Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Judicial structures (was: Roman judicial guidelines)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:19:47 +0100 (BST)

Q. Fabius Maximus wrote:

> I had foreseen three courts. First the Senate for impeachment, a court
> composed of peers, and finally a Comitia, the assembly of Centuries for
> appeals.
> Problems in the constitution made this impossible, but I have composed the
> frame work, and once the constitution is amended we can get on with the rest.

This is interesting. What are the constitutional obstructions? I don't yet know it backwards, so I can't think off the top of my head...

Also, on the matter of 'the Senate for impeachment': I can see that your framework is not intended to be thoroughly historical, as you've replaced the confusing system of separate courts and hearings before magistrates with a simple trial-by-jury system, which I can readily understand and support. But why the Senate for impeachment? Presumably you mean by this that the Senate would hear cases of official misconduct by magistrates and other servants of the state. If this is so, it strikes me that one could raise three objections:

First, the historical procedure for such cases, as I understand it, was for a tribune to bring charges against the accused before one of the assemblies. This seems perfectly reasonable, and presumably if one alternative is much like another it is best to opt for the historical one.

Second, (and I don't wish to say that this would occur in the Senate we currently have, but one must always guard against the possibility) a hearing conducted exclusively by Senators might tend to be lenient towards a fellow-Senator. The Romans had this problem with the standing courts, of course, which was why the juries were changed back and forth between Senators and equites.

Third, and this is a perhaps less important objection, the use of the Senate as a court to try cases of treason (which is often linked to, though more serious than, official misconduct) was an innovation of the principate, and allowed the emperor more easily and subtly to sway the opinion of the jury than if the case were heard by an assembly. Of course there is no emperor here, but an influential senator might do the same if his or her views were known (an important aspect of trial-by-jury is that the jury don't know the defendant or one another), and in any case republican practice is surely preferable to imperial.

I don't want to appear to be attacking a system whose details I haven't seen or considered, of course, I merely air these thoughts in the hope of hearing your reasoning.

One further question, if I may: what would be the role of the Praetors in this system? Would it (a pure guess) be to set guidelines for sentencing and to regulate the workings and procedures of the other courts? Or would it be (another function they had in the republic) to conduct preliminary hearings for both criminal and civil cases to determine whether there was a case to answer, before allowing it to proceed to a court?

I look forward to hearing the thinking behind your system: if you'd rather take it off-list or request that I stop asking impertinent questions, feel free!

Jamie

www.strategikon.org

---------------------------------
Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Genuis
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:43:35 -0000

---Salvete Flavius et Omnes:

Indeed I can assist:

Please visit www.novaroma.org and visit the Album Gentium section.
Those gentes with their own webpages will have them displayed on
their respective pages.

A few civities have webpages of their own too.

Happy surfing,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@y..., "Lawrence D. Freeman" <larrythebear@a...> wrote:
> Salvete!!
> Can anyone tell me about how to login to the different Gens'
> webpages. I've heard that the different families have sites of
their
> own. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
> Avete!!!
> Laurenicus Flavius Magus.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:20:56 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:

>> With respect I doubt if you can blame the decline and fall of Rome
on
> the religious forces. The Pagan Republic fell on its own 90 years
> before Christianity even started.

I quite agree with you that there were far more than just religious
forces involved in the Fall of Rome. But I am a very religion-angled
person; I see the Great Gods as being patrons and protectors of all
peoples and governments that give them the proper respect and who
exercise the proper virtue. The fall of the republic was due to a
similar kind of human greed as would later reveal itself in the form
of christianity; and they both greeds stink alike to the Gods and to
the wise humans who can recognize true virtue.

To me, as to the venerable Julian, I see the Traditional Pagan
Religion as the rightful and natural religion of mankind- when I say
mankind, I meant to speak of all peoples who embraced (or still
embrace) the true, original religion of their forefathers and
mothers, dating back on the vast and ancient tree of natural time and
changes, in some form, to the foundations of one's own people.

By holding as holy the pagan religion, as a member of Nova Roma's
Religio, or as a member of any other pagan reconstructionist or
revivalist spiritual organization, one is accepting millenia of
wisdom and tradition, and showing a great respect for the ancestors.

By rejecting the ancestors' Gods and ideas regarding cosmology,
especially in favor of a tiny foreign cult that was hostile to the
Gods and the pagan theologies from it's first day, one is in effect
saying that the ancestors were wrong; they were decieved; they were
ignorant of the "true" state of the universe and its powers- and what
person can do such a thing? What person of honor can be so sure that
they know better than thousands of generations of wise ancestors?
What kind of irrational, prideful person could be so disrespectful?

Compared to the short amount of time that monotheism has been a world
power, the traditional pagan religion pre-dates the Old Testament by
thousands of years.

I can assure you that the ancestors were not ignorant of the inner
workings of creation; the Gods are real; there is not just one God
named Jehova who controls the destinies of all things. There is not
just one religion that is proper or "right", contrasted with scores
that are demonic imitations or deceits, or simple manifestations of
ignorance.

In the sudden and shockingly violent change to a renegade form of
hebraic monotheism, made possible by political power and force, and
the unfortunate stations of power achieved by malcontents and ego-
maniacs, we see a very unnatural, harmful development of the
spiritual destines of our people, and many other peoples.

To me, and those who understand the words of Venerable Julian, and
who listen with open hearts to the shades of the wise ancestors and
the words of the Gods who still watch over this darkened world,
Rome's spiritual subjugation by christianity was a sign that greed
and pride had finally and truly won, and it is no suprise that
destruction and dissolution followed in it's stead. It is no suprise
that Dark Ages followed; but for all that, those of us who have re-
entered into fellowship with our blessed ancestors and the rightful
Gods of our people and our hearts have found a peace and a vision
that has no comparison; the dream that was can and will live again.

Regards,

Taurinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:36:33 -0000

Salve G. Taurini,

Thank you for your interesting and informative response regarding the
pagan religion of Rome. I appreciate your time and thought in
anwering my point. I would acknowledge that Judeo - Christianity
actually or naturally evolved from the more older religions that had
many gods.

One of the main problems with Christianity is that it has never been
properly tried. Sadly like other religions it was partially shagnhied
by evil and greedy people. According to the teacher of Christianity
we are supposed to love our enemies because anyone can love people
who love them. The only great compliment I remember Jesus giving was
the one to a Roman soldier (a pagan) who asked him to cure his
servant.He later said if the towns and cities do not accept the word
just kick the dust off your sandels and move to the next town.
Nothing was ever said about destroying, robbing or burning people who
chose not to follow his word. Also my name is Quintus, not Jesus or
God so I have no right to say you are all wrong and will be condemned
if you do not wish to follow monotheism. Sometimes if I warn a person
about following something I consider wrong my approach is always a
word of caution, no more - sort of like telling you that there is a
bad blizzard heading toward the Sierra Nevada and maybe it would not
be a great idea to drive from Colorado to California for the next few
days. If he goes there he may have a bad accident; then again maybe
not. I am to still treat you like a brother and respect you anyway.
Besides, no Ancient Gods have ever appeared to me, neither Jesus,
Mohammed or Marian apparitions. We all base our beliefs on more or
less blind faith in realms that are not at all material and visible.
Therefore, never being sure in a scientific - like sense, one should
try hard to respect everyone's belief and I for one had no problem to
swear to uphold the right of the Religio Romano as well as study it
here. I am sure many pagans would do the same for me. States in
modern times which abolished all organized religions have a rather
nasty track record of how they treated their people as well. Atheism
has no better solutions for sure.

By the way, Constantine who legalized Christianity after the civil
war with his rival, formed and politicized the Catholic church in his
Edict of Milan, did not even convert to Christianity or baptism until
near death.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_valerius_taurinus"
<g_valerius_taurinus@y...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
>
> >> With respect I doubt if you can blame the decline and fall of
Rome
> on
> > the religious forces. The Pagan Republic fell on its own 90 years
> > before Christianity even started.
>
>
>
> I quite agree with you that there were far more than just religious
> forces involved in the Fall of Rome. But I am a very religion-
angled
> person; I see the Great Gods as being patrons and protectors of all
> peoples and governments that give them the proper respect and who
> exercise the proper virtue. The fall of the republic was due to a
> similar kind of human greed as would later reveal itself in the
form
> of christianity; and they both greeds stink alike to the Gods and
to
> the wise humans who can recognize true virtue.
>
>
> To me, as to the venerable Julian, I see the Traditional Pagan
> Religion as the rightful and natural religion of mankind- when I
say
> mankind, I meant to speak of all peoples who embraced (or still
> embrace) the true, original religion of their forefathers and
> mothers, dating back on the vast and ancient tree of natural time
and
> changes, in some form, to the foundations of one's own people.
>
>
> By holding as holy the pagan religion, as a member of Nova Roma's
> Religio, or as a member of any other pagan reconstructionist or
> revivalist spiritual organization, one is accepting millenia of
> wisdom and tradition, and showing a great respect for the
ancestors.
>
>
> By rejecting the ancestors' Gods and ideas regarding cosmology,
> especially in favor of a tiny foreign cult that was hostile to the
> Gods and the pagan theologies from it's first day, one is in effect
> saying that the ancestors were wrong; they were decieved; they were
> ignorant of the "true" state of the universe and its powers- and
what
> person can do such a thing? What person of honor can be so sure
that
> they know better than thousands of generations of wise ancestors?
> What kind of irrational, prideful person could be so disrespectful?
>
>
> Compared to the short amount of time that monotheism has been a
world
> power, the traditional pagan religion pre-dates the Old Testament
by
> thousands of years.
>
>
> I can assure you that the ancestors were not ignorant of the inner
> workings of creation; the Gods are real; there is not just one God
> named Jehova who controls the destinies of all things. There is not
> just one religion that is proper or "right", contrasted with scores
> that are demonic imitations or deceits, or simple manifestations of
> ignorance.
>
>
> In the sudden and shockingly violent change to a renegade form of
> hebraic monotheism, made possible by political power and force, and
> the unfortunate stations of power achieved by malcontents and ego-
> maniacs, we see a very unnatural, harmful development of the
> spiritual destines of our people, and many other peoples.
>
>
> To me, and those who understand the words of Venerable Julian, and
> who listen with open hearts to the shades of the wise ancestors and
> the words of the Gods who still watch over this darkened world,
> Rome's spiritual subjugation by christianity was a sign that greed
> and pride had finally and truly won, and it is no suprise that
> destruction and dissolution followed in it's stead. It is no
suprise
> that Dark Ages followed; but for all that, those of us who have re-
> entered into fellowship with our blessed ancestors and the rightful
> Gods of our people and our hearts have found a peace and a vision
> that has no comparison; the dream that was can and will live again.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Taurinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:45:18 -0400

Salve Quintus Lanius Paulinus,

I would agree on you with most of your points on how the Roman empire
collapsed,
but I beg to differ with you that the empire was overrun by "pagan
barbarians"
as in the popular imagination. By the time of the late Empire, most of the
so-called
"barbarians" were Christians - albeit of the Arian heresy, and thus they
often
conflicted with the Catholic Romans. Although some tribes came across as
marauders,
like the Vandals, most were actually more like hordes of refugees - the Huns
were
pressing on the German tribes from the East, and displaced Germans begged to
be let
in to the safety of the empire. Many of these people had long ago accepted
Roman culture, and were willing to be assimilated. But when finally
admitted, often
after paying bribes, they were often subjected to discrimination and
exploitation by
the Romans, as were the Goths, and so they understandably rebelled. Also,
many German
tribes - not individual mercenaries, mind you, but entire tribes, were
enlisted as
"foederati" to serve in the Roman army. As the Empire became increasingly
insolvent,
often these foederati were not paid sufficiently or in a timely manner, and
so they
took their payment in land and spoil. These Germans had no object to destroy
the
empire and had no idea that it would one day fall - how could they believe
that
an empire that had ruled the world for a thousand years would not rule it
for
another thousand?

But as you say, epidemics and food shortages probably had a great deal to do
with
the stresses on the Empire. It seems that the very expanse of the Empire and
the
ease of travel and trade its security made possible, allowed plague to
spread from
port to port and to follow the armies, and the economic specialization of
provinces
made the others much more susceptible to crisis when disaster struck one
(something
to keep in mind in today's era of globalization).

Let's be fair to the Germans, who seem to have been mostly people only
seeking a
better life for themselves. It may have been possible that if the Romans had
been
more equitable (the traditional Roman combination of fear, envy, and hatred
towards Germans foreshadows the racism of much later centuries in a more
recent time) to the
Germans, the two peoples may have been able to peacefully merge. But as the
Empire
was already sagging under its own weight, collapse may have been inevitable.
As it was, some of the Ostrogothic Kings of Italy seemed to be genuinely
interested in the
well-being of the state and did much to improve its economic health - which
was all
undone by the devastation wrought by Belisarius in Teodosius' war of
reconquest.

