Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Relgious Beliefs: Note from Praetor
From:	Larry Freeman <larrythebear@askmamafreeman.com>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:14:33 -0500

Salvete Galerius Peregrinator,
I must agree with your post. It was very well put, very well. But I also
see Pompeia's view to a degree as well. Any way Very Well said.
Valete!!
Laurenicus Flavius Magus.
ROMA VICTOR SEMPER EST.

At 04:55 PM 10/27/02 +0000, you wrote:



> Salve Cornelia:
>
> I am very sorry to have to disagree with your conclusion. I think you
>were referring to Ambrosius post in which he was critical of religious
>fundamentalism. He didn't seem, to me, to be picking on anybody. He did
>not single out any group. He condemned them all equally. And if it seems a
>bit harsh, he comes from a country where the flames of fundamentalism has
>been raging for decades, and it is easier to hear about it than to have to
>live with it.
>
> It is true that the christian side seem to be taking lots of criticism
>in this forum. But that is because everybody in this forum loves Rome,
>including you. Since the christians undermined and eventually destroyed
>Rome and the classical world which we are trying to revive, that should be
>understood. Having said that, the pagans have been taking abuse, too. It
>only doesn't seem to be so by those who do it.
>
> At the end nobody is trying to insult anybody. The basis for a free
>forum is free discourse. People will disagree. One side will win the
>argument, and both enrich with understanding.
>
> There are some in this forum who are, absolutely, intolerant of any kind
>of criticism, and I think your intervention is to appease their concern, and
>for those I say, this is not the place to be. Only personal attacks should
>not be tolerated. Differences of opinions abound in this forum, but all are
>united in the love for Rome.
>
> Why, if we put limitations on topics, what else will be there to talk
>about. I got a hundred post about french fries filling my box, and I don't
>even like french fries. And for those who eat too much of it, watch out for
>all that carbo, fat, and sugar. It isn't healthy for you, really.
>
> Valete omnes
>
> Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Pompeia Cornelia Strabo" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Nova-Roma] Relgious Beliefs: Note from Praetor
> >Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 23:18:34 +0000
> >
> >
> >Salvete Omnes Nova Roma Forum:
> >
> >To date the prevailing discussion on the religious influences of Roman
> >antiquita, how Rome fell, and opinions on certain religious beliefs in
> >contrast to one's own has been handled very well by all posters.
> >
> >However, when we delve into the perceived religious influences of
> >macronational politics, and making stereotypical, referenceless statements
> >about 'fundamentalists' and groups of macronational churches, this sort of
> >thing wanes in its academic usefulness, and its constructive properties
> >with
> >respect to Nova Roma.
> >
> >For every faith, Christian, Muslim, Judaism, Paganism, there are
> >fundamentalists. Nothing we can do about that.
> >
> >I would venture to say, however, that there are 'few' true 'fundies' here
> >in
> >Nova Roma, as the essence of fundamentalism is 'it's my way or the
> >highway'.......or.......'you actually believe that? Man, are you
> >stunned!".
> > How could we work as closely as we do, carrying this type of attitude?
> >
> >So comments about macronational fundamentalist influences really are not
> >much on topic any more, nor is 'venting' about another's religion in the
> >absence of any academic/historical/cultural application to either Nova Roma
> >or Roma Antiquita.
> >
> >I think posts which express dissention with another's religious belief
> >system should be taken elsewhere, either in private, or on the religio
> >list,
> >where the topic is more 'religion centered', but common courtesy and a
> >certain degree of referencing is required there also.
> >
> >This forum is the window through which the public views us. There are many
> >here of various faiths, who practise humbly and contribute to the growth of
> >Nova Roma, respect the religio, and the like. Not everyone is going to
> >agree on every element of even their own professed religion anyway. I have
> >seen rather powerful arguments on pagan-centered religious list, and
> >Christian lists, respectively.
> >
> >Great discussion...but let us keep our discussion fact-oriented and topic
> >oriented, SVP.
> >
> >Pompeia......
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN!
> >http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN!
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>
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>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] THE OPENING OF THE QUARTERS OF THE MAXIMI LUDI CIRCENSES!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:12:33 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

I HEREBY OPEN THE QUARTERS OF THE MAXIMI LUDI CIRCENSES!

This Quarters of the Ludi Circenses will start today the 28th of
October. Please get to the Circus again and support your own
faction!!!

--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On religious beliefs
From:	Larry Freeman <larrythebear@askmamafreeman.com>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:41:30 -0500

Salvete!!!
Very well said, Diana Moravia Aventina, Very well said. I too have had
similar experiences, from the same type of person. Again Very well said,
very well said.
Valete!!!
Laurenicus Flavius Magus.



At 09:55 PM 10/27/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Roman BriefpapierSalvete,
>
> > I would say that Christianity did evolve. The coming of the Messiah
> > was predicted throughout the old testament,
>
>Yes, but when Jesus was presented as the 'Son of God', it was a rather
>trendy title 2000 years ago. Before Jesus, Alexander the Great was a son of
>a God and I believe Buddha as well.
>
>Many of the current beliefs of the Christians only came about years and
>years after the death of Jesus. For example, the idea of Immaculate
>conception wasn't a new one 2000 years ago and it wasn't applied to Mary
>while she was alive. Women did not have souls and later that was changed.
>Now it is only animals that fit into this soulless category, making it easy
>for us to exploit them without guilt.
>
>Most people did not convert to Christianity of their own free will. For
>example, I think that Sweden (or Denmark) was converted by pulling out the
>eyeballs of the mayor in the village square. The Christian soldiers then
>asked who else didn't want to convert.
>
>Another (very smart) tactic of the Christians to convert people was by
>renaming Pagan holidays into Christian ones. For example, most Christmas
>traditions are Pagan in origin: Dec 25 is Mithras' birthday and the Yule
>tree is from the Northern Tradition. Easter was put in place instead of
>Ostara, which is a time of year when the land becomes fertile again, where
>the fertility symbols of eggs and bunnies are obvious. Of course there is
>All Saints Day which is a spin off of Samhain, which is the day where pagans
>remember there loved ones who have passed on. There are other examples, but
>I think that you get my point.
>
>Basically, if you give the people the same feast days, they'll let the
>government call it what they want. In modern times, we've seen this happen
>as well. About 15 years ago, Americans used to have a day off for George
>Washington and one for Abraham Lincoln. When we heard that one of them would
>be taken away, we were all angry. Then the news came that we would get a day
>off for Martin Luther King instead and we were all happy. We couldn't care
>less if they called it MLKing day or Lincoln, as long as we had a day off!
>
>Christianity is the perfect tool for an oppressive government. The bible
>says that the more one suffers on this earth, the greater the reward will be
>in heaven. This is a very defeatist belief, which is a great way of keeping
>people repressed and down. If the poor oppressed common folk believe that,
>then they'll never revolt.
>
>Pagans take personal responsibility for their actions. We are good people
>because we know that is the correct way to behave in life. We are not
>'coerced' into being good people by thoughts of eternal damnation in Hell.
>Many christians carry this fear with them throughout their entire life. And
>a part of Christianity that has always amazed me is that if a mass murderer
>converts to Christianity on his deathbed, then he will go to Heaven. And
>yet, I as a pagan will burn in Hell. Doesn't seem fair somehow!
>
>I have the utmost respect for Christians that go to church and read the
>Bible and so forth. But as a Public Pagan, I often am verbally attacked by
>people who have never read the bible, have not stepped in a church for years
>and only pray when a close relative is extremely ill. These types call us
>Satan worshippers and other bad names. I really have to laugh because those
>types have not studied their own religion and yet they presume to know mine.
>And Pagans are actively religious people. We study our chosen paths and our
>learning process never stops. Our Gods are a part of our everyday lives. We
>invoke them regularly and not only just once every 10 years when a relative
>is in a hospital.
>
>Vale!
>
>Diana Moravia Aventina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] THE WINNER OF THE LUDI VICTORIA MILITARY AWARD
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:56:41 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

At last we have the final results about the Ludi Victoria Military Award.

We have had a few problems as everyone can see with our award. There
is nothing special about this, as the Award was organised as a
,experiment, but the office of the Curule Aedile must transfere these
experiences. Although I think that it went well considering all. I
hope to see this event coming back next year, maybe in a even better
version.

Two judges had the possibility to do the actual judging. I hereby
thank Illustrus Marcus Minucius Audens and Honorable Alexander
Solaris Draco. Illustrus Marcus Minucius Audens has played a very
important role in getting this experiment to a successful result. I
also must thank Illustris Caius Flavius Diocletianus for assisting in
developing the project.

The result in points:

GNAEUS AEQUITIUS MARINUS
- Tactics : 8/10 points
- How Many Units Used : 0/5
- Efficacy of the units (Points allotted) : 5
- Military Language : 5/5
- Hypothetic Result : 3,5/5
------------------------------------------
Total : 21,5


GAIUS MARCIUS CORIOLANUS
- Tactics : 4/10
- How Many units Used : 0/5
- Efficiency of Units Points Allotted : -2/5
- Military Language : 3,5/5
- Hypothetis Result : 2/5
-------------------------------------------
Toral : 7,5

THE WINNER IS HONORABLE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!

The work of Marulinus is published at
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/victoria/lvma/marinus.htm


These are the comments of Marcus Minucius Audens:

"Both of your efforts as Commanders in this exercise were very
interesting, and creative. It was necessary for me to redraw each of
your manuvers (very much like a series of football plays) and also
compare speed and strike forces of each unit as they engaged
throughout you battle plans. This has also taken some time, and for
that delay I do apologize. However, I know of no other way in which
to insure that my evaluations are fair and balanced.

-----Commander Gnaeus Equitus Marinus;

Commander Marinus' comment about "room for a maniple exchange across
his weak center" is not clear to me. I can understand that he is trying
to deal with the "pinnng problem of the maniples in the real battle,
but his explanation is not clear, and I do not see how an exchange of
mantiples can prevent a premature weakness in his center.

Commander Marinus gives two intentions for the use of his legion, based
on different outcomes, which I like. Once a battle is engaged, the best
laid plans often come unglued.

Commander Marinus mentions a 20 minute period of time to keep his and
the African Cavalry engaged. I do not see a distance scale on the
drawing provided, and so I am wondering what he uses to document that
time / distance period.

Commander Marinus gives himself the consideration of breaking the
opposing line either with his legion or his cavalry, again two
possibilities, which I like, either way pointing to a withdrawal of the
Carthiginians.

----Tactics----0-10 Pts.--------(8);

----How Many Units Used (5 pts for one unit, 4 points for two units
etc.---- 0-5 Pts------(All units used--0);

----Efficiency of the Units (Power and Speed); These figures were
subtracted from each other at each indicated engagement:

5 to 4 =+1; 14 to 18=-4; 6 to 4=+2; 8 to 4 =+4; 12 to 10=+2; 8 to 8=0;

Points allotted---------(5);

----Military Language---0-5 Pts-------(5);

----Hypothetic Result---0-5 Pts-------(4);

Commander Marinus Total Points allotted---(22Pts.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Commander Gaius Marcius Coriolanus;

Commander Coriolanus does not provide any alternatives for the results
of his plans. This failure assumes that his plan will take place as
designed, wthout fail.

In three places Commander Coriolanus attacks units stronger than his
with the comment that the Romans will win. However, matching the speed
and wieght numbers against those attacks does not bear out his
assumption.

----Tactics---0-10 Pts------(4);

----How Many units Used (5 Pts for one unit, 4 Pts for two, etc.----0-5
Pts.------(All unts used --0);

----Efficiency of Units (Power and Speed); Thee points were subtracted
from each other at each indicated engagement:

5 to 4=+1; 13 to 10=+3; 6 to 10=-4; 6 to 6=0; 6 to 4=+2; 7 to 10=-3; 7
to 8= -1;

Points Allotted (-2);

----Military Language---0-5 Points------(3);

----Hypothetis Result---0-5 Points------(2);

Commander Coriolanus Total Points allotted ---(7)"


--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples..
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:00:28 -0000

Hey, do you think you could get together a collection of pagan texts
dealing with the low status of women? And animals....do you know of
any statements on how the ancient pagans thought of animals?

Also, did you see Quintus Fabius note on how the "dominate" still
worked, even though half of it stopped working? Incredible....50%
functioinality is a working system???

Nerva









--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 10/27/02 11:28:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > mscommunication@a... writes:
> >
> >
> > > Does anyone have any layouts or descriptions of the inside of
the
> > > average temple they could share? I'd be very interested in
seeing
> > > one. Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I have Hellenistic ones. Romans were similar.
> >
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
> >
> > Salve Fabi Maxime,
>
> Ah, a welcome change to the relgion debate. I'm getting writer's
> cramp and need a change. Please check out this impressive website I
> found with instructions on how to build a Roman temple. Its a model
> but one should be able to apply the ideas to the real thing as
> architects do.
> If I won a lottery I'd love to have this in my yard.
>
>
> http://www.hirstarts.com/temple/temple.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Yours respectfully,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples..
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:08:27 -0000

Forget the animals...I found what I was looking for. I was thinking
of Egyptian cats and found the ten thousand that had their necks
broken prior to mumification. Nothing to do with Rome.

On the matter the temples.. the site Paulinus posted is good!

As for the Jerusalem temple, I do not have any images or diagrams,
but maybe this description will help.

Imagine four courts. The outermost court is the Court of Nations.
Anyone, regardless of nationality could enter here. The next court
was the court of the women. Jemale Jews could go this far. At the
entrance to the Court of Women there were signs warning Gentiles not
to cross the threshold.

After the Court of Women was the Court of the Israelites, where all
male Jews could enter. Beyond this was the court of the Priests
{self explanatory} and then the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place,
aka Holy of Holies. Only the high priest once a year would enter
this small square room.

A replica of this temple would be cool, but I still think the idea of
actually rebuilding it on the site is daft.

Nerva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Disagreement with system failure in Rome's "fall."
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:12:14 -0000

Senator, as I asked on antoher topic, how can half a system working
qualify as a working system. Maybe I am misunderstanding something,
but that doesn't seem right to me.

Nerva







--- In Nova-Roma@y..., qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/27/02 11:59:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> hirtius75ch@y... writes:
>
>
> > The system (i.e. the Empire) destroyed
> > itself, in the end. Christianity on the other hand
> > managed to preserve some Romanitas, which then evolved
> > into our modern western civilisation
>
> And I disagree. There were four main reasons why the Dominate
fell, and two
> of those can be traced back to Principate with had nothing to do
with the
> system. Remember only half the Dominate fell, so the system still
worked.
> Valete
> Q. Fabius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples./ aNIMALS.
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:41:00 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:
> Forget the animals...I found what I was looking for. I was thinking
> of Egyptian cats and found the ten thousand that had their necks
> broken prior to mumification. Nothing to do with Rome.
>
> Salve Gai,

True enough, I saw the scrificed cat mummies on discovery last week.
Clean broken necks. All cultures including Judian - Christianity,
Paganism have used and abused animals. Look at everything from the
bullfighters in Ancient Crete, carnage of exotic animals in the
colosseum and the Dormouse recepie I posted in Coq and Coq and yes,
Christianity too. I fail to see how our relationships with animals
has anything to do with how benevolent the different religions are
from one another. Well said Gai.

Regards - Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] THE WINNER OF THE LUDI VICTORIA MILITARY AWARD
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:47:58 -0800 (PST)

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus writes:

> At last we have the final results about the Ludi
> Victoria Military Award.

[....]

> THE WINNER IS HONORABLE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!

Thank you Curule Aedile Fabius Quintilianus, for the
opportunity to engage in this exercise. It was quite
a challenge, and it brought home to me just how
difficult a problem Cannae posed for any Roman
commander.

My thanks also to the judges. I appreciate their
effort, and their perseverence to understand my
tactical plan which had to be stated within the 500
word limit.

Additionally, my thanks to my competition, who also
came up with a credible battle plan. You deserve, and
you have, my respect for entering the competition.

Finally, and most importantly, my thanks and esteem to
the Roman and Auxiliary soldiers who marched forward
into battle at a place called Cannae so long ago. You
have gone, but you are not forgotten.

-- Gn. Equitius Marinus

=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] For the New Rome...
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:08:23 -0000

There comes a new Library of Alexandria! I almost creamed myself
when I heard about this. I think it is my new life goal to make a
pilgramage to the library of Alexandria and set up camp somewhere in
its sacred halls. If this place were a temple, I'd be it's High
Priestess.

http://www.bibalex.gov.eg/

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Roman B&B [Was: Re: Land ]
From:	"cheng wah kuo" <chengwahkuo@hotpop.com>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:51:19 -0500

The cheapest land I know of is the terlingua ranch near big bend national
park.
-----Original Message-----
From: pompeia_cornelia [mailto:scriba_forum@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 21:49
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Roman B&B [Was: Re: Land ]


---Salve Amicus:

You raise a very good point here; once the land is purchased, there
will be much work to do in the line of Romanizing it....and it will
take a commitment of people to stay for a stretch and 'build' the
historical Roman Military Encampments, 'build' the historical
buildings and temples, and the like....unless we want to spend an
astranomical fortune, which, uhh, last time we checked, we don't have.

