius622@aol.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:52:06 -0000

Salve,

Well, I think there *were* some barbarians at the gates - until they
broke into a couple of tavernas outside the city walls and got into
the wine.

The only actual fighting was among themselves. I DO think many of the
Citizens went up to the walls to watch, shout encouragements, throw
garbage and make wagers, though! Then, of course, there was the
leisurely walk outside the gates to pick up fallen swords, shields,
etc...

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I hope the Barbarians are not at the gates of Nova Roma! Is
everyone
> out fighting today? The message board is quiter than usual. Take
care.
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Learning Languages (was: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!)
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:54:08 +0200 (CEST)

Salve Ferricule

--- "G. Noviodunus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
schrieb:
<snip>
> Heh. Do you have a Finnish or Hungarian friend by
> any chance? They have
> something like 20 cases. Good luck indeed!

I had the luck to grow up bilingual (German/Finnish),
because my mother comes from Finland. Therefore I have
a fair knowledge of Finnish (speaking and reading are
no problem, but I still have difficulties in writing,
since I never learned it the proper way in school). As
far as I remember, there are 17 cases in Finnish, but
you have to understand that the language doesn't have
much praepositions and uses cases for it.

But there are several fellow citizen from Provincia
Thule here who surely know more about the Finnish
grammar than I do.

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

__________________________________________________________________

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:43:35 -0400

Pro. Postumius Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

All I can say on this topic is "Why not?" It's always good to learn another language, even if it is theoretically 'dead;' it can only increase your brain power. But that's my own contention on that.

As for not modifying Latin, there is a problem with this. For example, I don't think the Romans had such contraptions such as my beloved cello or even a piano, so words would have to be implemented for certain things, but for things we already have words for, or words with meanings so close that any person could understand what was being said, I see no reason for adding to the already extensive vocabulary of Latin. But again, those are just my personal thoughts.

Valete,

Pro. Postumius
--
Scriba Curatoris Aranei
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Vivo!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: ?
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:06:29 -0000

Salve Cassie,
While your here I just wanted to say thanks for letting the MSN
Roman History group know about NR a few months ago. That's how I
found out about it. Its been a real slice here!

Regards Quintus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "cassius622" <cassius622@a...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Well, I think there *were* some barbarians at the gates - until
they
> broke into a couple of tavernas outside the city walls and got into
> the wine.
>
> The only actual fighting was among themselves. I DO think many of
the
> Citizens went up to the walls to watch, shout encouragements, throw
> garbage and make wagers, though! Then, of course, there was the
> leisurely walk outside the gates to pick up fallen swords, shields,
> etc...
>
> Vale,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > I hope the Barbarians are not at the gates of Nova Roma! Is
> everyone
> > out fighting today? The message board is quiter than usual. Take
> care.
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:11:36 +0200 (CEST)

Salve Pauline

--- miguelkelly15 <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:
> I would
> only hope that the new Latin would not regress like
> our English has
> over the last 50 years where great prose and wit has
> been replaced
> with all the street talk and bad f words.

Ah well, have you ever read any Roman graphiti from
Pompei or Herculaneum? Our Roman forefathers certainly
weren't afraid of using the f-words neither...

> Do you
> find the same situation in your native tongue?

Imho language is determined by social milieu,
upbringing and education. Of course there are
tendencies in German spoken language which I simply
can't approve, but as it had been pointed out here
already, people and societies change, and so do their
languages.

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Greek Dances
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:20:09 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Valeria Constantina Iuliana--

I think learning Greek dances would be a lovely idea!
I used to know how to do a couple, the Karaguna and
the Kalamatianos. It's been a while since I last
danced them, though. :( If no Roman dances have
survived, then yes, I think Greek dances would be the
next best thing.

---
Renata Corva


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:16:40 -0400

Salve Quintus,

You wrote:
"You thank you for your response, your point is well taken. I would
only hope that the new Latin would not regress like our English has
over the last 50 years where great prose and wit has been replaced
with all the street talk and bad f words."