Ti. Ambrosius Silvus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus [mailto:mjk@datanet.ab.ca]
> Sent: Thursday, 24 October, 2002 16:58
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
>
> With respect I doubt if you can blame the decline and fall of Rome on
> the religious forces. The Pagan Republic fell on its own 90 years
> before Christianity even started. The decline of the Roman Empire was
> due to many causes. Some of these causes were: weak emperors both
> Christian and pagan; military weakness (using foreign troops and
> mecenaries rather than their own malitias); internal strife; economic
> depression which resulted in the decline of agriculture,(eg. once
> Egypt and North Africa were conquered it was cheaper to import grain
> than grow it in Italy putting farmers out of business); industry and
> commerce which consequently ruined the middle class, a big decrease
> in the population due to EPIDEMICS, almost constant costly warfare
> and the invaision of the Empire by vigorous Germanic people many of
> whom neither worshiped the gods of Rome or the god of Abraham.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman B&B [Was: Re: Land ]
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:51:20 -0400

I like that idea! A Roman villa resort could be a very good
draw. Also perhaps a "dude ranch" legionary camp - the legions
could maintain a working Roman camp, and guests could take on
various roles to see what it might have been like to live
in the 8th century AUC!

TAS


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman B&B [Was: Re: Land ]
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:49:25 -0000

---Salve Amicus:

You raise a very good point here; once the land is purchased, there
will be much work to do in the line of Romanizing it....and it will
take a commitment of people to stay for a stretch and 'build' the
historical Roman Military Encampments, 'build' the historical
buildings and temples, and the like....unless we want to spend an
astranomical fortune, which, uhh, last time we checked, we don't have.

So, it is not merely a matter of us putting our 'money' where our
dreams lie, it is also a matter of weightedly applying research and
our own 'hands on' talents.

Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@y..., "Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@u...> wrote:
> I like that idea! A Roman villa resort could be a very good
> draw. Also perhaps a "dude ranch" legionary camp - the legions
> could maintain a working Roman camp, and guests could take on
> various roles to see what it might have been like to live
> in the 8th century AUC!
>
> TAS


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Coinage
From:	"M. Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:20:58 +1000

Since several people here in the Australian province have attempted unsuccessfully to obtain NR Secterces coinage, what is the Senate's policy on individual provinces creating their own coinage?

Marcus Flavius Aurelius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
marcus.flavius@bigpond.com
ICQ: 4895187

Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman B&B [Was: Re: Land ]
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:21:51 -0700 (PDT)

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo writes:

>... once the land is purchased, there
> will be much work to do in the line of Romanizing
> it....

I think two separate ideas are getting conflated here.
The "Roman Bed & Breakfast" idea involves places all
over the macronational world which would be owned by
Nova Roman citizens and operated as hostels for both
citizens and non-citizens.

The Land Project envisions the purchase of a chunk
of real estate (108 or more acres), which will then
have a forum and temples built on it.

While I think it'd be a great idea to have lodgings
available for citizens on the 108+ acre site, I also
think that the "Bed & Breakfast" or "Domus Novae
Romae"
or whatever we end up calling them ought to exist in
many places. They should compliment the Land Project,
and not become a substitute for it.

=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Genuis
From:	"Lawrence D. Freeman" <larrythebear@askmamafreeman.com>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:31:56 -0000

Salvete!!
Can anyone tell me about how to login to the different Gens'
webpages. I've heard that the different families have sites of their
own. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
Avete!!!
Laurenicus Flavius Magus.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Judicial structures (was: Roman judicial guidelines)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:35:45 EDT

In a message dated 10/24/02 5:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk writes:

> Presumably you mean by this that the Senate would hear cases of official
> misconduct by magistrates and other servants of the state. If this is so,
> it strikes me that one could raise three objections:

Please do:

>
> First, the historical procedure for such cases, as I understand it, was for
> a tribune to bring charges against the accused before one of the
> assemblies. This seems perfectly reasonable, and presumably if one
> alternative is much like another it is best to opt for the historical one.
>

Well, true, but our Tribunes can only protect our citizens and the spirit of
our constitution from overbearing magistrates. They usually do this by
issuing a veto of the offending lex.

> Second, (and I don't wish to say that this would occur in the Senate we
> currently have, but one must always guard against the possibility) a
> hearing conducted exclusively by Senators might tend to be lenient towards
> a fellow-Senator. The Romans had this problem with the standing courts, of
> course, which was why the juries were changed back and forth between
> Senators and equites.
>

Ha!
You don't know our Senate. There is not a chance of any leniency to anyone.
We all take our duties very seriously.
Our Senate is different from old Rome's. You get your seat by merit, not by
wealth, so there is no friendships based on a us or them mentality. There
are cliques in the Senate true, but these are all based on minor
disagreements on how Nova Roma should be administrated, not how we can make
more wealth.

> Third, and this is a perhaps less important objection, the use of the Senate
> as a court to try cases of treason (which is often linked to, though more
> serious than, official misconduct) was an innovation of the principate, and
> allowed the emperor more easily and subtly to sway the opinion of the jury
> than if the case were heard by an assembly. Of course there is no emperor
> here, but an influential senator might do the same if his or her views were
> known (an important aspect of trial-by-jury is that the jury don't know the
> defendant or one another), and in any case republican practice is surely
> preferable to imperial.
>

Any treason case here would be heard by the Senate. Banishment is the only
possible result of a guilty verdict. Then it would be appealed to the
Comitia by right.
This way two courts are involved, and no one gets railroaded.

One further question, if I may: what would be the role of the Praetors in
this
> system? Would it (a pure guess) be to set guidelines for sentencing and to
> regulate the workings and procedures of the other courts? Or would it be
> (another function they had in the republic) to conduct preliminary hearings
> for both criminal and civil cases to determine whether there was a case to
> answer, before allowing it to proceed to a court?
>

The Praetors duties to me are still in flux. I'd like them to oversee
hearings, collect sponsos,
and appoint Iuducies for the summoned Questo. Of course they would still
issue edicts, interperet law and precedent, and write up rulings and
judgements for future Praetors to refer. Our constitution is rather silent
on legal duties for Praetors. The current Praetor Urbanus (Senior Praetor)
and I have been discussing ways to define these more fully.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship / religious oath
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:12:06 -0700

Avete Gaius Basilicatus,

We have one Augur, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus.

If you are interested in apply for an Augury position here is the link to go to:

http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/guidelines.html

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship / religious oath

Do we have any augurs? I want to be an augur. I watch birds all the time.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship / religious oath

Salve Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis ,

< and say ah, I am Christian and I think NR should be adjusted to the post
Constantine era, paganism should be erradicated etc

The fact that Nova Roma honors the Pagan Gods is what attracts many people
to it. Many Nova Romans honor the Roman Pantheon in their macronational life
as well as in their micronational. And there are many many pagans out there.
My macronational Pagan organization alone has 6000 paying members in the
London area (at 20? a head per year). It won't be so easy to get rid of us
:-)

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
(http://www.be.paganfederation.org)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Land Project and French Fries
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:12:36 -0700

Ave,

Can you please post them. This sounds very fascinating.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Land Project and French Fries

Actually, the "Julienne cut" was named for Julian the Apostate, who refused to eat potatoes unless they were deep fried in creamy pork fat. I have references for this.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kershaw
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Land Project and French Fries

Salve Diana:

I'm not sure if you meant this as a joke or picked it up as Urban Folklore somewhere, but according to http://www.belgianfries.com/index.cfm?Module=histor1, the Belgians did invent French fries, but nowhere near as far back as 1302. French fry stands were known in both France and Belgium by the mid-19th C., with the earliest known record of such stands in Belgium (according to the site) giving a date of 1862. Meanwhile, U.S. President Jefferson was known to be fan of French-cut fried potatoes, writing of them as a treat he discovered overseas, in the late 1700s (which suggests a French source of the fries, after all).

They're not called "French fries" because the method of cooking them is from France. The name comes from the style of cutting the potatoes, also called "Julienne." And since the ultimate root of Julienne would be related (in some shape or form) to our erstwhile Caesar, the truth can finally be known:

FRENCH FRIES ARE ROMAN. =) *beg*

Vale,
Festus

[Diana says:]
You haven't lived until you've eaten french fries with Mayonnaise :-) By the
way, they are really Flemish Fries (an invention of Marc Van den Frie in the
year 1302). The French stole the idea and do to a more effective propaganda
machine, convinced the world that Flemish Fries were invented in France by a
man names Pierre D'Patate-frites, thus the misnomer stuck: French Fries. ;-)

So, if the Land Project's location will be based on the tastiest sliced
potatoes deep-fried in oil, it should be in Belgium:-)

Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 03:30:13 -0000

Snip to save space
> Let's be fair to the Germans, who seem to have been mostly people
only
> seeking a
> better life for themselves. It may have been possible that if the
Romans had
> been
> more equitable (the traditional Roman combination of fear, envy,
and hatred
> towards Germans foreshadows the racism of much later centuries in a
more
> recent time) to the
> Germans, the two peoples may have been able to peacefully merge.
But as the
> Empire
> was already sagging under its own weight, collapse may have been
inevitable.
> As it was, some of the Ostrogothic Kings of Italy seemed to be
genuinely
> interested in the
> well-being of the state and did much to improve its economic
health - which
> was all
> undone by the devastation wrought by Belisarius in Teodosius' war of
> reconquest.
>
> Ti. Ambrosius Silvus

Salve Ti. Ambrosi Silve,

Your point is taken about the Germanic people. I should have
elaborated more on them as the issues were complex as you indicate. I
had learned that most of the conversions of the Germanic Kings and
their people had come after the fall of Rome between the 5th and 8th
centuries. Thanks for your interesting response.

Regards - Quintus
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus [mailto:mjk@d...]
> > Sent: Thursday, 24 October, 2002 16:58
> > To: Nova-Roma@y...
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
> >
> > With respect I doubt if you can blame the decline and fall of
Rome on
> > the religious forces. The Pagan Republic fell on its own 90 years
> > before Christianity even started. The decline of the Roman Empire
was
> > due to many causes. Some of these causes were: weak emperors both
> > Christian and pagan; military weakness (using foreign troops and
> > mecenaries rather than their own malitias); internal strife;
economic
> > depression which resulted in the decline of agriculture,(eg. once
> > Egypt and North Africa were conquered it was cheaper to import
grain
> > than grow it in Italy putting farmers out of business); industry
and
> > commerce which consequently ruined the middle class, a big
decrease
> > in the population due to EPIDEMICS, almost constant costly warfare
> > and the invaision of the Empire by vigorous Germanic people many
of
> > whom neither worshiped the gods of Rome or the god of Abraham.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Summons for Jurors. NR MOCK-TRIAL
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:40:55 EDT

The following summons are issued for:
Marcellus Decianus Batavius,
Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura,
Aula Decia Lepella,
Hyapatia Asinia Margali,
Decimus Iunius Silanus,
Marcus Scipio Africanus,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus,
Ti Apollonius Cicatrix
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Marcus Bianchius Antonius,
Marcus Sentius Accipiter
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato,
Maximina Octavia,
M Arminius Maior
S Apollonius Draco

You volunteered last year to act as the Jury in the matter of the Appeal of
Roman citizen
Lucius Marconius Romanus against his sentence of lifelong banishment.
You are directed to subscribe to the following list:
NR_mock_trial-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Further instructions will be sent from there.
Nova Roma thanks you for your service.

Q. Fabius Maximus
Prosecutor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Summons for Jurors. NR MOCK-TRIAL
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:44:25 -0400

Salve, How does one get on the jury list?

Vale, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:42 PM
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Summons for Jurors. NR MOCK-TRIAL

The following summons are issued for:
Marcellus Decianus Batavius,
Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura,
Aula Decia Lepella,
Hyapatia Asinia Margali,
Decimus Iunius Silanus,
Marcus Scipio Africanus,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus,
Ti Apollonius Cicatrix
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Marcus Bianchius Antonius,
Marcus Sentius Accipiter
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato,
Maximina Octavia,
M Arminius Maior
S Apollonius Draco

You volunteered last year to act as the Jury in the matter of the Appeal of
Roman citizen
Lucius Marconius Romanus against his sentence of lifelong banishment.
You are directed to subscribe to the following list:
NR_mock_trial-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Further instructions will be sent from there.
Nova Roma thanks you for your service.

Q. Fabius Maximus
Prosecutor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: THE Forum Romanus
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:51:51 -0400

I agree - now what about the possibility of working with
the citizens of the modern Rome and Italian archaeologists
to do something with the actual Forum Romanus? Could it be
restored in an archaelogically sound manner so that visitors
could experience what it might have been like at the Empire's
height?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus [mailto:equitius_marinus@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 24 October, 2002 22:22
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman B&B [Was: Re: Land ]
>
[snip]...
> I also
> think that the "Bed & Breakfast" or "Domus Novae
> Romae"
> or whatever we end up calling them ought to exist in
> many places. They should compliment the Land Project,
> and not become a substitute for it.
> >
> =====
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On God, the Gods, Constantine, Julian, et al
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:08:44 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

We could search for answers about the fall of Rome, and express our
points of view til we are cyanonic from failure to breathe between
our expressions. Some say it is economics, becoming too large; some
say it is turning one's back on spirituality.

We also have our own perceptions about the divine; many faiths
emminated from Rome, that is the beauty of her. Many cults of
Paganism, Christianities (and I use a plural here too), and the like.

Constantine, for reasons unawares, attempted to usher in a 'new
spirituality' but 'combined' the old with the new, in a sense that
many Pagan traditions are enjoyed and celebrated within the Roman
Catholic Church.

Many of the Gods were Sainted, (St. Briget of the Celts; Hermes was
associated in myth with St. Michael the Archangel) the ideal of
celebacy for priests was actually adopted, we think, not from the
personal expressions of St. Paul, but from the Sol Invictus path.

Does this all matter.......in the sense that we cannot think of
ourselves as fellow citizens and friends? I think not.