So, it is not merely a matter of us putting our 'money' where our
dreams lie, it is also a matter of weightedly applying research and
our own 'hands on' talents.

Pompeia


In Nova-Roma@y..., "Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@u...> wrote:
> I like that idea! A Roman villa resort could be a very good
> draw. Also perhaps a "dude ranch" legionary camp - the legions
> could maintain a working Roman camp, and guests could take on
> various roles to see what it might have been like to live
> in the 8th century AUC!
>
> TAS

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Digest No 233 On the subject of Temples..
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:11:39 -0500

Salvete,

On the subject of Temples..
See, Vitruvius' DE ARCHITECTURA
Books I-V
ISBN 0-674-99277-6

Valete, Lucius Equitius

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:02:58 -0000
From: "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Subject: On the subject of Temples..

Does anyone have any layouts or descriptions of the inside of the
average temple they could share? I'd be very interested in seeing
one. Thanks.

Lithia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Bestowing a Further Honor;
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:20:02 -0500

On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 08:42:10PM -0400, jmath669642reng@webtv.net wrote:

Salvete, Marcus Minucius Audens et Caeso Fabius Quintillianus:

> As Praefectus Fabrum of the Sodalitas Egressus, I hereby appoint Aedile
> and Senator Caeso Fabius Quintillianus to the position of my
> Beneficarius to serve with Beneficarius Strabo in the Sodalitas Egressus
> as my joint Assistants in the management of this Sodalitas.

My most sincere congratulations to both of you, and may you both benefit
from this association to an even greater degree than you expect. I
suspect that you will; in my experience, when people of good will and
understanding cooperate with each other, the results are often greater
than the sum of the individual parts.


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sed fugit interae, fugit irreparabile tempus.
But meanwhile, the irreplaceable time escapes.
-- Vergil, "Georgica"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples./ aNIMALS.
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 02:43:41 -0000

Well, I have a fondness for cats, and a little Egyptian Bast graces my
bookcase. I knew that the Egyptians mummified cats, but the
deliberate massacre of them for the express purpose of mumification
took me by surprise, especially considering a a mob had set on a Roman
for mistreating a cat.

Do you remember a letter from an annoyed Roman complaining about the
poor quality of tigers that had been arriving for use in the arena? I
have the documentary on the Roman Arena here somewhere, and it quotes
the letter and says who wrote it. Apparently, the demand for animals
in the games was causing a serious decline in wildlife in Northen Africa.

I wonder how many Israelies really want to bring back animal sacrifice
again, which is what will happen if this ultra-orthodox sect that
wants to rebuild the temple gets their way somehow. Well,
Christianity at least never had animal sacrifice.

Nerva









--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:
> > Forget the animals...I found what I was looking for. I was thinking
> > of Egyptian cats and found the ten thousand that had their necks
> > broken prior to mumification. Nothing to do with Rome.
> >
> > Salve Gai,
>
> True enough, I saw the scrificed cat mummies on discovery last week.
> Clean broken necks. All cultures including Judian - Christianity,
> Paganism have used and abused animals. Look at everything from the
> bullfighters in Ancient Crete, carnage of exotic animals in the
> colosseum and the Dormouse recepie I posted in Coq and Coq and yes,
> Christianity too. I fail to see how our relationships with animals
> has anything to do with how benevolent the different religions are
> from one another. Well said Gai.
>
> Regards - Quintus

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] PROUD TO BE A ROMAN "PAGAN!"
From:	Larry Freeman <larrythebear@askmamafreeman.com>
Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:10:36 -0500

Salvete!!!
That is also the main reason that I joined NOVA ROMA was because of the
RELIGIO ROMANA. For without it there can be no revival of the RESPUBLICA.
For the RELIGIO was what made ROMA truely great.
HAIL ROMA.
ROMA VICTOR SEMPER EST.
Valete!!!
Laurenicus Flavius Magus.

At 10:04 PM 10/27/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Salvete!
>
> > SALVETE OMNES! The main reason I joined Nova Roma was
> > because of the RELIGIO ROMANA!!! And I firmly believe
> > that what made Roma great was not only our Roman
> > virtues, BUT THE OLD REPUBLICAN FORM OF THE RELIGIO
> > and the CVLTVS DEORVM and devotion to the MOS
> > MAIORVM!!! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
>
> >>I agree with you 100%! The Religio Romana was the main reason I joined
> >>the Republic.G. Modius Athanasius
>
>Me three!! I agree with G. Modius Athanasius and Gaius Julius Julianus.
>I also found Nova Roma in my search for others who followed the Religio
>Romana.
>Valete,
>Diana Moravia Aventina
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 04:40:57 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...> wrote:
> Roman BriefpapierSalvete,
>...when Jesus was presented as the 'Son of God', it was a rather
trendy title 2000 years ago. Before Jesus, Alexander the Great was a
son of a God and I believe Buddha as well.

NERVA responds: Diana, before Alexander, and before Buddha, Israelite
Kings were enthroned with Psalms which in effect called him the Son Of
God. The phrase did develop in meaning of course, and originally
meant no more that God had "adopted" the reigning King. But the
origin of it in Christian circles was not derived from Alexander or
from Buddha, but from Judaic texts. {You are my son. Today I have
become a father to you}

<<Women did not have souls and later that was changed.>>

NERVA: That is incorrect. Nestorius, a Bishop did indeed teach women
had no souls---and he and his teaching were both condemned at an
ecumenical council.

<<Now it is only animals that fit into this soulless category, making
it easy for us to exploit them without guilt.>>

NERVA: Christianity never had animal sacrifice. Pagans did.
Christianity did not endanger wildlife through an insatiable appetite
for bestiariis to honor the shades of the dead. Roman paganism did.
I hope you are not trying to imply that classical paganism was somehow
"animal friendly".

<<Another (very smart) tactic of the Christians to convert people was
by renaming Pagan holidays into Christian ones.>>

NERVA: There is a myth popular among pagans that some alien race
called "The Christians" somehow entered Rome and proceded to "steal"
the holidays of other people.

The truth is that these Christians in Rome *were Romans* and all they
did was reapply their own holidays {which were already theirs by
culture they were raised in} to the religion they adopted. There was
no "stealing". Since they were born, lived, breathed, worked, and died
within the Roman world, they had as much right to their own accustomed
celebrations as any would-be "reconstructionist" or "neo-pagan" has
today.

<<Christianity is the perfect tool for an oppressive government. The
bible says that the more one suffers on this earth, the greater the
reward will be in heaven. This is a very defeatist belief, which is a
great way of keeping people repressed and down. If the poor oppressed
common folk believe that,then they'll never revolt.>>

NERVA: Actually, if you believe in something beyond this life, it is
not defeatist at all, because them the teaching means that your
suffering is not the end of the story. After all, did not Socrates
deem his execution as a possible good, if in the afterlife he would be
in pleasant conversation with the Greek heros of the past? Now if the
teaching is used out of it's context {which is plain to one who
actually studies the literature} as an excuse for inflicting hardship,
then is that the fault of the teaching, or the one misusing it?

<<Pagans take personal responsibility for their actions.>>

A very common feature of classical paganism was the belief in FATE.
Handy doctrine, isn't it? Screw up, or find yourself in a heap of
trouble, don't worry. It was your destiny. I believe the Stoics also
believed in fate. It makes the idea of personal responsibility a bit
hard to reconcile, when things are fated.

<<We are good people because we know that is the correct way to behave
in life. We are not 'coerced' into being good people by thoughts of
eternal damnation in Hell.>>

NERVA: Diana, I like you very much, so please do not take this as
anything more than a slight bit of irritability on my part, ok? But
come on now! {Wollops your head with a pillow}

The truth is you pagans have a couple of "behavioral motivators" of
your own, which are supposed to influence behavior through fear. One
such belief popular among pagans now is KARMA. "If you do something
naughty, it will come back to you!" Another related notion which
seems to be popular among pagan and "alternate" religions is
Reincarnation. "If you do badly or fail to attain a sufficient level
of spirituality, you may be re-born as something you do not want to be!"

So you pagans act so nobly simply because it is right? Well, maybe
you do yourself...but others do so either to avoid karma,
reincarnation, the wrath of the gods, all out of fear. And others do
so not to be good in and of itself, but to get GOOD KARMA, avoid
reincarnation {or at least get a good birth} and get the favor of the
gods. In this case, it is not goodness which motivates them, but the
hope of profit.

Getting back to supernatural terrors. This is the same tactic the
Pagan Numa Pompilious is supposed to have used when he, "judging it no
slight undertaking to mollify and bend to peace the presumptions and
stubborn spirits of this people...began to operate on them with the
sanctions of religion. At times also, he filled their imaginations
with religious terrors, professing that strange apparitions had been
seen, and dreadful voices heard; thus subduing and humbling their
minds by a sense of supernatural feats." {Plutarch, Life of Numa
Pompilius} And didn't the Etruscans have a nasty afterlife for the
wicked as well? The Egyptians certainly did...and those pagans even
had a spell to bribe the judges so even if you were wicked, you could
avoid getting devoured. As for the Romans, they also had a notion of
the dead going into the underworld to be judged by Eita and his wife
Proserpine. In the Roman conception of Hell, demons tortured souls by
throwing them into lakes of boiling gold, freezing lead, and iron
shards. Plato too discusses Hell as a punishment. I think it is in
The Republic. But maybe it was in another book.

And if you meant to imply that Christianity does not teach individual
responsibility, you are again quite mistaken. I have read the New
Testament texts more than once. Those books are full of exhortations
and warnings against a lazy, lax attitude, and one of the most blunt
statements is, "If a man will not work, then let him not eat".
It is not only in Christianity. Look at the Jewish texts also. For
example, in Deuteronomy when the deity tells the Israelites, "The law
I am giving you today is not too hard for you. It is not out of your
reach, that one must ask Who will go up to get it for us?" {I am
trying to quote from memory, so those may not be the most exact words.}

Diana, if you want to castigate those who "do not know their own
religion by try to inform me about mine", well and good. But I have
not seen from you or from the others much knowledge of the religions
you hate either. I am not a Christian, and I am not a pagan. But at
least I know the Christian and Jewish religious texts. Well, at least
I know them pretty well for a layman. And I have been exposed to both
Roman and non-Roman paganism, so I think I have at least a working
knowledge of their basic worldviews, though no expertise. To be
blunt, I have seen mo superiority in the pagans, moral or otherwise.
When I attended some Druid rituals as a guest, I saw people who were
just as sickly, just as screwed up i the head, stuck in destrcutive
relationships...in short, people no better than anyone else.

G. Cassius Nerva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: PROUD TO BE A ROMAN "PAGAN!"
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 04:57:53 -0000

Salve Laurenici,

All Nova Romans share, especially myself share your sentiment that
Religio Romano is
a foundation of the Res Republica along with its important virtues
and is a vital contribution to the Res Republica. Again, the
religion will not be infringed upon as many of us have sworn in the
oath of office.
What I would like to know is what this "emotional appeal" has to do
with the discussion of the good or evil of Judeo- Christianity that
we have been posting over the last few days. Some of the pagan sects
that I mentioned had some problems were the Celtic ones as well as
the Thugee cults in India that demanded human sacrifice, a situation
that Religio Romano did not tolerate in its empire. Nothing bad has
been expressed by anyone on Religo Romano. Would you please clarify
your position a little more.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Larry Freeman <larrythebear@a...> wrote:
> Salvete!!!
> That is also the main reason that I joined NOVA ROMA was because of
the
> RELIGIO ROMANA. For without it there can be no revival of the
RESPUBLICA.
> For the RELIGIO was what made ROMA truely great.
> HAIL ROMA.
> ROMA VICTOR SEMPER EST.
> Valete!!!
> Laurenicus Flavius Magus.
>
> At 10:04 PM 10/27/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >Salvete!
> >
> > > SALVETE OMNES! The main reason I joined Nova Roma was
> > > because of the RELIGIO ROMANA!!! And I firmly believe
> > > that what made Roma great was not only our Roman
> > > virtues, BUT THE OLD REPUBLICAN FORM OF THE RELIGIO
> > > and the CVLTVS DEORVM and devotion to the MOS
> > > MAIORVM!!! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
> >
> > >>I agree with you 100%! The Religio Romana was the main reason
I joined
> > >>the Republic.G. Modius Athanasius
> >
> >Me three!! I agree with G. Modius Athanasius and Gaius Julius
Julianus.
> >I also found Nova Roma in my search for others who followed the
Religio
> >Romana.
> >Valete,
> >Diana Moravia Aventina
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] 1. Persecutions
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 06:55:19 -0000

Salve Paulinus,

The other day you wrote, "The whole argument started with strong
criticisms against the Christian sects. It is the Christians and
single God believers who are criticized and put on the defensive in
this debate, not the pagans."

I agree with you. And I was particularly offended by remarks made by
Taurinus that those who do not follow his brand of religion are
"irrational" and "prideful". But it also makes especially humorous
the posts that say "I am PROUD to be a Pagan". Who is being
"prideful" now? :}

There are three "sore spots" with pagans, which explain some of
their ideas and behaviors such as those we have seen here recently.
Those three issues are the Roman persecutions of the Christians, the
fall of the Western Roman Empire, and the third is...well, I will wait
till then to say what it is. Let?s deal with each of these in turn.

THE PERSECUTIONS

Taurinus post on this subject {post 3661} is a model of myopic denial
which forces him to an absurd contradiction. He begins by claiming,
"The early christians were not persecuted and killed for their
religious beliefs; they were killed for breaking the law." But then
look at his summation: "...it {the persecutions} began with
christians making spectacles of themselves and basically committing
suicide by
breaking the law publically and then refusing to do as their judges
asked them and recant and just burn a token amount of incense.?

Recant? Recant what? If the Christians were not persecuted for their
religious beliefs, then what was there to recant? Pliny the Younger
and the Emperor Trajan give us an answer. While Governor of Bythinia
{111-113 CE} Pliny wrote to Trajan concerning proper procedure to deal
with Christians.
"Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as
Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated
these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I
interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with
punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed."
Trajan approves this policy: "You observed proper procedure, my dear
Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as
Christians...if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be
punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a
Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even
though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through
repentance." Trajan also specifies that Christians are not to be
sought out. A wise policy, given the enormous effort it would take to
root out Christians from among the whole populace. And Trajan also
wisely declares that anonymous accusations are not to be credited, for
obvious reasons. But the policy is quite clear. If you admit to
being a Christian, and you do not renounce your religion, and "curse
Christ" {Pliny} then you will be killed. Were the Christians killed
for their religion? Of course they were! For the only way to worship
the Roman gods was to deny his religion! Only the willfully blind
could fail to see this.

Were the Romans at this stage justified in believing the Christians to
be some dangerous, seditious sect?
Let?s see what Pliny discovered. "They {accused Christians and
ex-Christians} asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their
fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed
day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god,
and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit
fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to
return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was
their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but
ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased
to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I
had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the
more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female
slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but
depraved, excessive superstition."

The description of the religion as superstiton is a typical Roman
complaint. And it is comical, coming as it does from people who would
cut their hair on the 17th and 29th of a month to prevent headaches
and baldness, say "two" (duo) at the sight of a scorpion to prevent
it from stinging, spit in their urine, and read animal entrails. But
one might think that the torturing of women would reveal the
treasonous plots against the state. But all he found was "nothing
else but depraved, excessive superstition". Nothing else, eh? The
superstition referred to was probably the eucharist. If so, we have
the eucharist, singing hymns to their god, pledging not to comit
theft, adultery, false witnessing?this is not the stuff we should
expect of a treasonous cult. And it is worth noting Pliny?s reference
to Trajan?s order forbidding ?political associations?. Since the
Christians were not a political association, can they be blamed for
thinking the prohibition did not apply to them?

So, did the Christians deserve it? Well, according to the pagans,
there is absolutely no doubt. They did deserve it. According to
them, the Christians were guilty of cursing Rome and her gods,
refusing to worship the Roman gods and burn incense to them, and
generally being full of mischief. But why this hostile attitude from
the Christians? The pagans will say that it was their intolerance.
Now that is funny: kill someone for not denying his religion and
worshipping your gods, and then accuse your victim of intolerance!
That is a hoot!

