Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] to gualterus grecus
From:	Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus <gualterus@erudition.net>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:41:39 -0400

Ah, interesting :)

- Gualterus


brodrig22 wrote:

>
>
> i'm sorry to inform you that "ceas" doesnt mean time in romanian, it
> just means "clock", as in the instrument.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:05:16 EDT

Not that I'm anybody special, but I must admit feeling totally disappointed
that not one person---not one---has responded to anything I had to say about
upgrading Latin, how languages naturally evolve, and the clarification
between Classical and Vulgar Latin as which to choose for upgrading. I
thought I was adding something worthwhile, but I guess I was sadly and
embarrassingly wrong.
Apicius Faunius Comissator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@texas.net>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:23:54 -0500

Salvete Apici Fauni et omnes

> Not that I'm anybody special, but I must admit feeling totally disappointed
> that not one person---not one---has responded to anything I had to say about
> upgrading Latin, how languages naturally evolve, and the clarification
> between Classical and Vulgar Latin as which to choose for upgrading. I
> thought I was adding something worthwhile, but I guess I was sadly and
> embarrassingly wrong.

Personally, I thought your post added to the conversation. It's my
impression that we don't really know enough about the vulgar Latin of
the Republic to reconstruct it completely enough for use. Therefore, it
seems more feasible to use Classical Latin as a foundation from which to
grow.

However, I'm not exactly a scholar in the field, and I refrained from
replying to you at the time in part because I am not entirely sure of
the state of linguistic analysis of Republican vulgar Latin, and partly
because I was rather busy shortly after reading your post. I receive a
lot of e-mail each day, and it was soon drowned in the deluge.

FWIW, there are a number of living Latin societies in existence, and at
least some of them have increased the ancient vocabulary to include such
neologisms as "littera electronica" for e-mail. Our own Sodalitas
Latinitas approved a fairly long list of such words for possible use in
Nova Roman Latin, but the sodalitas has unfortunately not progressed
very far past that point due to a lack of people who are both motivated
and fluent in Latin.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:26:41 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Apicius Faunius,

I beleave the lack of responses may be due to the fact
that this is a matter that requires some careful
thought, and that some of our citizens may be mulling
it over.

As for myself, I view classical Latin as a treasure to
be preserved in it's purity, and would like to see as
few changes as possible to it. In Antiquita Classical
Latin was preserved as the language of Ceremony, of
the Religio, and of Lititure, and I feel that we
should follow this path to preserve it's purity.

Let the Modernisms become a part of a commonly spoken
Vulgur Latin.

--- Pan144@aol.com wrote:
> Not that I'm anybody special, but I must admit
> feeling totally disappointed
> that not one person---not one---has responded to
> anything I had to say about
> upgrading Latin, how languages naturally evolve, and
> the clarification
> between Classical and Vulgar Latin as which to
> choose for upgrading. I
> thought I was adding something worthwhile, but I
> guess I was sadly and
> embarrassingly wrong.
> Apicius Faunius Comissator
>



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	"Amanda Bowen" <reason_prevails@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:43:54 -0500

>As for myself, I view classical Latin as a treasure to
>be preserved in it's purity, and would like to see as
>few changes as possible to it. In Antiquita Classical
>Latin was preserved as the language of Ceremony, of
>the Religio, and of Lititure, and I feel that we
>should follow this path to preserve it's purity.

Much of the debate on Classical versus "Vulgar" Latin can be traced back to
the Humanist scholars of the late Renaissance, who broke with the Medieval
secular (as opposed to ecclesiastical; they were most emphatically *not* the
same language) Latin, for just this same reason. They believed it was
something to cherish, and that it somehow made them higher beings to be able
to speak "unstained" Latin, and to read the Roman authors in their original
language. My personal preference is the Medieval secular (many pronunciation
differences, along with the different/additional words) but as that has no
place in NR, I will use what Classical Latin I have acquired :)

If the focus of NR is mainly the Religio and the State, then I would say
speak the language which in Antiquity was preserved for such things, but of
course this is only my opinion.