Even Jesus, in delivering the sermon on the mount in Gallilee, a port
which entertained people of many spiritual paths from all over the
known world said "Blessed our those who hunger and thirst for
spiritual righteousness (Roman Virtue?) for they shall be
filled".....Did he threaten anyone of any given faith?......no, he
said ....keep searching..... Similar sentiments can be found in
Cicero's "Of the Gods".....and 'Living the Good Life".

And if Jesus wasn't 'meant' to deliver such a pragmatic 'sermon' to
those of many faiths, I would venture to say he would have been stuck
somewhere in Judea...the land of 'nowhere', geographically.

I think Rome fell, for the same reasons some of our countries
experience a 'falling' in comparison to what they previously
enjoyed. Among economic factors that were allowed to 'run amok' I
should think that many Ancient Romans, like many today....stopped
searching in the midst of material and secular preoccupations.

A very interesting post was made during the summer time of this
year,, by one of my gubernatorial colleagues, where he stated that
today's 'traditional family' is really not parallel with the via
Romana, and to some extent that is true...we are more material
minded, less spiritually minded (regardless of who we call "God"),
less amicitia minded. We need to ask ourselves if the flame of Vesta
or the "little light" that shines in other faiths, shines within us.

There came a time in antiquita, as today, in my view, where
priorities were out of sync...they stopped searching for spiritual
truths. The Christians at the time 'had a good thing going', and I
think that Constantine wanted to capture that, in an attempt to
rejuvenate the Empire. I do not for a minute believe that he had a
spiritual vision of the divine through Jesus, otherwise he would have
immediately converted to Christianity....instead, he adopted it near
death.

Was this right? Hey, I am only a mere Praetor :) But for those who
call him a hero, he was innovative. I will give him a few points for
realizing that the spirituality had somehow 'minimized' within this
time during Rome.

I am from a Christian background, as are many of us, Catholic to be
specific, but I am rather pragmatic in my sights that not everyone is
going to view the divine in exactly the same way, but the fact that
they put the search for spiritual truth on top of their priority
list, separates them into a breed of special people.

And this is what I think makes Nova Roma a special place; the search
for spiritual truth, the celebration of whom the ancients viewed
spiritual and their quest for same at a time when they did very well
for themselves, and for the rest of us.

Do the Gods/Goddesses exist? Well, in the grand scheme of things,
how do we say they do not? They are certainly placated in various
ways, aren't they? Is it that we do not understand their roles?
Does God exist, in the sense of the 'top almighty'...? Well in both
Hellenistic Paganism (Chaos) and Judaic/Christian faiths (Yahweh) he
does also, and perhaps we just don't understand his role in the
scheme of things.

In the meantime, we cannot 'prove' a faith...but the sum total of our
collective faith is Roman virtue, and that is something we agree on,
and strive to promote.

In the meantime, we herald, either through worship or respect,
the '12' of the Pantheon, who represented the spiritual quest of
Rome, and Rome seemed to do so well, when the spiritual aspects
mattered.

It is 'people' who are inconsistent, not the divine, regardless of
how you view the divine. And I would venture to say the fall of Rome
was human inconsistency, and not a title we assign to the 'powers
that be'

Just some thoughts,
Pompeia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 03:48:22 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve G. Taurini,
>

Salve Quintus...

> Thank you for your interesting and informative response regarding
the
> pagan religion of Rome. I appreciate your time and thought in
> anwering my point. I would acknowledge that Judeo - Christianity
> actually or naturally evolved from the more older religions that
had
> many gods.

I would respond that christianity did not. Judaism may have; but
christianity comes from no ancient source, only the supposed sayings
and teachings of a semi-historical hellenized jewish man who was
executed in the first century of the common era.

> One of the main problems with Christianity is that it has never
been
> properly tried.

I wonder what you mean by "properly tried". I'd say that 2000 years
is enough time to try something out- and if the supposed "pure and
good" teachings of this doubtful christ are supposedly layered under
the evil manipulations of politics, and they still haven't been
seperated out and actualized in two millenia, chances are, they never
will be.

Teaching people to be kind and generous, respectful and merciful is
nothing new; pagans had similar virtues. Why should they need to put
aside traditional pagan religion and try this new focus on virtue
under the banner of another religion like christianity? A virtuous
person is a virtuous person, regardless of religion; christianity is
not now, nor was it ever a pre-requisite to being a good person.

> Also my name is Quintus, not Jesus or
> God so I have no right to say you are all wrong and will be
condemned
> if you do not wish to follow monotheism.

Congratulations! You have managed to keep a perspective that many
other christians throughout history have been unable to see or
maintain.

> Sometimes if I warn a person
> about following something I consider wrong my approach is always a
> word of caution, no more -

Do you mean that you sometimes "warn" people about Polytheism or
other non-christian religions?

> Besides, no Ancient Gods have ever appeared to me, neither Jesus,
> Mohammed or Marian apparitions. We all base our beliefs on more or
> less blind faith in realms that are not at all material and
visible.

Well, you speak from your experience, and I speak from mine- My Gods
HAVE appeared to me; they have worked in my life; I have felt their
power, and I have a faith based on experience, not a faith based on
hope or non-experience.

> Therefore, never being sure in a scientific - like sense,

Nor does a person need to use the slide-ruler of science for any kind
of certainty- science can explain things, but it cannot find meaning;
and it has no power to find Truth- truth to science is nothing more
than the smallest margin of error. Science is a poor tool by which to
be "sure" of anything by.

My Regards,

Galus Valerius


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:42:48 -0400

You're welcome! Glad to have a good discussion.

Constantine was baptised by an Arian bishop, and Arianism was very popular
in the 4th c. From the official Catholic website ("Homoean" is the Arian
doctrine that Christ the son is different from God the father, that is, they
denied consubstantiation):

>From this moment [The Second General Council, 1134 AUC], Arianism in all its
forms lost its place within the Empire. Its developments among the
barbarians were political rather than doctrinal. Ulphilas (311-388), who
translated the Scriptures into Maeso-Gothic, taught the Goths across the
Danube an Homoean theology; Arian kingdoms arose in Spain, Africa, Italy.
The Gepidae, Heruli, Vandals, Alans, and Lombards received a system which
they were as little capable of understanding as they were of defending, and
the Catholic bishops, the monks, the sword of Clovis, the action of the
Papacy, made an end of it before the eighth century.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

>


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Eureka!...French Fries
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:56:59 -0400

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 02:43:05PM -0700, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo writes:
>
> > It just came to me whilst I was having my afternoon
> > repose.......
> >
> >
> > FRENCH FRIES WITH GARUM........Yum!
>
> Po, I like you. We've become good friends over the
> years. But ... well, I'm just NOT going to join you
> in that adventure.
>
> YKIOK BINMK[1]

And for those among us who get confused by all the 'Net acronyms, a
reference:

http://www.geocities.com/ben-fuzzybear/acronyms.html

If you add a '#' followed by the capitalized acronym onto the end of the
above URL, you'll be taken right to the definition.

http://www.geocities.com/ben-fuzzybear/acronyms.html#YKIOKBINMK

Feel free to send me any additions or corrections you may think of...

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes.
It is foolish to fear what you cannot avoid.
-- Cicero, "De officiis"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On the Emperor Constantine
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:05:45 -0700

Avete Omnes,

A few days ago I posted a brief snippet about Theodosius I who reigned from 379-395 CE. I did so in an effort to correct a misrepresentation that Constantine outlawed Paganism. Today, I have had the time to dig a bit deeper and here is some information I found about Constantine that I think is relevant and will hopefully correct some misrepresentations about this Emperor.

Here is the link that I found this: http://www.roman-emperors.org/conniei.htm

Constantine's Conversion
When Diocletian and Maximian announced their retirement in 305, the problem posed by the Christians was unresolved and the persecution in progress. Upon coming to power Constantine unilaterally ended all persecution in his territories, even providing for restitution. His personal devotions, however, he offered first to Mars and then increasingly to Apollo, reverenced as Sol Invictus.

The next significant event in Constantine's religious development occurred in 312. Lactantius, whom Constantine appointed tutor of his son Crispus [[11]] and who therefore must have been close to the imperial family, reports that during the night before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge Constantine was commanded in a dream to place the sign of Christ on the shields of his soldiers. [[12]] Twenty-five years later Eusebius gives us a far different, more elaborate, and less convincing account in his Life of Constantine. [[13]] When Constantine and his army were on their march toward Rome - neither the time nor the location is specified - they observed in broad daylight a strange phenomenon in the sky: a cross of light and the words "by this sign you will be victor" (hoc signo victor eris or ). During the next night, so Eusebius' account continues, Christ appeared to Constantine and instructed him to place the heavenly sign on the battle standards of his army. The new battle standard became known as the labarum.

Whatever vision Constantine may have experienced, he attributed his victory to the power of "the God of the Christians" and committed himself to the Christian faith from that day on, although his understanding of the Christian faith at this time was quite superficial. It has often been supposed that Constantine's profession of Christianity was a matter of political expediency more than of religious conviction; upon closer examination this view cannot be sustained. Constantine did not receive baptism until shortly before his death (see below). It would be a mistake to interpret this as a lack of sincerity or commitment; in the fourth and fifth centuries Christians often delayed their baptisms until late in life.[[14]]

In February 313, probably, Constantine and Licinius met at Milan. On this occasion Constantine's half-sister Constantia was wed to Licinius. Also on this occasion, the two emperors formulated a common religious policy. Several months later Licinius issued an edict which is commonly but erroneously known as the Edict of Milan. [[15]] Unlike Constantine, Licinius did not commit himself personally to Christianity; even his commitment to toleration eventually gave way to renewed persecution. Constantine's profession of Christianity was not an unmixed blessing to the church. Constantine used the church as an instrument of imperial policy, imposed upon it his imperial ideology, and thus deprived it of much of the independence which it had previously enjoyed.

Please feel free to review his stance with Theodosius's stance on Religion. In case you might not have that link it is included here: http://www.roman-emperors.org/theo1.htm

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_cornelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:08 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] On God, the Gods, Constantine, Julian, et al

Salvete Omnes:

We could search for answers about the fall of Rome, and express our
points of view til we are cyanonic from failure to breathe between
our expressions. Some say it is economics, becoming too large; some
say it is turning one's back on spirituality.

We also have our own perceptions about the divine; many faiths
emminated from Rome, that is the beauty of her. Many cults of
Paganism, Christianities (and I use a plural here too), and the like.

Constantine, for reasons unawares, attempted to usher in a 'new
spirituality' but 'combined' the old with the new, in a sense that
many Pagan traditions are enjoyed and celebrated within the Roman
Catholic Church.

Many of the Gods were Sainted, (St. Briget of the Celts; Hermes was
associated in myth with St. Michael the Archangel) the ideal of
celebacy for priests was actually adopted, we think, not from the
personal expressions of St. Paul, but from the Sol Invictus path.

Does this all matter.......in the sense that we cannot think of
ourselves as fellow citizens and friends? I think not.

Even Jesus, in delivering the sermon on the mount in Gallilee, a port
which entertained people of many spiritual paths from all over the
known world said "Blessed our those who hunger and thirst for
spiritual righteousness (Roman Virtue?) for they shall be
filled".....Did he threaten anyone of any given faith?......no, he
said ....keep searching..... Similar sentiments can be found in
Cicero's "Of the Gods".....and 'Living the Good Life".

And if Jesus wasn't 'meant' to deliver such a pragmatic 'sermon' to
those of many faiths, I would venture to say he would have been stuck
somewhere in Judea...the land of 'nowhere', geographically.

I think Rome fell, for the same reasons some of our countries
experience a 'falling' in comparison to what they previously
enjoyed. Among economic factors that were allowed to 'run amok' I
should think that many Ancient Romans, like many today....stopped
searching in the midst of material and secular preoccupations.

A very interesting post was made during the summer time of this
year,, by one of my gubernatorial colleagues, where he stated that
today's 'traditional family' is really not parallel with the via
Romana, and to some extent that is true...we are more material
minded, less spiritually minded (regardless of who we call "God"),
less amicitia minded. We need to ask ourselves if the flame of Vesta
or the "little light" that shines in other faiths, shines within us.

There came a time in antiquita, as today, in my view, where
priorities were out of sync...they stopped searching for spiritual
truths. The Christians at the time 'had a good thing going', and I
think that Constantine wanted to capture that, in an attempt to
rejuvenate the Empire. I do not for a minute believe that he had a
spiritual vision of the divine through Jesus, otherwise he would have
immediately converted to Christianity....instead, he adopted it near
death.

Was this right? Hey, I am only a mere Praetor :) But for those who
call him a hero, he was innovative. I will give him a few points for
realizing that the spirituality had somehow 'minimized' within this
time during Rome.

I am from a Christian background, as are many of us, Catholic to be
specific, but I am rather pragmatic in my sights that not everyone is
going to view the divine in exactly the same way, but the fact that
they put the search for spiritual truth on top of their priority
list, separates them into a breed of special people.

And this is what I think makes Nova Roma a special place; the search
for spiritual truth, the celebration of whom the ancients viewed
spiritual and their quest for same at a time when they did very well
for themselves, and for the rest of us.

Do the Gods/Goddesses exist? Well, in the grand scheme of things,
how do we say they do not? They are certainly placated in various
ways, aren't they? Is it that we do not understand their roles?
Does God exist, in the sense of the 'top almighty'...? Well in both
Hellenistic Paganism (Chaos) and Judaic/Christian faiths (Yahweh) he
does also, and perhaps we just don't understand his role in the
scheme of things.