The problem with the pagan argument is that they begin too late. They
seem to be claiming that the Romans were just friendly pagans and all
of a sudden these Christians pop up and begin disrespecting the
emperor and the gods of Rome. But this is not a fair picture. We
must go back earlier and see just what the Christian attitudes were.
Well then, let?s look at some more evidence which certain pagans here
conveniently forget to mention; the earliest extant Christian
documents. When one reads them, one may notice how un-hostile they
are to the Rome. The early Christians seem for the first several
decades to have genuinely appreciated the Roman state:
1} It is likely Rome that Paul refers to in First Thessalonians 2:7 as
the one thing which is controlling the threat of chaos in the world.
2} In Romans 13:1-7 the governmental powers are to be obeyed because
they are only a terror to the evil, and not to the good, and were
ordained by God.
3} The ?First Letter of Peter? 2:12-17 commands Christians to fear God
and honor the Emperor. It also states that governors and kings are to
be obeyed, and that their position is given them by God.
4} In the Gospels, we see more of the same. Pay Caesar what is due to
Caesar.
5} Jesus is said to heal a centurians slave. Personally, I doubt
miracle stories such as this, but the presence of the story is telling.
6} Pilate, though pictured as weak and threatened by the Priests {most
likely true, given the events of his governorship*} is not anxious to
condemn Jesus.
7} Jesus? statements concerning the destruction of the temple explain
the catastrophe as a judgement upon his own people and do not condemn
Rome. These passages are problematic however, but a fuller discussion
of them here is not appropriate.
8} In the Book of Acts, 18, 1-7 the Roman governor Gallio dismisses
complaints against Paul with impartial Roman justice.
9} In Acts 19, the Roman authorities are careful for Paul?s safety in
the face of a hostile mob.
10} In Acts 21 the Roman authorities rescue Paul from what might have
become a lynching.
11} In Acts 25 Paul, doubting the possibility of justice in Judea,
appeals to Caesar. And Porcius Festus obliges him. {I believe this
was a pre-arranged deal between Paul and Festus, for reasons given in
a previous post.}
12} And perhaps most important to note, when the Jewish nation
rebelled against Rome in 65, the Christians were not involved.

Now it is true that Romans are not depicted as good guys all the time
in these books. We see Roman soldiers beating Jesus and nailing him to
the cross. A local magistrate has Paul whipped, and is brought to heal
when Paul informs him of his Roman citizenship. But hatred and
unremitting hostility to Rome is simply not there. Instead, the
Christians seem to be happy with the Roman order and Pax Romana.

However, by the time the Book of Revelation was written, the attitude
had completely changed. Rome is now the Whore of Babylon. The Mother
of Harlots. Drunk with the blood of saints and martyrs. The broad
consensus is that Revelation was written sometime between 90 and 110
CE, with a good probablity of it being composed in the time of
Domitian. This makes it probably the last New Testament book to be
written. So what happaned to account for this sudden change of
attitude towards Rome?

Well, the first Roman persecution was that of Nero after the ?Great
Fire? of 64.
No doubt this soured the Christians attitude. However, I doubt this
was the final turning point. The general consensus among scholars
dates the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke to 65-85. {I favor 60 to
75 myself} and one would then wonder why the hatred of the Roman state
does not manifest itself in these books. But Nero?s persecution was
confined to the vicinity of Rome, and in the end, he was turned upon
and killed by his own. So it is likely that many Christians saw Nero
as an abberation, and his cruelty against them as his own mania, and
not the state itself.
What did turn the Christians against the pagan state was that which
Pliny and Trajan were writing about: The imposition of Caesar worship
and paganism upon the Christians. A Christian could not do this
without renouncing his religion, and that was exactly what the pagan
authorities were demanding. And when Christians could not do this,
the pagans declared war.

Now to be fair to Taurinus and his pagan friends, we should recognize
that his point of view, erroneous as it is, was the way the Roman
pagans of the time looked at the matter. We must also be fair and
remember that separation of religion and government is a modern idea,
and it would be hundreds of years before the Christian John Locke
beautifully expressed it in his 'A Letter Concerning Toleration' and
still longer before a group of Christians and Deists created such a
government in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. {As a deist myself, I take
some small pride in this} And yet the Romans cannot be completely
excused either. After all, the Jews were exempted from mandatory
paganism. Some Roman Emperor *could* have had the idea that all that
is needed is an oath of political loyalty and not a religious rite.
Some emperor or advisor *might* have had the wisdom to say to the
Christians, "Fine. Practice your silly religion. But just pledge you
will not be seditious to Rome, and make sure you pray for the safety
of the Roman state and the Emperor in your worship services, just as
we required the Jews to do in the Temple in Jerusalem.? But no...

Despite the desperate efforts of Taurinus and his kind to whitewash
and explain away, the facts remain. The Roman pagans drew blood
first. They attacked the Christians first, and the Christians
resisted. Nothing can change this. It came back to haunt the pagans
later. The pagan Government had created a precedent: Religious
Loyalty Equals Political Loyalty. And a few hundred years later, when
the Church came to power, they used the same policy, which the pagans
themselves had established: Religious Loyalty Equals Political
Loyalty. There is a saying among neo-pagans {who tend to believe in
karma} that goes something like this {I am trying to quote from
memory} "So mote it be, what thee shall do ten times shall come back
to thee".
Perhaps Theodosius was just the pagan?s Karma coming back to haunt
them. :} But whether it was karma or not, the Christians won the war
the pagans began. However, it would be a hollow victory, as the
empire in the west was coming to an end. And that is the subject of
the next post which will be part 2.

G. Cassius Nerva

*Pilate?s behavior in the gospels is believable and understandable,
considering the history of his administration. In the years before
the arrest of Jesus, Pilate had on at least three occassions misjudged
his subjects, and his behavior had caused the Jews to complain to Rome
each time. And on each occasion, Rome sided with the Jews against
Pilate! Pilate was on very thin ice, politically speaking. When the
enemies of Jesus said, "If you release him, you are not Caesar?s
friend", Pilate took the hint, and condemned Jesus. Pilate was
eventually recalled to Rome, never to return, after a stupidly
mismanaged affair which resulted in a massacre of Samaritans. When
this happened, Rome had had enough. Still, for all his problems,
Pilate must have had some ability, since he kept that post for ten
years. The prefects {later, Procurators} of Judea tended to be poor
administrators, and public relations disasters.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On religious beliefs
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:53:08 +0100

Salvete Diana et Omnes,

> I have the utmost respect for Christians that go to church and read the
> Bible and so forth. But as a Public Pagan, I often am verbally attacked by
> people who have never read the bible, have not stepped in a church for years
> and only pray when a close relative is extremely ill. These types call us
> Satan worshippers and other bad names. I really have to laugh because those
> types have not studied their own religion and yet they presume to know mine.
> And Pagans are actively religious people. We study our chosen paths and our
> learning process never stops. Our Gods are a part of our everyday lives. We
> invoke them regularly and not only just once every 10 years when a relative
> is in a hospital.

I am very pleased and impressed by your dedication to religion. You made really
good and important points here. The relative failure of the western world
concerning values like family, civility, honesty... is mainly the failure of
our religious system. People do not recognize themselves in such churches.
Paganism, imho, might have a bright future.

Valete,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On religious beliefs and persecutions
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:14:56 -0000

Salvete Gaius Nerva et omnes,

I think your points are also excellent, well thought out and
researched even if you are not a practicing Christian or pagan. Bravo!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] THE WINNER OF THE LUDI VICTORIA MILITARY AWARD
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:42:25 +0100

Salvete Gnaeus Equitius Marinus et Omnes,

> > THE WINNER IS HONORABLE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!

Congratulations!!

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Epigram contest
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:55:01 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!!

During the Ludi Plebeii (November 4-17), organised by
both aediles plebis, an epigram contest will be held!


Show us your poetic skills and write an epigram!


To participate in this contest you have to write an
epigram, composed of two or four verses, with the
following scheme:

A: 13-15 syllables
B: 11-15 syllables
B must be shorter than A
An epigram with four verses should consist of ABAB

Some examples:

MARTIALIS:
“Aspicis incomptis illum, Deciane, capillis,
cuius et ipse times triste supercilium,
qui loquitur Curios adsertoresque Camillos?
Nolito fronti credere: nupsit heri.”

SAMUEL TAYLOR COLERIDGE:
“What is an epigram? A dwarfish whole;
Its body brevity, and wit its soul.”

PRESTON:
“No humorist laughs at his own wheeze:
A snuff-box has no right to sneeze.”

“The alienist is not a joke;
He finds you cracked and leaves you broke.”

HILAIRE BELLOC:
“Of old when folk lay sick and sorely tried,
The doctors gave them physic, and they died.”

“But here's a happier age; for now we know
Both how to make men sick and keep them so.
The Devil, having nothing else to do,
Went off to tempt My Lady Poltagrue.”

“My Lady, tempted by a private whim,
To his extreme annoyance, tempted him.
When I am dead, I hope it may be said:
His sins were scarlet, but his books were read.”


The jury of this contest:
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Manius Constantinus Serapio

Following categories will be used in judging:
Roman theme – 10 points
Content: humour, cleverness, … - 10 points
Scheme – 5 points
Language – 5 points

To participate, send an email (with your epigram and
Nova Roma name) to consulromanus@yahoo.com, with
“EPIGRAM” in the subject line. Last day to submit an
epigram is November 10th.

Participate in this contest! A wonderful prize will be
granted to the winner:

The winner of this contest will receive this nice book
(from Amazon):
“A Garden of Roman Verse” (J Paul Getty Museum Pubns);
1998; Hardcover; 80 pages


We hope to see many people participating in this
wonderful contest!!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
***HORUM OMNIUM FORTISSIME SUNT BELGAE***

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples..
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 05:29:51 EST

In a message dated 10/27/02 5:01:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gcassiusnerva@cs.com writes:


> Also, did you see Quintus Fabius note on how the "dominate" still
> worked, even though half of it stopped working? Incredible....50%
> functioinality is a working system???

Wow. And I'm a professional writer...Geez what a faux pau when people cannot
understand what you are trying to say. I meant to say only 50% of the
Dominate fell. The other 50% endured for another 1500 years. The system was
not at fault.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Land Project, Call to Citizens
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:35:25 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

the Land Project attract a lot of citizens and we can read so many posts
concerning this.
Now, the Land Project needs some of your time!!
If you have any idea or comments, take the opportunity and post them at:

http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Land_Project/public/submission.html

Please participate, every idea or comment will be studied!!
Again, thank you for your commitment to this future but important project.

Valete,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] 1. Persecutions
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 05:43:40 EST

In a message dated 10/27/02 10:55:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gcassiusnerva@cs.com writes:


> Now it is true that Romans are not depicted as good guys all the time
> in these books. We see Roman soldiers beating Jesus and nailing him to
> the cross.

Umm point of order here. These were Roman Auxilia, not Romans. Unless of
course you are referring to the fact they are in the Roman army makes them
Roman. But they were not citizens. I had the same argument with the
history channel. I was pleased they saw it my way. Other then that, prey
continue Cassius Nerva.

Valete Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples./ aNIMALS.
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 03:08:46 -0800 (PST)

--- gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com> wrote:

SNIP
>
> I wonder how many Israelies really want to bring
> back animal sacrifice
> again, which is what will happen if this
> ultra-orthodox sect that
> wants to rebuild the temple gets their way somehow.
> Well,
> Christianity at least never had animal sacrifice.
>
> Nerva
>
Never?
I Wouldn't be too sure of that. Christanity started
out as a Jewish sect. In the Early days the Apostles
thought of themselves as Jews who had seen the
Messiah, not as members of a new faith. They continued
to worship at the Temple and Sacrafice was a part of
Temple worship. Since the Temple was destroyed before
Christanity had fully seperated itself from Judaism
it's very likely that at least some Christians
including ones that are now called Saints were taking
animals to the Priests to be sacraficed right up to
the time of the Jewish war.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] 1. Persecutions
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:09:58 +0100 (CET)

Salve Cassie, salvete omnes

Very well said! Thank you!

--- gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com> wrote:
<snip>
>*Pilate?s behavior in the gospels is believable and
>understandable,
>considering the history of his administration. In
the >years before
>the arrest of Jesus, Pilate had on at least three
>occassions misjudged
>his subjects, and his behavior had caused the Jews to
>complain to Rome
>each time. And on each occasion, Rome sided with the
>Jews against
>Pilate! Pilate was on very thin ice, politically
>speaking. When the
>enemies of Jesus said, "If you release him, you are
not >Caesar?s
>friend", Pilate took the hint, and condemned Jesus.
>Pilate was
>eventually recalled to Rome, never to return, after a
>stupidly
>mismanaged affair which resulted in a massacre of
>Samaritans. When
>this happened, Rome had had enough. Still, for all
his >problems,
>Pilate must have had some ability, since he kept that
>post for ten
>years. The prefects {later, Procurators} of Judea
>tended to be poor
>administrators, and public relations disasters.

Please note, that P. Pilatus is a saint (sic!) within
the Ethopian Church.

Valete bene,



=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] 1. Persecutions
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 03:35:10 -0800 (PST)

Salve,
Actually it wasn't the Romans that started the
persecutions of the Christians. The Jews started the
persecutions before the Romans took much intrest in
what was a first considered a heritical sect of
Judaism. Saul of Tarsus prior to his conversion was
quite active in this first wave of persecutions.

As for the Imperial Cult, Judaism was a Religio Licto
in Roma from the time of the Treaties with the
Macabian kings of Isreal. It had a long standing
aversion to giving devine Honors to a man. The Romans
weren't very sympathetic to this view, but they
accepted the Jews relectuance to make offerings to any
but thier God, and accepted prayers to the Jewish God
for the safety of the Emperor and the state in lieu of
offerings to the state.

>From the Roman viewpoint the Christians were allready
offering prayers to a man, Jesus of Nazarath. Not only
were they worshiping a man, but one who had been a
condemed criminal, even worse condemed for claiming a
title that several Rebels had used in inciting
uprisings against Roman rule. Worshiping a condemed
criminal, but refusing to make an offering to the
Imperial cult was viewed as insulting to the Emperor.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 06:23:38 -0000

On the subject of the Christian hell... I've read several reputable
texts stating that early Christians, and even Jesus himself believed
in reincarnation after death. I personally feel that the version we
have of Christianity now is about as different from ancient
Christianity as it is from ancient Paganism. And really, unless one
has a perfect copy of the original texts of the Bible and can
fluently translate Aramaic and ancient Greek (for the New Testament),
how is anyone to say they are an expert on the Bible? I'll believe
when I read it.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oh! One more! (I wish I could edit messages)
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 06:28:06 -0000

The early Christian beliefs were just as women-friendly as their
Roman-pagan counterparts of the day. The Christian God was
originally 'the god of slaves' and then 'the god of women and slaves'
and women took a very active part in it. There were actually women
priestesses in the early Christian churches.


I'd also like to note that I am neither Christian nor Pagan, though I
have been both and have found them both to be exactly the same thing.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples..
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:14:41 -0000

Salve Nerva,

Pulling my head from the virtual pillow that you put on my face :-)))
I would like to say that there are many books on ancient and modern
pagans viewpoints on animals. Off the top of my head, the authors Ted
Andrews, & John & Caitlin Matthews have books on shamanistic
practices in ancient times, which of course deals nearly entirely
with animals. There are also many books on native American
spirituality on Shamanism. There is a book company from England that
has many books on animals from a pagan viewpoint and its driving me
crazy because I can't think of the name! I'll have to wait until I
get home from work...

Salve!
Diana Moravia Aventina

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] 1. Pilatus Persecutions (background)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:59:29 EST

In a message dated 10/27/02 10:55:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gcassiusnerva@cs.com writes:


> Pilate had on at least three occassions misjudged
> his subjects, and his behavior had caused the Jews to complain to Rome
> each time. And on each occasion, Rome sided with the Jews against
> Pilate! Pilate was on very thin ice, politically speaking

The political situation at the time was very interesting. Pontius Pilatus
was a prefectus I.E. a glorified tax collector of the Emperor. The Jewish
select realized they were on thin ice concerning Rome after Judas' rebellion
in 6. The arrival of a Praefectus was good news. Granted he was there to
make sure the people paid their taxes, but he was there not as a Governor and
he did not have legiones backing him up. The closest Roman Governor was in
Syria while another Praefectus controlled Egypt.
There were four Legiones within a weeks marching distance, two in Syrian
Emesa,
two (or three) in Egypt. Judea and Galilee, one a province, the other a
client state, would appear be secure.
So the Jews had relative freedom, when compared to other Asian Minor
provinces.
Jesu bar Joseph changed all this. I am not going argue if he was son of a
god, or even if he slept with a prostitute, my only interest as a military
historian is how his presence destabilized the area.
Like John the Baptist he was a mystic, with the ability to collect followers.
Mystics are usual in Jewish history. Militant Mystics are a different
story.
I don't buy Nerva's thesis that Jews and Christians liked the Romans. They
were occupied, they were put down, they could not keep a standing army, and
25% of their production was going to the Imperator. Tiberius had raised
taxes, to pay for the revolt suppression in Germania and Pannonia. There was
to be another revolt in Asia Minor shortly.
Into this potential powder keg came a charismatic militant ( I use this term
like a Roman) teacher with mystical connections and the ability to incite
riot.
The Sahederan (sic) was no doubt rather upset. Things had been going so
well. As a council they had nominal control of Palestine, and now there was
this self styled "King of the Jews"
about to stir up trouble. So to keep the peace they reacted. Incidentally
they also kept their jobs.
I am often amazed how favorable the New Testament treated Pontius Pilatus.
If you read between the lines, it appears that Council browbeat Pilatus into
the condemnation. This is the guy who signs the death warrant, fulfilling an
ancient prophecy and birthing a whole new religion. If I had been Mark, Luke
or John I'd be on bended knee before him. Without the Martyrdom, there is no
climatic birth. There is no "rock." Damn straight I'd soft peddle his role
in the whole thing. The details, the semi mystical portents before the
condemnation is interesting as well. It is like Fortuna is over seeing the
whole thing. There are dreams, there are manifestations, and there is a
rebirth.
Even when I was a student at St. Augustines, I really felt sorry for our
harried Pilatus. He was between a Rock and Hard Place. Galilee was a client
state, but Judea was a Roman province. And a Roman Magistrate who was unable
to keep the region stable was not going to be a magistrate for long. Better
to scourge this teacher, and expel him from Palestine, (standard punishment
for inciting riot) and be done with it.
This raised a problem. The Council wanted him dead, and out of their life,
not expelled, but they didn't have the ability to do it. Like most
historical mystics, this guy had an armed following. It would make sense
that no assassin was going to get near him.
So it fell to Pilatus. Herod Antipas declared that he attempted rebellion,
likely slave rebellion, and Pilatus responded by the standard punishment for
rebellion ringleaders, the punishment stolen from the Carthaginians,
crucifixion.
The trail was brief. So brief that is glossed over in the bible. In fact
the New Testament collapses time and has the whole thing take place in two
days. This to me is astounding.
He is arrested on Passover eve, and killed on following day. Yet we know
from account that he was sent to Antipas, scourged, condemned, and killed.
Most people live on the cross for days, he's dead in three hours.
A scholar once believed that there was year difference in between the arrest,
trial, and punishment. That would explain the time line. I don't believe
that at all. I think that we are reading an edited convention, in symbolic
language. I think the whole thing took two weeks.
The Client King's condemnation of he as a slave revolt leader would be a
powerful convincing argument, and I'm sure some of his followers were rounded
up, tortured, and confessed his guilt. (Remember how scared the apostles all
were, and how they were hiding out?)
After the guilty verdict he was imprisoned, and was so weak from malnutrition
that he was unable to carry his cross piece, (not the cross itself) and once
died from shock to the system. After weeks or months of imprisonment, that
was a logical conclusion. I'm leaving the rest, since now it becomes a
matter of faith.