Drusilla Cornelia Crispina Orbiana

ps - when someone recreates the Latinesque jargon of the legions, I'll
hasten to learn that, as well.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:21:00 EDT

Salve, L. Sicinius Drusus.
Thank you for your response. I agree with you completely on keeping
the pure Classical form for ceremony, religio, and literature. But a
universally accepted form of the Vulgate would be wonderful for
communication. Thanks again.
Apicius



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:23:50 EDT

Thank you, T Labienus Fortunatus. Your comments are much appreciated. I agree
with everything you said. We really don't know very much about the Vulgate
of, say, Republican times, but it would be very agreeable to use Classical
Latin as a base for an updated common language. Thanks again.
Apicius





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"T. Cornelius Crispus" <centuriocornelius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:02:01 -0500

Salvete,
Pro. Postumius schrieb:
>>>As for not modifying Latin, there is a problem with this. For example, I
don't think the Romans had such contraptions such as my beloved cello or
even a piano, so words would have to be implemented for certain things, but
for things we already have words for, or words with meanings so close that
any person could understand what was being said, I see no reason for adding
to the already extensive vocabulary of Latin. But again, those are just my
personal thoughts.

There are some words being used for some of our modern contraptions. My
family and I are starting the journey of learning Latin. (or Roman as my
six-year-old calls it) We have opted to use computer language teaching
programs, so we can hear and get the correct pronounciations. One of the
simple vocabulary programs we found has words for some modern items. For
example; Telephone = Longivox, Compact Disk = Orbis Compacta, an Iron =
Ferrum, Matches = Cerillae, Taxi is Carrus Conductus, etc.
I thought that was interesting, as I would like for our family to converse
in Latin at some point in the future.
Vale,
T. Cornelius Crispus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Disappointment
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 04:33:52 -0000

Salve Apicius,

As some of us are not Latin scholars,I for one, was only trying to
use other languages I am familiar with as an analogy to Latin. You
know just as some instructors use water in a piping system to help
explain the teaching of electricity. I felt using the Engish and
vulgar English comparison as an analogy is valid and similar in an
illustrative way.

Yours respectively,

Quintus Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Pan144@a... wrote:
> Not that I'm anybody special, but I must admit feeling totally
disappointed
> that not one person---not one---has responded to anything I had to
say about
> upgrading Latin, how languages naturally evolve, and the
clarification
> between Classical and Vulgar Latin as which to choose for
upgrading. I
> thought I was adding something worthwhile, but I guess I was sadly
and
> embarrassingly wrong.
> Apicius Faunius Comissator
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:17:20 -0400

Salve,

Not that I have much room to talk, but most of my posts have gone without response. Just a note, you'll get used to it. I have.

On the side, I did read your statements, I just didn't have the time to respond to them. I keep myself busy, perhaps too busy, a lot of times, and sometimes, like in this case, I'm just too much of a lazy bum to respond. However, if you'd like my input, I have but this to say:

Classical Latin is my preferred language for use within Nova Roma. Vulgar Latin will, inevitably, make it's way in, especially with the 'commoners' and the 'politicians' when they want to "bash" on each other (no pun intended to Octavius). I would like to, myself, become fluent enough with Latin to speak it ad lib. in common language. However, that's a long way off for now. With regard to NR, though, it should be said that we are intended to be (Cassius, please correct me if I'm wrong) a recreation of Classical Rome, and so language is, as Q. Fabius said, a part of Roman culture and existence. So take that as you wish.

Optime Vale,

Pro. Postumius
--
Scriba Curatoris Aranei
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Vivo!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Learning Languages (was: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC
From:	"G. Noviodunus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:01:20 +0200

Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus schrieb:
> Salve,
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>Now I'm really tempted to learn Russian or any other slavic language,
>>since Romanian really opened a door to that field. You can find plenty
>>of words that have both a romance and a slavic counterpart. For example
>>"time" is "timp" or "ceas" [pronounced 'chus']. The latter being slavic.
>>Those who know Russian have recognized the word, for sure!!
>>
>
>
> It's nice to see interest in slavic languages. Just to give you some
> more information, the latter, "chus" definitely seems to have slavic
> origin, although, the meaning varies a bit. In Ukrainian "time" is
> "chas," whereas in Russian "time" is "vremya" and "hour" is "chas,"
> while in Ukrainian "hour" is "hodina."