In the meantime, we cannot 'prove' a faith...but the sum total of our
collective faith is Roman virtue, and that is something we agree on,
and strive to promote.

In the meantime, we herald, either through worship or respect,
the '12' of the Pantheon, who represented the spiritual quest of
Rome, and Rome seemed to do so well, when the spiritual aspects
mattered.

It is 'people' who are inconsistent, not the divine, regardless of
how you view the divine. And I would venture to say the fall of Rome
was human inconsistency, and not a title we assign to the 'powers
that be'

Just some thoughts,
Pompeia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	"Jozef Duhacek" <jozef.duhacek@siemens.sk>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:25:42 -0000

Salvete

to all things said below my comments I would like to add that there
never were and never will be any scientific proofs that can confirm
or refuse existence of God or Gods.

But the religion is not question of proofs. If it was there would by
no religion in the world. Religion is question of man's inner
standpoint, conviction and faith or belief.

The fact that to be religious man doesn't meant to be good and
virtuos man is as old as oldest religion in the world and it is
useless to talk about it. We all know it but some of us don't want to
accept it.

I guess and that't just my personal opinion that in general it
doesn't matter if you ara pagan or christian or moslim, budhist or
anyone else. Religion should be a basis for a man who think himself:
"I'm not the man I want to be". That should be the prime and major
purpose of any religion. All things around are just way to achieve it.

Of course hearts of men are easily corrupted, and each religion is
strong weapon. We can quickly find a lot of examples form history and
present but we can not judge any philosophy just under the behavior
of people which share it.

Valete

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_valerius_taurinus"
<g_valerius_taurinus@y...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve G. Taurini,
> >

Salve Quintus...
>
>
>
> > Thank you for your interesting and informative response regarding
> the
> > pagan religion of Rome. I appreciate your time and thought in
> > anwering my point. I would acknowledge that Judeo - Christianity
> > actually or naturally evolved from the more older religions that
> had
> > many gods.
>
>
> I would respond that christianity did not. Judaism may have; but
> christianity comes from no ancient source, only the supposed
sayings
> and teachings of a semi-historical hellenized jewish man who was
> executed in the first century of the common era.
>
>
> > One of the main problems with Christianity is that it has never
> been
> > properly tried.
>
>
> I wonder what you mean by "properly tried". I'd say that 2000 years
> is enough time to try something out- and if the supposed "pure and
> good" teachings of this doubtful christ are supposedly layered
under
> the evil manipulations of politics, and they still haven't been
> seperated out and actualized in two millenia, chances are, they
never
> will be.
>
> Teaching people to be kind and generous, respectful and merciful is
> nothing new; pagans had similar virtues. Why should they need to
put
> aside traditional pagan religion and try this new focus on virtue
> under the banner of another religion like christianity? A virtuous
> person is a virtuous person, regardless of religion; christianity
is
> not now, nor was it ever a pre-requisite to being a good person.
>
>
> > Also my name is Quintus, not Jesus or
> > God so I have no right to say you are all wrong and will be
> condemned
> > if you do not wish to follow monotheism.
>
>
>
> Congratulations! You have managed to keep a perspective that many
> other christians throughout history have been unable to see or
> maintain.
>
>
>
> > Sometimes if I warn a person
> > about following something I consider wrong my approach is always
a
> > word of caution, no more -
>
>
> Do you mean that you sometimes "warn" people about Polytheism or
> other non-christian religions?
>
>
> > Besides, no Ancient Gods have ever appeared to me, neither Jesus,
> > Mohammed or Marian apparitions. We all base our beliefs on more
or
> > less blind faith in realms that are not at all material and
> visible.
>
>
> Well, you speak from your experience, and I speak from mine- My
Gods
> HAVE appeared to me; they have worked in my life; I have felt their
> power, and I have a faith based on experience, not a faith based on
> hope or non-experience.
>
>
>
>
> > Therefore, never being sure in a scientific - like sense,
>
>
>
> Nor does a person need to use the slide-ruler of science for any
kind
> of certainty- science can explain things, but it cannot find
meaning;
> and it has no power to find Truth- truth to science is nothing more
> than the smallest margin of error. Science is a poor tool by which
to
> be "sure" of anything by.
>
>
> My Regards,
>
>
> Galus Valerius


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizenship / religious oath
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:09:40 -0700 (PDT)

Hail Nova Roma
I agree with you Paulinus this should be allowed in NR.
Brutis

Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:Salve Diana,

I think a point I made a day or to ago has been taken out of context.
Please read from message 3470. Here is that content pasted from there:

With regards to Religio Romano, I thought about the oath for a while.
It only
asks you to respect and as a magistrate, defend the right of the
religion to
exist. It does not force you to convert and worship the gods. To me
it is more
of a freedom to worship the gods clause that shall not be infringed
upon. In my
opinion the word "honour" means to have respect for the Roman
religion and its
worshipers; not having to worship the gods yourself. If you check the
history
of NR, this oath was brought in to protect the religion against
intolerance and
possibly being wiped out. So if I were to become Proconsul or
dictator some day
and say ah, I am Christian and I think NR should be adjusted to the
post
Constantine era, paganism should be erradicated etc it would be
impossible for
me to do this. Most of our Western governments though Christian also
protect
the rights ot other one god or many gods to exist.

It makes things difficult when only parts of a message are taken and
spread over a dozen emails. No one has any intention of eliminating
paganism, especially from NR.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Scriba Praefecti

AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

PAX ROMANA


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] NEW VENATIONES FOR NOVA ROMA!!!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:20:07 -0700 (PDT)

AVETE OMNES

While you all are invited to continue enjoying the
great Ludi Victoriae, I remind you that from november
4th to 17th we will have the great Ludi Plebei!

However, I am not here to officially present the Ludi,
but rather to announce the beginning of the
subscriptions for the second edition of the Nova Roma
Venationes!!!

For those who are new, the Venationes were the combats
between gladiators and wild animals, and the
Administratio of the Aedilis Plebis Tiberius
Apollonius Cicatrix, together with the Aedilis Plebis
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus organizes them
again, given the success they had during past Ludi
Apollinares.

As usual in ancient Rome during the Ludi Plebei, this
event will take place in the huge Circus Flaminius.

During the Ludi Plebei we will have the fights, but if
you want to join the venationes you have to subscribe
now! Pick your fighter and make him/her battle in the
arena against the beasts!!!

=============================
RULES FOR NEW PARTICIPANTS:
(those who did NOT take part to past edition)
=============================

First of all, you need to subscribe the Venationes
mailing list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venationes

What you have to do is to send there TWO messages:

-1st one: an empty message. Just write in the subject
line "JOIN+your Roman name". (in this way you are
considered as possessing 10,000 Sestertii)

-2nd one: you need to write this message to buy your
venator (fighter) and to introduce him/her into a
Ludus (gladiatorial gymnasium). In the Subject line
write "BUY+name of the fighter+your Roman name", and
in the message write the name of the ludus your
fighter will train in.
You can find the available fighters at
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/boarium.html
and the features of the 4 Ludi within the regulation
at http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/venat-reg.html

While choosing the fighter and his/her Ludus, always
take a look to the prices! You have no more than
10,000 Sestertii!

Also consider that if the name of the fighter you want
appears in another message, it means that he/she has
already been bought! Choose another one!

That is all. In this way you will have your venator
fighting.

Please, note that every citizens can only have one
fighter.

To sum up with an example: should Manius Constantinus
Serapio decide to take part to the venationes he will
act as follows:

1- join the Venationes list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venationes
2- send there an empty message writing in the subject
line "JOIN+Manius Constantinus Serapio"
3- choose a fighter in the website, e.g. Homunculus,
which costs 5,000 Sestertii.
4- choose the Ludus Homunculus will train in, e.g.
Ludus Matutinus, which costs 2,500 Sestertii.
5- send to the venationes list a message writing in
the subject line "BUY+Homunculus+Manius Constantinus
Serapio", and in the message "Ludus Matutinus"

In this way Homunculus will fight for Manius
Constantinus Serapio. Manius still has 2,500 Sestertii
(as at the beginning he had 10,000). Should Homunculus
win against his beats, Manius will be awarded by the
Ludus Matutinus with a certain amount of sestertii.
Just before the following Venationes, Homunculus will
get a certain amount of additionals strength and
resistance points, as he trained in the Ludus.

=============================
RULES FOR PAST PARTICIPANTS
(those who took part to past edition)
=============================

If your fighter is still alive, he will get a certain
amount of strength and resistance points just before
the Venationes, according to the Ludus he was
introduced to.

To have him/her taking part to this edition of the
venationes, you just need to send a message to the
venationes list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venationes) writing in
the subject line "JOIN+name of your fighter", and in
the message the name of the Ludus he/she will train
in.

Should you decide not to make your fighter combat this
time, but you want to introduce him to a Ludus again
in order to increase his strength and resistance for
the following venationes, you just need to send a
message to the venationes list writing in the subject
line "TRAINING+name of your fighter".

If you want to buy a new fighter because the first one
died during past combats, you just need to send a
message to the venationes list writing in the subject
line "BUY+name of the fighter+your Roman name" and in
the message the name of the Ludus he/she will train
in.

However, always check your money...

If you have not enough sestertii to introduce your
fighter to a Ludus, he/she can not take part to the
venationes. You will probably need a gift or a loan...

============================

Subscriptions are open until November 3rd!!!

For any further information take a look to our website
at http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/venat.html

or directly ask me at mcserapio@yahoo.it

In another message we will inform you about the
"financial" situation of the citizens who took part to
past edition.

ENJOY THE VENATIONES!!!

OPTIME VALETE OMNES
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
-----------------------------------
Scriba Aedilis Plebis Cicatricis

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 04:33:24 -0400

Very very well said!

G. Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 10/24/2002 6:20:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com writes:

> give them the proper respect and who
> exercise the proper virtue. The fall of the republic was due to a
> similar kind of human greed as would later reveal itself in the form
> of christianity; and they both greeds stink alike to the Gods and to
> the wise humans who can recognize true virtue.
>
>
> To me, as to the venerable Julian, I see the Traditional Pagan
> Religion as the rightful and natural religion of mankind- when I say
> mankind, I meant to speak of all peoples who embraced (or still
> embrace) the true, original religion of their forefathers and
> mothers, dating back on the vast and ancient tree of natural time and
> changes, in some form, to the foundations of one's own people.
>
>
> By holding as holy the pagan religion, as a member of Nova Roma's
> Religio, or as a member of any other pagan reconstructionist or
> revivalist spiritual organization, one is accepting millenia of
> wisdom and tradition, and showing a great respect for the ancestors.
>
>
> By rejecting the ancestors' Gods and ideas regarding cosmology,
> especially in favor of a tiny foreign cult that was hostile to the
> Gods and the pagan theologies from it's first day, one is in effect
> saying that the ancestors were wrong; they were decieved; they were
> ignorant of the "true" state of the universe and its powers- and what
> person can do such a thing? What person of honor can be so sure that
> they know better than thousands of generations of wise ancestors?
> What kind of irrational, prideful person could be so disrespectful?
>
>
> Compared to the short amount of time that monotheism has been a world
> power, the traditional pagan religion pre-dates the Old Testament by
> thousands of years.
>
>
> I can assure you that the ancestors were not ignorant of the inner
> workings of creation; the Gods are real; there is not just one God
> named Jehova who controls the destinies of all things. There is not
> just one religion that is proper or "right", contrasted with scores
> that are demonic imitations or deceits, or simple manifestations of
> ignorance.
>
>
> In the sudden and shockingly violent change to a renegade form of
> hebraic monotheism, made possible by political power and force, and
> the unfortunate stations of power achieved by malcontents and ego-
> maniacs, we see a very unnatural, harmful development of the
> spiritual destines of our people, and many other peoples.
>
>
> To me, and those who understand the words of Venerable Julian, and
> who listen with open hearts to the shades of the wise ancestors and
> the words of the Gods who still watch over this darkened world,
> Rome's spiritual subjugation by christianity was a sign that greed
> and pride had finally and truly won, and it is no suprise that
> destruction and dissolution followed in it's stead. It is no suprise
> that Dark Ages followed; but for all that, those of us who have re-
> entered into fellowship with our blessed ancestors and the rightful
> Gods of our people and our hearts have found a peace and a vision
> that has no comparison; the dream that was can and will
> live again.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Taurinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Apollonia Acta -- Weekly Roman Archeology and News
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:48:23 +0200

Salvete Omnes,

this week news with a good one about a gladiator school... (without lions...)

http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/

Enjoy!!

Valete,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Summons for Jurors. NR MOCK-TRIAL
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 03:32:31 -0700 (PDT)

Quintus Fabius Maximus writes:

> The following summons are issued for:
[...]
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
[...]

> You volunteered last year to act as the Jury in the
> matter of the Appeal of Roman citizen
> Lucius Marconius Romanus against his sentence of
> lifelong banishment.

> You are directed to subscribe to the following list:
> NR_mock_trial-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I've subscribed, but given the amount of time that has
elapsed, I consider it a very ill conceived idea to
proceed now. While I know this has always been put
forth as a mock trial, if it continues now, more than
a year after it was first convened, I fear it will be
more a mockery than anything else.

