Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ideas
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:09:29 -0700 (PDT)

--- "Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus"
<postumius@gmx.net> wrote:
> Pro. Postumius Nero L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.
>
> Salve,
>
> Just as a thought: What's the 50th state that
> doesn't allow it? I'm almost certain I could
> organize something like that where I live, but I
> can't officially be a part of it...yet (I'm not yet
> legal to gamble, not that it's ever stopped me
> before). But I'll have to keep this in the thought
> box for when I can get this together.
>
> Optime Vale,
>

Utah


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:10:24 -0300 (ART)

Salve

--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> escreveu:
> Em Seg, 2002-08-26 às 17:39, lafaustus escreveu:
> > Gods Almight!
> >
[..]
> > In what world does we live? If I´m complaining
> that US$ 12 is TOO
> > HIGH for a brazilian, you want to say US$25 for
> someone that almost
> > not participate (Class V)! See the economic news
> of the outside world!

MAIOR: Ah, true. Just a curiosity, there are two
citizens here in Brazil that create an alternative
system; that is, in this year, both pay one tax for
one of then, and next year, both pay for the other; in
two years, both of them "tasted the flavor" of being a
assidui... :)

> The difference is much higher as just the rate
> exchange
> For example: GNI/capita
> USA: US$ 34870
> France: US$ 22690
> Brazil: US$ 3060
[..]

MAIOR: A significant difference. I suggest to create
different levels for every type of country:
A - developed,
B - in development and,
C - undeveloped
Countries of US, European Union, Japan, Australia will
be in A, Latin America and Eastern Europe in B, and
most of Africa in C; the tax for type A can be USD
25,00; B=USD 15,00; C=5,00; and with an extra USD
5,00, you can be promoted in one class (from Classis
IV to V, for example).

> Vale
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior
Tribunus Plebis
Propraetor Brasiliae

_______________________________________________________________________
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O super editor para criação de sites: é grátis, fácil e rápido.
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:33:29 -0400

Pro. Postumius Nero L. Sicinio Druso Propraetori S.P.D.

Salve,

I like the idea and the principle behind it, but this would, sadly, leave me down in the Fifth Class for perhaps the next eighty years, should the gods permit me to live that long.

Optime Vale,

Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus
--
Scriba Curatoris Aranei
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Vivo!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:36:18 -0400

Pro. Postumius Nero Q. Lanio Paulino S.P.D.

Salve,

You bring up a good point that again I haven't though of. It is a matter of setting your priorities, but some don't put NR as a priority at all. Again, just a thought.

Optime Vale,

Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus
--
Scriba Curatoris Aranei
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Vivo!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:58 -0400

Salve Feste,

I think your idea should also be added to the thought pot, but perhaps I started a conversation that has gotten too long for me to maintain. Anyway, the regional tax is perhaps a better idea because it stays respective to how much the average citizen in any given region may make. For instance, an American may make (and this is just a statement for the sake of argument, though this isn't an argument) say... three times as much as an Argentine citizen. So that would be murder on the Argentine but not even a pin prick to the American. So as far as I would be concerned, the regional tax rate idea would be the fairest of the proposed so far, but I have more reading to do.

Vale,

Postumius Nero


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] COSTS, TAXES
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:16:27 -0000

Salvete omnes,

When I thought of the 25.00 tax I had the impression that the
majority of Nova Romans are from North America and Western Europe and
most people who would be involved in Nova Roma would not be poorest
of the poor, especially if they have their own computers and access
this site. I sure the tax system could be adjusted as suggested to
give less fortunate people a chance and not let them be left out of
our nation. Also anyone of us (especially me working in the volatile
oil industry) could lose their jobs at any time and so therefore, as
long as they privately emailed the NR government of their situation,
adjustments could be made. I do agree respectfully with Senator
Audens point but his valid point reminded me of another situation
that similarily effects the same people who are not in the North
American economy. For example merchandise at NR, books, videos, and
the books that are necessary for some of our courses are 30 - 40,
somtimes even 50 - 60 US dollars each including taxes and shipping.
This situation would also exclude some of those people he indicated
from furthering their education in NR. Perhaps someday we could find
some way of subsidizing these materials if we implemented the 25.00
for North America.

PS - As a point of interest our Canadian dollar = .63 US + .15 TO
EXCHANGE so I have to pay 1.48 - 1.51 Canadian for each US dollar. My
membership would therefore be 37.50 Canadian. The minimum wages here
are 6.00 - 7.50 /hr Canadian. A school teacher makes 31,000
beginning - 60,000 after 10 years. Income tax after 49,000 is 40% and
50-60% after 100,000 Cnd or 55,000 US. We cannot deduct many types of
loans and especially our mortages. Anyway my point is that even in
Canada we pay more for everything (other than health care)than our
neighbours to the South and things based on the US dollar get
costlier all the time. Still I'll would pay the 25.00 US. Dosen't
break me but my US friends are getting off more lightly. Could we try
and get a similar breakdown from other provinces of Nova Roma. It
will be very interesting; besides the CIA may be to busy with
overseas problems these days. (grin)

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:01:07 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> IV. If we based it on a province's macronational standard, that
was filled
> with problems. We had no monitoring facilities, no way to keep
track of
> world markets that fluctuated. We gave that up as unworkable.
Still it is
> the best way.

Not really unworkable, would just require some time. Rather than
watching the money markets and trying to guess which way the Euro is
going to move against the dollar a better method would be to
establish a baseline based upon a nation's GNI per capita, which
doesn't see the wild (except in rare instances) fluctuations that the
money markets can be prone to seeing.

Since Nova Roma's banking is in America, one tends to assume that the
tax would be in US$. For simplicities sake let's just call the base
line tax at US$20.00. According to the World Bank (a slightly less
controversial source than the CIA) the baseline GNI per capita in the
US for 2000 was $34,260. Argentina's GNI per capita in 2000 was US$
7,470. To figure the tax 7470/34290 = 21.8%. Thus civis in the
Argentina province would have an assessed tax of US$4.36. For
multinational provinces such as Thule the average GNI per capita of
the nations within the provinces could be used. The only draw back
is that under this system most non-Americans would be paying less in
US$ for taxes than Americans.