Thanks for this complementary information. Anyways, "vremea" is also a
Romanian word which means "the weather", but you can also say "timp" for
the weather. As for "hodina", this also exists in Romanian, as an
alternate word for "odihna", which means "rest" (like in "rest" in
peace), which definitely has something to do with time ;-)

Now reading this, you think: "Romanian is a slavic language!". Well no,
but as I mentioned before, it's full of slavic words, and so it's a very
easy language to use as a basis to your slavic studies...

Valete bene

G. Noviodunus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] eyes
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:51:40 -0400

Quintus Cassius, I'm sorry about your eyes! May Minerva Medica grant you
swift healing.

Your situation prompted me to quickly look up Roman-era eye medicine.
Apparently they had a moderately successful form of cataract surgery!

I do not, however, recommend this procedure: "A blind soldier named
Valerius Apes, having consulted the oracle, was informed that he should
mix the blood of a white cock with honey, to make up an ointment to be
applied to his eyes, for three consecutive days: he received his sight,
and returned public thanks to the gods."

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] re: Nomen Meum
From:	"gkbagne" <gkbagne@hotmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:28:03 -0000

>From Aula Decia Lepella To All, Salvete
I do medieval historical recreation with a group that also uses
period names, but they make up historical personas to become at
events. However in Nova Roma we are not pretending to be someone
else, so I tried to pick a name that reflects who I really am.
My father's name was Auldus, very close to the traditional Roman
name Aulus. There is nothing even close in sound or meaning to my
last name so I chose the gens name Decius because it was an empty
gens and I didn't wan't to wait for a reply by some paterfamilia I
didn't know. Traditionaly my third name should be Dua or Minora but
I noticed that historical men often had nicknames in this position so
I assume this was a custom for women as well. As a child my nickname
within the family was Bunny. "Little rabbit" wasn't very euphonius
in Latin, but "little hare" sounds right to me!
Be Well!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Learning Languages (was: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!)
From:	Marcus Cornelius Gualterus Graecus <gualterus@erudition.net>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:19:45 -0400

> Now reading this, you think: "Romanian is a slavic language!". Well no,
> but as I mentioned before, it's full of slavic words, and so it's a very
> easy language to use as a basis to your slavic studies...


Oh, I definitely know it's not a slavic language :) It would only stand
to reason that its proximity to slavic populations would encourage word
borrowing.

- M. Cornelius Gualterus


> Valete bene
>
> G. Noviodunus
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	Pan144@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:29:31 EDT

Salve, Pro. Postumius.

Thank you for your input. Concerning what you had to say, let me just
add that everyone should understand that the so-called "Classical Latin" was
NOT the language used in everyday speech by Romans. It was a very stylized
version, and Romans would have given double-takes if they'd heard others
trying to use it in the markets, the streets, at home with family, or even in
the fora. It's most likely that only formal speeches in the fora or other
public places would have been given in "Classical Latin." That's why trying
to use this literary and stylized form of the language in everyday
communication would be erroneous. Thanks again for your input.

>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Psychology of Reenacting
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:52:41 -0000

Salvete,

Have you ever wondered at the site of grown men pretending to be
soldiers from a bygone era? Men in their twenties, thirties, forties,
or older who plunk down hundreds of dollars to purchase armor,
uniforms, weapons, and tents, and go out reenacting---what is their
motivation?

Ask a reenactor at an event and he will look very serious and tell
you that he is a living historian who wants to know what his forbears
went through, or that he is honoring hallowed war dead. And he
believes every word he is saying! He is right of course, at least in
part. You can't reenact well without study of the drills and uniforms
use of weapons. Reenactors pride themselves on authenticity. And the
revernce part is also not without truth. Reenactors like to portray
soldiers they admire and respect. {Some DO reenact evil soldiers,
like the Waffen SS. But that is so the Allied reenactor-soldiers can
have someone to shoot at. The public likes battles, and that means
someone has to be the bad guy.}