How do I know this to be a fact? I don't. But it follows logic. We do it
all the time in scripts.
Look at Dick Wolf's Law and Order. The first half hour is the investigation,
the second the trial. And actually all we see is the high points. The
drudgery, the tedious parts are edited out. They have to be. We'd lose the
audience. Television collapses time. So I believe does the bible.

The Historical Pilate.
Who was Pontius Pilatus? Besides a personal friend of the Emperor,
(Suetonius) we know from Josephus that he had problems handling populaces.
Besides the Messiah incident he heavily handed put down riots due to
religious fervor, and when he thought that the Samaritans gathering at Mt
Gerizam was going lead to another revolt, he with the aid of Antipas' troops
crushed it, circa 36. This lead to a protest from the Sarmatians to the
Imperial Governor in Syria, Lucius Vitellius, who suggested his recall. His
friend the emperor now dead, he returned to Rome and disappears from history.
Josephus account of the period covered, and the bible are conflicted.
Nothing can be confirmed.

His family was of Samnite origin based on his name. The only archeological
proof we have of his existence is an inscription recovered in Syria.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] -Allow me to introduce myself - Gallus Minucius Iovinus!
From:	"Jonas Nilsson" <xkrull@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:22:26 +0100

Salve honorable citizents of Nova Roma!


My Name is Jonas Nilsson, but in Nova Roma I've been approved the name
Gallus Minucius Iovinus. I'm 20 years old and live in the northern parts of
Sweden. I'm studying to become a teacher in history, geography, religion,
political science and music (Although I've so far only studied music and is
currently studying history).

I'm a close friend of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and he was the one who got
me interested in Nova Roma.

I am honoured to be part of Illustris Marcus Minucius Audens Gens and I
really appriciate his friendly and inviting attitude towards myself.

Since I'm studying history I would really like to understand more about the
organisation of the Roman system of goverment and I think that Nova Roma
might be a great way to better understand this.

My main interest in history, is military-history and I hope that I may learn
a lot about the Roman military in Nova Roma and that I in the future may
contribute to this subject.

I have studied music for 3 years and this is one of my greatest interest. My
main instrument is guitar, but I also play piano and sings.
I would be really pleased to learn more about the Roman music and hopefully
I will be able to contribute with something to this subject in Nova Roma as
well.

Another one of my interest is rolegames/interacitve theater and I try to
practice this as often as I can, although it's not as often as one might
want ;)

Since I'm a musician, love theater and really like to draw and to paint I
would be very glad to learn more about all the arts of ancient Rome.

This might have been a brief description of myself, but I hope that You have
recived some kind of picture of me. If You have any qestions You can reach
me on the following email: xkrull@hotmail.com

--
Vale

My best regards,

---Gallus Minucius Iovinus---



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] -Allow me to introduce myself - Gallus Minucius Iovinus!
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:57:22 +0100

Jonas Nilsson wrote:
> My Name is Jonas Nilsson, but in Nova Roma I've been approved the name
> Gallus Minucius Iovinus. If You have any qestions You can reach
> me on the following email: xkrull@hotmail.com

Salve, Galle Minuci Iovine.

I'm quite sure you will help energise not only provincia Thule but all
of Nova Roma with your presence. I am glad to see you in our midst, and
I wish to congratulate you and your paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens
on your adoption into his gens. I feel confident that you will make him
proud, as you will learn of and add to the honour and glory of your
gens.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	"Jonas Nilsson" <xkrull@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:37:13 +0100

Salve honorable citizents of Nova Roma!


My Name is Jonas Nilsson, but in Nova Roma I've been approved the name
Gallus Minucius Iovinus. I'm 20 years old and live in the northern parts of
Sweden. I'm studying to become a teacher in history, geography, religion,
political science and music (Although I've so far only studied music and is
currently studying history).

I'm a close friend of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and he was the one who got
me interested in Nova Roma.

I am honoured to be part of Illustris Marcus Minucius Audens Gens and I
really appriciate his friendly and inviting attitude towards myself.

Since I'm studying history I would really like to understand more about the
organisation of the Roman system of goverment and I think that Nova Roma
might be a great way to better understand this.

My main interest in history, is military-history and I hope that I may learn
a lot about the Roman military in Nova Roma and that I in the future may
contribute to this subject.

I have studied music for 3 years and this is one of my greatest interest. My
main instrument is guitar, but I also play piano and sings.
I would be really pleased to learn more about the Roman music and hopefully
I will be able to contribute with something to this subject in Nova Roma as
well.

Another one of my interest is rolegames/interacitve theater and I try to
practice this as often as I can, although it's not as often as one might
want ;)

Since I'm a musician, love theater and really like to draw and to paint I
would be very glad to learn more about all the arts of ancient Rome.

This might have been a brief description of myself, but I hope that You have
recived some kind of picture of me. If You have any qestions You can reach
me on the following email: xkrull@h...

--
Vale

My best regards,

---Gallus Minucius Iovinus---


_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 1. Pilatus Persecutions (background)
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:36:48 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/27/02 10:55:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> gcassiusnerva@c... writes:
>
Salve Fabi et omnes,

I have something else to add here about Pilate.

> Pontias Pilate had been appointed by the Usurper and anti- Jewish
Sejanus. Sejanus as you remember was put in charge of Rome while
Tiberius was convalessing in Capri. He wiped out some of the royality
trying to take over Rome. He was eventually thwarted and killed along
with countless others. When the Jewish - friendly Tiberius returned,
Pilate was on very thin ice politically. I am sure Tiberius did not
forget who had appointed him. Delegations of Jews went to Rome to
complain that Pilate 1) Blasphemed Judiasm by putting the Roman
Standards in the Temple area, 2) Expropriated funds from the Temple
to build an aquaduct system into Jerusalem 3) Harshly put down a
minor rebellion the could have been handled by other means. By the
time Jesus' trial came along Pilate was on extremely thin ice
politically and to be honest with you, fearing for my career and
life, I may have done the same. Eventually Pilate was run off from
his posting after Rome recieved many further complaints from the
Jewish authorities. I always felt this situation was a big factor. In
later times one of the great Barbarian Germanic Kings is known to
have said "I would have stood up, freed Jesus and killed those Jews
who would interfere in my judgement!" Pilate, if brought ahead in
time would have told him - ah, but one must know how to manuver
around a sticky political situation in order to survive sir!"

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Emperor Worship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:07:51 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

I have a question to bring up that I hope one of Our honored high
priests or those who are more scholarly on Religio Romano might
address.

1)I see Religo Romano was related to the earlier Greek religion. Was
deification of a human being such as a political leader done in
Greece eg. was Alexander the Great made a God?

2 In Ancient Rome was deification of a living human really part of
Religio Romano. Augustus Caesar who was really great and really Rome
in my opinion, never asked to be deified and had no say in the matter.
When some of the other infamous Emperors came along were they in fact
for real as far as the Religo was concerned or were they actually
false in terms of the religious theology?

3) If they were not really gods as far as the Ancient Romans were
concerned then perhaps the persecutions were unfair. The government
of Rome would then asking them to worship a few types Idi - Amin
style meglomaniacs who were blaspheming their own Religio Romano and
Roman virtues by their excesses, cruelty and debauchery anyway.

As previously said by Nerva, the Jews were exempted from this worship
but there was a terrible riot and heavy loss of life in Alexandria
(nothing new there) when Caligula demanded that his statue be placed
at some Jewish temple.

I would really appreciate to hear some thoughts on this matter.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Relgious Beliefs: Note from Praetor
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:58 +0000

Maybe I overstated the "abuse", but that is only because the pagans are
much more open minded, and their threshold of tolerance much higher, and
would not take an offense at the slightest of remarks. And that says much.

No, I am not going to engage in who said this and who said that. You
know very well the contemptuous manners of some when referring to pagan
practices. If we'd talk about Mary as we often talk about Venus, there
would be many people upset, but nobody minds it and rightly so. Mary is the
mother of God would protest the Christians, but to the Pagans Venus is God
herself.

Listen, I am not a pagan, I am not a Christian, and I don't care for
dogma. For that matter, I don't think that Roman religion had dogma, and
dogma is a judeo-christian concept.

It is very disheartening to see the viciousness that comes out sometimes
in this forum. If you say hello to people you have to watch out how you say
it or they'll jump all over you. Comitas lacking around here. Very
unroman. And to that I say, get a life people.


Galerius Peregrinator.



>From: "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Relgious Beliefs: Note from Praetor
>Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:16:46 -0000
>
>"...the pagans have been taking abuse too."
>
>I have seen no abuse whatsoever of the pagans here. Could you point
>out the abuse in question, in the event that I missed it?
>
>Nerva
>
>
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: citizenship
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:31:39 -0000

Welcome to the brotherhood! :-) SOmetimes, all we need to do is ask
others fo a little assist, and whoomp! Problem solved! :-)

Publius Tarquitius Rufus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@a...> wrote:
> Wow! Thank you all for your offers and support. Before checking
the
> boards today, I had received an email from pater Cassius offering a
> place in his gens, and I accepted the offer. I am now officially a
> Nova Roman citizen! Woo!
>
> Anyway, thanks again, and I really hope that this problem is
resolved
> for future applicants.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lithia Cassia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Temples
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:41:18 -0500 (EST)

Mistress Aventina;

I am afraid that I do not have at my command the amount and detailed
documentation offered by Senator Maximus in regard to the subject under
discussion. However, perhaps the following reference and except from
that reference will yield to you some small modicum of information"

Reference:

"The Roman Occupation of Britain," Haverfield, Oxford University Press,
1924

The book is a compilation and edited version of the six lectures
delivered by Professor F. Haverfield to the Oxford University in 1907.
While the material is somewhat dated, perhaps it may be of some value to
you.

=====================================

"--------Before the Claudian conquest, the Britons can hardly have
possessed large structures in stone, and the provision of these
necessarily came with the Romans. The "fora" bascilicas, and public
baths of these Roman towns, followed Roman models and resembled similar
buildings in other provinces. The ruins at Wroxeter are still
sufficiently imposing (PLATE III -- The Baths and Basilica at Wroxeter
-- (1), and the ground plans revealed by the spade at Silchester,
Caerwent, and elsewhere show a capacious "forum" or market-place on the
Italian plan, with a Italian-looking basicilica annexed to it. (Figure
41 -- Ground Plan of the Forum, Silchester -- (2).---------."

"--------In this basilica or town hall, the local "ordo" would meet to
discuss and transact the business of the canton. Occasionally the
temples were of the classical type. That seems to have been the case
with the one unearthed at Wroxeter in 1913 (3) as with that at Lyden in
Gloucestershire (4), and nothing could well suggest such architechture
more strongly than do some of the fragments which are believed to have
belonged to the temple of Sul Minerva at Bath (PLATE V -- Corinthian
Capitol, and Part of Column From Bath). As a rule, however, in both
town and country, the temples are on something more of a local pattern.
They consist generally of a small "cella" or shrine, square or nearly
square, with a roofed portico or collonade running around all of it's
four sides, and an entrance, usually from the East; the building often
stands in a large irregular enclosure. This type of temple occurs at
Silchester and Caerwent (Fig 42--(5) and on many other rural sites; it
occurs also in Northern Gaul, and as far East as the Rhine. (6) It
differs from the ordinary classical type, and is taken by good
authorities to be of Celtic origin; It may however, be a variation from
the classical type, or even an amalgamation of classical and
native.-----------------"


(6)--For references see "Romanization of Roman Britain". Page 37,
foot-note I;

(5)--Both of these structures are nearly square (Caerwent being 32 x 39
ft, with the inner "Cella" being a square structure about 18' x 18'.) At
Caerwent, one side of the "cella" is rounded, on the side opposite the
temple entrance. The area behind the rounded part of the "Cella" is
noted as the "Cloister." At Silchester the temple is somewhat smaller
(32' x 27') and the "Cella" again centered in th temple is a dimunitive
12' x 9'. There appears to be a step at the top 1/3rd of the "Cella"
and like Caerwent the Cloister is marked as the area behind the side of
the "Cella" opposite to the temple entrance, No directional orientation
is indicated.

(4)--So also apparently withthe templerecently discovered under the
Norman castle at Colchester. "The proportions tally exactly and the
actual dimensions very closely with those of the Maison Carr'ee at Nimes
-- "Royal Commission on Historical Monuments, Essex Inventory, iii, Page
25;

(3)--See J.P. Bushe-Fox in "Excavations at Wroxeter In 1913," and F.
Haverfield in "Roman Britain in 1913" / F. Haverfield in "Roman Britain
in 1914" both in the ("British Academy Supp. Papers.);

(2)--This diagram shows a square structure, with the Forum taking
approximately 2/3rds of the square and the Basilica about 1/3rd. The
forum has aambulatory on three sides. Then there are a series of small
rooms or alcoves on the hree sides with access to the outside ambulatory
and to the outside of the forum as well, in only one place at the
southern side of the Forum. There is an interior three sided ambulatory
as well between the form wall and the alcoves. The main entrance
appears to be in the eastern side of the Forum, and leads directly
through the outside ambulatory, the alcoves, and the inside ambulatoy
into the main entrance to the Forum. The forum is oriented to the North
with the two North / South sides meauring approx. 145 ft, and East West
sides 130 ft. The Basicilica occupies the remaining 1/3 rd of the
square and it also is riented to the North, with the main area
(Bascillica) a narrow rectangal, with a "Trinune" at either end rounded
like a Christian Nave. There is a line of rooms along the west wall.
The northern most of which is labeled the "Hall." Milddway down this
side is the "curia", (also rounded as the "Tribunes", and there is an
ambulatory on the Northern and Western sides of the structure outside of
the line of rooms.

(1)--This photogragh shows a badly weathered ruin of stone with a large
central structure peritrated by a low rectangular entrance (???) and
perhap[s a window or additional wntry place to the right of that. In
the foreground are the ruins of walls and two prominent examples of the
Roman arch.

======================================

I offer this information for your use as you see fit. As has been noted
on this list, I do not have a Doctorate, nor have I published
extensively on this subject, however, I find the subject of interest,
and since you have inquired, I thought that such might be of interest to
you as well. This is certainly not meant as an answer to all such
questions but the referencs and comments herein may serve to point the
way to a more learned, and academic set of resources.

I anticipate in the future that perhaps I shall be able to get together
with any who may be interested, under the guidance of the Academia
Thule, and share some futher ideas regarding the architecture of the
Roman world both in the center of the Empire and in it's distant
provinces.

There is also information on the ground plans of Christain churchs in
Roman towns in Silchester, Africa and Asia Minor, should you interested.