The World Bank web site is at:
http://www.worldbank.org/data/countrydata/countrydata.html

It would take a couple of hours and a spreadsheet to plug the numbers
into but would be more workable than trying to out guess the money
market and more geared to real affordability than a flat rate tax.
In my work I deal with international customs and exchange rates all
the time an I know what a headache the exchange rates can be.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:08:53 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:

> When doing these computations, please factor in the expenses of
actually
> paying the taxes, i.e. forwarding the funds. These are, for me,
about
> $15 annually, and I'd guesstimate they're about the same elsewhere
in
> the world.
>

An excellent point, and one that is going to come up whether a
graduated tax system or a flat tax rate is used. May I suggest that
for provinces outside of the US that the taxes be gathered centrally
within provinces and forwarded (minus the transfer costs)to the
central treasury? It is usually less expensive to internationally
transfer one large sum than several smaller sums. Of course this
requires that the Senate choose provincial governors with high
scruples, some extra paperwork, and some oversight to make sure that
the numbers add up. Forgive me, I suggesting a real governmental
style beaucracy. <grin>

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: COSTS, TAXES
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:16:48 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> PS - As a point of interest our Canadian dollar = .63 US + .15 TO
> EXCHANGE so I have to pay 1.48 - 1.51 Canadian for each US dollar.
My
> membership would therefore be 37.50 Canadian. The minimum wages
here

Please take a look at my modest proposal in msg 1922 Re: Ideas -
taxes http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/1922 Under the
system I propose Canada would be taxed at 61.4%, thus a with a
US$25.00 baseline tax the Canadian assessment would be US$15.35 or
about $22.75 Canadian. Like I said in my message the bad part is
most non-US Nova Romans would be paying less than US Nova Romans.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	26 Aug 2002 23:20:06 -0300

Em Seg, 2002-08-26 às 16:54, Paul Kershaw escreveu:
> Salvete,
>
> The exchange rate complaint is a valid one, though. In some areas, indeed, US$10 is
an unreasonably high amount; for me, it's a pittance. Is it fair to break the
financial backs of some citizens just because they live in a country which is
significantly less well-to-do than the US? In contrast, though, if a "per country or "per region" tax were instituted, would it be fair to charge someone $25
rather than $5 simply because they lived in a richer country?

You must compare this to your income not the absolute value. I don't
exactly what this represents for you, but let say it is one meal, why
should others pay 10 meals while you pay only one ?


The truth is, neither solution is wholly fair to everyone, but I would sooner
support a regional tax, sliding from US$5 for the poorer regions to US$25 for
the richer ones (either that, or an honor-system percentage tax of 0.1% of annual
pre-tax income -- which would make my household's tax well over US$25).

And mine to US$13.0 (University full professor of the largest Un. of
South America)

Vale

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 07:40:28 +0000

Avete omnes,

I feel as I have to pick up the public appeal from illustruos L. Arminius
Faustus. I completely agree with him and say that increasing taxes is something
to get NR only for people from rich countries or for wealthy people in other
countries.

I don't understand why one should take some example from his own life and
say that it's like when an association ask just a few $ from you and you
just complain that you can't afford it even if this is not true. I guess
everyone knows his own needs and expenses and the economic reality in his
country. I, luckuly, should afford that tax easily enough but I don't think
this is for all!

And what about spreading the Roman ideals in the whole world? It's just
for some people from some part of the earth? I'm sorry to see that sometime
this ML is very 'americanized' and somebody forgets people abroad....I know,
I know someone should answer "it's normal as most of the ML writers is from
USA". I know, but this is not the point.

respectfully

MARCVS IVLIVS PERVSIANVS

Post Scriptum: far from me to engage a struggle between US and non US citizens
:-)




Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:48:04 -0000
From: "miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Ideas

> more people become comfortable with making the payment. Eighteen
dollars is
> too low.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Q Fabi,

I guess we are dealing with basic human nature. Here many of us are
sitting in front of our 2 - 3000 dollar computers and cannot cough up
an extra 7.00 dollars. This is much like our Mexican Association
where I live. We only asked 20.00 / year for a family membership and
we get compaints and howls of bitter disappointment from members
saying they can't afford it. They then arise quickly with their
1200.00 gold chain necklaces tinkling and go sulking back to their
200,000.00 homes and 10,000.00 entertainment centres and 2 cars. The
younger single members who can't afford 10.00 go off night clubing
looking for girlfriends, boyfriends or husbands and willingly pay
4.00 a drink and 8.00 a pack for smokes. I think its a question of
setting the order of your priorities, interests and dedication. I'll
bet that if I mistakenly advertised a authentic gold auries coin of
Augustus Caesar in NR(worth 10,000 dollars) for 500.00 the vast
majority of us would somehow be able to find even that amount of
money. I just got clobbered for heavy taxes this year and I'm
streched tight. Still, if I could find a full Roman Legionaires
outfit for 200.00, believe me I could find it. I know that the
monitary value of the things I mention has much to do with incentive,
but think a moment about the educational and social benifits one gets
from NR. That is a great value in itself.

Vale bene - Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"gaiuscoriolanus" <jozef.duhacek@siemens.sk>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 07:54:02 -0000

> You must compare this to your income not the absolute value. I don't
> exactly what this represents for you, but let say it is one meal,
why
> should others pay 10 meals while you pay only one ?

Salve,

you are right that it must be compared to income of each citizen but
unfortunately it is not possible to establish such charging in Nova
Roma.

Vale

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] COSTS, TAXES
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 03:05:06 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Omnes,
A Few points,
1. The day Nova Roma starts using my Taxes to
subsidize books, vidieos, or anything else is the day
I become a member of the Head Count. Bread and
Circuses were a constant drain on Roma Antiquita's
resources, and establishing a modern wellfare state
without the power to force people to pay taxes is
doomed to failure. I'll be making that failure occur
sooner by urging citizens to withhold taxes until the
Bread and Circuses are halted. If you want subsidized
anything, start a charity and use those funds not
taxes.

2. The CIA is the best source of statistics on
economics, and thier purchasing parity stastic not
only takes wages into account, but also local prices.
The World Bank and the UN are the other two sources
and these two organizations seem to be compeating for
the tittle of most inept organization on Earth, though
I would give the World Bank the edge, largely due to
holdover policies from when Robert Strange McNamara
ran it. (The Same idiot who did such an incompatant
job of running America's involvement in Viet Nam from
1961 to 1967).

3. Indexing Taxes by the CIA purchasing Power Stat is
allready a major concession. It dosen't take into
account that Nova Romans from the USA tend to be very
average Americans as far as income goes, while the
very fact that a Nova Roman from one of the poorer
nations has a computer puts them well above the
average for thier Macronation.