Now I did a season of Civil War reenacting, so I am not totally
ignorant of the mindset. And I submit that when a man leaves his wife
behind for a weekend instead of mowing the grass or helping her with
the house cleaning, that he is really *reeacting his childhood*! In
the pre-Columbine world I grew up in, getting out the plastic machine
gun or rife and blasting your friend's heads off was everyboy's
God-Given Right! On the playgrounds of Glen Haven Elementary and in
the woods of Sligo Creek Park, I went down with the ships of Pearl
Harbor, repulsed Pickets Charge at Gettysburg, and ran for my life on
the Planet of the Apes! I even shot Hitler point-blank a few times!
And one of our biggest causes for thanksgiving was that we did NOT
have those parents who were 60's Peace Creeps who proudly told their
neighbors that they won't allow their kids to play war games. {Don't
people like that make you want to vomit?} We also would play Star
Trek, and there was one boy named Mike Caldwell who always wanted to
be a "red shirt". If someone had to be squashed by a huge ape-like
creature, or get his blood sucked out by a vapourous cloud, it would
be Mike. He also liked being Mr. Chekov, since Chekov was a screamer
and was always good for getting zapped with the Agonizer. {I have no
idea where Mike is today, but I suspect he is the subject of a
Psychiatry students Doctor's Thesis}

Now don't reenactors pretty much like the same thing, in a vastly
more sophisitcated {and expensive} form? Leaving the wife behind and
going out to play with guns and swords....It's a guys dream!

I wouldn't mind playing myself, but I cannot afford it and sadly do
not have the time. To join the ranks of Roman Reenactors under the
Eagles and run around in a dress with a sword sounds like great fun.
Perhaps someday.....

Gaius Cassius Nerva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: eyes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:24:33 -0000

Salve Patricia Cassia,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...> wrote:
> Quintus Cassius, I'm sorry about your eyes! May Minerva Medica
grant you
> swift healing.


Thank you. Unfortunately it being viral it has to run its course.
There are anti-virals available, but the side effects... Let's just
say I can live with itchy runny eyes rather than other "runs".


> Your situation prompted me to quickly look up Roman-era eye
medicine.
> Apparently they had a moderately successful form of cataract
surgery!
>
> I do not, however, recommend this procedure: "A blind soldier named
> Valerius Apes, having consulted the oracle, was informed that he
should
> mix the blood of a white cock with honey, to make up an ointment to
be
> applied to his eyes, for three consecutive days: he received his
sight,
> and returned public thanks to the gods."

A little more messy than the Biblical method of spit and mud, but
since the Rabbi Yeshua bar Yosef isn't in town to provide the spit,
and the honey and rooster blood is a bit messy, I'll just continue to
suffer for a couple more days.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Disappointment
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:26:43 -0000

Salve Apicius Faunius Comissator,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Pan144@a... wrote:
> Not that I'm anybody special, but I must admit feeling totally
disappointed
> that not one person---not one---has responded to anything I had to
say about
> upgrading Latin, how languages naturally evolve, and the
clarification
> between Classical and Vulgar Latin as which to choose for
upgrading. I
> thought I was adding something worthwhile, but I guess I was sadly
and
> embarrassingly wrong.

No need to be disappointed you sparked a lively discussion!

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latina sine Flexiones
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <salixdavianus@terra.es>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:51:28 +0200

Salvete,

My opinion is that the difficult part of use correctly any language is to learn massive vocabulary. If we try to learn Latine sine flexio or Classical Latin the problem is basically the same. The grammatical subtilities are easy learned with the practice indeed. If we look at the inscriptions of Pompeii or at the commedies of Plautus we see an style of Latin that easily can be understood ... I think that this popular Latin is the language that we must promotionate in NR (not the subtilities of the stylye of Horatius or Lucretius).

Cl. Salix Davianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:20:06 -0400 (EDT)

Honored Civ;

I am not sure why you are disappointed. There are several reasons for
not recieving a reponse to an E-Mail on this net. Some of these reasons
have already been aired here, another is that there are those of us who
do not care particularly about the Latin language. It is not a topic of
interest for me, and it is not a language that I am interested
particularly in discussing. I speak English and that not very well. I
do not do well with other languages as both they and mathematics are
difficult for me. You won't hear taking much about Algebra or Quantum
Mechanics either.

I have posted several times to this list regarding historical items of
interest to me, without any response. My Praefecti in the Sodalitas
Militarium and Egressus do the same, and recieve little or no
recognition except in a general way.

The point here is not to expect a response but rather to share something
of interest to you, with others interested in the Roman History or
Culture. Be sure that someone on this list appreciates it, whether you
get a reply or not. If the topic does not arouse a great deal of
interest, or if the topic is one which is nice to know about, but not
controversial you probably won't get a response at all. If you provide
an opinion that the others on this list disagree with, rest assured that
you will hear probably more than you ever wished to hear about your post
(Grin!!!!!!).