--------Beneficarius -- Tribunus Laticlavius Pompeia Strabo------------

Would you be so kind as to place this above information in the archives
of the Sodalitus Militarium and the Sodalitas Egressus for future
possible reference.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Praefectus Architechturas -- Sodalitas Militarium -- Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Relgious Beliefs: Note from Praetor
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:40:05 +0000

Salve Hirti:

The primitive church, whose faith was of a much firmer consistence,
delivered over, without hesitation, to eternal torture the far greater part
of the human species. A charitable hope might perhaps be indulged in favour
of Socrates, or some other sages of antiquity, who had consulted the light
of reason before that of the Gospel had arisen. But it was unanimously
affirmed that those who, since the birth or the death of Christ, had
obstinately persisted in the worship of the daemons, neither deserved nor
could expect a pardon from the irritated justice of the Deity. These rigid
sentiments, which had been unknown to the ancient world, appear to have
infused a spirit of bitterness into a system of love and harmony. The ties
of blood and friendship were frequently torn asunder by the difference of
religious faith; and the Christians, who, in this world, found themselves
oppressed by the power of the Pagans, were sometimes seduced by resentment
and spiritual pride to delight in the prospect of their future triumph.
"You are fund of spectacles," exclaims the stern Tertullian, "except the
greatest of all spectacles, the last and eternal judgment of the universe.
How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many
proud monarchs, and fancied gods, groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness;
so many magistrates, who persecuted the name of the Lord, liquefying in
fiercer fires than they ever kindled against the Christians, so many sage
philosophers blushing in red-hot flames with their deluded scholars; so many
celebrated poets trembling before the tribunal, not of Minos, but of Christ;
so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings;
so many dancers..". But the humanity of the reader will permit me to draw a
veil over the rest of this infernal description...

Edward Gibbon






>From: "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Relgious Beliefs: Note from Praetor
>Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:10:01 +0100 (CET)
>
>Salve Gaie, salvete omnes
>
>--- Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
><gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> wrote:
><snip>
> > Since the christians undermined and
> > eventually destroyed
> > Rome and the classical world which we are trying to
> > revive, that should be
> > understood.
>
>I disagree. The system (i.e. the Empire) destroyed
>itself, in the end. Christianity on the other hand
>managed to preserve some Romanitas, which then evolved
>into our modern western civilisation.
>
>I do understand a certain amount of
>*christian-bashing* here, and frankly, I don't mind.
>But please be careful with statements like "christians
>undermined [...] Rome", because it sounds a bit like
>the "jewish and freemasonic conspiracy" etc. pp...
>
>Valete bene,
>
>=====
>A. Hirtius Helveticus
>------------------------------
>paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
>http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
>------------------------------
>Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
>icq: 155762490
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>
>Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
>Möchten Sie mit einem Gruß antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de


_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A response to Nerva: Paganism and Religion
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:52:00 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:



> NERVA responds: Diana, before Alexander, and before Buddha,
Israelite
> Kings were enthroned with Psalms which in effect called him the Son
Of
> God.


So? They weren't the first culture to give that title to people, nor
were they the only ones. It's a common practise worldwide to
attribute divinity to kings.


> <<Women did not have souls and later that was changed.>>
>
> NERVA: That is incorrect. Nestorius, a Bishop did indeed teach
women
> had no souls---and he and his teaching were both condemned at an
> ecumenical council.


It's pretty pathetic when you have to have a council to stop people
from believing that women don't have souls. Such an absurd idea never
even occurred to the rest of the mature spiritual world- such a
outrageous notion was and still is a product of the spiritual
blindness of christian and judaic worldviews.


> NERVA: Christianity never had animal sacrifice.


No, they just killed people for not believing according to the status
quo.


Pagans did.
> Christianity did not endanger wildlife through an insatiable
appetite
> for bestiariis to honor the shades of the dead.



Evidence for endangerment of wildlife is found where?



Roman paganism did.
> I hope you are not trying to imply that classical paganism was
somehow
> "animal friendly".



She (Diana) wasn't implying that at all. But at least pagans thought
that animals had some spiritual destiny, and were sacred things, and
not just fleshy machines placed here by some monstrous "god" for "men
to use" as they saw fit.



> NERVA: There is a myth popular among pagans that some alien race
> called "The Christians" somehow entered Rome and proceded to "steal"
> the holidays of other people.


It's not a myth; it's exactly what happened.


> The truth is that these Christians in Rome *were Romans* and all
they
> did was reapply their own holidays {which were already theirs by
> culture they were raised in} to the religion they adopted.



No, when they became christians, they were told to not consider
themselves Roman anymore- They belonged to heaven alone. Justin
himself discusses this. And she wasn't talking about Roman christians
from the early period. She was talking about the later power brokers
who gained absolute power and dipped to underhandedness and even
violence to force people to be christian.



> There was
> no "stealing". Since they were born, lived, breathed, worked, and
died
> within the Roman world, they had as much right to their own
accustomed
> celebrations as any would-be "reconstructionist" or "neo-pagan" has
> today.


They DID steal these holidays, because they took out of them the
original and holy meaning and contxt and replaced them with the
contrivance that we now call "christianity". You don't see
us "reconstrucionists" taking what we know of roman pagan holidays
and mixing foreign ideas into it- (especially ideas like christianity
that are HOSTILE to what the old ways stood for) -to do so would STOP
you from being a reconstructionist and it would also destroy any
claim you had to the integrity of the "holy day".



>
> NERVA: Actually, if you believe in something beyond this life, it
is
> not defeatist at all, because them the teaching means that your
> suffering is not the end of the story.




Yes, but there is a LARGE difference in the way christians see
this "life" and how the afterlife relates to it. To them, this world
is bad, sinful, polluted, and their entire emphasis is on the
afterlife- and their fondest hope is for "god" to come and destroy
this world, kick evil's ass, and bring them to their "new jerusalem"
reward. This is a harmful way of thinking- it makes them ignore the
needs of this world, both in themselves, and in the world at large,
in favor of preparing for the "better" world to come- I can assure
you that Socrates (whom you mention below) did not ignore this life
or consider it "fallen" and sit around drooling about his ideas of a
better "afterlife".

Telling people that they had to obey their lords and obey the laws of
the church and man (even when those laws were oppressive and corrupt
and designed to keep the powerful in power and the peasants in the
field) and for their obediance, they would have "mansions" in heaven
and "streets of gold" IS exactly how christianity manipulated and
defeated people. Lying to someone who is suffering and telling them
that they will get a reward for it IS about as low as you can go.

NOBODY will be rewarded for suffering. If there is reward beyond this
human existance, it is based on active deeds and insight and bravery,
not passive suffering and cowardice or just following the status quo
herd. But of course, the last thing that christian rulers wanted
people doing was feeling personally powerful, or bettering themselves.



After all, did not Socrates
> deem his execution as a possible good, if in the afterlife he would
be
> in pleasant conversation with the Greek heros of the past? N


Read what I said above.



>Now if the
> teaching is used out of it's context {which is plain to one who
> actually studies the literature} as an excuse for inflicting
hardship,
> then is that the fault of the teaching, or the one misusing it?



If the teaching had not been there, then that mis-user could not have
misused it. I say that both the teaching and the misuser are to
blame.

What you are doing is saying we should allow these harmful teachings
to exist, and blame the mis-user; which is the typical christian
apologist attitude- but in the REAL world, it just means that
generations of MORE people will come along and continually misuse it
and hurt themselves and others, and we will GO ON protecting the
wicked source of their misuse, and keep saying "oh, it's not the
writing, it's the people who are misusing it..."



> <<Pagans take personal responsibility for their actions.>>
>
> A very common feature of classical paganism was the belief in FATE.
> Handy doctrine, isn't it?


It's actually not handy at all- it is quite clear that you know
nothing about it. If you studied Fate at all, you would know that it
wasn't an excuse not to take responsibility at all- it was a simple
acknowledgement of the fact that SOME forces are greater than we, and
some events are out of our control, BUT YOUR OWN CHOICES and ACTIONS
are NEVER totally out of your control. Some things are Fated, and you
are in the midst of your own Fate and the Fate of the world, but you
ALWAYS have choices to make on your personal level.

One of those choices, as the Stoics taught, was to make the CHOICE to
REALIZE that whatever happens to you should be accepted; that every
twist of Fate was another opportunity for you to deepen your own
personal part that was being played in the unraveling of time and
events- and this was something that YOU had to accept and take
responsibility for.

Understanding Fate led to a certain inner peace, and made decisions
and responsibility taking easier. But Fate in NO WAY exempted you
from responsibility for anything. It DEMANDED that you take your
fated responsibilities.



> NERVA: Diana, I like you very much, so please do not take this as
> anything more than a slight bit of irritability on my part, ok? But
> come on now! {Wollops your head with a pillow}


That's real mature.


> The truth is you pagans have a couple of "behavioral motivators" of
> your own,



First off, "we pagans" are not one unified group of people, so stop
talking as though we were- we never have been, at any time in
history. Once again, I get the feeling that you are speaking without
knowing what you are talking about.


> which are supposed to influence behavior through fear. One
> such belief popular among pagans now is KARMA.


NO SERIOUS pagan of any reconstructionist pagan religion, whether it
be the recon Germanic faiths (Asatru) or the Religio Romana, or the
Celtic Reconstructionists, believes in KARMA- that is a HINDU
concept, which is only to be found in Buddhism, Hinduism, and the new-
age pagans (read: wiccans) of the modern world. How dare you
insinuate that all pagans believe in such things! Thank you for not
understanding the first thing about us and wrapping us up in your
amazing outsider way.



> "If you do something
> naughty, it will come back to you!"


I don't believe this at all, and I don't know any pagans who do.



> Another related notion which
> seems to be popular among pagan and "alternate" religions is
> Reincarnation. "If you do badly or fail to attain a sufficient
level
> of spirituality, you may be re-born as something you do not want to
be!"



Once again, I think that you are mistaking us for non-traditional new-
agers. I'd like it if you stopped now.



> So you pagans act so nobly simply because it is right? Well, maybe
> you do yourself...but others do so either to avoid karma,
> reincarnation, the wrath of the gods, all out of fear.


Wrong again. Like the fine Lady who originally said this statement, I
act nobly because I KNOW that it is in accord with universal Harmony,
and NOT out of ANY KIND of fear. There is no reward for me doing it;
there is no punishment (as christians think of it) for me NOT doing
it. I do it because it is the duty of the essential human to act
nobly. SO DO THE OTHER PAGANS I KNOW. I understand that it is hard
for a person like you to understand decent, no-strings attached good
behavior, but that's the way it is.


And others do
> so not to be good in and of itself, but to get GOOD KARMA, avoid
> reincarnation {or at least get a good birth} and get the favor of
the
> gods.


Re-read what I said above. It still stands. I court the favor of the
Gods because they are companions in creation; because they can offer
help to those who know how to approach them with sincerity, belief,
and honor. But it is not fear of them or desire for their rewards
that leads me to act "good". THE SAME GOES FOR THE OTHER PAGANS I
KNOW.


>And didn't the Etruscans have a nasty afterlife for the
> wicked as well?


No, they had a nasty afterlife for most everyone. They are not
relevant to this discussion.


> The Egyptians certainly did...



No, they didn't. They had no hells, only oblivion for the wicked. Non-
existance.


and those pagans even
> had a spell to bribe the judges so even if you were wicked, you
>could
> avoid getting devoured.


If you actually read into pagan metaphysics, and didn't just sit
around trying to dis-prove them or disparage them in favor of your
obviously christian-slanted apologetics, you'd see that the "judges"
of the dead (the Shemsu Heru) in Egyptian mythology were aspects of
the Soul of the dead person- and the "confession" was a confession to
the heart or the self- which is why it was fair and why all was
revealed- you cannot bribe those judges, because you cannot lie to
yourself. The "bribe" spell you speak of was designed to alleviate
your OWN guilt, and therefore better your heart by making it lighter
when it was resolved in the Underworld.



> As for the Romans, they also had a notion of
> the dead going into the underworld to be judged by Eita and his wife
> Proserpine.


Yeah? So?


>In the Roman conception of Hell, demons tortured souls by
> throwing them into lakes of boiling gold, freezing lead, and iron
> shards.


Again, quite metaphorical descriptions to those who understand the
subtlety of it all.



> Plato too discusses Hell as a punishment. I think it is in
> The Republic. But maybe it was in another book.


And of couse, what can I say there except WHO CARES? Plato was a
freak and a Grandstander. Parmenides rules!



> And if you meant to imply that Christianity does not teach
>individual
> responsibility, you are again quite mistaken.


No, she isn't. The functions of scapegoats (like jesus) is precisely
that- to take your misdeeds from you and "pay the price" for you.



> I have read the New
> Testament texts more than once.


Funny... so have I. I mean, I love fiction, but they were the first
works of fiction that I really disliked.



> Those books are full of exhortations
> and warnings against a lazy, lax attitude,


All the examples you give are not moral ones, not spiritual
statements, but statements about not eating or getting paid if you
don't work- which may not have had any spiritual connotations
originally. You, and many other christians before and after you, have
TAKEN THOSE STATEMENTS out of context and assigned some great
spiritual meaning to them- but the reality is that what you are doing
is making up your own religion based on speculation.




> Diana, if you want to castigate those who "do not know their own
> religion by try to inform me about mine", well and good. But I have
> not seen from you or from the others much knowledge of the religions
> you hate either.


Chances are, I have already forgotten more about christianity than
you will ever know. Do you happen to read Hebrew? Diana had good
points, and I understand exactly where she is coming from.




> I am not a Christian, and I am not a pagan. But at
> least I know the Christian and Jewish religious texts. Well, at
least
> I know them pretty well for a layman. And I have been exposed to
both
> Roman and non-Roman paganism,


All I have seen you showing knowledge of is new-age paganism like
Wicca. I don't think you have ever seen authentic reconstructionist
paganism.



GVT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 1. Persecutions
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:04:47 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:
> Salve Paulinus,


> I agree with you. And I was particularly offended by remarks made
by
> Taurinus that those who do not follow his brand of religion are
> "irrational" and "prideful". But it also makes especially humorous
> the posts that say "I am PROUD to be a Pagan". Who is being
> "prideful" now? :}



It is not my doing if you took my general criticism of people who
cannot give their ancestors some credit for wisdom as a personal
attack. Free thought is possible from within a context of piety and
respect for the ancestors and the Religio. If you don't agree with
that, then what is your purpose here?



> There are three "sore spots" with pagans, which explain some of
> their ideas and behaviors such as those we have seen here recently.



Our beliefs are not explained away by "sore spots". They are beliefs
that come from Hallowed antiquity and from our very souls.


> THE PERSECUTIONS
>
> Taurinus post on this subject {post 3661} is a model of myopic
denial
> which forces him to an absurd contradiction. He begins by claiming,
> "The early christians were not persecuted and killed for their
> religious beliefs; they were killed for breaking the law." But then
> look at his summation: "...it {the persecutions} began with
> christians making spectacles of themselves and basically committing
> suicide by
> breaking the law publically and then refusing to do as their judges
> asked them and recant and just burn a token amount of incense.?
>
> Recant? Recant what? If the Christians were not persecuted for
their
> religious beliefs, then what was there to recant?




As I have already stated, their "religious beliefs" included offenses
that were treasonous by law. No civilized society allows people to
break the law just because it is in their "beliefs". Christians were
commiting treason by saying that the Gods of the State were fake or
that they were demons, and by denying the holiness of the Genius of
the Emporer. They were being punished for treason, not Christianity.
If my religion said it was okay to murder people here in the present
day, and I did it, I would be sent to jail for murder, not for my
religion.


GVT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] For all the list christians
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:44:07 -0000

I feel moved to write this letter for all the honorable citizens of
this list who may be christians.

Please accept my most heartfelt apologies for any offence you may
have taken from my posts.

Let me state clearly my stance towards christianity as it exists now,
and as I feel about it in regards to history.

I respect your decision to be christian, and my only rebuke to
christians, ancient or modern, is that they feel (or felt) the need
to forcibly change the beliefs of others, to mock the Gods of others,
and that they broke the laws of the Ancient world in their own
zealous way.

I respect the Cult of Christos as what ammounts to another
manifestation of the Eternal Lysios, or redeemer. I consider the
Christos concept to be another embodiment of Holy Dionysos, and its
mysteries as part of a hallowed pagan tradition of dying and
resurrected Gods that long pre-dates the life of the semi-historical
man named "Jesus".

If christians in ancient Rome had prayed to Christ and lived their
lives without berating the Roman Gods, and the Traditional religion,
and had believed as they wished without attacking and trying to
change others, Rome would have had no problem with them and nor would
I. The Genuis of the Emperor was a holy concept; it was part of the
glue that held Rome together. To attack that (which the early
christians did) is an attack on the fabric of the State. The Romans
were right not to allow it to happen publically.

For the christians who maturely carry on the personal worship of the
Christos, I have nothing but respect. I even see the beauty and
nobility in the self-sacrifice and the love teachings of the Christos.

But when people upset the natural and holy rights of others to
believe as they see fit, to believe as their hallowed ancestors did,
especially when those beliefs were not harming anyone else and were
not against the common law of the people, then there is no
justification.

For all the christians here who see and respect the powerful Harmony
and Truth of the rightness of multiplicity in spiritual expression,
and whose worship of Christ or the Hebrew God does not interfere with
others, I offer you kinship and respect.

For those of any era who feel the need to destory others' beliefs, or
who truly think that only their religion or God is the proper one for
all people, I stand fast and will see that they are not allowed to
repeat history and defame and dishonor the Gods of Rome, or any other
differing belief system.