The demise of the English language has been grossly overestimated. Some of the classics of English literature -- Hemingway, Nin, Lawrence, even Shakespeare -- are rife with sexual humor and vulgarity. Also, you're referring to print materials, not spoken language. Spoken language hasn't changed during my lifetime nearly as much as publication standards: When first published, "Catcher in the Rye" was scandalous not so much because the main character used the words that he did, but because those words were committed to *print*... if published now, "Catcher in the Rye" would raise only a few eyebrows. It's been within my (34-year) lifetime that American dictionaries have uniformly drifted from not listing "f---" to listing it (compare a dictionary with a copyright of 1970 or so to a dictionary with a copyright of 2000 or so), while the OED of the late 19th Century -- the most comprehensive dictionary at the time it was published -- didn't include the word at all. Certainly, the word was less commonly heard then, but it was certainly more common even in 1890 than the majority of the words that the OED *did* list.

If Latin is to be a functional language that serves the needs of its users as something other than an elite code, it is vulnerable to change. Change need not be a degradation. I'm not saying that Latin *must* be updated, only that I don't agree with holding to a strict line that it *cannot* be updated.

-- Festus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:34:10 +0200 (CEST)

Salve Pauline

Here are some examples of grafitti from Pompeii
(Translations are not mine!):

Arphocras hic cum Drauca bene futuit denario.
Here Harpocras has had a good f*** with Drauca for a
denarius. (CIL IV, 2193)

Suspirium puellarum Celadus thraex.
Celadus the Thracier makes the girls moan. (CIL IV,
4397)

Myrtis bene felas.
I do not dare to give a translation to this, in
respect to our female citizens ;o)

So much for the F-words...

You may find more of these:

http://newsport.org/archive/s97/graffiti/pompeji.html
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/inscriptions.html

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:45:22 EDT

In a message dated 8/20/02 8:42:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hirtius75ch@yahoo.de writes:


> if there will
> ever be a comeback of Latin as a living language, it
> will certainly be closer to vulgar Latin AND it will
> require a lot of new vocabulary.

Salvete.

I see it as two languages. Classical form for writing, while a form of
Vulgate for speech.
The latter cannot be helped, like the original, Latin becomes barbarised as
it spreads.
An excellent example is found in reading Byzantine. It is still a form of
Latin, but with many Greek, Germanic, Avar, and Hunnish thrown in as well.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:53:32 EDT

In a message dated 8/20/02 10:35:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hirtius75ch@yahoo.de writes:


> Suspirium puellarum Celadus thraex.
>

Thraex means he fights in the Thracian style. Girls have always moaned over
athletes!
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] About Chariot Races
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:59:14 EDT

In a message dated 8/20/02 1:11:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mcserapio@yahoo.it writes:


> Among
> these peoples, races were associated with funeral games, and in Rome
>

Salvete
If you could show me the primary source(s) for this statement, I'd appreciate
it. And please do not use Tertullius. If you, do you have misread his
statements.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:07:04 -0000

Salve Feste,

In my 49 years I feel like I have seen the spoken word deteriorate.
Part of my feelings on this matter comes from what my parents, grand
parents and many other people in their 70's, 80's and 90's have to
say on that matter. Certainly these bad words have been in English
for 1000 years or more. There frequent overuse came in the 60's I
remember because the hippie generation often liked to shock the
older. I even asked my father, an x-navy man what the word meant when
I was 11 and I just about had my head taken off. When the girl used
those words at that time she was classed as a ... you know. I talked
to a student a few months ago who almost got suspended for using the
word "cotton picking" (from Andy Griffith show).They are not teaching
much history in our schools anymore so he wasn't familiar with the
old southern plantation mentality. Another student called a girl a
word that starts with f and ends with b; nothing was said.

True there was a lot of inferred vulgarity and sex in our
classic books. The difference is that they were more inferred not so
graphic as today. I agree they were head spinners in their time. If
you have a chance watch the "Christmas Carol" with Alister Simm and
watch the scene where Scrooge offers to by the company from his boss
who just got caught for embezzelment. After that, watch Wall Street
with Michael Douglas and watch the scene where he gets nailed for
embezzelment. Quite a difference in the eloquence of the language I
must say! I can think of hundreds of other samples on the streets, in
books, and the media. I guess the best solution to our discussion is
to build a time machine, go back to the pubs, restaruants and taverns
in different eras and see what gives.