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Popular Latin
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <salixdavianus@terra.es>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:14:22 +0200

Salvete cives,

>>For me, I find the conjugation of nouns a royal pain in the you know
where! Happily Spanish and French dropped that over 500 years ago from what
I read. Still, I wish to
master noun conjugations because all Eastern European languages,
German, Romanian, Greek and Arabic all have noun conjugations.<<

CASES IN LATE LATIN
In later Latin the five declensions were reduced to three because fourth
declension (u-stems) were confussed with second (o-stems), and fifth
declension (e-stems) with first (a-stems). In addition around 3th century
due partially to phonetic changes accusative and ablative become equivalent
in some environments. Later we see dative used instead of genitive (due to
equivalency of some examples of dative and genitive). This leave a sistem of
3 cases:
a) Nominative-Vocative
b) Accusative-Ablative
c) Genitive-Dative

In Old French, Old Provenzal and some dialects of Nothern Italy a system of
two cases based (on Nom.-Voc and Acc.-Abl.) were preserved until nineth or
tenth century. In modern Romanian still survive a system of two cases.
Hispanic Latin probably lost cases around 7th century (before the appareance
of the first texts in Old Spanish).

In Greek we also found in byzantine Greek around 12th centuries almost
confusion complete confusion of dative and genitive (in fact "dative" case
in ancient Greek is a kind of dative-ablative case). The system of modern
greek is now:
a) Nominative
b) Accusative
c) Genitive-Dative-Ablative
[And uses as romanic languages extensively prepositons of case marking]

SLAVIC AND GERMAN
Nowadays possess cases but the system is much reduced that the systems we
find in ancient germanic dialects of the Roman Times or the language known
as Old Slavonic (9th century). In fact, most eastern IE language present
evidences that the cases will undergo probably the same fate that the cases
of Latin

ARABIC
Modern arabic has lost the case markings, only Classical Arabic (the
language of Qur'an has case endigns, but already in a erosioned form).

Cl. Salix Davianus
=====================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LETS STICK WITH CLASSIC LATIN! NO ALTERNATIVES!
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <salixdavianus@terra.es>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:18:51 +0200

>>It's always good to learn another language, even if it is theoretically 'dead;' it can only increase your brain power. But that's my own contention on that.<<

Actually in the world around 3 or 10 millions of people are able to express themselves in Latin.
This situes Latin in the top 100 of the world Languages (in fact we have 6500 languges for a population or around 7000 millions of human beings!)

Cl. Salix Davianus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:36:13 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Pan144@aol.com
Date : 21 August 2002 03:05:16
Not that I'm anybody special, but I must admit feeling totally disappointed
>that not one person---not one---has responded to anything I had to say about
>upgrading Latin, how languages naturally evolve, and the clarification
>between Classical and Vulgar Latin as which to choose for upgrading. I

Salue et saluete cives omnes:
But Latin has upgraded already! And at least three times. First there is the upgrade into modern Romance dialects. Then there is the early form of those dialects still written as Latin but pronounced with its own rules varying from place to place but by the educated as Latin as well as by the commoners as proto-Romance often with Habere combining with the verb infinitive to form a new future. Then there is Latin 'restored' by Charlemagne with soft C and G and V=V and unclassical forms such as esse+gerund as a continuous present, esse+present participle as a periphrastic future (ought to be the other way round really) an reflected in Carmina Burana. Then there is Church Vulgar Latin as per Vulgate. All these blend into each other. I am personally interested in following through what is known about British Latin to see how it might have differed from Norman/Picardian/Belgian French. For instance, it retained V=W and C=K because Celtic does.
Classical was only a short-lived ideal of the literati, as might be Shakespearian/King James Bible or the Times of Victoria's day.
However, like the old BBC English, it forms a 'reference language' from which all may deviate but not too far while remaining Latin. I favour Classical pronunciation but allowing unclassical forms as long as they are grammatical. Just so, the English future uses 'shall/will', the French, 'Habere' much compacted but both in practice use 'Is going to', 'Venir faire'.
Unlike Latin, Sanskrit was analysed and defined rigorously early on and the last definition belongs to one Panini c. 425AUC/330 BCE. All Classical Sanskrit thereafter followed his rules, though unlike Latin the great period of literature was some thousand years later. Nobody would consider Giraldus Cambriensis superior to Vergil! Even so, while strictly obedient to the rules, this language is nothing he would have imagined. (It resembles telegram English with long compound words and most verbs replaced by passive participles).
I see no reason not to treat Latin similarly. As long as it does not violate Classical rules, why not use forms Romans might have thought unusual, maybe Greek influenced, but grammatical? Latin is exceptionally bad at past statements - Caesar's page upon page of Abl.Abs. - but then these are not common in speech. Vergil's "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" is not just about Greeks but reflects a simpler Greek (and Celtic!) way of using a participle for certain sentences of outcome which are cumbersome in Latin. Forms like 'celera mente' instead of celeriter were in spoken use. Why not use these and others? They are not 'wrong', do not violate any rules.
Latin was a *living* language. It is when it stopped developing that it became a dead one. That is what death is: cessation of development. Sanskrit was /learnt/ language but it never stopped developing, therefore could not be called dead until relatively recently.