Furthermore, I'll point out that what I volunteered
for over a year ago was participation in an exercise
which I was assured would "take about a month." Many,
many months have since passed. I think it is better
now if we simply start fresh, and I strongly recommend
that course of action.

=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@yahoo.com.au>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:44:22 +1000 (EST)

Salve Lucius Arminius,

We don't ignore people like Constantius Magnus and
Theodosius the Great because of their Christianity. I
have heard no-one here with forcefully anti-Christian
views on Constantine.

As for Theodosius, I think that the reason he is so
criticized is that he was mostly called 'the Great'
because of his militant Christianity, and his peace
with Persia was not exactly a great acheivement. Also,
at times from reading about him, it is hard to decide
who is the real emperor, Ambrose or Theodosius. It
seems that Ambrose says "jump" and Theodosius says
"How high". Also, Theodosius left behind two of the
most inept emperors in Honorius and Arcadius. Where
Valentinian had spared the time to at least train his
successor in the rudiments of imperial rule, this was
something that Theodosius neglected to a criminal
degree.

Now, I am a pagan myself, but I have nothing against
Christianity or any other religion for that matter.
But the truth is that Theodosius, while being to some
degree better than, was given the title of "the Great"
just as Leo I was...due to his extreme Orthodox
Christianity.

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Salve, 
 
I�ve noticed many times a kind of intelectual
�ostracism� here (NR) 
against the memories of Constantinus Magnus and
Teodosius the Great. 
I fear it. And I fear it because this can show a
little bit of 
prejudice, just because they were christians. 
 
But we must see Constantinus and Teodosius as two deep
examples of 
roman virtues and good government of the Empire. They
have ruled Rome 
in a time that even Augustus would be in
trouble. 
 
Let�s not forget the roman christians on our classical
studies. The 
Constitution states that we must respect all �credos�.
As new romans, 
many as �new pagans� let�s not repeat the errors of
persecution (and 
a worse prosecution now, the intelectual persecution)
of the old 
romans/pagans. Even the pagan gods don�t approve the
persecution. 
 
So, bring back Teodosius and Constantinus to the light
on the Hall of 
Heros, together with Romulus, Brutus, Publicola, Cato,
Scipio, 
Aemilius, Gracchus, Cicero, Pompeius, Vespasianus,
Antoninus and many 
others... 
 
Vale bene in pacem deorum (pagans and christian!) 
L. Arminius Faustus 
Interpreter et scriba 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:11:23 -0400

The same group of people that have labeled Constantine "the Great" and Theodosius "the Great" also labeled Julian "the Apostate." So I simply consider the source.

We live in a modern era, and we are New Romans. However, as a Neo-Pagan -- and a very active one -- I must say that I CAN and DO tolerate non-Pagan religions. However, I do not have to honor their saints, nor do I have to acknowledge their myths as being "possible."

As a matter of fact I am disgusted by the period of history that was the transition period between Pagan Rome and Christian Rome. When Rome was Pagan Rome was great.

On a side note, I have studied Christianity extensively (primarily Catholic and Orthodox) and there are some exceptional examples of piety and faith among the stories of the saints, hermits, et al.

I feel the Religion of the old Gods of Rome are essential to the survival and growth of Nova Roma.

G. Modius Athanasius

In a message dated Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:44:22 +1000 (EST), gaiussentius@yahoo.com.au writes:

>
>
> Salve Lucius Arminius,
>
> We don't ignore people like Constantius Magnus and
> Theodosius the Great because of their Christianity. I
> have heard no-one here with forcefully anti-Christian
> views on Constantine.
>
> As for Theodosius, I think that the reason he is so
> criticized is that he was mostly called 'the Great'
> because of his militant Christianity, and his peace
> with Persia was not exactly a great acheivement. Also,
> at times from reading about him, it is hard to decide
> who is the real emperor, Ambrose or Theodosius. It
> seems that Ambrose says "jump" and Theodosius says
> "How high". Also, Theodosius left behind two of the
> most inept emperors in Honorius and Arcadius. Where
> Valentinian had spared the time to at least train his
> successor in the rudiments of imperial rule, this was
> something that Theodosius neglected to a criminal
> degree.
>
> Now, I am a pagan myself, but I have nothing against
> Christianity or any other religion for that matter.
> But the truth is that Theodosius, while being to some
> degree better than, was given the title of "the Great"
> just as Leo I was...due to his extreme Orthodox
> Christianity.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Constantinus et Teodosius - Trying II
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lucius=20Arminius=20Faustus?= <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:26:55 -0300 (ART)

Salvete omnia,

I enjoyed a lot you continues the discussion about the late days of the Ocidental Empire. (Yeah, because the Oriental Empire continued... christan and mighty. Have someone realized that the romans did never said �The Roman Empire has fallen?�. Let�s think about it)

I must say I still fell a kind of �angryness� about the natural sucession of one religion by another more fit to its time (because the religons, as well as the governments, change as the human mind changes). And if there is some historians that charge Teodosius Magnus of religious fanatism, there is many others that charge Iulianus at the same way.

Now, trying to be a little bit philosophical, couldn�t we say that the christians virtues, forces that Constantinus et Teodosius dealed as masters, wasn�t the same roman virtues at a 'higher' ground (God based) for �all-mankind�? Many and many historians defends that the christianhood gave �new life and survivor� the Empire. We could say that Constaninus and Teodosius are of the same �alloy� that Augustus and Marcus Aurelius were done, they just had a different �pattern�. The seed and the tree are different, but are the same species. That is the point I would like to see you talking about.

And please, let�s take a look on this wrong �Dark Age� expression. The X centuries of the Middle Ages are full of good things and noble accomplishments. Politically, there was a weakness of the european governments, but politics is not everything!

But who cannot simply chat about these two emperos, called �Magnus�by the people of their time, without simplifications and offense to religion (pagan and christian), please, try to ignore these posts.

We have in NR that days a problem of so great childish, that we can�t simply start a topic without flare a war on that list!

Vale bene in pacem deorum, (pagans and christian)

L. Arminius Faustus

Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.

Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html

Se de �cio estou, divirto-me escrevendo,

Entre os defeitos meus, este enumero...

Satira Quarta, Hor�cio

---------------------------------
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas f�ceis de usar, espa�o de sobra e acess�rios.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LUDI VICTORIA: MILITARY VICTORY: AEMILIUS PAULLUS (Part 1)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20Dugdale?= <racheledugdale@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:16:52 +0100 (BST)

Under the auspices of the Senior Curule Aedile Caeso
Fabius Quintilianus, the first part of an account of
the campaign of Lucius Aemilius Paullus against the
kingdom of Macedonia is hereby presented to the Senate
and People at the following place:

http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/victoria/history.htm

The concluding part will be presented tomorrow.

Gaia Fabia Livia

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:59:00 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete Quirites

--- AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
> We live in a modern era, and we are New Romans.
> However, as a Neo-Pagan -- and a very active one --
> I must say that I CAN and DO tolerate non-Pagan
> religions. However, I do not have to honor their
> saints, nor do I have to acknowledge their myths as
> being "possible."

Well said - but this is ALSO the case for all
non-pagans!

> As a matter of fact I am disgusted by the period of
> history that was the transition period between Pagan
> Rome and Christian Rome. When Rome was Pagan Rome
> was great.

Yes, it was, but please keep in mind, that we here try
to rebuild the Republic. The Empire was pagan first,
but Rome wasn't great anymore (the late but still
pagan Empire was nothig more than a totalitarian [is
this the right english word?] state).

> I feel the Religion of the old Gods of Rome are
> essential to the survival and growth of Nova Roma.

The problem are not religious beliefs, but the people
who claim to represent them. Intolerance is - sadly -
immanent in all systems of belief. Early Christians
got persecuted by Roman authorities, and later the
churches persecuted *non-beliefers* etc. pp.

But one has to keep in mind, that both Roman
Catholicism and Orthodoxism preserved and transformed
many of our ideals into modern times.

What we really need is tolerance - and here, imho, NR
could act as an example to other nations.

Essential to NR are the virtues - not the religious
beliefs.

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:42:36 -0000

YEAH, that is exactly the point I was trying to reach: Constantinus
and Teodosius must be studied also, because they had good virtues as
emperors, not forgotten by their chistian beliefs...

>
> Essential to NR are the virtues - not the religious
> beliefs.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> =====
> A. Hirtius Helveticus

L. Arminius Faustus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:03:29 -0400

I believe the virtues ARE essential, and piety is one of these virtues.

Magistrates within Nova Roma are required to give an oath that states:

"As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, (name) swear to honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, (name) swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion."

As a Nova Roman Legate, for example, I do not have to "honor" the Christian God in my public dealings, nor do I have to pursue foreign Christian virtues, and I am -- in theory -- not bound to speak against the Christian faith (not that wish to get involved in a crusade). However, I do desire to be respectful when I am around Christians friends and co-workers. Its called manners <G>.

However, as an organization, a micronation, and a grouping of people we -- at least magistrates and sacerdotes -- are bound to honor the Gods of ancient Rome. You don't have to believe in them, simply honor them and do nothing that would threaten their status within our Republic.

I would also like to mention, that personally I consider all Nova Romans my brother in citizenship (or sister, whatever the case may be), regardless of personal religious beliefs. Each person comes to the Republic for different reasons, I acknowledge that and embrace it.

G. Modius Athanasius

In a message dated Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:59:00 +0200 (CEST), hirtius75ch@yahoo.de writes:

>
>
> Salvete Quirites
>
> --- AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > We live in a modern era, and we are New Romans.
> > However, as a Neo-Pagan -- and a very active one --
> > I must say that I CAN and DO tolerate non-Pagan
> > religions. However, I do not have to honor their
> > saints, nor do I have to acknowledge their myths as
> > being "possible."
>
> Well said - but this is ALSO the case for all
> non-pagans!
>
> > As a matter of fact I am disgusted by the period of
> > history that was the transition period between Pagan
> > Rome and Christian Rome. When Rome was Pagan Rome
> > was great.
>
> Yes, it was, but please keep in mind, that we here try
> to rebuild the Republic. The Empire was pagan first,
> but Rome wasn't great anymore (the late but still
> pagan Empire was nothig more than a totalitarian [is
> this the right english word?] state).
>
> > I feel the Religion of the old Gods of Rome are
> > essential to the survival and growth of Nova Roma.
>
> The problem are not religious beliefs, but the people
> who claim to represent them. Intolerance is - sadly -
> immanent in all systems of belief. Early Christians
> got persecuted by Roman authorities, and later the
> churches persecuted *non-beliefers* etc. pp.
>
> But one has to keep in mind, that both Roman
> Catholicism and Orthodoxism preserved and transformed
> many of our ideals into modern times.
>
> What we really need is tolerance - and here, imho, NR
> could act as an example to other nations.
>
> Essential to NR are the virtues - not the religious
> beliefs.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> =====
> A. Hirtius Helveticus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Land Project / Sodalitas Egressus
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:12:51 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

In regards to the first part of the subject, while I agree with the
Junior Consul and others who have posted to this list that our current
financial situation is such that to consider purchase of land at this
time is simply not possible, there still remains the question of
significant Citizen interest in this matter.

The Land Project Weblist continues, even in the light of some
discouragement, to recieve new ideas and new questions, and to my mind,
because of this, such is an area which should be at least attended to.
So, to that end, with the outstanding help of Dominus Praefectus
Serapio, Praefectus Scipio and thier excellent staff, we have
established within the Sodalitas Egressus some collections of Citizen
ideas both from the Land Project Weblist and from the Main List before
the Land Project List was established. My view and the view of my
colleagues, in this effort, is simply that those ideas (some of them
quite good) should be collected together, and saved in some kind of an
archive, since they are ideas of Citizens of Nova Roma and therefore, to
me and my fellow workers, at least, have a significant value.

These suggestions are free to be read in the Listings of the Sodalitas
Egressus for all those who care to view them, as the Listings are
established .

In addition, the Praefectus Scipio and his assigned Scribae have
undertaken the task of cataloguing ideas for financial support of this
idea, of Land Aquisition. When these tasks are completed, then a
Proposal will be drawn up using the best of these ideas and submitted to
the Senate as a set of guidelines for the purchase of land when that
determination is made sometime in the future. My friends, it is true
that the road to the goal of a piece of land for NR is a long and rocky
one. This I do not dispute. I further do not dispute the variety of
excellent ideas put forth for consideration by the Citizens of NR, in
this context. The road will be a long one, certainly, but in order to
begin the journey the first step must be taken, and that has been done.
Where the road leads and to what result our efforts are put to, no-one
can know, but we do know that there is a goldmine of NR Citizens ideas
waiting to be used efficiently and effectively, by those Magistrates
governing such, when the proper time comes.

Personnally niether my colleagues in this endeavor or myself see a
problem in gathering this material, since such an effort, to my mind,
falls within the service goals of the Sodalitas Egressus.

Should anyone who has some time to devote to the efforts of the
Sodalitas Egrssus in either this effort or any others in which the
Sodalitas is involved, for the benefit of Nova Roma, I cordially invite
you to contact either myself, my efficient Beneficarius Strabo, Dominus
Praefectus Serapio, or Praefectus Scipio.