Well with regards to Latin, I am sure there is a place for
the Grafitti type language like on the walls in Pompei but I hope
they would respect the eloquent language of Cicero, Cato, etc.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus

-- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Paul Kershaw" <brighn@y...> wrote:
> Salve Quintus,
>
> You wrote:
> "You thank you for your response, your point is well taken. I would
> only hope that the new Latin would not regress like our English has
> over the last 50 years where great prose and wit has been replaced
> with all the street talk and bad f words."
>
> The demise of the English language has been grossly overestimated.
Some of the classics of English literature -- Hemingway, Nin,
Lawrence, even Shakespeare -- are rife with sexual humor and
vulgarity. Also, you're referring to print materials, not spoken
language. Spoken language hasn't changed during my lifetime nearly as
much as publication standards:

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:23:00 -0000

Salve Hertius,
Yes, I have some of that graffitie in my books too. My point is was
that language tend to overused everyday in general conversation, in
their communication and at the dinner tables like in English today?

Vale,

Quintus --

- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...> wrote:
> Salve Pauline
>
> Here are some examples of grafitti from Pompeii
> (Translations are not mine!):
>
> Arphocras hic cum Drauca bene futuit denario.
> Here Harpocras has had a good f*** with Drauca for a
> denarius. (CIL IV, 2193)
>
> Suspirium puellarum Celadus thraex.
> Celadus the Thracier makes the girls moan. (CIL IV,
> 4397)
>
> Myrtis bene felas.
> I do not dare to give a translation to this, in
> respect to our female citizens ;o)
>
> So much for the F-words...
>
> You may find more of these:
>
> http://newsport.org/archive/s97/graffiti/pompeji.html
> http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/inscriptions.html
>
> Vale bene,
>
> =====
> A. Hirtius Helveticus
> ------------------------------
> paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
> http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
> ------------------------------
> Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
> icq: 155762490
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
> Möchten Sie mit einem Gruß antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Using Classical Latin, a clarification on my part!
From:	GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT)

SALVETE OMNES! When I stated that we should stick with
Classical Latin language, what I was especially
refering to was in regards to saying our prayers and
rites in classical Latin! I would not be against an
updated Latin if it ever became a spoken language
again. But for speaking to the Gods in prayer, or
whenever we perform a rite, I strongly believe it
should be in classical Latin! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIANVS

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:51:29 -0400

Salve A. Hirtius Helveticus,

"Myrtis bene felas.
I do not dare to give a translation to this, in
respect to our female citizens ;o)"

Might I at least be safe in assuming that Myrtis is a name, while "felas" is a verb with an obvious English cognate? ("bene" I know ;} ).

-- Festus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:25:58 -0400

Salve Quintus,

With no offense intended to your ancestors, the sentiment that language or culture is deteriorating is as old as language and culture. These things don't deteriorate as much as the weights given to various things shift: For instance, concepts of civil liberties loosen (for the better, IMHO), but the exchange for that is that people feel freer to use certain types of language -- the result being, for someone who values discreet use of vulgarity (if at all), things get worse, while for someone who values cultural liberties, things improve.

For my own part, I happen to agree with you that literature today lacks the finesse that it had a century ago, and that people are freer than they should be with obscenities. But the English of a century ago still exists, and if you want to limit yourself to it, it's still possible to do so and communicate well. As another posted indicated, there's room for both a graceful written language and a more vulgar spoken language, if people choose... that model is back up not just by English, but by the other literate cultures I'm aware of. Furthermore, the shifts that have taken place in English over the last century -- such as they are -- aren't inevitable in spoken languages. After all, Modern English has been spoken since Shakespeare's time, and yet the sudden burst in swearing has only really occurred in the last 50 years or so. That period also saw significant shifts towards the proper as well as the prurient, depending on the time period. Living languages shift here and there, good and bad... otherwise they're not living.