Misum a Vibio Ambrosio Caesariense



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:43:20 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Amanda Bowen <reason_prevails@hotmail.com>
Date : 21 August 2002 03:43:54
>
>
>
>ps - when someone recreates the Latinesque jargon of the legions, I'll
>hasten to learn that, as well.
>
"The King's English was French" - Bill Bryson, 'Made in America' (about US English).
The aristocracy's Latin was Greek. We do know that Au was commonly pronounced as modern English early on because Vespasian was teased about saying Plostra for Plaustra and 150 years before, we have young reprobate P.Claudius Pulcher changing his name to Clodius on adoption into a Plebeian gens. Ae => E seems to be early too. Assuming that they wrote phonetically, for they had no reason not to, Ae is an uncomfortable dipthong that sounds transitional from the Ai Plautus would have written and a little too 'refaened' for fast speech. Plautus would have put a D on his O-stem Ablatives too!


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:48:35 -0400

Salve,

<Ab Manu Audente> If you provide
an opinion that the others on this list disagree with, rest assured that
you will hear probably more than you ever wished to hear about your post
(Grin!!!!!!).<end>

This is a proven fact! I know; just go through the archives back a few
weeks, and you'll see a heated discussion on certain topics that I dare not
bring up again, for fear of a second arousal of the political fire I was
playing with in it, which has since died, or at least moved into closed
chambers. So if you don't get a response back, it can be a good thing. It
may mean that you've just made a peaceful statement that you don't get an
argument over. And that's usually good!

Optime Vale, Quod "Si Vales Valeo"

Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus
--
Scriba Curatoris Aranei
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Vivo!"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] re: Nomen Meum
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:56:24 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : gkbagne <gkbagne@hotmail.com>
Date : 21 August 2002 10:28:03

>didn't know. Traditionaly my third name should be Dua or Minora but
>I noticed that historical men often had nicknames in this position so
>I assume this was a custom for women as well. As a child my nickname
>within the family was Bunny. “Little rabbit“ wasn't very euphonius
>in Latin, but “little hare“ sounds right to me!

Salve salveteque omnes.
Cunicula. Hmm.
I chose my gens because of its patron deities and their connection with a part of England I lived in some years ago, about the only part I like, particularly the baths and extensive ruins about 30 feet under Aquae Sulis/Bath. The cognomen comes from my home island of Jersey being in Roman times one of the many Caesareas. Julius Caesar may have got round there some time but there seems to be no pre-imperial name on record. France is visible from Jersey but not vice-versa.
Vibius has no particular reason: I don't like most praenomina and the names I do like were nomina, not praenomina.
Certainly by the 2nd Imperial century, the Praenomen had fallen into disuse and cognomina functioned as a personal name. Men like Constantine and his successors are Flavius Constantinius and so on, their praenomina as good as lost. (Descendents of the post-JC Flavians?). Most gentes only allowed two or three praenomina - eg all Julius Caesars are either Gaius or Lucius - and many just one. Some appear to have been used only by specific gentes (gentibus?).
I wonder if there could be magical reasons for the paucity of personal names? Yet they did not keep them secret.
Misa a Vibio Ambrosio Caesariense