--- miguelkelly15 <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> When I thought of the 25.00 tax I had the impression
> that the
> majority of Nova Romans are from North America and
> Western Europe and
> most people who would be involved in Nova Roma would
> not be poorest
> of the poor, especially if they have their own
> computers and access
> this site. I sure the tax system could be adjusted
> as suggested to
> give less fortunate people a chance and not let them
> be left out of
> our nation. Also anyone of us (especially me working
> in the volatile
> oil industry) could lose their jobs at any time and
> so therefore, as
> long as they privately emailed the NR government of
> their situation,
> adjustments could be made. I do agree respectfully
> with Senator
> Audens point but his valid point reminded me of
> another situation
> that similarily effects the same people who are not
> in the North
> American economy. For example merchandise at NR,
> books, videos, and
> the books that are necessary for some of our courses
> are 30 - 40,
> somtimes even 50 - 60 US dollars each including
> taxes and shipping.
> This situation would also exclude some of those
> people he indicated
> from furthering their education in NR. Perhaps
> someday we could find
> some way of subsidizing these materials if we
> implemented the 25.00
> for North America.
>
> PS - As a point of interest our Canadian dollar =
> .63 US + .15 TO
> EXCHANGE so I have to pay 1.48 - 1.51 Canadian for
> each US dollar. My
> membership would therefore be 37.50 Canadian. The
> minimum wages here
> are 6.00 - 7.50 /hr Canadian. A school teacher makes
> 31,000
> beginning - 60,000 after 10 years. Income tax after
> 49,000 is 40% and
> 50-60% after 100,000 Cnd or 55,000 US. We cannot
> deduct many types of
> loans and especially our mortages. Anyway my point
> is that even in
> Canada we pay more for everything (other than health
> care)than our
> neighbours to the South and things based on the US
> dollar get
> costlier all the time. Still I'll would pay the
> 25.00 US. Dosen't
> break me but my US friends are getting off more
> lightly. Could we try
> and get a similar breakdown from other provinces of
> Nova Roma. It
> will be very interesting; besides the CIA may be to
> busy with
> overseas problems these days. (grin)
>
> Yours respectfully,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:12:27 -0400

Pro. Postumius Nero M. Arminio Maiori S.P.D.

Salve,

I like this idea, as I do some of the others. But being that I'm not a Senator (though I'm working on it), and not permitted to vote, I don't have much room to talk on the matter.

Optime Vale,

Pro. Postumius Nero


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:23:17 -0400

Pro. Postumius Nero Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

After reading the 'proposal' of Q. Cassius, I will be taking the liberty tonight of gathering the GNI per capita from the World Bank and coming up with a workable spreadsheet of percentages and a baseline tax rate (I'll probably use $20.00 USD for this) for every listed country to propose to any Senator for discussion in the Senate if deliberation may be allowed given whatever time they may have concerning this tax rate conversation. I honestly think this will work, but we'll find out.

Optime Valete Amici,

Pro. Postumius Nero


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointment
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:27:29 -0400

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 02:48:35PM -0400, Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus wrote:

Salve,

> <Ab Manu Audente> If you provide
> an opinion that the others on this list disagree with, rest assured that
> you will hear probably more than you ever wished to hear about your post
> (Grin!!!!!!).<end>
>
> This is a proven fact! I know; just go through the archives back a few
> weeks, and you'll see a heated discussion on certain topics that I dare not
> bring up again, for fear of a second arousal of the political fire I was
> playing with in it, which has since died, or at least moved into closed
> chambers. So if you don't get a response back, it can be a good thing. It
> may mean that you've just made a peaceful statement that you don't get an
> argument over. And that's usually good!

>From my (Very Very Large) quote file:

"The fastest way to get a question answered correctly on Usenet is to
post the wrong answer."

<grin>


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magna vis veritatis quae facile se per se ipsa defendat.
Great is the power of truth that can easily defend itself with its own force.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 00:36:40 -0400

On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 07:28:18PM -0000, lafaustus wrote:

Salve, L. Arminius Faustus -

> Please, I am not complaining to anyone, but I must comment!
>
> Quirites! What are we hearing?! In the name of Penia, the Poverty,
> the goddess that spread her infausti influence over the whole world,
> the sole Empress of our unfair civilization! US$ 12 is too low???
> Only in the USA! Put the awful exchange rates on it and it will be
> killing for all others countries, specially on the Third World! US$12
> is R$36 for me, my bill of the market for three weeks! Who would pay
> more to afford a cultural non-profit organization?
>
> US$ 12 is too much! We must fight to LOWER the tax rate of Nova Roma,
> the main cause of capite censi citizens, our MAJOR problem...
>
> Remember the exchange rates...

I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic computer
(CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k; I _know_ that there's
not very much profit built into that, either, meaning that the cost
isn't going to vary much (except maybe _upward_) in other places. From
what you're saying, then, the cost of a _basic_ computer where you live
is around 5 *YEARS* worth of groceries... is that correct? This means
that two top-end PCs would buy you groceries for your entire *life*.

I contend that your numbers are somewhat skewed (the "cost of living"
web page for Brazil certainly implies it), _and_ that US$12 is a trivial
amount to a person who can afford a computer.


(Please note that nowhere have I expressed my opinion on the fairness of
the tax burden; here, I'm speaking only of the economic factors which I
believe to be misrepresented.)


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Illi robur et aes triplex circa pectus erat, qui fragilem truci commisit pelago
ratem primus.
As hard as oak and three times bronze was the heart of him who first committed a
fragile vessel to the keeping of wild waves.
-- Horace, "Carmina"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Arches
From:	"Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:16:29 +0000

Avete,

after a list of mine I wrote here some months ago about amphitheaters in
the world, I made a new list about arches.
The list is comprehensive of all Roman arches with a complete vault, not
the ones with only a part as a columns (i.e. Arch of August in Spoleto,
Italy) or only basement ( as Arch of Tiberius in the Roman Forum).
In the list are not included gates to the city which will be treated separately.
Once again, it will be a pleasure for me to have news about other arches
I have not included in this list yet or, of course, any other info.

Ancona Traian
Aosta Augustus
Athens Hadrian
Barà Traian
Benevento Traian
Bosra "Bab al Kandil"
Canosa Porta Varrone
Carsulae Traian
Ephesus Teodosius
Fano Augustus
Leptis Magna Septtimius Severus
Orange
Palmyra
Patara Mettius Modestus
Pola Sergius
Pompei Drusus
Pompei Tiberius or Germanicus
Pompei Caligola
Rimini Augustus
Rome Constantine
Rome Septimius Severus
Rome Titus
Rome Gianus
Rome Drusus
Rome Fornix Fabianus, Q Fabius Allobrogicus
Saintes Germanicus
Spoleto Drusus and Germanicus
St.Remy
Susa Augustus
Tebessa Caracalla
Timgad Traian
Trieste Riccardus
Tripoli Marcus Aurelius
Verona "dei Gavi"
Volubilis Caracalla
Xantos Vespasian

Valete



Marcus Iulius Perusianus
-------------------------
Scriba ad historia Provinciae Italiae
http://italia.novaroma.org
http://www.geocities.com/milko_anselmi/Roma/georom.htm
-------------------------
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:58:06 +0200

Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic computer
> (CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k; I _know_ that there's
> not very much profit built into that, either, meaning that the cost
> isn't going to vary much (except maybe _upward_) in other places. From
> what you're saying, then, the cost of a _basic_ computer where you live
> is around 5 *YEARS* worth of groceries... is that correct? This means
> that two top-end PCs would buy you groceries for your entire *life*.