Vale,
Festus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:16:09 +0200 (CEST)

Salve Feste

> Might I at least be safe in assuming that Myrtis is
> a name, while "felas" is a verb with an obvious
> English cognate? ("bene" I know ;} ).

Yup, correct.

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:26:07 +0200 (CEST)

Salve Pauline

> My point is was
> that language tend to overused everyday in general
> conversation, in
> their communication and at the dinner tables like in
> English today?

As I said before, usage of language is imho determined
by social and other factors. While talking with
friends, some people may call our language rude or
even vulgar. But I would never use any of these words
or expressions at dinner table f.ex.

I agree, that sometimes, certain expressions are
overused, but on the other hand - to be honest - I
think that this is due to the
*when-I-was-young-everything-was-better*-attitude most
people acquire when they get older (and I say this as
a 27 yrs. old who sometimes feels like that about the
current teenager's language...). Alas, O tempora, o
mores!

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Using Classical Latin, a clarification on my part!
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:07:19 EDT

I certainly agree, Frater Gaius Iulianus!
Apicius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Great Conversation
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:40:43 -0000

Salvete Gentlemen,
Thanks for the stimulating conversation and good points about
languages. I'll certainly ponder and digest your points of view. This
NR is great, so many postings a day. Some other clubs a belong to
only get one message a week or month. I have to hit the road now but
I look forward to talking to you soon!

Valete bene,

Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:59:27 -0400

Salvete,

Not only that, but the strength of words change, not always in the same direction. Some words (from the barbarian tongue ;} ) that have become stronger over time include "broad" (i.e., woman), "rape," "ni--er," and "fa--ot," while the example of "cotton-picking" is an excellent example of a word that's lost its literal (denigrating) meaning for the youngsters (I've read unconvincing claims, meanwhile, that "denigrate" -- literally, to blacken -- is also a racial slur), and "damn" has lost most of its impact. "Bloody" and "zounds" have similar etymologies -- both deriving from Christian oaths (by our Lady and God's wounds, respectively) -- but the former is much stronger than the latter today, and hardly anyone thinks of the Christian oaths.

I take these examples from English because it's what I know well, but the linguistic phenomenon apply equally to just about any language, including Latin. The point is, a word that a 90-year-old may be shocked at may be perfectly commonplace for a teenager, and vice versa. Language is very malleable: to context, to user sets, to emotional purpose, to communicative content...

-- Festus
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Hirtius Helveticus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Grafitti from Pompeii and F-words


Salve Pauline

> My point is was
> that language tend to overused everyday in general
> conversation, in
> their communication and at the dinner tables like in
> English today?

As I said before, usage of language is imho determined
by social and other factors. While talking with
friends, some people may call our language rude or
even vulgar. But I would never use any of these words
or expressions at dinner table f.ex.

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Thank you for today's very interesting discussion
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:11:02 -0000

Salvete!

Thank you for today's very interesting discussion on language. Since
I am currently suffering from viral conjunctivitis (a viral infection
of the eyes) I must make this brief as I can before I begin tearing
up again and add my few cents worth in:

1) Should Latin again become a common language it would need to be
updated to include modern inventions such as "Internet", "washing
machine" "television" and even the not so modern "telegraph" just to
name a few.

2) I too feel that common English has deteriorated and political
correctness has taken its toll as well. I remember the "Niggardly
Controversy" that took place in Washington, D.C. The word means,
stingy, miserly, penny-pinching, and was used in correct context, but
because it sounded like the "N-word" the user was hounded out of
office. Part of this was ignorance of what the word meant, though
mostly the incident was used for political purposes. All in all, I
think there has been a dumbing-down of American English. Though the
French complain that French is being corrupted and "dumbed-down" so I
don't think this is strictly an American linguistic phenomena.