A side note to this message, if you will forgive me, relates to the name
of the Sodalitas Egressus. When the Sodalitas Egressus was first
established my intention was for it to be named Sodalitas "Outreach"
with a appropriate Latin title. When the Senate approved the Sodalitas
based on the tenents presented to them for such an organization, the
search began for a suitable Latin name. However, the closest Latin term
that could be found, at that time, was the term "Egresssus" which I
believe in Latin means "EXIT." It was not exactly what we wished at the
time, but it was accepted as the best of what had been suggested and the
name "Egressus" was adopted. Later on, some further suggestions were
made by people in NR who perhaps had a better grasp of Latin than those
of the earlier effort. However, by that time Egressus had accomplished
much in the way of the goals that had been set forth, and had become
known as a solid Sodalitas working for the benefit of Nova Roma. That
being so, I did not wish to change the name, and asking the membersip
for a vote on the subject I was supported in my belief. I readily
attend to those citizens who objected to the name "Egressus" that some
misunderstanding has been realized on the part of newcomers to NR, but I
do not believe now, as I did not believe then that this misunderstanding
outweighs the value of the title of this Sodalitas and it's
contributions to Nova Roma.

The misunerstanding indicated above, has come to my attention from a
citizen of NR who has recently become more active in the micronation.
This individual had thought that the Sodalitas Egressus was and is
viewed by some newcomers to NR, as a rebellious organization devoted to
those disruptive elements within NR who wish to damage this micronation
and which supports the reasoning of those who have in the past left NR
in a disagreeable manner. This derermination was made of the basis of
the name "Egressus -- Exit" alone without any further search or research
into the Sodalitas or those having knowledge of it.

I stand here in Forum before the Citizens of Nova Roma, who well know me
and to whom I owe all the many honors which have been heaped upon me by
thier kindness, and trust in my values, I, as said, stand before you to
declare that the Sodalitas Egressus stands for 'Outreach" to the world
around us, and is devoted also to the values of the Citizens of Nova
Roma. Such it has always been since it's inception, and it is such now,
and as long as I have anything to do with the Sodalitas Egressus, such
will always be it's goals.

I thank you most humbly for your kind consideration of this message, and
for the opportunity to address you on these matters.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens -- Praefectus Fabrum -- Sodalitus Egressus --
Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Land Project / Sodalitas Egressus
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:53:21 +0200

Salvete Quirites!

I hereby declare my absolute support of Sodalitas Egressus and its
Praefectus Fabrum Illustris Marcus Minucius Audens, Senator of Nova
Roma. Egressus has taken a lot of work upon itself lately and is
growing. This Sodalitas has been approved officially by the Senate
and has the support of the Senate in its work to spread the word of
Nova Roma and to collect knowledge. The excellent leader of Egressus
Illustris Marcus Minucius Auden has my total confidence!

>I stand here in Forum before the Citizens of Nova Roma, who well know me
>and to whom I owe all the many honors which have been heaped upon me by
>thier kindness, and trust in my values, I, as said, stand before you to
>declare that the Sodalitas Egressus stands for 'Outreach" to the world
>around us, and is devoted also to the values of the Citizens of Nova
>Roma. Such it has always been since it's inception, and it is such now,
>and as long as I have anything to do with the Sodalitas Egressus, such
>will always be it's goals.
>
>I thank you most humbly for your kind consideration of this message, and
>for the opportunity to address you on these matters.
>
>Respectfully;
>
>Marcus Minucius Audens -- Praefectus Fabrum -- Sodalitus Egressus --
>Nova Roma

--
Valete

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:41:50 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:

> The problem are not religious beliefs, but the people
> who claim to represent them. Intolerance is - sadly -
> immanent in all systems of belief. Early Christians
> got persecuted by Roman authorities, and later the
> churches persecuted *non-beliefers* etc. pp.

Salve, friend:

You are right here- but it needs to be pointed out:

The early christians were not persecuted and killed for their
religious beliefs; they were killed for breaking the law. They
categorically refused to make offerings of incense to the Genius of
the Emperor- which was a civic duty that all Romans were expected to
carry out, and to fail to do so was an offence tantamount to treason.

Judges in Rome told the christians that were brought before them that
they would be executed if they did not make the token sacrifice- in
fact, sometimes those judges gave them many chances to do this. The
judges were in no hurry to kill christians.

By not burning incense or making offerings to the Genuis of the Royal
Family, the chrisitans were striking at the heart and soul of Roman
order. Also, very outspoken christians like Justin were abusive
towards the Emperor and towards venerable pagan customs- calling them
demonic and ignorant. Christians would attend public State religious
festivals and be openly mocking- these are the reasons why they
were "persecuted"- because they were breaking the law. Marcus
Aurelius accuses them (rightly) of public "histrionics" and of a
desire to make a spectacle of themselves and achieve noteriety by
getting themselves killed.

All over the classical world, from the time of Greece onward, a
person was allowed to believe as they wanted, so long as they did not
publically offend the State or city Gods- because such an act was
believed to be dangerous, as it could draw the wrath of that God down
on the city or nation. Christians were doing this. It was against the
laws of that day.

And there was one more thing- aside from being scornful of
traditional religious practises and Gods, and aside from treasonously
not making the pious and expected sacrifices required of all loyal
citizens, the christian cult was originally a type of "mystery" cult-
and it refused to allow public scrutiny into its religious rites- and
at the time of several emperors, for instance, Marcus Aurelius- it
was illegal for more than a given amount of people to gather in
private for any reason, without special permission. This was to
discourage revolutions and treasonous plotting. Christians DID gather
in secret, without permission- another violation of the law that
could cost you your life. Finally, they also had young children with
them behind these closed doors, and they refused to say what they
were doing with them. This struck the government as strange and
potentially scandalous.

I just wanted to place my three cents in here, in regards to
the "persecution" of christians- it didn't begin as a matter of Rome
simply being intolerant of another religion- it began with christians
making spectacles of themselves and basically committing suicide by
breaking the law publically and then refusing to do as their judges
asked them and recant and just burn a token amount of incense.

Later on, after they had made good villains out of themselves by
openly mocking everything that the Roman Empire held holy, and
calling it's Gods demons, they would be used as convienient
scapegoats and targets by the government- a fate that they
effectively brought on themselves, and to be clear, they loved it- it
gave them the chance of "holy martyrdom" that most of them were
obssesed with achieving.

Rome would have put to death the followers of ANY religion that had
acted as the early christians acted.

Taurinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:05:17 -0000

Salve Gale...

I'll address some of your response:

I would respond that christianity did not. Judaism may have; but
christianity comes from no ancient source, only the supposed sayings
and teachings of a semi-historical hellenized jewish man who was
executed in the first century of the common era.

I would say that Christianity did evolve. The coming of the Messiah
was predicted throughout the old testament, as far away as China and
the East where the three wisemen came from. Reason dictates that if
God was to send us a messenger he would pre � tell us as Movie
directors and auto manufacturers do about their upcoming events.

I wonder what you mean by "properly tried". I'd say that 2000 years
is enough time to try something out- and if the supposed "pure and
good" teachings of this doubtful christ are supposedly layered under
the evil manipulations of politics, and they still haven't been
seperated out and actualized in two millenia, chances are, they never
will be.

Again many people never learn since time in memorial or refuse to
follow the teachings of God or Gods even when part of those
religions. The Pagan religions, as you say around much longer have
fared no better and have become so small in number compared to the
larger religions for the same reasons. The fact that so many people
abandoned them shows that there were the human nature problems within
them too. With the gods and god we do have as human beings the nature
of freewill and do not have to follow their teachings and ideas at
our peril

Teaching people to be kind and generous, respectful and merciful is
nothing new; pagans had similar virtues. Why should they need to put
aside traditional pagan religion and try this new focus on virtue
under the banner of another religion like christianity? A virtuous
person is a virtuous person, regardless of religion; christianity is
not now, nor was it ever a pre-requisite to being a good person.

True but these virtues had not at all been working then as today.
Sometimes such leaders were sent to straighten things out and remind
us of our awful ways. The old ways were not working well just as they
do not today.

Do you mean that you sometimes "warn" people about Polytheism or
other non-christian religions?

No, when you are born into a certain religion you are indoctrinated
that this is the way to God etc. So many other peoples feel as strong
and tied to their beliefs as some Christians do and I respect that it
is extremely difficult to change. Besides it is better to teach by
good example than preaching, condemning etc. I am talking of moral
things. For example last week I debated a Muslim woman about suicide
bombings, She believed it was sometimes necessary and you'd be
rewarded in heaven in a beautiful paradise etc. I cautioned her and
said she should read the Koran. Secondly such actions are condemned
by God. Paradise? Have you never been to Acapulco or Tahiti said I?
Thirdly, if you are mistaken the devil may be awaiting on the other
side rather than the angels. I did not condemn but only cautioned her
so she could pass the idea to others.

Well, you speak from your experience, and I speak from mine- My Gods
HAVE appeared to me; they have worked in my life; I have felt their
power, and I have a faith based on experience, not a faith based on
hope or non-experience.

Well I am still waiting. I do sense that I get spiritual help but
very few see the god or gods in reality.

Nor does a person need to use the slide-ruler of science for any kind
of certainty- science can explain things, but it cannot find meaning;
and it has no power to find Truth- truth to science is nothing more
than the smallest margin of error. Science is a poor tool by which to
be "sure" of anything by.

But the fruits of its results are much easier to visually see and
use. I am having this discussion with you and Nova Roma can only
exist here thanks to science.

In conclusion I certainly agree that Christianity has had many
problems and that evil things were done its name but I need not
remind you of many of the pagan religions had committed terrible
deeds also and thus have little to teach Christians in that respect.
In fact it was the Romans (in pagan religion) that did not tolerate
human sacrifice and crushed the Druids in Britain and Europe as well
as ending the Carthaginian God Moloch and his appetite for children.
Think of the Thugee cult in India that murdered thousands in the 18,
19th centuries.

My Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius - Trying II
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:09:14 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@y...> wrote:
>
> Salve L. Armini,

It is often a good idea to have dialogues with other religions. Even
the Pope in Rome has greatly encouraged this over the last 22 years.
When people on these posts criticize my points of view I take it that
they have a problem with my idea (learned from somone else anyway),
not me as a person. None of my fellow colleagues here have attacked
me personally; on the contrary we are having a good debate with one
another and airing out some differences while learning at the same
time. In the pubs (tavernas) they say you should never discuss
religion and politics but what's left then? Talking about each other?
Still there are then problems.

My bottom line is to express my ideas and differences and remember
from Philosophy 100 that the 1st fallacy in logic is "ad hominum"
when you attack a person instead of his argument. Avoid this fallacy
and arguments cruise along much better and are considered more valid.
Whatever conclusions we come to, I still respect other's beliefs and
will abide and protect Nova Roma and its Religio Romano as stated in
the constitution. I signed up for the roman religious course and was
taught and always loved Greek Mythology.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

> But who cannot simply chat about these two emperos, called
�Magnus�by the people of their time, without simplifications and
offense to religion (pagan and christian), please, try to ignore
these posts.
>
> We have in NR that days a problem of so great childish, that we
can�t simply start a topic without flare a war on that list!
>
>
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum, (pagans and christian)
>
>
>
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.
>
> Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)
>
> Visit my office at
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html
>
>
>
> Se de �cio estou, divirto-me escrevendo,
>
> Entre os defeitos meus, este enumero...
>
> Satira Quarta, Hor�cio
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! GeoCities
> Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas f�ceis de usar, espa�o de
sobra e acess�rios.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:=5F[Nova-Roma]=5FVesta?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:24:16 +0200

Spectatus Lucius Sicinius

I shall try to explain better my point.
It is positively true that NR has been existing for five years, but is
true equally that it is not (not yet!) a State as Rome has been. We
can't rule over any portion of territory, we can't do war against
enemies, we can't do anything a State can do, and in particular the PAX
DEORUM, agreement with the Gods has been SOLVED by Emperor Gratianus.
So we don't exist as a state: we can't have a Vesta's fire, because
only a state can.
Moreover, we certainly know how to light the fire, as you recall, but
we just know the mean of lighting, not the ritual. And you know that in
any ritual the slightest mistake would render the ritual invalid or
even harmful.
We all wait for Roma to rise again new but must not believe this nearly
a dream.
Diis lanatos pedes HABENT!
Reverenter

Gallus Solaris Alexander


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:54:02 +0000

>From: "g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et
>Teodosius)
>Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:41:50 -0000
>>
>The early christians were not persecuted and killed for their
>religious beliefs; they were killed for breaking the law. They
>categorically refused to make offerings of incense to the Genius of
>the Emperor- which was a civic duty that all Romans were expected to
>carry out, and to fail to do so was an offence tantamount to treason.
>

Salvete

If the above sounds so strange to modern ears, in 21st century America,
in certain circumstances, you could get beaten up for not flying the flag or
for criticizing the government, both of which are considered treasonous by
many.

Valete
Galerius Peregrinator.

_________________________________________________________________
Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband.� Join now!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ordo equester/konoko Network Consulting, Inc.
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:29:06 -0400

Ex Officio Censores Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus SPD

In accordance with article II.c.3. Ordo equester Constitution Novae Romae,
it is our pleasure to announce the inclusion of konoko Network Consulting, Inc.
into the Macellum. Marcus Octavius Germanicus is given status of Ordo equester effective
ante diem VIII Kalendas November MMDCCLV auc

Mars nos protegas.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Christian Roots
From:	Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:33:48 -0700

Salvete Quirites!