Salve, Cai Minuci Scaevola.

Just a quickie on hardware costs in Sweden, just as an example:

A brand new top-end computer here would cost less than $2000. This would
be a VERY good computer, with a large monitor and other expensive
peripherals.

A brand new basic model computer would cost about $1000, as you stated.
This would include a monitor and needed peripherals, as well as a few
extras. It'd be quite usable for graphic-heavy games.

A brand new cheap-as-they-come computer would cost perhaps $600. No
extras here, just what's needed to use it, like monitor, mouse and
keyboard.

A used computer, three-four years old, would cost perhaps $400. This
would include all that's needed and a few extra peripherals. It's still
be as good as or better than the cheap-as-they-come new model for
gaming, i.e. it could use most new games.

A used computer, for graphical internet browsing and no gaming, would
come at $200. I assembled one of these for my sister when she got her
new apartment, it cost me less than $50 total using old parts and
favors.

A used computer, for e-mail only and using an alternate OS (i.e. Linux)
wouldn't have to cost more than $100.

I'm pretty sure used alternatives are available elsewhere in the world
as well, so don't assume anyone's spent $1000 on a computer when they
can be found cheaper.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:29:37 -0000

Salve Omnes,

My computer costs in Canada when I mentioned 2 - 3000 dollars would
be 1250 - 1600 US dollars. New Laptops are double that price. True
that you can get used computers for 200.00 etc but they are
incredibly slow by todays standards.

Don't forget also that in countries like Latin America, India, Asia
there is a small % of the population (still adds in the millions)that
have a much higher standard of living than your average middle to
upper middle class North American. Often they are the ones that can
afford an excellent education, buy state of the art computers,
frequently travel abroad. Those people, if we had them could
certainly afford the 25.00 US or in reality just 7.00 more than now.
As was said before the tax is voluntary anyway.

Quintus




--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> > I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic
computer
> > (CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k; I _know_ that
there's
> > not very much profit built into that, either, meaning that the
cost
> > isn't going to vary much (except maybe _upward_) in other places.
From
> > what you're saying, then, the cost of a _basic_ computer where
you live
> > is around 5 *YEARS* worth of groceries... is that correct? This
means
> > that two top-end PCs would buy you groceries for your entire
*life*.
>
> Salve, Cai Minuci Scaevola.
>
> Just a quickie on hardware costs in Sweden, just as an example:
>
> A brand new top-end computer here would cost less than $2000. This
would
> be a VERY good computer, with a large monitor and other expensive
> peripherals.
>
> A brand new basic model computer would cost about $1000, as you
stated.
> This would include a monitor and needed peripherals, as well as a
few
> extras. It'd be quite usable for graphic-heavy games.
>
> A brand new cheap-as-they-come computer would cost perhaps $600. No
> extras here, just what's needed to use it, like monitor, mouse and
> keyboard.
>
> A used computer, three-four years old, would cost perhaps $400. This
> would include all that's needed and a few extra peripherals. It's
still
> be as good as or better than the cheap-as-they-come new model for
> gaming, i.e. it could use most new games.
>
> A used computer, for graphical internet browsing and no gaming,
would
> come at $200. I assembled one of these for my sister when she got
her
> new apartment, it cost me less than $50 total using old parts and
> favors.
>
> A used computer, for e-mail only and using an alternate OS (i.e.
Linux)
> wouldn't have to cost more than $100.
>
> I'm pretty sure used alternatives are available elsewhere in the
world
> as well, so don't assume anyone's spent $1000 on a computer when
they
> can be found cheaper.
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Taxes, my final adress
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lucius=20Arminius=20Faustus?= <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:54:33 -0300 (ART)

Salvete, quirites,

I´m very pleased what I´ve heard from yesterday until today about taxes. I´m very happy that the Senate and Tribunes are concerned on that subject.

I have no doubt that the future of Nova Roma is to grow on assidui citizens, from all world, and taxes misadjusted could be really a great delayer of growing. Really, the real money you invest in NR is your time and dedication. And each one know how the own time costs...



Vale bene in pacem deorum,



L. Arminius Faustus

Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.

Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



Se de ócio estou, divirto-me escrevendo,

Entre os defeitos meus, este enumero...

Satira Quarta, Horácio


---------------------------------
Yahoo! PageBuilder - O super editor para criação de sites: é grátis, fácil e rápido.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:37:17 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...> wrote:
> Avete omnes,
>
>
> I don't understand why one should take some example from his own
life and
> say that it's like when an association ask just a few $ from you
and you
> just complain that you can't afford it even if this is not true. I
guess
> everyone knows his own needs and expenses and the economic reality
in his
> country. I, luckuly, should afford that tax easily enough but I
don't think
> this is for all!
>
> Salve Marce,
With respect, this is not some example from just somone's life. We
have to face the reality that any institution, charities, government,
Elks, Freemasons, Shriners, churches, research, and Nova Roma costs
money to run, even if they are non profit. I'll eliminate governments
which charge way too much taxes in my opinion, but I would wager that
all the other institutions I mention would back up what I said. Their
people frequently have pointed this problem out. My point of view is
certainly not unique.

Vale bene,

Quintus

>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:48:04 -0000
> From: "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...>
> Subject: Re: Ideas
>
> > more people become comfortable with making the payment. Eighteen
> dollars is
> > too low.
> >
> > Valete
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Salve Q Fabi,
>
> I guess we are dealing with basic human nature. Here many of us are
> sitting in front of our 2 - 3000 dollar computers and cannot cough
up
> an extra 7.00 dollars. This is much like our Mexican Association
> where I live. We only asked 20.00 / year for a family membership and
> we get compaints and howls of bitter disappointment from members
> saying they can't afford it. They then arise quickly with their
> 1200.00 gold chain necklaces tinkling and go sulking back to their
> 200,000.00 homes and 10,000.00 entertainment centres and 2 cars. The
> younger single members who can't afford 10.00 go off night clubing
> looking for girlfriends, boyfriends or husbands and willingly pay
> 4.00 a drink and 8.00 a pack for smokes. I think its a question of
> setting the order of your priorities, interests and dedication. I'll
> bet that if I mistakenly advertised a authentic gold auries coin of
> Augustus Caesar in NR(worth 10,000 dollars) for 500.00 the vast
> majority of us would somehow be able to find even that amount of
> money. I just got clobbered for heavy taxes this year and I'm
> streched tight. Still, if I could find a full Roman Legionaires
> outfit for 200.00, believe me I could find it. I know that the
> monitary value of the things I mention has much to do with
incentive,
> but think a moment about the educational and social benifits one
gets
> from NR. That is a great value in itself.
>
> Vale bene - Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"gaiuscoriolanus" <jozef.duhacek@siemens.sk>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:42:55 -0000

Salve Caii Minucii,

this comparison is a bit funny untill you haven't live in such
country. I do not want complain to NR taxation now I just want to
show one example. PC (but not the hotest news)cost about 1000 USD
here (when I'm taking into account latest exchange rate USD to Slovak
Crown). Average wage here is a bit lesser than $90 so with avarage
salary you have to save your money for one year and you can proudly
buy new PC. Unfortunately you can not afford to eat and your landlord
should better forget that you will pay some rent for whole year.