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:02:10 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Pan144@aol.com
Date : 21 August 2002 15:29:31
Subject : Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
>add that everyone should understand that the so-called “Classical Latin“ was
>NOT the language used in everyday speech by Romans. It was a very stylized
>version, and Romans would have given double-takes if they'd heard others

Salve,
Something simliiar must exist in Greece between Kathereuousa and Demotike. Perhaps at a later time even more similar to Qur'anic, pan-Arabic and local mutually incomprehensible languages. Very like in fact, since it is the classical language of religion and learning that holds them together as 'Arabic' just as there was 'Romance' until Latin pronunciation was restored and freed the romances up to be written phonetically. Charlemagne restored Vulgar Latin pronunciation and the first French document is a treaty dividing his empire between his sons, c.830 CE.
Epistola misa a Vibio Ambrosio Caesariense


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Popular Latin
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:20:50 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Claudius Salix Davianus" <salixdavianus@t...>
wrote:
> Salvete cives,
>
> >>For me, I find the conjugation of nouns a royal pain in the you
know
> where! Happily Spanish and French dropped that over 500 years ago
from what
> I read. Still, I wish to
> master noun conjugations because all Eastern European languages,
> German, Romanian, Greek and Arabic all have noun conjugations.<<
>
> CASES IN LATE LATIN
> In later Latin the five declensions were reduced to three because
fourth
> declension (u-stems) were confussed with second (o-stems), and fifth
> declension (e-stems) with first (a-stems). In addition around 3th
century
> due partially to phonetic changes accusative and ablative become
equivalent
> in some environments. Later we see dative used instead of genitive
(due to
> equivalency of some examples of dative and genitive). This leave a
sistem of
> 3 cases:
> a) Nominative-Vocative
> b) Accusative-Ablative
> c) Genitive-Dative
>
> In Old French, Old Provenzal and some dialects of Nothern Italy a
system of
> two cases based (on Nom.-Voc and Acc.-Abl.) were preserved until
nineth or
> tenth century. In modern Romanian still survive a system of two
cases.
> Hispanic Latin probably lost cases around 7th century (before the
appareance
> of the first texts in Old Spanish).
>
> In Greek we also found in byzantine Greek around 12th centuries
almost
> confusion complete confusion of dative and genitive (in
fact "dative" case
> in ancient Greek is a kind of dative-ablative case). The system of
modern
> greek is now:
> a) Nominative
> b) Accusative
> c) Genitive-Dative-Ablative
> [And uses as romanic languages extensively prepositons of case
marking]
>
> SLAVIC AND GERMAN
> Nowadays possess cases but the system is much reduced that the
systems we
> find in ancient germanic dialects of the Roman Times or the
language known
> as Old Slavonic (9th century). In fact, most eastern IE language
present
> evidences that the cases will undergo probably the same fate that
the cases
> of Latin
>
> ARABIC
> Modern arabic has lost the case markings, only Classical Arabic (the
> language of Qur'an has case endigns, but already in a erosioned
form).
>
> Cl. Salix Davianus
> =====================
> Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae

Salve Tribune Diviane,

Thanks for that update and correction. Looks like I had the right
idea but my timing for French and Spanish dropping the cases was off
= - 600 years. Gracias por la informacion que nos ha mandado. Esto me
ha hecho muy feliz. Voy a poner esta informacion en mi archivo.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Disappointment
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:43:44 -0000

> you will hear probably more than you ever wished to hear about your
post
> (Grin!!!!!!).
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Just to add to this, it is sometimes fun to get a lot of critizism
and flak from people. Tribune Divianus nicely just showed me that my
timing was off on when changes had and are occurring to noun
declensions in the European languages. I respect his background and
authority on these subjects so now I feel more enlightened.

On the last sentence of Senator Audens, my approach is a little
different. I have always been a fan of the great but decadent Irish
playwrite Oscar Wilde who said, " The only thing more horrifying than
being talked about (negatively critized etc) is not being talked
about at all!" as I mentioned on another posting.

Valete bene

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Beseen closing down
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:28:45 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,
I'm afraid I have some bad news, Beseen.com who has
provided our chat and message boards will be shutting
down on Monday 26 August 2002.

http://www.beseen.com/

Does anyone have any ideas about alternative services
to replace Beseen?


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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