One always weighs the choice: do I snip, and keep the email short (at the
risk of losing context), or do I fully include a long email, and thus burden
the server (and especially digest versions) with occasionally redundant
material? Sometimes the one, sometimes the other. In this instance, I
choose to snip because the remainder of the message touches on other
subjects:

Quintus Lanius Paulinus wrote:
> Thank you for your interesting and informative response regarding the
> pagan religion of Rome. I appreciate your time and thought in
> anwering my point. I would acknowledge that Judeo - Christianity
> actually or naturally evolved from the more older religions that had
> many gods.

To which G. Valerius Taurinus responded:
>I would respond that christianity did not. Judaism may have; but
christianity comes from no ancient source, only the supposed sayings and
teachings of a semi-historical hellenized jewish man who was executed in the
first century of the common era.<

I would like to add the following, based on my own personal research. Let
me add that although I am now an atheist, I respect and honor the Roman
Pantheon, respect all religions, and hold an M.Div. from Pacific Lutheran
Theological Seminary (where I also studied with Jesuits as well as
professors of other Christian faiths).

Christianity is in fact based only partly on many divergent oral traditions
surrounding the life and teachings (mostly alleged) of Jesus the Christ.
The Anti-Nicene Fathers (available online at http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/)
especially show the diversity of opinions in the age before the many written
Gospels, themselves occasionally incongruous, came to be. Much of
monotheistic belief derives from Zoroastrianism, and Christianity doesn't
just "adopt" or "co-opt" pagan traditions such as death/resurrection and
various miracles for the sake of convenience, it actually draws heavily upon
these traditions. Many of the miracles of Jesus were performed by other
mythic figures long before him (such as the virgin birth, childhood
prodigies, etc.). It is my belief, further, that many of the miracles
attributed to Jesus are in fact demonstrations of his triumph over various
other deities. As instances: Raising people from the dead doesn't just
parallel Hercules and Orpheus, it is a "triumph" over Hades/Pluto and other
chthonic deities. Walking on water through a storm triumphs over
Neptune/Poseidon and other storm deities. Turning water into wine at will
shows his power over Bacchus/Dionysius, Venus, Jupiter. The list goes on.

In other words, Christianity was not really a new thing at all. The battles
within the "orthodox" parties and between them and the Gnostic parties were
all part of the process of devising the religion, choosing which elements
would serve it. The dualistic nature of a war between good and evil is not
Judaic, but Zoroastrian, and the location of sin in that act of sex (and
generated by Woman) is derived not from the teachings of Jesus or Judaism,
but many ascetic Philosophical movements that place "Spirit" above "Matter,"
particularly 3rd century Manicheanism (Mani was Persian, if I recall).
Nothing in the teachings of Jesus, however apocryphal many of them may be,
teaches that sex is sinful or that "spirit" exists apart from "matter." The
whole point of the Resurrection of the Dead for Judgment is that spirit
cannot be separated from matter, they are inextricably linked. The
viability of the Soul pre-birth and post-death are entirely Pagan
philosophical ideas, more in line with Platonism than the teachings or life
of Jesus.

Another interesting website I've stumbled upon is:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/Gospel-Timeline.html

None of this is to suggest that Christianity is evil, wrong, or fake: at the
risk of cliche, I have many Christian friends, and I respect their use of
the religion to seek betters lives for themselves and others. My point is
that Christianity was never a "new thing." Recognition of its many, often
conflicting, sources ought to be not a case for doubt, but for humility and
respect for the traditions of others, something with which Monotheisms in
general (including those of Akhenaten and my own dear Varius Avitus
Bassianus, called Elagabalus) seem to have a hard time.

If I may add one tiny personal point, I believe that being "spiritual"
doesn't necessitate a belief in invisible intelligent beings or depend upon
deities. I consider myself a very spiritual atheist, and seek to find and
honor my place in a world of complexity far beyond my capacity to fully
comprehend.

Valete Omnes,

GN. IVLIVS STRABO


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs (was: Constantinus et Teodosius)
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:50:29 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Gale...

> I would say that Christianity did evolve. The coming of the Messiah
> was predicted throughout the old testament,

The old testament was a tiny tradition which belonged to a tiny group
of people; it does not speak for the world at large. Any messages
that the hebrew god gave to them in no way means that the whole world
was meant to hear these messages. The hebrews may have felt that they
needed a messiah, but the vast majority of the rest of the world had
and still has religions that teach them to work and do things for
themselves, and not to expect some god to come and do everything for
you. Pagan religion was about responsibility and duty, not
scapegoating blame and guilt off onto a messiah and expecting him to
suffer for your mistakes and then come back one day to make the whole
world right. That is childish. Those are empty and contrived promises
created by political forces and fed to people who strongly desired an
easy way out of life's problems.

> Again many people never learn since time in memorial or refuse to
> follow the teachings of God or Gods even when part of those
> religions. The Pagan religions, as you say around much longer have
> fared no better and have become so small in number compared to the
> larger religions for the same reasons. The fact that so many people
> abandoned them shows that there were the human nature problems
within
> them too.

I disagree here- people didn't suddenly and dramatically "abandon"
paganism overnight- they were forced by the legal threat of death to
do so. Paganism survived in secret in many ways, especially in
academia and in poetics- but also in the hearts and minds of the less
urban peoples, for quite a long time. It is still far from dead, and
it is making a slow but steady recovery. The time of the hebrew one
god is over; people no longer desire the repression and the slavery
of the senses and the passions that his religion teaches. Religion
and government are no longer one power in the civilized countries of
the west, and people can live as they choose now, without fear- and
the Old Gods are still there.

> True but these virtues had not at all been working then as today.

I disagree. Moral and Virtue are functions of the human soul, and are
as old as mankind itself. Moral and Virtue, if anything, has SUFFERED
in the modern day, and I think that most of us could agree. Morals
and Virtues were not brought down off of mount Sinai, nor were they
first promulgated by apostles.

> Sometimes such leaders were sent to straighten things out and
remind
> us of our awful ways. The old ways were not working well just as
they
> do not today.

The Old Ways were working fine. Humans are humans, and they always
will be. It was the new religion that found a scapegoat in
traditional religion, and then villanized human nature. I reject
those things- and so do a growing number of people who have found
their way back to paganism.

> No, when you are born into a certain religion you are indoctrinated
> that this is the way to God etc.

Yes, we call it brainwashing over here in the States. It's the only
way that certain religions can survive, because if people are given
rational, unbiased, honest, and wide perspectives on religions like
christianity and islam, and if they compare them without bias to the
other religions of the world, they will tend to choose other
religions, religions that allow them some joy in THIS life, and the
ability to find truth in Nature and in themselves, and that don't
paralyze them with fear and repression throughout this life, in
preparation for a supposed "afterlife".

So many other peoples feel as strong
> and tied to their beliefs as some Christians do and I respect that
it
> is extremely difficult to change.

It is the work of the essential human to find peace and harmony
within themselves, and to see that same peace and harmony recognized
in the world around them; if a religion stands in the way of this-
and monotheistic religions with their evangelism and their absolutism
certainly tend to- then CHANGE is necesarry, and this change is the
essential human's duty.

To sign off, I would suggest that the stories of Druidic human
sacrifice were HIGHLY exaggerated by Ceasar, to gain support for his
illegal and corrupt war in Gaul- and the stories of Moloch eating
children in his fires were likewise exaggerated by christianity,
among others. It's the equivalent of paganism calling
christians "cannibals". If you didn't understand christian doctrine,
you'd be afraid of them if I told you they were flesh-eating, blood
drinking cannibals- if you did not understand their sacraments.

Taurinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Christian Roots
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:35:10 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I enjoyed the post 'two doors up', from C Strabo on the origins of
Christianity, and your relating of same to the traditional belief
systems of antiquity.

Nicely expressed, and very, very informative, with links to boot :)

Bene valete,

Pompeia


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ordo equester/konoko Network Consulting, Inc.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:50:15 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete Censores,

> In accordance with article II.c.3. Ordo equester Constitution Novae Romae,
> it is our pleasure to announce the inclusion of konoko Network Consulting, Inc.
> into the Macellum. Marcus Octavius Germanicus is given status of Ordo equester effective
> ante diem VIII Kalendas November MMDCCLV auc

Thank you for the quick action.

As I have already received several requests for web site hosting from
Nova Roma citizens, I felt it would be appropriate to return some of
that money to our treasury, and therefore requested membership in
the Ordo Equester.

I will be donating ten percent of the money received for hosting
ordinary web sites, and twenty percent for Roman-themed sites.
I will immediately make a payment of $36 for two sites that
have been on my servers for some time. As this is a recurring
service, the donation will also be recurring yearly for the
existing customers as well as any new ones.

Valete, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Christian Roots
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:18:09 -0000

Snip for space;

Salve G. Iuli Strabo>

I agree with Senator Cornelia about your excellent posting. I think
it is a good summary which fairly resolves this debate in my mind. On
the various points I have made in my previous postings I have lots of
reference materials and could write a few pages on each issue. Some
of your points about Christ preforming miracles to show triumph over
past gods I just read in Fulton Sheen's Life of Christ. As far as
past history goes with attitudes, truths or exagerations go we
actually need science to someday build a time machine so we can go
back and witness the reality for ourselves. Anyway thanks to your
letter I am going to rest my case at this point. Thank you for
sharing your expertise with us.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

> None of this is to suggest that Christianity is evil, wrong, or
fake: at the
> risk of cliche, I have many Christian friends, and I respect their
use of
> the religion to seek betters lives for themselves and others. My
point is
> that Christianity was never a "new thing." Recognition of its
many, often
> conflicting, sources ought to be not a case for doubt, but for
humility and
> respect for the traditions of others, something with which
Monotheisms in
> general (including those of Akhenaten and my own dear Varius Avitus
> Bassianus, called Elagabalus) seem to have a hard time.
>
> If I may add one tiny personal point, I believe that
being "spiritual"
> doesn't necessitate a belief in invisible intelligent beings or
depend upon
> deities. I consider myself a very spiritual atheist, and seek to
find and
> honor my place in a world of complexity far beyond my capacity to
fully
> comprehend.
>
> Valete Omnes,
>
> GN. IVLIVS STRABO


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Richard Harris
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:09:21 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete Omnes,

This Just In: Actor Richard Harris has died at 72.

He played the emperor Marcus Aurelius in "Gladiator", and the
dictator Lucius Cornelius Sulla in an upcoming TV miniseries.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Land
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:13:05 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : �L. Sicinius Drusus� <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
>
>Despite it's low price I would advise against any land
>purchases in Albania. It's a Muslam country, and no
>religion is more anti-pagan than Islam. I realize that
>
Albania! It is not Muslim: it merely has a large nominally Muslim population. It also has a large bandit, organised crime and heavily armed extremely poor and ignorant population. Colombia might be a safer place!
Italy already has a curious artistic 'Reppublica di Damanhur' under the Alps. They would probably be favourable to Roman activities (especially with a rightist government run by a media tycoon and I believe including a certain Signor Mussolini's daughter) and it may be that Damanhur took advantage of strange laws (which Italy also has in abundance along with bribery round them) to set itself up. However, anything there would implicitely be subject to European Community (ie Confederacy) legislation. Next door, Switzerland might have the odd valley going within its Confederatione and is only just thinking about joining the UN but I have heard that Federal law is somewhat more sweeping than they like to present. It is also the most expensive country south of Scandinavia. I'd look at Carribean tax havens which might have the occasional barely inhabited island going.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

"You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions. You are not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions." Prof. Noam Chomsky

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma]Roman cops
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:19:30 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
>
>
>> Ancient cities usually tried to protect the rich or nobility. Much
>had to do
>> their importance in the city life. The poor was left to fend for
>> themselves. Many crossroad associations formed posses to protect
>their own
>> from brigands.
>
Well of course it was the rich who ran the show but also who were honour-bound to return something to the community which had allowed them to get and protected their wealth - a far cry from most of today's wealthy.

>And in no doubt some cases the crossroads associations were the
>brigands and their protection was akin to the protection afforded by
>the Mafia. <Grin>
>
This, more than social injustice, is what I had in mind. The reality is that there is never no law and no order: if it isn't done by the State for the People it is done by the Strong for the Strong. This is so perfectly obvious in arguments elsewhere with several South Africans, in the mayhem following the collapse of State Corporatism in Eastern Europe and of course barely a hundred miles away and in several collapsing US cities where partisan natives prefer their own villains to anybody's police.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Canadian land ownership (was Land)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:29:00 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
>
>Hmmm, however, I somehow cannot *see* HRM Elizabeth II munching down
>a plate of fries sopping in gravy.
>
One no doubt sops excess up with one's monogrammed bread roll - all grown and stone-ground on one's eldest son's organic farms.
I thought that was a purely Midland habit: gravy, I always assumed, was supposed to moisten dry meat and veg. In the Birmingham canteen they persisted in leaving meat slices looking like shoe leather while turning nice crips chips into a nasty soggy mess. What can one expect of people who drink Scotch and Orange juice?
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] French Fries
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:35:45 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : =?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
>
>Rotten grape juice???? Please explain.....
>
>Actually there is a Midlands tradition of eating them
>with curry sauce!!! And I totally agree about the
>mayonaisse....YUK!!!...Sorry Diana ;-)
>
Oh no, Mayonnaise is delicate and civilised; it's Salad Cream that's the abomination. I'm not sure if an Indian would recognise chip shop curry sauce but the worst abomination has to be the Northern and South Scottish (home also of the battered fried Mars Bar and Haggis) habit of covering them with a green lumpy slime called Moosha Payss. Rumour has it that this is the local dialect for Mushy Peas but one has one's doubts. Especially about the lumps.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Variations of Canadian Climate
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:24:39 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
>
>Pelee Island is also at very nearly the same
>latitude (41 degrees north) as Rome (40). My
>uncle's home in Leamington, the small city
>adjacent to Point Pelee provincial park, enjoys
>a pleasant mild climate throughout the year.
>
Rome is hotter now than it was then and probably drier given the immense deforestation since ancient times. The Mediterranean is too small to cool wind from the Sahara greatly though I believe the Alps and Apennines provide something of a windbreak for the evils of Boreas, the Siberian Mistral that plagues the French Riviera.
I am surprised that any part of Canada runs so far South (but I only discovered yesterday it is a bare 165 years old - I thought it was much older than the USA). Isn't the 48th parallel the border?
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] French Fries
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:42:36 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Paul Kershaw <brighn@yahoo.com>
>
> Vinegar = aged wine (more or less)
> Wine = fermented grape juice
>
> A condiment of choice in England for �chips� is vinegar.
>
You won't find the kind of people to use wine vinegar drenchinig their chips in it though! It's brown malt vinegar there and clear distilled vinegar here, which I admit took my breath away first time I came into contact with it. Then again, I keep a small bottle of the stuff with chillies lurking in it for cooking.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

"You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions. You are not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions." Prof. Noam Chomsky

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Christian Roots
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:00:05 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@f...> wrote:

> If I may add one tiny personal point, I believe that
being "spiritual"
> doesn't necessitate a belief in invisible intelligent beings or
depend upon
> deities. I consider myself a very spiritual atheist, and seek to
find and
> honor my place in a world of complexity far beyond my capacity to
fully
> comprehend.