I know this is just an example but believe me that this numbers are
corect and there are countries where $12 means more then three
meals at McDonalds. I catch your point that person who can afford to
buy computer can afford to pay tax, but this is not always true. Not
each man who has email box and uses to browse web pages has got own
computer at home and $12 can make prety good storm in wallet.

So I'll greet any proposal to make taxation more fair. Not because
myself, I (thanks to God)can spend $12 to tax but there are cives
which can not.


Ave atque Vale.

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus







> I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic
computer
> (CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k; I _know_ that
there's
> not very much profit built into that, either, meaning that the cost
> isn't going to vary much (except maybe _upward_) in other places.
From
> what you're saying, then, the cost of a _basic_ computer where you
live
> is around 5 *YEARS* worth of groceries... is that correct? This
means
> that two top-end PCs would buy you groceries for your entire *life*.
>
> I contend that your numbers are somewhat skewed (the "cost of
living"
> web page for Brazil certainly implies it), _and_ that US$12 is a
trivial
> amount to a person who can afford a computer.
>
>
> (Please note that nowhere have I expressed my opinion on the
fairness of
> the tax burden; here, I'm speaking only of the economic factors
which I
> believe to be misrepresented.)
>
>
> Vale,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-
> Illi robur et aes triplex circa pectus erat, qui fragilem truci
commisit pelago
> ratem primus.
> As hard as oak and three times bronze was the heart of him who
first committed a
> fragile vessel to the keeping of wild waves.
> -- Horace, "Carmina"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:26:59 -0400

Salve Caius Minucius Scaevola,

"I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic computer
(CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k"

If you buy new, and the latest equipment. You can find clearances outfits that sell complete, new packages that are two years out of date for US$400 or so; you can buy complete used systems for even less. Part of the cost is also labor; if you buy the parts and put them together yourself, you can shave $100-$200 off the price.

I'm not sure if the implication was that L. Faustus does indeed have more money than alleged, but if so, unless you know something that I don't, I don't think that's a fair implication.

-- Festus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:32:02 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete,

Here are some numbers from the CIA World Factbook:
(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/)

per capita GDP as $1000 USD (purchasing power parity)

Brazil 6.5
Poland 8.5
Slovakia 10.2
Argentina 12.9
Portugal 15.8
Spain 18.0
Italy 22.1
Sweden 22.2
UK 22.8
Germany 23.4
France 24.4
Canada 24.8
Belgium 25.3
Norway 27.7
Switzerland 28.6
USA 36.2

One simple plan would be to set the yearly membership fee at 1/2000th
of the paying citizen's country's per capita GDP (one half of the
amounts shown above). Thus, the payment would be $3.25 in Brazil,
$11.40 in the UK, $18.10 in the USA.

If the propraetores will accept and hold the payments of their
countrymen, then international banking fees would not be necessary
except when the propraetor transmits half of the collected payments
to the Senate, incurring a single transfer charge which he could
deduct.

Valete, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:04:49 -0400

On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:58:06PM +0200, Kristoffer From wrote:

Salve,

> Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> > I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic computer
> > (CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k; I _know_ that there's
> > not very much profit built into that, either, meaning that the cost
> > isn't going to vary much (except maybe _upward_) in other places. From
> > what you're saying, then, the cost of a _basic_ computer where you live
> > is around 5 *YEARS* worth of groceries... is that correct? This means
> > that two top-end PCs would buy you groceries for your entire *life*.
>
> Salve, Cai Minuci Scaevola.
>
> Just a quickie on hardware costs in Sweden, just as an example:
>
> A brand new top-end computer here would cost less than $2000. This would
> be a VERY good computer, with a large monitor and other expensive
> peripherals.

This is one of the two categories that's different for the US, but
in my opinion that's only because we can get the absolutely latest,
hot-off-the-assembly-line hardware. Going with absolutely bleeding-edge
stuff, you can have a machine that costs overe $3k, and a laptop that's
over $5k.

> A brand new basic model computer would cost about $1000, as you stated.
> This would include a monitor and needed peripherals, as well as a few
> extras. It'd be quite usable for graphic-heavy games.
>
> A brand new cheap-as-they-come computer would cost perhaps $600. No
> extras here, just what's needed to use it, like monitor, mouse and
> keyboard.
>
> A used computer, three-four years old, would cost perhaps $400. This
> would include all that's needed and a few extra peripherals. It's still
> be as good as or better than the cheap-as-they-come new model for
> gaming, i.e. it could use most new games.
>
> A used computer, for graphical internet browsing and no gaming, would
> come at $200. I assembled one of these for my sister when she got her
> new apartment, it cost me less than $50 total using old parts and
> favors.
>
> A used computer, for e-mail only and using an alternate OS (i.e. Linux)
> wouldn't have to cost more than $100.

<shrug> For that matter, you could pick up a discarded 386, put FreeDOS
and the Crynwar TCP/IP stack on it, and have it cost you $0. What point
are you trying to make?

> I'm pretty sure used alternatives are available elsewhere in the world
> as well, so don't assume anyone's spent $1000 on a computer when they
> can be found cheaper.

Neither should you assume that everyone has spent no more than $100, or
that everyone is capable of building their own, or is aware of the
alternatives, or runs Linux. The $1000 scenario is far, far more likely
than the $100 one. In the US, you can pick up an old Chevrolet Nova or
equivalent for about $300 - it would get you where you're going just as
well as a new car - but for some reason, I don't see too many of those
on the street. I've travelled widely, and everywhere else in the world
the same seems to hold true: people don't own the cheapest thing that
they can but what they can afford based on their financial
circumstances. Citing limit cases, whether $0 or $3500, is fairly
useless for the purposes such as this discussion; I maintain that the
*average* computer is about $1000 (or the equivalent given the exchange
rate) wherever you go.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nam et ipsa scientia potestas es.
Knowledge is power.
-- Sir Francis Bacon

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:46:09 -0400

On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:42:55PM -0000, gaiuscoriolanus wrote:

Salve Gaii Marce,

> I know this is just an example but believe me that this numbers are
> corect and there are countries where $12 means more then three
> meals at McDonalds. I catch your point that person who can afford to
> buy computer can afford to pay tax, but this is not always true.