The Divine Mysteries are so great as to be nearly impossible to
comprehend; a magnificent multiplicity within the hearts of all
people is how they express themselves. That is holy. Evangelism and
absolutism is wrong. Syncretism and Variety is correct, as shown to
us by Nature, the Greatest of all Divinities- She shows us grand
variety in her bosom every day, both in the body of Nature and in the
hearts and minds of men and women. Those who try to limit that are
the wicked of this world.


May the Magna Mater fill you all with her abundance.


Sincerely,

GVT

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?Q?Cristi=E1n_I.S.?=" <cristian_isj@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:04:11 -0300

Salvete!
I don't know if I can contribute with something in this discussion. I was a Catholic for
23 years I guess (I'm 26), most part of the time I studied in confessionals schools and
I "know" Christianity. When I became a Pagan (a thing that I'm still doing) it remains a lot
of Christianity in me. I didn't forget Virgin Mary so fast, and I tried to view her as another
face of a Godess. The same I could say about Jesus. But, the great but, this hardly could
be accepted by the churches, the "officials" voices of Christ (in plural for the different christians
sects). They are clear, there is only one God and you can't believe in anything else. Perhaps
it's no logical, but I have to say as a Pagan that I don't refuse their credence or God.
I learn something, I could pray and worship Romans Gods, but it doesn't mean that I'm not
able to believe in other Gods. In some way They are manifestations of Divinity for other people,
that it's better for them, anyway, the Divinity it's so complex that I can't say they wrong.
But the orthodoxy of the Church believes only the Lord is God and if you believe different
you are wrong, and you need to meet Jesus. For good, the Inquisition finished and if you
don't believe in Christ you are safe (Am I? Bush, I'm afraid of you!!). My excuses Americans
for this commentary in brackets.
I remember when being kids we asked to our priests about some good people that it wasn't
christians as Gandhi. They said God will consider his goodness in the time of the final judge,
listen people!!: He was not safe by Jesus Christ, so, he maybe needs to be judged yet!
I don't want to hate Christianity, I prefer to love my religion and forget, but I live in a Christian
world (in my country at least) and Christian morality it's all over my society (Latin America),
so sometimes I read Nietszche and I feel so possessed by his words (Antichrist).
Closing, I read all the positions about On religions beliefs, and the not Pagan positions were
excellent, because they helped me and opened my eyes wide . But here I post my feelings more than
my rational thoughts, not because they're right, but because sometimes it's necessary to feel.

Valete

Marius Verus

PD. it's ironic, but my real name means Christian. I love it anyway.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Animal Sacrifice
From:	Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:38:58 -0800

Avete Quirites!

Seriously snipped quote:

"Well, Christianity at least never had animal sacrifice. -- Nerva"

As a very tangential aside to this discussion, my research into the life of
Julia Domna, wife of Septimius Severus, has revealed that she herself was
very opposed to animal sacrifice of any sort. She believed, along with
others, apparently, that symbolic sacrifices "should be" enough to satisfy
the Gods. When she and Flavius Philostratus (II) arguably conspired to turn
the 1st century CE sage Apollonius of Tyana into the cornerstone of a new,
syncretistic religious movement, they made a point of emphasizing (or
possibly inventing, I'm not sure at this point) Apollonius' vegetarianism,
and having him prefer symoblic to literal sacrifices as a higher, more
spiritual offering. There are lots of different strains coming together to
make the long, and occasionally tedious, song that is Philostratus' "Life of
Apollonius of Tyana," not the least of which was Neo-Pythagoreanism (of
which I am not even a neo-phyte ;o) . But Julia was fond of Christians and
Jews, the former performing weekly spiritual sacrifices and the later no
longer having a place to sacrifice, and having to come up with alternative
methods to become "right" with their deity.

This isn't meant as an argument or refutation of any sort, just an
interesting sidelight. As with any group of people, there is never a
uniform consensus where everyone believes the same thing. It's as true of
2nd/3rd century CE Pagans as well as Christians. Julia did not live long
enough to see Philostratus' book published, and no organized movement to use
it as a Scripture ever really developed, although the cult of Apollonius was
established well before their literary efforts. Had things gone a different
way and the Severan dynasty continued, it's possible an official vegetarian
cult may have been promoted, as Julia Mamaea, Domna's great-neice, and her
son Alexander Severus were both enamored of all world relgions and seemed
possibly interested in continuing Domna Augusta's work. But that's all
woulda coulda shoulda now....

Valete,

CN. IVLIVS STRABO

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Arguments
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:03:03 -0000

Salvete Omnes,


It would be great in our all are various discussions if we could all
learn to argue with a little more sensitivity and respect for one
another's beliefs. Arguing by personally attacking a person's idea
through his character is called the fallacy ad hominum and renders
the argument invalid, especially when being judged by academics.
Similarily, saying things to shake up an argument like Jesus is
Lord!, my country right or wrong!, don't care, I'm proud to be
Canadian!, pagan or whatever is called fallacy to emotional appeal
and really weakens the argument.

I have no problem when people attack my arguments or prove me wrong.
For example on a few occasions over the last few months Mr. " Me-in-
disguise and Q.Fabius Maximus straightened me out on a few points
after a thought I had the cat by the ass so to speak. I do not think
these two gentlemen thought I was an idiot and neither was I
intimidated by them just because their points of view were stronger.
Its just that their knowledge on the topics was better than mine and
from their criticisms, I learned something.

With respect to the Religious arguments over the last few days. I say
what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The last
postings by Nerva are no more offensive in my opinion than the posts
of some of our Pagan collegues that deeply critized Christianity over
the last few days. I admit I cannot compete very well against Diana or
Tarinius on the subject of Paganism by itself but I've read a lot on
bible history and can give a reasonable account defending points on
Judeo-Christianity. Similarily Nerva gave a very good account of
himself going directly to the New Testament etc. Still, none of the
arguers including myself are 100% experts. I could bring in some PHD
theologians I know that could tear Diana's and Tarinius' points to
pieces. Similarily I am sure Diana and Galerius could find experts on
the other side of the coin that could do likewise to Christianity.
Its all about knowledge in one way or another. The bottom line is
that the existance of God or the Gods can never be proven or
disproven according to philosophers. Forget it scientifically
speaking. Its a matter of personal faith and experience that can't be
proved to other people; I have to either believe or disbelieve
equally that my Pagan colleagues really experienced their Gods as
much as I believe or disbelieve that my Christian friends have
experienced Mary or Christ.

Having said all that, I would like to request that the Academy of
Thules put on a course on Rhetoric and include the fundementals of
logic as well. I would love a great review course because it is so
easy for any of us to walk into these fallacies. To talk like Cicero
would be great! - mind you he did lose his head and hands eventually
for getting to personal in his arguments.

Yours Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Salve Nerva!
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:02:27 +0100

Salve Nerva!

Thank you for your response. I really enjoyed your email. In your Gens
photo, you look like you have quite a strong character and it is certainly
reflected in your emails!

>NERVA: Diana, I like you very much, so please do not take this as
>anything more than a slight bit of irritability on my part, ok? But
>come on now! {Wollops your head with a pillow}

Ouch!! Next time I'll duck!

Just to clear this up first:

>Diana, if you want to castigate those who "do not know their own
>religion by try to inform me about mine", well and good. But I have
>not seen from you or from the others much knowledge of the religions
>you hate either.

Castigate=punish or scold severely (I had to look that one up).
I don't hate any religions-- not at all! In fact, I don't hate anyone or
anything. It is not in my character. My SINCEREST apologies if you or anyone
else had the impression that I hated christianity. To quote you I feel 'a
slight bit of irritablility' to CERTAIN Christians.

And well....I do know about Christianity first hand. I became born-again
Christian in 1978. Nowadays, I believe that I would be called a
'Fundamentalist Christian'. I have read the old testament at least 5 times
and the new at least 10, probably 15 times. I was one of those people (whom
everyone or every religious persuasion hates) standing on street corners
handing out pamphlets and ringing doorbells trying to convert people.

>But the origin of it in Christian circles was not derived from Alexander
or >from Buddha, but from Judaic texts.

Then we agree:-) Actually, I didn't say that Alexander of Buddha were the
originators, but that it was trendy at the time to name someone as the Son
of God. Sort of like the late eighties in Brooklyn, we called all the tough
guys Rocky :-))

>NERVA: That is incorrect. Nestorius, a Bishop did indeed teach women
>had no souls---and he and his teaching were both condemned at an
>ecumenical council.

I have to find my references for this. My memory is realy awful these days.
But I think that one was 'The
Roots of Christianity'.

<<Now it is only animals that fit into this soulless category, making it
easy for us to exploit them without guilt.>>

Maybe I wasn't clear (I was typing in a hurry), but I was referring to the
old 'be fruitful and multiply' and the references in the old testament when
God says that Man should use the earth & its animals for whatever needs he
may have. I can dig out the exact biblical quotation if you'd like. I'm at
work right now, and a Bible isn't a standard part of our office equipmment
:-)

>NERVA: Christianity never had animal sacrifice. Pagans did.
In most cases, it was more like an ancient barbecue, with a piece of the
meat being offered to the Gods. But if Egyptians slaughtered 10.000 cats as
a sacrifice, then I am as disgusted about it as you are!

>Since they were born, lived, breathed, worked, and died
>within the Roman world, they had as much right to their own accustomed
>celebrations as any would-be "reconstructionist" or "neo-pagan" has
>today.

I agree again. My point was that those Christians who condemn pagans don't
realize that their own holidays are Pagan in origin.

>then is that the fault of the teaching, or the one misusing it?
Excellent point!

>The truth is you pagans have a couple of "behavioral motivators" of
>your own, which are supposed to influence behavior through fear.(Cut)
>karma (cut) Reincarnation

Not all pagans believe in reincarnation or karma. and you missed one: the
Wiccan 3 fold Law. Do something bad and it returns 3 times to you. A good
rule to stop people using Magic for evil purposes, that is assuming the
wiccan in question had the force of will to hex someone in the first place.

In any case, karma, reincarnation and the 3 fold law do not have nearly the
psychological 'punch' that
devils, demons and eternal Hell has. I know this from experience.

> "If a man will not work, then let him not eat".
I don't see how that quote (or the others) related to taking personal
responsiblilty for one's actions. Sorry.

>To be blunt, I have seen mo superiority in the pagans, moral or otherwise.
Actually, dear Nerva, I never said that Pagan were morally superior. What I
said was that the average christian does not go to Church and most don't
even believe that Jesus was their Saviour. Yet many of them condemn Pagans
immediately as being evil, while the average Pagan is busy with their
spiritual path on a daily basis.

And to close, anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ as written in
the bible is certainly a moral, kind person. It is only organized
Christianity that gives me "a slight bit of irritability." If Jesus had a
grave, he would be rolling over in it constantly because of the things that
have been done in his name.

Vale!
Diana

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: For all the list christians
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:27:21 -0000

> Salve G. Galeri,

Thank you for sending out this considerate letter. There is no need
to apologize in my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions
and should be able to express them. Gosh, I have had more heated
debates within my own family as well as close friends. I think you
have a pretty good idea on my postions if you were able to get to
most of my posts. Though I disagreed with you and others on various
ideas, please understand that I have nothing against you or others
pesonally. If you people were in my vacinity now I would shake hands
and buy you some rounds.

For those Christians who might have been offended just remember that
we are instructed to love our enemies, those that disagree, speak ill
of us etc. Lets start then by acting as such and letting cool heads
prevail. There are tons of things to accomplish in Nova Roma and we
all have to support one another and work as brothers and sisters.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


> I feel moved to write this letter for all the honorable citizens of
> this list who may be christians.
>
> Please accept my most heartfelt apologies for any offence you may
> have taken from my posts.
>
> Let me state clearly my stance towards christianity as it exists
now,
> and as I feel about it in regards to history.
>
> I respect your decision to be christian, and my only rebuke to
> christians, ancient or modern, is that they feel (or felt) the need
> to forcibly change the beliefs of others, to mock the Gods of
others,
> and that they broke the laws of the Ancient world in their own
> zealous way.
>
> I respect the Cult of Christos as what ammounts to another
> manifestation of the Eternal Lysios, or redeemer. I consider the
> Christos concept to be another embodiment of Holy Dionysos, and its
> mysteries as part of a hallowed pagan tradition of dying and
> resurrected Gods that long pre-dates the life of the semi-
historical
> man named "Jesus".
>
> If christians in ancient Rome had prayed to Christ and lived their
> lives without berating the Roman Gods, and the Traditional
religion,
> and had believed as they wished without attacking and trying to
> change others, Rome would have had no problem with them and nor
would
> I. The Genuis of the Emperor was a holy concept; it was part of the
> glue that held Rome together. To attack that (which the early
> christians did) is an attack on the fabric of the State. The Romans
> were right not to allow it to happen publically.
>
> For the christians who maturely carry on the personal worship of
the
> Christos, I have nothing but respect. I even see the beauty and
> nobility in the self-sacrifice and the love teachings of the
Christos.
>
> But when people upset the natural and holy rights of others to
> believe as they see fit, to believe as their hallowed ancestors
did,
> especially when those beliefs were not harming anyone else and were
> not against the common law of the people, then there is no
> justification.
>
> For all the christians here who see and respect the powerful
Harmony
> and Truth of the rightness of multiplicity in spiritual expression,
> and whose worship of Christ or the Hebrew God does not interfere
with
> others, I offer you kinship and respect.
>
> For those of any era who feel the need to destory others' beliefs,
or
> who truly think that only their religion or God is the proper one
for
> all people, I stand fast and will see that they are not allowed to
> repeat history and defame and dishonor the Gods of Rome, or any
other
> differing belief system.
>
> The Divine Mysteries are so great as to be nearly impossible to
> comprehend; a magnificent multiplicity within the hearts of all
> people is how they express themselves. That is holy. Evangelism and
> absolutism is wrong. Syncretism and Variety is correct, as shown to
> us by Nature, the Greatest of all Divinities- She shows us grand
> variety in her bosom every day, both in the body of Nature and in
the
> hearts and minds of men and women. Those who try to limit that are
> the wicked of this world.
>
>
> May the Magna Mater fill you all with her abundance.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> GVT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Military Award Winner
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:53:14 -0500 (EST)

Gentlemen;

To both of you I extend my congratulatons. I was a very difficult task
for me to judge your offered solutions to the problem posed. It was so
difficult in fact, that as I said, I had to set up each description on a
playing board and evaluate each movement as described, under the rules
provided. I would be pleased to serve with either of you in a Battle
Game on a Battle Board were such possible.

So to Commander Coriolius, Your entry was interesting in several points.
Each contest must have a winner and one who is not a winner, but in this
contest and considering the effort requiired to reach a conclusion, I do
not recognize that there were any real "losers." I hope to see you in a
similiar situation again in the not too distant future.

Commander Marinus, My congratulations to you as well. Yours, as was
your opponents, a difficult strategy to judge, and was a most time
consuming effort to arrive at my figures. However, it as fun as well.
I haven't played war games for some time,as thereare not anyone nearby
who is interested. I hope that you will take a moment of your liesure
time and explain to me (perhaps on the Militarium List) the answers to
the two questions that I mentioned in my judging response. I wanted to
better understand those two aspects of your attack posture. Commander,
to you, I extend the traditional Well Done! Your tactics and strategy
was in fact most impressive, and for the most part relatively simple and
straight foreward, with an eye out to alternatives throughout the
conflict.


Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	FW: [Nova-Roma] THE WINNER OF THE LUDI VICTORIA MILITARY AWARD
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:05:51 +0100

Roman Briefpapier> THE WINNER IS HONORABLE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!

Warmest congratulations to my dear friend Marinus from the Cohors Aedilis!

Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina
Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples..
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:29:39 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Hey, do you think you could get together a collection of pagan texts
>dealing with the low status of women? And animals....do you know of
>any statements on how the ancient pagans thought of animals?
>
On animals they appear to have mostly regarded them as machines and slaves likewise; "A thinking tool" to quote Aristotle (who didn't think much of women either). The last I think inevitable in a warrior society and continued into the present via various religious routes, as more a fear of 'the feminine' than of women themselves. Modern feminists perpetuate this essential acceptance of traditional low status for things considered feminine compared to masculine and attempts to lever women into them rather than to put them on an equal level and extricate men from over-'masculinisation' as its WL predecessor was more inclined to do.
At the risk of offending even more people, the lower status in practice of women in Greek compared to Roman society seems to be the natural corollory to a society both warrior-based and homosexual. Once you have teenage boys, why bother with women except to breed? While ancient society didn't suffer from the modern exclusivity of either heterosexual or else homosexual and nothing between, pre-Classical and possibly lower class Greek society does not seem to have been so fervidly anti-heterosexual.
It interests me that the most militaristic society in Sparta showed both the strongest evidence of matriarchal survivals and the greatest female freedom: with the men all in barracks, the women were free to stay and run the farm (all there was to life) exactly how they chose.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: For all the list christians
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:30:19 +0000

Salve Q. Lani:

Thank you for the compliment, but I think you meant Valerius and not
Galerius; Valerius being the author of the above mentioned letter.