3) Shakespeare did have a bawdy side. In Hamlet where Hamlet tells
Ophelia to "Get thee to a nunnery", today it appears he is telling
her to become a nun. However, in context of the times it has two
other possible meanings. Nunnery was "slang" for house of ill-
repute. In short he was calling her a whore (pardon the
expression). The other alternative meaning was that she was pregnant
out of wedlock. It was not uncommon for a wealthy young girl in that
situation to be secretly sent to a convent and the child put up for
adoption. Either way, rather risque material for the times. Frankly
I like that Shakespeare didn't spell it right out, leaves some room
for the audience's imagination and participation. That was
Shakespeare's drama, his comedies were very bawdy.

4) Roman literature was not always the high minded fair such as
Livy. Plautus' comedies were fairly low brow with absurd plotlines
and dependence upon misunderstandings. Plautus works have far more
incommon with the sit-com "Married with Children" (considered to have
pushed the envelope and lowered the standards of good taste) than the
sit-com "Father Knows Best." I think, Plautus would have felt right
at home as a writer for Marries with Children.

An example from Plautus' play, "Comedy of Asses" Demaenetus is the
hen-pecked husband who's is imbezzling money from under his wife's
(Artemona) nose to subsidize his son's (Argryippus) love affair with
the daughter (Philaenium) of the local "madam"(Cleareta). A rival
of Argryippus informs Artemona what is happening and she happens to
overhear the following conversation:

Philaenium: Do tell me, there's a dear -- your wife's breath isn't
bad, is it?

Demaenetus: I'd rather drink bildge water, if it came to that, than
kiss her.

Artemona (aside): So? You would, would you? Good gracious, sir,
that fling at me will cost you dear. Very well! just you come back
home, sir! I'll show you the danger of vilifying a wife with money.

Philaenium: Goodness me, you poor thing!

Artemona (aside): Goodness me; he deserves to be!

Agryrippus: Look here, father. Do you love my mother?

Demaenetus: Love her? I? I love her now for not being near.

Agryrippus: And when she is near?

Demaenetus: I yearn for a death in the family

At this point Artemona enters the scene and smothers Demaenetus with
kisses. Except for the monied wife part I can picture Al, Bud, and
probably instead of Philaenium it would be the Jefferson D'Arcy
having this conversation with Peg listening in! The translation I
quote is from "Plautus" translated by Paul Nixon, Loeb Classical
Library, Harvard University Press, 1950

With this, as my eyes water, I close.

Valete,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Learning Languages (was: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!)
From:	Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus <gualterus@erudition.net>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:43:29 -0400

Salve,

<snip>


> Now I'm really tempted to learn Russian or any other slavic language,
> since Romanian really opened a door to that field. You can find plenty
> of words that have both a romance and a slavic counterpart. For example
> "time" is "timp" or "ceas" [pronounced 'chus']. The latter being slavic.
> Those who know Russian have recognized the word, for sure!!
>

It's nice to see interest in slavic languages. Just to give you some
more information, the latter, "chus" definitely seems to have slavic
origin, although, the meaning varies a bit. In Ukrainian "time" is
"chas," whereas in Russian "time" is "vremya" and "hour" is "chas,"
while in Ukrainian "hour" is "hodina." It would make sense that the word
is closer to Ukrainian than Russian because of regional proximity. I've
also noticed other similarities between Ukrainian and Romanian (via a
Romanian acquaintance), although, I can't recall them at the time being.

<snip>

> Vale bene,
> G. Noviodunus Ferriculus

- M. Cornelius Gualterus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Languages
From:	"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:57:25 -0000

Salvete omnes--Speaking of languages, does anyone here know any
Mongolian Khalkh? That is a language I'm interested in learning.

---
Renata Corva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] to gualterus grecus
From:	"brodrig22" <brodrig22@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:11:01 -0000

i'm sorry to inform you that "ceas" doesnt mean time in romanian, it
just means "clock", as in the instrument.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] about romanian noun cases
From:	"brodrig22" <brodrig22@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:15:51 -0000

Gaius Novidunus, wrong, Romanian has 5 noun cases
The nominative is different from the accusative , and the dative
from the genitive, and there is also the vocative.