I never said it was; my point is that it's going to be true far more
often than not. In the original post, the implication was that the
writer had a choice between paying the NR tax or eating for a week... I
would say that anyone in _that_ tight a set of financial circumstances
should certainly sell their computer; NR membership is not a necessity
for survival, whereas food is. A statement like that carries many
implications beyond "US$12 buys more here than it does in the US"
(something with which I fully agree, by the way.)

I believe that, yes, the tax rate should be adapted to the various
macronational economic situations. I do not believe that the average NR
cive - who a) owns a computer and b) has the leisure time to put toward
what is essentially a hobby - would find it truly difficult to come up
with US$12, no matter where they live. That's just too much of a stretch
for me. Yes, there are going to be exceptional circumstances, but the
point is that they *are* exceptions rather than the norm.

> So I'll greet any proposal to make taxation more fair. Not because
> myself, I (thanks to God)can spend $12 to tax but there are cives
> which can not.

The "can not" is the part which I find difficult to believe. I agree
with the fact that a fixed amount is inequitable; I disagree that it's
impossible.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat.
All of them wound, the last one kills.
-- In reference to the hours; old inscription found on clocks

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:27:42 -0400

On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 09:26:59AM -0400, Paul Kershaw wrote:

Salve,

> "I must say, you've got my curiosity involved. A fairly basic computer
> (CPU, monitor, etc.) in the US costs about $1k"
>
> If you buy new, and the latest equipment.

Clearly, you're unfamiliar with computer prices. I said "fairly basic";
I meant "fairly basic". "New" and "latest" is in the $2000+ range.

www.cnet.com
www.buy.com
www.dell.com

etc.

> You can find clearances
> outfits that sell complete, new packages that are two years out of
> date for US$400 or so; you can buy complete used systems for even
> less. Part of the cost is also labor; if you buy the parts and put
> them together yourself, you can shave $100-$200 off the price.

I'm an electronics engineer, a computer consultant, and build systems
for myself and my friends; the last thing I need is to be lectured on
what can be "shaved off". What is your quarrel with the average that I
stated? I emphasize the word *average*; please see www.webster.com if
you're uncertain of the definition.

I find your quibbling annoying, pointless, and irrelevant.

> I'm not sure if the implication was that L. Faustus does indeed have
> more money than alleged, but if so, unless you know something that I
> don't, I don't think that's a fair implication.

If you read my entire statement carefully, you'll find that no such
implication exists. My contention is that a person who can afford a
computer and the leisure time to pursue a hobby will not usually find
US$12 a hardship; I said nothing about L. Faustus' private finances.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing crumbles.
-- Sallust, "Jugurtha"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	27 Aug 2002 16:55:40 -0300

On Tue, 2002-08-27 at 12:46, Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 01:42:55PM -0000, gaiuscoriolanus wrote:
>
> Salve Gaii Marce,
>
> > I know this is just an example but believe me that this numbers are
> > corect and there are countries where $12 means more then three
> > meals at McDonalds. I catch your point that person who can afford to
> > buy computer can afford to pay tax, but this is not always true.
>
> I never said it was; my point is that it's going to be true far more
> often than not. In the original post, the implication was that the
> writer had a choice between paying the NR tax or eating for a week... I
> would say that anyone in _that_ tight a set of financial circumstances
> should certainly sell their computer; NR membership is not a necessity
> for survival, whereas food is. A statement like that carries many
> implications beyond "US$12 buys more here than it does in the US"
> (something with which I fully agree, by the way.)
>
> I believe that, yes, the tax rate should be adapted to the various
> macronational economic situations. I do not believe that the average NR
> cive - who a) owns a computer and b) has the leisure time to put toward
> what is essentially a hobby - would find it truly difficult to come up
> with US$12, no matter where they live. That's just too much of a stretch
> for me. Yes, there are going to be exceptional circumstances, but the
> point is that they *are* exceptions rather than the norm.
>

One misconception here: internet access is in no way equivalent to
having a home computer. Most use the computers at work/school for no
cost (during lunch time etc.).

In countries with a smaller number of computers, they are shared, the
number of internet users here is much larger than the total number of
computers and not all computers have internet access, far from that.


Manius Villius Limitanus

> > So I'll greet any proposal to make taxation more fair. Not because
> > myself, I (thanks to God)can spend $12 to tax but there are cives
> > which can not.
>
> The "can not" is the part which I find difficult to believe. I agree
> with the fact that a fixed amount is inequitable; I disagree that it's
> impossible.
>
>
> Vale,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat.
> All of them wound, the last one kills.
> -- In reference to the hours; old inscription found on clocks
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:01:44 -0700

<SNIP>

>
> I believe that, yes, the tax rate should be adapted to the various
> macronational economic situations. I do not believe that the average NR
> cive - who a) owns a computer and b) has the leisure time to put toward
> what is essentially a hobby - would find it truly difficult to come up
> with US$12, no matter where they live. That's just too much of a stretch
> for me. Yes, there are going to be exceptional circumstances, but the
> point is that they *are* exceptions rather than the norm.
>

One misconception here: internet access is in no way equivalent to
having a home computer. Most use the computers at work/school for no
cost (during lunch time etc.).

In countries with a smaller number of computers, they are shared, the
number of internet users here is much larger than the total number of
computers and not all computers have internet access, far from that.

Sulla: You are saying that most as in more than 50% correct? Can you please site your sources that more than 50% of Nova Roman citizens are students who only have use of a computer at work?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"m_iulius" <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:11:17 -0000

Ave Quinte Pauline,

I got your point of view and partially agree. What I did not like is
generalizing, expecting everybody behaving the way you described.
I think we in NR are adults and believable when we say "It's too
much"! It's not the same story we're living in "real" life. I guess
most of Nova Romans are proud to be here and would do some economic
sacrifices to feel being Romans.