I suppose it depends on how you define "spiritual". If you take the
implied meaning, i.e. "relating to spirit", then a belief in spirit
or spirits would seem to be a needed element-

However, I understand that the word has a broad set of meanings and
implications in the modern world.

Likewise, I have a BA and an MA in European History; I am somewhat
focused on religions of Antiquity, esp. the origins of Christianity.
I applaud your well written letter; you covered the salient points of
christianity's origins, in far more detail than I felt motivated to.

I was only making the point in my original statement that
christianity is not as old as other pagan religions- and I stand by
that, because no matter what "elements" it may have drawn itself
from, it is not a direct heir of those elements. It may have co-opted
or stolen or borrowed elements of earlier traditions, but
christianity's basic approach and fanaticism, mixed with extreme
puritanicalism and total state backing, was unprecedented.

It (christianity) was different enough in attitude and approach, in
my opinion, to be held as seperate from any of it's many
inspirational and ancient roots. I would say that it drew on many
good and powerful things from hallowed antiquity, and some not so
good things, and yet, thanks to its unique blend of intolerance,
madness and power-hunger, managed to divorce itself from the honor or
depth that any of those roots may have maintained.

As far as your self-admitted Atheism, well, I have known several
atheists; we don't tend to get along well, but you seem a
knowledgable fellow.

I would only like to make that statement that this feeling of awe and
of 'seeking' that you experience in this vast and "complex" world
that you are a part of, is what I assume fulfills the same role in
your life as the Gods and the Numinous forces in the lives of
polytheists- and if you are truly comfortable with this eternal
seeking and recognition of complexity that you can "never fully
comprehend", then so be it- But I would suggest that perhaps you are
limiting yourself unnecesarily. I believe that the powers that
converge in thet form of a human being reveal a greater, deeper
reality, which has infinite nature and the capacity for anything.
Nothing is impossible.

I believe that the human Psyche can be exalted by way of its divine
nature, by Theurgy, and by the Mysteries, into a new state of
experience, the Daimonic state- which the Gods themselves inhabit-
and the Magnum Mysterium of this existance can be comprehended thus.

This is the ultimate form of "seeking" spirituality; to overcome all
limitations, to enter into direct experience of Truth. Dont' take the
mantle of atheism onto yourself so easily, as it carries with it
certain implied limitations, and you seem too smart to limit yourself
so.

Regards,

T


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Judicial structures (was: Roman judicial guidelines)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:14:56 +0100 (BST)

Q. Fabius Maximus wrote (on the question of why the Senate should hear impeachments):

> > First, the historical procedure for such cases, as I understand it, was for
> > a tribune to bring charges against the accused before one of the
> > assemblies. This seems perfectly reasonable, and presumably if one
> > alternative is much like another it is best to opt for the historical one.
>
> Well, true, but our Tribunes can only protect our citizens and the spirit of
> our constitution from overbearing magistrates. They usually do this by
> issuing a veto of the offending lex.

Indeed: but if one is going to amend the constitution to introduce new judicial structures and procedures, surely it would be as easy to give this extra duty to the tribunes as to give it to the Senate?

> > Second, (and I don't wish to say that this would occur in the Senate we
> > currently have, but one must always guard against the possibility) a
> > hearing conducted exclusively by Senators might tend to be lenient towards
> > a fellow-Senator. The Romans had this problem with the standing courts, of
> > course, which was why the juries were changed back and forth between
> > Senators and equites.
>
> Ha!
> You don't know our Senate. There is not a chance of any leniency to anyone.
> We all take our duties very seriously.

Absolutely, but, as I mentioned, I am by no means attempting to suggest that the current membership of the Senate would be lenient toward one of its own. My point, if I did not make it clear before, is this: if Nova Roma is intended to last and to be a workable state, one cannot rely on every servant of the state to be rigidly upright and incorruptible. I don't doubt that all the current Senators take their duties very seriously indeed, but surely one cannot make an assumption that every Senator in the future will do so, and surely one cannot found on such an assumption a procedure vital for the protection of citizens from official misconduct.

> > Third, and this is a perhaps less important objection, the use of the Senate
> > as a court to try cases of treason (which is often linked to, though more
> > serious than, official misconduct) was an innovation of the principate, and
> > allowed the emperor more easily and subtly to sway the opinion of the jury
> > than if the case were heard by an assembly. Of course there is no emperor
> > here, but an influential senator might do the same if his or her views were
> > known (an important aspect of trial-by-jury is that the jury don't know the
> > defendant or one another), and in any case republican practice is surely
> > preferable to imperial.
>
> Any treason case here would be heard by the Senate. Banishment is the only
> possible result of a guilty verdict. Then it would be appealed to the
> Comitia by right.
> This way two courts are involved, and no one gets railroaded.

You say that treason cases would be heard by the Senate, but what I am asking is why this should be so, given the problems I have pointed out. Also, you say that banishment is the only possible sentence for treason. This is not specified in the constitution, and though I don't know whether it is specified in any edict or law, edicts and laws can be changed, as indeed can the constitution itself. So to base a judicial procedure on an assumption about what a sentence might be is surely unsound. Moreover, treason is not the only type of official misconduct: misapporporiation of public funds is another kind, as is inappropriate or illegal use of imperium. These crimes might not carry so severe a sentence as banishment. Finally, you say that a case of treason would very likely be referred by right of appeal to the assembly.If this is so, what is the purpose of having such cases heard in the Senate to begin with, rather than simply having such cases heard by the assembly to start with, as was done in the republic?

I hope you don't feel that I am attacking your proposal: I am merely searching for your answers to these questions, which I apparently failed to make clear in my previous message. I'm grateful for your willingness to spend time discussing them. Also, thank you for your response to my question about the role of the Praetors.

Jamie

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma]Roman cops
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:41:26 -0500

I asked this question a good while ago, but I thought I would ask
again. What was the equivalent of today's Police
and/or Security Guards in Rome(or did they)?

Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
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YahooMsgr: iguard2


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman judicial guidelines (was: Roman cops)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:50:57 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
>
mechanisms for dealing with crime in the republic were mutifarious and probably confusing, and this is perhaps another source of injustice in that society.
>
I think Justice in the consistent abstract sense we understand it was more an Athenian concept where you also have a (vast) jury system for decision and determining punishment. Family loyalties and rivalries, political manipulation, particularly as the Republic collapsed into warlordism and straight bribery seem to have been accepted as normal working. I think the intention was much more to demonstrate that a decision had been taken and perhaps to show associates how the political wind was blowing than any modern concept of abstract Justice which hadn't really developed. It's more to control vendettas going back and forth down the generations and to some extent the various organisations lumped together as Mafias still operate in something of that way, taking individual vengence over or pronouncing whther they accept it or not.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma]Roman cops
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:37:50 -0500


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] French Fries
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:04:51 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : �G. Noviodunus� <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
>
>>>FRENCH FRIES ARE ROMAN. =) *beg*
>>
>
>With what did Romans make their �French fries�? with apples? ;-)
>
They got them from the Belgae, probably in the form of sliced parsnip (which is actually far better braised than any other way). This according to those excellent authorities on ancient culture, Goscinny and Uderzo, in their treatise Ast�rix en Belgique.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:25:00 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : �Christopher L. Wood� <xwood@usa.net>
>
>>As it was, some of the Ostrogothic Kings of Italy seemed to be genuinely
>interested in the
>well-being of the state and did much to improve its economic health - which
>was all
>undone by the devastation wrought by Belisarius in Teodosius' war of
>reconquest.
>
I question to what extent they considered that the Empire /had/ 'fallen. All that happened was that there was one Emperor again instead of two except that he now ruled from Constantinople and his rule was indirect. But then the East too moved towards a more feudal kind of indirect rule, if not as far. When Charlemagne is crowned Western Emperor, it is not viewed as a replacement but as restoring continuity, particularly as the loathsome Eirene intended to marry him.
I suspect that Anglophones are biassed because the Anglo-Saxons were genuine pagan barbarians wanting nothing whatever to do with their predecessors and the Empire had imploded far worse in Britain and probably over a longer period going back to the 'Little Caesars' than it ever did elsewhere. If nothing else, that is evident from the failure of Latin language or institutions to survive in any of the Celtic successors.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: French Fries
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:27:58 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Though Canadian, my wife is Mexican and makes a powerful multipepper
sauce hot enough to burn Beelzebub's rear end. I like to dip my fries
in that quite often and it warms up the body on a cold day!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., me-in-@d... wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : =?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?=
<danedwardsuk@y...>
> >
> Oh no, Mayonnaise is delicate and civilised; it's Salad Cream
that's the abomination. I'm not sure if an Indian would recognise
chip shop curry sauce but the worst abomination has to be the
Northern and South Scottish (home also of the battered fried Mars Bar
and Haggis) habit of covering them with a green lumpy slime called
Moosha Payss. Rumour has it that this is the local dialect for Mushy
Peas but one has one's doubts. Especially about the lumps.
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LUDI VICTORIA: MILITARY VICTORY: AEMILIUS PAULLUS (Part 2)
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia" <racheledugdale@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:30:36 -0000

Presenting today, for your enjoyment, the conclusion of the exciting
story of Lucius Aemilius Paullus' campaign against Perseus of
Macedonia:

http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/victoria/history2.htm

If you missed the first part yesterday, it's still available at:

http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/victoria/history.htm

Gaia Fabia Livia


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] French Fries
From:	"Brighn $Paul Kershaw$" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:17:15 -0400

Yes, call me an ethnocentric Yankee, but I now realize the error of my ways. It's rotten malt, not rotten grape juice. >=)

-- Festus
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] French Fries

-----Original Message-----
From : Paul Kershaw <brighn@yahoo.com>
>
> Vinegar = aged wine (more or less)
> Wine = fermented grape juice
>
> A condiment of choice in England for "chips" is vinegar.
>
You won't find the kind of people to use wine vinegar drenchinig their chips in it though! It's brown malt vinegar there and clear distilled vinegar here, which I admit took my breath away first time I came into contact with it. Then again, I keep a small bottle of the stuff with chillies lurking in it for cooking.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Egressus
From:	"mjk" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:33:33 -0600

Salvete Senator Audens et Omnes,

I just joined Egressus 2.5 months ago and its definition seems to be straight forward enough.

Nova Roma Outreach
The Sodalitas Egressus of Nova Roma is founded to promote our Republic and establish person-to-person contact of civites of Nova Roma with other organizations of Roman-related interests. This Sodalitas list shall provide its members with a point of contact, whereby various Sodalitas ventures are discussed, and where events sponsored by either Nova Roma or other organizations shall be posted.

No revolutionary words here.

Was somone just quibbling over Semantics?

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Scriba Praefecti

AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

PAX ROMANA

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: French Fries
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:39:17 -0000

---Oh, thanks Feste for clarifying that....now the whole thing sounds
extra, 'extra' yummie......hmmm hmmm.....too bad I'm too darned full
from spaghetti to have a heaping plate full :((

Ahh well, I probably didn't 'deserve' such a treat, anyway....

Alas,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@y..., "Brighn $Paul Kershaw$" <brighn@y...> wrote:
> Yes, call me an ethnocentric Yankee, but I now realize the error of
my ways. It's rotten malt, not rotten grape juice. >=)
>
> -- Festus
> From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
> To: nova-roma@y...
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] French Fries
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From : Paul Kershaw <brighn@y...>
> >
> > Vinegar = aged wine (more or less)
> > Wine = fermented grape juice
> >
> > A condiment of choice in England for "chips" is vinegar.
> >
> You won't find the kind of people to use wine vinegar drenchinig
their chips in it though! It's brown malt vinegar there and clear
distilled vinegar here, which I admit took my breath away first time
I came into contact with it. Then again, I keep a small bottle of the
stuff with chillies lurking in it for cooking.
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]