Bene Vale
G. Galerius Peregrinator.






>From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: For all the list christians
>Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:27:21 -0000
>
> > Salve G. Galeri,
>
>Thank you for sending out this considerate letter. There is no need
>to apologize in my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions
>and should be able to express them. Gosh, I have had more heated
>debates within my own family as well as close friends. I think you
>have a pretty good idea on my postions if you were able to get to
>most of my posts. Though I disagreed with you and others on various
>ideas, please understand that I have nothing against you or others
>pesonally. If you people were in my vacinity now I would shake hands
>and buy you some rounds.
>
>For those Christians who might have been offended just remember that
>we are instructed to love our enemies, those that disagree, speak ill
>of us etc. Lets start then by acting as such and letting cool heads
>prevail. There are tons of things to accomplish in Nova Roma and we
>all have to support one another and work as brothers and sisters.
>
>Yours respectfully,
>
>Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
> > I feel moved to write this letter for all the honorable citizens of
> > this list who may be christians.
> >
> > Please accept my most heartfelt apologies for any offence you may
> > have taken from my posts.
> >
> > Let me state clearly my stance towards christianity as it exists
>now,
> > and as I feel about it in regards to history.
> >
> > I respect your decision to be christian, and my only rebuke to
> > christians, ancient or modern, is that they feel (or felt) the need
> > to forcibly change the beliefs of others, to mock the Gods of
>others,
> > and that they broke the laws of the Ancient world in their own
> > zealous way.
> >
> > I respect the Cult of Christos as what ammounts to another
> > manifestation of the Eternal Lysios, or redeemer. I consider the
> > Christos concept to be another embodiment of Holy Dionysos, and its
> > mysteries as part of a hallowed pagan tradition of dying and
> > resurrected Gods that long pre-dates the life of the semi-
>historical
> > man named "Jesus".
> >
> > If christians in ancient Rome had prayed to Christ and lived their
> > lives without berating the Roman Gods, and the Traditional
>religion,
> > and had believed as they wished without attacking and trying to
> > change others, Rome would have had no problem with them and nor
>would
> > I. The Genuis of the Emperor was a holy concept; it was part of the
> > glue that held Rome together. To attack that (which the early
> > christians did) is an attack on the fabric of the State. The Romans
> > were right not to allow it to happen publically.
> >
> > For the christians who maturely carry on the personal worship of
>the
> > Christos, I have nothing but respect. I even see the beauty and
> > nobility in the self-sacrifice and the love teachings of the
>Christos.
> >
> > But when people upset the natural and holy rights of others to
> > believe as they see fit, to believe as their hallowed ancestors
>did,
> > especially when those beliefs were not harming anyone else and were
> > not against the common law of the people, then there is no
> > justification.
> >
> > For all the christians here who see and respect the powerful
>Harmony
> > and Truth of the rightness of multiplicity in spiritual expression,
> > and whose worship of Christ or the Hebrew God does not interfere
>with
> > others, I offer you kinship and respect.
> >
> > For those of any era who feel the need to destory others' beliefs,
>or
> > who truly think that only their religion or God is the proper one
>for
> > all people, I stand fast and will see that they are not allowed to
> > repeat history and defame and dishonor the Gods of Rome, or any
>other
> > differing belief system.
> >
> > The Divine Mysteries are so great as to be nearly impossible to
> > comprehend; a magnificent multiplicity within the hearts of all
> > people is how they express themselves. That is holy. Evangelism and
> > absolutism is wrong. Syncretism and Variety is correct, as shown to
> > us by Nature, the Greatest of all Divinities- She shows us grand
> > variety in her bosom every day, both in the body of Nature and in
>the
> > hearts and minds of men and women. Those who try to limit that are
> > the wicked of this world.
> >
> >
> > May the Magna Mater fill you all with her abundance.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > GVT
>


_________________________________________________________________
Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples./ aNIMALS.
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:32:08 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
>Christianity at least never had animal sacrifice.
>
Just people.
Vibius.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:39:19 +0000 (GMT)

The local churches are running a campaign which says it all for me why I could perhaps be a Muslim or a Jew but never a Christian. The slogan runs "Jesus gives you the power to change".
How DARE they determine for me whether I should change or not? What feeble bacterial condition do they think of the human being their own scripture says was "Formed in the likeness of God[s]" to then specify that even if I wish to change, I can only do so because Jesus does it for me? And why should he need a church to operate through? If they said "God is change", yes, I might feel some sympathy. As is, this somes up the whole wretched hand-wringing indoctrinated helplessness of that religion. I am quite sure that the text "Be as little children" did not mean total helpless dependence!
Vib. Ambr. Caes.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: THE WINNER OF THE LUDI VICTORIA MILITARY AWARD
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:39:08 -0800 (PST)

Diana Moravia Aventina writes:

> Warmest congratulations to my dear friend Marinus
> from the Cohors Aedilis!

*smile* Thank you Diana, and thanks to all my
cohorts in the Cohors Aedilis. I know that some
days it feels like we'd rather tackle Hannibal
than another of Caeso's ambitious projects. But
I think the citizens of Nova Roma have appreciated
our efforts.

-- Marinus

=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:43:19 +0100

Roman Briefpapier
Salve,
Animal sacrifice still exists: the Islamites (certainly a monotheistic
religion) sacrifice a lamb at the end of the Ramadan (spelling) by cutting
it's throat. I saw it on tv and it was truly upsetting. Even worse: Belgian
farmers ahve to make sure that there lambs are well hidden during this time
because many of them are stolen for this ritual. GAIA the largest animal
rights organization in Belgium and France, are doing what they can to stop
it. So far, no luck.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples./ aNIMALS.
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:44:53 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Please citizens, lets not let this argument degrade any worse than it already has. Lest we forget (and in doing so sanitize history) that the ancients also had book burnings (during or after the Bacchanalian suppression) and persecuted other Pagans during the Bacchanalian (sp.) crises during the 180's bce. Lets we forget the xenophobic reactions some Romans had towards the Greeks and their influence.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On the subject of Temples./ aNIMALS.


-----Original Message-----
From : gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
>Christianity at least never had animal sacrifice.
>
Just people.
Vibius.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] 1. Persecutions
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:44:57 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
>
>Umm point of order here. These were Roman Auxilia, not Romans. Unless of
>course you are referring to the fact they are in the Roman army makes them
>Roman. But they were not citizens. I had the same argument with the
>history channel. I was pleased they saw it my way

since we don't even know that it happened and have no records other than Gospel comments on what was said and done at various secret meetings, it is a little presumptious to decide who these people, who may not have existed at all, might have been.
Vib Ambr Caes


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Temples
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:48:34 +0100

Roman BriefpapierSalve Marcus Minucius Audens,

Thank you very much kind sir for the information and the book
recommendation! I really appreciate it!

>"The Roman Occupation of Britain," Haverfield, Oxford University Press,
>1924

Diana Moravia Aventina
Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:49:47 -0800

Ave Vib. Ambr. et Omnes,

And, what exactly does this have to do with Nova Roma? If you don't like it, ignore it or protest it or organize against it or be proactive and establish your own Temple and advertise like the Christians do. But please lets not bring it into Nova Roma.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: On religious beliefs


The local churches are running a campaign which says it all for me why I could perhaps be a Muslim or a Jew but never a Christian. The slogan runs "Jesus gives you the power to change".
How DARE they determine for me whether I should change or not? What feeble bacterial condition do they think of the human being their own scripture says was "Formed in the likeness of God[s]" to then specify that even if I wish to change, I can only do so because Jesus does it for me? And why should he need a church to operate through? If they said "God is change", yes, I might feel some sympathy. As is, this somes up the whole wretched hand-wringing indoctrinated helplessness of that religion. I am quite sure that the text "Be as little children" did not mean total helpless dependence!
Vib. Ambr. Caes.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Oh! One more! (I wish I could edit messages)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:52:43 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : lithia_cassia <mscommunication@attbi.com>
>originally 'the god of slaves' and then 'the god of women and slaves'
>and women took a very active part in it. There were actually women
>priestesses in the early Christian churches.
>
And to quell another slander: those texts verifiable as not by some later school using St. Paul's name, make frequent reference to the leading role of women in both the sect (which may have been part of its distancing from Judaeism) and in his own mission. Obviously they take a position as his helpers because he is writing about his itinerant mission, not their static one. It is slanderous to pick on either the one brief mention he makes in the context of etiquette against the sort of voodoo fits common in 'evangelical' churches or the general situation of the age when travel and even town streets were dangerous, as a general subordination of women.
Vib Ambr Caes.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Legion XXIV Vicesima Quarta October 2002
From:	Legion XXIV <legionxxiv@comcast.net>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:57:42 -0500

VICESIMA QUARTA - NEWSLETTER
OCTOBER 2002
LEGION XXIV MEDIA ATLANTIA
Defending the Frontiers of Ancient Rome
in the Mid-Atlantic Province of North America

Gallio Velius Marsallas
George W. Metz Praefectus / Commander
13 Post Run - Newtown Square PA 19073
legionxxiv@comcast.net 610-353-4982
www.legionxxiv.org

John Ebel, Primus Palus, Lead Gladiator
Box 2146 - East Hampton, NY 11937
631-329-2430 home 800-926-2306 office

Avete et Salutatio Commilitones

CALL OUT for DUTY!! - GLADIATOR DAY at U.P.M. = NOV-2nd
There will be screening of the movie "Gladiator" at the Univ.-PA Museum,
33rd and Spruce Sts, on Saturday, Nov-2 at 2 PM. We have been asked
to have a contingent of Roman soldiers/gladiators present to demonstrate
what Maximus's troops should have looked like. We will be circulating
through the Museum's galleries from 12 Noon till movie time at 2PM.
This will be a good opportunity for us to demonstrate what was right and
wrong with "Gladiator" and explain why the Movie is a good story; but bad
history!
The Ludus Magnus, our Great School of the Gladiator has been invited
to do a "Show and Tell" on gladiatorial combat and methodology.
There will be stipend paid for our participation and several of you have
signed-up for duty. Please confirm your intention to be there so the
Commander can advise the UPM staff of how many to expect.

In connection with this event, the Commander was interviewed by the
Philadelphia Daily News newspaper and took part in a promotional taping session with the Museum Staff and local ABC TV Channel 6.
The 30 second or so segment is to air during the 6 to 7 AM News Show on
Thursday morning. Yes! That is Halloween Day! Is that appropriate or what!

GLADIATOR MOVIE PROP AND PRODUCTION LECTURE
Also on Saturday, Nov-2, 12:00 Noon, there will be a lecture by
Tim Pafik, author of the forthcoming book, "Gladiator, The Armour, Costumes,
and Weaponry", illustrating how the designers and armourers of the film
"Gladiator" began with historical research, brought their ideas into the
workshop, and saw their creations used on the battlefields and arenas of
"Gladiator." The audience will also discover the Hollywood secrets of
special effects weaponry and armour. A selection of props from the film will
be available for the audience to inspect first-hand.

WEAPONRY AND ARMOUR FROM THE MOVIE "GLADIATOR"
Saturday, November 2 through Sunday, December 1
Univ.-PA Museum - 3230 South Street - Philadelphia
This display opens in conjunction with the first day of the Museum's
month-long Saturday film series, Ecco Roma, Cittą Eterna:
A Cinematic Journey of Discovery. As a tribute to the "Gladiator"
effect and the enormous impact the film "Gladiator" has had in redefining
the classical world in modern popular culture, UPM will have a special
display of weaponry and armour created for that film. These original props
include a collection of gladiatorial equipment from the provincial arena
scenes (shield, axe, flail, mace and swords, and helmet) and from
the opening battle scenes between Romans and barbarians, such as a
legionary cuirass, helmet, belt, sword, and special effects retractable
dagger. A larger display of costumes and weaponry from the movie, and the
sword used by Russell Crowe in the Colosseum scenes, is planned to coincide
with the opening of "Worlds Intertwined: Etruscans, Greeks,
and Romans" on March 16, 2003.

While we as reenactors may not consider the Movie "Gladiator" and its
props to be as authentic as we might wish, it would be interesting to
hear the details behind the Production and get an "up-close" look at the
props none the less.

For directions: consult www.mapquest.com using "3230 South Street, Phila,
19104". Use South Street exit, west off of I-76, Schuylkill Expressway,
right or left toward large stadium, past first "light", to entrance on the left
opposite the stadium. Push "Call" button and advise you are for
Cleo Malin and Gladiator Day Event. Park at left curb.

UPCOMING CAMPAIGNS

Nov 2 Legionary and Gladiatorial Presence for Movie "Gladiator",
UPM, 12noon - 3PM, 3230 South Street, Phila.
Dec 20-21 Market Place 29AD Advent Program, Christ UMC,
Broomall, PA

2003
Mar 15 Roman atmosphere for Univ.-PA Museum Gala and
Grand March to Exhibit, 5PM - 9PM, Philadelphia
Mar 16 Legion and Gladiatorial Encampment and Demonstrations,
UPM, with Legion XX. 10AM - 4PM
Mar 19 or 20 Roman atmosphere for UPM Member's Opening Party,
6 - 9PM, Philadelphia

ADDENDUM TO MARKET DAY AFTER ACTION REPORT
Our Noble Senator Audens has come forward with an addendum
to his NovaRoma Market Day After Action Report, for which we
thank him.

I beg your leave to bring to you the second part of the subject
offering:

-------At about 9:45 A.M. , about one-quarter hour prior to the
admission gates opening, your "Summa Pilus" was in the gladiator
camp's changing quarters, donning his equipment and looking to his
impression. I overheard one of our founding members of the
Gladiator School, "Lupus Brittanicus" the -- Wolf Of Britain --
(aka: Michael Catellier), being vigorously questioned by someone
on the subject of provincial amphitheaters.

The Ludus Magnus had, as always, set it's "period impression" as that
of a provincial Imperial gladiatorial school, set in the remote bordering
provinces, and attached directly to an occupying legion, in this case
Legion XXIV. I peered out of the tent, almost completely geared up for
the day, and to my utter amazement, beheld almost 5-100 spectators
beginning to logger in early.

These enthusiastic new-Romans would not be denied access to the
Market Day events, and like the mobs of yesteryear, were not prepared
to observe mere formalities such as time schedules. They wanted
information and gratification in the form of entertainment and food, but
above all, they wanted ACTION!!!!

When I had fully emerged from the dressing tent, I saw L. Britannicus
(hereinafter the "Wolf") working our two new slave acquisitions to the
Ludus, "Aolus of Antioch" (aka - Albert Barbato) and "Gaius of
Macedonia" (aka - James Massimilo) at the "palus" or straw-man posts.
Since winning his Rudius (and hence his freedom), earlier this year this
formerly crude and unmanageable barbarian has benefited well from his
elevation in status and award of better conditions, and has impressed
your Summa Palus with his expertise and ability.

While the barbarian "Wolf" still apparently simmers with rage about his
acquisition by the L. Magnus, he has displayed a remarkable
penchant for self-preservation and advancement, and has sublimented
that rage, turning it into a marketable skill in the amphitheaters. The Wolf
has now been elevated to the rank of "Palus Primus" or "first-class"
gladiator, the rank previously occupied by your "Summa Palus", and
"Maximus" Mecurius Minucius Gladius (hereinafter "Maximus") has been
elevated to the position of the HIGHEST ranked or "top" gladiator. in my
capacity of part-ower and Lanistae ("trainer") in the school.
The Wolf will now be able to train the new recruits ("tirones" or
"tyros") in the various gladiatorial styles, and will be responsible for
training of newly arrived slave gladiators, those most-reluctant students
of the dark skills taught by the ludus. Wolf will receive all the
status and privileges of a top-ranked gladiator, as "Palus Primus", a
position that he has earned in demonstration of skill, attitude and
service to the Empire, in addition to maintaining his innate barbarian
ferocity. This service has been sanctified by the blood of Wolf's many
victims in arena bouts, and his service is well-noted and recognized.

(To be continued)

Respectfully submitted by Marcus Minucius Audens for
"Summa Palus --Maximus" Mecurius Minucius Gladius;

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

NEW MEMBERS
Alexander Puliti of Willow Grove PA has signed on. He saw us at the
Lakewood Lions Ren Faire and he has Latin skills - we all could use some
help with our Latin? Salve! Alexander!

John Urban - Quintus Urbanus Ignatius - has volunteered to help us out
in defending the western "limes" of our provincia in Concord, Ohio.
He would be a welcome addition to our annual campaign at Fort Malden,
in Amherstburg, Ontario in August.

NEW WEB PAGE www.legionxxiv.org/signum
A new page dealing with Aquila, Signums, Vexillium, Amago and Draco
standards has been added to the website. It is still under development;
but take a look. It is loaded with photos. Anyone having details or photos
is welcome to submit same for inclusion and credit.
An Alphabetic Site Index has also been added for easier access to the
many pages and subjects covered. Our website is becoming known as
one of the most extensive Roman reenactor sites for photos and information
on Ancient Rome.