:-)

Marcus Iulius Perusianus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve Marce,
> With respect, this is not some example from just somone's life. We
> have to face the reality that any institution, charities,
government,
> Elks, Freemasons, Shriners, churches, research, and Nova Roma costs
> money to run, even if they are non profit. I'll eliminate
governments
> which charge way too much taxes in my opinion, but I would wager
that
> all the other institutions I mention would back up what I said.
Their
> people frequently have pointed this problem out. My point of view
is
> certainly not unique.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Quintus
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:48:04 -0000
> > From: "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...>
> > Subject: Re: Ideas
> >
> > > more people become comfortable with making the payment.
Eighteen
> > dollars is
> > > too low.
> > >
> > > Valete
> > > Q. Fabius Maximus
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > Salve Q Fabi,
> >
> > I guess we are dealing with basic human nature. Here many of us
are
> > sitting in front of our 2 - 3000 dollar computers and cannot
cough
> up
> > an extra 7.00 dollars. This is much like our Mexican Association
> > where I live. We only asked 20.00 / year for a family membership
and
> > we get compaints and howls of bitter disappointment from members
> > saying they can't afford it. They then arise quickly with their
> > 1200.00 gold chain necklaces tinkling and go sulking back to their
> > 200,000.00 homes and 10,000.00 entertainment centres and 2 cars.
The
> > younger single members who can't afford 10.00 go off night clubing
> > looking for girlfriends, boyfriends or husbands and willingly pay
> > 4.00 a drink and 8.00 a pack for smokes. I think its a question of
> > setting the order of your priorities, interests and dedication.
I'll
> > bet that if I mistakenly advertised a authentic gold auries coin
of
> > Augustus Caesar in NR(worth 10,000 dollars) for 500.00 the vast
> > majority of us would somehow be able to find even that amount of
> > money. I just got clobbered for heavy taxes this year and I'm
> > streched tight. Still, if I could find a full Roman Legionaires
> > outfit for 200.00, believe me I could find it. I know that the
> > monitary value of the things I mention has much to do with
> incentive,
> > but think a moment about the educational and social benifits one
> gets
> > from NR. That is a great value in itself.
> >
> > Vale bene - Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	27 Aug 2002 17:17:06 -0300

On Tue, 2002-08-27 at 17:01, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> <SNIP>
>
> >
> > I believe that, yes, the tax rate should be adapted to the various
> > macronational economic situations. I do not believe that the average NR
> > cive - who a) owns a computer and b) has the leisure time to put toward
> > what is essentially a hobby - would find it truly difficult to come up
> > with US$12, no matter where they live. That's just too much of a stretch
> > for me. Yes, there are going to be exceptional circumstances, but the
> > point is that they *are* exceptions rather than the norm.
> >
>
> One misconception here: internet access is in no way equivalent to
> having a home computer. Most use the computers at work/school for no
> cost (during lunch time etc.).
>
> In countries with a smaller number of computers, they are shared, the
> number of internet users here is much larger than the total number of
> computers and not all computers have internet access, far from that.
>
> Sulla: You are saying that most as in more than 50% correct? Can you please site your sources that more than 50% of Nova Roman citizens are students who only have use of a computer at work?
>

I don't know about NR citizens.

I was speaking of brazilian access to internet, and not specifically
about students. Even the clean-persons have access e-mails and access to
the internet on "corporative" computers.

For example here in the Chemical Institute of the USP, all employes (not
only the professors/researchers) have access to computer, many of them
earn some US$100/month and have no computer at home. The same is true
for some farmaceutical corporation I collabore with.

Salve,

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:17:57 -0400

In different posts, Caius Minucius Scaevola, you wrote:
"For that matter, you could pick up a discarded 386, put FreeDOS
and the Crynwar TCP/IP stack on it, and have it cost you $0. What point
are you trying to make?" and
"In the original post, the implication was that the
writer had a choice between paying the NR tax or eating for a week... I
would say that anyone in _that_ tight a set of financial circumstances
should certainly sell their computer."

You may wish to go back and re-read the point of this thread. You're making numerous suggestions that are irrelevant to the original point. The original point was this:

"People in countries such as Brazil, where income is significantly lower than it is here in the United States, find $15/year to be much more of a financial hardship than Americans do. For this reason, NR should consider a sliding-scale tax base, such as one where people in poorer countries can receive membership for $5/year, while American may have to pay $25/year for the same level of acknowledgement."

This is why, when you began talking about computer prices, the response was (basically), "Well, yeah, but not everybody has a new computer." For that matter, many *Americans* who have a presence on-line don't own a computer: Some of them live in houses with others who do, especially college-age adults, while others use public libraries. Your thread about the price of computers is only tangential to the issue.

I agree with you if your point is that people who own brand-new computers have little call, anywhere in the world, in complaining about US$25/year. I just don't think that all the people who *are* complaining about US$25/year, in this thread, have brand-spanking-new computers.

-- Festus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:33:55 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
>
>
>A used computer, for e-mail only and using an alternate OS (i.e. Linux)
>wouldn't have to cost more than $100.
>
Salve,
You would find it hard to get a machine more than a couple of years old with the disk capacity to run Linux, even in the unlikely event of trying to use it without graphics. I have acquired, for pottering about development purposses, a 486-based machine for €60. This only has 200MB hard disk. Linux won't look at less than 600, 850 with graphics. Even if you don't want half of its facilities, parts of it do so you get them anyway or it won't run. If you wanted on the cheap, I suppose DOS with or without Windows 3 or 95 would be the best.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:58:42 +0200

me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> You would find it hard to get a machine more than a
> couple of years old with the disk capacity to run Linux,
> even in the unlikely event of trying to use it without
> graphics. I have acquired, for pottering about development
> purposses, a 486-based machine for ?60. This only has
> 200MB hard disk. Linux won't look at less than 600, 850
> with graphics. Even if you don't want half of its
> facilities, parts of it do so you get them anyway or it
> won't run. If you wanted on the cheap, I suppose DOS
> with or without Windows 3 or 95 would be the best.

Salve, Vibi Ambrosi Caesariensis.

See, this would be correct for a user just going with the new, hot,
graphical, self-installing distro and selecting something like "full
install". A fully operational version of Linux (including mail reader
and text-based web browser) doesn't need more space than two
floppies(Total 2.88MB). Here's a link to a linux version called
"minilinux" developed by two friends of mine:

http://www.acc.umu.se/~fredrik3/download/miniLinux-0.3/

You need the "base.img" and the "boot.img". Really, you only need the
boot-image, but the base file contains some useful applications. These
two files are copied onto discs (not directly, use some diskwriting
program like dd) and the system started...this "distro" can of course be
installed on the hard disk, if so desired.

The main reason that I didn't suggest a Micro$oft product is that their
licence costs doesn't go well with an extremely low-priced solution. :)

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:10:07 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "m_iulius" <m_iulius@v...> wrote:

Thank you Marce for your response,

I know generalizing is the first fallacy taught in logic 100. I did
not mean that all Nova Romans have these attitudes at all. Even 100
souls out of 1400 is "many" in my opinion. Its just that when I first
brought up the topic of a slightly higher taxes a few of our
citizens, one in government that were here long before me explained
that there had been a lot of opposition saying it was too much to
have a fee of 20.OO or more US. He certainly did not indicate 100% of
Nova Romans but even if it was 10% or less it was still significant
opposition to obviously influenence the NR government not to
implement a 20.00+ tax or membership fee. As I mentioned earlier I
have seen these problems in many other organizations; all it takes is
a smaller % to have these attitudes saying we cannot afford it when
they can. If they do not want to contribute when they really could
then it is unfair to make the other majority contribute; things then
begin to fall apart economically. I'll leave that to the senate as to
what areas should pay what.

Still I thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I do not like
hastey generalizations either. In future I will double check my
postings and make sure my writing style does not convey the wrong
idea. I highly respect Nova Roma and its citizens, their input, work
dedication and ingenuity. I know the majority would make economic
sacrifices to be real Romans as you suggest.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus


Ave Quinte Pauline,
>
> I got your point of view and partially agree. What I did not like
is
> generalizing, expecting everybody behaving the way you described.
> I think we in NR are adults and believable when we say "It's too
> much"! It's not the same story we're living in "real" life. I guess
> most of Nova Romans are proud to be here and would do some economic
> sacrifices to feel being Romans.
>
> :-)
>
> Marcus Iulius Perusianus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > > Salve Marce,
> > With respect, this is not some example from just somone's life.
We
> > have to face the reality that any institution, charities,
> government,
> > Elks, Freemasons, Shriners, churches, research, and Nova Roma
costs
> > money to run, even if they are non profit. I'll eliminate
> governments
> > which charge way too much taxes in my opinion, but I would wager
> that
> > all the other institutions I mention would back up what I said.
> Their
> > people frequently have pointed this problem out. My point of view
> is
> > certainly not unique.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> >
> > Quintus
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:48:04 -0000
> > > From: "miguelkelly15" <mjk@d...>
> > > Subject: Re: Ideas
> > >
> > > > more people become comfortable with making the payment.
> Eighteen
> > > dollars is
> > > > too low.
> > > >
> > > > Valete
> > > > Q. Fabius Maximus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > Salve Q Fabi,
> > >
> > > I guess we are dealing with basic human nature. Here many of us
> are
> > > sitting in front of our 2 - 3000 dollar computers and cannot
> cough
> > up
> > > an extra 7.00 dollars. This is much like our Mexican Association
> > > where I live. We only asked 20.00 / year for a family
membership
> and
> > > we get compaints and howls of bitter disappointment from members
> > > saying they can't afford it. They then arise quickly with their
> > > 1200.00 gold chain necklaces tinkling and go sulking back to
their
> > > 200,000.00 homes and 10,000.00 entertainment centres and 2
cars.
> The
> > > younger single members who can't afford 10.00 go off night
clubing
> > > looking for girlfriends, boyfriends or husbands and willingly
pay
> > > 4.00 a drink and 8.00 a pack for smokes. I think its a question
of
> > > setting the order of your priorities, interests and dedication.
> I'll
> > > bet that if I mistakenly advertised a authentic gold auries
coin
> of
> > > Augustus Caesar in NR(worth 10,000 dollars) for 500.00 the vast
> > > majority of us would somehow be able to find even that amount of
> > > money. I just got clobbered for heavy taxes this year and I'm
> > > streched tight. Still, if I could find a full Roman Legionaires
> > > outfit for 200.00, believe me I could find it. I know that the
> > > monitary value of the things I mention has much to do with
> > incentive,
> > > but think a moment about the educational and social benifits
one
> > gets
> > > from NR. That is a great value in itself.
> > >
> > > Vale bene - Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Taxes
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:10:42 -0400

Pro. Postumius Nero Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

As I had promised, I have put the data I have gathered from the World Bank into a nice spreadsheet which is available to anyone and everyone at my office (http://www.angelfire.com/empire/picturesofthepast (click on "Taxation" in the right frame). Again let me restate that this is not my personal proposal, I'm just working on other people's ideas.

Bene Valete,

Pro. Postumius Nero


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Taxes: My Two Sestertii
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:43:51 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I have been following the thread of sharing taxation ideas, and I
must say, many good ideas have been presented.

I do however, remember how long and hard a task it was to assign a
figure of $12.00 U.S. per annum for the entire republic...two years
of discussion and debate. And how much work it was for this year's
Quaestor's to implement the program.

Our success is just budding, but the system worked.

Although it would be nice to see an increase within the next few
years, I honestly do not think we should push it.

Let us allow ourselves a year or two to accustom ourselves to putting
this $12.00 amount aside for Nova Roma. As we get used to paying
this amount, it will be easier to contend with an increase.

I think sticking with the current system and rate, plus or minus a
few administrative 'bugs', will ensure, over the long term a greater
compliance rate with taxation.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Praetor

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Ideas - taxes
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:12:48 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 27 August 2002 21:58:42
>
>
>You need the “base.img“ and the “boot.img“. Really, you only need the
>boot-image, but the base file contains some useful applications. These
>two files are copied onto discs (not directly, use some diskwriting
>program like dd) and the system started...this “distro“ can of course be
>installed on the hard disk, if so desired.
>
Trouble is you can't do anything with that! You'd need a browser and all the support to go into it even if it's only Lynx.

>The main reason that I didn't suggest a Micro$oft product is that their
>licence costs doesn't go well with an extremely low-priced solution. :)
>
I'd forgotten about little things like actually /paying/ for software. I guess not everybody works with computers and people who have them with a touch of dishonesty - at least when it comes to Mr. Gates.
I don't like Windows but I don't care for raw command line either: men-based options would go down nicely!
Vale, Vib. Ambrosius Caesariensis.

"If I am not for myself, who will be? But if I am only for myself, what am I?" - The Rabbi Hillel



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes
From:	"miguelkelly15" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:17:56 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus"
<postumius@g...> wrote:
> Pro. Postumius Nero Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>Salve Pro. Postumi Nero,

That # 7 suggestion I gave about a lottery and wager betting on my
survival time in the streets grows more lucerative hour by hour!
Right now I feel like I'm in a similar situation as the poor Senator
in the reign of Caligula. Remember that when Caligula was deathly ill
one of the Senators postured and said, "Oh gods of Rome! Allow our
emperor to recover! I offer my life in place of his! Well to the
senator's misfortune Caligula recovered from his encephalites or
malaria but was hopelessly insane. The first thing he said
was "Remember your promise to the gods! Well do get on with it!" Well
I said nothing to you about not be able to protect myself from the
mob! Could you suggest any tough gladiators from Sodalistas or the
reenactment groups I could hire for body gaurds? Good luck with all
the fund raising efforts and I am sure something will be worked out
for everyone soon.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Taxes
From:	"Pro. Postumius Nero Drusus Sepulchratus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:43:47 -0400

Salve Lani Pauline,

I wish I knew a good legionary I could hire for a bodyguard myself. But unfortunately I don't. Just remember like I do, don't enter the Senate-house without a few bodyguards and some armor!

Optime Vale Amice,

Proculus Postumius Nero


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]