Thanking you for your interest in Legion XXIV,

I manere in Viresium et Honorare
I remain in Strength and Honor

(take your pick)
Tuus in Sodalicio Romanae Republica
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Tuus in Sodalicio Romanae Imperi
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Empire

Gallio / George




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:06:40 -0800 (PST)

Salve,
Two points.
1.) Any Muslam who results to theft for a sacrifical
victim has insulted Islam. Hopefully the authorities
will catch at least some of the thieves so they can
spend the next Ramadan in prison.

2.) Any who know me are well aware that I'm no friend
of the Muslams, However If GAIA insists on interfering
with a ritiual that has been part of Islam since it's
founding, I Hope they sue GAIA and it's suporters into
bankruptcy.

Attempting to interfere with the Religous rites of
another faith certainly is NOT part of the ancient
heiratage of Paganism. How can we ask others to
respect our right to engage in our faith if we attempt
to block others from performing the rites of thier
faith?

--- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:
> Roman Briefpapier
> Salve,
> Animal sacrifice still exists: the Islamites
> (certainly a monotheistic
> religion) sacrifice a lamb at the end of the Ramadan
> (spelling) by cutting
> it's throat. I saw it on tv and it was truly
> upsetting. Even worse: Belgian
> farmers ahve to make sure that there lambs are well
> hidden during this time
> because many of them are stolen for this ritual.
> GAIA the largest animal
> rights organization in Belgium and France, are doing
> what they can to stop
> it. So far, no luck.
>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
> Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
> to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:08:37 -0800 (PST)

Diana Moravia Aventina writes:

> Animal sacrifice still exists: the Islamites
> (certainly a monotheistic religion) sacrifice a lamb
> at the end of the Ramadan (spelling) by cutting
> it's throat.

Yeah, that does happen. Here in the US, there are
places that lease out space for Muslims who wish to
practice this tradition. I'll note that the practice
is only kept by a small minority in the American
Islamic community though. (I'm not Islamic, but I
know a lot of people who are.)

Also, in the United States there's a religion known
as Santeria (I think I'm spelling that correctly)
which practices animal sacrifice. They have been
implicated as the probable cause of a wildfile in
southern California last summer, thought to have been
caused by a fire lit as part of one of their outdoor
rituals.

That's not to say their blood sacrifices are in and
of themselves harmful to others, but rather to point
out that they don't seem to be as careful as one might
hope for people who are engaging in ritualized
killing.
Gives the naysayers one more bad thing to say about
pagans, which isn't good for everybody else.

-- Marinus

=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:10:47 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be>

>Animal sacrifice still exists: the Islamites (certainly a monotheistic
>religion) sacrifice a lamb at the end of the Ramadan (spelling) by cutting
>it's throat. I saw it on tv and it was truly upsetting. Even worse:

So do some Hindus. These are relics because Islam is a positive religion: as long as you do what's in the Book, you can do whatever else you please as well unti lthe Book specifically bans it. At least they eat the lamb so it is shading into dedicating the centrepiece of your feast much like saying Grace. Kosher and Halal slaughter requires slitting the throat to drain the blood. When this is done properly cutting both carotid and jugular, it is faster than the 'normal' slaughter process requiring stunning. When it has been evaluated it has nearly always been done by someone inexpert and frequently by cutting only one or the other.
Vibius Ambrosisu Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] presumptious
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:13:08 EST

In a message dated 10/28/02 1:45:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
me-in-@disguise.co.uk writes:


> it is a little presumptious to decide who these people, who may not have
> existed at all, might have been.
>

Sorry III Cyrenica is listed as the garrison of Judea, in nine ad. That is
not a Roman legio by any stretch of the imagination. We have no legio
movements into Judea until well after our period. Presumptions and educated
guesses is how we usually operate.

Q. Fabius Maximus
Roman military historian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] a very quick last word on religious beliefs
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:16:51 +0100

Salve all,
Just to say that I a finding all of these viewpoints on religious beliefs
very very interesting. It's wonderful to discuss things with obviously
intelligent people with different viewpoints. But in order to not stress out
our list moderators any further, I will drop our of the discussion (even
though I am loving every second of it!) If I just HAVE to comment, I'll do
it off list.

There were many many people who said interesting things, but off the top of
my head:

Christian, your email was beautifully written! I agree 100%
Taurinus, I'm glad that I am on the same side of this discussion as you are
;-) Honestly, you could run circles around me. And of course, I agree with
you 100% as well.
Paulinus said :'I cannot compete very well against Diana or Tarinius on the
subject of Paganism' -- I'll take that as a compliment. The fact of the
matter is that I have been busy in the European Paganism scene every spare
moment for the past 4 years (answering inquiries from Pagans and non-Pagans
& media inquiries, answering hate mail :-p, answering emails from Satanists
who think that they are Pagans, organizing rituals, workshops, etc. etc. See
my website if you'd like on http://www.be.paganfederation.org

And to end on a pleasant note,
May whatever Gods you worship bless you! And if you don't worship any Gods,
then you'll have to just accept the humble blessings of a fellow Nova Roman!

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Arguments
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:11:05 -0500

On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 07:03:03PM -0000, Quintus Lanius Paulinus wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,

Salve, Q. Lanius Paulinus!

> Having said all that, I would like to request that the Academy of
> Thules put on a course on Rhetoric and include the fundementals of
> logic as well. I would love a great review course because it is so
> easy for any of us to walk into these fallacies. To talk like Cicero
> would be great! - mind you he did lose his head and hands eventually
> for getting to personal in his arguments.

This is probably the best suggestion to come out of this thread... not
that I didn't find the (fairly early) informational content interesting,
but seeing a somewhat acrimonious discussion turned into an idea for an
educational opportunity is a treat. Especially since I've often wished
for a structured - although not necessarily formal - exposure to
Rhetoric and Logic both.

Well done!


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing
crumbles.
-- Sallust, "Jugurtha"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: For all the list christians
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:35:05 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
Salve Galerius:

Right you are; I meant Valerius as you say. That's what happens when
I go through my day without a caffine fix. Anyway my sentiments are
extended to all brother and sister Nova Romans as well.

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



> Salve Q. Lani:
>
> Thank you for the compliment, but I think you meant Valerius
and not
> Galerius; Valerius being the author of the above mentioned letter.
>
> Bene Vale
> G. Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...>
> >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@y...
> >To: Nova-Roma@y...
> >Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: For all the list christians
> >Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:27:21 -0000
> >
> > > Salve G. Galeri,
> >
> >Thank you for sending out this considerate letter. There is no need
> >to apologize in my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions
> >and should be able to express them. Gosh, I have had more heated
> >debates within my own family as well as close friends. I think you
> >have a pretty good idea on my postions if you were able to get to
> >most of my posts. Though I disagreed with you and others on various
> >ideas, please understand that I have nothing against you or others
> >pesonally. If you people were in my vacinity now I would shake
hands
> >and buy you some rounds.
> >
> >For those Christians who might have been offended just remember
that
> >we are instructed to love our enemies, those that disagree, speak
ill
> >of us etc. Lets start then by acting as such and letting cool heads
> >prevail. There are tons of things to accomplish in Nova Roma and we
> >all have to support one another and work as brothers and sisters.
> >
> >Yours respectfully,
> >
> >Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> >
> >
> > > I feel moved to write this letter for all the honorable
citizens of
> > > this list who may be christians.
> > >
> > > Please accept my most heartfelt apologies for any offence you
may
> > > have taken from my posts.
> > >
> > > Let me state clearly my stance towards christianity as it exists
> >now,
> > > and as I feel about it in regards to history.
> > >
> > > I respect your decision to be christian, and my only rebuke to
> > > christians, ancient or modern, is that they feel (or felt) the
need
> > > to forcibly change the beliefs of others, to mock the Gods of
> >others,
> > > and that they broke the laws of the Ancient world in their own
> > > zealous way.
> > >
> > > I respect the Cult of Christos as what ammounts to another
> > > manifestation of the Eternal Lysios, or redeemer. I consider the
> > > Christos concept to be another embodiment of Holy Dionysos, and
its
> > > mysteries as part of a hallowed pagan tradition of dying and
> > > resurrected Gods that long pre-dates the life of the semi-
> >historical
> > > man named "Jesus".
> > >
> > > If christians in ancient Rome had prayed to Christ and lived
their
> > > lives without berating the Roman Gods, and the Traditional
> >religion,
> > > and had believed as they wished without attacking and trying to
> > > change others, Rome would have had no problem with them and nor
> >would
> > > I. The Genuis of the Emperor was a holy concept; it was part of
the
> > > glue that held Rome together. To attack that (which the early
> > > christians did) is an attack on the fabric of the State. The
Romans
> > > were right not to allow it to happen publically.
> > >
> > > For the christians who maturely carry on the personal worship of
> >the
> > > Christos, I have nothing but respect. I even see the beauty and
> > > nobility in the self-sacrifice and the love teachings of the
> >Christos.
> > >
> > > But when people upset the natural and holy rights of others to
> > > believe as they see fit, to believe as their hallowed ancestors
> >did,
> > > especially when those beliefs were not harming anyone else and
were
> > > not against the common law of the people, then there is no
> > > justification.
> > >
> > > For all the christians here who see and respect the powerful
> >Harmony
> > > and Truth of the rightness of multiplicity in spiritual
expression,
> > > and whose worship of Christ or the Hebrew God does not interfere
> >with
> > > others, I offer you kinship and respect.
> > >
> > > For those of any era who feel the need to destory others'
beliefs,
> >or
> > > who truly think that only their religion or God is the proper
one
> >for
> > > all people, I stand fast and will see that they are not
allowed to
> > > repeat history and defame and dishonor the Gods of Rome, or any
> >other
> > > differing belief system.
> > >
> > > The Divine Mysteries are so great as to be nearly impossible to
> > > comprehend; a magnificent multiplicity within the hearts of all
> > > people is how they express themselves. That is holy. Evangelism
and
> > > absolutism is wrong. Syncretism and Variety is correct, as
shown to
> > > us by Nature, the Greatest of all Divinities- She shows us grand
> > > variety in her bosom every day, both in the body of Nature and
in
> >the
> > > hearts and minds of men and women. Those who try to limit that
are
> > > the wicked of this world.
> > >
> > >
> > > May the Magna Mater fill you all with her abundance.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > GVT
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	"Diotima Mortifera Plutona" <diotima@veilofnight.org>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:52:06 -0500

Animal sacrifice exists in more religions than just Islam. Many Latin/South American & Caribbean traditions, as well as ATR, call for animal sacrifice. In the case of Vodou, at least, it is done swiftly and humanely. No worse than being slaughtered in a slaughterhouse (indeed, it would seem a great deal better).
That said I personally haven't the stomach for it. But I can't say I have an ethical objection to it if the sacrifice is done in as humane a manner as possible.

And every now and again you hear of human sacrifices, usually by cults that have perverted pure religions, such as Hindu ritual killings, etc.

Diotima Mortifera Plutona, aka Rev. Dina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Bacchanalian supression
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:06:39 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Please citizens, lets not let this argument degrade any worse than
it already has. Lest we forget (and in doing so sanitize history)
that the ancients also had book burnings (during or after the
Bacchanalian suppression) and persecuted other Pagans during the
Bacchanalian (sp.) crises during the 180's bce. Lets we forget the
xenophobic reactions some Romans had towards the Greeks and their
influence.


Respected One,

I second the notion that this discussion should not degrade from this
point; as it is, I have only felt anger from one of my oponents in
this discussion, and I have said my peace. There are no hard feelings.

However, in regards to your statement about the supression of the
Bacchanals, I would like to point out that the Senate only made this
extreme move after numerous complaints were brought forth as to the
excessive nature of the Bacchanalians- they were apparently accused
of stealing and destroying property and livestock in their revels.
This easily qualifies for Law breaking and disturbing the peace and
the safety of the citizens of Rome. Their reaction was therefore
justified, in my opinion. The law and the peace must be protected.
Crisis times always amount to a loss of some liberties in the name of
protecting the common good; again, hard to blame the government that
had such a huge responsibility for the welfare of so many.

Do recall, as I am sure that you do, that the supression of the
Bacchals was only in Rome and on the Italic Peninsula; it continued
in other provinces.


GVT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:24:46 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
> Two points.
> 1.) Any Muslam who results to theft for a sacrifical
> victim has insulted Islam. Hopefully the authorities
> will catch at least some of the thieves so they can
> spend the next Ramadan in prison.


I'll drink to that.



> 2.) Any who know me are well aware that I'm no friend
> of the Muslams, However If GAIA insists on interfering
> with a ritiual that has been part of Islam since it's
> founding, I Hope they sue GAIA and it's suporters into
> bankruptcy.



Well, I'm not so sure here. I certainly am no friend to Islam, but I
will say that I believe that we have a new responsibility in the
modern day, in regards to how we view and treat life- all life.


Where animal sacrifices may have been necesarry or appropriate in the
past, I think that perhaps the intervening centuries have created a
world in which resources are not nearly as scarce, and where people
live longer, fuller lives- and the ideals of humanity and
civilization have taken root in most places. Preserving life is now a
holy ideal, which demands as much patience, fortitude, and discipline
as taking the lives of animals ever did in the past.


In the play "Titus Andronicus", Titus sacrifices the eldest son of
the Queen of the Goths, Tamera- and he does so basically because
tradition demands it. It is done before the queen's eyes, as she
pitifully begs for her sons life- in vain. Her final rebuke, through
tears, is "Oh, Cruel, Irreligious Piety!"


What Tamera meant was that nothing is more ignoble than cruelty that
is done in the name of an empty piety, which may be (and which she
believed was) based on empty ritual performance, devoid of any
meaning that it may have once had. In this case, it cost her son's
life, but as it is done today, it costs the no less precious lives of
animals.


I have a hard time believing that anyone in the modern world who
isn't raised around animals, and who sees T.V., and has fast food for
lunch, and a laptop computer, and drives everywhere in a car, REALLY
has much of a meaningful connection to the past in which slitting an
animal's throat for the Gods (or God) was done. I think that those
who could claim such a connection to the organic necessities of life,
and who still had a living religious tradition that demanded blood
sacrifice, are few and far between.


I think that we need to embrace preservation of life as a greater,
more meaningful virue than taking life for the Gods- because we are
blessed and priveledged to be able to take care of life and have more
easy access to life-giving resources in the modern day, than our
ancestors ever could or did.


I have no real love for Islam; I cannot help but think that some
people cutting the throats of animals in the modern day because a
holy book tells them to is anything other than cruel, empty piety. In
the few instances where I am wrong, I fully support those people, and
I hope that the beasts that are killed will find their rest swiftly
in the bosom of the world below, and find permenant freedom from this
suffering.


In closing, allow me to quote Queen Tamera again, from that same
drama- she tells Titus "Sweet mercy is nobiliy's true badge!" I have
to say, I totally agree. Mercy for the animals whom the Koran says to
kill would show true virtue and nobility, in my eyes, in this modern
day. The world changes. People change. We have the power and the
right to re-define the technical points of "sacrifice", to bring it
more in line with our new visions of our world, and our new
understandings. Anyone who has experienced the power of symbolism
knows that symbolic sacrifices, done rightly, have the same power as
what they represent. You show refinement and humanity by sparing
lifeblood in exchange for symbolic offerings.


Life is sacred. Its precious. I find more honor in its preservation
than in its taking- and I would also like to say that the main reason
why it was more appropriate then and not so much now is because a pig
or a game hen was a vital, important thing to our ancestors in a way
that it is not so vital now- it would be a bigger, more meaningful
sacrifice for me to give up one of my personal belongings or personal
habits or to devote myself to higher standards, than to just kill an
anonymous animal.


GVT

Subject:	Quintilianus & Re: [Nova-Roma] Argument
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:12:03 +0100

Salve Honorable Caius Minucius Scaevola, Amice!

If You are into Rhetorics, may I recommend the "teacher" in Rhetoric,
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus (35 A.D. - app. 100 A.D.). This "ancestor"
of mine wrote the "Institutio oratoria" a very interesting book about
pedagogics, rhetorics and over-all education, which I am reading in a
selected version, and it really is interesting! ;-)

>On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 07:03:03PM -0000, Quintus Lanius Paulinus wrote:
>> Salvete Omnes,
>
>Salve, Q. Lanius Paulinus!
>
>> Having said all that, I would like to request that the Academy of
>> Thules put on a course on Rhetoric and include the fundementals of
>> logic as well. I would love a great review course because it is so
>> easy for any of us to walk into these fallacies. To talk like Cicero
>> would be great! - mind you he did lose his head and hands eventually
>> for getting to personal in his arguments.
>
>This is probably the best suggestion to come out of this thread... not
>that I didn't find the (fairly early) informational content interesting,
>but seeing a somewhat acrimonious discussion turned into an idea for an
>educational opportunity is a treat. Especially since I've often wished
>for a structured - although not necessarily formal - exposure to
>Rhetoric and Logic both.
>
>Well done!
>
>
>Vale,
>Caius Minucius Scaevola
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
>Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing
>crumbles.
> -- Sallust, "Jugurtha"
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
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http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
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